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Nazbaque
03-14-2012, 02:37 PM
I know I'm going to be burned forever for bringing this up again, but since it's me that's not really different from what my day to day life would be anyway.

I've been away for a great while and am way too lazy to track down other Asmodean threads so someone might well have posted all that I am going to say now.

Anyway, since I first read the series I assumed that Lanfear had made the three wishes resulting in her death as well as Asmodean's and her decrease in strength was some sort of side effect. I went through a whole lot of other suspects from the Forsaken to Mat and Aviendha, but even when there was a possible motive it seemed farfetched and certainly far from obvious.

The only obvious motive beside Lanfear's was Moiraine's and I actually found it more satisfying as Rand had somehow escaped Lanfear's wrath. I chose Lanfear because I assumed her to have died because she had made the wishes and Moiraine to be alive because she hadn't.

This was changed by TOM when it was revealed that Lanfear's death was an accident and more importantly Moiraine had made the wishes. I am certain that at least one of the wishes enabled her to kill Asmodean.

How this happened is open to a wide range of possibilities depending on how powerfull the Eelfinn are in granting wishes, but the most satisfying scenario is this: Moiraine's two other wishes were to let her go to Tel'aran'rhiod and to pull Asmodean there after which she balefired him. The snags are as I said whether or not the Eelfinn can do this and what happened to Asmodean's body.

I can't offer proof of the Eelfinn's powers but I don't think TAR related abilities are unreasonable assumptions. With Asmodean's body there are three possibilities: 1) The Eelfinn could actually pull him into TAR in the flesh, 2) Getting balefired in TAR also destroys your body and 3) Asmodean's body was simply disposed of among the other bodies that resulted from the fight in Caemlyn either by mistake or by darkfriends. The third possibility is by far the simplest especially if you assume the corpse to be somewhat singed if not actually destroyed by the TAR balefire. The second leans heavily on assumption though it is not an unreasonable one. The first I find least likely to be possible, but if possible most likely to be true.

So there you have it. My final take on the death of Asmodean. It may well be that this has already been brought up and you have discussed it to the point of wanting to puke, but I'm posting this anyway in hopes that there is at least something others haven't said before now.

Davian93
03-14-2012, 03:07 PM
Graendal did it and it was confirmed by Brandon, the glossary of ToM and everyone else.

Fin.

Terez
03-14-2012, 03:18 PM
I can't offer proof of the Eelfinn's powers but I don't think TAR related abilities are unreasonable assumptions.
You might should consider exploring the question in the interview database.

Seth Baker
03-14-2012, 03:41 PM
Graendal did it and it was confirmed by Brandon, the glossary of ToM and everyone else.

Fin.

He was right - gonna get burned for that one. When it's unequivocally answered by something between the covers...

Nazbaque
03-14-2012, 03:47 PM
TOM Glossary.... Ooooh the burning fires of embarrassment. That's what I get for skippin on Glossaries and taking two year vacations from TL. There goes all the cred I had and all I didn't have too. But I like my solution better. And Graendal is hardly obvious.

EDIT: I nominate myself for the most embarrassing deed in the history of TL contest.

Ishara
03-14-2012, 03:57 PM
LOL - good try, though! I hated the idea of Graedal doing it, and still haven't heard a scenario that I like enough to endorse, but given her PoV and the glossary, I'm stuck with this fact and its implications. Alas.

Nazbaque
03-14-2012, 04:01 PM
Not even mine? Awwwwwwww

The Unreasoner
03-14-2012, 04:09 PM
The funniest thing is that aside from the threads he was 'to lazy' to dig up, the answer is right on theoryland.com (http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/theoryland.com). The homepage.

Seth Baker
03-14-2012, 04:21 PM
Yeah, I agree that I don't like it - it got all built up and the answer was not some nifty justification, just, "OH BTW ASMODEAN" in the glossary.

But it doesn't matter THAT much to me.

Davian93
03-14-2012, 04:21 PM
The funniest thing is that aside from the threads he was 'to lazy' to dig up, the answer is right on theoryland.com (http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/theoryland.com). The homepage.

We have a homepage?

Nazbaque
03-14-2012, 04:38 PM
The funniest thing is that aside from the threads he was 'to lazy' to dig up, the answer is right on theoryland.com (http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/theoryland.com). The homepage.
No you don't you filthy son of sands! I may have shamed myself to the core but no-one can claim that I ever use 'to' instead of 'too'!

*Sets himself on fire*

Now take it back or you won't get a marshmallow!

*Roasts marshmallows*

EDIT: And when I say "too lazy" I mean "too lazy". That includes checking the homepage (or trying to find it)

eht slat meit
03-14-2012, 04:46 PM
LOL - good try, though! I hated the idea of Graedal doing it, and still haven't heard a scenario that I like enough to endorse, but given her PoV and the glossary, I'm stuck with this fact and its implications. Alas.

Seems pretty likely that as Natael suggested might happen, an opportunity kill, though I wouldn't put it past them to have used Graendal as the extra-person in the plot to clear up that little loose.

Referencing the Graendal-Lanfear-Rahvin-Sammael alliance that Moghedian told Nynaeve about. Lanfear was already out of the picture, and it's not unreasonable to think that Graendal and Sammael might have been in the palace at the time, seeing where the chips fell.

Zombie Sammael
03-14-2012, 05:14 PM
So, what was Asmo doing in between ~the beginning of TGH/end of TEOTW and the point where he turned up with Lanfear in TSR? All the other Forsaken had schemes and plans, societies to infiltrate and nations to conquer. What about Asmo?

The Unreasoner
03-14-2012, 05:28 PM
No you don't you filthy son of sands! I may have shamed myself to the core but no-one can claim that I ever use 'to' instead of 'too'!
To share your shame, I will not edit that post, leaving my typo intact.
We have a homepage?
lol. I guess not, if you click on the link I gave. No idea how that came about.

But, I'll leave that error too.

finnssss
03-14-2012, 05:35 PM
Yeah, I agree that I don't like it - it got all built up and the answer was not some nifty justification, just, "OH BTW ASMODEAN" in the glossary.

But it doesn't matter THAT much to me.

It was only put in the glossary because it was revealed in the Epilogue already.

Tomp
03-14-2012, 05:57 PM
We have a homepage?

Yes we are the fanatics (in theory)

Nazbaque
03-14-2012, 06:01 PM
To share your shame, I will not edit that post, leaving my typo intact.
Good. Now have a marshmallow.

*Looks around*

Hmmm... lots of people who have never tasted marshmallows roasted in my flames.

Dig in everybody! Don't be shy!

*Eats a marshmallow*

Ooooh my shame adds to the flavor!

Seth Baker
03-14-2012, 06:14 PM
It was only put in the glossary because it was revealed in the Epilogue already.

What I mean to say is that the revelation doesn't appear to have any purpose in the narrative except as a curio, at which point I question why it was made into such a big deal in the first place.

Grig
03-14-2012, 06:31 PM
What I mean to say is that the revelation doesn't appear to have any purpose in the narrative except as a curio, at which point I question why it was made into such a big deal in the first place.

Same reason that "mice and figs" works. Fans make up explanations more crazy and convoluted than RJ ever would have (See: Two Servants theory - I was a fan). RJ never gave any indication that "Who Killed Asmo" was a big deal, he just liked messing with fans and thought it was obvious enough. He also might have wanted to leave himself leeway in case he wanted to use that subplot later, which is a reason not to come out and say it, or to write it in just to have it written in and established.

finnssss
03-14-2012, 07:19 PM
Same reason that "mice and figs" works. Fans make up explanations more crazy and convoluted than RJ ever would have (See: Two Servants theory - I was a fan). RJ never gave any indication that "Who Killed Asmo" was a big deal, he just liked messing with fans and thought it was obvious enough. He also might have wanted to leave himself leeway in case he wanted to use that subplot later, which is a reason not to come out and say it, or to write it in just to have it written in and established.

Exactly. Personally, I was never all that concerned over who killed him. It was just a matter of time before someone got him and I was/am more concerned with things that still meant something like the identity of Mesaana and location/identity/proxy of Demandred.

Grig
03-14-2012, 07:26 PM
Incidentally, the theory up on theoryland.com right now really makes a good case as to why Jordan thought it was obvious. I hadn't thought about it that way before, but we have two Forsaken who have spent time in Arad Doman. The Forsaken aren't known for roaming, they all went one place and established a solid power base. One of those that were in Arad Doman goes rogue, then turns up dead. Huh, how can that not seem obvious?

Seeker
03-14-2012, 07:35 PM
Did we know that Graendel was in Arad Domon at that point?

And what's more, I think the reason the mystery lasted as long as it did is that the answer really doesn't make any sense.

Seth Baker
03-14-2012, 07:52 PM
Did we know that Graendel was in Arad Domon at that point?

And what's more, I think the reason the mystery lasted as long as it did is that the answer really doesn't make any sense.

Asmodean mentioned that the last he'd seen Graendal she was in Arad Doman, but then suggested she'd probably moved at that point.

Tomp
03-14-2012, 07:57 PM
In LoC chapter 23

Graendal talks to Sammael. She says basically straight out that Asmodean is dead.

How does she know if she didn't kill him?

Tomp
03-14-2012, 08:02 PM
BTW

In tGS when they have Semirhage prisoner.
Why don't Rand do what he did to Asmodean in tSR?
Cut her off from DO.
That would crush her, the other forsaken wouldn't trust her and DO maybe couldn't respawn her

finnssss
03-14-2012, 08:16 PM
BTW

In tGS when they have Semirhage prisoner.
Why don't Rand do what he did to Asmodean in tSR?
Cut her off from DO.
That would crush her, the other forsaken wouldn't trust her and DO maybe couldn't respawn her

Only the male Forsaken had those "cords". It was protection from the taint on Saidin.

Seeker
03-14-2012, 08:28 PM
In LoC chapter 23

Graendal talks to Sammael. She says basically straight out that Asmodean is dead.

How does she know if she didn't kill him?

Right, because characters never state with conviction things that are flat-out wrong.

Healing stilling is impossible, you know.

Strength in the Power is equally distributed among men and women. Moiraine told us as much.

Only the Creator could have cleansed the taint from saidin. Oh, Rand al'Thor might say otherwise but Logain knows better.


Remember when Ishamael teased Rand about blowing the Horn of Valere? Bit of a reveal there because that's when Rand figured out that the Forsaken weren't all knowing.

I could list other examples but I saw no reason to take Graendel seriously.

Tomp
03-14-2012, 08:55 PM
I didn't react to it until after it was revealed in ToM. Then when I did a re-read I spotted it.

I agree that it wasn't obvious and that many characters have wrong assumptions around things.

As they say assumption starts out with an ass.

(And no, I am not calling anyone an ass)

Greycon
10-25-2012, 01:21 PM
Are you kidding me???

The one time I buy the audio book they uncover who killed Asmo in the fricken appendix!!!

The wheel weaves as the wheel weaves.

GonzoTheGreat
10-25-2012, 01:30 PM
The term for that is: HAFO.

Greycon
10-25-2012, 02:23 PM
Wait a second, It does not say she killed him, it says she's responsible for his death. She could have had him knocked off for her.

"A ruthless killer, she was responsible for the deaths of Aran'gar and Asmodean and for the destruction of Mesaana."

Zombie Sammael
10-25-2012, 04:50 PM
Wait a second, It does not say she killed him, it says she's responsible for his death. She could have had him knocked off for her.

"A ruthless killer, she was responsible for the deaths of Aran'gar and Asmodean and for the destruction of Mesaana."

Graendal admits it was her in person in TOM.

Greycon
10-25-2012, 05:28 PM
Wow, I missed that. Do you happen to know when it occurred? Not saying I doubt you, but I would like to check it out. Has Branding flat out said the she killed him? She did not kill Aran'gar per say. She is however responsible for his death. I have to wonder if there is some word play going on.

Great Lord of the Dark
10-25-2012, 09:35 PM
I like theorists who hang on long past the point of no return. Reminds me of me.

To your very correct and yet to be disproved theory Nazbaque, I can only say that theories relying on wishes are icky. Too contrived. However I agree about with your concept about what could cocnceivably be within the limits of Aelfinn and Eelfinn ability. I used the same logic regarding the Dark One for my own very correct and yet to be disproven theory that Moridin killed Asmodean.

Cheers!

Cabadrin
10-26-2012, 03:55 AM
In LoC chapter 23

Graendal talks to Sammael. She says basically straight out that Asmodean is dead.

Not a clincher. Graendal said last time they met that she thought Rand had killed her. After that her eyes-and-ears had not heard or seen him, so she regarded her theory as proven: Rand had killed him when he had no further use for him, that's what she would have done.
The real questions remain: why didn't she boast, and what would she be doing in the kitchen. She, too, thirsty after the battle?

But it only matters if it matters, otherwise why care? It's not as if he didn't deserve it.

yks 6nnetu hing
10-26-2012, 04:47 AM
Wow, I missed that. Do you happen to know when it occurred? Not saying I doubt you, but I would like to check it out. Has Branding flat out said the she killed him? She did not kill Aran'gar per say. She is however responsible for his death. I have to wonder if there is some word play going on.

It's a bit ambiguous (though a pretty clear reference) in the text itself, but it's spelled out in no uncertain terms in the glossary of... either GS or ToM, though now I can't remember if it was unde Asmodean or Graendal...

GonzoTheGreat
10-26-2012, 04:57 AM
There isn't an Asmodean section there, so it was under Graendal. But the relevant bit has already been quoted by Zombie Sammael, and it still leaves some uncertainty. Or at least, it leaves room for quibbling.

Greycon
10-29-2012, 10:55 AM
There's just to much room for word play in it. Aran'gar was not killed by Graendal, he was killed by Rands Balefire. Graendal may be responsible for his death, but she did not kill him. So, with so much flexibility in the statement, She could have had somebody knock him off.

Dom
10-29-2012, 06:17 PM
Beside the reveal of the culprit, an episode of TGS very likely reveal to us humorously the circumstances of the murder, either this was conceived by RJ in the ouline or Brandon who's read the notes about the murder decided to do that (he's aware of the way RJ loved to repeat patterns for scenes, and had fun remixing the elements upside down).

In TGS to find Graendal Nyaneve goes straight to the servant's pantry in a palace Rand had recently thrown the occupant out of (yes, a pantry in the sense of a room for servants to store very commonly requested items, e.g.: some wine, tea etc. is established in WOT), sat down and asked servants to bring her the first maid (well, the equivalent). She hoped the woman would put her on the trail of spies of Graendal. That lead Nyaneve to a compelled agent, she unravelled his compulsion and died after saying just two words "Natrin's Barrow". Then Rand went and balefired Graendal massively with the CK, and Aran'gar was in the wrong place in the wrong time and got set up by Graendal.

Asmodean's murder:

Graendal came to Caemlyn in the wake of Rhavin's death. Asmodean knew her hiding place, and since Lanfear's plan obviously had backfired and Rand wasn't going for the planned target, Graendal had to come and try to get spies near Rand who could report to her. In truth, she probably already had someone spying for her on Rahvin.

Who's the best person in the palace to know everything, who has access to all the servants and can ask them questions, as she's expected to need to know all that goes on? Renee Harfor, who like other servants had rooms in the servant quarters.

Graendal went to a servants's pantry/common room, sat down and asked servants to fetch her Renee Harfor. She was perhaps even known in the palace, as a infrequent guest of Gaebril (it's not important) She would give the woman new compelled instructions about spying on Rand (and reporting to we-don't-know who... Graendal had so many spies she can't possibly have been handling their reporting herself).

Before or after or during her meeting with Renee (it doesn't matter, Graendal would have compelled anyone present to forget everything forever), Asmodean opened the door to that servant common room/hall to the quarters etc. Graendal killed him with a very very small amount of balefire. She couldn't remove more than seconds, for the fear of being detected and because for all she knew Asmodean had interacted with Rand a minute ago. But Asmodean was too far from SG, the DO didn't managed it.

Graendal then opened a gateway to a transit place, then as she wasn't pursued she went back home. She got her spies in the palace observing Rand (as she seemed to have had in all his "lairs" as the series progressed), he never came for her. She went to the DO, reporting to him she had gone to Caemlyn and dealt with the traitor, no point telling him it was an accident/roadkill.

Figbiscuit
10-30-2012, 09:02 AM
Exactly. Personally, I was never all that concerned over who killed him. It was just a matter of time before someone got him and I was/am more concerned with things that still meant something like the identity of Mesaana and location/identity/proxy of Demandred.

Taim :rolleyes:

Yellowbeard
10-30-2012, 01:17 PM
If I ever had to write a screen play for WoT, I'd change Asmo's killer from Graendal to Taim. Taim's motive would be Asmo would be able to identify him to Rand as Moridin's lackey so would have to be removed. Taim would basically be replacing Asmo at Rand's side.

Makes so much more sense and is a lot more satisfying than simply Graendal stumbling onto him by chance.

GonzoTheGreat
10-30-2012, 01:25 PM
Makes so much more sense and is a lot more satisfying than simply Graendal stumbling onto him by chance.
Nitpick: Asmodean stumbled upon Graendal, not the other way around.
Not sure that overcomes all your objections to the lack of neatness, but then, reality isn't always neat.