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View Full Version : Can Elayne's foxhead copies block saidin?


Seeker
04-07-2012, 09:10 PM
The title says it all.

But let me explain my reasoning.

We know that Mat's original medallion can block both sides of the power since it went cold when Aran'gar channeled at him, but... It seems to me that a ter'angreal that could block both saidin and saidar would need to be crafted with both saidin and saidar. There's no textual evidence to support that, of course, but it just FEELS correct.

So, given that Elayne made the copies on her own, using only saidar, does that mean that they are only effective against weaves of saidar and useless against male channeling?

Weird Harold
04-08-2012, 02:15 AM
It seems to me that a ter'angreal that could block both saidin and saidar would need to be crafted with both saidin and saidar. There's no textual evidence to support that, of course, but it just FEELS correct.

It seems more likely to me that if Saidin was required to fully duplicate Mat's medalion, Elayne wouldn't be able to make a functional copy at all -- even flawed copies that aren't as good as the original.

Zombie Sammael
04-08-2012, 09:38 AM
It seems more likely to me that if Saidin was required to fully duplicate Mat's medalion, Elayne wouldn't be able to make a functional copy at all -- even flawed copies that aren't as good as the original.

It seems just as likely that if Saidin was used to make her copies, she'd actually be able to make a fully functional copy, and is presently unable to because of the lack of the male component.

greatwolf
04-08-2012, 10:59 AM
It seems more likely to me that if Saidin was required to fully duplicate Mat's medalion, Elayne wouldn't be able to make a functional copy at all -- even flawed copies that aren't as good as the original.

IIRC, the copies hurt the gholam. Since it was made by Aginor likely using saidin (he might have used TP) that could be the evidence for effectiveness against saidin. Or not.

Of course that would have presented problems during the breaking. You want a terangreal to protect you from male channelers only you need a male to make one. Goody!

fionwe1987
04-08-2012, 11:13 AM
Since Lanfear doesn't recognize this type of ter'angreal, it was clearly a Breaking-era creation. Which makes it unlikely that it requires Saidin to make.

Zombie Sammael
04-08-2012, 11:22 AM
Since Lanfear doesn't recognize this type of ter'angreal, it was clearly a Breaking-era creation. Which makes it unlikely that it requires Saidin to make.

On the other hand, it would be sensible to make a ter'angreal that blocks Saidin during the Breaking, even if you had to use (tainted) Saidin to make it. If that is the case, it indicates the taint may have no lasting effect on Saidin-made objects of the Power.

Seeker
04-08-2012, 11:34 AM
Whoa, Whoa. Hold on a sec.

Lanfear failed to recognize ALIVIA's ter'angreal, which is not necessarily the same as Mat's.

Also - to Weird Harold - I see no reason to assume the process is all or nothing (either you make a fully functioning duplicate or the process fails entirely) because Elayne's copies do work to a limited degree.

To Zombie Sammael.

I don't think the authors intend to allow fully-functional duplicates of the original medalluon to fall intot he hands of anyone other than Mat. Why? Because the original medallion allows you to channel while holding it, which would make fight scenes far too one-sided. If you're immune to the power, you shouldn't be able to channel it either.

So, that being the case, copies that are crafted of both saidin and saidar would probably work better than Elayne's but still have the drawback of not allowing the user to channel while holding them. I think that's a built-in flaw that RJ and Brandon do not want our characters to get around.

To Greatwolf.

I don't think gholam have actual threads of saidin laced throughout their bodies. Or the True Power for that matter.

And finally.

I suppose it depends on exactly what the medallion does but I tend to think that to block both sides of the Power, it needs both sides of the Power.

GonzoTheGreat
04-08-2012, 11:53 AM
If a sul'dam had one of Elayne's copies, would she be able to control a male channeler who was wearing an E've?

Enigma
04-08-2012, 11:55 AM
I suppose it depends on exactly what the medallion does but I tend to think that to block both sides of the Power, it needs both sides of the Power.

Does that mean that when Lanfear was shielding Rand in Tear she was using saidin? Things are a lot more effective if they use both sides of the OP but when Egwene first found Callandor in TER she studied the ward and could detect gaps in the weave that she figured out were made from saidin. These gaps still blocked her probe of saidir.

As for Lanfear not recognising it, I thought that a paris net had a ter'angreal that duplicated the effect to a certain extent. We know from Rand that LTT wore the first male paris net which presumably was something made during the war of power. If that was the case both sides of the power might have been used.

We know that Elaine's versions are not as effective as Mat's. Perhaps Mat's was made using both sides of the power and by using only saidir Elayne's versions are not quite as good. Either way I don't think we have enought evidence to say for certain.

Seeker
04-08-2012, 01:39 PM
Does that mean that when Lanfear was shielding Rand in Tear she was using saidin?

Why would it?


Things are a lot more effective if they use both sides of the OP but when Egwene first found Callandor in TER she studied the ward and could detect gaps in the weave that she figured out were made from saidin. These gaps still blocked her probe of saidar.

Yes.... But that's not quite the same thing. We're talking about a ter'angreal that causes flows to melt, thus making them ineffective.

When Egwene probed the "gaps" in the weave around Callandor, what she felt was analogous to coming up against a brick wall. Something was IMPEDING her flows but not melting them.

As for Lanfear not recognising it, I thought that a paris net had a ter'angreal that duplicated the effect to a certain extent. We know from Rand that LTT wore the first male paris net which presumably was something made during the war of power. If that was the case both sides of the power might have been used.

The term is Paralis Net.

Rand also points out that Casuane's Net has several ornaments he doesn't recognize and, for that reason, he concludes it's a Breaking Era creation. The web-breaker (if indeed that is what Cadsuane HAS) could be one of those.

Enigma
04-08-2012, 01:55 PM
The point I was trying to make is that it is possible to effect saidin with saidir and visa versa. So a ter'angreal made from one might block/melt or otherwise effect flows from the other side of the one power, all be it imperfectly.

Seeker
04-08-2012, 02:14 PM
The point I was trying to make is that it is possible to effect saidin with saidir and visa versa. So a ter'angreal made from one might block/melt or otherwise effect flows from the other side of the one power, all be it imperfectly.

Oh, of course, absolutely. We've seen Rand slash women's flows multiple times and Lanfear has slashed his. But that's not what I meant. From the descriptions I've read (flows melting), I always got the impression that Mat's medallion sucked energy out of a weave and returned it to the True Source. It didn't slash the flows so much as it stole their power. Now, this is only interpretation, of course, but that's what I get from the description.

So... to steal power from a weave of saidin, the medallion has to be able to respond to saidin. And the one power is supposed to be a technology, not a form of magic, which means that the medallion has to be able to recognize saidin when it comes into contact with saidin. So, how are you going to use a weave of saidar to make it recognize saidin?

Flows of the power are, in my opinion, instructions that determine how energy from the True Source will be applied to the physical world. Therefore, the instructions that Elayne has imbedded into the medallions must be something along the lines of "When you come into contact with this substance (flows of saidar/saidin), disperse it. Melt the flows."

But the tricky part is the "When you come into contact with this substance." The medallion needs a basis for comparison to know when it's coming into contact with flows of the power. It has a basis for comparison with saidar via the weave that Elayne used to turn it into a ter'angreal. But how does it detect saidin?

Zombie Sammael
04-08-2012, 02:42 PM
Oh, of course, absolutely. We've seen Rand slash women's flows multiple times and Lanfear has slashed his. But that's not what I meant. From the descriptions I've read (flows melting), I always got the impression that Mat's medallion sucked energy out of a weave and returned it to the True Source. It didn't slash the flows so much as it stole their power. Now, this is only interpretation, of course, but that's what I get from the description.

So... to steal power from a weave of saidin, the medallion has to be able to respond to saidin. And the one power is supposed to be a technology, not a form of magic, which means that the medallion has to be able to recognize saidin when it comes into contact with saidin. So, how are you going to use a weave of saidar to make it recognize saidin?

Flows of the power are, in my opinion, instructions that determine how energy from the True Source will be applied to the physical world. Therefore, the instructions that Elayne has imbedded into the medallions must be something along the lines of "When you come into contact with this substance (flows of saidar/saidin), disperse it. Melt the flows."

But the tricky part is the "When you come into contact with this substance." The medallion needs a basis for comparison to know when it's coming into contact with flows of the power. It has a basis for comparison with saidar via the weave that Elayne used to turn it into a ter'angreal. But how does it detect saidin?

Possibly it is able to detect "The One Power" generally rather than the particular half of the source? It might be that making it so it picks up one half of the source is actually a further refinement rather than a cruder application. RJ made it easy for us to forget it's all one thing, really, but it is stated to be so.

Seeker
04-08-2012, 03:31 PM
Possibly it is able to detect "The One Power" generally rather than the particular half of the source? It might be that making it so it picks up one half of the source is actually a further refinement rather than a cruder application. RJ made it easy for us to forget it's all one thing, really, but it is stated to be so.

Mmm... I don't think so. Because it's not all one thing. Saidin and saidar are two different magic systems. They're very similar but they are distinct because there is no overlap. Because saidar and saidin can't mix, we can think of them as two different substances (or two different energy fields if you prefer). But the rules for saidin are different than the rules for saidar.

If you channel saidin, you can extinguish a flame by drawing heat out of it. If you channel saidar, that same action will kill you.

If you channel saidar, you'll be able to make a bridge of air much larger than a saidin-channeler even if he or she (Aran'gar) is stronger than you.

But the point is there's no overlap. Men have no native method for detecting woven saidar and women have no native method for detecting woven saidin. Sure there are weaves to make up the difference (like whatever Nacelle did) but I really doubt that one of those weaves was included in the foxhead copies. And why? Because the copies are attempts to duplicate whatever made the original medallion work. The original medallion would have no weave for detecting the opposite side of the Power because - so far as we know - that weave did not exist until Nacelle discovered it. The original medallion would detect both sides of the power by virtue of the fact that it was CRAFTED with both sides of the power. Elayne's copies were only crafted with saidar and she makes no mention of "tweaking" them in any way to improve upon the design.

Zombie Sammael
04-08-2012, 03:49 PM
Mmm... I don't think so. Because it's not all one thing. Saidin and saidar are two different magic systems. They're very similar but they are distinct because there is no overlap. Because saidar and saidin can't mix, we can think of them as two different substances (or two different energy fields if you prefer). But the rules for saidin are different than the rules for saidar.

If you channel saidin, you can extinguish a flame by drawing heat out of it. If you channel saidar, that same action will kill you.

If you channel saidar, you'll be able to make a bridge of air much larger than a saidin-channeler even if he or she (Aran'gar) is stronger than you.

But the point is there's no overlap. Men have no native method for detecting woven saidar and women have no native method for detecting woven saidin. Sure there are weaves to make up the difference (like whatever Nacelle did) but I really doubt that one of those weaves was included in the foxhead copies. And why? Because the copies are attempts to duplicate whatever made the original medallion work. The original medallion would have no weave for detecting the opposite side of the Power because - so far as we know - that weave did not exist until Nacelle discovered it. The original medallion would detect both sides of the power by virtue of the fact that it was CRAFTED with both sides of the power. Elayne's copies were only crafted with saidar and she makes no mention of "tweaking" them in any way to improve upon the design.

I can see that side of the argument, but there is also another. It is the case that men are capable of channeling saidar and women saidin, via linking. In addition, an interesting discussion of the topic of travelling I read once pointed out that the methods used to create the effect are different only in point of view, not methodology, by way of contrast with the True Power. Consider, the True Power creates a gateway by tearing a hole in the pattern; that is its nature, as it is the Dark One's nature to destroy the pattern.

Many people think that Saidin works in a similar fashion when creating a gateway, but when you think about it, this cannot be the case. Saidin is part of the pattern, an effect (and cause) of the Wheel's turning. How can it damage the pattern? In addition, if Saidar does not tear a whole in the pattern, how is one able to travel using it? A gateway is literally a whole in the air. What is actually happening is that the two halves of the power are literally doing the same thing, but viewed from a different point of view. In order to travel from one place to another, it's necessary to bring two points within the pattern together and to poke a hole between them. It's simply that the male half focuses on the poking of the hole - more like slipping between two threads pulled away from one another than an actual destructive tearing - and the female focuses on the bringing of points together (through creation of a similarity).

It's possible, even likely, that all the other "differences" are actually point of view differences. In the case of the flame, Saidin focuses on removing the flame, and air or whatever else then rushes in to fill the void; Saidar simply focuses on what you're putting in to replace the flame in the first instance. So they aren't really two different magic systems, but rather two entirely different methods of using the same magic system.

I would suggest that, were this not the case, acts such as linking would be impossible, even dangerous; attempting to link with someone using the TP might demonstrate this. If they were entirely separate, they would not work so well in harmony with one another; much, much better than they do separately. If they were entirely separate, the creation of *angreal that use both halves would not be possible, and yet it is.

Seeker
04-08-2012, 04:12 PM
I can see that side of the argument, but there is also another. It is the case that men are capable of channeling saidar and women saidin, via linking. In addition, an interesting discussion of the topic of travelling I read once pointed out that the methods used to create the effect are different only in point of view, not methodology, by way of contrast with the True Power. Consider, the True Power creates a gateway by tearing a hole in the pattern; that is its nature, as it is the Dark One's nature to destroy the pattern.

Many people think that Saidin works in a similar fashion when creating a gateway, but when you think about it, this cannot be the case. Saidin is part of the pattern, an effect (and cause) of the Wheel's turning. How can it damage the pattern? In addition, if Saidar does not tear a whole in the pattern, how is one able to travel using it? A gateway is literally a whole in the air. What is actually happening is that the two halves of the power are literally doing the same thing, but viewed from a different point of view. In order to travel from one place to another, it's necessary to bring two points within the pattern together and to poke a hole between them. It's simply that the male half focuses on the poking of the hole - more like slipping between two threads pulled away from one another than an actual destructive tearing - and the female focuses on the bringing of points together (through creation of a similarity).

It's possible, even likely, that all the other "differences" are actually point of view differences. In the case of the flame, Saidin focuses on removing the flame, and air or whatever else then rushes in to fill the void; Saidar simply focuses on what you're putting in to replace the flame in the first instance. So they aren't really two different magic systems, but rather two entirely different methods of using the same magic system.

I would suggest that, were this not the case, acts such as linking would be impossible, even dangerous; attempting to link with someone using the TP might demonstrate this. If they were entirely separate, they would not work so well in harmony with one another; much, much better than they do separately. If they were entirely separate, the creation of *angreal that use both halves would not be possible, and yet it is.

Okay, this is a case of RJ not really being as clear as he could be. When Rand folds the pattern and bores a hole, what he is talking about is an Einstein-Rosen Bridge (or "wormhole"). An Einstein-Rosen Bridge folds spacetime so that two separate points are touching, then creates a tunnel.

When Egwene makes two places in the pattern the same, what she is doing is called Quantum Entanglement. Quantum Entanglement is not the same as an Einstein-Rosen Bridge but it has the same effect. When two places in spacetime are Quantum-Entangled, they become - for all intents and purposes - the SAME point in space. So one can literally step from one to the other. But there is a difference between an Einstein-Rosen Bridge and Quantum Entanglement.

These are REAL principles in theorhetical physics. Actual scientists talk about these concepts and RJ was a genius for including them both in his work, especially since - at the moment - there is no way to reconcile General Relativity (which allows for Einstein-Rosen Bridges) and Quantum Mechanics (which allowes for Quantum Entanglement).

Now, as for the True Power... I'm not sure what that is. Yes it's "ripping a hole in the pattern" but the difference between the True Power method and the saidin method seems to be that the saidin methon (Einstein-Rosen Bridge) folds the pattern so that two far off points are touching, then drills a temporary hole between them. The hole passes THROUGH the pattern, so that the traveler is never outside the pattern. But the True Power creates a tunnel through some "outer" space OUTSIDE the pattern, requiring one to first LEAVE the patten, then re-enter it. And that is why TP traveling SCARS the pattern.

But the difference between saidin and saidar traveling is more than just a difference of perception.

Similarly, when a man snuffs out a flame by drawing the heat away, he's literally manipulating heat energy. A woman, on the other hand, actualy manipulates air molecules and moisture to douse the flame. The effect is the same but the differences between the two methods is more than a matter of perspective.

Zombie Sammael
04-08-2012, 04:40 PM
Okay, this is a case of RJ not really being as clear as he could be. When Rand folds the pattern and bores a hole, what he is talking about is an Einstein-Rosen Bridge (or "wormhole"). An Einstein-Rosen Bridge folds spacetime so that two separate points are touching, then creates a tunnel.

When Egwene makes two places in the pattern the same, what she is doing is called Quantum Entanglement. Quantum Entanglement is not the same as an Einstein-Rosen Bridge but it has the same effect. When two places in spacetime are Quantum-Entangled, they become - for all intents and purposes - the SAME point in space. So one can literally step from one to the other. But there is a difference between an Einstein-Rosen Bridge and Quantum Entanglement.

These are REAL principles in theorhetical physics. Actual scientists talk about these concepts and RJ was a genius for including them both in his work, especially since - at the moment - there is no way to reconcile General Relativity (which allows for Einstein-Rosen Bridges) and Quantum Mechanics (which allowes for Quantum Entanglement).

Now, as for the True Power... I'm not sure what that is. Yes it's "ripping a hole in the pattern" but the difference between the True Power method and the saidin method seems to be that the saidin methon (Einstein-Rosen Bridge) folds the pattern so that two far off points are touching, then drills a temporary hole between them. The hole passes THROUGH the pattern, so that the traveler is never outside the pattern. But the True Power creates a tunnel through some "outer" space OUTSIDE the pattern, requiring one to first LEAVE the patten, then re-enter it. And that is why TP traveling SCARS the pattern.

But the difference between saidin and saidar traveling is more than just a difference of perception.

Similarly, when a man snuffs out a flame by drawing the heat away, he's literally manipulating heat energy. A woman, on the other hand, actualy manipulates air molecules and moisture to douse the flame. The effect is the same but the differences between the two methods is more than a matter of perspective.

It's not my intention to try to call you out or trip you up, but I would like to know what canon source tells you this? I'm not saying RJ wasn't a physicist (he was) but rather I am coming at it from a perspective of gender, and the idea that in fact it's two different "cosmic POVs" suggests his view of gender was slightly more enlightened than I'd previously given him credit for. That's why I liked that way of looking at it.

Seeker
04-08-2012, 05:17 PM
It's not my intention to try to call you out or trip you up, but I would like to know what canon source tells you this? I'm not saying RJ wasn't a physicist (he was) but rather I am coming at it from a perspective of gender, and the idea that in fact it's two different "cosmic POVs" suggests his view of gender was slightly more enlightened than I'd previously given him credit for. That's why I liked that way of looking at it.

A general knowledge of physics (from lots and lots of reading and a few college level courses) helped me make the connection.

A wormhole (Einstein-Rosen bridge) is basically folding spacetime so that two distant points are touching and connecting them via a "hole" that a traveler can pass through. If you replace the word "spacetime" with "pattern," that is EXACTLY what male channelers do.

Quantum Entanglement is making two points in spacetime identical, so that what happens to one has an identical effect on the other. If you replace the word "spacetime" with "pattern" that is exactly what female channelers do.

Whether RJ included these concepts deliberately or not, I cannot say. It's possible that he just did it subconsciously, drawing on his background in physics for inspiration without consciously making the association.

But I wouldn't bet on that.

EDIT:
Sorry, I quoted myself instead of Zombie Sammael and I'm too lazy to fix it.

Zombie Sammael
04-08-2012, 05:21 PM
A general knowledge of physics (from lots and lots of reading and a few college level courses) helped me make the connection.

A wormhole (Einstein-Rosen bridge) is basically folding spacetime so that two distant points are touching and connecting them via a "hole" that a traveler can pass through. If you replace the word "spacetime" with "pattern," that is EXACTLY what male channelers do.

Quantum Entanglement is making two points in spacetime identical, so that what happens to one has an identical effect on the other. If you replace the word "spacetime" with "pattern" that is exactly what female channelers do.

Whether RJ included these concepts deliberately or not, I cannot say. It's possible that he just did it subconsciously, drawing on his background in physics for inspiration without consciously making the association.

But I wouldn't bet on that.

EDIT:
Sorry, I quoted myself instead of Zombie Sammael and I'm too lazy to fix it.

He could also have been drawing inspiration from it as two different ways of doing the same thing, rather than directly referencing it, though.

Seeker
04-08-2012, 06:23 PM
He could also have been drawing inspiration from it as two different ways of doing the same thing, rather than directly referencing it, though.

Yes, but the fact remains that the methods are different.

Recall that Moghidien told Egwene that if she were to attempt Traveling by the male method, she would not survive the attempt. And Rand says that the female method sounds incredibly dangerous to him. Saidin and saidar are different magic systems, irreconcilible. This is not so much a difference in men and women so much as it is a difference in the magic system.

Men can learn to weave saidar via a link but they have to learn its idiosynchrocies, learn what it will and will not do. I'm sure that a man can learn the female weave for a gateway and if he crafts that weave with saidar, it will work just fine. But if he tries the male weave with saidar, it will kill him even though he is male. It's not the gender of the channeler that matters, it's the side of the power.

greatwolf
04-09-2012, 01:23 PM
hmm nice to have a physicist around.

As for the paralis net(or paris net) I don't see why Lanfear wouldn't know of the effect of the web breaker. If it was used in battle, it would be reported. And semirhage was also surprised by it. Perhaps Taim as well.

Seeker
04-09-2012, 02:51 PM
hmm nice to have a physicist around.

As for the paralis net(or paris net) I don't see why Lanfear wouldn't know of the effect of the web breaker. If it was used in battle, it would be reported. And semirhage was also surprised by it. Perhaps Taim as well.

When exactly did Taim channel at Alivia?

Grig
04-09-2012, 04:34 PM
Men have no native method for detecting woven saidar

Goosebumps say otherwise.

Seeker
04-09-2012, 04:51 PM
Goosebumps say otherwise.

Detecting WOVEN saidar. The goosebumps only tell them that a woman is holding the Source. They could walk right through a weave of saidar and not know it's there.

Grig
04-09-2012, 07:14 PM
Detecting WOVEN saidar. The goosebumps only tell them that a woman is holding the Source.

Cool story. Lemme know when you find someone capable of weaving the source without touching it.

Weird Harold
04-09-2012, 08:55 PM
Cool story. Lemme know when you find someone capable of weaving the source without touching it.
Tied off weaves, like wards and traps, don 't cause goosebumps. Goosebumps also don't distinguish between embracing Saidar and actively using it -- it doesn't detect the weaves, only the channeler.

GonzoTheGreat
04-10-2012, 05:15 AM
When exactly did Taim channel at Alivia?
Taim didn't channel at Alivia, but he may have had a clash with Cadsuane.