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View Full Version : Egwene's Chasity, Weird Looking Tinkers, Random Musings


SDLong92
04-13-2012, 10:45 PM
Hello everyone, I am new here but have been reading the series for a long time. Just have been rereading the series gearing up the final novel and had some questions that I'm not sure have been answered as they are a bit strange. Let me know what you think, even if its just to tell me I'm off my rocker!


WHY DON'T TINKERS LOOK LIKE AIEL OR EVEN REMOTELY SIMILAR?

They are from the same blood stock so it should reason that a good portion would be tall, light skinned, light eyed, and red headed. I don't believe there has been that much intermarriage between outside populations because no other nations really seem to have a high opinion of them. And i refuse to believe they "stole" enough children or converted enough people to dilute their genetics. Did i miss something? I can't recall any instance of a character describing them as Aiel like in appearance.

IS EGWENE STILL A VIRGIN?

Wise Ones in Rand's camp said they didn't dare enter into the Shaido Wise Ones' dreams because it was too dangerous due to hatred. They said they'd be at the will of the dreamer. Now I take this as meaning there are physical ramifications i.e. if they get stabbed in that dream they are stabbed in real life, otherwise I can't see how it would be dangerous. I mean who cares if you go into a Shaido Wise Ones' dream and just realize she thinks you're a bitch.

Ishmael visits the three Two Rivers boys in their normal dreams and breaks rats' backs and does other things I can't recall off the top of my head that have physical effects upon waking.

Countless times the girls and Aes Sedai are drawn into nightmares (which are peoples dreams) and there are physical ramifications upon waking.

So is Egwene a virgin since Gawyn slept with her in his dream?



IF YOU MAKE A SWORD OUT OF IRON OR STEEL, HONE IT TO THE FINEST EDGE POSSIBLE AND THEN CONVERT IT INTO CUENDILLAR WILL IT BE ABLE TO CUT ANYTHING?

For theory sake imagine you have a glass dowel and shoot it from a bow at a wall made of diamond, when the dowel strikes the wall we can agree that the dowel will either shatter or chip due to impact before it hits the floor yes. If you were to shoot the same dowel at a wall made of memory foam space mattresses the dowel will not have taken any damage. This is because the mattress absorbed the entire force of the dowels forward momentum until it reaches zero through its elasticity. Diamond walls have high rigidity and does not absorb much, but rather resists the external force of the dowel. The dowel in the diamond wall scenario hits the wall carrying %100 of its force, has a negligible amount absorbed and the rest is "backed up" (much like feeding compressed air into a pipe plugged on the other end until it bursts) in the dowel itself causing it to shatter.

Soooo, we know that cuendillar ABSORBS and strengthens itself with any force applied to it. We also can surmise that cuendillar HAS to absorb 100% of any force applied to it or otherwise it can be damaged by any material will a higher relative hardness rating. If the dowel were shot at a cuendillar wall wouldn't then the wall absorb 100% of the dowel's forward momentum (reducing it to zero) and cause the dowel at the time of impact to fall to the ground undamaged? If that is true, wouldn't the same thing happen if the dowel were shot at the point of a cuendillar spike or cuendillar blade? Is this the reason we see no cuendillar weapons (which takes no time at all to make), but rather see Power Wrought weapons that take much more effort to make?

I know its a long post but I'm sure you can manage since you've made it through 13 books already! :p

maleshub
04-13-2012, 11:53 PM
I think that Egwene was consumed by Gawyn's dream (normal dream) that she ran into in the black space where all the dreams are. And I think that is different from TAR, where physical effect is mirrored in the real world.

If the above is correct, all Egwene and Gawyn had was a mutual wet-dream; not a TAR experience.

SDLong92
04-14-2012, 12:04 AM
Yes, but why would the the Wise Ones on Rand's side be afraid then to enter into the Shaido Wise One's normal dreams? Why would Ishmael be able to enter into the boys' normal dreams and effect the physical world?

maleshub
04-14-2012, 12:40 AM
I don't know the answer to your questions. I was just differentiating between TAR and the black space where all dreams are (if there is a difference in the first place).

Cortar
04-14-2012, 01:02 AM
Yes, but why would the the Wise Ones on Rand's side be afraid then to enter into the Shaido Wise One's normal dreams? Why would Ishmael be able to enter into the boys' normal dreams and effect the physical world?

I think you are right and she is not a virgin anymore, but I would think its probably impossible to get pregnant via dreams.

About cuendillar; who says its elastic? Because its most definitely not (it does not yield any space when struck) instead, imagine it has a 100000 on the mohs hardness scale

SDLong92
04-14-2012, 01:17 AM
I think you are right and she is not a virgin anymore, but I would think its probably impossible to get pregnant via dreams.

About cuendillar; who says its elastic? Because its most definitely not (it does not yield any space when struck) instead, imagine it has a 100000 on the mohs hardness scale

Sorry I wasn't more clear. I don't mean to say that cuendillar is elastic, but rather was using the mattress' elasticity as an example of what should happen to a dowel if it struck a material that had the ability to absorb external forces applied to it. Which in theory is to leave it undamaged, at least in my view.

Weird Harold
04-14-2012, 01:37 AM
... i refuse to believe they "stole" enough children or converted enough people to dilute their genetics. Did i miss something? ...

In Terez' signature is a link (http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_2fpznmj)to the interview database. It should answer a lot of your questions. Whether you choose to believe RJ's explanations or not is up to you. :D

Cortar
04-14-2012, 02:20 AM
In Terez' signature is a link (http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_2fpznmj)to the interview database. It should answer a lot of your questions. Whether you choose to believe RJ's explanations or not is up to you. :D

RJ has been wrong before.... For example: he was wrong about Taim being Demendred

McCaber
04-14-2012, 03:03 AM
Egwene was in dreamspace there, not TAR. Just because you don't get physically scarred in a Shaido dream doesn't mean you can't feel awesome amounts of pain and mental anguish.

I always assumed that Ba'alzamon dragged the boys into TAR and used his force of will to keep them in the same state they had. But the quote database doesn't say if it was a dream or TAR, so I guess I might be wrong on that. Interesting.

SDLong92
04-14-2012, 10:48 AM
Egwene was in dreamspace there, not TAR. Just because you don't get physically scarred in a Shaido dream doesn't mean you can't feel awesome amounts of pain and mental anguish.

I always assumed that Ba'alzamon dragged the boys into TAR and used his force of will to keep them in the same state they had. But the quote database doesn't say if it was a dream or TAR, so I guess I might be wrong on that. Interesting.

I also remember a scene though where Lanfear enters one of Rand's normal dreams (not TAR), he was dreaming of swimming at Waterwood with Min, Aviendha, and Elayne. Lanfear then gets into the water with Rand and bites his neck to mark him as hers. Upon waking he has teeth marks on his neck/shoulder area. She was able to do this to him in one of his own NORMAL dreams! Egwene would be bound by the same rules too and Ba'alzamon should be able to affect the boys in normal non TAR dreams as well.

Edynol
04-14-2012, 11:32 AM
RJ has been wrong before.... For example: he was wrong about Taim being Demendred

Umm...No? He said Taim was not Demandred, which is true. What he says is canon, he is the creator of the whole thing. Anyone who says otherwise is either stubborn or ignorant, most likely both.

Also, elastic or foam r anything of the like doesn't absorb the impact, perse`. It redistributes the force evenly in accordance to an items volume and mass. You also have to take into account velocity and aerodynamics. They make plastic bullets that can pierce metal, so there ya go.

Now having said that, Cuendillar is magical stuff and defies the laws of physics, so normal science doesn't apply to it anyway.

Davian93
04-14-2012, 11:42 AM
They are from the same blood stock so it should reason that a good portion would be tall, light skinned, light eyed, and red headed. I don't believe there has been that much intermarriage between outside populations because no other nations really seem to have a high opinion of them. And i refuse to believe they "stole" enough children or converted enough people to dilute their genetics. Did i miss something? I can't recall any instance of a character describing them as Aiel like in appearance.

Its been 3500 years since the Breaking...that's a really, really, really long time. Also, you are underestimating how easy it is to breed out recessive genes like the ones that cause light eye and light hair color.

Edynol
04-14-2012, 11:58 AM
Its been 3500 years since the Breaking...that's a really, really, really long time. Also, you are underestimating how easy it is to breed out recessive genes like the ones that cause light eye and light hair color.
This. My cousin Shannon married a hispanic guy, and their daughter has red hair and green eyes and light skin just like her. If it weren't for her nose and ears, you wouldn't think she was his daughter at all. So if that can happen with just one generation, don't you think after millenia of breeding and such with wetlanders and avoiding the other Aiel would remove any traces of aiel blood?

SDLong92
04-14-2012, 12:27 PM
This. My cousin Shannon married a hispanic guy, and their daughter has red hair and green eyes and light skin just like her. If it weren't for her nose and ears, you wouldn't think she was his daughter at all. So if that can happen with just one generation, don't you think after millenia of breeding and such with wetlanders and avoiding the other Aiel would remove any traces of aiel blood?

And

This. My cousin Shannon married a hispanic guy, and their daughter has red hair and green eyes and light skin just like her. If it weren't for her nose and ears, you wouldn't think she was his daughter at all. So if that can happen with just one generation, don't you think after millenia of breeding and such with wetlanders and avoiding the other Aiel would remove any traces of aiel blood?

Those statements would only be true if you believe there has been extensive intermarriage between the original Aiel Tinkers with the members out outside societies. Which I do NOT believe is true (as stated in my original post).

You have to realize for someone to marry into a Tinker family the non Tinker would have to ADOPT Tinker ways and lifestyles. This means you'd have to give up your FAMILY to wander around indefinitely never to see your parents/brothers/sisters/uncles/aunts/etc EVER again, you'd not be able to defend yourself or the family you just made (including the very real possibility of watching loved ones be murdered/raped/taken advantage of), and be PERSECUTED any where you went!

Tinkers are extremely devote in their beliefs and would require that the prospective bride/groom be as devote. We can see from real life situations that this is very rare and not common as you all are making it out to seem. This is why mixed religion marriages aren't seen more often (again this is only applies to devote practitioners such as Tinkers). Muslims women can only marry Muslim men,Jewish can marry only Jewish or converts, Gypsies are isolated populations, and let's not deny the very real issue of Racial Bias (like is more likely to marry like).

How many here could change every belief they've ever had, toss away family to go wandering around, wear garish clothes, all to know that wherever you go you will be persecuted against? I just don't think many here in real life or in Rand Land could/would do it.

Edynol
04-14-2012, 01:02 PM
Those statements would only be true if you believe there has been extensive intermarriage between the original Aiel Tinkers with the members out outside societies. Which I do NOT believe is true (as stated in my original post).

You have to realize for someone to marry into a Tinker family the non Tinker would have to ADOPT Tinker ways and lifestyles. This means you'd have to give up your FAMILY to wander around indefinitely never to see your parents/brothers/sisters/uncles/aunts/etc EVER again, you'd not be able to defend yourself or the family you just made (including the very real possibility of watching loved ones be murdered/raped/taken advantage of), and be PERSECUTED any where you went!

Tinkers are extremely devote in their beliefs and would require that the prospective bride/groom be as devote. We can see from real life situations that this is very rare and not common as you all are making it out to seem. This is why mixed religion marriages aren't seen more often (again this is only applies to devote practitioners such as Tinkers). Muslims women can only marry Muslim men,Jewish can marry only Jewish or converts, Gypsies are isolated populations, and let's not deny the very real issue of Racial Bias (like is more likely to marry like).

How many here could change every belief they've ever had, toss away family to go wandering around, wear garish clothes, all to know that wherever you go you will be persecuted against? I just don't think many here in real life or in Rand Land could/would do it.

Obviously there are plenty. I mean, have you even read some of Perrin's earlier POVs? Obviously, a lot people don't think about most of what you said, being ridiculed, attacked, taken advantage of, etc. Even Perrin, who did think of those things, found it a little enticing. It's the ideology of it all that attracts those who join. A world where no one harms another, a world void of war, conflict, intolerance and prejudice? Those are the ideals the Tuatha'an represent and preach, and its those ideals that are enticing to a lot of people.

I know I wouldn't mind a world where everyone was a Tinker, and I think most would agree with me on that. And for the same reason someone would chose to become a darkfriend and murder their family and loved ones to achieve power, others are willing to make that sacrifice to live a life of peace and tranquility, the only difference is that the latter's families get to live.

So to think there aren't many people who would welcome the idea that are alive today would be absurd, not to mention over the past 3,000+ years.

Edit: Also think of this. Randland has no shortage of bullies, rather they be individuals or entire nations. So if you were seen as low by most everyone else and bullied and such, wouldn't you jump at the chance to be part of a society that has absolute zero tolerance for such behavior? Think how many people who have been bullied who joined them over the ages for a better life?

Weird Harold
04-14-2012, 02:17 PM
...Those statements would only be true if you believe there has been extensive intermarriage ...

It doesn't take marriage or a lifetime commitment to add diverse genes to the Tinker genome. :rolleyes: A dark corner, a willing tinker girl, and five minutes is enough. The willingness of the Tinker girl is optional, of course.

Edynol
04-14-2012, 02:20 PM
It doesn't take marriage or a lifetime commitment to add diverse genes to the Tinker genome. :rolleyes: A dark corner, a willing tinker girl, and five minutes is enough. The willingness of the Tinker girl is optional, of course.
Ahh yes. I almost forgot about the tinker girls. They are not exactly nuns, if you catch my meaning. :P lol.

aleuthard
04-23-2012, 02:35 PM
There's a reason Tinkers are accused of stealing children. It's not made up. Enough have chosen to join the Tinkers through time that the narrative that they steal children has stuck. Plenty of interbreeding there. Also: tall, red hair,etc might be qualities that several thousand years of living in the Three Fold Land might breed into a people.

Grig
04-23-2012, 02:41 PM
There's a reason Tinkers are accused of stealing children. It's not made up. Enough have chosen to join the Tinkers through time that the narrative that they steal children has stuck.

You know, this one time I saw a black guy eating a watermelon. I don't see why they get so pissed off when I bring the subject up.

Tomp
04-23-2012, 03:09 PM
The tinker thing.

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that the Aiel in AOL was not a race of people. I thought it was a title for those who were servants of AS and they had quite different appearances.

I also thought that the group that broke away from their practices and started using weapons was a rather small group of people and many of them were blood relatives.

The tinkers havs had an influx of new members to their group for a couple of thousand years and the aiel haven't (except for Tigraine). The resulting effect would be that aiel would probably be significantly more similar in appearance.

If I'm wrong please point it out. I always want to expand my knowledge on these subjects.

Maesterbaevern
04-24-2012, 12:52 AM
Yes, but why would the the Wise Ones on Rand's side be afraid then to enter into the Shaido Wise One's normal dreams? Why would Ishmael be able to enter into the boys' normal dreams and effect the physical world?

As for why Amys and friends are avoiding the Shaido's dreams, I have read somewhere (do not how the books here at work and Google did not help) that strong feelings can get you pulled into another's dreams.
Strong feelings can mean both love and hatred and while Egwene had a pleasant encounter with Gawyn, the "Rand Wise Ones" could get pulled by hatred into a Shaido's dream. I do not believe that would be as nice Egwene's and it is therefore they avoid them.

Someone could perhaps help find a section where this is discussed?

jana
04-24-2012, 02:32 AM
There's a t in Chastity. Why do I know this? That secret belongs to others. Also Cher wrote a song about her. Okay, I will be quite now. I mean quiet.


Chastity Sun, you are the one
That can make me smile
When I'm feeling sad
You come close to me
And my heart goes running free
You are the proof God lives
You are his gift to me

Sweet baby girl
You make my world
Bright and shinning new
When I look at you
In your eyes I see
The world that God meant to be
There's no hate or angry
Just love for humanity

GonzoTheGreat
04-24-2012, 03:22 AM
The tinkers havs had an influx of new members to their group for a couple of thousand years and the aiel haven't (except for Tigraine). The resulting effect would be that aiel would probably be significantly more similar in appearance.

If I'm wrong please point it out. I always want to expand my knowledge on these subjects.
The Aiel do welcome gleemen into the Waste, and let them travel around wherever they like to go. Musicians being the way they are, I suspect that would result in a fairly steady supply of outside genes for the Aiel.

Whizbang
10-02-2012, 03:26 PM
In tEotW, Lan breaks a knife against the broken pieces of the Seal. The knife did not just stop. The force was not merely absorbed. The Seal was just super hard.

I don't remember the exact quote, but it was something like "Whatever force is used against it just makes it stronger". It didn't say it absorbed the force, merely that it becomes stronger when force is applied to it.

On a side note: If the above is true, why didn't the "Watcher of the Seals" constantly, or at least regularly, channel against the Seals to make them stronger? Seems to be a no brainer. Between The BReaking and The Trolloc Wars where they were lost, seems like they could have made the Seals super-duper-extra-ultra-fantastically-strong, and prevent the DO from breaking free. Or, for that matter, once the Seals are found again, just channel into them until they get stronger. Nyn had one for quite some time and was afraid to carry it for fear of breaking it. So, maybe a weak weave to tap against the Seal. Rinse and repeat until it is no longer soft enough to cut. Then, increase the power of the weave. Rinse and repeat until you hammer at the thing with Balefire (which, BTW, doesn't seem to destroy Cuendillar objects).

Cortar
10-02-2012, 04:39 PM
In tEotW, Lan breaks a knife against the broken pieces of the Seal. The knife did not just stop. The force was not merely absorbed. The Seal was just super hard.

I don't remember the exact quote, but it was something like "Whatever force is used against it just makes it stronger". It didn't say it absorbed the force, merely that it becomes stronger when force is applied to it.

On a side note: If the above is true, why didn't the "Watcher of the Seals" constantly, or at least regularly, channel against the Seals to make them stronger? Seems to be a no brainer. Between The BReaking and The Trolloc Wars where they were lost, seems like they could have made the Seals super-duper-extra-ultra-fantastically-strong, and prevent the DO from breaking free. Or, for that matter, once the Seals are found again, just channel into them until they get stronger. Nyn had one for quite some time and was afraid to carry it for fear of breaking it. So, maybe a weak weave to tap against the Seal. Rinse and repeat until it is no longer soft enough to cut. Then, increase the power of the weave. Rinse and repeat until you hammer at the thing with Balefire (which, BTW, doesn't seem to destroy Cuendillar objects).
This is assuming that the physical strength is what is keeping the dark one locked up which is quite silly. It's more likely that the physical seals could have been anything and cuellindar was chosen so the seals don't get lost and destroyed by mistake.

Cortar
10-02-2012, 04:42 PM
The Aiel do welcome gleemen into the Waste, and let them travel around wherever they like to go. Musicians being the way they are, I suspect that would result in a fairly steady supply of outside genes for the Aiel.

Gleemen aren't stupid. The only non aiel we have seen sleep with an Aiel woman and live are Matt and Rand and look at what they had to go through before and after the deed.

Great Lord of the Dark
10-02-2012, 10:54 PM
Cortar, you are my hero.

Long live Taimandred.

Also, Cuendillar blades must be less advantageous than Power-wrought blades, or that's what Heron-mark blades would look like.

GonzoTheGreat
10-03-2012, 04:24 AM
Gleemen aren't stupid. The only non aiel we have seen sleep with an Aiel woman and live are Matt and Rand and look at what they had to go through before and after the deed.
True, I think, as far as it goes. It doesn't go all that far, though:
Rummaging in the cabinets by touch, he pulled out butchering knife. Disposing of a whole corpse would be difficult, but luckily the dead did not bleed much; the robe would absorb what little there was. Maybe he could find the woman who had left the note under his door. If she was not pretty enough, she must have friends who were also Darkfriends. Natael would not care if it was an Aiel woman who visited him Kadere would rather have bedded a viper himself; Aiel were dangerous and maybe an Aiel would have a better chance than Isendre against Aviendha. Kneeling, he hummed quietly to himself as he worked, a lullaby that Teodora had taught him.
This suggests, but does not quite explicitly spell out, that the gleeman Jasin Natael had slept with Aiel before.

Whizbang
10-03-2012, 10:56 AM
Maybe Cuendillar is too heavy? Or maybe there was some really strict rules about what could be made into Cuendillar. It supposedly lasts forever, so they wouldn't want to flood the world with things that will never disappear. They also are coming from an age of peace, where swords is merely a game. So, making a Cuendillar sword would imply a permenance to the fighting needed to be done. They were hoping the fighting would stop at some point and they could melt down the swords and turn them into something else.

Figbiscuit
10-10-2012, 04:29 AM
RJ has been wrong before.... For example: he was wrong about Taim being Demendred

*high five*

boy
10-10-2012, 07:23 AM
This remains my favourite needlessly tortured theory.

I can't wait till AMoL comes out so I can explain how obvious it is that it's still true.

SauceyBlueConfetti
10-10-2012, 10:01 AM
I don't remember the exact quote, but it was something like "Whatever force is used against it just makes it stronger". It didn't say it absorbed the force, merely that it becomes stronger when force is applied to it.

TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 52 - Neither Beginning Nor End
"Cuendillar, " Moiraine said. "Heartstone. No one has been able to make it since the Age of Legends, and even then it was made only for the greatest purpose. Once made, nothing can break it. Not the One Power itself wielded by the greatest Aes Sedai who ever lived aided by the most powerful sa'angreal ever made. Any power directed against heartstone only makes it stronger."

although Moiraine has been proven wrong before, or misguided, or misinformed, it is repeated throughtout the books that cuendillar is unbreakable.

However, when I found this quote I was struck by the bolded part as it SCREAMS Lanfear (enhanced as we know she is - heheheh - to be the most powerful, ever) and her possibly finding a way to break cuendillar. Dunno, just found it interesting and wondered if it was a loose thread or not, or if it in fact shows she will be the one to help Rand use Callandor. And use it how? To finally break all the seals.

Edited to add:

Lanfear isn't Aes Sedai, so I am probably wrong :D

Lost One
12-14-2012, 04:57 PM
Peace of the light be upon you.

I think Aiel was a job discription during the AOL. Perhaps, there were different kinds of Aiel. After all, in the terangral, during the AOL, the Aiel who who served and were sent away with the OP toys, were the Da'Shain Aiel. It is only after wandering that they became referred to simply as Aiel, which broke furt her into Jenn, Aiel, and Tuathan.

Aiel Bloodlines are basically inbred traits. They did not accept/mix with others after they picked up the spear.

Tu'Athan accept all who wish to join, young men or women, i.e. the whole stealing children stereotype. However, if someone had joined for a while, and then left because they did not like it, genetic legacy could have still been passed. Spouses/lovers leave families all the time. They also would have taken in refugees.

While I will not say a will not say a Tinker girl is "as forward as a farmgirl at harvest", the do know the Tingaza, and the Sa'Sara.

Lost One
12-14-2012, 05:09 PM
I can tell a guy started this thread because of the interest in Egwene's virginity.. lol