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Terez
04-08-2012, 12:20 PM
How is Rand supposed to serve Lanfear, before or after death? Any ideas?

I'm still not entirely convinced this passage is about Rand and Lanfear anyway, partly because he's hardly a 'new lover'. He's an old one. Though I suppose since he's in a new body he might be considered 'new'...

Isabel
04-08-2012, 12:59 PM
Isn't that passage about the two options Moiraine saw at Rhuidean? One in which Rand became LTT and in the other he died?

Hereby the quote:
TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 53 - Fading Words
The other two paths were much worse. Down one, Lanfear killed you. Down the other, she carried you away, and when next we saw you, you called yourself Lews Therin Telamon and were her devoted lover.

Terez
04-08-2012, 01:08 PM
Yes, but that didn't happen, so it can't fulfill the prophecy, can it? Foretellings are supposed to be absolute, and this one has the form of a Foretelling. And RJ seemed to confirm it was a legitimate prophecy.

Zombie Sammael
04-08-2012, 01:22 PM
Not that we haven't discussed this at incendiary length before, but I firmly believe the passage is about Lanfear. The term "lover" is most often used as a euphemism for sexual partner, in the context of a relationship with a primarily physical element. In this context, LTT/The Dragon in a new body qualifies quite nicely as a new lover. Even setting that aside, at the time of the prophecy - and to an extent bear in mind it's Trolloc trash talk as much as prophecy - Rand didn't even have LTT in his head yet. As far as he was concerned, he was an entirely different person. Speculation based on Moiraine's note leads us to think that Lanfear would have found some way to bring LTT out, but she hadn't yet observed that Rand was having past life memories, and may not have done so, in that alternate future, until after she'd met Rand. So I think "new" is fair enough in this context.

Without wanting to dredge up the old discussion, I remain of the opinion that Rand is going to rush off half-cocked to rescue Cyndane in AMOL. I think this is the first manner in which he will serve her, and that it will lead directly (or less likely indirectly) to his death, thus fulfilling the first part of the prophecy. "Serve her still" might just be there to indicate he's coming back, especially if he's forced to continue protecting her after his return in order to prevent her from being executed for being one of the Forsaken, or suchlike. Some bargain might have to be struck with her at some point, and I haven't totally abandoned the idea of her being involved in his resurrection, but I don't want to get into the same flamewar over it all over again.

Thus, my best guess is that he will save her from Moridin, die (likely in the process), and then protect her from execution.

As an addendum, regarding the middle part, perhaps Rand might be captured during his rescue attempt, and either 13x13'd or subjected to some other process involving the link with Moridin, thus necessitating his death during one of the Battle of Caemlyn variations.

Zombie Sammael
04-08-2012, 01:29 PM
Yes, but that didn't happen, so it can't fulfill the prophecy, can it? Foretellings are supposed to be absolute, and this one has the form of a Foretelling. And RJ seemed to confirm it was a legitimate prophecy.

That could also have been misdirection based upon the way we all refer to it as prophecy, though. RJ didn't outright lie, but I don't think he was above sending us haring off in the wrong direction from time to time, either inside or outside of the novels.

eht slat meit
04-08-2012, 01:53 PM
The prophecy may be indeed be legitimate, does that automatically imply that it is complete and not structured in such a way as to manipulate?

Consider the source - Ishamael, or whomever he was specifically at the time. He's selective about where he drops DPs, and does it with the intent of getting people to do certain things. That verse certainly constitutes a warning - Lanfear is after Rand, intends to "kill" him and return LTT to the world as her willing slave. That's certainly not in keeping with Ishy's plans, and he knows better than anyone that prophecy can be manipulated.

It could be considered that the prophecy has already been fulfilled.
~She sought her lover (failed, but sought him).
~"Rand" is no longer Rand, but an amalgamation of Rand and LTT, and is just as "dead" as if he'd been replaced by LTT.
~She's manipulating him to save her, and if he does he's serving her. Not as a slave, but the verse doesn't say that.

It's all about interpretation. Graendal thought she had an interpretation down pat. She was wrong.

Terez
04-08-2012, 04:39 PM
to an extent bear in mind it's Trolloc trash talk as much as prophecy
No, it isn't. For one thing, it was written by a Myrddraal, not a Trolloc. For another, RJ said it was a prophecy, which he wouldn't have done if it wasn't actually a prophecy. And finally, we have no reason to believe it isn't actually a prophecy, and several indicators that it is.

But let's not turn this into an argument about that. I want to know how the line in the title is supposed to be fulfilled.

Zombie Sammael
04-08-2012, 04:42 PM
No, it isn't. For one thing, it was written by a Myrddraal, not a Trolloc. For another, RJ said it was a prophecy, which he wouldn't have done if it wasn't actually a prophecy. And finally, we have no reason to believe it isn't actually a prophecy, and several indicators that it is.

But let's not turn this into an argument about that. I want to know how the line in the title is supposed to be fulfilled.

What was the quote where he called it a prophecy? All I could find was your note where you said he called it a prophecy in passing. I think whether it's propaganda or prophecy, or prophecy used as propaganda, is a significant factor. Anyway, you have my thoughts on how it will be fulfilled.

fionwe1987
04-08-2012, 07:46 PM
For myself, I think the Daughter of the Night here is Egwene, and the new lover is Gawyn. Problem solved.

newyorkersedai
04-09-2012, 12:31 AM
With this involving lanfear's rescue. Is it possible that she will offer the Light some way to help reseal the Bore? It would likely be a method intended to fail...

Isabel
04-09-2012, 12:36 AM
If you look at below quote than it's hard to qualify it as something that has to happen. Part of the things have already happened and in the text is refered to two different paths. (like in some dreams).
As we all know, in the end there were more paths. So the prophecy has proven it's not infallable.
The first part about who shall serve her and die, yet serve still, probably refers to one of the two paths.


"Daughter of the Night, she walks again.
The ancient war, she yet fights.
Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die,
yet serve still.
Who shall stand against her coming?
The Shining Walls shall kneel.
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.
The man who channels stands alone.
He gives his friends for sacrifice.
Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying,
one to life eternal.
Which will he choose? Which will he choose?
What hand shelters? What hand slays?
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.
Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.
Isam waited in the high passes.
The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now
course, and kill.
One did live, and one did die, but both are.
The Time of Change has come.
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.
The Watchers wait on Toman's Head.
The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.
Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great
Lord comes.
Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great
Lord comes.
Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great
Lord comes.
Now the Great Lord comes.
Now the Great Lord comes.
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.
Now the Great Lord comes."

Terez
04-09-2012, 10:40 AM
Well, it's hard for me to connect the Lanfear bit to his two paths. It's stated as something that will happen, not as a choice. Not that I would be incredibly surprised if it didn't happen; I'm just mainly looking for ideas about how it will happen if it does.

Zombie Sammael
04-09-2012, 10:43 AM
For myself, I think the Daughter of the Night here is Egwene, and the new lover is Gawyn. Problem solved.

As I've pointed out, that doesn't fit. "Daughter of the Night" is the literal translation of "Lanfear", and this is a Dark Prophecy.

Isabel
04-09-2012, 01:24 PM
Well, it's hard for me to connect the Lanfear bit to his two paths. It's stated as something that will happen, not as a choice. Not that I would be incredibly surprised if it didn't happen; I'm just mainly looking for ideas about how it will happen if it does.

Well it could mean that the DO would grap Rands soul as Ishamael keeps saying in TGH. That way he would die yet serve still.

Or it would mean that he would become LTT and in that sense die, yet serve still.

I don't really see another option.

Tomp
04-10-2012, 06:11 PM
How is Rand supposed to serve Lanfear, before or after death? Any ideas?



It seems we all asume that Lanfear (Cyndane) will serve the DO.

I think there may be a chance that she will help to seal the Bore. It would make thematic sense, since she drilled the bore in AoL (a redemption story arc).

We could speculate that Rand/LTT will serve her in the project of sealing the bore and by doing so die in the process.

Fordan
04-11-2012, 12:06 AM
The thing about a redemption arc is that you need to see progress along it. With Lanfear you see her as power-hungry, self-centered and obsessive over Rand/LTT, which matches up to her behavior in the Age of Legends. She's that way all the way up through going through the doorway, and when she shows up again she's mindtrapped and hates it. She does say "I'm sorry. I'm so sorry." in Rand's dream but the rest of it is how much the mindtrap sucks and how she wishes she were dead. Not saying it won't happen, just that having it essentially happen only in the last book makes it weak. I could maybe see her saying "wow, I shouldn't have gone to the shadow, look what they did to me" but I can't see her moving too far from power-hungry, self-centered and obsessive so not exactly embracing the light.

I'm in the camp with Zombie Sammael: he's going to save her from Moridin and die in the process. "yet serves her still" could mean coming back to life and helping again, or it could just be emphasis that even though he dies, he succeeds in serving her. "Her new lover she seeks" has to be Rand. Just because she seeks for him to be her lover doesn't mean that they had to actually be lovers; written that way they almost couldn't be lovers yet. The fact that LTT would be her old lover may not play here since when this is written Rand hasn't started dealing with the LTT memories/voice beyond people calling him Lews Therin, right? Besides, at this point in the series, who else is it going to be, Asmodean? :)

Terez
04-11-2012, 01:40 AM
We discussed Egwene and Tuon. :)

Boli
04-11-2012, 11:18 AM
Im surprised no-one else has picked up on the play on words:

In the Old Tongue, Aes Sedai means "servants of all", and the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends lived up to this definition.

Rand Sedai is certainly the only living Age of Legends Aes Sedai who was not turned to the shadow :)

Zombie Sammael
04-11-2012, 01:00 PM
Im surprised no-one else has picked up on the play on words:

In the Old Tongue, Aes Sedai means "servants of all", and the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends lived up to this definition.

Rand Sedai is certainly the only living Age of Legends Aes Sedai who was not turned to the shadow :)

Okay, I think you're getting at the "serve her and die" part, correct? The trouble is, Rand Sedai is no more a servant of all than the AOL-AS who fought against the Shadow were, in the sense that they can't both serve the people of the Light and fight against the Shadow; fighting against someone could only be a service in a very specific context. So unless Lanfear/Cyndane is going to turn back to the Light (possible) then Rand Sedai isn't really serving her by just being an Aes Sedai. I think at some point it's possible the "All" in Aes Sedai came to mean "All" in the sense of "Everything that exists" rather than "Everyone", since that became the thing they were fighting to defend. As of right now Lanfear/Cyndane is still fighting against that. But we'll see.

Weiramon
04-11-2012, 04:57 PM
It seems we all asume that Lanfear (Cyndane) will serve the DO.

Easy now.

Let sleeping cats lie.

BobH
04-11-2012, 05:19 PM
The 2nd stanza of the DP reads:

The man who channels stands alone.
He gives his friends for sacrifice.
Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying,
one to life eternal.
Which will he choose? Which will he choose?
What hand shelters? What hand slays?

That sounds like pure Ishamael propaganda, to me. It’s basically telling Rand “you have two options – serve the Great Lord (the sheltering hand) and have life eternal, or serve the Light/Creator (the slaying hand) and die the final death. It’s essentially the same temptation he bludgeoned Rand with throughout the first 3 books.

If we accept that, then the 1st stanza about Lanfear is odd in that it suggests an outcome (that her “new lover will serve her and die, yet still serve”) for Rand (if we equate “new lover” to Rand) that is different (and more importantly, much less appealing) than the outcome that the 2nd stanza is trying to tempt Rand with (i.e. life eternal as the Great Lord’s servant).

In that context, I think the 1st stanza about Lanfear was intended as a warning to Rand. It’s saying that Lanfear is seeking a new lover, and IF SHE CAN SEDUCE THE MAN SHE SEEKS (I’m adding that as something implied by, but not explicitly stated by, this portion of the DP), he will end up serving her, and dying, and serving her still. Not a pleasant outcome, and quite different from the temptation offered in the 2nd stanza re life eternal in the service of the Great Lord.

In other words, I think the 1st stanza is a warning to Rand (from Ishamael) that if he falls for Lanfear, the outcome will NOT be pleasant. And that instead, Rand should serve him & the Great Lord directly, in order to enjoy life eternal.

And since I believe that when RJ said that “a Myrddraal wrote the DP, on orders, as a threat”, the “on orders” part meant “on orders from Ishamael”, the idea that the 1st stanza is a warning to Rand, from Ishamael, to beware Lanfear makes a lot of sense to me. He never wanted Rand to succumb to Lanfear, he wanted Rand to succumb to HIM, and therefore was warning Rand away from her.

So bottom line is, I don’t think Rand will ever serve Lanfear, die, and then server her still. The time when that might have happened has long since passed, I think. I do think there is still a Lanfear-Rand interaction that has yet to play out – the end of ToM makes that pretty clear, I just don’t think it will involve him serving her, dying in that service, and then still serving her afterwards, as Zombie suggests.

Zombie Sammael
04-11-2012, 05:53 PM
The 2nd stanza of the DP reads:

The man who channels stands alone.
He gives his friends for sacrifice.
Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying,
one to life eternal.
Which will he choose? Which will he choose?
What hand shelters? What hand slays?

That sounds like pure Ishamael propaganda, to me. It’s basically telling Rand “you have two options – serve the Great Lord (the sheltering hand) and have life eternal, or serve the Light/Creator (the slaying hand) and die the final death. It’s essentially the same temptation he bludgeoned Rand with throughout the first 3 books.

If we accept that, then the 1st stanza about Lanfear is odd in that it suggests an outcome (that her “new lover will serve her and die, yet still serve”) for Rand (if we equate “new lover” to Rand) that is different (and more importantly, much less appealing) than the outcome that the 2nd stanza is trying to tempt Rand with (i.e. life eternal as the Great Lord’s servant).

In that context, I think the 1st stanza about Lanfear was intended as a warning to Rand. It’s saying that Lanfear is seeking a new lover, and IF SHE CAN SEDUCE THE MAN SHE SEEKS (I’m adding that as something implied by, but not explicitly stated by, this portion of the DP), he will end up serving her, and dying, and serving her still. Not a pleasant outcome, and quite different from the temptation offered in the 2nd stanza re life eternal in the service of the Great Lord.

In other words, I think the 1st stanza is a warning to Rand (from Ishamael) that if he falls for Lanfear, the outcome will NOT be pleasant. And that instead, Rand should serve him & the Great Lord directly, in order to enjoy life eternal.

And since I believe that when RJ said that “a Myrddraal wrote the DP, on orders, as a threat”, the “on orders” part meant “on orders from Ishamael”, the idea that the 1st stanza is a warning to Rand, from Ishamael, to beware Lanfear makes a lot of sense to me. He never wanted Rand to succumb to Lanfear, he wanted Rand to succumb to HIM, and therefore was warning Rand away from her.

So bottom line is, I don’t think Rand will ever serve Lanfear, die, and then server her still. The time when that might have happened has long since passed, I think. I do think there is still a Lanfear-Rand interaction that has yet to play out – the end of ToM makes that pretty clear, I just don’t think it will involve him serving her, dying in that service, and then still serving her afterwards, as Zombie suggests.

I think possibly that is a bit of a stretch, since you're attempting to use something that's written with alternatives to disprove something that's written authoratively. I don't think that the two verses are directly comparable in that way, although there's obviously some foreshadowing of the possible futures Moiraine saw in there. We know that there are forms of prophecy that can predict multiple possibilities, so it's not out of the question that the verse does refer to that.

Regarding whether or not is prophecy, I found the quote which I think Terez was referring to when she said RJ said it was prophecy:


In The Great Hunt, who wrote the Dark Prophecy on the dungeon wall in Fal Dara? And why, after Ingtar released Padan Fain from the dungeon, did Fain decide to go to Toman Head? We know he was rebelling against Ishamael's orders (he was supposed to follow the Myrddraal to Shayol Ghul) but why did Fain go to Cairhien and then to Toman Head?
ROBERT JORDAN
A Myrddraal wrote the Dark Prophecy on orders, as a threat. I might want to use some of the reasons, so the rest on that is RAFO.

Fain (now amalgamated with Mordeth) was seeking his own power base, something he would try again with Pedron Niall and Toram Riatin. He wanted enough power to be able to kill Rand, Mat and Perrin, though most especially Rand, and to protect himself against agents of the Shadow. Because of Darkfriend reports, the Myrddraal who wrote the prophecy already knew who the strangers on Toman Head were, or claimed to be: Artur Hawkwing's armies returned to reclaim the lands stolen from Hawkwing's heirs. He knew that they collared women who could channel, which appealed to Fain/Mordeth, since one disliked Aes Sedai at best and the other purely hated them. The Myrddraal didn't simply give this up to Fain, you understand. Fain is one of the few people who could successfully torture information out of one of the Eyeless. As for why he went to Cairhien first, he knew the location of the Waygate there (along with several others and how to read the guidings in the Ways, this last from Mordeth) and preferred to use the Ways rather than make the longer cross-country journey from Fal Dara to Toman Head.

Emphasis mine. You can see that the questioner refers to it as prophecy. RJ had earlier RAFO'd a direct question about whether it was prophecy or just a taunt, so I don't think he'd give it away in such a throwaway manner. Rather, he was probably shortening "Dark Prophecy" to "prophecy" as a form of shorthand. My thinking on it has always been that there are elements of prophecy and elements which are just Trolloc grafitti. I tend to think that the bits which aren't stating authoritatively what will happen in the future are taunts, given in the knowledge the Dragon Reborn would likely see them; this includes the first verse where it says Rand stands alone and gives his friends for sacrifice, etc. But if you were doing something like this, using a prophecy as a taunt, it would stand to reason to make some parts sound worse than they are. No doubt the Myrddraal who wrote the prophecy wasn't the original source of it, and it may well have been intentionally altered - it's not like Ishamael wasn't up to corrupting prophecy for his own advantage, after all.

Fordan
04-11-2012, 08:40 PM
That sounds like pure Ishamael propaganda, to me. It’s basically telling Rand “you have two options – serve the Great Lord (the sheltering hand) and have life eternal, or serve the Light/Creator (the slaying hand) and die the final death. It’s essentially the same temptation he bludgeoned Rand with throughout the first 3 books.


I read the choices in the exact opposite meaning. :)

The Dark One seeks to stop the Wheel and end existence, which seems like a match for "death beyond dying." If Rand fights for the Creator and wins, then the Wheel continues to turn and he'll be spun out again, "life eternal."

Of course, that would make this a prophecy that touches on the end of everything/DO winning which most prophecies we know of have an issue with. Would dark prophecies have the same issue, given the origin?

Edynol
04-14-2012, 08:39 PM
We are also assuming that even though it is prophecy, it doesn't mean it's absolute. Like how regular prophecy would become void if the DO wins, maybe DP becomes void when the light wins.

Remember what Moiraine said to Rand? Even though there are prophecies about him, he can still die and all those prophecies become void and the DO wins. Well, maybe when Lanfear died or whatever happened to her in Finnland, the prophecies about her and Rand became void, thus proving Moiraine right about how rash actions can get you killed prophecy or no prophecy.

Tomp
09-28-2012, 02:23 PM
I saw a tweet by Felix about the dark prophecy in TGH.
I don't remember the details in the tweet but the section about "the dark one comes" he speculated might mean that the DO would impregnate Graendal.

I presume we shouldn't take that theory seriously.

Terez
09-28-2012, 03:01 PM
The Dark One does not sow.

Great Lord of the Dark
09-29-2012, 02:55 AM
Lanfear is still an Eve/Pandora figure and should end up helping Rand defeat the Dark One. She has been fairly honest that taking the Dark One out of the equation would suit her fine. So to serve her, Rand needs to help her rectify her mistake of opening the Bore. Poor Ishamael has misinterpreted the prophecy, assuming serving Lanfear means Rand is converted to evil. Foretellings are given by the Pattern, and thus serve the Pattern's design. That wording was provided by the Pattern to mislead the Forsaken.

It doesn't seem to be specified who ordered the Myrddraal to write the prophecy. I had some thoughts on Lanfear's role in my reread, on the assumption that Jordan meant for it to be somewhat obvious when the book is considered as a whole. Here is the relevant part:

It’s not as easy to unravel the haphazard plotting of the Forsaken, and this proves to be a flaw in the storytelling, or perhaps a feature so far as Theorylanders might see it. Ba’alzamon’s ranting during his occasional encounters with Rand has little to do with Toman Head or anything other than rehashing what will happen to Rand if he keeps channeling without Ba’alzamon’s help. The Trolloc incursion at Fal Dara and theft of the Horn can’t be tied to him, and since Lanfear’s presence was felt in the fortress before the night of the attack, it had to have been her who organized it. “Ishamael thinks he controls events, but I do.” She isn’t completely independent, since Ba’alzamon was able to track Rand down in both a Mirror World and shortly after his reappearance on Toman Head. Ba’alzamon’s main focus for this novel was overseeing the Seanchan invasion, and trying to send Rand’s allies to captivity as damane. Lanfear trailed Rand for most of his journey, attempting to shape him, leaving his side only when she might be exposed as a liar. She is unperturbed by the fact that the Myrddraal failed to take the Horn north to Shayol Ghul, the fact that Rand chases after it is enough. Rand is her prize, not the Horn. When Fain escapes through the Waygate, Lanfear’s lever to prod Rand is taken with him, and she kills Barthanes messily for allowing this to happen. She now realizes to what extent Fain sets his own path. Though Barthanes must have told her where Fain went, her only hope to keep shaping Rand lies with him chasing down the Horn, so she does not interfere. She dare not meet Rand while he is with his friends, and his four month absence by Portal Stone keeps her away until after the battle at Falme.

The outstanding question of who wrote the Dark Prophecy, and a few other questions readers are reminded of throughout the book, is finally answered by Moiraine. Her last minute revelation about Padan Fain and Mordeth is meant to provide closure to the outstanding questions. Readers knew Fain had secret knowledge and newfound powers, if not their extent, now they know how he acquired them. He is the only character who spoke openly of luring Rand to Toman Head, scrawling his own message in blood for Rand to read, alongside the Dark Prophecy in neatly printed Trolloc script. Whether his knowledge comes from Mordeth, or was gleaned from Ba’alzamon in earlier trips to Shayol Ghul is yet to be determined.

Landro
10-01-2012, 04:58 AM
We know that it's sometimes hard to find a literal translation for the old tongue and some translations aren't very exact.

What if "Daughter of the Night" is a mistranslation for "Daughter of the nine moons"?

The ancient war would then refer to the war between Hawkwing and the AS and the shining walls kneeling could be referring to the first or second attack against the white tower by the seanchan.

Her new lover would be Mat (has she had a previous one?) who has certainly served and died too although that was before they met.

GonzoTheGreat
10-01-2012, 05:58 AM
Some problems with that:
Tuon hasn't had a previous lover.
The one who did the translation was Verin, and I don't think she would make such a mistake. Of course, I'm not sure what language she translated it from (whether it was written in a Trolloc language or the Old Tongue), so there's that.

Ozymandias
10-02-2012, 10:57 AM
I think possibly that is a bit of a stretch, since you're attempting to use something that's written with alternatives to disprove something that's written authoratively. I don't think that the two verses are directly comparable in that way, although there's obviously some foreshadowing of the possible futures Moiraine saw in there. We know that there are forms of prophecy that can predict multiple possibilities, so it's not out of the question that the verse does refer to that.


I understood the point to be that a prophecy we are pretty sure is true (the one quoted) is directly contradicting a prophecy we KNOW to be true (Karaetheon Cycle), at least in intent. Therefore, if you cast doubt on the validity of one, you cast doubt on everything in that prophecy.

On the other hand, the Shadow Prophecy makes no mention whatsoever about which actions lead to which options. It could still mean that choosing the Light means life eternal (as a Hero) and choosing the Shadow never-ending death. The it syncs with all other available prophecies, just implies the opposite.

GonzoTheGreat
10-02-2012, 11:32 AM
Come to think of it, I think that no one ever bothered to inform Rand of this particular prophecy. Guess it's none of his business.

Landro
10-02-2012, 05:40 PM
Come to think of it, I think that no one ever bothered to inform Rand of this particular prophecy. Guess it's none of his business.

Rand was there after the fade wrote that prophesy in blood so he had a chance to read it.

GonzoTheGreat
10-03-2012, 05:06 AM
Yes, he did. But the fact that, at least at the time, he did not know the Trolloc script in which it was written seems to sort of limit the usefulness of that opportunity.

newyorkersedai
10-03-2012, 07:59 PM
Very nice, Great Lord! Well thought-out and explained...

It's such a minor point, but - Something suggests to me that Lanfear is even more an analogue for Lilith than for Eve, tho. What do you think?

Great Lord of the Dark
10-03-2012, 10:30 PM
Yes, as a first 'wife' set aside, there's a bit of Lilith in Lanfear as well, but she is far less well known than Pandora or Eve, who are two of the most renowned mythical women. For story purposes, there is little to be said about Lilith after she is set aside, but opening the box of evil, or tasting the forbidden fruit of knowledge as original sin, introduces the possibility of Rand as the one who redeems her. It's Lanfear's actions as Eve, not Lilith, that set up the circumstances requiring his sacrifice, which is the crux of the story. When Rand faces the Dark One, it will be to save all humanity, even the worst elements of it like Lanfear and the Forsaken. I give a lot of importance to Lanfear's role because she was revealed early on, and an author ought to be showing readers the people who matter most early in the story. Thematically, the early attention to her makes more sense in her role as Eve/Pandora.

newyorkersedai
10-05-2012, 08:54 PM
Very nice! I personally always thought that part of the Torah's story about Lillith was co-opted for Xianity's Eve - namely, that she's the "mother of evil," something made more explicit by Lillith pimping herself out to the Devil. In Eve's case, it was introducing evil into the world; in Lillith's case, it's actually joining Satan's side and "birthing evil." (Yes, the Torah has not).

But you're right, Pandora and Eve are more well-known, and may be more appropriate, despite all my thoughts aside.

Yes, as a first 'wife' set aside, there's a bit of Lilith in Lanfear as well, but she is far less well known than Pandora or Eve, who are two of the most renowned mythical women. For story purposes, there is little to be said about Lilith after she is set aside, but opening the box of evil, or tasting the forbidden fruit of knowledge as original sin, introduces the possibility of Rand as the one who redeems her. It's Lanfear's actions as Eve, not Lilith, that set up the circumstances requiring his sacrifice, which is the crux of the story. When Rand faces the Dark One, it will be to save all humanity, even the worst elements of it like Lanfear and the Forsaken. I give a lot of importance to Lanfear's role because she was revealed early on, and an author ought to be showing readers the people who matter most early in the story. Thematically, the early attention to her makes more sense in her role as Eve/Pandora.

Surmiser
10-12-2012, 08:27 PM
Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die,
yet serve still.


My guess here is this is partially fulfilled when
Rand in TSR 26 're-lived' thru ancestor Charn - a servant of Mierin who died in 2nd Age.
(serving in the past but re-lived in the present)

yet serve still --- this is unfulfilled. i think Rand would possibly rescue or serve Cyndane

Surmiser
10-13-2012, 05:16 PM
Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great
Lord comes.


Really cool nugget to find in this Dark Prophecy something that dovetails with Aviendha's viewing in Rhuidean- a future conflict between the Raven Empire (the seed of the Hammer) and the Aiel (ancient failing to follow the Way of Leaf)

Surmiser
10-13-2012, 06:26 PM
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.

I am guessing this phrase refers to a
philosophical truism - bloodshed begets more bloodshed, wars beget more wars, as each side tries to settle old scores.

The phrase being repeated four times might have
some significance (or not).
I can only guess that there would be also be four major encounters between Rand forces and Seanchan.
1. Toman Head - Horn of Valere
2. Tarabon/Arad Doman - Ituralde campaign
3. Illian/Ebou Dar - Rand with Callandor
4. Seanchan v White Tower strike -

There might still be an impending Seanchan attack on WT. and the (2) and (3) listed above might be considered just one campaign.

I'm more than interested seeing other views on this.

Yosarian
10-23-2012, 08:05 PM
Yes, but that didn't happen, so it can't fulfill the prophecy, can it? Foretellings are supposed to be absolute, and this one has the form of a Foretelling. And RJ seemed to confirm it was a legitimate prophecy.

I don't think that's true. A lot of characters who should know (everyone from Moraine to Siuan to Lanfear herself) have told us that prophecies are mearly what might happen, not what will happen. In fact, people say over and over again that if Rand is killed early, the prophecies of the dragon simply will not happen and then the dark one wins, and that a prophecy doesn't stop your thread from being cut from the pattern.

The only prophecies we've seen that it's implied *must* come true are Min's viewings. I think everything else is up for grabs. And the thing we have been specifically told can prevent a prophecy, which is the prophecy's subject being removed from the pattern prematurely before the prophecy can come true, is what happened to Lanfear. I think that this prophecy is what would have happened if Moraine hadn't intervened.