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Cortar
03-24-2012, 08:06 PM
Elayne made Perrin "Rand's steward" in the Two Rivers. Great, but Rand is supposed to die soon and guess who is carrying his babies and plans to marry him? So basically Elayne gave Perrin the Two Rivers for what, a few months at the best? If Elayne cannot take control of them again as wife of the Lord of the Two Rivers (Rand), then surely she will take control of them as the guardian of his children until they are of age.

Kimon
03-24-2012, 08:55 PM
Elayne made Perrin "Rand's steward" in the Two Rivers. Great, but Rand is supposed to die soon and guess who is carrying his babies and plans to marry him? So basically Elayne gave Perrin the Two Rivers for what, a few months at the best? If Elayne cannot take control of them again as wife of the Lord of the Two Rivers (Rand), then surely she will take control of them to control him until his children can.

Tenobia seems unlikely to produce an heir, so Faile, or her children will inherit the throne of Saldaea. And while Perrin did initially balk at Elayne's offer of a pre-emptive engagement between her soon to be born children (or at least one of them) and Perrin's as yet to be conceived, certainly that would nonetheless still make quite a bit of sense. Doubtless Faile will badger him about that until he finally agrees, or, as was the case with Masema, if he is too dumb to ever do the expedient thing, she'll just take care of the arrangements herself.

finn
03-24-2012, 11:18 PM
Elayne made Perrin "Rand's steward" in the Two Rivers. Great, but Rand is supposed to die soon and guess who is carrying his babies and plans to marry him? So basically Elayne gave Perrin the Two Rivers for what, a few months at the best? If Elayne cannot take control of them again as wife of the Lord of the Two Rivers (Rand), then surely she will take control of them to control him until his children can.

Not if Perrin's political authority is legalized with Elayne's proposed understanding of his taxation privileges & exemption. Rand would have to be reborn to call upon the trust administered by Perrin's line, so the Dragon's more of a figurehead. Rand's wife/descendants would not have any claim.

Seth Baker
03-24-2012, 11:31 PM
Not if Perrin's political authority is legalized with Elayne's proposed understanding of his taxation privileges & exemption. Rand would have to be reborn to call upon the trust administered by Perrin's line, so the Dragon's more of a figurehead. Rand's wife/descendants would not have any claim.

That's not how trusts work.

Ann Kalagon
03-24-2012, 11:46 PM
I think she did. She was essentially hostile to Perrin and Faile; Elayne is all about power and control. What the 7 hells has Andor ever done for the Two Rivers? Nothing.

How very little time has she spent on thoughts of why the Pattern spun out three ta'veren from Two Rivers? She's not much on deep thought generally. The significance of Perrin and Mat in the coming Last Battle never even crosses her mind.

It's "all about her" and what she can get all her servants to do for her. If Aes Sedai were originally the servants of all, and Rand's arc politically may work to restore that, what use is Elayne?

finn
03-25-2012, 12:30 AM
That's not how trusts work.

Explain.

Seth Baker
03-25-2012, 12:33 AM
Explain.

To begin with, the right to trust benefits and the trust corpus is inheritable. If Rand is the beneficiary, his children become beneficiaries upon his death, and Elayne is a conservator over their assets while they are minors, so the non-legal analysis that you disagreed with by bringing up legal principles was actually legally correct.

finn
03-25-2012, 12:51 AM
To begin with, the right to trust benefits and the trust corpus is inheritable. If Rand is the beneficiary, his children become beneficiaries upon his death, and Elayne is a conservator over their assets while they are minors, so the non-legal analysis that you disagreed with by bringing up legal principles was actually legally correct.

Could you cite your sources on Andoran trust law or explain how any of this applies to the mechanisms of the trust as proposed by Elayne?

Cortar
03-25-2012, 01:11 AM
Could you cite your sources on Andoran trust law or explain how any of this applies to the mechanisms of the trust as proposed by Elayne?

Well since Elayne is the Queen I would imagine she would be very knowledge with such things, or have advisors who were, and they would draw the trust up so it would work like I suggested.

Furthermore, Andoran common law is much like English common law, which further benefits my argument.

Seth Baker
03-25-2012, 01:23 AM
Could you cite your sources on Andoran trust law or explain how any of this applies to the mechanisms of the trust as proposed by Elayne?

I don't know anything about Andoran trust law. I know a lot about the English and American common laws of Trusts. Incidentally Andor is based on Anglo-Saxon kingdoms and their legal systems appear to track them very closely.

So, could you please cite your source for your assumption that Andoran trust law differs significantly from the law of trusts under the common law?


Well since Elayne is the Queen I would imagine she would be very knowledge with such things, or have advisors who were, and they would draw the trust up so it would work like I suggested.

Furthermore, Andoran common law is much like English common law, which further benefits my argument.

Don't ask him that. This is how this thread and the Perrin tangent in the other thread are progressing:

1. finn makes unsubstantiated claim about how law works.
2. Seth Baker makes statement of how common law works.
3. finn claims that Andor's law operates differently from common law without citing the source of any of his absurd presumptions.

Rand would have to be reborn to call upon the trust.... Rand's wife/descendants would not have any claim.

This is specifically what I'm asking about. This is not how common law operates. Please provide your source.

If you can't point to where in the book RJ wrote some kind of treatise about Andoran trusts and estates, I'm just going to be forced to assume that you're making shit up again.

finn
03-25-2012, 02:09 AM
Well since Elayne is the Queen I would imagine she would be very knowledge with such things, or have advisors who were, and they would draw the trust up so it would work like I suggested.
Since she is Queen, I would imagine that she made her statement about the Two Rivers tax trust in full knowledge of the law or else her proposal would be enacted as a special case.

I don't know anything about Andoran trust law. I know a lot about the English and American common laws of Trusts. Incidentally Andor is based on Anglo-Saxon kingdoms and their legal systems appear to track them very closely.
...
This is specifically what I'm asking about. This is not how common law operates. Please provide your source.

If you can't point to where in the book RJ wrote some kind of treatise about Andoran trusts and estates, I'm just going to be forced to assume that you're making shit up again.
Ok, so you didn't bother to reread the chapter that was the subject of this thread to know the specific lines. But that justifies an attempt to apply irrelevant data onto fictional canon, how?

So, could you please cite your source for your assumption that Andoran trust law differs significantly from the law of trusts under the common law?
Here:
"The taxes," Elayne said as if she hadn't heard. "You put them into a trust to be administered by Perrin and his line, with the understanding that if the Dragon ever returns, he can call upon them. Yes. That gives us a legal excuse for your exemption. Of course, Perrin will have authority to dip into those funds to improve the Two Rivers. Roads, food stores, defenses."


1. finn makes reference about how fictional law works based on statements from canon.
2. Seth Baker makes vague statement of how common law works, assumes it applies to a fictional setting or the scenario in question.
3. finn cites source from canon.
Fixed.

Cortar
03-25-2012, 03:16 AM
Since she is Queen, I would imagine that she made her statement about the Two Rivers tax trust in full knowledge of the law or else her proposal would be enacted as a special case.

??? No, I was saying that she would deceive Perrin by leaving this loophole in (once Rand dies she will receive control of the Two Rivers directly). The passage doesn't fit either side of our argument. Thus its up to idle speculation.


Ok, so you didn't bother to reread the chapter that was the subject of this thread to know the specific lines. But that justifies an attempt to apply irrelevant data onto fictional canon, how?


Like I said, this doesn't prove it either way, EXCEPT she very obviously doesn't say anything about what happens when Rand dies. We all know its going to be soon so I think she specifically misleads Perrin by making it sound like he will have control of the Two Rivers for a while.

GonzoTheGreat
03-25-2012, 04:21 AM
The general assumption seems to be that the Dragon's possessions do not get automatically inherited by his children. In that way, he is more like what the Holy Roman Emperor used to be than like an ordinary king, though obviously he wasn't elected to his post by a bunch of nobles.

Otherwise there might be a war between Andor and the Aiel in the making, over which child precisely inherits the Two Rivers.

Zombie Sammael
03-25-2012, 05:29 AM
Elayne specifically says the taxes are in trust administered by Perrin, which makes him the trustee (the legal term for the administrator of a trust). Rand has the beneficial interest in the trust. Nothing in the text suggests that the trust works any differently from the way it does at English or American Common Law (or, for all I know, any other Common Law), so at the death of the beneficiary, the equitable interest would pass to his heirs, but Perrin's line would retain the legal interest. In fact, the only significant difference between this and a real trust is that it's settled for a period "until the Dragon returns", which breaks the doctrine of limitations of time by making the period indefinite, but I'm not sure that even needs to apply in this case.

Seth is correct in his analysis. Finn seems not to quite understand what he's talking about.

finn
03-25-2012, 05:30 AM
??? No, I was saying that she would deceive Perrin by leaving this loophole in (once Rand dies she will receive control of the Two Rivers directly). The passage doesn't fit either side of our argument. Thus its up to idle speculation.

Like I said, this doesn't prove it either way, EXCEPT she very obviously doesn't say anything about what happens when Rand dies. We all know its going to be soon so I think she specifically misleads Perrin by making it sound like he will have control of the Two Rivers for a while.I don't think there's an intent at deception from Elayne. It's possible but not practical on her part as it would inevitably result in the rebellion she wants to avoid. She admits to them that she loves Rand, Faile too speculates about her pregnancy so the issue of his children potentially taking over seems fairly obvious for all parties not to consider. If their children marry, the issue becomes moot.

The passage quoting Elayne suggests that the figurative authority would rest in the Dragon and be contingent on him being reborn. I can't see "his return" referring to anything other than a post-death scenario. So if Perrin's authority is based on that, then there isn't much room for a loophole. Faile at least is trained to pick up on any wording problems before their agreement is published.

Elayne specifically says the taxes are in trust administered by Perrin, which makes him the trustee (the legal term for the administrator of a trust). Rand has the beneficial interest in the trust. Nothing in the text suggests that the trust works any differently from the way it does at English or American Common Law (or, for all I know, any other Common Law), so at the death of the beneficiary, the equitable interest would pass to his heirs, but Perrin's line would retain the legal interest. In fact, the only significant difference between this and a real trust is that it's settled for a period "until the Dragon returns", which breaks the doctrine of limitations of time by making the period indefinite, but I'm not sure that even needs to apply in this case.

What about the part that says, "with the understanding that if the Dragon ever returns, he can call upon them"

Suggests to me that the Dragon (as opposed to Rand) alone is beneficiary, not his heirs. It's not just a time limitation, it calls for his return so he can reclaim it.

Zombie Sammael
03-25-2012, 05:33 AM
I don't think there's an intent at deception from Elayne. It's possible but not practical on her part as it would inevitably result in the rebellion she wants to avoid. She admits to them that she loves Rand, Faile too speculates about her pregnancy so the issue of his children potentially taking over seems fairly obvious for all parties not to consider. If their children marry, the issue becomes moot.

The passage quoting Elayne suggests that the figurative authority would rest in the Dragon and be contingent on him being reborn. I can't see "his return" referring to anything other than a post-death scenario. So if Perrin's authority is based on that, then there isn't much room for a loophole. Faile at least is trained to pick up on any wording problems before their agreement is published.

That isn't how trusts work.

GonzoTheGreat
03-25-2012, 06:25 AM
Frankly, I think that "the Dragon" here is intended to be a legal fiction which smoothes over all sorts of complications that could otherwise lead to war. Plus, with the Dragon being someone who has the proven ability to return after death, I'm not at all sure that the concept of heirs would apply, and I think that is how Elayne intends it.

So the situation is quite simple:
-Perrin is in charge of the Two Rivers. Officially as Steward, actually as its lord.
-The Dragon is the official lord.
-If the Dragon survives TG (which Elayne hopes for, but does not expect), then he and Perrin can sort things out. That wouldn't lead to war, nor would it be something which had big legal repercussions.
-If the Dragon does not survive, but returns anyway, then there still wouldn't be many who would be inclined to fight his claim. Thus, no problem either.
-If the Dragon does not survive, and does not return, then he might return in the future. Thus, Perrin (and his heirs) continues stewarding, and there are no legal problems.
-If one of the Dragon's heirs wants to contest Perrin's right to be in charge, then that heir is free to prove that the Dragon won't return himself. As that's an impossible standard to meet, this should not be a big legal problem for Perrin.

All in all, no worries.

David Selig
03-25-2012, 06:33 AM
Personally I think the control of Two Rivers was given to Rand only in his Dragon Reborn capacity (both Morgase and Elayne said the plan was to give Two Rivers to the Dragon Reborn, not Rand al'Thor). and is not inheritable. Mostly because if it is inheritable this would make Faile a complete political idiot for not realising she and Perrin were getting tricked. Perrin is an ignorant doofus when it comes to stuff like this, but Faile is supposed to be much more competent and knowledgeable about politics and law. And in the same chapter she thought that the father of Elayne's baby is probably Rand.

Zombie Sammael
03-25-2012, 07:43 AM
It is, quite literally, a simple trust of the most basic kind. Obviously that has various effects that are beneficial to all involved, and if it is heritable, then eventually it is possible that the legal and beneficial interests could reside in one party, and the trust would no longer exist. But Elayne did not screw Perrin over, and nor is there any particular complexity or machination behind it.

Enigma
03-25-2012, 10:04 AM
There seems to be a lot of hostility towards Elayne and what she did even thought she have very good reasons for her actions. Perrin is popular and as one of the main characters we tend to identify with him but look at the world throught Elayne's eyes for a moment.

Andor is the most powerful nation in the Westland or at least it was before the comming of the Seanchan. Elayne as a ruler has to look at more than just what is going to happen tomorrow or the next day she has to take long term events into account.

If she allows any person to emerge onto the national or international stage and take over a chunk of Andor, even part that belongs to the nation only on paper, that sets a very bad precedent. There is bound to be a lot of chaos during and after the last battle assuming the Shadow is defeated.

The Seanchan are a major threat and have made it very clear that they goal is to unite all of the Westlands under their rule. Elayne needs to grow Andor's strenght to be able to resist this future theat not let anyone start carving up parts of it and leaving what is left weaker. This rational is probably behind the reasoning why she wants the Kin making gateways, wants to control or at least have a head start on the use of cannons and why she needs to secure Cairhien. I believe that she even has an idea of trying to get some degree of control of the Black Tower before anyone else does.

Now as far as trust law goes I confess that was one topic I always hated in law school and tended to try to pay as little as attention to as possible but from my limited knowledge of the subject who the beneficiaries and the trustees will be can be decided by the trust instrument (the document that sets up the trust). The trust can be for the benefit of the Dragon Reborn, or the Dragon Reborn and his issue (kids) when he dies or what ever way the creators fancy as long as it is not too uncertain.

Likewise any trust that is going to last a while should make provision for replacing the trustees for when they dies, become sick or simply want to retire. Again one of the simplest ways is to give the Trustees the power to appoint their successors. You could limit their choices of potential successors to a pool of candidates but again that would depend on who the trust instrument is created. If all else fails in Ireland at least you can apply to the courts to apoint a new trustee if the need arrives and there is no clear mechanism in the trust instrument. In this case assuming Andoran law = English common law Elayne as queen would be the font of justice and such an application would be made to a Judge or failing that the Throne itself.

So it would be quite possible that Elayne (assuming Andoran law is like common law) to set up the trust so that it Perrin will be the trustee and he can appoint his sucessors and the beneficiar would be Rand or the people of the Tower Rivers or even a potential Dragon Reborn reborn again in the future.

GonzoTheGreat
03-25-2012, 10:39 AM
The Seanchan are a major threat and have made it very clear that they goal is to unite all of the Westlands under their rule.
And why are they such a big threat?
Precisely because they intend to do just that which Elayne is trying to do: regain control of areas that according to their maps belong to their realm but in reality have been independent for generations.
To demonstrate, I'll use one of your paragraphs. I will change a few words. The new ones will be bolded, the old ones will be in parentheses behind it.

If Tuon (she) allows any person to emerge onto the national or international stage and take over a chunk of Hawkwing's Empire (Andor), even part that belongs to the nation only on paper, that sets a very bad precedent. There is bound to be a lot of chaos during and after the last battle assuming the Shadow is defeated.

Just two changes, and instead of having Elayne's justification we have the justification for the Return. You seem to disagree with the idea that the Seanchan have the duty of conquering all of Randland; why, if you do agree with Elayne's reasoning?

I think that both Tuon and Elayne are wrong here. That seems a consistent approach.

Seth Baker
03-25-2012, 10:52 AM
There seems to be a lot of hostility towards Elayne and what she did even thought she have very good reasons for her actions. Perrin is popular and as one of the main characters we tend to identify with him but look at the world throught Elayne's eyes for a moment.

Oh, for the love of God, don't ask them to look at things through the eyes of someone other than Perrin. They find it quite impossible.

E: Realizing that helps me understand why so many people hate Faile.

Now as far as trust law goes I confess that was one topic I always hated in law school and tended to try to pay as little as attention to as possible but from my limited knowledge of the subject who the beneficiaries and the trustees will be can be decided by the trust instrument (the document that sets up the trust). The trust can be for the benefit of the Dragon Reborn, or the Dragon Reborn and his issue (kids) when he dies or what ever way the creators fancy as long as it is not too uncertain.

Likewise any trust that is going to last a while should make provision for replacing the trustees for when they dies, become sick or simply want to retire. Again one of the simplest ways is to give the Trustees the power to appoint their successors. You could limit their choices of potential successors to a pool of candidates but again that would depend on who the trust instrument is created. If all else fails in Ireland at least you can apply to the courts to apoint a new trustee if the need arrives and there is no clear mechanism in the trust instrument. In this case assuming Andoran law = English common law Elayne as queen would be the font of justice and such an application would be made to a Judge or failing that the Throne itself.

So it would be quite possible that Elayne (assuming Andoran law is like common law) to set up the trust so that it Perrin will be the trustee and he can appoint his sucessors and the beneficiar would be Rand or the people of the Tower Rivers or even a potential Dragon Reborn reborn again in the future.

This is quite accurate.

Enigma
03-25-2012, 11:16 AM
Precisely because they intend to do just that which Elayne is trying to do: regain control of areas that according to their maps belong to their realm but in reality have been independent for generations.
To demonstrate, I'll use one of your paragraphs. I will change a few words. The new ones will be bolded, the old ones will be in parentheses behind it.

One difference is the passage of time. Hawkwing's emipre has been gone for over 1,000 years where as Andor's control of the Two Rivers is presumably more recent relativly speaking. Added to that Elayne's territorial expansion is in reaction to the threat from the Seanchan were as the Seanchan want to take control because they think they are entitled.

I certainly don't agree with Elayne's attitude or Tuon's and Elayne's who attitude with both Perrin & Mat anoyed me but I can understand where she was comming from.

Personally I think that Perrin went into that meeting all wrong. He should have went in as an equal not a subordinate. To be on equal footing with a channeler he should have had an Asha'man there and openly, not disguised in a farmer's coat. Likewise he should have made it clear that he did not want to take over Andor or any of its territory but Andor had abandoned the Two Rivers area for years hence they considered themselves a free state. If Elayne did not like that well she should look to the queens who came before her who had paid no attention to the region and had done nothing for them for decades if not longer.

He did touch on some of these points but they seemed very wantered down and meeting Elayne's threat of execution with "Rand would not like that," was weak. How about "you claim to be a nation of laws, by what right to you claim authority over us when we never swore fealty to you or the throne?"

Likewise I was very dissapointed with Mat. I can see for plot reasons Elayne had to get a degree of control over the Band and the new cannons but Mat went into the negotiations as if Elayne and her resources were the only game in town. Would it have killed him to mention that if he did not like the terms Elayne offered he might just have to take the Band and his cannon maker to Rand and the territory he controled and then Elayne could have Tear and Illain with artillary instead of Andor.

suttree
03-25-2012, 12:49 PM
One difference is the passage of time. Hawkwing's emipre has been gone for over 1,000 years where as Andor's control of the Two Rivers is presumably more recent relativly speaking.

Of course you are correct but Gonz doesn't seem to let common sense get in the way of his posts all that often.

Also I always find the outrage over Perrin's treatment somewhat comical. He essentially rebelled against the throne. The deal was fair and more than most in that situation could have hoped for.

Seth Baker
03-25-2012, 01:28 PM
Of course you are correct but Gonz doesn't seem to let common sense get in the way of his posts all that often.

I noticed.

Also I always find the outrage over Perrin's treatment somewhat comical. He essentially rebelled against the throne. The deal was fair and more than most in that situation could have hoped for.

I'm noticing a pronounced trend where people forgive Perrin everything he does wrong and desperately try to justify his actions.

Cortar
03-25-2012, 01:32 PM
Of course you are correct but Gonz doesn't seem to let common sense get in the way of his posts all that often.

Also I always find the outrage over Perrin's treatment somewhat comical. He essentially rebelled against the throne. The deal was fair and more than most in that situation could have hoped for.

Honestly his rebellion was warranted though, look at why America broke away from Great Britain, over taxation. The Two Rivers was attacked multiple times by multiple foreign armies and the Queen did absolutely nothing but threaten to kill the guy who organized the defense of it.

Enigma
03-25-2012, 02:16 PM
Was it even a rebellion? The nearest I can recall the people defying the throne was Elayne's comment that the people there recently told her tax collectors to go to hell. Up til that point there were no Queen's Guards keeping the place safe, no magistrates enforcing Andoran law, no tax collectors no visible connection with the crown.

What Perrin did is a bit murky from a legal stand point but its no more murky that what Elayne's own ancestors did when Hawkwing died and his empire started to fall apart. They each picked up something that another group may have had a claim on one upon a time but at the moment it has been more or less abandoned.

suttree
03-25-2012, 02:34 PM
Was it even a rebellion? The nearest I can recall the people defying the throne was Elayne's comment that the people there recently told her tax collectors to go to hell.

That was part of it. There is also the little matter of raising Manetheren's flag and marching all across Randland with it. Even if it was a ruse from Perrin's standpoint, it is still rebellion to the world at large.

In addition people are basically saying it is fine for remote areas in any country to break free just because they don't get all that much attention from the crown. These things go in cycles and now the TRs is growing in the opposite direction and will flourish under it tariff-free trade deal with Andor.

GonzoTheGreat
03-26-2012, 04:17 AM
One difference is the passage of time. Hawkwing's emipre has been gone for over 1,000 years where as Andor's control of the Two Rivers is presumably more recent relativly speaking. Added to that Elayne's territorial expansion is in reaction to the threat from the Seanchan were as the Seanchan want to take control because they think they are entitled.
To give an idea of how much more recent: comparable to the British possession of what is now the USA. So, in 1914, when the British were worried over the German expansion, would it have been reasonable if the British crown had conquered the USA and hung all its leaders as traitors?
I think you'll acknowledge that would not be reasonable.

Which, of course, raises the question: for how many generations should official rulers be totally forgotten in order to make their claims void?
We know that in the Two Rivers, basically no one was even aware any more that they were even supposed to be part of Andor. That means that no officials had been down there within living memory, which at the very least is 80 years, and, if some other Wisdom apart from Nynaeve could channel, would be a whole lot longer.


And, of course, if you do want to defend the Andoran claim, then you run head on into some other problems, which would make a trial very awkward indeed:
-Trollocs invaded the Two Rivers. The Crown of Andor did nothing.
-Whitecloaks invaded the Two Rivers. The Crown of Andor did nothing.
-More Trollocs invaded the Two Rivers. The Crown of Andor did nothing.
-Some of the locals organised self defense groups under a local leader, in order to fight against the Shadow. The Crown of Andor calls it treason.

Now, the pattern here seems to be clear: when the Shadow is killing people, the Queen does nothing, when people resist, the Queen disapproves.
Frankly, if it came to it, it would be interesting to see whom Rand would hang: Morgase or Perrin. Cause that's the choice he might have to make, if Elayne pushed a bit too hard yet had the decency not to execute Perrin in secret. The reaction to the second Trolloc invasion might be ascribed to Rahvin, but the first one can't. That one can only be explained in two ways: either Andor approved of it, or Andor had nothing at all to do with it. In the latter case, the TR wouldn't be a part of Andor, so where's the rebellion you're talking about?

final death
03-26-2012, 12:03 PM
according to the theory that rand does not exist and that perrin is the dragon reborn she did screw him all night long.:rolleyes: and then threatened to murder him. which makes his excuse of rand wouldn't like that even more ridiculous and her obviously thinking she should have chosen a much more stable partner. Also his constantly talking about the falcon who also does not exist and how much he loves her probably hurts the feelings of elayne.

Heinz
03-26-2012, 02:35 PM
-Trollocs invaded the Two Rivers. The Crown of Andor did nothing.
-Whitecloaks invaded the Two Rivers. The Crown of Andor did nothing.
-More Trollocs invaded the Two Rivers. The Crown of Andor did nothing.
-Some of the locals organised self defense groups under a local leader, in order to fight against the Shadow. The Crown of Andor calls it treason.


I was going to chime in with explanations of my own, but this sums up my thoughts and feelings on the subject quite nicely.

I actually dislike Perrin overall. He's been a frustrating character, IMO. It isn't the boredom that many others have issues with, but his blind single-mindedness when it comes to Faile (which I know some others share in that also). I don't forgive anything with Perrin.

That being said, I don't think Elayne has behaved different from how a monarch would likely behave, just not the idealized 'righteous and just' ruler that she seems to want to think she is.

Enigma
03-26-2012, 03:19 PM
Elayne essentially defended a claim that her crown had on an area. One could argue that the crown surrendered that claim by inaction over a long period of time.

As I posted earlier I personally would have liked to see Perrin show up and call her on the fact that the crown had left the region swinging in the wind when the trollocks attacked in TEofW and laster in TSR as well as letting the Whitecloaks more or less take over until they were kicked out.

Given that the world is about to end I suppose you could give Perrin credit for putting the needs of the world ahead of his regional interests while still working out a deal that more or less kept the status quo of semi independance while satasfying Elayne's political requirements not to surrender a part of her country no matter how tenuous her claim.

I don't think its a stretch to believe that a lot of the noble houses are keeping a close eye on the decisions Elayne makes. She has the crown but she did not exactly have a ringing endorsement from all the Houses. If she appears to be too weak from an Andoran point of view (even if her actions were just or the right thing to do) and she could find the nobles becoming more and more restless. That is not something she can deal with now, nor can the forces of the light afford that.

suttree
03-26-2012, 03:38 PM
Given that the world is about to end I suppose you could give Perrin credit for putting the needs of the world ahead of his regional interests while still working out a deal that more or less kept the status quo of semi independance while satasfying Elayne's political requirements not to surrender a part of her country no matter how tenuous her claim.

I don't think its a stretch to believe that a lot of the noble houses are keeping a close eye on the decisions Elayne makes. She has the crown but she did not exactly have a ringing endorsement from all the Houses. If she appears to be too weak from an Andoran point of view (even if her actions were just or the right thing to do) and she could find the nobles becoming more and more restless. That is not something she can deal with now, nor can the forces of the light afford that.

I agree with most of what you say here. Some people seem to be forgetting that the 2Rs is going to flourish under this deal. Tariff free trade, no taxes and expansion of nearby mining interests will all benefit the area in the long run.

The deal was fair to both sides and Elayne did what she needed to do to save face as a young Queen.

Seth Baker
03-26-2012, 04:42 PM
Elayne essentially defended a claim that her crown had on an area. One could argue that the crown surrendered that claim by inaction over a long period of time.

I don't think this is supported in RW international law. I can't comment on Randland, since nobody knows what the law of nations is there, but sovereignty is not easily abandoned once obtained. And once alternative sovereignty is claimed, the original claim can be kept alive by continuous protest by the original owner. Elayne met the standard for RW international law. The fact that it hasn't been administered doesn't mean that Andor does not have a right to reestablish their sovereignty that cannot be defeated by a unilateral independence movement.

GonzoTheGreat
03-27-2012, 04:09 AM
Actually, I think that there is a real world analogy here, which supports Perrin's case. Sort of, more or less, at least.

Somewhere in the 16th century, Dutchmen discovered Australia and claimed it. Then they forgot about it. Later on, it was discovered again by the British, who claimed it and actually made good on that claim. If Elayne is correct, then the Netherlands should be able to legally claim sovereignity over Australia right now. I do hope you lot will see that would be rather unlikely to be successful. I also hope Geert Wilders doesn't read this, he is mad enough to want to try it, and influential enough to get our government to go along.

Simply having a claim on something is not good enough, there is also the concept of "abandoned property". That is precisely the reason which Elayne would use to deny the Seanchan claims to her country, so she would have quite a big problem in showing that it does not apply to the TR too.
Someone has said that fact that the Seanchan claim is older should be taken into account. But another issue which would seem to be more relevant is how long the property has been ignored, how diligent the owner has been in trying to regain possession of it. When it comes to the TR, no Andoran monarch within the last couple of centuries had bothered to do anything about it at all. On the other hand, when it comes to reasserting the Seanchan claims, they can point to their multi-generational preparations for doing precisely that, thus showing in (their) courts that they had not abandoned it at all.

greatwolf
03-29-2012, 05:42 PM
If I understand this theory at all, Elayne's screwing of Perrin is based on this "trust" being passed to Elayne's kids? Why would that happen? Rand and Elyane are not married and anybody can claim their kids belong to Rand.

As far as the world knows, Rand has no heirs. And why are talking about Andoran law and not international (??) or 2R law? Whatever agreement is eventually drawn up to be signed will be scrutinised by both parties. And Faile, i think, knows enough to get a good lawyer involved.

Seth Baker
03-29-2012, 11:04 PM
Dammit, I'm not going to talk about Randland choice of laws. I don't even like it in the real world.

suttree
03-30-2012, 12:09 AM
And why are talking about Andoran law and not international (??) or 2R law?

Maybe because the 2Rs is Andor?

Rand al'Fain
03-30-2012, 03:03 AM
Maybe because the 2Rs is Andor?
That's debatable. The reason being, is that aside from Taren Ferry and a handful of individuals, the Two Rivers is almost completely isolated from the rest of the world and have their own cultures, traditions, and have been in effect, governing themselves for a couple of centuries. With, aside from the occasional peddler, gleeman, or merchant, the people of Watch Hill, Emond's Field, and Deven Ride have had no contact with the outside world until the Trollocs came on Winter's Night in TEoTW. No one had seen, let alone heard from, any Andoran official in generations. One can fairly assume that aside from some old pieces of paper that had been more or less ignored for decades at least, that the Andoran government had essentially abandoned the Two Rivers.

greatwolf
03-30-2012, 05:20 AM
Maybe because the 2Rs is Andor?

It isn't. Its a part of manetheren that was annexed by Andor. Annexed but never fully assimilated. Andor doesn't even appoint a Governor for the place. And in this time period, borders are more a result of might than right(s).

Cortar
03-30-2012, 10:18 AM
If I understand this theory at all, Elayne's screwing of Perrin is based on this "trust" being passed to Elayne's kids? Why would that happen? Rand and Elyane are not married and anybody can claim their kids belong to Rand.

Haven't you listened to Elayne and all of her talk about marrying Rand? Even if she doesn't her children are his and would have a right to the trust.

GonzoTheGreat
03-30-2012, 10:23 AM
Haven't you listened to Elayne and all of her talk about marrying Rand? Even if she doesn't her children are his and would have a right to the trust.
Depends on whether it is one that can be inherited or not.

Most can, perhaps. But in this case, that is by no means obvious. The Dragon Reborn is a man for whom not even death is an insurmountable barrier, so a good case could be made that no matter what, he could return to take up his position as lord and owner of the TR at any time, and therefor no one else can inherit it.
Just as some Christians claim that the Pope and his children inherited Jesus' authority, while others maintain that because Jesus can supposedly return whenever he wants, no ordinary human can fill that post.

Cortar
03-30-2012, 10:39 AM
Depends on whether it is one that can be inherited or not.

Most can, perhaps. But in this case, that is by no means obvious. The Dragon Reborn is a man for whom not even death is an insurmountable barrier, so a good case could be made that no matter what, he could return to take up his position as lord and owner of the TR at any time, and therefor no one else can inherit it.
Elayne was pretty much openly hostile to Perrin, I wouldn't be surprised if it were hereditary.


Just as some Christians claim that the Pope and his children inherited Jesus' authority, while others maintain that because Jesus can supposedly return whenever he wants, no ordinary human can fill that post.
o.O Iv never heard THAT before.

GonzoTheGreat
03-30-2012, 10:56 AM
o.O Iv never heard THAT before.
I've shortened the argument a bit. I'm sure that Fred Phelps and Pat Robertson would be able to give longer (and possibly more accurate) versions of it. Then again, I also somewhat simplified the Roman Catholic version; they sort of try to claim that the Pope is more like a steward, which would be a Perrin-analogue here. So, having misrepresented both, I have been fair and balanced.

Grig
03-30-2012, 11:18 AM
It isn't. Its a part of manetheren that was annexed by Andor.

Manetheren was destroyed well over a thousand years before Andor was founded. You can't annex a part of something that doesn't exist.

And in this time period, borders are more a result of might than right(s).

This is more justification that the Two Rivers are part of Andor. Right says that they rule themselves since doing their own dirty work and driving off the Trollocs. Might says that Andor owns them, as they could easily cut off all trade and starve them out if they wanted (assuming they don't want to lose men in an attack on the fortified areas).

suttree
03-30-2012, 12:45 PM
It isn't. Its a part of manetheren that was annexed by Andor. Annexed but never fully assimilated. Andor doesn't even appoint a Governor for the place. And in this time period, borders are more a result of might than right(s).

I am not familiar with how Andor rules it's outlying areas. Do they appoint Governors?

Regardless Manetheren? Annexed? Bwahaha that hasn't existed for how many years? I am starting to see you often ignore what is written in the text for your own fanciful interpretations. The books clearly state that no matter how isolated and blissfully ignorant the inhabitants, it is still Andor. That is why they were discussing the issue of rebellion. Perrin never even denies it, he just stated the crown has ignored them in the past. The results of the deal were fair and the 2Rs will flourish. If there was a question about how Andor had governed them in the past, it has surely been set aside now that the new deal is in place.

So, having misrepresented both, I have been fair and balanced.

Awesome.

Enigma
03-30-2012, 01:12 PM
I am not familiar with how Andor rules it's outlying areas. Do they appoint Governors?

In TEofW there was reference to a Governor Heran Adan who was based at Baerlon who the Whitecloaks were giving a hard time to.

suttree
03-30-2012, 02:04 PM
In TEofW there was reference to a Governor Heran Adan who was based at Baerlon who the Whitecloaks were giving a hard time to.

Ahh yes, now I recall. Thanks. Wonder why we don't hear anything about that for other places in Andor? Could possibly be an early bookism? Wouldn't area nobles usually fill that role?

Zombie Sammael
03-30-2012, 03:08 PM
Ahh yes, now I recall. Thanks. Wonder why we don't hear anything about that for other places in Andor? Could possibly be an early bookism? Wouldn't area nobles usually fill that role?

Nobles tend to congregate in the nicer areas - either palaces/mansions in the cities or countryside estates - even if they do have estates or operations outside of those areas. Baerlon is essentially a mining town too far away from Caemlyn to really be of much use to a noble, so they probably wouldn't choose to settle there. Since the queen can't compel the nobles, she'd have to appoint a governor if she wants to maintain control of the area - which she does, since those mines produce valuable ores.

greatwolf
03-30-2012, 04:40 PM
Depends on whether it is one that can be inherited or not.

Most can, perhaps. But in this case, that is by no means obvious. The Dragon Reborn is a man for whom not even death is an insurmountable barrier, so a good case could be made that no matter what, he could return to take up his position as lord and owner of the TR at any time, and therefor no one else can inherit it.
Just as some Christians claim that the Pope and his children inherited Jesus' authority, while others maintain that because Jesus can supposedly return whenever he wants, no ordinary human can fill that post.


Inherited by whom? Apart from the fact that it may be difficult to define "death" when it comes to Rand, there's also the problem of nationality among others. Rand is aiel and has an andoran father. Anyone who claims to have Rand's children can claim the 2R if this is followed as is. For example Avi's children. Or Min's.

And by being linked to Rand, Perrin can claim to be included in the title "the Dragon Reborn" as daft as it may sound. Heck, he even destroyed the shaido, a prophecy that the caracan (Rand) was supposed to fulfill.

Even if the treaty avoids using the term Dragon Reborn, it will be difficult to establish any sort of claim on Elayne's part unless she marries Rand. And if she does, Andor could well become an aiel province!

suttree
03-30-2012, 05:03 PM
Nobles tend to congregate in the nicer areas - either palaces/mansions in the cities or countryside estates - even if they do have estates or operations outside of those areas. Baerlon is essentially a mining town too far away from Caemlyn to really be of much use to a noble, so they probably wouldn't choose to settle there. Since the queen can't compel the nobles, she'd have to appoint a governor if she wants to maintain control of the area - which she does, since those mines produce valuable ores.

The mining is precisely why I would thought some Noble would be in on it. Seems like a good position for income and a good placement for a third son or the like.

I'm guessing places like Whitebridge and Aringill have Nobles in that capacity.

Zombie Sammael
03-30-2012, 05:26 PM
The mining is precisely why I would thought some Noble would be in on it. Seems like a good position for income and a good placement for a third son or the like.

I'm guessing places like Whitebridge and Aringill have Nobles in that capacity.

I don't think there's anything really to say the Governor isn't a noble. In fact, they probably are. They might not necessarily have their title if, as you suggest, they're a third-in-line or otherwise unimportant; the title "Governor of Baerlon" may convey more weight than "Lady Ruchel, Third-Heir Of House Unimportans".

David Selig
03-30-2012, 06:18 PM
Even if the treaty avoids using the term Dragon Reborn, it will be difficult to establish any sort of claim on Elayne's part unless she marries Rand. And if she does, Andor could well become an aiel province!
Wait, what? How does that work?

suttree
03-30-2012, 10:02 PM
Wait, what? How does that work?

I'm learning fairly quickly to not even ask...

GonzoTheGreat
03-31-2012, 03:37 AM
Wait, what? How does that work?
In just about the same way that in the late Middle Ages, France became an English colony. Of course, that did not quite work, because some peasant girl started hearing voices, but I'm sure such a problem would not occur in this case.

Basically, there would two (or more) branches of the family, all with the claim of being the heirs of the DR. Then they would start arguing over which had the most important claim, or the claim of being the most important, or both, or something else, those arguments would lead to war, and before you know it Shakespeare is writing about the whole mess.

greatwolf
03-31-2012, 06:40 AM
Wait, what? How does that work?

It all depends on the details of the treaty. Elayne is granting a tax exception based on Rand. But how does Rand qualify for a tax exemption? As a leige lord to Andor? Or because he's the DR?

The titles and rights of nobility and the monarchy are usually part of the constitution of a nation as long as its sovreign, but what kind of title is the DR and is it recognised under Andoran law? If a constitution recognises the bible as supreme for instance, then anyone who can legally identified as Jesus can claim supreme authority in that land. But only if its already written (and accepted, but an unaccepted law is another matter).

And if Elayne accepts that Rand is exempt from Andoran law, what of the aiel, since Rand himself is aiel and his children are by definition aiel? And how does the law define the DR since Mat and Perrin are linked to him closer than brothers?

As Gonzo said, the whole thing is a good recipe for trouble somewhere down the line unless the treaty is well drafted. Probably take a lifetime of reviews to make it stick.

Personally I had always hoped to see some form of democracy develop in the RLs and this was a good excuse to start one but i guess RJ prefers the monarchy thingy. However its obvious that fitting the channelers into mainstream society and legal standards will not be easy. So a separate judicial system might be best for them.

GonzoTheGreat
03-31-2012, 06:59 AM
Frankly, I think that Perrin, Faile and Elayne are all smart enough to foresee this kind of problem, and that they've already pre-empted it.

I never had the impression that the trust would be inherited at all. As I saw it, it was something explicitly tied to the person of the Dragon. If that person shows up, then he's the one calling the shots. Until that time, his steward and the steward's heirs have to manage things.

What with them all knowing that Rand will be dead before the details of this arrangement are even explained to all the Andoran nobles, that is the only thing that makes sense.

Having Rand be in charge is a legal fiction which allows all parties to simply continue the status quo, where Andor has formal claims, the Two Rivers blithely ignores all Andoran authority, and the Andoran crown has an official reason for being happy with that situation. Only the last bit is new, and it's that bit for which Rand was written into the agreement.

greatwolf
03-31-2012, 08:14 AM
We know that Gonzo, but the thread assumes something else could be Elayne's intent and that has led us down a twisted a technical path. (Are legal issues always twisted?).

Even if Rand somehow survives the LB, Elayne and Perrin would likely be comfortable with the agreement all the same. But I don't know what the Andorans would make of it though.

Enigma
03-31-2012, 08:49 AM
(Are legal issues always twisted?).

Sometimes the issue will be simple but quite often its a lot more complicated that one would expect.

One think that I was wondering about was having one nations with a different tax rates. What happens to eastern Andor where more of the larger cities/towns are if the Two Rivers area becomes more business friendly with lower tariffs or tax rates? Elayne does have the Sea Folk free trade area and the Kin provding Traveling but I wonder will economic influence start moving a bit to the west which seems to be rich in natural resourses if all the mines are there.

GonzoTheGreat
03-31-2012, 09:31 AM
One think that I was wondering about was having one nations with a different tax rates. What happens to eastern Andor where more of the larger cities/towns are if the Two Rivers area becomes more business friendly with lower tariffs or tax rates? Elayne does have the Sea Folk free trade area and the Kin provding Traveling but I wonder will economic influence start moving a bit to the west which seems to be rich in natural resourses if all the mines are there.
Don't worry about that. After the next Breaking, which the Dragon will bring in just a couple of days or weeks, there will be whole new mountain ranges with whole new mineral seams everywhere.

Uno
03-31-2012, 07:28 PM
This is a somewhat complex question. Personally, my understanding was the same as Gonzo's--that the bit about the Dragon being granted the Two Rivers is just a convenient legal fiction, but based on exactly what that means, it could cause some problems down the road.

If the Dragon means the Dragon--and not Rand's bloodline--there is no problem. Either Rand dies in the Last Battle or he returns alive and presumably becomes Elayne's consort. If that is the case, Perrin can run the show, as Rand is unlikey to spend much time in the Two Rivers, anyway. If he does end up moving home--which I consider unlikely--I'm sure he and Perrin would sort something out. If Rand dies, the problem is likewise non-existent, as the Dragon is unlikely to be reborn for some time.

The problem only arises if the grant to the Dragon is understood to be hereditary, and in that case it all depends on Andoran law and possibly on which of Elayne's two children is born first. We all know that the royal succession it based on female-only primogeniture, but we also know that Andoran lordships are often held by men.

If Andoran law in general stipulates absolute primogeniture (I think it's unlikely that it's male-preference primogeniture), the situation could arise where Rand's first born son inherits the Two Rivers and his daughter the throne of Andor. This would be if the male twin was born before his sister. If the sister is born first (and the rule is absolute primogeniture), the Two Rivers would devolve to the crown with Perrin's line remaining Stewards, so no real problem there, except that the tax exempt status might go up in smoke.

If Rand's son inherits the Two Rivers, there would probably not be an immediate conflict of interest, as the First Prince of the Sword is required to spend the majority of his time in the capital, but there's the potential for conflict down the road, if Rand's son founds a house of his own.

greatwolf
03-31-2012, 07:52 PM
This is a somewhat complex question. Personally, my understanding was the same as Gonzo's--that the bit about the Dragon being granted the Two Rivers is just a convenient legal fiction, but based on exactly what that means, it could cause some problems down the road.

If the Dragon means the Dragon--and not Rand's bloodline--there is no problem.

Um, are you saying this despite the fact that Elayne isn't married to Rand? You see, I can accept that Andorans would have no trouble with the status of Elayne's kids since the inheritance is maternal (through her) but this agreement is about Rand. If Rand marries Min and survives TLB, then Elayne has no claims. Or at least will find it difficult even after Rand dies.

Even if Rand doesn't marry and doesn't survive, Elayne will have a hard time selling it especially if Perrin were to oppose her claim. Besides will the people accept Elayne's line and Elayne's authority? (Without Rand, Elayne's kids will be seen as just that-Elayne's kids). I don't see them leaning that way. BTW, Egwene and nynaeve are also 2R subjects...

Uno
03-31-2012, 08:04 PM
Um, are you saying this despite the fact that Elayne isn't married to Rand? You see, I can accept that Andorans would have no trouble with the status of Elayne's kids since the inheritance is maternal (through her) but this agreement is about Rand. If Rand marries Min and survives TLB, then Elayne has no claims. Or at least will find it difficult even after Rand dies.

Even if Rand doesn't marry and doesn't survive, Elayne will have a hard time selling it especially if Perrin were to oppose her claim. Besides will the people accept Elayne's line and Elayne's authority? (Without Rand, Elayne's kids will be seen as just that-Elayne's kids). I don't see them leaning that way. BTW, Egwene and nynaeve are also 2R subjects...

This discussion, as was pretty evident, was predicated on the assumption that Rand and Elayne stay together. As I said, if Rand wants to move back to the Two Rivers after the last battle, then that's something he and Perrin would have to sort out.

I don't know how Andoran law stands when it comes to bastardy and inheritance, but if the queen names Rand as the father, then Andorans, at least, would be very likely to go along with that. If bastardy doesn't matter, and the grant to the Dragon is understood to be hereditary, then one of Elayne's children with Rand could make a claim. Perrin or his heirs could, of course, challenge that claim--by denying the paternity, for instance--but then we have the potential for conflict.

Honestly, that's pretty obvious stuff, so it's unclear to me why you bring it up here. But thank you for informing us all that Egwene and Nynaeve were born in the Two Rivers.

Seth Baker
03-31-2012, 08:05 PM
This is a somewhat complex question. Personally, my understanding was the same as Gonzo's--that the bit about the Dragon being granted the Two Rivers is just a convenient legal fiction, but based on exactly what that means, it could cause some problems down the road.

If the Dragon means the Dragon--and not Rand's bloodline--there is no problem. Either Rand dies in the Last Battle or he returns alive and presumably becomes Elayne's consort. If that is the case, Perrin can run the show, as Rand is unlikey to spend much time in the Two Rivers, anyway. If he does end up moving home--which I consider unlikely--I'm sure he and Perrin would sort something out. If Rand dies, the problem is likewise non-existent, as the Dragon is unlikely to be reborn for some time.

The problem only arises if the grant to the Dragon is understood to be hereditary, and in that case it all depends on Andoran law and possibly on which of Elayne's two children is born first. We all know that the royal succession it based on female-only primogeniture, but we also know that Andoran lordships are often held by men.

If Andoran law in general stipulates absolute primogeniture (I think it's unlikely that it's male-preference or male-only primogeniture), the situation could arise where Rand's first born son inherits the Two Rivers and his daughter the throne of Andor. This would be if the male twin was born before his sister. If the sister is born first (and the rule is absolute primogeniture), the Two Rivers would devolve to the crown with Perrin's line remaining Stewards, so no real problem there, except that the tax exempt status might go up in smoke.

If Rand's son inherits the Two Rivers, there would probably not be an immediate conflict of interest, as the First Prince of the Sword is required to spend the majority of his time in the capital, but there's the potential for conflict down the road, if Rand's son founds a house of his own.

(I'm going to drastically oversimplify property law here because it's been a long time, but the general principles should still hold true.)

I disagree. The Dragon is his title: like a King. And while it's not an inheritable title, I see two main issues here.

First, is a grant to "the Dragon" a grant to the title, or a grant to the individual described by that title?

Second, is the grant here a life estate, or of an actual fee simple title? If it's the former, it expires with Rand's death.

I'll start with the second, because I think the answer there sheds light on the first. It's a fee simple grant. There's no language of limitation here. No indication of who the right of possession returns to after Rand's death. All factors indicate that it's an unlimited grant to Rand.

If it doesn't return to anyone, it must go to his heirs at law. Since common law should apply, this would mean any legal children born during his marriages.

This is where it gets a little crazy. The laws of Andor apply because the property in question is part of Andor, per the agreement between Perrin and Elayne.

Under typical Anglo-Saxon law, his first male child would inherit. However, one of the areas that we know Andor deviates from feudal England is the ability of women to hold titles; the fact that only women can be ruler strongly suggests that male primogeniture is not the norm. As such, we're going to assume that there's gender neutral primogeniture, so it'll go to whichever child is born first. (Remember, because they're inheriting through Rand and not through Elayne, it's entirely possible that if Elayne has the son before the daughter, that the son will become Lord of the Two Rivers while his sister ascends to Queen of Andor.)

Now, if he marries Elayne before she gives birth, there's a presumption that children born of their wedding are his, even if the wedding takes place a day before they're born. However, if she gives birth before they get married, they're bastards and could not inherit under common law. (We don't know anything about how Andoran law treats bastards; the fact that they're not mentioned is troublesome, but since we truly know nothing, I'm going to operate under the assumption that common law applies.) Accordingly, the question would then fall to whether Rand marries Aviendha before she gives birth. If so, his firstborn Aiel child would inherit. If not, and he has no children by Min, his wives would inherit.

You probably can't split shares in lordship, so this would be irreconcilable.

Uno
03-31-2012, 08:17 PM
(I'm going to drastically oversimplify property law here because it's been a long time, but the general principles should still hold true.)


Could you clarify how you disagree from my assessment of the situation, exactly? That's not clear to me. At any rate, we're not talking about transfers of property, but the transfer of a lordship, and those laws are generally different, depending on the wording of the original grant. The general rule when it comes to British peerages, for instance, is male-only primogeniture--if there is no male heir of the original title holder, the title goes extinct-- but some peerages can pass through female lines, in which case they operate under the rule of male-preference primogeniture. That depends entirely on stipulations made when the grant was first made.

Seth Baker
03-31-2012, 09:50 PM
I admit I know nothing about peerage law and figured based on the way that fee tail works that it should be similar to peerage inheritability. If you actually know something about it, I'll obviously defer - but it seems like there are a lot of people whose experience with law is limited to watching reruns of Judge Judy throw their legal opinion around a lot here. LOL

greatwolf
04-01-2012, 12:55 PM
This discussion, as was pretty evident, was predicated on the assumption that Rand and Elayne stay together

Together? Its Min and Rand that have been going arm in arm so far. Elayne can claim her babies belong to Rand, but it will certainly be seen as an attempt to regain what she gave in the agreement and the entire palace knows who the father of the babies is, so do the WOs!

There's nothing that protects like truth.:)

But thank you for informing us all that Egwene and Nynaeve were born in the Two Rivers.

I guess I should explain that. Both are of the 2R and therefore Perrin's subjects but nyn outranks Elayne as AS while Egwene is the amyrlin seat and likely to be married to Gwayn. If both disagree with Elayne intentions concerning the 2R, and its likely they will, how will Elayne take it?

She'll go to war against the 2R? Quite unlikely. I doubt she's in any position to swindle Perrin now or after Rand's "death". And she probably doesn't have any ground to stand on legally as far as that agreement is concerned, but hey I'm no judge.

Uno
04-01-2012, 03:01 PM
I guess I should explain that. Both are of the 2R and therefore Perrin's subjects but nyn outranks Elayne as AS while Egwene is the amyrlin seat and likely to be married to Gwayn. If both disagree with Elayne intentions concerning the 2R, and its likely they will, how will Elayne take it?


Neither is a subject of Perrin under any circumstances. They're Aes Sedai, and therefore subject to the White Tower. You might call them subjects of Elayne or Rand. After all, Perrin is a mere steward to Elayne's chosen lord over the Two Rivers. I don't really see Egwene rushing to Perrin's defence, to tell you the truth.

Uno
04-01-2012, 04:38 PM
If you actually know something about it, I'll obviously defer - but it seems like there are a lot of people whose experience with law is limited to watching reruns of Judge Judy throw their legal opinion around a lot here. LOL

I'm not an expert at all, I just know enough about early modern nobility to know that these things varied a lot. It's very hard to generalize, since there was usually no systematic practice in any part of Europe. Indeed, the only generalization I would dare to make is that particularism was the common trend--a bewildering variety of rights, privileges, customs, and exemptions could be found in any given region, practices that had their origins in old charters, grants, customary laws, and so on.

Enigma
04-01-2012, 06:18 PM
In our world it is possible for someone to be made a "sir" or "lady" without out the title passing down to their descendents but from what we have seen of Randland someone is either a commoner or a noble. When one is raised to the nobility the title and rank seems to pass to his/her children.

I think it was in a pov from Rodel Ituralde where he said that there had been no House Ituralde before him but "House" suggests that the title in not just limited to him for his life. Granted it might be different in Andor.

Uno
04-01-2012, 06:39 PM
In our world it is possible for someone to be made a "sir" or "lady" without out the title passing down to their descendents but from what we have seen of Randland someone is either a commoner or a noble. When one is raised to the nobility the title and rank seems to pass to his/her children.

I think it was in a pov from Rodel Ituralde where he said that there had been no House Ituralde before him but "House" suggests that the title in not just limited to him for his life. Granted it might be different in Andor.

Yeah, nobility can be hereditary or not. I get the sense that it's always hereditary in Randland, just like it typically is on the European continent, but noble rank must be separated from political authority over a particular piece of territory granted by the monarch or other ruler. Historically, a noble may or may not hold a fief. In Rand's case, we're obviously taking about a quite extensive fiefdom, though.

greatwolf
04-02-2012, 12:04 AM
Neither is a subject of Perrin under any circumstances. They're Aes Sedai, and therefore subject to the White Tower. You might call them subjects of Elayne or Rand. After all, Perrin is a mere steward to Elayne's chosen lord over the Two Rivers. I don't really see Egwene rushing to Perrin's defence, to tell you the truth.


The amyrlin (Egwene) is Elayne's subject? Was that an april fool joke or something?

Uno
04-02-2012, 12:31 AM
The amyrlin (Egwene) is Elayne's subject? Was that an april fool joke or something?

I said might, meaning, if she were subject to anyone at all, it would be Elayne. But she's subject to the White Tower, which I also said. You, on the other hand, said she was Perrin's subject, so ...

Rand al'Fain
04-02-2012, 01:09 AM
I said might, meaning, if she were subject to anyone at all, it would be Elayne. But she's subject to the White Tower, which I also said. You, on the other hand, said she was Perrin's subject, so ...

The way I understand it, is that by joining the White Tower, all Aes Sedai, Novices, and Accepted are supposed to cut loyalties with their homelands, unless they can be propped up as a ruler, which seems to be the exception (like Moiraine in New Spring (though she never gave the other Aes Sedai a chance) and Elayne in 3 seperate books).

greatwolf
04-02-2012, 02:23 AM
I said might, meaning, if she were subject to anyone at all, it would be Elayne. But she's subject to the White Tower, which I also said. You, on the other hand, said she was Perrin's subject, so ...

Because they don't see themselves as andoran subjects but two rivers people. Same with Rand and Mat and with everyone else we've seen from Edmond's field. There are no bets what the outcome of a referendum would be. Elayne would lose what she never really had.

The agreement allows Elayne to save face while losing something she didn't really own and had no time for. And keep a friend (Perrin) in power. Its almost like granting autonomy to a region. But she wouldn't say that right out without looking weak to her rivals and enemies.

Of course, her bond to Rand may be making her think more like he does, but we don't have conclusive evidence that the bond does that.

Uno
04-02-2012, 12:23 PM
Because they don't see themselves as andoran subjects but two rivers people. Same with Rand and Mat and with everyone else we've seen from Edmond's field. There are no bets what the outcome of a referendum would be. Elayne would lose what she never really had.

That's not what being a subject means. Subjecthood is a political relationship--you owe allegiance (at least in theory) to a person or a state--it's not the same as personal or ethnic identity.

Enigma
04-02-2012, 04:10 PM
Being subject normally means what the guy with the bigger army says it means. What Elayne has to factor in is that she no longer has the bigger army, or at least its not so much bigger that the other army and its allies to make the matter certain.

Legality is all well and good but if you lack the force to back up that law it just becomes words. Put it another way once upon a time there were 13 colonies that owed allegience to a certain King George and legally the people in those colonies were his subjects. Then those people managed to evict the king's men and suddenly they were not his subjects any more.

Uno
04-02-2012, 04:18 PM
Being subject normally means what the guy with the bigger army says it means. What Elayne has to factor in is that she no longer has the bigger army, or at least its not so much bigger that the other army and its allies to make the matter certain.


I don't think Andor's weakness in the Two Rivers is really in dispute, but I don't think Elayne has any intention of reducing the area to firm obedience, anyway. Frankly, the anti-Elayne paranoia some of you seem to harbour puzzles me. Of course, the fact that power relations might to some extent inform subject-ruler relations is something none of us would have thought of on our own, I'm sure, so thanks for providing us with that information.

Enigma
04-02-2012, 06:11 PM
I don't think Andor's weakness in the Two Rivers is really in dispute, but I don't think Elayne has any intention of reducing the area to firm obedience, anyway. Frankly, the anti-Elayne paranoia some of you seem to harbour puzzles me.

Actually I think Elayne handled the situation very well. She is not the sort to just want to slaughter people to either make a point or bring them to heel. Secondly she took what from her was a bad military and political situation and got quite a good deal from it. Going back to my earlier examply imagine the world today if those 13 colonies had been persuanded to stay part of King George's realm.

Of course, the fact that power relations might to some extent inform subject-ruler relations is something none of us would have thought of on our own, I'm sure, so thanks for providing us with that information.

Your welcome, always happy to help :)

greatwolf
04-03-2012, 04:01 AM
I don't think Andor's weakness in the Two Rivers is really in dispute, but I don't think Elayne has any intention of reducing the area to firm obedience, anyway. Frankly, the anti-Elayne paranoia some of you seem to harbour puzzles me. Of course, the fact that power relations might to some extent inform subject-ruler relations is something none of us would have thought of on our own, I'm sure, so thanks for providing us with that information.

Anti-Elayne? Why would anyone be against a beautiful redhead? Sure you're not mistaken?