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greatwolf
04-07-2012, 03:03 PM
Who made the male adam for semirhage? Initially I thought she must have gotten them from suroth, but there're two problems with this that I can see. First, semirhage only revealed herself to suroth in KoD. After Bashere had already set a meeting with Suroth iirc.

Second, who made it for Suroth? The seanchan have damane who make adam, but are they in RL or on the other side of the ocean? The talent for making terangreal is a rare one, and I had the impression that valuable damane are sent to the mainland as they wanted to send Egwene for her ability to locate ores.

As to the first issue, semirhage could have been working with suroth as anath, but would Suroth have handed over amle adam to anath while Tuon was missing?

If the seanchan keep the damane who make the adam on this side of the ocean, then Rand and the AS would do better to target them than going to war directly with Tuon. That's possible with gateways.

Seeker
04-07-2012, 08:05 PM
Moridin was in on the plan. Perhaps he had more than one Domination Band in his possession. They were a Breaking Era creation, after all. I find it unlikely that damane would have been tasked with copying the Domination Band because that would require the supervision of a sul'dam and sul'dam ask questions.

"What sort of a'dam is that? Why does it have two bracelets?"

Can any of the Forsaken copy ter'angreal? That seems like something Aginor might have been capable of. (Yes, I know, he's a biologist but he also says "I doubt even I would be able to devise a method to remove the Great Lord's shadow from saidin," which seems to imply he has other skills as well.) So, maybe Osan'gar made a few copies before they even had a plan to capture Rand, figuring that they'd be useful sooner or later.

Failing that, maybe Semirhage did it herself.

Weird Harold
04-08-2012, 01:23 AM
Moridin was in on the plan. Perhaps he had more than one Domination Band in his possession. They were a Breaking Era creation, after all.

If Moridin (or anyone else involved with the plan) already had multiple copies, there wouldn't have been the extraordinary effort made to acquire the original.

I find it unlikely that damane would have been tasked with copying the Domination Band because that would require the supervision of a sul'dam and sul'dam ask questions.

DF Sul'dam don't ask questions of Chosen, or higher ranking DFs, and Damane don't ask questions that anyone care about.

IIRC, there is an interview quote stating that the copies were made by damane, but I'm not positive about that.

greatwolf
04-08-2012, 02:06 AM
If Moridin (or anyone else involved with the plan) already had multiple copies, there wouldn't have been the extraordinary effort made to acquire the original.



DF Sul'dam don't ask questions of Chosen, or higher ranking DFs, and Damane don't ask questions that anyone care about.

IIRC, there is an interview quote stating that the copies were made by damane, but I'm not positive about that.

Thanks, WH. I did find this among others though the question is still there.

QUESTION
Do the Seanchan know how to make cuendillar?
BRANDON SANDERSON
You're trying to figure out if the collar Semirhage put on Rand is cuendillar. (this was a long convo so I can't remember all of it... I THINK he said the original had been made of cuendillar, and that the Seanchan had copies of it, but would not answer whether those were made of cuendillar as well. He wouldn't say if Rand was wearing a copy or the original, he said it didn't matter. And that he knew of at least two ways to destroy cuendillar—The True Power and one other way. He looked thoughtful when Muirenn mentioned the theory that women make white cuendillar and men make black cuendillar, but wouldn't confirm or deny.)

If the seanchan made copies that weren't cuendillar, is that why Rand was able to use the TP? The female adam can be defeated. Egwene channeled while on a leash with enough effort. Maybe this flaw is greater when accessing the TP? Or is it blocked if the adam is made of cuendillar?

But to the question, if the damane made the male adam(eve), who gave it to semirhage/anath? A Df suldam? Compulsion? In RL or on seanchan? Or Moridin?

Its easier to take out a few damane who can make terangreal than to fight an empire of thousands of damane. Note that the seanchan should have about 8x more sparkers than RL, and can add to this number anyone collared in RL-learner, sparker or male!

Neutralizing the adam limits the seanchan to what they already have. And with a many sided civil war there, removing those making the adam there will have even greater benefits. Find the location of the makers/factory in TAR, get there by gateway while they're asleep and remove suldam and damane both to a convenient location.

So if the seanchan made the male copies, then I was probably right that they're planning a strike against the BT! But how many do they have? We know that they probably have the adam manufactory in a secure location as of KoD, so getting in or out wouldn't be easy and would quickly come to the attention of Suroth or Galgan.

Unless compulsion was used, which might change the behavior of some staff to the extent that its noticed. And suroth gave no indication that anything like this had happened as per KoD prologue - no missing adam, no weird behavior.

The whole question arises because suroth seemed to be left out of semirhage's plans concerning Tuon-she was ignorant of who was impersonating Tuon! And Anath has very little authority while Tuon is missing. So what gives? I'm sure I missed something there.

Weird Harold
04-08-2012, 06:04 AM
But to the question, if the damane made the male adam(eve), who gave it to semirhage/anath? A Df suldam? Compulsion? In RL or on seanchan? Or Moridin?

As far as we know, all of the a'dam makers are back on Seanchan. The original Sad Bracelets was last seen in Suroth's possession before the copies were found in Semirhage's possession.

WH,Ch21 - Bayle Domon and Egeanin take the sad bracelets to Cantorin, but they are boarded by another Seanchan ship. Egeanin gives the sad bracelets to Suroth. (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/sad_bracelets.html)

Since Suroth is in Randland, and the a'dam makers are in Seanchan, it seems obvious that Suroth gave the original to Semirhage -- posssible simply posing as a higher ranking DF -- and Semirhage Traveled to Seanchan to have a DF sul'dam make the copies.

It wouldn't necessarily need a DF to duplicate the E've, just plausible orders from a plausible source; Semirhage using a Mask Of Mirrors to impersonate a messenger from the OIC of the a'dam factory or high ranking nobleman.

NB: the sul'dam accompanying Semirhage to capture Rand were not Dfs, and were under the impression they were accompanying Tuon.

greatwolf
04-08-2012, 07:54 AM
As far as we know, all of the a'dam makers are back on Seanchan. The original Sad Bracelets was last seen in Suroth's possession before the copies were found in Semirhage's possession.



Since Suroth is in Randland, and the a'dam makers are in Seanchan, it seems obvious that Suroth gave the original to Semirhage -- posssible simply posing as a higher ranking DF -- and Semirhage Traveled to Seanchan to have a DF sul'dam make the copies.

It wouldn't necessarily need a DF to duplicate the E've, just plausible orders from a plausible source; Semirhage using a Mask Of Mirrors to impersonate a messenger from the OIC of the a'dam factory or high ranking nobleman.

NB: the sul'dam accompanying Semirhage to capture Rand were not Dfs, and were under the impression they were accompanying Tuon.

If semi impersonates Tuon, how does she get the bracelets made on Seanchan? Maybe she can impersonate others but how many people have the authority for that kind of thing apart from the Empress? And I don't see why Semi would off the Empress if she was able to use compulsion on her and get what she wanted. Her major reason for wanting them out of the way and Suroth in place was to get "better cooperation" after all.

But I don't see Suroth giving the bracelets to Anath. Even if higher ranking, it represents a risk that Suroth will likely find unacceptable unless its from the forsaken. She could always plead her duties with Moridin to anyone else.

Of course, it would mean the end to her own schemes for Rand. But the original negotiations for the truce parley was held between Bashere and Suroth. So she ought to have known about it. An emissary from the DR at the tarasin palace would be known to her in short order. She might be able to keep it from Galgan, but Anath couldn't have kept it from either.

Semi could impersonate Tuon to do this, but the whole palace knew she was MIA(?) impersonating her at the palace would have been too big a risk. I think a need a simple answer somewhere.

Enigma
04-08-2012, 11:06 AM
We know from Suorth that very few sul'dam are actually darkfriends. Saying that it would make sense that some of the damane who can make adam would be sent with the Return. We know that the Return landed and got the lay of the land before being beaten back. Then they were reinforced by the Return and invastion round 2 began.

We also know that while most of the forerunners did not return to Seanchan after Rand and the Heroes of the Horn beat them back but some did. We know this from Rand & Aviendha's side trip to Seanchan.

Would it not make sense for at least some of the damane who can make more adam be sent with the return given the rich hunting ground Randland is shown to be. There would be might demand for adam and the Seanchan are nothing if not good at planning.

Now there may not be too many sul'dam who are darkfriends but given the way Seanchan society are organised is any sul'dam really going to question orders they are given from the High Blood? All it would take is Semirhage to impersinate a member of the High Blood or simply order a darkfriend High Blood to give the orders and even if the sul'dam have questions about this strange new adam that could work on men if they are told to keep quite for the good of the empire they will likely obey.

Personally I don't see any major problem for Semirhage to work through Suroth. The adam only works on men so its no threat to Semirhage. Semirhage seems to have been assigned the Seanchan project so while its not impossible for other forsaken to interfear it does seem less likely.

Moridin could interfear but was he not part of the plan? From his comments to Graendal, Demandred & co he seems pissed that Semirhage firstly failed to capture Rand and secondly injured him and thirdly got caught herself. He does not seem upset that she tried only that she failed.

Weird Harold
04-08-2012, 03:31 PM
But I don't see Suroth giving the bracelets to Anath. Even if higher ranking, it represents a risk that Suroth will likely find unacceptable unless its from the forsaken. She could always plead her duties with Moridin to anyone else.

Failing to follow the orders of a higher ranking DF is hazardous to one's health.

You sound as if you think that assuming a disguise -- such as Anath, Tuon, or some random high blood -- is a long drawn-out process that can't be reversed or changed. You also sound like you believe that only the Empress appearing in person is sufficient to order copies to be made.

Neither is the case:

1) With Mask of mirrors and Traveling, any channeler can impersonate a courier in Seanchan, A Truth Reader in the Palace, and a wayward princess extorting "gifts" within a few minutes of each other. The only limiting factor would be finding privacy to make the changes.

2) A forged document with the Empress' -- or some other High Blood's -- seal would be sufficient to get copies made. Semirhage wouldn't even need to deliver the order and original E've or compel someone to force them to deliver them. Semirhage could just drop an anonymous package at the Seanchan equivalent of UPS for delivery to the A'dam factory and as long as the document held up to scrutiny, the copies would be made and shipped regardless of the alignment of anyone involved.

If there are a'dam makers with the Return, then Suroth has sufficient authority to command them (as long as Tuon is officially "under the veil.) Anath has sufficient standing to deliver an order "from" either Suroth or Tuon and have it accepted without question.

One additional point: Suroth obtained the E've in Winter's Heart and Tuon didn't even arrive, let alone disappear, until later. The copies were already under construction by the time Tuon's disappearance would have presented a problem.

suttree
04-08-2012, 07:44 PM
If the seanchan made copies that weren't cuendillar, is that why Rand was able to use the TP?


The quote above says it doesn't matter...

As for Egwene not sure we can call what she did a loophole or flaw.