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Cortar
03-24-2012, 10:48 PM
How many years would you consider "many years"

There is a point to this inane question.

In the future of Randland that Aviendha saw in the pillars in Rhuidian, her children talk about the old empress being a wise rule, but she was dead at the time of the POV.
Later one we learn it was 17 years since the last battle.


The question then, since Toun and Matt are supposed to live through the last battle and have many adventures and romances together, how many years is considered, "many."

Is there enough time for these things to happen? If not then does this mean this particular cannot possibly happen?

GonzoTheGreat
03-25-2012, 05:27 AM
RJ had been planning to write a few outriggers which centered on Mat and Tuon, five to ten years after the Last Battle. This would then describe how the Seanchan mainland was reconquered. Which, I think, would provide plenty of room for adventures, and maybe even some romance. Yet, at the same time, it would also allow Tuon to have died within a 17 year time frame. So there is no inconsistency here.

The Unreasoner
03-25-2012, 05:55 PM
It's also possible that the Pillar future was a 'maybe', so when and if the outriggers come to be, it may be in spite of/instead of the Pillar viewings. (So, they may not be able to exist together.)

Zombie Sammael
03-26-2012, 05:16 AM
It's also possible that the Pillar future was a 'maybe', so when and if the outriggers come to be, it may be in spite of/instead of the Pillar viewings. (So, they may not be able to exist together.)

Possible? It's all but guaranteed that that future will be changed. "Chekov's Prophecy".

GonzoTheGreat
03-26-2012, 05:40 AM
I think that Aviendha's vision is related to the things that were seen in the Portal Stone Ride in TGH. Or, to quote the book that Loial quoted in when explaining Portal Stones to Rand: 'From Stone to Stone run the lines of "if," between the worlds that might be.'

Then, when you know about such a possibility, you do something different, thus making sure that it does not come true.

Terez
03-26-2012, 05:43 AM
Moved from the question thread, since we haven't had a discussion on this in a while, really.

Agreed that it's pretty much guaranteed that the future will change from what Aviendha saw. The question is, what other factors are involved besides Aviendha? Assuming that, in the future she saw, she didn't have the advantage of foresight. Obviously she's going to do something to try to change it. But what else was different?

For one thing, Mat wasn't even mentioned. Assuming that Aviendha saw the most likely future at the point she touched the columns...well, consider how terribly bad the odds were for Mat when he entered Ghenjei. And while Moiraine and Mat are obviously important, there are loopholes. Rand would almost surely fail without Moiraine, meaning there's a small chance he could do it without her. And as for Mat, the Eelfinn seemed very excited about Mat becoming the "center of everything", as if it wasn't all that certain he would.

I think what the Aviendha vision does more than anything is throw a completely different perspective on the prophecies. It shows us that they can be fulfilled in various ways. For example, the prophecy that the Aiel are going to take back their places of old. How was that fulfilled in the future Aviendha saw? Perhaps only by the Aiel having served Lews Therin, or Rand. The last Aes Sedai from the Age of Legends. But it's probably going to have a much more profound fulfillment in the actual future.

NaeffOfDreams
03-26-2012, 11:49 AM
I think the biggest strength of this section, aside from the obvious worldbuilding coolness, is the indeterminate nature of it. If we could say for certain that it would/could be averted, then a lot of the emotional impact would be lost. Contrariwise, if we accept that there is nothing Aviendha can do, then all hope is lost and we may as well skip her sections in aMoL. But the fact that we really don't know what the future holds makes this section work beautifully, and I hope we don't find out. Aviendha sums it up nicely in ToM, Ch. 49 Court of the Sun
"Can I change it?" she asked.
If I can't, she thought, will that stop me from trying?

As an aside and disclaimer, my absolute favorite parts of the series are the ones that take place outside the chronology of the main story. Both Rhuidean glass column runs, Rand's Portal Stone montage in Worlds That Might Be from TGH, and even some of Mat's old memories. Of course, I'm a sucker for short stories and works that drop the reader in with no map or guidebook (did somebody say Malazan?).

Zombie Sammael
03-26-2012, 12:26 PM
I think the biggest strength of this section, aside from the obvious worldbuilding coolness, is the indeterminate nature of it. If we could say for certain that it would/could be averted, then a lot of the emotional impact would be lost. Contrariwise, if we accept that there is nothing Aviendha can do, then all hope is lost and we may as well skip her sections in aMoL. But the fact that we really don't know what the future holds makes this section work beautifully, and I hope we don't find out. Aviendha sums it up nicely in ToM, Ch. 49 Court of the Sun


As an aside and disclaimer, my absolute favorite parts of the series are the ones that take place outside the chronology of the main story. Both Rhuidean glass column runs, Rand's Portal Stone montage in Worlds That Might Be from TGH, and even some of Mat's old memories. Of course, I'm a sucker for short stories and works that drop the reader in with no map or guidebook (did somebody say Malazan?).

I agree that once you accept the future will change, the sense of overwhelming dread is lessened. However, I think that is counter-balanced by curiosity as to what Avi will do to change the future, and the knowledge that she could, in her ignorance, accidentally unleash a future that is even worse. Prophecy is a whore with teeth, after all.

Terez
03-26-2012, 02:10 PM
I really, really doubt it will be left hanging completely. At least one thing will happen that is verifiably different.

Zombie Sammael
03-26-2012, 02:32 PM
I really, really doubt it will be left hanging completely. At least one thing will happen that is verifiably different.

As I understand your interpretation of the "Three in the boat" prophecy(s), doesn't Avi's future actually fail to fulfil some of the Prophecies of the Dragon? I'm thinking specifically of the idea that Tarmon Gai'don has to literally be the Last Battle (for a good long time). In Avi's future there were battles only a few years after it. Please set me straight if I'm misinterpreting you.

Terez
03-26-2012, 06:06 PM
As I understand your interpretation of the "Three in the boat" prophecy(s), doesn't Avi's future actually fail to fulfil some of the Prophecies of the Dragon? I'm thinking specifically of the idea that Tarmon Gai'don has to literally be the Last Battle (for a good long time). In Avi's future there were battles only a few years after it. Please set me straight if I'm misinterpreting you.
It's not my interpretation that presents the logical inconsistency. It's the standard interpretation. And it's Nicola's Foretelling, not the KC. "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade." In Aviendha's vision of the future, the Last Battle was certainly an end to the battle between the Seanchan and the Randlanders. The land was still divided by the Return, so that fits. But why wouldn't they be done with battle, and why would the future still be balanced on the edge of a blade? In other words, there is a logical inconsistency if you believe that 'great battle' refers to the Last Battle. If you believe it refers to something else, then there's no problem really.

Zombie Sammael
03-26-2012, 06:37 PM
It's not my interpretation that presents the logical inconsistency. It's the standard interpretation. And it's Nicola's Foretelling, not the KC. "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade." In Aviendha's vision of the future, the Last Battle was certainly an end to the battle between the Seanchan and the Randlanders. The land was still divided by the Return, so that fits. But why wouldn't they be done with battle, and why would the future still be balanced on the edge of a blade? In other words, there is a logical inconsistency if you believe that 'great battle' refers to the Last Battle. If you believe it refers to something else, then there's no problem really.

You are right, sorry. I was misremembering your argument about that particular prophecy.

The Unreasoner
03-26-2012, 09:00 PM
Possible? It's all but guaranteed that that future will be changed. "Chekov's Prophecy".
lol. Yes, this was my thought. My point was that this possible future will not happen, not that it cannot happen.

Concerning the larger issue, I see the two groups of viewings as complementary. What Aviendha saw was what would happen unless something changed, ie that is where the True World is heading at the moment. But, the Mirror Worlds are different, and so are the viewings they generate. Since Mirror Worlds are created by branching out from various turning points, in a way the viewings experienced en route to Toman Head are every single impossible future from that given moment (Rand wasn't raised as an Aiel, for instance). So, if you think of it as some kind of mega-sudoku, the path demanded by the Wheel is seen by what isn't there. And this seems to be the case: Mat betrayed Rand, Rand always failed, Ingtar never found redemption. Perrin may have always lost himself in the Wolf, Verin may have always gone over in truth (or, a possible theoryette of mine: Verin may have always withheld the ter'angreal).

But Ingtar found redemption (as did Verin), Mat remained loyal, and Rand will succeed.

Cortar
03-26-2012, 09:39 PM
Related to this discussion:

"Why is the KC, other Aes Sedai prophesies, and the things Min see set in stand (they ARE going to happen) but then this viewing is changable?"

The Unreasoner
03-26-2012, 10:23 PM
My best guess is that this is closer to time travel and seeing the general future than it is to 'prophecy'. The pillars basically seemed to run a whole world simulation on fast forward, then just pass on some significant events that it registered. While 'prophecy' generally seems to predict only things that *must* be, events of such significance that the prophecies come to be of their own accord. The symbolic language may be computationally necessary, if the event predicted cannot yet be solved for with available info.

Terez
03-26-2012, 10:35 PM
Even dreams are only possibilities.

The Unreasoner
03-26-2012, 11:50 PM
Even dreams are only possibilities.

It's more like 'only dreams' than 'even dreams'. Only dreams and now (probably) the pillar viewings.

And I think it comes down to the way they are gathered. All of the absolute prophecies require a Talent and they are frequently highly symbolic (aelfinn, Min, foretellings). I think that anything that can be predicted with certainty demands a certain degree of inherent significance. Dreams (both Egwene and Perrin varieties) require Talents, are only slightly less spontaneous than the absolutes, and are also often symbolic, if generally less esoteric than the absolutes.

But the portal stone viewings and those of the pillars do not seem to require a special Talent, and are nether spontaneous nor symbolic. So it almost seems like some kind of bruteforced 'most probable outcome' generator, just with complementary results (1 most likely atm vs. Everything else). And as such, it is naturally not fixed. The level of preciscion that these non-symbolic predictions offer (and this includes Dreams, to some extent) comes at a price, and that price is accuracy/certainty.

Terez
03-27-2012, 07:15 AM
It's more like 'only dreams' than 'even dreams'. Only dreams and now (probably) the pillar viewings.
And the Rings of Rhuidean. Some types of prophecy are absolute; some aren't.

The Unreasoner
03-27-2012, 09:04 AM
Lol. Not exactly, obviously. And the question was about absolutes anyway. But it fits with the others I called complementary: it is literal as opposed to symbolic, arbitrarily available, and does not require any particular Talent. And it is (again) most similar to some kind of simulator, and isn't really prophetic. It's more like running every possible scenario for a rat in a maze (listing every possible outcome) and yet knowing nothing about the actual route the rat will ultimately take. Any prophetic elements are artificial, probably more the result of frequency analysis than anything. But it is of a feather with the other artificial propheciy generators: single most probable, every impossible, and now every possible (all calculated from a given moment, of course).

But back to your point: since it's showing multiple futures, there must be an AND or an OR between each. Since they (necessarily) contradict each other, it must be OR. Now here is where we seem to diverge: I think it is a massive and certain either-or prophecy, but you say it is just a possibility. I'm curious what you think the nature of these futures are. Why can't the rings simulate them? Is it a sort of stedding/blight/ToG thing? I assume, of course, that you aren't referring to a DO victory, as that is the bane of all prophecy.

Weird Harold
03-27-2012, 11:48 AM
It's more like 'only dreams' than 'even dreams'. Only dreams and now (probably) the pillar viewings.

And I think it comes down to the way they are gathered.


The Crystal Columns showed absolutely accurate and unchangeable episodes from the past. Assuming that they even can show the future. why would they suddenly show an alterable future?

Personally, I believe that Aviendha's second trip through the Crystal Columns was a hallucination/post-hypnotic suggestion and never really happened. Everything known and/or deduced about how the Crystal Columns worked prior to ToM suggests that the columns should NOT be able show the future OR any future shown would be as absolute as its depictions of the past.


Aviendha's encounter with Nakomi reads like a drug-enhanced or hypnotic interrogation and if Aviendha was interrogated in a hypnotic trance, then Nakomi had the means and opportunity to implant a suggestion.

Terez
03-27-2012, 12:31 PM
Lol. Not exactly, obviously.
No, exactly. Obviously.

The Crystal Columns showed absolutely accurate and unchangeable episodes from the past. Assuming that they even can show the future. why would they suddenly show an alterable future?
lol. It's quite simple. The past is not alterable. The future is alterable.

Davian93
03-27-2012, 12:50 PM
lol. It's quite simple. The past is not alterable. The future is alterable.


Well...it is if its a Dream prediction but not if its a Foretelling/Min Vision.

Which category does this fall into is the question.

Personally, I think it was the Dream variety of prediction, not a concrete THIS WILL HAPPEN fact.

neurotopia
03-27-2012, 02:04 PM
Min's visions can be altered, if the pattern is destroyed. I don't think any of the future should be construed as set.

Davian93
03-27-2012, 03:43 PM
Min's visions can be altered, if the pattern is destroyed. I don't think any of the future should be construed as set.

So can the Foretellings...we all know that. We're assuming a future where Rand triumphs at the Last Battle and the Pattern still exists.

Weird Harold
03-27-2012, 08:33 PM
The past is not alterable. The future is alterable.

That is arguable.

"The only difference between past and future is the direction you face on the Wheel" -- RJ

Your assertion is also irrelevant. It says nothing about predictive mechanisms, which are divided into absolute and probability modes. Foretelling, Min's Visions, the *Finn, and Prophesy are 'absolute' predictive mechanisms; Dreams, the testing rings (both) and similar mechanisms are 'Probability' mechanisms.

The Crystal Columns should not be the only example of a device that works in both modes.

Terez
03-27-2012, 09:04 PM
That is arguable.

"The only difference between past and future is the direction you face on the Wheel" -- RJ
This is only in terms of the overall shape of the Pattern.

Your assertion is also irrelevant.
No, it isn't. It's just the logical response to your irrational statement.

Oden
03-28-2012, 04:46 AM
My take on this is that what Aviendha saw was what happened 6 ages ago, that it was the last turning's fourth age.

Terez
03-28-2012, 05:28 AM
The details are never quite that close, though, from what I understand. You look at two different versions of the same Age from a distance, and they look pretty much the same. You look close up, details like names and faces are different.

GonzoTheGreat
03-28-2012, 05:38 AM
lol. It's quite simple. The past is not alterable.
If true, that raises a fairly large bunch of questions over what it is that balefire does.

Terez
03-28-2012, 07:33 AM
If true, that raises a fairly large bunch of questions over what it is that balefire does.
Well, it's alterable by balefire, but only on the order of seconds or minutes. Hours if it's really strong. We're talking about 3500 years of history here.

Grig
03-28-2012, 11:16 AM
The Crystal Columns should not be the only example of a device that works in both modes.

This doesn't matter, as you're making up the two modes out of whole cloth. They aren't separated out like that in canon. Why should a ter'angreal that can show Mirror World outcomes be unable to show outcomes (past or future) that are part of the Real world? They're all linked.

Weird Harold
03-28-2012, 12:12 PM
This doesn't matter, as you're making up the two modes out of whole cloth. They aren't separated out like that in canon.

We know from various RJ interviews and signing reports that there are visions of the future that are absolute and there are visions of the future that are mutable. How am I making that up out of whole cloth?

Can you give any example of any method or device that gives both absolute and mutable predictions?

Ter'angreal are more limited than people. A person might be a Dreamer with access to "what might be" and also have a Foretelling Talent with access to "What Will Be," but expecting a ter'angreal to have multiple access is like expecting your blender to receive FM Stereo.

Terez
03-28-2012, 01:01 PM
Can you give any example of any method or device that gives both absolute and mutable predictions?
Min's viewings. Most of them are absolute; some present options. Same goes for dreams, and probably the Rings of Rhuidean, the latter of which showed Aviendha at least one unalterable scenario (Rand), and Moiraine at least one mutable scenario (Ghenjei).

Cortar
03-28-2012, 01:56 PM
Min's viewings. Most of them are absolute; some present options. Same goes for dreams, and probably the Rings of Rhuidean, the latter of which showed Aviendha at least one unalterable scenario (Rand), and Moiraine at least one mutable scenario (Ghenjei).

Are you sure those two situations are different? I think given those characters personalities and the times at which they entered the rings, both presented "options."

It just so happened that all of Aviendha's options end with Rand, because she wouldn't do anything so drastic to change that future, while Moriane on the other hand would pretty much do anything to keep Rand on the right path.

Grig
03-28-2012, 02:19 PM
We know from various RJ interviews and signing reports that there are visions of the future that are absolute and there are visions of the future that are mutable. How am I making that up out of whole cloth?

You're making up the idea that those are meaningful metaphysical conditions out of whole cloth, making them things that ter'angreal have to pick and choose which one of the two they can do. This makes no more sense than assuming that people with predictive power can only have viewings that will happen or viewings that may happen but not both, such as Terez's provided exmaples of Min and Egwene's predictive capability. Hell, there's even a branch allowed in Prophecy, as seen with the Borderlanders and Rand in ToM.

There are true statements and there are false statements. There are even statements that might be true or false. That doesn't mean any given person can only say things that are true or false, but not maybe one or the other (even though it's clearly self-evident that there are both true statements and false statements, and statements which might become true or false in the future). And it's a poor assumption to make. Same with declaring that objects of the power can only do one or the other. We know that there's a sort of multiverse that can be traversed by Portal Stones, that access other possible worlds. Yet they can also access the "true" world.

Cortar
03-28-2012, 02:45 PM
The details are never quite that close, though, from what I understand. You look at two different versions of the same Age from a distance, and they look pretty much the same. You look close up, details like names and faces are different.

I was under the impression that there were a lot more things different from age to age other than just the tiny details likes names and faces.

Terez
03-28-2012, 04:17 PM
Are you sure those two situations are different? I think given those characters personalities and the times at which they entered the rings, both presented "options."
Pretty sure she had no option. The rings showed her she would fall in love; she fought it as hard as she could, but it still happened.

Terez
03-28-2012, 04:18 PM
I was under the impression that there were a lot more things different from age to age other than just the tiny details likes names and faces.
I didn't say names and faces were the only different details did I?

Cortar
03-28-2012, 05:58 PM
Pretty sure she had no option. The rings showed her she would fall in love; she fought it as hard as she could, but it still happened.

I mean, she fought as hard as SHE could as Aviendha. I don't think for example, she would ever kill herself without just cause (enough toh) but I imagine if she were the kind of person who would, then the rings might have shown her that.

My point is that, given what kind of person she is, there were no set of circumstances that would lead her to not falling in love with Rand. She could just run away from the Aiel and join the Tinkers and probably never see Rand, and thus not fall in love with her, but we know she wouldn't do that.

I didn't say names and faces were the only different details did I?
Oh sorry, I misread your comment and took it a wrong way. My apologies.

Terez
03-28-2012, 06:41 PM
I mean, she fought as hard as SHE could as Aviendha. I don't think for example, she would ever kill herself without just cause (enough toh) but I imagine if she were the kind of person who would, then the rings might have shown her that.

My point is that, given what kind of person she is, there were no set of circumstances that would lead her to not falling in love with Rand. She could just run away from the Aiel and join the Tinkers and probably never see Rand, and thus not fall in love with her, but we know she wouldn't do that.
And Rand could have killed Lanfear. But Moiraine only saw three options, and that wasn't one of them.

Cortar
03-28-2012, 06:59 PM
And Rand could have killed Lanfear. But Moiraine only saw three options, and that wasn't one of them.

I am not arguing that it was impossible for Rand to kill Lanfear, but if you ran the situation over 100,000 (or even infinity) in none of those would Rand choose to kill her given the circumstances.

Terez
03-28-2012, 07:17 PM
I am not arguing that it was impossible for Rand to kill Lanfear, but if you ran the situation over 100,000 (or even infinity) in none of those would Rand choose to kill her given the circumstances.
And in none of those would Aviendha not fall in love with Rand. How hard is that to understand?

Toss the dice
03-28-2012, 10:06 PM
I don't know if this has been said already, but maybe Tuon is still alive as of the "17 yrs after" POV. Maybe Tuon stepped down from being Empress, or something similar. Still alive, but also the former Empress. Hell, I would almost consider it surprising if something like that DIDN'T happen eventually, with Mat as her husband, whether it be voluntarily, unwillingly, or otherwise.

Is there anything that would shoot that theory down?

Cortar
03-29-2012, 12:53 AM
I don't know if this has been said already, but maybe Tuon is still alive as of the "17 yrs after" POV. Maybe Tuon stepped down from being Empress, or something similar. Still alive, but also the former Empress. Hell, I would almost consider it surprising if something like that DIDN'T happen eventually, with Mat as her husband, whether it be voluntarily, unwillingly, or otherwise.

Is there anything that would shoot that theory down?

Yes, that doesn't happen in empires. Plus the new emperess would have her killed bc she is a threat to the throne.

And in none of those would Aviendha not fall in love with Rand. How hard is that to understand?

??? Im so confused. This is what I am saying. I agree with this statement. This means that the rings showed Aviendha and Moirane the same kind of future.

Weird Harold
03-29-2012, 02:04 AM
... things that ter'angreal have to pick and choose which one of the two they can do. This makes no more sense than assuming that people with predictive power can only have viewings that will happen or viewings that may happen but not both, such as Terez's provided exmaples ....

What people can do is irrelevant to what ter'angreal are made to do. The overwhelming majority, if not all, ter'angreal are made to fulfill a single task or purpose. It is a matter of cost effectiveness and engineering; multipurpose/multi-mode tools cost more, are more difficult to manufacture and seldom do any task as well as a dedicated single-purpose tool.

The Crystal Columns ter'angreal was constructed for the purpose of showing Aiel leaders what DID happen to their ancestors -- ancestors specific to each candidate rather than generalized "ancestors." It makes no cost-effectiveness or engineering sense to build into the columns an ability to show "what might be" as well.

IF the Columns are able to show the future, they should show a future as absolute as the past.

GonzoTheGreat
03-29-2012, 05:19 AM
I don't know if this has been said already, but maybe Tuon is still alive as of the "17 yrs after" POV. Maybe Tuon stepped down from being Empress, or something similar. Still alive, but also the former Empress. Hell, I would almost consider it surprising if something like that DIDN'T happen eventually, with Mat as her husband, whether it be voluntarily, unwillingly, or otherwise.

Is there anything that would shoot that theory down?
Two things, at least. Both of which can be summed up with Bilbo's answer to Gollum: 'Time! Time!'

1. The Empress is ordinarily succeeded by one of her children, or maybe grandchildren. Unless Tuon has a big surprise waiting for Mat, she would be unlikely to have a child that could have taken over a significant period before that "17 years later" point.

2. The continued Seanchan references to "the Empress, may she live forever" suggest very strongly that being Empress is a job for life.

Davian93
03-29-2012, 08:43 AM
Maybe the Seanchan Empire splits in that future with Tuon/Mat going back to reconquer Seanchan and Galgan (or another High Blood) taking over the Randland proper forces in their own empire...

It makes no cost-effectiveness or engineering sense to build into the columns an ability to show "what might be" as well.


Easy answer to that...this was a government contract during wartime...the Randland equivalent of Lockheed Martin probably built that into it as a way of driving up their billing hours for the job. My guess is that the final project was probably billions and billions of Crowns over budget and there were probably inquiries into graft and malfeasance as a result of this boondoggle.

Seth Baker
03-29-2012, 10:51 AM
1. The Empress is ordinarily succeeded by one of her children, or maybe grandchildren. Unless Tuon has a big surprise waiting for Mat, she would be unlikely to have a child that could have taken over a significant period before that "17 years later" point.

Bingo. Highly doubtful that it's Tuon or Tuon's child that's on the throne now. Someone else very likely ascended.

Grig
03-29-2012, 11:22 AM
What people can do is irrelevant to what ter'angreal are made to do.

And what ter'angreal are made to do is almost irrelevant to what ter'angreal can do, especially when you add someone tinkering with them in the OP. We have many examples of ter'angreal being used "off the label". And no reason to believe that someone making a ter'angreal to show outcomes or possibilities has to choose whether to show "real" ones or "changable" ones at design/implemenatation time (which is the whole assertion I was arguing in the first place). Quit moving the goalposts if you want people to play with you.

Going past that assertion, we don't even know that the glass columns were custom-made for the Aiel. We don't know exactly when they were created, by whom, or why. Much like the Accepted/Aes Sedai test ter'angreal. The most we can say is that one of the Aes Sedai originally at Rhuidean configured them to show the past scenario that they did until they changed when Aviendha touched them.

Weird Harold
03-29-2012, 02:17 PM
And what ter'angreal are made to do is almost irrelevant to what ter'angreal can do, ...

OK, now you're just refusing to see the point. I'm done.

Grig
03-29-2012, 05:11 PM
OK, now you're just refusing to see the point. I'm done.

The feeling is mutual.

Terez
03-29-2012, 09:50 PM
??? Im so confused. This is what I am saying. I agree with this statement. This means that the rings showed Aviendha and Moirane the same kind of future.
This conversation started, if you recall, with your insistence that the rings must have shown Aviendha more than one option for that situation. I'm saying it didn't. The rings showed her she would fall in love with Rand. Absolute prophecy. She wasn't given a choice.

Terez
03-30-2012, 12:31 AM
What people can do is irrelevant to what ter'angreal are made to do. The overwhelming majority, if not all, ter'angreal are made to fulfill a single task or purpose. It is a matter of cost effectiveness and engineering; multipurpose/multi-mode tools cost more, are more difficult to manufacture and seldom do any task as well as a dedicated single-purpose tool.

The Crystal Columns ter'angreal was constructed for the purpose of showing Aiel leaders what DID happen to their ancestors -- ancestors specific to each candidate rather than generalized "ancestors." It makes no cost-effectiveness or engineering sense to build into the columns an ability to show "what might be" as well.
The ter'angreal was created for the purpose of preserving the Aiel.

"What do you want?" Mandein demanded.

"You." Dermon ran his eyes across the Aiel, making that one word fit them all. "Whoever would lead among you must come to Rhuidean and learn where we came from, and why you do not carry swords. Who cannot learn, will not live."

"Your Wise Ones have spoken to you," Mordaine said, "or you would not be here. You know the cost to those who refuse."The purpose of the ter'angreal is to help the Aiel remember who they were. If they do not remember that, they will be destroyed.

IF the Columns are able to show the future, they should show a future as absolute as the past.
That's just silly. The columns, again, showed Aviendha the most likely future at the moment she touched the columns. The most likely future being, at this point, that the Aiel will continue to see themselves as warriors after the Last Battle, despite the fact that the Car'a'carn wants the land to have peace. We saw clues in TOM that it will be the Aiel who demand to be immune to the terms of the Peace. That is what Aviendha has to change, if she wants to save the Aiel.

Weird Harold
03-30-2012, 02:02 AM
The ter'angreal was created for the purpose of preserving the Aiel.

The purpose of the ter'angreal is to help the Aiel remember who they were. If they do not remember that, they will be destroyed.

The Columns could have shown possible pasts and accomplished the purpose of the Jenn Aiel/Aes Sedai -- much as the portal stones showed all the ways Rand could have failed. The purpose of "Preserving the Aiel" could have been accomplished with the Rhuidean testing rings -- as, in part, they do for the Wise Ones.

The Crystal Columns were constructed to preserve the Aiel's knowledge of their past by showing an absolute, immutable, vision of events. It is a massive and, undoubtedly, complex machine; why would its maker add even more complexity to it to show a mutable future once every couple of thousand years? Especially when there was at least one other ter'angreal in Rhuidean that already showed mutable futures to Aiel leadership candidates.

The Crystal Columns showing a mutable future -- or any future at all -- is just one additional reason to doubt that the "future" seen by Aviendha had any relationship to reality at all.

Terez
03-30-2012, 04:05 AM
The Columns could have shown possible pasts and accomplished the purpose of the Jenn Aiel/Aes Sedai -- much as the portal stones showed all the ways Rand could have failed.
It could have, but the purpose of the ter'angreal was to help the Aiel remember where they came from, not to show them what might have been. They haven't made any mistakes that should have been averted thus far; they've fulfilled their purpose. They have preserved the memory of who they were, and the Three-fold Land has helped to shape them into what Rand requires for the Last Battle. What Aviendha saw has to do with the future of the Aiel more than it has to do with winning the Last Battle...but both functions of the ter'angreal serve the same ultimate purpose.

The purpose of "Preserving the Aiel" could have been accomplished with the Rhuidean testing rings -- as, in part, they do for the Wise Ones.The Rings only show the future, and they work for anyone. The Columns were made for the Aiel, and work only for the Aiel, and they show the past to help the Aiel remember who they are and where they came from.

The Crystal Columns were constructed to preserve the Aiel's knowledge of their past by showing an absolute, immutable, vision of events. It is a massive and, undoubtedly, complex machine; why would its maker add even more complexity to it to show a mutable future once every couple of thousand years?Because it serves the same purpose - the preservation of the Aiel. The Acceptatron shows past, future, and present. None of them are real, but there are bits of reality in it that don't come from the mind of the testee.

Especially when there was at least one other ter'angreal in Rhuidean that already showed mutable futures to Aiel leadership candidates.The Rings show mutable futures that are specific to one person's thread. Aviendha did not see anything relevant to anything after her own death, and most of what she saw, she did not explicitly remember. The crystal columns are specific to one person's bloodline. The past is already written; the future can only be deduced via the Mirrors of the Wheel. Some aspects of the future are more certain than others, clearly.

The Crystal Columns showing a mutable future -- or any future at all -- is just one additional reason to doubt that the "future" seen by Aviendha had any relationship to reality at all.You're making a pretty big logical leap there. What would be the point of showing her a future that has no relationship to reality? Just because the columns showed her the most likely future does not mean that it is not alterable. It just means that, were Aviendha not given the gift of this foresight, this is how things would go. Since she was given that foresight, things will go differently. How differently remains to be seen.

Clearly the ter'angreal was designed to serve as a warning at the proper time. Perhaps there was a Foretelling. It may be that Aviendha is the first person to whom it occurred to touch the columns at all. Perhaps that's because she is the first person to go to Rhuidean since Rand revealed what he had seen there. It was old news to her, and she felt disappointed (which seems odd, since you'd think she'd enjoy seeing the past regardless, but whatever). And since she happens to have the ability to read ter'angreal, she thought she might at least learn something about it. Perhaps that was Foretold as well.

Zombie Sammael
03-30-2012, 05:55 AM
How about this: the columns' intervention, by the very act of showing Avi the future, is an act which alters the future which she was shown. It's cause and effect really; while Aviendha retains free will, it's very unlikely she will choose the option of doing nothing and letting the future unfold as it would even if she hadn't been shown. In fact, the ter'angreal actually does its best to preclude this by not showing her the immediate future, only long-term consequences, thus forcing her to act out of free will and not giving her a playbook for what she's meant to do. Thus, by the time the columns have shown Aviendha that future, it's already dead; it's already been changed. When you think about it this way, the columns are showing past futures, which isn't too different from their original purpose of showing the past.

Cortar
03-30-2012, 11:43 AM
How about this: the columns' intervention, by the very act of showing Avi the future, is an act which alters the future which she was shown. It's cause and effect really; while Aviendha retains free will, it's very unlikely she will choose the option of doing nothing and letting the future unfold as it would even if she hadn't been shown. In fact, the ter'angreal actually does its best to preclude this by not showing her the immediate future, only long-term consequences, thus forcing her to act out of free will and not giving her a playbook for what she's meant to do. Thus, by the time the columns have shown Aviendha that future, it's already dead; it's already been changed. When you think about it this way, the columns are showing past futures, which isn't too different from their original purpose of showing the past.

But this is completely different from how viewings of the future normally work in Randland. Take Min's viewings for example: sometimes they only happen because Min tells someone about them.

This conversation started, if you recall, with your insistence that the rings must have shown Aviendha more than one option for that situation. I'm saying it didn't. The rings showed her she would fall in love with Rand. Absolute prophecy. She wasn't given a choice.

I am saying they could have shown her many options, but none of them were ones where she didn't fall in love with Rand because that future wasn't possible unless she did something completely out of character.

Zombie Sammael
03-30-2012, 12:29 PM
But this is completely different from how viewings of the future normally work in Randland. Take Min's viewings for example: sometimes they only happen because Min tells someone about them.

It's not really completely different. It's more like the inverse. I don't really see there's much distinction between showing what was and what could have been. The alternative is that the Crystal Prophecy is as inevitable as all the other prophecies in Randland. Narrative consistency dictates that it should not be; otherwise, there would be no point in showing it to us (other than as a complete dick move on BS's part). Further, the prophecy in the Crystal Pillars is actually given in a totally different way to how normal prophecy comes about. Normal prophecy is given either through dreaming or foretelling, both of which are, whilst ambiguous and symbolic, directly imperative. Min's visions very occasionally show things as possibilities (just as they only very occasionally show her own future) but more often fit into this category. On the other hand, visions seen through ter'angreal tend to focus more on possibilities; the testing rings, the Rhuidean rings, and the Portal Stones all fit into this category. I suggest that the crystal pillars do too.

Weird Harold
03-30-2012, 02:00 PM
The Crystal Columns showing a mutable future -- or any future at all -- is just one additional reason to doubt that the "future" seen by Aviendha had any relationship to reality at all.

You're making a pretty big logical leap there. What would be the point of showing her a future that has no relationship to reality? Just because the columns showed her ...

That's just it. I don't think the columns showed her anything on the second trip through them she never took! I think Aviendha's "second trip" was a post-hypnotic suggestion implanted by Nakomi to induce Aviendha to take some action inimical to Rand's success.

Aviendha's bouts of lucidity during Nakomi's interrogation made it unlikely that a direct post-hypnotic suggestion associated with Nakomi would work; a plausible vision from a source the Aiel consider infallible would 'take' where a direct command might not.

Terez
03-30-2012, 02:05 PM
Right. Now we're talking about several leaps.

Affodell
07-07-2012, 05:44 PM
Echoing several people here: the columns only can logically show the possible future based on how events are working currently in the natural timeline.
This future would be the most likely one at that moment because (I believe?) Rand was still blind and the (corrupt) Seanchan prophecies were the most likely to come true (him kneeling before the Seanchan, etc).
After he regains his sight, the future depicted would have to be different but much like the A/Elfinn doors, she could only go through it once (once being past oriented, once being future oriented); her meddling with the columns changed their inherent nature. Her knowledge now serves to warn him of the true danger of trusting the Seanchan, though, as a side note, he probably has them bound to him via Mat now so that is less of a pressing issue.

Weird Harold
07-07-2012, 07:40 PM
...her meddling with the columns changed their inherent nature. ...

How so? Are you suggesting that the Columns now only show improbable futures?

Aviendha didn't provide any sort of command or guidance when she tried to determine how the columns worked. If she changed the essential nature of the columns, where did the pattern for the new nature come from. Can it be trusted?

If the Columns did indeed change function, the nature of the change came from within the Columns themselves in response to a trigger event -- eg Aviendha's touch. That means that the inherent capability for whatever new nature or function she triggered must have been present within the Columns from their construction.

Of course, Aviendha can hallucinate whatever improbabilities her mind can imagine, be it an improbable future or an improbable function for the Columns.

ETA: Welcome to Theorylland. Check out the New Users forum and introduce yourself.

Lupusdeusest
07-08-2012, 02:01 AM
How so? Are you suggesting that the Columns now only show improbable futures?

Aviendha didn't provide any sort of command or guidance when she tried to determine how the columns worked. If she changed the essential nature of the columns, where did the pattern for the new nature come from. Can it be trusted?

If the Columns did indeed change function, the nature of the change came from within the Columns themselves in response to a trigger event -- eg Aviendha's touch. That means that the inherent capability for whatever new nature or function she triggered must have been present within the Columns from their construction.

Of course, Aviendha can hallucinate whatever improbabilities her mind can imagine, be it an improbable future or an improbable function for the Columns.



By viewing the future, she changed it. I believe that is what they are getting at.

Weird Harold
07-08-2012, 05:39 AM
By viewing the future, she changed it. I believe that is what they are getting at.
You're ignoring the assertion I questioned:
...her meddling with the columns changed their inherent nature. ...

Affodell asserted that Aviendha changed the columns inherent nature. Nothing was said about changing the future.

Ishara
07-08-2012, 11:38 AM
Well, before she touched them they showed the past; after she touched them, they showed the future. I would say that is a change in their inherent nature, but then I know that you and I disagree on that front.

Terez
07-08-2012, 11:42 AM
Whatever she did, it was mostly likely a part of the design, so she didn't change the 'inherent' nature of it. And there's nothing to say it won't continue to work the same way; ter'angreal have person-recognition skills, hence certain ones only working once for any particular person.

Ishara
07-09-2012, 08:28 AM
I think we'll just have to agree to continue disagreeing. If they've been doing the exact same thing, without fail, for millenia and then start to do something different then I say that's a fair argument for somehting changing its inherent nature.

That said, nothing Aviendha did was done with any conscious intent, therefore I do agree that the pillars could have changed to a perhaps intended function programmed into them when they were created.

I also agree that the pillars could have done this anomolous action just for her and that it may never occur again, and this ter'angreal clearly is person-specific, so that supports that perspective. But again, that second walk through the pillars is anomolous to anything that happened in them for millenia, so I would see that as a fundemental change - especially if it never does it again.

Regardless, we can all agree it was wierd. :)

Weird Harold
07-09-2012, 04:05 PM
If they've been doing the exact same thing, without fail, for millenia and then start to do something different then I say that's a fair argument for something changing its inherent nature.

I think your disagreement hinges on a differing definition of "Inherent." Aviendha's second trip through the columns conformed to the same style and format of the past operations; the only difference is the time frame shown. (If it had been one of Aviendha's descendants passing through the columns, the views would be entirely consistent with the previously known operation.)

I don't happen to believe that the columns changed even that much, but the observed change is consistent with Aviendha's knowledge of what the Columns do; there is no inherent change visible.

maleshub
07-09-2012, 04:39 PM
Circumstantial evidence:
- The ter'angreal changed after branding the Car'a'carn.
- Aviendha was bonded to Rand when she entered the first time
- She channeled at the ter'angreal then went through the second time and found a new experience.

It is a stretch and I might be missing more circumstantial stuff, but could the change be due to a trigger by branding the Car'a'carn, or by the bond Aviendha shared with him?

Daemin
07-11-2012, 10:55 AM
Circumstantial evidence:
- The ter'angreal changed after branding the Car'a'carn.
- Aviendha was bonded to Rand when she entered the first time
- She channeled at the ter'angreal then went through the second time and found a new experience.

It is a stretch and I might be missing more circumstantial stuff, but could the change be due to a trigger by branding the Car'a'carn, or by the bond Aviendha shared with him?

Something to note is that in the future she saw, its implied that they still use Rhudien to select clan chiefs, which implies that the columns still retain their original function.

In one of the visions, its mentioned that since the Senchan took Rhudien, the Aiel were no longer sure how to choose chiefs.

GonzoTheGreat
07-11-2012, 11:15 AM
Side issue:
If Rand is reborn once again as an Aiel, would he once again be doubly-marked if he went through the ter'angreal?

Bonus question:
Did it react to Rand's specific soul, or to the fact that he was a man capable of channeling?
At the time, any Aiel who discovered that he possessed this ability would happily skip off to go kill the DO, rather than be send to Rhuidean. So Rand was probably the first candidate who could channel saidin at the time of passing through the ter'angreal.

WinespringBrother
07-11-2012, 01:00 PM
Side issue:
If Rand is reborn once again as an Aiel, would he once again be doubly-marked if he went through the ter'angreal?

Bonus question:
Did it react to Rand's specific soul, or to the fact that he was a man capable of channeling?
At the time, any Aiel who discovered that he possessed this ability would happily skip off to go kill the DO, rather than be send to Rhuidean. So Rand was probably the first candidate who could channel saidin at the time of passing through the ter'angreal.

When the wheel revolves fully around to the 3rd age, and the Aiel again live in the Waste, than he will be again double-marked, as from that turning's prophecy.

Bonus answer: It's funny that there were times before Rand even knew for sure that he was Aiel that he wanted to go off to Shayol Ghul, just like those Aiel channelers.

Dragon Reborn CH: 5 - Nightmares Walking
"Who told you that?" Moiraine said sharply. "If you could get me to Shayol Ghul now," Rand said drowsily, "by Waygate or Portal Stone, there could be an end to it. No more dying. No more dreams. No more."

However, I think there is another option that you left out. His ta'veren nature could have made the ter'angreal work for him.

GonzoTheGreat
07-11-2012, 01:08 PM
However, I think there is another option that you left out. His ta'veren nature could have made the ter'angreal work for him.
I suspect that there were ta'veren wannabe-clan-chiefs before Rand. Probably not many, and not as strongly as he, but even one would seriously mess up the system.

Weird Harold
07-11-2012, 08:10 PM
Side issue:
If Rand is reborn once again as an Aiel, would he once again be doubly-marked if he went through the ter'angreal?

Probably not.

Bonus question:
Did it react to Rand's specific soul, or to the fact that he was a man capable of channeling?


The Columns probably reacted to Rand's specific ancestry. Among other things, he was the first "half-breed" ever submitted to the columns. Rand reborn as an Aiel wouldn't have the ancestry Prophecied for the Car'A'Carn and wouldn't get the double dragons.

maleshub
07-11-2012, 09:55 PM
The Columns probably reacted to Rand's specific ancestry. Among other things, he was the first "half-breed" ever submitted to the columns. Rand reborn as an Aiel wouldn't have the ancestry Prophecied for the Car'A'Carn and wouldn't get the double dragons.

"Born of the blood"

I thought it was hinted that Tigraine is from Rhea's ancestory (the Aiel carried away by the bandits in Rand's visions). If so, does that make Rand "half-breed?"

Weird Harold
07-11-2012, 10:57 PM
"Born of the blood"

I thought it was hinted that Tigraine is from Rhea's ancestory (the Aiel carried away by the bandits in Rand's visions). If so, does that make Rand "half-breed?"

Rhea is way distant in Rand's ancestry, so he's maybe 50.0000000000000000001% Aiel. :D The Pattern manipulated events and lineages to give Rand a unique ancestry -- a 3000+ year long breeding program to produce the "son of a maiden born on the slopes of Dragonmount," among fulfilling other prophecies about his birth.

sleepinghour
07-12-2012, 01:50 PM
One interesting but forgotten detail is that before Aviendha left for Rhuidean, Elayne gave her Verin's dream ter'angreal as well as an angreal from the Ebou Dar stash.

"Come, Aviendha, we must go," Dorindha said.
"Wait," Elayne told them. "Please wait, just a moment." Clutching the dagger, she raced to her dressing room. Sephanie paused in hanging up Aviendha's blue dress to curtsy, but Elayne ignored her and opened the carved lid of her ivory jewelry chest. Sitting atop the necklaces and bracelets and pins in their compartments were a brooch in the shape of a turtle that appeared to be amber and a seated woman, wrapped in her own hair, apparently carved from age-darkened ivory. Both were angreal. Placing the antler-hilted dagger in the chest, she picked up the turtle, and then, impulsively, snatched up the twisted stone dream ring, all red and blue and brown.
[...]
"These are for you," Elayne said, pressing the ring and the brooch into her sister's hand. “Not as gifts, I'm afraid. The White Tower will want them back. But to use as you need."
—KoD ch 15


It was mentioned in LoC ch 52 that Elayne and Nynaeve had brought Verin's ring to Ebou Dar, after which they went straight to Caemlyn, so we know that the original ring ter'angreal was still in her possession at that point.

Furthermore, Elayne's own copies didn't have the same colors as the original ring: "She was not sure how to reproduce the original's red, blue and brown." So the dream ring she gave Aviendha, described as "all red and blue and brown," almost certainly was the original from Verin and not one of Elayne's flawed copies.

However, Brandon seems to have have missed this since Verin's ring was said to be with the Sitters in TGS before it was stolen by Sheriam.

[Siuan] would have liked to have the original ring, but that was carefully kept by the Sitters.
—TGS ch 8

Egwene clenched her teeth, thinking of Sheriam's final spilled confessions. The theft of the ter'angreal had been far from the most shocking tidbit she'd mentioned. Elayne would be livid; the original ring had been among those stolen, and Egwene doubted that Siuan's hidden copy would be useful as a template. It was already flawed; copies of it would likely be more imperfect."
—TGS ch 45

This was later corrected in the ebook edition (see below), but the ring and angreal still weren't mentioned in any of Aviendha's POVs.

Egwene clenched her teeth, thinking of Sheriam's final spilled confessions. The theft of the ter'angreal had been far from the most shocking tidbit she’d mentioned. Elayne would be livid; she had made all of the copies that were stolen. While none of her copies worked as well as the original, they worked well enough. She would not be happy that they were in the hands of a Forsaken.
—TGS ebook edition ch 45


If Aviendha brought Verin's ring to Rhuidean, there's certainly a possibility of it influencing the ter'angreal there in the same way that it interfered with the Acceptatron during Egwene's test in TDR. That would throw some doubt on the veracity of her visions. However, the fact that Brandon apparently forgot that Aviendha had Verin's ring suggests that it probably wasn't responsible for what happened in Rhuidean.

GonzoTheGreat
07-13-2012, 04:11 AM
However, the fact that Brandon apparently forgot that Aviendha had Verin's ring suggests that it probably wasn't responsible for what happened in Rhuidean.
On the other hand, if RJ had planned that episode, and he was also responsible for Elayne giving the ring to Aviendha, then it is possible that this resonance was indeed meant as the explanation for what happened, even if BS had overlooked that.

Terez
07-13-2012, 04:25 AM
On the other hand, if RJ had planned that episode, and he was also responsible for Elayne giving the ring to Aviendha, then it is possible that this resonance was indeed meant as the explanation for what happened, even if BS had overlooked that.
+1

It might seem like odd Gonzo-logic to us, but similar things have happened in Brandon's books.

Landro
07-13-2012, 09:00 AM
Rhea is way distant in Rand's ancestry, so he's maybe 50.0000000000000000001% Aiel. :D The Pattern manipulated events and lineages to give Rand a unique ancestry -- a 3000+ year long breeding program to produce the "son of a maiden born on the slopes of Dragonmount," among fulfilling other prophecies about his birth.

Kwisatz Haderach?

GonzoTheGreat
07-13-2012, 09:06 AM
Kwisatz Haderach?
So Rand was actually born one generation too soon? :p

Landro
07-13-2012, 10:24 AM
So Rand was actually born one generation too soon? :p

Tigraine did it out of love for Janduin :p

Terez
07-13-2012, 11:13 AM
I think we'll just have to agree to continue disagreeing.
This doesn't mean anything.

If they've been doing the exact same thing, without fail, for millenia and then start to do something different then I say that's a fair argument for somehting changing its inherent nature.Except that we know the purpose they were made for in the first place—the preservation of the Aiel tradition—and this fits exactly along with it. The ability was always there; the ter'angreal would have had to have been designed to touch the Mirror Worlds in some way in order to access those Mirror Worlds. It's very doubtful that anything Aviendha did gave it that access.

But again, that second walk through the pillars is anomolous to anything that happened in them for millenia, so I would see that as a fundemental change - especially if it never does it again.It's not a fundamental change in the ter'angreal just because it performs a limited function on top of a usual function. The only thing that changed was the way it was used.

Weird Harold
07-13-2012, 11:15 AM
Kwisatz Haderach? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwisatz_Haderach)

Nope.

The Bene Gesserit were a human organization with human fallibility. Rand was a product of the Wheel and Pattern, which are inhuman and (virtually) infallible.

maleshub
07-13-2012, 03:38 PM
Rhea is way distant in Rand's ancestry, so he's maybe 50.0000000000000000001% Aiel. :D The Pattern manipulated events and lineages to give Rand a unique ancestry -- a 3000+ year long breeding program to produce the "son of a maiden born on the slopes of Dragonmount," among fulfilling other prophecies about his birth.

That's not how the Andoran houses calculate their bloodline back to Ishara. After one thousand years, some have 30+ lines to Ishara.

It would need someone with a better background in genetics. But in a medieval society where marriage inside clan was the norm, the bloodline would not lessen over time. Bloodlines would continue to mix. Evidence is how Tigraine had some Aiel features: red hair, was tall, etc. (or am I mistaken in her description?)

So, Rand would not be 50.0000000001. He would be something in the range 2\3 pure blood. And if as you say, there is a complex "breeding pattern" to produce someone "of the blood" then he would be as close to 100% blood as possible. That is the prophecy: Of the blood but raised by people not of the blood.

Weird Harold
07-14-2012, 12:29 AM
That's not how the Andoran houses calculate their bloodline ...

The Aiel and the Glass Columns don't care how Andorans calculate ancestry. :D

Rand was the first candidate without pure Aiel blood and by their reckoning of ancestry, he was half Aiel, half Wetlander. As readers, we know that there is some Aiel ancestry in Rand's Andoran ancestry -- through Rhea, some 2,000+ years back. That means that Rand is majority-Aiel, but there is no way to calculate just ho big the majority is. I suspect that not much of his Andoran side is Aiel because the Pattern needs him to be "of all mankind" so it would have included something from every population, even if it isn't a visible trait. (Yes, I'm including Sharan, Seanchan, and Madmen in all mankind.)

maleshub
07-14-2012, 04:01 AM
The Aiel and the Glass Columns don't care how Andorans calculate ancestry. :D

Rand was the first candidate without pure Aiel blood and by their reckoning of ancestry, he was half Aiel, half Wetlander. As readers, we know that there is some Aiel ancestry in Rand's Andoran ancestry -- through Rhea, some 2,000+ years back. That means that Rand is majority-Aiel, but there is no way to calculate just ho big the majority is. I suspect that not much of his Andoran side is Aiel because the Pattern needs him to be "of all mankind" so it would have included something from every population, even if it isn't a visible trait. (Yes, I'm including Sharan, Seanchan, and Madmen in all mankind.)

Lol ... The Andoran bloodlines was just to show that bloodlines don't thin as much as you implied.

As to the columns being triggered by Rand's "unique" blood, it is a definite possibility. Another more interesting trigger is Callandor, how did that angreal recognize Rand? It is probably the same way the columns recognized him to brand 2 dragons on his forearms.

But the questions that come to mind: could Rand's bond to Aviendha have had an impact on her version of the visions? If here were to go through the columns a second time, would he have seen that Aiel future in order to work to save a remnant of a remnant as the Dragon's blood are central to their decline?

GonzoTheGreat
07-14-2012, 04:47 AM
So, Rand would not be 50.0000000001. He would be something in the range 2\3 pure blood.
As a side note: I've often wondered how Gilgamesh managed being two thirds god and one third human. Apparently it's easier to do than I'd thought.

Weird Harold
07-14-2012, 11:54 AM
As to the columns being triggered by Rand's "unique" blood, it is a definite possibility. Another more interesting trigger is Callandor, how did that angreal recognize Rand? It is probably the same way the columns recognized him to brand 2 dragons on his forearms.

Callandor didn't recognize Rand, the Wards of Saidin and Saidar around it did. I'm not sure that even the Aes Sedai who set those wards knew what they tested for or how they recognized Rand; The wards would have been set according to instructions revealed in the Foretelling that demanded they be set.

But the questions that come to mind: could Rand's bond to Aviendha have had an impact on her version of the visions?

The bond with Rand is not the only bond Aviendha carries. In many ways, the Sister bond with Elayne and/or the Three-way link on the female end of the bond with Rand could complicate the function of the Columns -- if they were to be affected at all. The columns apparently were not affected by any of the links, as Aviendha saw only her own bloodlines -- as far as we know. The visions of the past were boring and unexceptional and she didn't see through the perceptions of Elayne's or Min's children in the future POVs.

Of course the information she saw of the future isn't information that would be available to the Columns in the same way that information about the past was available. What she saw of the future reads more like a bad dream or hallucination than a foreshadowing; there are simply too many improbabilities involved for a true vision.

maleshub
07-14-2012, 04:23 PM
Callandor didn't recognize Rand, the Wards of Saidin and Saidar around it did. I'm not sure that even the Aes Sedai who set those wards knew what they tested for or how they recognized Rand; The wards would have been set according to instructions revealed in the Foretelling that demanded they be set.


Whether it is Callandor or the wards guarding it that recognized Rand, the "key" was in Rand. What was the key? Because it is probably the same key that triggered the branding of 2 dragons. All Aiel clan chiefs see what Rand saw in the columns and come out with one dragon; what triggered the second dragon for Rand?

The bond with Rand is not the only bond Aviendha carries. In many ways, the Sister bond with Elayne and/or the Three-way link on the female end of the bond with Rand could complicate the function of the Columns -- if they were to be affected at all. The columns apparently were not affected by any of the links, as Aviendha saw only her own bloodlines -- as far as we know. The visions of the past were boring and unexceptional and she didn't see through the perceptions of Elayne's or Min's children in the future POVs.

Of course the information she saw of the future isn't information that would be available to the Columns in the same way that information about the past was available. What she saw of the future reads more like a bad dream or hallucination than a foreshadowing; there are simply too many improbabilities involved for a true vision.

From vague memory, didn't the cloud cover dissipate over Aviendha in the same way it did over Caemlyn? If so, that has to be the influence of Rand's bond.

If the above is indeed Rand's bond; then the columns might recognize that bond and disregard any other bonds in Aviendha's head.

But I understand the "first sister bond" to be different from the warder bond used on Rand. Elayne and Aviendha didn't suddenly start to act like "Elayne and Birgitte." And another thing is that the warder bond used on Rand linked him to the three women; but didn't link the women to each other. Is that correct or not?

Weird Harold
07-14-2012, 10:10 PM
Whether it is Callandor or the wards guarding it that recognized Rand, the "key" was in Rand. What was the key? Because it is probably the same key that triggered the branding of 2 dragons. All Aiel clan chiefs see what Rand saw in the columns and come out with one dragon; what triggered the second dragon for Rand?

There are a wider range of possibilities for the Wards to recognize. The columns have to respond appropriately to male and female Aiel leadership candidates as well as responding to Rand; the Wards on Callandor only had to respond positive for just one unique individual.

If the columns and wards were both keyed on the same unique characteristic, it is the columns that will shed light on the wards, rather than vice versa. That being the case, everything known or deduced about the columns before Aviendha's "second trip" suggests that the key is in the candidate's blood/genes/ancestry.

From vague memory, didn't the cloud cover dissipate over Aviendha in the same way it did over Caemlyn? If so, that has to be the influence of Rand's bond.

If the above is indeed Rand's bond; then the columns might recognize that bond and disregard any other bonds in Aviendha's head.

IIRC, Brandon confirmed that the clearing skies were the result of the link. That still doesn't provide any evidence that the columns can detect such links -- especially since warder bonds and first sister bonds were unknown at the time the Glass Columns were constructed.

And another thing is that the warder bond used on Rand linked him to the three women; but didn't link the women to each other. Is that correct or not?

According to Min and Aviendha's inability to mask the bond while Elayne was busy getting pregnant, that is NOT correct. :D

I doubt the columns have ever had to deal with warder bonds before, but First Sister bonds are apparently common among Wise Ones so the columns must have dealt with that bond. I know of no evidence concerning whether such a bond affects the columns in any way.

As far as I can tell, Aviendha's "Wayforward Adventure" came entirely from within Aviendha. The visions may have been prompted or guided by Nakomi but they are consistent with Avendha's fears and understanding of what the columns showed.

Terez
07-15-2012, 01:19 AM
According to Min and Aviendha's inability to mask the bond while Elayne was busy getting pregnant, that is NOT correct.
1. They were sensing Rand, not Elayne.
2. Aviendha was able to mask the bond; Min and Birgitte weren't.

newyorkersedai
07-15-2012, 08:01 AM
I know we've got more loose threads than ever before, but maybe the terangreal shows the Aiel what they need to see in order to survive the future.

The columns having that nuance to their purpose sure makes more sense than Avi's disappearing spirit guide. Sigh...


Except that we know the purpose they were made for in the first place—the preservation of the Aiel tradition—and this fits exactly along with it. The ability was always there; the ter'angreal would have had to have been designed to touch the Mirror Worlds in some way in order to access those Mirror Worlds. It's very doubtful that anything Aviendha did gave it that access.

It's not a fundamental change in the ter'angreal just because it performs a limited function on top of a usual function. The only thing that changed was the way it was used.

maleshub
07-15-2012, 08:36 PM
Fresh off finishing TWotW ..... maybe Callandor and the Columns were triggered by Rand's link to the Eye of the World. Whomever the Eye serves, gets Callandor and the 2 Dragon imprints.

Weird Harold
07-15-2012, 10:34 PM
Fresh off finishing TWotW ..... maybe Callandor and the Columns were triggered by Rand's link to the Eye of the World. Whomever the Eye serves, gets Callandor and the 2 Dragon imprints.
Why is it so difficult for people to accept that the Glass Columns don't need to look for outside links or search nine different dimensions before consulting with the *finn and Ogier to determine a Clan Chief's fitness or identify the Car'A'Carn?

Everything the Columns need to know (up to aviendha's second trip) can be found in the Blood. Even Aviendha's second Trip can be accounted for by tracing threads through the Pattern. I don't know exactly what Aviendha's ancestry is, but the columns do; Aviendha is a unique person and that is detectible in her Blood Relationships.

Expecting the Glass Columns to detect links or occurances outside of ancestry is like asking a DNA analysis to provide descriptions of scars and body piercings.

maleshub
07-15-2012, 10:46 PM
Why is it so difficult for people to accept that the Glass Columns don't need to look for outside links or search nine different dimensions before consulting with the *finn and Ogier to determine a Clan Chief's fitness or identify the Car'A'Carn?

Everything the Columns need to know (up to aviendha's second trip) can be found in the Blood. Even Aviendha's second Trip can be accounted for by tracing threads through the Pattern. I don't know exactly what Aviendha's ancestry is, but the columns do; Aviendha is a unique person and that is detectible in her Blood Relationships.

Expecting the Glass Columns to detect links or occurances outside of ancestry is like asking a DNA analysis to provide descriptions of scars and body piercings.

Just thinking out loud and discussing Rand's, not Aviendha's, link to Callandor and the Columns. Callandor was preserved by the Aes Sedai (in Rand's visions) and declared essential for the future battle. And the same time, "The Green Man" was sent to a group of Aes Sedai for a mission (guard the eye of the world). Is there a link between the two?

In the same vein, Aes Sedai were the ones who built or assembled the Columns. My assumption and understanding is that they were the last 2 surviving Aes Sedai from the Age of Legends who found the Aiel and set up their "system" to serve the Dragon (chiefs and wise ones need to pass through the columns to learn their history and purpose).

The same Aes Sedai knowledge preserved Callandor, made the Eye, and assembled the Columns. Is there a link?

Just a thought! Rand was able to hold Callandor after having the Eye of the World serve him. Is there a link there? What are previous discussions on the issue? And could there be a link between the Eye and the Columns?

Weird Harold
07-15-2012, 11:48 PM
The same Aes Sedai knowledge preserved Callandor, made the Eye, and assembled the Columns. Is there a link?

Yes, there is a link. Two related links actually; Prophecy and the Pattern.

Prophecy instructed the last of the Aes Sedai on what to preserve, how to preserve it, and how to test for the rightful heir. There is no evidence or guarantee that the proof should be the same for every test.

Landro
07-16-2012, 05:32 AM
With the columns it could be as simple as just detecting a male channeler

Weird Harold
07-16-2012, 12:15 PM
With the columns it could be as simple as just detecting a male channeler
I'm sure that there have been clan chief candidates who were latent channelers -- AKA Learners or sparkers before sparking. The columns would need a bit more than simply "a channeler."

It's worth noting that the columns won't function for a non-aiel. At a minimum they would have to test for an aiel, male, active, channeler.

GonzoTheGreat
07-16-2012, 12:36 PM
Maybe "adopted by a non-Aiel" would do. That raises the problem of how to implement it, but as that's an engineering problem, that doesn't bother me. We sure don't have less knowledge on that score than for any of the other suggestions.

Landro
07-16-2012, 12:40 PM
I'm sure that there have been clan chief candidates who were latent channelers -- AKA Learners or sparkers before sparking. The columns would need a bit more than simply "a channeler."

It's worth noting that the columns won't function for a non-aiel. At a minimum they would have to test for an aiel, male, active, channeler.

I doubt the Aiel would let anybody else get close to Rhuidean so that wouldn't be a problem. Perhaps instead of detecting any male channeler they would detect a male channeler of at least a certain strength who has started to channel knowingly? I think all candidates would have been old enough to spark if they every would. Is there a quote about the columns only working for Aiel because I don't remember reading anything about that in the books.

That warding around Callandor could be 100% bluff. What Forsaken would risk his own skin against prophesy? They could use dupes though so the warding was probably real.

Terez
07-16-2012, 01:33 PM
Yeah, active channeler would probably be enough to single him out, perhaps combined with mixed blood just to be sure.

Marie Curie 7
07-16-2012, 09:53 PM
I doubt the Aiel would let anybody else get close to Rhuidean so that wouldn't be a problem. Perhaps instead of detecting any male channeler they would detect a male channeler of at least a certain strength who has started to channel knowingly? I think all candidates would have been old enough to spark if they every would. Is there a quote about the columns only working for Aiel because I don't remember reading anything about that in the books.

Yes.

Interview: Jul, 2002
COT: 'Glimmers' Ebook Q&A (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=5#17) (Verbatim)

Question: Rhuarc indicates that an Aiel in Rhuidean sees the past through the eyes of one of his ancestors. Is this true for the women as well? What would a non-Aiel see, if anything?

Robert Jordan: Yes, a woman would also see through the eyes of her ancestors, at least in the "forest of crystal spires" ter'angreal, and she, too, would live the history of the Aiel, in effect. Someone who wasn't Aiel could wander through those spires forever and never see a thing except the spires. He or she might think it was a monument, or maybe a work of art. Just for a reminder, women who are chosen out to be Wise Ones have to go to Rhuidean twice, the second time for the spires and the first for another ter'angreal, one that makes her see all of the possible paths her life could take all the way to their conclusion. She can't possibly remember all of them, of course, but some things she will remember and know that it would be very bad for her to make that particular choice when it comes, or alternatively, very good. This is the ter'angreal that Moiraine went through.

Weird Harold
07-16-2012, 11:09 PM
... Is there a quote about the columns only working for Aiel because I don't remember reading anything about that in the books.

It can be deduced from what is in the books. Marie posted the Q&A quote from RJ that makes it explicit.

That warding around Callandor could be 100% bluff. What Forsaken would risk his own skin against prophesy? They could use dupes though so the warding was probably real.

Egwene encountered the wards on Callandor in T'A'R. "Silvie" (aka Lanfear) sent her back to the waking world to avoid one of the male Forsaken coming to examine the wards, again.

1: The wards on Callanddor were real and woven of both Saidin and Saidar.

2: at least one, (and probably all,) male Forsaken would be willing to test Prophecy for a chance at a Sa'angreal of Callandor's power.

Terez
07-17-2012, 05:21 AM
It can be deduced from what is in the books.
Not really, since we don't see any non-Aiel try to use them.

Weird Harold
07-17-2012, 07:37 AM
Not really, since we don't see any non-Aiel try to use them.
Perhaps my logic is faulty, but it seemed rather obvious that a device to show a candidate's ancestors part in Aiel history won't show anything to someone who didn't have any ancestors present at significant moments in Aiel history.

GonzoTheGreat
07-17-2012, 07:54 AM
Perhaps my logic is faulty, but it seemed rather obvious that a device to show a candidate's ancestors part in Aiel history won't show anything to someone who didn't have any ancestors present at significant moments in Aiel history.
It could be that if Mat had went into the columns, then he would have seen the TR ancestry since the AOL. Since he instead traipsed off to be the guest of honor at a botched hanging, this issue was not wholly resolved.

Weird Harold
07-17-2012, 09:52 AM
It could be that if Mat had went into the columns, then he would have seen the TR ancestry since the AOL. Since he instead traipsed off to be the guest of honor at a botched hanging, this issue was not wholly resolved.
If Mat had wandered through the Glass Columns, we wouldn't have to deduce whether they work for non-aiel. Since Mat has no aiel ancestors, there is no Aiel history to be shown -- the columns' purpose IS to show Aiel history, after all.

Terez
07-17-2012, 10:11 AM
Okay, NOW your logic is definitely faulty. :p If it can be shown that they only work for those with Aiel ancestors, then it can be deduced that they only work for those with Aiel ancestors. Without a non-Aiel wandering around inside them, we had no way of knowing for sure that they were designed to work only for Aiel.

Davian93
07-17-2012, 10:13 AM
I'm sure that there have been clan chief candidates who were latent channelers -- AKA Learners or sparkers before sparking. The columns would need a bit more than simply "a channeler."

It's worth noting that the columns won't function for a non-aiel. At a minimum they would have to test for an aiel, male, active, channeler.

Perhaps they, like other things, were simply attuned to the Dragon soul. If they could ward Callandor to do that, why not the Columns? The knowledge of how to do so was clearly there in the AoL.

Weird Harold
07-17-2012, 11:02 AM
Okay, NOW your logic is definitely faulty. :p If it can be shown that they only work for those with Aiel ancestors, then it can be deduced that they only work for those with Aiel ancestors. Without a non-Aiel wandering around inside them, we had no way of knowing for sure that they were designed to work only for Aiel.

I don't think you understand deduction. :D You want proof and/or explicit demonstrations instead of deductions.

Perhaps they, like other things, were simply attuned to the Dragon soul. If they could ward Callandor to do that, why not the Columns? The knowledge of how to do so was clearly there in the AoL.

That might be true if marking the Car'a'carn/Dragon Reborn with two dragons were the only thing the Columns were designed/programmed to do. Being a Clan Chief or Wise One doesn't require a specific soul, just enough mental flexibility to accept that Aiel haven't always been honor-obsessed warriors.

Terez
07-17-2012, 11:08 AM
I don't think you understand deduction. :D You want proof and/or explicit demonstrations instead of deductions.
No, I understand deductions perfectly. If Mat had wandered around inside the ter'angreal, then we would be able to deduce that it did not work for Aiel. As he did not, and no other non-Aiel did, all we had the basis for was an assumption. Which is quite different from a deduction. And also quite different from proof, which is what we have in RJ's comment.

Landro
07-17-2012, 11:09 AM
Yes.

Thank you

If Mat had wandered through the Glass Columns, we wouldn't have to deduce whether they work for non-aiel. Since Mat has no aiel ancestors, there is no Aiel history to be shown -- the columns' purpose IS to show Aiel history, after all.

We know from Rand's trip that during the breaking, many Aiel women were kidnapped (and probably raped which might have led some to get pregnant and give birth outside Aiel society) and others also left the main group of their own will. (tinkers but maybe others too) This means there are many people with Aiel Ancestry who might not be aware of this. For all we know Mat could be 0.001% Aiel and see the visions in the glass columns.

GonzoTheGreat
07-17-2012, 11:29 AM
If a Tinker went through the glass columns, would she then find the Song?

Terez
07-17-2012, 11:35 AM
She would probably end up like Muradin, after realizing that, in the process of wandering around for over 3,000 years, the Tinkers have lost the concentration of Aiel blood needed to Sing it.

Weird Harold
07-17-2012, 11:53 AM
(tinkers but maybe others too) This means there are many people with Aiel Ancestry who might not be aware of this.

You mean people like Rand, Tigraine, Morgase, Elayne, Galad, Gawyn, and any other Andoran who is descended from Rhea? (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/hist/rhea2.html) :D

Tinkers have interbred with wetlanders to the point that they probably don't have any more Aiel heredity than the Andoran noble houses. The Aiel (and Two Rivers Folk) are presented as purebred/inbred groups with very little, if any, interbreeding with outsiders; that suggests that the Columns could disregard anything less than 50% pure-blood Aiel -- some minimum level of Aiel-ness, anyway.

Someone who wasn't Aiel could wander through those spires forever and never see a thing except the spires. He or she might think it was a monument, or maybe a work of art.

The question really is what RJ considered as constituting "wasn't Aiel."

Weird Harold
07-17-2012, 12:20 PM
She would probably end up like Muradin, after realizing that, in the process of wandering around for over 3,000 years, the Tinkers have lost the concentration of Aiel blood needed to Sing it.

If a Tinker retained enough Aiel-ness, what would be seen at the first six time points -- the Tinkers and Rhea diverge from the Pure Aiel lines at the seventh time point.

Starting at the Compact of Rhuidean and working backward through the various key points seems a necessary part of the Columns purpose. Perhaps descent from someone present at the Compact of Rhuidean is the necessary distinguishing characteristic between Aiel and non-Aiel?

Lost One
12-15-2012, 05:09 PM
Pardon for my interjection, but I did NOT like the "future" segment. It is irrelvant. While I love the series.. I admit I am looking forward to the LAST book. We are never going to know about this future or what Aveinda does to try and change it. I take that back, we may see what she does, but we will not see an outcome, becuase AMoL will be the last book. I DO have several thoughts that I would like to share on this note, however, since I have not seen them mentioned.

First situation: On the humorous note, there is Avienda facing Sorilea, Bair, Melaine, and Amys: "I have great toh, Wise Ones. After my trip through collums.. I fiddled with them.. and well I broke it.. It no longer shows our past." How many grains of sand will she have to pick through to meet her toh for this..

Second, more seriously. Why do we assume that no other WO has done the same? Ever since Fires of Heaven, the WO have paid exceptional attention to Avienda. We all assumed it was only because she was supposed to wed the Caracarn as well support him in the LB. But remember the phrase, "a Remnant of a Remnant". While it could be (I just thought of this aspect) the Aiel of today are but a remnant from the many who left during the breaking with the Tuanthan, and the Jenn, being the other two remnants, I do not think the WO could have misinterpreted so badly, so this is still a future event. However, it could be that Avienda's actions/decisions will be what saves the remnant of a remnant, and this is what the WO are talking about?

I can already hear the doubts coming in such as why they would keep this quiet and they would not know of it/or brought it up before. They would not have becuase know too much, too soon, would overly influence her actions. Avienda would have made different decisions based on this.

Thoughts??

Lost One
12-15-2012, 06:00 PM
One interesting but forgotten detail is that before Aviendha left for Rhuidean, Elayne gave her Verin's dream ter'angreal as well as an angreal from the Ebou Dar stash.


It was mentioned in LoC ch 52 that Elayne and Nynaeve had brought Verin's ring to Ebou Dar, after which they went straight to Caemlyn, so we know that the original ring ter'angreal was still in her possession at that point.

Furthermore, Elayne's own copies didn't have the same colors as the original ring: "She was not sure how to reproduce the original's red, blue and brown." So the dream ring she gave Aviendha, described as "all red and blue and brown," almost certainly was the original from Verin and not one of Elayne's flawed copies.

However, Brandon seems to have have missed this since Verin's ring was said to be with the Sitters in TGS before it was stolen by Sheriam.

This was later corrected in the ebook edition (see below), but the ring and angreal still weren't mentioned in any of Aviendha's POVs.


If Aviendha brought Verin's ring to Rhuidean, there's certainly a possibility of it influencing the ter'angreal there in the same way that it interfered with the Acceptatron during Egwene's test in TDR. That would throw some doubt on the veracity of her visions. However, the fact that Brandon apparently forgot that Aviendha had Verin's ring suggests that it probably wasn't responsible for what happened in Rhuidean.

I had thought I remembered N., A., and E. as having the original, and was confused as to how it got back to the Rebel's stash. I also thought it was mentioned as Suian having that one with the Sitter's not knowing about it as they would have kept her from running around TAR. (My books are all first eds.. mostly). Does anyone else remember this? I cannot remember which book.

Dom
12-15-2012, 07:04 PM
I had thought I remembered N., A., and E. as having the original, and was confused as to how it got back to the Rebel's stash. I also thought it was mentioned as Suian having that one with the Sitter's not knowing about it as they would have kept her from running around TAR. (My books are all first eds.. mostly). Does anyone else remember this? I cannot remember which book.

I don't remember the book/scenes involved, but there is a continuity error somewhere about the original Ring and who has it.

IIRC, the error is between what was said about it in WH and where Brandon had it show up in TGS. I know it's been noted and sent to Maria, it's probably corrected in recent editions (I could check if you point me the right scene, I got what I assume are the latest versions of TGS/TOM in my Kobo, but haven't gotten around to checking the changes from my first ed. hardcover yet. I bought them about a month ago. Is there a list of the TGS/TOM errors somewhere, I'd be curious to see which ones got changed by Maria.)

Edit: found it. Siuan no longer says the original ring is with the Sitters and she's stuck with the copy the Sitters believe got captured with Leane. She says she'd wish Elayne had not taken the original Ring with her when she went to Ebou Dar but that the copy the Sitters thought had been captured with Leane (it wasn't, Siuan secretely had her share of that ring, and the night Leane got captured it was Siuan's turn to have it) is better than nothing.

sleepinghour
12-15-2012, 07:35 PM
It was corrected in the ebook edition of TGS, though as far as I could tell, there's still no explanation about what Aviendha did with Verin's ring and the angreal she got from Elayne in KoD.
[Siuan] would have liked to have the original ring, but that was carefully kept by the Sitters.
—TGS ch 8

[Siuan] would have liked to have the original ring, but Elayne had taken that one with her.
—TGS ebook edition ch 8

Egwene clenched her teeth, thinking of Sheriam's final spilled confessions. The theft of the ter'angreal had been far from the most shocking tidbit she'd mentioned. Elayne would be livid; the original ring had been among those stolen, and Egwene doubted that Siuan's hidden copy would be useful as a template. It was already flawed; copies of it would likely be more imperfect.
—TGS ch 45

Egwene clenched her teeth, thinking of Sheriam's final spilled confessions. The theft of the ter'angreal had been far from the most shocking tidbit she’d mentioned. Elayne would be livid; she had made all of the copies that were stolen. While none of her copies worked as well as the original, they worked well enough. She would not be happy that they were in the hands of a Forsaken.
—TGS ebook edition ch 45

Lost One
12-15-2012, 11:49 PM
Double sweet.. thanks for the corrections

Dom
12-16-2012, 02:38 AM
there's still no explanation about what Aviendha did with Verin's ring and the angreal she got from Elayne in KoD.


Brandon seems to have forgotten the angreal completely (or at least Aviendha forgot she had it. She could have used it in the TGS bubble of evil scene that strained her strength).

About the ring, well... Brandon obviously forgot she had it, but she didn't really have an opportunity to use it. She stays away from Egwene these days, and the dreamwalkers are with her, so she doesn't have to communicate with them.

It may or not play out later. With the errors, Brandon was made aware he had forgotten Aviendha had the ring, so he might use it in AMOL. Rather obviously Elayne isn't meant to make more copies, at least it wasn't in the plans - since Brandon got what he thought was the original ter'angreal lost and pointed it out.

RJ probably gave Aviendha the ring in part so Elayne couldn't make more copies (which is of some importance, since the BA/Mesaana stole most of those), and in part in case he needed Aviendha to communicate with Elayne, Egwene or the WO through TAR down the line. He may not have had more specific plans than this to use it, just kept his options open in case he needed such a communication, knowing Aviendha would be alone for a while and can't enter TAR on her own without a WO guiding her in, or a ter'angreal.

Bottomline: the Shadow now have a larger access to TAR than the AS/WO. In any important offensive in TAR in the LB, it's down now to a few ter'angreal and the natural dreamwalkers, and Perrin's army of wolves. At least until Aviendah returned, but since Brandon had the original lost originally, it probably means no more copies even though Aviendha now has the ring as she should all along have.

sleepinghour
12-16-2012, 07:05 AM
Well, Elayne did somehow manage to create perfect copies of the ring recently, according to ToM's corrections...
"What if I offer to include the dream ter'angreal you were loaned?" Egwene asked.
Shielyn glanced at her hand where, in the real world, she would be holding the small plate that—with a channeled bit of Spirit—let a woman enter Tel'aran'rhiod. Egwene hadn't given them the ter'angreal that let one enter without needing to channel, of course. Those were more versatile, and therefore more powerful. Best to keep those a secret.
-ToM ch 36

"What if I offer to include the dream ter’angreal you were loaned?" Egwene asked.
Shielyn glanced at her hand where, in the real world, she would be holding the small plate that—with a channeled bit of Spirit—let a woman enter Tel’aran’rhiod. Egwene hadn’t given them the ter’angreal Elayne had finally perfected that let one enter without needing to channel, of course. Those were more versatile, and therefore more powerful. Best to keep those a secret.
-ToM ebook ch 36

"It's black as a tomb up there," Nynaeve whispered. "I think they made it that way. Siuan and Leane are all right; I saw them a little bit ago, sticking together. Just before that, I managed to hit Notori with a blast of fire. She's dead."
"Good. The Black Ajah stole nineteen ter'angreal. That might give us an estimate of how many Black Ajah we have to contend with."
-ToM ch 37

"It’s black as a tomb up there," Nynaeve whispered. "I think they made it that way. They shouldn’t be able to channel this well with those imperfect copies. Siuan and Leane are all right; I saw them a little bit ago, sticking together. Just before that, I managed to hit Notori with a blast of fire. She’s dead."
"Good. The Black Ajah stole nineteen ter’angreal. That might give us an estimate of how many Black Ajah we have to contend with. Or since they're able to channel so strongly, perhaps not."
-ToM ebook ch 37

It doesn't say which dream ter'angreal she perfected, but it has to be the rings since the other two types (an iron disc and an amber plaque) both require a flow of Spirit to use, according to TSR. So...it's no use trying to make sense of anything dream ter'angreal-related; it's a complete mess at this point.

However, I'm still fond of the theory that RJ gave Verin's ring to Aviendha either to explain or cast some doubt on the veracity of the Rhuidean visions. Verin's ring didn't act up until Egwene went through the third arch which dealt with the future, so it would make sense if something similar happened with the ter'angreal in Rhuidean.

GonzoTheGreat
12-16-2012, 07:09 AM
About those Black Ajah and how many there were/how strongly they could channel:
Could pillow friends share such a ter'angreal? If they're both channeling into it when going to sleep, and it is touching both of them, then wouldn't they both enter TAR? That way, there could have been twice as many dark sisters in the fight as Egwene assumed she would be facing. Have them link, and each one that she actually sees is twice as dangerous as she expects.

sleepinghour
12-16-2012, 07:50 AM
Have them link, and each one that she actually sees is twice as dangerous as she expects.

The amount they should be able to channel with those ter'angreal is tiny enough that even if they linked, they would at best be able to match someone like Morgase.

The True Source was a pale thing. She channeled a flame dancing in air above her hand. She might look solid—to herself, anyway—but she could see the river through that scrap of fire. She tied it off, and it faded away like mist as soon as the knot was done. How could she face Moghedien when the weakest novice in Salidar could match or better her strength?
[..]
Nynaeve thought of channeling. But what? A dagger that might not even penetrate the woman’s skin? Fire that would not singe her skirts? Moghedien knew how useless she was; she was not even looking at her.

A better solution would be to have the Black Ajah enter T'A'R in the flesh like Rahvin and Rand in TFoH, but that was clearly not what Brandon and Team Jordan intended since they later tried to patch up the holes. Others have suggested that Mesaana herself repaired the flawed ter'angreal or taught everyone to enter without any ter'angreal, but it's a bit too convenient for Mesaana to have that particular Talent, or that the Black Ajah would be able to master T'A'R so quickly when Elayne and Nynaeve still haven't. It also doesn't explain why Nynaeve was able to channel at full strength (she says she killed one of the Black Ajah with a blast of fire). If we take the corrections into account, she probably had one of Elayne's newly perfected copies.

The whole T'A'R fight reads like Brandon thinking, "wouldn't it be cool to have a Matrix-like fight here?" without really thinking it through.

GonzoTheGreat
12-16-2012, 07:57 AM
Well, Mesaana was the most famous teacher of the entire AOL, wasn't she? :p

And Nynaeve was probably just a bit irritated. That tends to help her concentrate.

But apart from that, there were a few problematic details with it. On the other hand, it was something close to a Pattern Level Event, like Rand's fight with Ishamael in Falme.