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View Full Version : Padan Fain's role in the last battle


77jester
03-27-2012, 02:20 AM
I had an interesting epiphany the other day during my reread of the series. In tGS Rand and Min repeatedly mused on what could be done to seal the dark one. In ch 22 he has a conversation with Lews Therin in his head
She's right, Lews Therin said suddenly.
She? Rand asked.
The pretty on. With the short hair. She says we need to break the seals. She's right.

Rand froze, pulling Tai'daishar up short, ignoring the groom who had come to take the horse. To hear Lews Therin agreeing....
What do we do after that? Rand asked.
We die. You promised we could die!
Only if we defeat the Dark One, Rand said.
You know that if he wins, there will be nothing for us. Not even death.
Yes... nothing, Lews Therin began to think that way... No, Rand said, it wouldn't be nothing. He would have our soul. The pain would be worse, far worse.
Lews Therin began to weep.
Lews Therin! Rand snapped in his mind. What do we do? How did you seal the Bore last time?
It didn't work, Lews Therin whispered. We used saidin, but we touched it to the Dark One. It was the only way! Something has to touch him, something to close the gap, but he was able to taint it. The seal was weak!
Yes, but what do we do differently? Rand thought.
Silence.

There were two schools of thought on how to seal the Dark One. In ch 47 of tGS, it was mentioned that the Choedan Kal were created for the other opinion.
I told them... Lews Therin whispered.
Told them what? Rand demanded.
That the plan would not work, Lews Therin said, voice very soft. That brute force would not contain him. They called my plan brash, but these weapons they created, thery were too dangerous. Too frightening. No man should hold such Power...

So if brute force isn't the answer, and you can't touch the Dark One directly with the power without risk of a counter stroke. What options are left?
That's when it hit me... all of the foreshadowing in the books. Padan Fain
We've seen the way the evil of Shadar Logoth repels/fights the evil of the Dark One. In aCoS ch 36 Flinn describes it These are alike, but different, as if there's two kinds of infection at work. Only it isn't infection; it's... darkness. I can't think of a better word.
He continues after he heals Rand I couldn't really touch what's wrong. I sort of sealed them away from him, for a time, anyhow. It won't last. They're fighting each other , now. Maybe they'll kill off each other, while he heals himself the rest of the way.

In WH ch 35 when Rand cleansed Saidin he used this principle. So my thought is why can't he use this principle to seal the Dark One's prison completely again w/o a counter stroke? If the Shadar Logoth evil, Padan Fain, is fighting the Dark One, Occupying his attention or "closing the gap" as Lews Therin put it. Rand, or Logain, could touch Saidin and Saidar in a circle with Callandor directly to Fain instead of the Dark One with the 6 seals. Sealing up both of them at the same time.
Getting Fain to attack the Dark One is a very likely scenario if Rand is killed on the rocks of Shayol Gol by the Dark One or Moridin before Fain can get to Rand. He's very possessive of who get's to kill him, ie: Rochaid in Far Madding. Also Fain HATES the Dark One for what was done to him, reinforcing the motive for attacking and placing himself in the area to close the gap. Every time we see Padan Fain, he has been getting stronger and stronger with the Shadar Logoth evil. What better way to use it than to contain the Dark One long enough for the forces of Light to make his prison complete.

On a side note, if SL evil is the polar opposite to the Dark One like Saidin and Saidar. Male and Female... Does that make the Dark One a girl :D:D:D:eek:

GonzoTheGreat
03-27-2012, 04:25 AM
I don't think Padan Fain is anywhere near close to as powerful as the DO.
So this solution might work for a couple of seconds, maybe a minute or two, but no longer.

Which, all in all, leaves something desired when it is intended as a permanent fix.

Vanadis
03-27-2012, 06:50 AM
Well, I have always had this weird idea that it is Fain that will become the "new" DO in the next turning of the Wheel.

I know, it isn't a very solid theory, but it kind of got stuck in my head :)

The Unreasoner
03-27-2012, 07:33 AM
It's not a particularly new theory. People have long suggested that Fain would be everything from a new Seal to a dagger for the Dark One's heart; ply a role from Gollum to Agent Smith.

NaeffOfDreams
03-27-2012, 07:14 PM
Fain is to the DO as Jecht is to Sin? I doubt it, based on what we know, but crazier things have happened.

Gollum seems to be the go-to trope, but I read an interview at some point (don't remember if it was RJ or BS) saying that he is not a Gollum-analog. I don't know if it was meant that he won't bite Rand's fingers off, or that he won't be filling the role of inadvertently winning Tarmon Gai'don for us. The only certainty is that I'm interested to see what his "wild-card" status yields.

77jester
03-29-2012, 12:55 AM
I don't think Padan Fain is anywhere near close to as powerful as the DO.
So this solution might work for a couple of seconds, maybe a minute or two, but no longer.

Which, all in all, leaves something desired when it is intended as a permanent fix.

The problem with this doubt is that You're discounting what proof we have in the books. The Shadar Logoth evil IS standing toe to toe with the DO's evil and has kept it at bay for quite some time now, seven books. Rand's wound on his side hasn't changed since Flinn sealed it. If the SL evil was as weak as you're implying, his wound would be solely the DO's evil almost immediately after Flinn sealed it off from Rand. Since it's clearly described as fighting each other.
Instead we see concrete proof from RJ that the SL evil is just as powerful. The counter balance, just like Saidin and Saidar.
Even if Rand breaks all of the seals that doesn't assure complete freedom, just more freedom for the DO. Rand's memories as Lews Therin describe it as a gap. Shayol Gol is a thinness in the pattern. They drilled a hole, they didn't open a door.
If you have a plumbing leak in your copper pipes, you don't seal it by dripping hot solder on the hole. It won't seal completely. The water will keep it from bonding to the copper, eventually it will start spraying water through the tiny holes. That's what Lews Therin and the 100 companions did. To seal it correctly you have to shut off the water, then solder to clean, dry copper. Old plumbers used to stuff bread into the pipes to absorb the water and allow them to work with a clean dry pipe. It would eventually dissolve, but not until their work was done. By then their patch was as good as new.
The same principle is being foreshadowed in the books by the quotes I provided above. I'm not suggesting that Fain will be the actual seal,(thus making him a Gollum character)just the temporary plug for Rand or Logain to do their work without getting wet. Lews Therin's Seals lasted for 3000 years and they were placed with the DO's full attention on them.

And this may not be an original theory, but we have new and expanded information in the last two books that directly relate to this theory. It has to be a better discussion than who hates/loves Egwene...:mad::mad::mad:

It didn't work, Lews Therin whispered. We used saidin, but we touched it to the Dark One. It was the only way! Something has to touch him, something to close the gap, but he was able to taint it. The seal was weak!
Yes, but what do we do differently? Rand thought.
What could be better to use as a temporary plug, to separate them from the DO, than an opposing force?

GonzoTheGreat
03-29-2012, 04:10 AM
What could be better to use as a temporary plug, to separate them from the DO, than an opposing force?
That might maybe work if Fain would indeed be no more than a temporary plug, which only has to hold for the few moments it takes to properly repair the DO's prison.

Which, of course, depends on that repair job actually being finished in those few moments, and on the DO not being able to work around Fain while this is going on. Neither seems an assumption we can take for granted at the moment.

Eltheriond
03-29-2012, 06:16 AM
Maybe something else to consider: Maybe the "die and be reborn" theories are tied into the "Fain will provide a distraction" theory put forward here?

Say Rand dies while doing...whatever during the Last Battle, then dies. While he is dead (and resurrecting himself, or being brought back, or whatever might happen) Fain either Hulk's-out at the DO for killing Rand, or just goes after him on his own, or gets "thrown" at the DO by somebody else. Fain distracts the DO long enough for Rand to be brought back, and finish what he has to do. Two theories tied together, just like that :D

Seth Baker
03-29-2012, 09:48 AM
The problem with this doubt is that You're discounting what proof we have in the books. The Shadar Logoth evil IS standing toe to toe with the DO's evil and has kept it at bay for quite some time now, seven books. Rand's wound on his side hasn't changed since Flinn sealed it. If the SL evil was as weak as you're implying, his wound would be solely the DO's evil almost immediately after Flinn sealed it off from Rand. Since it's clearly described as fighting each other.
Instead we see concrete proof from RJ that the SL evil is just as powerful. The counter balance, just like Saidin and Saidar.

I don't think this has the significance that you are implying. In small amounts, yes, that was the case. The taint (what was likely an imperceptible amount of the Dark One's power - he just kind of did it as a parting blow) was enough to completely obliterate Shadar Logoth and destroy the bedrock in which Mashadar dwelled. Somehow I doubt that Fain somehow obtained many magnitudes more power along the way. I'd put my money on him against a Forsaken or Shaidar Haran, if he had the element of surprise in his favor, but not the Dark One.

I think that this mythology is much closer to Brandon Sanderson's Ruin and Preservation than Tolkien's Eru Iluvatar and Melkor/Morgoth. The most powerful of the races of the world could stand up to Morgoth once he had weakened himself by strengthening Ungoliant, and Sauron, and the Balrogs (even though Fingolfin ultimately died despite it all). Ruin was defeated through a trick, a ruse. Here, the Dark One is the counterpart to the Creator of the Multiverse.

I don't think it's going to come down to Fain directly fighting the Dark One. I think it will be much closer to a Gollum - he'll somehow distract the Dark One at a pivotal moment, allowing Rand to do what he needs to do. Not because Padan Fain can match the Dark One's strength, but because he's such a fundamentally different evil.

You go on to say much the same, but I couldn't agree with your initial characterization of Fain/Dark One as similar to Saidin/Saidar. It's more like matter/antimatter. They might obliterate each other, but there's a hell of a lot more of one than the other.

That might maybe work if Fain would indeed be no more than a temporary plug, which only has to hold for the few moments it takes to properly repair the DO's prison.

Which, of course, depends on that repair job actually being finished in those few moments, and on the DO not being able to work around Fain while this is going on. Neither seems an assumption we can take for granted at the moment.

Despite my inclination that you're probably right that Fain won't last too long against the Dark One, it's a big presumption to assume that "not too long" is "only a few moments." We have absolutely no basis to put a time frame on our speculation here.

Maybe something else to consider: Maybe the "die and be reborn" theories are tied into the "Fain will provide a distraction" theory put forward here?

Say Rand dies while doing...whatever during the Last Battle, then dies. While he is dead (and resurrecting himself, or being brought back, or whatever might happen) Fain either Hulk's-out at the DO for killing Rand, or just goes after him on his own, or gets "thrown" at the DO by somebody else. Fain distracts the DO long enough for Rand to be brought back, and finish what he has to do. Two theories tied together, just like that :D

Well, it's all conceivable, except for Fain "Hulking out at the Dark One for killing Rand."

GonzoTheGreat
03-29-2012, 10:36 AM
Despite my inclination that you're probably right that Fain won't last too long against the Dark One, it's a big presumption to assume that "not too long" is "only a few moments." We have absolutely no basis to put a time frame on our speculation here.
Suppose that the DO has the ability to use something like balefire. Then suppose that he aims a huge load of that at Rand, with Fain in the way. Fain can try to duck out of the way, and may or may not be successful. But I don't see him as having the kind of power necessary to slow down such a blast noticeably at all.

NaeffOfDreams
03-30-2012, 09:06 AM
I found it.
INTERVIEW: Nov 8th, 2010
TOM Signing Report - Sarayne (Paraphrased)
QUESTION
Is Padan Fain going to turn out like Gollum?
BRANDON SANDERSON
No, he is not going to be like that. I am aware of the comparisons, and I am trying to distance him from that. The scene in Towers of Midnight with Padan Fain was originally written differently, and when I submitted it to Harriet she said, "Oh no, he's much crazier than that!" So I changed it accordingly.

77jester
04-01-2012, 12:32 AM
I don't think this has the significance that you are implying. In small amounts, yes, that was the case. The taint (what was likely an imperceptible amount of the Dark One's power - he just kind of did it as a parting blow) was enough to completely obliterate Shadar Logoth and destroy the bedrock in which Mashadar dwelled. Somehow I doubt that Fain somehow obtained many magnitudes more power along the way. I'd put my money on him against a Forsaken or Shaidar Haran, if he had the element of surprise in his favor, but not the Dark One.

Yes it does have the significance that I am implying. RJ went to great lengths explaining the correlation of those two opposing forces. You have Damer Flinn's explanation, Rand's PoV explanation where he describes it as the taint's opposite twin, and interviews of RJ explaining how the equal opposing nature of SL enabled Rand to siphon the taint off of Saidin.
The SL evil came from Mordeth and Mashadar, not the foundation and walls of the city. The walls and buildings of the city were contaminated in the same way that the walls of a nuclear reactor give off radiation, from absorbing it from the source. The simple fact that it completely eradicated the taint from Saidin implies that it is an equal force. Adding to that proof is the struggle between the opposing forces in Rand's never healing wound. Neither side is gaining dominance.

There's nothing in the books to indicate that the taint on Saidin was an imperceptible amount of the DO's power. The evidence points to the opposite. You have 69 of the strongest male aes sedai, channeling for all their worth since they don't have circles. And they touch Saidin to the DO directly causing all of them to instantly go insane. From the Strike at Shayol Ghul
Instead, there was the counterstroke from the Dark One at the moment of sealing, and saidin itself was tainted. Lews Therin and the sixty-eight survivors of the Hundred Companions went insane on the instant.
It was a direct touch not a projected blast.

I think that this mythology is much closer to Brandon Sanderson's Ruin and Preservation than Tolkien's Eru Iluvatar and Melkor/Morgoth. The most powerful of the races of the world could stand up to Morgoth once he had weakened himself by strengthening Ungoliant, and Sauron, and the Balrogs (even though Fingolfin ultimately died despite it all). Ruin was defeated through a trick, a ruse. Here, the Dark One is the counterpart to the Creator of the Multiverse.

I don't think it's going to come down to Fain directly fighting the Dark One. I think it will be much closer to a Gollum - he'll somehow distract the Dark One at a pivotal moment, allowing Rand to do what he needs to do. Not because Padan Fain can match the Dark One's strength, but because he's such a fundamentally different evil.

You go on to say much the same, but I couldn't agree with your initial characterization of Fain/Dark One as similar to Saidin/Saidar. It's more like matter/antimatter. They might obliterate each other, but there's a hell of a lot more of one than the other.

Again it's not my characterization of Fain/DO. I have provided several quotes showing that this is Robert Jordans explanation.
EMMA
Can you give some more details on how the taint was cleansed? I was sort of confused reading the book.
ROBERT JORDAN
You don't think it's obvious? Err, let's see. You have... You're using both repulsion and attraction of opposites here. Repulsion of things that are opposite and [attraction] of things that are the same. The Taint upon [saidin] as versus the conduit, which is made of saidar through which the saidin passes. The saidin and saidar, as men and women, are in many ways opposite. It repels one another. It is safe to make this conduit of saidar between saidin and Shadar Logoth, because there can be no mixing. As the eh... as [saidin] passes through, as the taint passes through, the saidar actually repels it, pushes it away from [saidin]..., alright?

Now, you have a taint on... the eh Source, the male half of the Source, you have the taint on Shadar Logoth. They're not the same, yet they are. The taint on Shadar Logoth did not come from the Dark One. The taint was created by humans, who believed that they must do whatever was necessary, anything that was necessary to defeat the Shadow. And because they would accept no limits to what they would do, to what could be done, to what needed to be done, they created their own destruction. Their evil is, or was, as great as that of the Dark One, but diametrically opposite. It is an evil created for the best of intentions, created for good intentions. So it is the opposite. So, this attraction created the conduit begins to pull the taint from [saidin] to siphon it off. Remember, it's always been described it's not as mixed all through [saidin], it is like a thin skin of rancidness, think of a thin skin of rancid oil floating on a pond, and if you get through it, you've got clean water, but you can't get through it without putting your hand in that oil. You're getting it on your hand...

To attract one another because they are opposites, but because even being opposite, they have gone far enough around the circle, they act to destroy one another. You see, it's not opposites along a straight line. We're actually talking opposites along a circle. Continuing the motif of the Wheel of Time, if you will. So you've got two things that are both opposites and the same. [He's been waving his hands in the air for this. Hands far apart for the straight line versus hands together, making a circle and coming together again] That will both attract one another and negate one another.

Despite my inclination that you're probably right that Fain won't last too long against the Dark One, it's a big presumption to assume that "not too long" is "only a few moments." We have absolutely no basis to put a time frame on our speculation here.



Well, it's all conceivable, except for Fain "Hulking out at the Dark One for killing Rand."
Fain doesn't need to "Hulk out" his evil IS as great as the Dark Ones.

Seth Baker
04-01-2012, 10:05 AM
The EVIL was as great as the Dark One - that does not mean that the STRENGTH of that evil was as great as the Dark One. The Dark One is the counterpart of the Creator. Shadar Logoth's evil was created by a few men's wickedness.

I understand that the evils are diametrically opposite. I also understand that the evil is as great as that of the Dark One. What I do not agree with is that it therefore follows that the magnitude of that evil; the total strength of the evil in Aridhol is capable of matching the strength of the counterpart of the Creator of the Wheel and the Multiverse. It's absurd.

Again, I reiterate: it's like matter and anti-matter. They'll obliterate each other, but there's simply more matter than anti-matter.

neurotopia
04-01-2012, 06:43 PM
I don't know about that. Fain seems to be getting exponentially stronger as he draws closer to SG. The Blight isn't even a challenge; it's more like a playground.

Seth Baker
04-01-2012, 10:19 PM
I don't know about that. Fain seems to be getting exponentially stronger as he draws closer to SG. The Blight isn't even a challenge; it's more like a playground.

And the only thing keeping the Dark One from ripping the Pattern apart and destroying the Wheel of Time is that the hole in his prison is too small.

I repeat - we're not talking about things that are equal in magnitude.

77jester
04-07-2012, 03:46 AM
The EVIL was as great as the Dark One - that does not mean that the STRENGTH of that evil was as great as the Dark One. The Dark One is the counterpart of the Creator. Shadar Logoth's evil was created by a few men's wickedness.

Yes it does. If you have two people armwrestling and neither one is gaining the advantage, they have equal strength. Plain and simple. Rand's never healing wound is this armwrestling match.

Mordeth and Padan Fain may have been simple men in the beginning, but they are no longer those simple men anymore. He's something else that hasn't been completely defined yet.

I understand that the evils are diametrically opposite. I also understand that the evil is as great as that of the Dark One. What I do not agree with is that it therefore follows that the magnitude of that evil; the total strength of the evil in Aridhol is capable of matching the strength of the counterpart of the Creator of the Wheel and the Multiverse. It's absurd.

Again, I reiterate: it's like matter and anti-matter. They'll obliterate each other, but there's simply more matter than anti-matter.

Do you even bother reading the quotes provided before you start spouting your opinions without evidence? The strength of the evil is NOT from the city. The evil is from Mordeth and Mashadar. That power was so strong that it tainted everything in the city. Which in turn proved to be EQUAL to the Dark Ones Taint.
If you disagree, fine. Provide some quotes to support your disagreement. My quotes show that this is what RJ was thinking.

GonzoTheGreat
04-07-2012, 04:36 AM
Yes it does. If you have two people armwrestling and neither one is gaining the advantage, they have equal strength. Plain and simple. Rand's never healing wound is this armwrestling match.
True.
And if Arnold Schwarzenegger and Paris Hilton throw two baseballs with precisely the same force at each other, those may hit and cancel each out. Doesn't prove that Arnold is as strong as Paris is, though, does it?

What is going on in Rand's wound is that there are two bits from two different evils, and those two bits happen to be more or less sort of evenly matched.
And, just to top it off: the wound which Ishamael caused (which is presumably based on the DO's power) has been subjected to a lot more Healing than the Padan Fain inflicted one has. Every time the latter was tackled by an Aes Sedai or Ashaman, the former was taken along too. But the initial wound had already been somewhat (or a lot) weakened by Lanfear, Verin, Moiraine, Nynaeve, and possibly others as well.

So there is no support at all from this side for the idea that the two evils are comparable in strength. Any estimate you would want to base on this (dodgy, considering the first point I raised here) is that the Shadow evil is more powerful than the Shadar Logoth version.

77jester
04-07-2012, 12:23 PM
True.
And if Arnold Schwarzenegger and Paris Hilton throw two baseballs with precisely the same force at each other, those may hit and cancel each out. Doesn't prove that Arnold is as strong as Paris is, though, does it?
There's two basic outcomes to "this" scenario.
1 the balls collide and rebound back to thrower with equal force. Unlikely unless Arnold throws underhand.
2 the balls collide, Arnold's ball is slowed down and Paris' ball blasts back in her face.

RJ's explanation for the counterstroke causing the taint do not imply that the DO held anything back. So you trying to equate Mordeth with Paris Hilton doesn't add up with the results of the cleansing.

What is going on in Rand's wound is that there are two bits from two different evils, and those two bits happen to be more or less sort of evenly matched.

RJ says equally matched several times, not "more or less sort of evenly matched"

And, just to top it off: the wound which Ishamael caused (which is presumably based on the DO's power) has been subjected to a lot more Healing than the Padan Fain inflicted one has. Every time the latter was tackled by an Aes Sedai or Ashaman, the former was taken along too. But the initial wound had already been somewhat (or a lot) weakened by Lanfear, Verin, Moiraine, Nynaeve, and possibly others as well.

This is just faulty logic. If the healing those women were doing actually affected the strength of the wound, they would have made some progress from the multiple attempts. Instead we have from Nynaeve's PoV in tFoH
She channeled the complex flows, Air and Water, Spirit, even Fire and Earth in small amount, that made up Healing. He did not roar and flail about. He did not even blink. He shivered. That was all. Then he took her wrists and brought her hands down from his face. She was not reluctant. His new injuries were gone, every bite and scrape and bruise, but not the old wound. Nothing had changed about that. Anything short of death should be capable of being Healed, even that.
This was before the second wound added to it, and quite some time after multiple healings. Nothing had changed.
If RJ wanted to imply that the SL evil only was equal because the the DO evil had been weakened by Healing, THIS was the opportunity for him to make such a statement. By the Ultimate Healer/Delver in all of Randland.
So there is no support at all from this side for the idea that the two evils are comparable in strength. Any estimate you would want to base on this (dodgy, considering the first point I raised here) is that the Shadow evil is more powerful than the Shadar Logoth version.
On the contrary there is no support for the Opinions you and Seth keep trying to portray as fact with no quotes as proof.

Flinn Sedai
04-07-2012, 02:55 PM
I really disagree. Not because the reasoning isn't solid, but we have a bit more information than Randlanders.

Q: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

RJ: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

The problem is that we know that the DO has been re-sealed previously. Presumably, Rand needs to figure out how the Dark One has been re-sealed before, and re-create that. What we know, though, is that Fain was not a part of that, before (since he didn't exist).


edit: Also, that last sentence really bugs me. Can't quite figure what that means.

77jester
04-09-2012, 03:42 PM
I really disagree. Not because the reasoning isn't solid, but we have a bit more information than Randlanders.

INTERVIEW: Dec 9th, 2002
Wotmania and Dragonmount Q&A
QUESTION
Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

ROBERT JORDAN
He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

The problem is that we know that the DO has been re-sealed previously. Presumably, Rand needs to figure out how the Dark One has been re-sealed before, and re-create that. What we know, though, is that Fain was not a part of that, before (since he didn't exist).


edit: Also, that last sentence really bugs me. Can't quite figure what that means.

RJ's interview quotes can be quite contradictory also though. How would you reconcile this quote?

INTERVIEW: May, 2001
Marcon Report - Sorilea (Paraphrased)
QUESTION
At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?
ROBERT JORDAN
"No...every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless."
SORILEA
This leads me to believe that this will not be the LAST BATTLE ever. It probably just comes about every turning of the Wheel, and since it has been such a long time ago, no one ever remembers it.
ROBERT JORDAN
RJ explained that that is what a lot of the WOT is about, the source of Legends, and how some legends are based in such a small bit of real history, that no one really knows where they came from. If they are real, or just made up.

If there is nothing unique about this age, how does Padan Fain get excluded from this generalization? I think it may have a lot to do with this quote.
INTERVIEW: Oct 9th, 1996
ACOS Signing Report - Erica Sadun (Paraphrased)
QUESTION
What is Fain?
ROBERT JORDAN
Mordeth + person. Mordeth is a human-made evil. The Black Wind gets along with Mordeth because of professional courtesy. Fain is anti-Forsaken as well as anti-Rand. He has a lot of skills and abilities outside of channeling. He can not channel.

QUESTION
Is this the "Another Power"?
ROBERT JORDAN
[laugh] I don't know.

and this quote.

INTERVIEW: Jan 25th, 2005
TOR Questions of the Week Part II (Verbatim)
WEEK 10 QUESTION
Now that Shadar Logoth is gone, (cool way to get rid of it by the way), has the evil power in Padan Fain/Mordeth/the Ruby Dagger decreased any? Has it driven him even more insane? Or since the next book is called Knife of Dreams, will all these questions be answered in it?
ROBERT JORDAN
The evil power in Padan Fain has neither decreased nor increased, nor has that in the dagger. The corruption in him was partly caused by the taint on Shadar Logoth, but it didn't constitute a real connection to the city. Remember that it was because he was Padan Fain, the Hound of the Shadow, that he was able to leave Shadar Logoth in his new condition after he merged with/absorbed Mordeth. (By the way, any other artifacts that might be lying around from Shadar Logoth would have the same long-term corrupting effect as the dagger. Fortunately, or unfortunately, any such thing would need to be metal or stone. The wood and fabric had decayed. It wouldn't have been pleasant to get a splinter from, say, a chair from Shadar Logoth.)

The destruction of Shadar Logoth has not driven Fain any more insane. I'm not certain he'd be able to function at all if he were any madder than he already is. But being insane doesn't make him any less dangerous, only less predictable. He no longer responds to situations or events in any sort of sane, logical manner. His abiding concerns are hatred of Rand al'Thor (and to a lesser degree Mat and Perrin) because he blames them for what the Dark One did to him in order to turn him into the Shadow's Hound, and hatred for the Dark One because of what the Dark One did to him. He goes after Rand because Rand is the easiest target in his mind, but if he can take a swipe at the Dark One or the Dark One's minions in some way that he felt would cause real harm, he'd leap at it.

I found it interesting that the question asked about Fain, Ruby Dagger, and Mordeth together. Yet RJ's response separated the powers individually. Padan Fain is the hound of the shadow. That's it. His ability to track Rand, Perrin and Mat will neither increase nor decrease.
The ruby dagger was tainted by Mordeth, just like the rest of Shadar Logoth. The tainted power it has will neither increase or decrease. One slash and you slowly disintegrate into dust.
He doesn't say anything about Mordeth's power other than that Mordeth and Fain Merge/absorbe into one person. In another interview he calls them an amalgamation.
We know for certain that the new Fain is showing signs that he is getting stronger. In tGH he struggled with the Mydraal for dominance, yet now in ToM he can't touch one without instantly killing them. So I think RJ is being clever in his wording when responding to questions about Fain. Keeping them together as the same person would make this answer a lie, but by referring to them separately like they were before they merged allows him to creatively bend the truth. Padan Fain has no real power, but Mor-Fain can walk unopposed in the Blight.

INTERVIEW: Apr 15th, 2011
JordanCon Signing Report - Ted Herman (Paraphrased)
QUESTION
How about Padan Fain and his talents?
ALAN ROMANCZUK
He acquired his talents when he merged with Mordeth, who [paraphrased a bit] got his from research and sucked the souls from his victims.
QUESTION
Was Padan Fain behind the killer fog in the Rahad?
ALAN ROMANCZUK
What do you think? LOL



INTERVIEW: Nov 21st, 2009
Driving Mr. Sanderson - Matt Hatch
MATT HATCH
Ok. Is Mordeth’s power, this evil power, comparable to the One Power and True Power? Is it a power that can be woven?

BRANDON SANDERSON
No, it’s more something along the lines of Perrin’s wolf power, something more natural; you couldn’t weave Mordeth.

MATT HATCH
Ok, so it’s more of a natural...

BRANDON SANDERSON
...it’s more of a natural, though it is unnatural. It’s an unnatural natural thing...

MATT HATCH
...because Jordan was really particular about...he tried to have a logic-based system as it pertained to the One Power. Is this power more supernatural in sense than it is based on physics?

BRANDON SANDERSON
Let’s say more instinctual, alright?

Mordeth, and his research, is the source of the power that repels the Dark Ones power. Brandon refers to it as an Ancient power like talking with wolves. This power is what I'm referring to as needed to hold back the Dark One as a plug while it is properly sealed. It has been around for the turnings of the wheel and is not unique to this Age.
You'll notice that most of the interview questions and answers are about either Padan Fain, or Mordeth, yet in ToM in the prologue he's called "the creature that had been Padan Fain". I find it intriguing that this distinction is very carefully kept. He splits hairs like an Aes Sedai.
It could be that Padan Fain's uniqueness is that we finally have a two-souler without the aid of the Dark One. Since Rand and Lews Therin have proved to not be two souls in one body, and Slayer is not really a two souler either with one soul in TaR and the other in RL.

He may have sidestepped the pattern by joining with Mordeth thus enabling him to stop being the Dark Ones hound.

But if you look at the other related quotes it becomes apparent how necessary his role is going to become.

INTERVIEW: Nov 21st, 2009
Driving Mr. Sanderson - Matt Hatch
MATT HATCH
Ok. You mentioned that Mordeth was a man that had "power". You are reported as saying that his power was that "which he got by seeking out all of the evil things that weren’t related to the Shadow"...

BRANDON SANDERSON
He was seeking things that were related to the Shadow. I think that that might be a misquote. He was looking into the power of the Shadow in order to defeat it, was his goal. He was looking into everything. He was looking into things that were not necessarily related to the Dark One as well. He was looking for everything that he could get...

MATT HATCH
..previous to him arriving to Aridhol?

BRANDON SANDERSON
...Yeah...

MATT HATCH
...before he went to the King and became the counselor, Mordeth was this guy that went around searching for Power?

BRANDON SANDERSON
Yeah, he wanted to defeat the Dark One and he felt that he could find other ways to do it [...] He originally was good. He did not...he wasn’t this terrible person to begin with but he was looking to defeat the Dark One, to find a way to defeat the Shadow. And he looked into a lot of things he shouldn’t have looked into. There are evils that are not necessarily directly related to the Dark One, though everything evil kind of has...just as there are goods that are not related necessarily to the One Power...we are talking much as Perrin runs with wolves. This is a thing older than...there are other evils things that are old in a similar way...
MATT HATCH
...is the assumption then that he found one of these?

BRANDON SANDERSON
He did.

MATT HATCH
He found one or multiple?

BRANDON SANDERSON
He found many things of darkness. There is one in specific that is driving him but he knew too much. He found things he should not have gotten into and that is what turned him into...when he got there he was already corrupt. He still thought he was doing a good work. He still thought we are going to raise this Kingdom up and it is going to become this bastion against the Shadow, but he was already by then corrupted.

MATT HATCH
Is this same corrupting influence what corrupts everyone through the dagger itself?

BRANDON SANDERSON
Yeah. Through him, yes. And even through his presence.

MATT HATCH
[Hah—Maybe I should have asked if Mordeth was under the influence of the Finns...or at the very least if they were one of the powers he found in his quest... ]

Brandon basically confirms that Mordeth found something in his study that could defeat the Dark One, but he was already twisted from other things to use it correctly. Instead of defeating the Dark One like he set out to do, he made a different type of evil that was instrumental in defeating the Dark Ones Taint.

INTERVIEW: Nov 15th, 1998
TPOD Signing Report - Michael Martin (Paraphrased)
MICHAEL MARTIN
Next two questions were essentially the same, just about different characters: Had he always known the size and importance of the roles of Fain and Cadsuane?
ROBERT JORDAN
Yes.

INTERVIEW: Oct 21st, 1994
AOL Chat 2 (Verbatim)
QUESTION
What is Padan Fain's overall role in the Wheel Of Time (besides hating Rand with a passion)?
ROBERT JORDAN
Read and find out ... except you should be able to figure out most of it by now. Think a little bit—it's all there, really.

From the information we have in the books and the plethora of explanations in the Interview Database, I have no doubt that Mor-Fain (probably accompanied by Mashadar) will be instrumental in allowing the forces of Light to completely seal the Dark Ones prison completely like it was before the bore.
Incidentally, if Matt Hatch is correct in his assumption that Mordeth acquired his power from the Finns. Mat Cauthon may recognize the Mordeth part of Mor-Fain if the accent sounds familiar. Possibly even have a memory resurface.

neurotopia
04-09-2012, 11:01 PM
And the only thing keeping the Dark One from ripping the Pattern apart and destroying the Wheel of Time is that the hole in his prison is too small.

I repeat - we're not talking about things that are equal in magnitude.

If that's the case, there's still a Thermopylae situation in the works- the "weaker" Fain can hold his own against the DO as long as the flow of the DO's strength is limited by the size of the bore.

GonzoTheGreat
04-10-2012, 04:24 AM
RJ's interview quotes can be quite contradictory also though. How would you reconcile this quote?

If there is nothing unique about this age, how does Padan Fain get excluded from this generalization?
It is a matter of scale, I think.

If you have a closeup of Moiraine and Demandred, then they are quite different. But if you view either from 5 miles away, they are the same: simply human, with nothing more discernible.
The same could be true with the various Ages: if you look up close, you see all sorts of differences (the White Tower being beige, court bards performing rap music, Mordeth being a greengrocer, and so forth) but if you look at the big picture, there's no real difference at all.

77jester
04-24-2012, 12:24 AM
It is a matter of scale, I think.

If you have a closeup of Moiraine and Demandred, then they are quite different. But if you view either from 5 miles away, they are the same: simply human, with nothing more discernible.
The same could be true with the various Ages: if you look up close, you see all sorts of differences (the White Tower being beige, court bards performing rap music, Mordeth being a greengrocer, and so forth) but if you look at the big picture, there's no real difference at all.


And this is exactly why I brought the quote up to begin with. For all we know in the previous turnings of the wheel the person wielding the evil power that Mor-Fain has now could have been a woman, or an Ogier.

To use RJ's quote as proof that the amalgamation of Padan Fain and Mordeth being unique to this age renders their use in the last battle obsolete, is not looking at the whole picture.

As a person, he/they may be unique and sidestepped the pattern. But it's the evil power that Mordeth researched, sought after, and discovered that will be essential in safely resealing the bore.

Look carefully at this quote from Brandon again.

MATT HATCH
...before he went to the King and became the counselor, Mordeth was this guy that went around searching for Power?

BRANDON SANDERSON
Yeah, he wanted to defeat the Dark One and he felt that he could find other ways to do it [...] He originally was good. He did not...he wasn’t this terrible person to begin with but he was looking to defeat the Dark One, to find a way to defeat the Shadow. And he looked into a lot of things he shouldn’t have looked into. There are evils that are not necessarily directly related to the Dark One, though everything evil kind of has...just as there are goods that are not related necessarily to the One Power...we are talking much as Perrin runs with wolves. This is a thing older than...there are other evils things that are old in a similar way...

MATT HATCH
...is the assumption then that he found one of these?

BRANDON SANDERSON
He did.

MATT HATCH
He found one or multiple?

BRANDON SANDERSON
He found many things of darkness. There is one in specific that is driving him but he knew too much. He found things he should not have gotten into and that is what turned him into...when he got there he was already corrupt. He still thought he was doing a good work. He still thought we are going to raise this Kingdom up and it is going to become this bastion against the Shadow, but he was already by then corrupted.


Brandon plainly tells Matt that Mordeth found the power that he was looking for to defeat the Dark One.


The simple fact that he had to research it implies that it was ancient, very likely used before in the previous turnings of the wheel. We don't know which of Mordeth's abilities is the special one since he aquired several. If Mordeth didn't get corrupted by the other things he researched, who knows he may have succeeded himself. For all we know, the pattern may have forced him to fail in that first attempt since he wasn't the Dragon. Involving him/Fain in the last battle for a rematch could be how Mor-Fain sidesteps the pattern.

But irregardless Lews Therin already knows how to "seal the bore". His seals, made with Saidin only, held for over 3000 yrs. If Saidar was used also, all indications point to them being stronger and more effective, if not perfect. The only drawback is the inevitability of a counterstroke tainting both Saidin and Saidar. We now know this happens when the seals touch the Dark One directly.
So the Light side's only real concern is what to touch the new and improved seals to. The answer Mor-Fain's sweaty back-side as he goes toe to toe with the Dark One :D

GonzoTheGreat
04-24-2012, 03:14 AM
Actually, the Light now knows how to get rid of the Taint. It might take a bit longer without the Choedan Kal, but that would be a matter of days or weeks, not thousands of years.

So having saidin and saidar tainted would be very inconvenient, and it would kill/drive mad all those who were directly involved in the Sealing. But if the others then act quickly to deal with the problem, then this could still be a very good overall solution to the problem of dealing with the DO.

Grig
04-24-2012, 09:06 AM
Brandon plainly tells Matt that Mordeth found the power that he was looking for to defeat the Dark One.

Holy quotemine Batman! Let's try that again.

MATT HATCH
...before he went to the King and became the counselor, Mordeth was this guy that went around searching for Power?

BRANDON SANDERSON
Yeah, he wanted to defeat the Dark One and he felt that he could find other ways to do it [...] He originally was good. He did not...he wasn’t this terrible person to begin with but he was looking to defeat the Dark One, to find a way to defeat the Shadow. And he looked into a lot of things he shouldn’t have looked into. There are evils that are not necessarily directly related to the Dark One, though everything evil kind of has...just as there are goods that are not related necessarily to the One Power...we are talking much as Perrin runs with wolves. This is a thing older than...there are other evils things that are old in a similar way...

MATT HATCH
...is the assumption then that he found one of these?


BRANDON SANDERSON
He did.

I'm not saying my bolding is more valid than yours, but either is possible, and neither would be Brandon twisting words or being tricky. And yours makes more assumptions than mine.



Actually, the Light now knows how to get rid of the Taint. It might take a bit longer without the Choedan Kal, but that would be a matter of days or weeks, not thousands of years.

Care to elaborate? There's no longer that large source of the Aridhol taint to use as a suction force. I suppose they could throw a hell of a lot of the tainted Power at either Mat or Padan Fain (or maybe Egwene, she spent a lot of time with Fain), but unless they are willing to spend a decade or a century or so along with a handy seed of Aridhol's evil to corrupt a whole new city, they won't have the same situation that Rand was able to take advantage of. The lack of the Choedan Kal is not the only issue.

GonzoTheGreat
04-24-2012, 09:11 AM
Can't they stuff it into a Stedding or something?

Flinn Sedai
04-24-2012, 02:04 PM
Can't they stuff it into a Stedding or something?

No

Zombie Sammael
04-24-2012, 02:14 PM
Can't they stuff it into a Stedding or something?

It seems like a daft idea, but when you consider that the Book of Translation supposedly brings over bits of another universe to serve as stedding, and that (as LTT and the Hundred Companions discovered) there's no repairing the work of the Creator, stuffing it all into a stedding might not be a bad idea. Even if I'm right and the book actually alters the main world to resemble Ogierland, this still might be useful for sealing up the prison if it shows how to repair defects in the existing pattern. Otherwise, we're stuck with a bore leading to absolute evil and a temporary patch.

Swordcrowned
04-24-2012, 04:33 PM
I actually like the idea that Fain/Mordeth is going to play a large role in the last battle. I have been laboring under this assumption for years and years. I was actually going to start another reread in a month or so when i finish my current two series and go thru and pick out direct quotes I think relate to Fain/Mordeth and the last battle.

Alot of emphasis is put into the fact that this war is played over and over and over again during the turning of the wheel. And as each new book is releases, we are continually reunited with a well known phrase (and reminded) "There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of time. But it was a beginning." Now I know we are lead to believe that this is a battle that has been going on for a possible infinite amount of time, but if the Dark One believes that he can defeat the Light and derail the pattern/Wheel of time, is it so hard to believe that the Creator/Light can defeat the Dark One permanently?

I dont have the actually quotes, but i believe it was when Rand was speaking to Herid Fel about the bore and the seals on the Dark Ones prison. They were speaking about the Wheel of Time, and how if time was circular, then at some point there was NO PATCH on the Dark Ones prison. Which means it was created in its entirety. Well, if it was created, then there is reason to believe that the Dark One, at one point in time at the (or A)beginning, was not powerful enough to need a prison. If he didn't need a prison, then there must have been a long period of peace and prosperity, leading up to the time that he became powerful enough to need to be defeated and imprisoned. Which would lead to another long period of time in which he was forgotten and then innocently tapped as another force of power besides the One Power. Which would lead to another long period of time in which the shadow of the Dark One would reign over the world.

Like I said, I haven't had time to do a lot of research on this, but I do plan on it, as well as expounding on this further, but here is my thoughts on how Fain/Mordeth possible plays a roll in the last battle.

A) The dark one is defeated and Fain/Mordeth takes the place in the next turning of the wheel of time. (I like this one the most. With the quote from above from RJ about how Fain "unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern", it seems to fit my ideas. Fain causes a slight shift in the wheel of time and creates a new beginning, which leads up to another period of the wheel spinning, and infinite battles between the creator and the new Dark One).

B) The Dark Ones prison is completely recreated with both the Dark One and Fain locked inside. This would weaken the powers of the Darkside to an extent that there would be ages of peace and freedom, which would give the world time to forget that fact that there was ever any dark forces in the world, which would allow the wheel to spin back around to the initial breaking of the dark ones prison. (This is assuming that my previous comments about the fact that there was a time without a prison at all is false. I like the first idea better, but this one is my alternative.)

I also like the idea that Jester came up with about Fain being the key to sealing up the dark one. If using Saidin/Saidar to close up the bore could possible taint both, then using a neutral power would make alot of sense. Since Fain is possible the only other power in the world that can stand up to the power of the Dark One, it would make since to use him as some type of link in sealing the bore again.

Flinn Sedai
04-24-2012, 10:46 PM
It's also worth bringing up, that we're all operating on a false assumption.

We know that, at some point in the turning of the Wheel, the Dark One will be resealed completely. Theoretically speaking, there is no reason it has to happen now. The Dragon could just reseal him with the Seals in place, and leave it for another time.

Granted, I don't think that's particularly likely, but RJ has said that everything won't be completely resolved. He said that there will be major threads left hanging...

/trollface

Swordcrowned
04-24-2012, 11:02 PM
Thats a good point. I am basing my ideas on the fact that the DO is defeated simply because that is what I want to believe happens.

Flinn Sedai
04-24-2012, 11:04 PM
Well, I'm pointing out more that the Dark One can be defeated, and still not be completely re-sealed, as when Beidomon and Mierin found it. Although, you bring up a relevant point, that we don't know he'll be defeated.

77jester
04-25-2012, 12:04 AM
I'm not saying my bolding is more valid than yours, but either is possible, and neither would be Brandon twisting words or being tricky. And yours makes more assumptions than mine.

That's true, the meaning could change easily depending on which sentence was supposed to be emphasized. However if you continue reading the whole quote, the context shows that the sentences I emphasized were correct. I provided the whole quote earlier, but apparently I shouldn't have only used part of it this time. So here it is again.

INTERVIEW: Nov 21st, 2009
Driving Mr. Sanderson - Matt Hatch
MATT HATCH
Ok. You mentioned that Mordeth was a man that had "power". You are reported as saying that his power was that "which he got by seeking out all of the evil things that weren’t related to the Shadow"...

BRANDON SANDERSON
He was seeking things that were related to the Shadow. I think that that might be a misquote. He was looking into the power of the Shadow in order to defeat it, was his goal. He was looking into everything. He was looking into things that were not necessarily related to the Dark One as well. He was looking for everything that he could get...

MATT HATCH
..previous to him arriving to Aridhol?

BRANDON SANDERSON
...Yeah...

MATT HATCH
...before he went to the King and became the counselor, Mordeth was this guy that went around searching for Power?

BRANDON SANDERSON
Yeah, he wanted to defeat the Dark One and he felt that he could find other ways to do it [...] He originally was good. He did not...he wasn’t this terrible person to begin with but he was looking to defeat the Dark One, to find a way to defeat the Shadow. And he looked into a lot of things he shouldn’t have looked into. There are evils that are not necessarily directly related to the Dark One, though everything evil kind of has...just as there are goods that are not related necessarily to the One Power...we are talking much as Perrin runs with wolves. This is a thing older than...there are other evils things that are old in a similar way...
MATT HATCH
...is the assumption then that he found one of these?

BRANDON SANDERSON
He did.

MATT HATCH
He found one or multiple?

BRANDON SANDERSON
He found many things of darkness. There is one in specific that is driving him but he knew too much. He found things he should not have gotten into and that is what turned him into...when he got there he was already corrupt. He still thought he was doing a good work. He still thought we are going to raise this Kingdom up and it is going to become this bastion against the Shadow, but he was already by then corrupted.

MATT HATCH
Is this same corrupting influence what corrupts everyone through the dagger itself?

BRANDON SANDERSON
Yeah. Through him, yes. And even through his presence.

MATT HATCH
[Hah—Maybe I should have asked if Mordeth was under the influence of the Finns...or at the very least if they were one of the powers he found in his quest... ]

Notice that Brandon differentiated between "the many things of darkness" that he found and "the one that is driving him". Mordeth acquired more than one power. The "other evil things" that you highlighted are what prevented him from being able to use the "one of them that drives him" successfully.

We know from the cleansing of Saidin, and the never healing wound, that something in Mordeth's arsenal can successfully compete with the Dark One's power. So the safe conclusion is that I highlighted/emphasized correctly. He found something that could defeat the Dark One. Not just a bunch of unrelated evils.

77jester
04-25-2012, 12:19 AM
It's also worth bringing up, that we're all operating on a false assumption.

We know that, at some point in the turning of the Wheel, the Dark One will be resealed completely. Theoretically speaking, there is no reason it has to happen now. The Dragon could just reseal him with the Seals in place, and leave it for another time.

Granted, I don't think that's particularly likely, but RJ has said that everything won't be completely resolved. He said that there will be major threads left hanging...

/trollface

Well we do have Avhiendha's vision of the future. In it the battle is over and the Dragon's peace lasted for several decades. The Ashaman and Aes Sedai are still around to fight the Seanchan and aren't going insane, so The Dark One had to be safely sealed without a counter strike. All in all that sounds like defeat to me.
Whether they simply apply new seals or actually make his prison whole again now doesn't really matter. He still loses in the next book.

Ishara
04-25-2012, 10:16 AM
That's ONLY assuming her vision is a) a true one, and b) actually going to happen. We have no way of knowing either. It could have been a scenario designed to influence her frame of mind to ensure that such a future does not happen. It could have been one of many possible futures. For this particular chain of events to occur depends on so many factors other than her, I see no reason to think that it WILL happen, just that it could.

Swordcrowned
04-25-2012, 12:51 PM
That's ONLY assuming her vision is a) a true one, and b) actually going to happen. We have no way of knowing either. It could have been a scenario designed to influence her frame of mind to ensure that such a future does not happen. It could have been one of many possible futures. For this particular chain of events to occur depends on som may factors other thanher, I see no reason to think that it WILL happen, just that it could.

I agree with Ishara. I dont think this is the future so much as what could happen if the things are not changed. While I guess it would be possible for RJ to go ahead and give us the future after the last battle, I think it would be much more likely for him to just leave it up to us.

77jester
04-25-2012, 10:50 PM
That's ONLY assuming her vision is a) a true one, and b) actually going to happen. We have no way of knowing either. It could have been a scenario designed to influence her frame of mind to ensure that such a future does not happen. It could have been one of many possible futures. For this particular chain of events to occur depends on so many factors other than her, I see no reason to think that it WILL happen, just that it could.

Aviendhas vision was a result of reversing the order she passed through the Aiel history ter-angreal columns, not the rings. All other previous visits through it were actual true events. They weren't probable histories. Why would you assume all of a sudden that this ter-angreal would change the mechanics of the visions to possibilities instead of actual events?
Granted we're all hoping that Aviendha figures out how to change future as she saw it. But I don't see a reason to doubt the validity of it as a true vision of the future. Now if she would have had this vision by going through the rings again than yes we could assume that it is only a possibility.

Flinn Sedai
04-25-2012, 10:56 PM
Aviendhas vision was a result of reversing the order she passed through the Aiel history ter-angreal columns, not the rings. All other previous visits through it were actual true events. They weren't probable histories. Why would you assume all of a sudden that this ter-angreal would change the mechanics of the visions to possibilities instead of actual events?
Granted we're all hoping that Aviendha figures out how to change future as she saw it. But I don't see a reason to doubt the validity of it as a true vision of the future. Now if she would have had this vision by going through the rings again than yes we could assume that it is only a possibility.

Because the WoT cosmology is built around the Multiple Worlds theory.

77jester
04-25-2012, 11:04 PM
Because the WoT cosmology is built around the Multiple Worlds theory.

The WoT yes but not that specific ter-angreal. It was designed to show specific events in the past that actually happened. Not multiple worlds possibilities.

Flinn Sedai
04-25-2012, 11:23 PM
The WoT yes but not that specific ter-angreal. It was designed to show specific events in the past that actually happened. Not multiple worlds possibilities.

I don't understand...

If the entirety of WoT works on the theory that every world that can happen, must happen (to keep it as simplified as possible), then how can you have a definite future?

Think about it like Back to the Future. In that cosmology, you can do exactly as McFly did. You travel along a linear timeline, and thus, alterations at one point, have compounding effects on another.

Under the Multiple Worlds theory, he's already done it. And not done it. And tried other things. You travel along a line of probability. In those circumstances, McFly's trip to the past hasn't changed anything. When he travels forwards again, he's traveling to a specific time (in relative terms), but on a specific line of probability. When he travels back to the future, nothing has changed, because he's at the same time, in the same probability line in which he began.

This is similar. Because of the state of particles are indeterminate at the quantum level, it is impossible for there to be a definite future.

That's also why prophecy, as accurate as it is, cannot predict exactly what will happen. They're more accurately described in conditional statements. "If A, then B."

That's what made Min so unique. She was able to make definite determinations about the future. I've begun thinking about her in terms of wave functions. That is to say, she's able to do it because of the impending Last Battle. Wave functions are collapsing, and as such, certain points are definite. Those more directly involved in the Last Battle are more likely to have have wave functions around them collapse. Thus, Ta'veren, Aes Sedai, etc... all have more definite points.

A bit off-topic, maybe. Basically, there is no definite future in all of WoT. Thus, no ter'angreal can show a definite future.

maleshub
04-25-2012, 11:24 PM
The WoT yes but not that specific ter-angreal. It was designed to show specific events in the past that actually happened. Not multiple worlds possibilities.

But the past already happened. It is easy to "replay the tape." The future on the other hand is not; and is subject to variables that can change it.

Otherwise, why the whole series? We know Rand will win in the end. Or will he? If he will always win, why the constant turning of the wheel? Why not a single straight line?

77jester
04-26-2012, 12:00 AM
I don't understand...

If the entirety of WoT works on the theory that every world that can happen, must happen (to keep it as simplified as possible), then how can you have a definite future?

Think about it like Back to the Future. In that cosmology, you can do exactly as McFly did. You travel along a linear timeline, and thus, alterations at one point, have compounding effects on another.

Under the Multiple Worlds theory, he's already done it. And not done it. And tried other things. You travel along a line of probability. In those circumstances, McFly's trip to the past hasn't changed anything. When he travels forwards again, he's traveling to a specific time (in relative terms), but on a specific line of probability. When he travels back to the future, nothing has changed, because he's at the same time, in the same probability line in which he began.

This is similar. Because of the state of particles are indeterminate at the quantum level, it is impossible for there to be a definite future.

That's also why prophecy, as accurate as it is, cannot predict exactly what will happen. They're more accurately described in conditional statements. "If A, then B."

That's what made Min so unique. She was able to make definite determinations about the future. I've begun thinking about her in terms of wave functions. That is to say, she's able to do it because of the impending Last Battle. Wave functions are collapsing, and as such, certain points are definite. Those more directly involved in the Last Battle are more likely to have have wave functions around them collapse. Thus, Ta'veren, Aes Sedai, etc... all have more definite points.

A bit off-topic, maybe. Basically, there is no definite future in all of WoT. Thus, no ter'angreal can show a definite future.

And yet you just proved my point with the example of Min. Most of the other Ter-angreals work on that principle of the multiple possibilities. However the glass columns were unique in that they were designed specifically for the true history of the Aiel. If the WoT allows for an ability like Min's to exist, there's no reason why the reversal of the glass columns can't be the same. If your theory about Min's ability being more prolific because of the breakdown of the wave functions is true, then you have no reason to exclude the glass columns from that assumption either. For 3000 yrs they have served the one function. Here we are with the Pattern unraveling and now Aviendha just happens to reverse the order of the one ter-angreal that we know isn't random.

As for prophecy and Foretelling, your confusing them with Dreaming. It was the four Dreamers that told Moraine If A happens then B will occur. Prophecy and Foretelling, though vague and often misunderstood, have always come true exactly as stated.

77jester
04-26-2012, 12:13 AM
But the past already happened. It is easy to "replay the tape." The future on the other hand is not; and is subject to variables that can change it.

Otherwise, why the whole series? We know Rand will win in the end. Or will he? If he will always win, why the constant turning of the wheel? Why not a single straight line?

And yet if the variables are eliminated one by one, eventually there is only going to be one possibility. There's no possible way for Semiharage or Sammael to kill Rand. Those possible forks can't exist in this timeline anymore since they have been eliminated from the equation. The series has been slowly whittling away the opposition that we're running out of variables.

Flinn Sedai
04-26-2012, 12:24 AM
And yet you just proved my point with the example of Min.

No, I didn't.

Most of the other Ter-angreals work on that principle of the multiple possibilities. However the glass columns were unique in that they were designed specifically for the true history of the Aiel.

Another person might observe that we haven't seen alternative pasts, and just alternative futures. Because according to multiple world theory, an individual traveled (past tense) along a definite probability line, from their perspective, and travels (future tense), along an indefinite probability line.

If the WoT allows for an ability like Min's to exist, there's no reason why the reversal of the glass columns can't be the same.

Absolutely there is. Let me try to make it more clear. Min doesn't see the future. She is able to see definite points. That is to say, certain things which will occur. To be more specific, *individual events*. A marriage. A death. That kind of thing.

What she does not see is, "You will go to the market. While at the market, you will take 3 steps inside, look to the right, and see a truly appealing watermelon. You will squeeze it two times, and then decide to place it in your cart. The wheel on your cart will squeak. You will find it irritating."

Hers is closer to saying, "You will get a watermelon." This is because there is still uncertainty in what will occur. The only definite point, the only point which had the wave form collapse, was the person getting a watermelon. It could be that the person was about to leave the store without getting a watermelon, when it turns out they can't keep the watermelon in the store, and give it to them for free. Because that SPECIFIC thing has to happen.

If your theory about Min's ability being more prolific because of the breakdown of the wave functions is true, then you have no reason to exclude the glass columns from that assumption either.

I didn't say it was more prolific. I said it was possible because of that. And even that only makes certain points possible. As I just explained, even if I was saying that, it still wouldn't allow for the glass columns to show a definite future.

For 3000 yrs they have served the one function. Here we are with the Pattern unraveling and now Aviendha just happens to reverse the order of the one ter-angreal that we know isn't random.

So, you're saying that in the Age of Legends when, according to the concept you're presupposing, seeing a definite future in this method is impossible, they still built something that could, under these specific, unknowable circumstances, tell a definite future? That'd be like us building a weapon that won't be usable for 3000 years, because we think it might start working then.

As for prophecy and Foretelling, your confusing them with Dreaming. It was the four Dreamers that told Moraine If A happens then B will occur. Prophecy and Foretelling, though vague and often misunderstood, have always come true exactly as stated.

I am not confusing them. Moiraine is quite clear in explaining that the Prophecies are not an instruction manual on winning. It's preconditions on what must occur for there to be a chance at winning. This is confirmed by nearly every person in Wheel of Time. That Rand is able to be killed. He doesn't HAVE to fight at the Last Battle. He just has to, if there is to be any chance of winning.

And if that still isn't enough proof, we saw it EXPLICITLY in ToM. The Aes Sedai Foretold about the meeting with the Borderlanders and Rand.

She didn't say, "You will ask A, and he will answer B."
She said, "You *must* ask A, and *if he doesn't answer correctly* you must kill him."

edit: And if you want the exact quotes, I'll be happy to provide them.

77jester
04-26-2012, 03:29 AM
No, I didn't.

Yes you did. If I say something is possible and you disagree saying it's impossible, you chose the side where only one outcome makes you right. But then you went and gave the exception to your rule, Min. Now it's no longer impossible.


Another person might observe that we haven't seen alternative pasts, and just alternative futures. Because according to multiple world theory, an individual traveled (past tense) along a definite probability line, from their perspective, and travels (future tense), along a definite probability line.

I'm not sure what your point is with this statement. It sounds like your just repeating what I said using MWT.
Rhuarc told Rand that once they reach the step of the sharing of water, they all see the same thing. The glass columns follow a linear path that vary only with the first few ancestors. They are different from the 3 rings that the apprentices go through and the accepted test rings. Those show multiple possibilities.



Absolutely there is. Let me try to make it more clear. Min doesn't see the future. She is able to see definite points. That is to say, certain things which will occur. To be more specific, *individual events*. A marriage. A death. That kind of thing.

What she does not see is, "You will go to the market. While at the market, you will take 3 steps inside, look to the right, and see a truly appealing watermelon. You will squeeze it two times, and then decide to place it in your cart. The wheel on your cart will squeak. You will find it irritating."

Hers is closer to saying, "You will get a watermelon." This is because there is still uncertainty in what will occur. The only definite point, the only point which had the wave form collapse, was the person getting a watermelon. It could be that the person was about to leave the store without getting a watermelon, when it turns out they can't keep the watermelon in the store, and give it to them for free. Because that SPECIFIC thing has to happen.


Your not making this more clear. You're trying to use her vagueness to prove it's not absolute. Sure she doesn't tell every detail like watching a movie, but when she says something will happen, it does with no exceptions. Once she sees an image that she knows what it means, there's no stopping it from happening no matter how hard people try to change it. This has been repeated over and over again. "Definite points" are still foretelling the future.



I didn't say it was more prolific. I said it was possible because of that. And even that only makes certain points possible. As I just explained, even if I was saying that, it still wouldn't allow for the glass columns to show a definite future.

You may not have meant to say more prolific, but your previous explanation did.
That's what made Min so unique. She was able to make definite determinations about the future. I've begun thinking about her in terms of wave functions. That is to say, she's able to do it because of the impending Last Battle. Wave functions are collapsing, and as such, certain points are definite. Those more directly involved in the Last Battle are more likely to have have wave functions around them collapse. Thus, Ta'veren, Aes Sedai, etc... all have more definite points.

"Collapsing" implies continued action. The more waves that collapse, or variables eliminated, the more availability of definitive points. Prolific is defined as producing in large quantities or with great frequency.

Given that criteria, with the collapse of more and more waves or variables, it's possible that this close to the endgame the glass columns could be manipulated to "foretell" a few specific events that have now become fixed.



So, you're saying that in the Age of Legends when, according to the concept you're presupposing, seeing a definite future in this method is impossible, they still built something that could, under these specific, unknowable circumstances, tell a definite future? That'd be like us building a weapon that won't be usable for 3000 years, because we think it might start working then.

No that's not what I was saying. I said they built a ter-angreal that showed a linear timeline, not multiple possibilities. The only one that we know of in existence. Aviendha manipulated this one. Not one of the multiple possibility ter-angreal. She was the one that changed it's function. Could it have worked this way in the AoL? Maybe, we don't know any of the variables to say.


I am not confusing them. Moiraine is quite clear in explaining that the Prophecies are not an instruction manual on winning. It's preconditions on what must occur for there to be a chance at winning. This is confirmed by nearly every person in Wheel of Time. That Rand is able to be killed. He doesn't HAVE to fight at the Last Battle. He just has to, if there is to be any chance of winning.

You're still confusing this. Moraines explanation to Rand wasn't to say that the prophecies wouldn't happen eventually. It was to tell him that he couldn't force it to happen when he wanted it to. She was trying to tell him that even she didn't know enough to interpret what the meaning was. I still find it funny that she hypocritically was trying to do that herself by encouraging him to go to war with Illian.
Despite their ignorance the prophecies have been proving to be true with and or without peoples efforts to the contrary.


And if that still isn't enough proof, we saw it EXPLICITLY in ToM. The Aes Sedai Foretold about the meeting with the Borderlanders and Rand.

She didn't say, "You will ask A, and he will answer B."
She said, "You *must* ask A, and *if he doesn't answer correctly* you must kill him."

edit: And if you want the exact quotes, I'll be happy to provide them.

No need here it is

“I see him before you! Him, the one who lives many lives, the one who gives deaths, the one who raises mountains. He will break what he must break, but first he stands here, before our king. You will bloody him! Measure his restraint. He speaks! How was the fallen slain? Tellindal Tirraso, murdered by his hand, the darkness that came the day after the light. You must ask, and you must know your fate. If he cannot answer, then you will be lost. You will bring his end swiftly, so that the final days may have their storm. So that Light may not be consumed by he who was to have preserved it. I see him. And I weep.”
—Recited by King Paitar of Arafel, Towers of Midnight, Chapter 51

They all disagreed on the interpretation of this prophecy. Rand pointed out that if they would have asked him a month earlier he would have balefired them before they could have asked. Rand goes on to tell them that this prophecy was a declaration of what might happen, not advice. For all we know the purpose of this prophecy was to motivate the borderland rulers to gather in one place for Rand bring them to Merilor.

Flinn Sedai
04-26-2012, 04:31 AM
Yes you did. If I say something is possible and you disagree saying it's impossible, you chose the side where only one outcome makes you right. But then you went and gave the exception to your rule, Min. Now it's no longer impossible.

You not understanding what I'm saying doesn't make you right.

I'm not sure what your point is with this statement. It sounds like your just repeating what I said using MWT.
Rhuarc told Rand that once they reach the step of the sharing of water, they all see the same thing. The glass columns follow a linear path that vary only with the first few ancestors. They are different from the 3 rings that the apprentices go through and the accepted test rings. Those show multiple possibilities.

You do understand the difference between past and future, right? I'm not the only one to try to explain this, and the only way you can't be getting it at this point is if you legitimately cannot differentiate between the two.

Your not making this more clear. You're trying to use her vagueness to prove it's not absolute.

No, I'm using her vagueness to prove that the events surrounding the pre-determined event, is vague, and uncertain.

Sure she doesn't tell every detail like watching a movie, but when she says something will happen, it does with no exceptions. Once she sees an image that she knows what it means, there's no stopping it from happening no matter how hard people try to change it. This has been repeated over and over again. "Definite points" are still foretelling the future.

Yep. I already agreed. That was why I provided an example. See, saying, "You will get a watermelon" is definite. It must occur. However, it isn't definite how you will get the watermelon. The glass columns, as you're describing them, requires that the Multiple Worlds theory is not in effect. That there is only one possible timeline. Only one possible sequence of events. We know this because it shows a SEQUENCE OF EVENTS. You're saying it is definite. Thus, a definite sequence of events. Thus, there is only one sequence of events possible.

What you're describing is not possible in the cosmology of Wheel of Time.

You may not have meant to say more prolific, but your previous explanation did.


"Collapsing" implies continued action. The more waves that collapse, or variables eliminated, the more availability of definitive points. Prolific is defined as producing in large quantities or with great frequency.

So, something happening, means it is prolific? You literally just proved that I said it occurs (establishing that there is a frequency), and then determined that it was great.

More importantly, you shoved those words into my mouth. My mouth is a no-hands zone. There are signs up and everything.

Given that criteria, with the collapse of more and more waves or variables, it's possible that this close to the endgame the glass columns could be manipulated to "foretell" a few specific events that have now become fixed.

No that's not what I was saying. I said they built a ter-angreal that showed a linear timeline, not multiple possibilities.

How? Why would they have that capacity? By your own admission, that wouldn't even have been possible when it was created.

The only one that we know of in existence. Aviendha manipulated this one. Not one of the multiple possibility ter-angreal. She was the one that changed it's function. Could it have worked this way in the AoL? Maybe, we don't know any of the variables to say.

On what are you basing that? We've literally ONLY seen ter'angreal that show possible futures, and you're insisting that this one is the ONLY one that shows definite futures. That's pure, unsubstantiated speculation. There is no evidence to back it up, and tons to support it not being true.

You're still confusing this. Moraines explanation to Rand wasn't to say that the prophecies wouldn't happen eventually. It was to tell him that he couldn't force it to happen when he wanted it to. She was trying to tell him that even she didn't know enough to interpret what the meaning was.

Admittedly, I was wrong on that. It wasn't Moiraine. It was Suian.


"Yes, Moiraine. You do not have to remind me. I've lived with the Prophecies of the Dragon as long as you." The Amyrlin shook her head. "Never more than one false Dragon in a generation since the Breaking, and now three loose in the world at one time, and three more in the past two years. The Pattern demands a Dragon because the Pattern weaves toward Tarmon Gai'don. Sometimes doubt fills me, Moiraine." She said it musingly, as if wondering at it, and went on in the same tone. "What if Logain was the one? He could channel, before the Reds brought him to the White Tower, and we gentled him. So can Mazrim Taim, the man in Saldaea. What if it is him? There are sisters in Saldaea already; he may be taken by now. What if we have been wrong since the start? What happens if the Dragon Reborn is gentled before the Last Battle even begins? Even prophecy can fail if the one prophesied is slain or gentled. And then we face the Dark One naked to the storm."

And Lanfear

"You do not have to. Prophecy is no more than the sign of what people hope for. Fulfilling the Prophecies will only bind you to a path leading to Tarmon Gai'don and your death. Moghedien or Sammael can destroy your body. The Great Lord of the Dark can destroy your soul. An end utter and complete. You will never be born again no matter how long the Wheel of Time turns!"

By book 6, that's also the impression Rand has gotten.

He had lived too many prophecies to believe any of them meant exactly what they said. Or even that they insured anything. In his opinion, prophecy set the conditions that had to be met for a thing to happen; only, meeting them did not mean the thing would happen, just that it could. Some of the conditions set in the Prophecies of the Dragon more than implied that he had to die for any chance at victory.

And again in ToM

"A gamble," Paitar said evenly. "Perhaps another would have risen in your stead."
"No," Rand said. "This prophecy was like the others. A declaration of what might happen, not advice."

I still find it funny that she hypocritically was trying to do that herself by encouraging him to go to war with Illian.
Despite their ignorance the prophecies have been proving to be true with and or without peoples efforts to the contrary.

Hehe, yeah. Aes Sedai very much have that, "Do as I say, not as I encourage" thing going on. It's bizarre, but realistic. I love it.

No need here it is

“I see him before you! Him, the one who lives many lives, the one who gives deaths, the one who raises mountains. He will break what he must break, but first he stands here, before our king. You will bloody him! Measure his restraint. He speaks! How was the fallen slain? Tellindal Tirraso, murdered by his hand, the darkness that came the day after the light. You must ask, and you must know your fate. If he cannot answer, then you will be lost. You will bring his end swiftly, so that the final days may have their storm. So that Light may not be consumed by he who was to have preserved it. I see him. And I weep.”

That right there is deadset evidence that it isn't pre-determined. It's conditional statements. "If X, then Y, or Z will occur."

Not, "When you ask, he will answer X."
It's, "When you ask, under response A, do X. Under response B, do Y."

They all disagreed on the interpretation of this prophecy. Rand pointed out that if they would have asked him a month earlier he would have balefired them before they could have asked. Rand goes on to tell them that this prophecy was a declaration of what might happen, not advice. For all we know the purpose of this prophecy was to motivate the borderland rulers to gather in one place for Rand bring them to Merilor.

But that's the point. That's exactly the point. She couldn't read the future definitely. She saw possible futures.

Possible future A: Rand answers correctly, and the Light has a chance at TG.
Possible future B: Rand answers incorrectly, and they kill him.

And it's a well established fact that those who Foretell have no control over it. It wasn't a lie, to convince them to move their armies. It was saying what would happen under each circumstance.

We heard the Foretelling itself. She clearly says 'if'. Whether it was advice, or just a declaration of what might happen, it's clearly not a declaration of what absolutely must happen.

Ishara
04-26-2012, 12:55 PM
Why would you assume all of a sudden that this ter-angreal would change the mechanics of the visions to possibilities instead of actual events?
...
But I don't see a reason to doubt the validity of it as a true vision of the future. Now if she would have had this vision by going through the rings again than yes we could assume that it is only a possibility.
For a couple of reasons. First, the ter'angreal had already changed, fundamentally, from what it used to do. There's no sense in assuming that it only changed in a small way - we have no way to prove that, and in fact we know that ter'angreal are unpredictable in their uses. We knew what this one used to do - we do not know what it does now. Same with the rings - we can't compare what happened with Aviendha's second trip through the pillars with her trip through the rings precisely because it's like comparing apples and oranges. We know for certain what the rings do - we have no idea what the pillars do on the second trip, or if in fact only Aviendha is capable of making the second trip.

Second, the future is not immutable - this has been described by use of quotes several times. It's simply dependent on too many independent factors for it to be predictable. For example, Aviendha's vision implies that Rand wins the Last Battle - but we don't know that for certain will occur. In fact, we have distinct doubts. Another: the visions imply that Mat and Tuon are either dead or at least retired, when we know that there were stories planned for their adventures reclaiming the Empire across the Aryth. They both can't be true.


Rhuarc told Rand that once they reach the step of the sharing of water, they all see the same thing. The glass columns follow a linear path that vary only with the first few ancestors. They are different from the 3 rings that the apprentices go through and the accepted test rings. Those show multiple possibilities.
First, here's the actual quote:
TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 34 - He Who Comes With the Dawn

"Change," Rhuarc said. "You know he brings change, Amys. It is wondering what change, and how, that makes us like children alone in the dark. Since it must be, let it begin now. No two clan chiefs I have spoken with have seen through the exactly same eyes, Rand, or exactly the same things, until the sharing of water, and the meeting where the Agreement of Rhuidean was made. Whether it is the same for Wise Ones, I do not know, but I suspect it is. I think it is a matter of bloodlines. I believe I saw through the eyes of my ancestors, and you yours."
So, that's not quite how you've interpreted it. Rhuarc is saying that the seminal moments of what forged the Aiel - the sharing of the water, and the Agreement of Rhuidean are things that ALL the ancestors of the clan chiefs shared from their own perspectives. In fact, they had to - if they didn't have that in their pasts, they wouldn't have had descendents. What he's NOT saying is that following those two events everyone sees the same thing. In fact, the second part I bolded says just the opposite. What a person sees going through the pillars is entirely dependent on their bloodline.

So yes, they follow a linear path - in the past, with events that have already occurred and cannot be changed. There is no time travel in WoT. The future simply cannot be predicted with any certainty for an entire people. Small events in the lives of individuals, certainly - the examples of Min's viewings are a perfect example of that - but not huge, population-wide predictions.


No that's not what I was saying. I said they built a ter-angreal that showed a linear timeline, not multiple possibilities. The only one that we know of in existence. Aviendha manipulated this one. Not one of the multiple possibility ter-angreal. She was the one that changed it's function. Could it have worked this way in the AoL? Maybe, we don't know any of the variables to say.
First, we have never seen Aviendha manipulate ter'angreal before, so why assume she did this time? Her talent is specifically related to determining the function of a ter-angreal, not manipulation or creation of them. We don't know that she was the one who changed its function.

Second, we don't know (and in fact very recently got a RAFO from Maria when we asked this) whether is is just Aviendha who can go through the pillars, or if the another apprentice would have seen similar visions of the future if they had gone back through the pillars. All we do know is that the Wise Ones Dreamed that Aviendha was special - not how, and not why. Maybe it was keyed just to her way back in the AoL, because it is her influence on both Rand and their children that will determine future events. Even if that's the case, she's seen the folly of excluding the Aiel from the Peace that Rand forced, as well as the Aiel pursuing war at all costs. I's extremely doubtful to me that she would push those issues with either Rand or her people now, wouldn't you agree?


They all disagreed on the interpretation of this prophecy. Rand pointed out that if they would have asked him a month earlier he would have balefired them before they could have asked. Rand goes on to tell them that this prophecy was a declaration of what might happen, not advice. For all we know the purpose of this prophecy was to motivate the borderland rulers to gather in one place for Rand bring them to Merilor.

Rand was right. Prophecies are always a declaration of what might happen - if all the stars align as they should. There are no definites in WoT. IF Rand hadn't chosen the Light on Dragon Mount, IF he hadn't answered correctly, if...the bottom line was mentioned above in a quote: IF Rand had been gentled or turned to the Dark at any point in time before now, all of those other prophecies, Light and Dark, would be moot now. The future is not guaranteed.

neurotopia
04-26-2012, 11:12 PM
Does it even have anything to do with Avi? Perhaps lifting of the fog from Rhuidean is somehow linked to the function of the columns, allowing the "veil to be lifted" from their ability to predict a probable future.

To my recollection she's the first to go through them after Asmo and Rand trashed the place. What we've been assigning as her effects on the ter'angrael could just be coincidence.

Flinn Sedai
04-26-2012, 11:14 PM
Does it even have anything to do with Avi? Perhaps lifting of the fog from Rhuidean is somehow linked to the function of the columns, allowing the "veil to be lifted" from their ability to predict a probable future.

To my recollection she's the first to go through them after Asmo and Rand trashed the place. What we've been assigning as her effects on the ter'angrael could just be coincidence.

That's a good point. Asmodean and Rand threw metric crap tons of Saidin all over Rhuidean. It's very possible that in that fight, they set something off.

Hadn't considered that.

Ishara
04-27-2012, 03:29 PM
And she *was* the first to go though them since Rhuidean changed. On purpose, perhaps? I really feel like the Wise One Dreamers know more than they're saying...

clarett
04-29-2012, 08:56 AM
On a side note, if SL evil is the polar opposite to the Dark One like Saidin and Saidar. Male and Female... Does that make the Dark One a girl :D:D:D:eek:

I've often thought that this would be the way the DO would catch Rand off guard. By manifesting himself as a woman the DO could certainly gain an advantage. His unwillingness to blatantly hurt women has been played up a lot in the series. So it seems only natural that the DO would use this against him at TLB. And you can argue that he's gotten over that by his Graendal murder. But that was also crazy, hard, Rand. New, reborn Rand, has Sympathy for Lanfear as seen in TOM Epilogue.

GonzoTheGreat
04-29-2012, 09:54 AM
All right, then, what does the DO look like?
Is it gonna be some kind of Lady Gaga clone, or will he opt for the Ilyena look?

clarett
04-29-2012, 10:02 AM
All right, then, what does the DO look like?
Is it gonna be some kind of Lady Gaga clone, or will he opt for the Ilyena look?

Lady Gaga obviously because the DO always goes for the scariest scenario possible.

Flinn Sedai
04-29-2012, 11:05 AM
Lady Gaga obviously because the DO always goes for the scariest scenario possible.

Scariest scenario? Scary spice.

*shudders*

Weird Harold
04-30-2012, 03:03 AM
What we've been assigning as her effects on the ter'angrael could just be coincidence.

The ter'angreal worked normally for Aviendha's first pass. She comments on it being more boring than shocking because she already knew what it would show. (OWTTE)

GonzoTheGreat
04-30-2012, 03:52 AM
It may be that the thing always worked in this way, but that until now, whenever someone went through it twice, that person did not survive the experience.
The first time was already traumatic (until Rand prepared them for it), and the second time would be even worse.

So we can not even be sure that anything has changed with the ter'angreal itself.

Aulis Vaara
04-30-2012, 08:36 AM
Perhaps it has something to do with Rand going through? Afterall, he is the only person to every get two dragon marks, rather than one...

Was it ever explained why that happened? Or is it just plot convenience?

GonzoTheGreat
04-30-2012, 12:26 PM
It happened because that's how it was set up by the AS who swindled the Aiel into letting themselves be ruled by whoever happened to get two instead of one marks. Of course, they did avoid the biggest pitfall one can encounter: "Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony." Obviously, strange women long dead in uninhabited towns are a far better basis for a system of government.

Weird Harold
04-30-2012, 01:34 PM
Perhaps it has something to do with Rand going through? Afterall, he is the only person to every get two dragon marks, rather than one...

Was it ever explained why that happened? Or is it just plot convenience?
The Columns didn't change function until AFTER Aviendha went through the first time. It's unlikely that Rand's testing is what changed the ter'angreal.

Rand got two dragon tattoos because he passed whatever test the ter'angreal made for the car'a'carn -- probably his mixed ancestry since the Pattern went to so much trouble to arrange his parentage.

frenchie
04-30-2012, 01:36 PM
What's good about Rand's genetics is that he has Aiel blood from both of his parents.

maleshub
04-30-2012, 01:43 PM
What's good about Rand's genetics is that he has Aiel blood from both of his parents.

How is Tigraine's blood Aiel?

frenchie
04-30-2012, 01:45 PM
The Andoran Royal line is descended from Rhea.

maleshub
04-30-2012, 01:50 PM
The Andoran Royal line is descended from Rhea.

Thanks for the insight. Where can I read more on this? Do you have any reference for me?

frenchie
04-30-2012, 01:59 PM
Interview: Apr 23rd, 2010
JordanCon 2010 Q&A Report - Terez (Paraphrased)
Terez
When I was in line, I asked Brandon and Harriet (mostly Harriet, since she was signing my books) if the Andoran royal line is descended from Rand's Aiel line (see this post).
Harriet McDougal Rigney
I got a lovely smile from Harriet that told me she was pleased that someone had finally figured that out, and she said that she believes I am exactly right about that. She was a little sketchy on the details, though, and so was Brandon, so Brandon said it was essentially a MAFO. So I talked to Maria after that session, and she was taking a break so I didn't want to ask her about it just then, so I asked her if I could message her about it, and the other MAFO we got today, and she said yes, so I will hopefully be hearing more about that soon. Brandon asked me not to put that one in the interview database until I hear from Maria about it.
Footnote
I never did get an answer from Maria, so I'm putting this bit in anyway.

frenchie
04-30-2012, 02:00 PM
And thank Terez, not me. She's the one who asked.

Weird Harold
04-30-2012, 02:04 PM
What's good about Rand's genetics is that he has Aiel blood from both of his parents.

That would make him NOT-Unique among clan chiefs. What makes Rand unique among clan chiefs is that he is NOT pure-bred Aeil. Tigraine's inheritance from Rhea was probably as dilute as "inheritance" can be

Of course, descent from Rhea might be the marker the ter'angreal looked for to mark the Car'a'carn.


Maleshub, start here: http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/hist/rhea2.html

frenchie
04-30-2012, 02:08 PM
Oh, all I was trying to point of was that unknowingly to even himself is that he is part Aiel on both sides. Barthanes even comments on the Andoran Royal line looking almost Aiel, and then Rand of course says he is not Aiel, and not of the Royal line either.

maleshub
04-30-2012, 03:42 PM
Thanks, Frenchie and Terez, for that. It is definitely an eye-opener; and would alter the view of quite a few things in the books. Nice!