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Tollingtoy
03-17-2012, 10:16 AM
I'm curious about your thoughts on this. As I'm rereading LOC, I've noticed that he doesn't get mentioned by the Dark One and others when dead Forsaken are discussed. Asmodean and Rahvin are both mentioned often, but never Be'lal. Actually, I don't really recall him being mentioned in any of the books after TDR (not positive on this though). Why do you think this might be?

Davian93
03-17-2012, 10:26 AM
Because Rahvin and Asmo dying were current events while Be'lal's death was old news at that point. They had already likely discussed it off-screen months before.

Landro
03-17-2012, 01:49 PM
Some people think that Moiraine's Balefire was weak enough that the DO could still grab Be'lal's soul.

Frenzy
03-17-2012, 02:28 PM
Some people also think Taim is Demandred. It's so precious.

You'll notice that Bathamel, Aginor , and Lanfear are also not mentioned. Probably to not draw attention to the fact that they're not currently dead.

Perhaps nobody acknowledging mentioning Be'lal is because he did the equivalent of tripping over a banana peel. I mean, c'mon, he was killed by a weak little child of a so-called Aes Sedai. How embarrassing is that for the dark side?

Nazbaque
03-17-2012, 02:52 PM
I'm curious about your thoughts on this. As I'm rereading LOC, I've noticed that he doesn't get mentioned by the Dark One and others when dead Forsaken are discussed. Asmodean and Rahvin are both mentioned often, but never Be'lal. Actually, I don't really recall him being mentioned in any of the books after TDR (not positive on this though). Why do you think this might be?
He is mentioned in KOD. "Sammael and Asmodean had to be as dead as Be'lal and Rahvin." - Aran'gar

Terez
03-17-2012, 03:15 PM
Be'lal didn't do anything. He's the least developed of all the Forsaken.

Nazbaque
03-17-2012, 03:32 PM
Well if you count Balthamel and Aran'gar as separate characters then Balthamel is even less developed. But even if you don't you'll have to admit that Be'lal at least managed to get an alter ego unlike Demandred and his High Lord persona was much better than Asmodean's gleeman persona or Moghedien's maid persona.

Terez
03-17-2012, 03:58 PM
Well if you count Balthamel and Aran'gar as separate characters
I don't.

professorskar
03-17-2012, 11:45 PM
Well if you count Balthamel and Aran'gar as separate characters then Balthamel is even less developed.

I disagree. At least we knew ONE thing about Balthamel's personality (he liked the ladies), what do we know about Be'lal besides he was called Netweaver? The guy had zero character traits.

Seth Baker
03-17-2012, 11:47 PM
I disagree. At least we knew ONE thing about Balthamel's personality (he liked the ladies), what do we know about Be'lal besides he was called Netweaver? The guy had zero character traits.

He was an old blademaster who died like a dog? :D

Nazbaque
03-18-2012, 12:13 AM
Envious of LTT plus the Forsaken. All of them. Bragged endlessly about beating LTT in a game of stones once.

Terez
03-18-2012, 12:57 AM
Developed the martial art of swords along with Lews Therin. Was a lawyer. Etc.

Seth Baker
03-18-2012, 01:01 AM
Developed the martial art of swords along with Lews Therin. Was a lawyer. Etc.

Doesn't seem like a bad guy, come to think about it!

Oden
03-18-2012, 08:32 AM
Hasn't anyone asked BS about Be'lal? I've been thinking about his role for quite a while but there isn't much said. This leads me to believe that the puny balefire from the half trained so-called Aes Sedai wasn't enough for the DO to not be able to reincarnate Ba'lal's soul

Seth Baker
03-18-2012, 10:03 AM
If the Dark One can't reach back a few minutes to grab one soul, why should he be able to reach back a few seconds to grab another? The only reasonable distinction I see is between "killed by balefire" and "not."

Terez
03-18-2012, 01:31 PM
If the Dark One can't reach back a few minutes to grab one soul, why should he be able to reach back a few seconds to grab another? The only reasonable distinction I see is between "killed by balefire" and "not."
Unfortunately, RJ gave a very small window (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=4#3).

Seth Baker
03-18-2012, 03:31 PM
Unfortunately, RJ gave a very small window (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=4#3).

Right, I remember seeing that before. I've basically read the whole interview database, but some things escape me sometimes.

One of those situations where you have to question whether RJ was answering hypothetically or for story purposes. You have to think that if Be'lal was going to make another appearance by the Dark One's transmigration power, (A) it would happen at around the same time as Moridin/Aran'gar/Osan'gar; or at least (B) he would have RAFOed the question.

Terez
03-18-2012, 04:09 PM
Yeah, I'm thinking that 'very small' refers more to the type of balefire that Rand used on the Shadowspawn after he killed Rahvin. Moiraine's might have only been worth a few seconds, but it was surely stronger than that.

AbbeyRoad
03-18-2012, 04:47 PM
I always had a soft spot for Be'lal for some odd reason. He was the most bold of the Forsaken, and came the closest to really wreaking havoc on the Light. While everyone else was developing a power base at a snail's pace, Be'lal ruled Tear, managed to goad Rand into taking Callandor, and probably would have both killed Rand and taken the sa'angreal if he didn't fall victim to the oldest evil villain trope in the book... standing and talking about how the Light was so puny and insignificant while letting Moiraine walk right up to him and pull the trigger, so to speak. But at least he had a plan came pretty close to accomplishing it. He was indirectly responsible for capturing the supergirls, too. He accomplished more as a Forsaken in his limited screen time than some others I could mention who had development spread out over numerous books.

Figbiscuit
03-20-2012, 10:28 AM
Some people also think Taim is Demandred. It's so precious.

Hush your mouth! :eek:

eht slat meit
03-20-2012, 02:20 PM
I always had a soft spot for Be'lal for some odd reason. He was the most bold of the Forsaken, and came the closest to really wreaking havoc on the Light. While everyone else was developing a power base at a snail's pace, Be'lal ruled Tear, managed to goad Rand into taking Callandor, and probably would have both killed Rand and taken the sa'angreal if he didn't fall victim to the oldest evil villain trope in the book... standing and talking about how the Light was so puny and insignificant while letting Moiraine walk right up to him and pull the trigger, so to speak. But at least he had a plan came pretty close to accomplishing it.

Out of curiosity, at what point is Be'lal believed to have been freed from the DO's prison? Beginning of the same book?

Seth Baker
03-20-2012, 02:50 PM
Given that he didn't age, like Lanfear, Sammael, Rahvin, etc., probably at about the same time - near the beginning of The Great Hunt.

NaeffOfDreams
03-25-2012, 12:18 PM
Has the possibility of Taim = Be'lal been discussed here? Or disproved outright in interviews? It would jive with a lot of Taim's 2nd Age tendencies better than some other theories, my own 14th Chosen theory included.

Seth Baker
03-25-2012, 12:41 PM
Doubtful.

None of the Forsaken know that Osan’gar (Corlan Dashiva) is dead, but they know he’s vanished. They are pretty much sure that Sammael is dead, because he isn’t the type to remain in hiding, but think Asmodean might well be hiding out until he can figure a way to return safely. They know that Rahvin and Be’lal are dead, though some at least suspect reincarnation as Aran’gar and Osan’gar. Most have worked out that Moridin is Ishamael.

The Dark One plays some things fairly close to the chest, but I doubt he reincarnated Be'lal and didn't tell Moridin.

The Angry Druid
03-25-2012, 02:07 PM
Right, I remember seeing that before. I've basically read the whole interview database, but some things escape me sometimes.

One of those situations where you have to question whether RJ was answering hypothetically or for story purposes. You have to think that if Be'lal was going to make another appearance by the Dark One's transmigration power, (A) it would happen at around the same time as Moridin/Aran'gar/Osan'gar; or at least (B) he would have RAFOed the question.

Isn't it obvious? Taim is Be'lal!

That's why Taim now moves with somewhat of a Warder's deadly grace. :)

Terez
03-25-2012, 08:45 PM
Must also be why Taim has such a great respect for swordfighting...

GonzoTheGreat
03-26-2012, 05:32 AM
Must also be why Taim has such a great respect for swordfighting...
Correction: claims to have such a great respect for it.

It is of course possible that Be'lal had been dishonest with Rand, and didn't think that using swords was very sophisticated after all. Lanfear was rather contemptuous of that Power Sword too, you may remember, but then, she's an honest and upright gal.

Terez
03-26-2012, 05:47 AM
Correction: claims to have such a great respect for it.
Does he? Because I was being completely facetious.
Rand looked around. "Where’s Haslin? Not drunk again? I told you, he’s only to have wine at night." Henre Haslin had been Master of the Sword for the Queen’s Guards, in charge of training recruits, until Rahvin began remaking the Guards, discarding everyone faithful to Morgase or sending them off to fight in Cairhien. Too old for campaigning, Haslin had been handed his pension and shown the gate, and when news of Morgase’s death spread through Caemlyn, he crawled into a winejar. But he thought Rahvin – Gaebril, to him – had killed Morgase, not Rand, and he could teach. When he was sober.

"I sent him away," Taim said. "What good are swords?" Another rock exploded. "I can barely avoid stabbing myself, and I’ve never felt the lack. They have the Power, now."

Kill him! Kill him now! Lews Therin’s voice echoed hollowly through the Void. Rand stamped the echo out, but he could not stamp out the anger that suddenly seemed a shell around the emptiness containing him. The Void kept his voice drained of emotion, though. "Find him, Taim, and bring him back. Tell him you have changed your mind. Tell the students that. Tell them whatever you choose, but I want him here, giving lessons every day. They need to be part of the world, not apart from it. What are they supposed to do if they can’t channel? When you were shielded by the Aes Sedai, you might still have escaped if you knew how to use a sword, how to fight with your hands."

"I did escape. Here I am."

"Some of your followers broke you free, so I heard, else you’d have ended up in Tar Valon like Logain, gentled. These men won’t have followers. Find Haslin."

The other man bowed smoothly. "As my Lord Dragon commands. Was that what brought my Lord Dragon here? Haslin and swords?" The merest hint of contempt tinged his voice, but Rand ignored it.

It is of course possible that Be'lal had been dishonest with Rand, and didn't think that using swords was very sophisticated after all. Lanfear was rather contemptuous of that Power Sword too, you may remember, but then, she's an honest and upright gal.
I see no reason to believe he wasn't a sportsman like he claimed. Though it appears that Sammael was the one to make a career out of it. Be'lal was a lawyer.

GonzoTheGreat
03-26-2012, 05:55 AM
Does he? Because I was being completely facetious.
Good, innit?


I see no reason to believe he wasn't a sportsman like he claimed. Though it appears that Sammael was the one to make a career out of it. Be'lal was a lawyer.
It is possible that Be'lal would have preferred the kind of fight that Rand and Lanfear had on the docks Cairhien, but didn't dare do that, because if he killed the bumpkin too soon, then he would never get his hands on Callandor.

So Be'lal was undoubtedly good with swords, but he might still consider them rather useless for serious fights. And Taim may consider them useless for serious fights, but still be good with them.

NaeffOfDreams
03-26-2012, 11:34 AM
Fair enough, Terez. Forgot about Taim's disdain for swordsmanship. I know I can always count on you to think of / remember what I haven't.

Weiramon
03-26-2012, 12:51 PM
Taim's 2nd Age tendencies

Burn my soul, it's not as though there is any evidence of anyone who wielded large amounts of Saidin taking on the speech and mannerisms of someone from another Age.

No, Lord Taim is Lord Taim, a faithful follower of the Lord Dragon who has obeyed him at all times. Unfortunately, those who are most faithful to the Lord Dragon are often unjustly accused of going over to the Shadow.

Seth Baker
03-26-2012, 05:32 PM
Wait, are you implying that Taim too has his Second Age self talking inside his head?

Terez
03-26-2012, 05:57 PM
Just that there are bits which have caused people to believe that Taim was a Forsaken in disguise, some of which were apparent 2nd Age tendencies, including his use of the phrase 'so-called Aiel'. Of course, it's not like 3rd-Agers can't speak a little Old Tongue and don't know what the word means. But it's usually 2nd-Agers (and clan chiefs and Wise Ones) who know what the Aiel used to be. Hence Taimandred and Mazridin and what have you. Though there is a theory that he was trained by Ishamael before he declared himself, and there's room for that, of course.

Davian93
03-26-2012, 06:37 PM
Dont we have RJ comments stating that Taim is no older than 30?

Wouldnt that preclude any sort of 2nd Age/Forsaken act?

Being trained by one is definitely possible.

Seth Baker
03-26-2012, 06:52 PM
I'm aware of the theories Terez, but I was responding to Weiramon, who appeared to be implying that Taim had his own personal Lews Therin in his head.

frenchie
03-26-2012, 06:57 PM
You know, I really love Weiramon.

Terez
03-26-2012, 07:00 PM
Dont we have RJ comments stating that Taim is no older than 30?
Lat 20s, but some think that he's Moridin, and Moridin's body might well be in its late 20s. And if someone is using Illusion, then they'll have imitated the real Taim's features.

Weiramon
03-26-2012, 07:32 PM
but I was responding to Weiramon, who appeared to be implying that Taim had his own personal Lews Therin in his head.

Burn my eyes, that's a preposterous suggestion! If that were the case, one would expect such a person to take on notions of another age like scorning the sword, abandoning long held cultural affectations like wearing a beard, and referring to themselves in the third person.