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Edynol
04-14-2012, 06:22 PM
Who do you think stands a good chance at becoming a hero of the horn in the future? There are a lot of good fighters and characters whom I think stand a good chance of being added to the 'Cool Kid Club'. lol.

The 1st that comes to mind is Hurin. I know he's a minor character after TGH, but I think he is one of the most noble, loyal people in the series.

Then there is Mat, of course. He distined for it, so no need to comment much on that.

I also think Lan stands a very high chance as well. Even after all that he's lost, his family, Moiraine(As far as he knows), his entire kingdom pretty much, he still stands steadfast against the shadow and leading an army to face the shadow.

Jain Farstrider has also done a lot, especially sacrificing himself so Mat and the other could escape the Finns.

I don't know if wolf-brothers can become heroes, though they are masters of the Dream. I would say Elyas. But not Perrin because he's not really a fighter at heart and don't think he would like being bound to the horn as a warrior.

So what do yall think?

Weird Harold
04-14-2012, 07:05 PM
I think everyone you named, including Perrin but excluding Hurin, is already tied to the Horn. They didn't answer the Horn's Call at Falme because they were currently spun out for a role at T'G or afterwards, but are tied to the Horn nonetheless.

Edynol
04-14-2012, 07:17 PM
Nah because they would have been recognized, like how they recognized Rand as Lews Therin. When they are in that 'Dream State', I guess I'll call it for heroes not yet spun out, they seem to be able to see a person's soul rather than their physical appearance.

GonzoTheGreat
04-15-2012, 05:08 AM
Nah because they would have been recognized, like how they recognized Rand as Lews Therin.
They may have been recognised but not acknowledged as Heroes. Or, alternatively, Dream Heroes can't generally recognise living ones as such, but the Dragon is an exception, possibly only in Falme-like circumstances.

Edited to add:
Artur Hawkwing clapped the sniffer on the shoulder. "Sometimes the Wheel adds to our number, friend. Perhaps you will find yourself among us, one day." Hurin sat up as if he had been offered a crown. Hawkwing bowed formally from his saddle to Rand. "With your permission ... Lord Rand. Trumpeter, will you give us music on the Horn? Fitting that the Horn of Valere should sing us into battle. Bannerman, will you advance?"
This actually suggests, without spelling it out, that Hawkwing did recognise Mat and Perrin as Heroes. He does explicitly say of Hurin only that it would be possible for him to become one, after all, which either means that Mat and Perrin could never manage that, or that they already are part of that select Company.

clarett
04-15-2012, 07:54 AM
For some reason, not particularly supported by anything, I always thought Hopper would be called by the horn. Don't know if it's possible since he died a true death in TAR. But I always found his story line in TAR to be much like Birgitta's and Gaidal's.Don't even know if wolves can be bound to the horn. Probably just wishful thinking on my part but wouldn't that be great? Like maybe Perrin is struggling in TLB, Mat blows the horn and there's Hopper, and Perrin gets his second wind. LOL like I said wishful.

Edynol
04-15-2012, 08:55 AM
I have no indication that they recognized Perrin or Mat. Mat blew the horn so they are bound to him, of course they'll know he's the horn sounder. And Perrin was right there holding the banner, so duh, he must be the bannerman. And when Artur was talking to Hurin, maybe he was also talking to everyone else since they were all in listening distance.

As for Hopper, I don't think so, but I could be wrong. Though that does lead to a question. If you die in TAR, is that akin to being balefired, as in you are cut out of the pattern, but not totally gone? Remember even those who are balefire aren't completely dead and out of the pattern forever, they can still be woven back in the future, just means the DO can't snatch em and such.

clarett
04-15-2012, 02:18 PM
You're right Hopper dying in TAR is not perma death. Though sometimes I think of it that way. But if you die in TAR you die IRL too. But since Hopper was already dead he was more like Bir/Gaidal.

SauceyBlueConfetti
04-15-2012, 02:50 PM
You're right Hopper dying in TAR is not perma death. Though sometimes I think of it that way. But if you die in TAR you die IRL too. But since Hopper was already dead he was more like Bir/Gaidal.

Uh, no....



3 TITLE: Shadow Rising
* CHAPTER: 28 - To the Tower of Ghenjei
* Perrin paused. There was a sense of finality to the emotions his mind attached the word "kill" to. "Hopper, what happens to a wolf who dies in the dream?" The wolf was silent for a time. If we die here, we die forever, Young Bull. I do not know if the same is true for you, but I believe it is.

Edynol
04-15-2012, 03:10 PM
Well some said the same thing about balefire in the book, but then RJ said otherwise. Yes, it takes them out of the pattern, but eventually they will be woven back in. So I think its safe to assume that Hopper could have been mistaken as well.

SauceyBlueConfetti
04-15-2012, 06:53 PM
Well some said the same thing about balefire in the book, but then RJ said otherwise. Yes, it takes them out of the pattern, but eventually they will be woven back in. So I think its safe to assume that Hopper could have been mistaken as well.

Did you read Towers of Midnight? 4+ chapters are devoted to Hopper+Perrin and the final death impact.

Can you provide the bale fire quote you are referencing please? I have no idea what you are referring to or how it could support your comments.

Edynol
04-15-2012, 07:00 PM
http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php
Entry 2.

Robert Jordan
If someone is balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the Wheel as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul. He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back. There was a long line, so I didn't press.

Oops, those links are funny. http://www.theoryland.com/wheel-of-time-interview-search.php Click on balefire and scroll down a tad.

There is also mention that if the balefire is weak enough, the DO can still grab a soul and reincarnate it.

fdsaf3
04-15-2012, 08:06 PM
I don't see how Farstrider can be tied to the Horn. Wouldn't it make sense that in some way the Heroes were akin to ta'veren in their purpose? Darkfriends can't be ta'veren, so it would seem to me (without any corroborating evidence or support, I admit) unlikely that a darkfriend would be selected as a Hero of the Horn.

Maybe I'm wrong. Gonzo is a Hero, and he's clearly a Darkfriend.

I kid, I kid. :D

SauceyBlueConfetti
04-15-2012, 08:13 PM
http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php
Entry 2.


Oops, those links are funny. http://www.theoryland.com/wheel-of-time-interview-search.php Click on balefire and scroll down a tad.

There is also mention that if the balefire is weak enough, the DO can still grab a soul and reincarnate it.

Not sure how that supports your wolf death comments?

Grig
04-15-2012, 09:05 PM
I don't see how Farstrider can be tied to the Horn. Wouldn't it make sense that in some way the Heroes were akin to ta'veren in their purpose? Darkfriends can't be ta'veren, so it would seem to me (without any corroborating evidence or support, I admit) unlikely that a darkfriend would be selected as a Hero of the Horn.

How is this a problem? Farstrider was not a Darkfriend. Are you confusing him with the different Malkieri that was a Darkfriend and betrayed the nation? The one Farstrider captured and became famous for doing so? Cowin something or other, I think.

Edynol
04-15-2012, 09:14 PM
Not sure how that supports your wolf death comments?

Wasn't meant to, someone asked where it was said that balefire didn't remove someone permanently from the pattern. Also, I am not saying my thought is correct or not, just looking for solid evidence against it. Just because someone in the book says its that way, it doesn't always make it true, and I was using balefire as an example of this.

And to fdf, yes, darkfriends can be ta'veren if it fulfills the patterns plans. It is highly unlikely, but still possible. Also, it was never confirmed that he was a darkfriend. Maybe he did some things he wasn't proud of, something bad, maybe, but that doesn't make him a darkfriend. Not saying he wasn't, just saying there's no proof that he was. He was a borderlander, after all. Maybe he ran from a fight and abandoned his men or something, which a borderlander would concider one the lowest, dirtiest things one can do short of betrayal.

fdsaf3
04-15-2012, 10:10 PM
I have no idea what I was talking about in my last post. That'll teach me to post when my brain is dead from writing my thesis all weekend. Feel free to ignore.

The Unreasoner
04-15-2012, 11:31 PM
I usually hate these threads, mainly because too many people forget that the Hero-candidate may already be a Hero, simply one spun out.

The real question is much harder: who has made a 'new' contribution? Hurin is possible, so is Verin, IMO. But I would be very surprised if Mat or Moiraine was merely a 'candidate'.

Seth Baker
04-15-2012, 11:59 PM
I have no indication that they recognized Perrin or Mat. Mat blew the horn so they are bound to him, of course they'll know he's the horn sounder. And Perrin was right there holding the banner, so duh, he must be the bannerman. And when Artur was talking to Hurin, maybe he was also talking to everyone else since they were all in listening distance.

As for Hopper, I don't think so, but I could be wrong. Though that does lead to a question. If you die in TAR, is that akin to being balefired, as in you are cut out of the pattern, but not totally gone? Remember even those who are balefire aren't completely dead and out of the pattern forever, they can still be woven back in the future, just means the DO can't snatch em and such.

Yeah - they ignored the two ta'veren who were leading the group, with Rand, and addressed the guy who was following them?

I'm DEFINITELY with the other guy on this. Perrin and Mat fit hero archetypes that are present in mythology from all over. Just as Birgitte is always the archer, Mat and Perrin were written as god-heroes every bit as much as the Dragon himself. That seems, to me, to have been quite clearly intentional.

Weird Harold
04-16-2012, 12:27 AM
Well some said the same thing about balefire in the book, but then RJ said otherwise. Yes, it takes them out of the pattern, but eventually they will be woven back in. So I think its safe to assume that Hopper could have been mistaken as well.
There is a difference between Moiraine's(?) assertion that death by Balefire is permanent and complete and the assertions of Birgitte and Hopper that death in T'A'R, for those who live in T'A'R, is permanent and final.

In Moiriane's case, she is sating an assumption from the viewpoint of a mortal who has no direct experience of the afterlife/T'A'R.

In Hopper's case, (and Birgitte's case, iirc,) the assertion is made by one who lives in T'A'R with all the memories of all lives lived, incarnate and in T'A'R. Wolves live partially in T'A'R snd share a kind of species memory that goes back Turnings, demonstrably as far as the last Wolf-brothers. They would remember a wolf being reborn after dying in T'A'R.

It may be that a wolf's soul is recycled, but the personality and memories are definitely lost forever.

GonzoTheGreat
04-16-2012, 05:03 AM
Wasn't meant to, someone asked where it was said that balefire didn't remove someone permanently from the pattern. Also, I am not saying my thought is correct or not, just looking for solid evidence against it. Just because someone in the book says its that way, it doesn't always make it true, and I was using balefire as an example of this.
I think that SBC was asking where in the books anyone said that balefire removed you permanently from the Pattern.

Well some said the same thing about balefire in the book, but then RJ said otherwise.
The closest I could come is a remark by the DO, in LOC, but I would be very hesitant to believe his propaganda.

Edynol
04-16-2012, 08:40 AM
Moiraine, in book 4 I think, when Rand used it on the darkhound. She said it removed the target from the pattern. And 99% of people who read the series thought that meant perma-death, including you I'll wager, though most won't admit erring. I believed it myself until RJ said otherwise.

GonzoTheGreat
04-16-2012, 08:57 AM
It was book 5, but you did have the right scene.
"Sometimes it is necessary to do that which is forbidden." If she was flustered, it did not show in her voice. "When anything is destroyed with balefire, it ceases to exist before the moment of its destruction, like a thread that burns away from where the flame touched it. The greater the power of the balefire, the further back in time it ceases to exist. The strongest I can manage will remove only a few seconds from the Pattern. You are much stronger. Very much so."
"But if it doesn't exist before you destroy it..." Rand raked fingers through his hair in confusion.
"You begin to see the problems, the dangers? Mat remembers seeing one of the Darkhounds chew through the door, but there is no opening, now. If it had slavered on him as much as he remembers, he would have been dead before I could reach him. For as far back as you destroyed the creature, whatever it did during that time no longer happened. Only the memories remain, for those who saw or experienced it. Only what it did before is real, now. A few tooth holes in the door, and one drop of saliva on Mat's arm."
"That sounds just fine to me," he told her. "Mat's alive because of it."
"It is terrible, Rand." An urgent note entered her, voice. "Why do you think even the Forsaken feared to use it? Think of the effect on the Pattern of a single thread, one man, removed from hours, or days, that have already been woven, like one thread picked partly out of a piece of cloth. Fragments of manuscripts remaining from the War of Power say several entire cities were destroyed with balefire before both sides realized the dangers. Hundreds of thousands of threads pulled from the Pattern, gone for days already past; whatever those people had done, now no longer had been done, and neither had what others had done because of their actions. The memories remained, but not the actions. The ripples were incalculable. The Pattern itself nearly unraveled. It could have been the destruction of everything. World, time, Creation itself."
I can remember that we had big discussions on whether or not this was a final death, but I have no idea anymore what position I had in that debate. Probably the right one, and one no one else (including possibly RJ) agreed with.

In hindsight, it is obvious that Moiraine is only talking the effects on the living and on ordinary reality. She does not say that someone who has been hit by balefire can't be reborn.

Edynol
04-16-2012, 09:25 AM
No, she doesn't say it, but most people thought it. See up to that point, we all knew that when one dies normally, their souls are recycled. And from seeing Birgitte and others in TAR, we see that even though they are dead, they are still a part of the pattern, not just because they are bound to the horn. Hopper wasn't bound to the horn when he died, after all. So from all that, we assume that even when one dies, they are still part of the pattern.

But then comes balefire, removing their thread from the pattern, beyond the reach of the DO himself. Whoever says that at first they didn't think that meant perma-death I'm gonna right out call a liar or just plain dumb for believing the opposite despite the only info we had at the time.

SauceyBlueConfetti
04-16-2012, 09:43 AM
There is a difference between Moiraine's(?) assertion that death by Balefire is permanent and complete and the assertions of Birgitte and Hopper that death in T'A'R, for those who live in T'A'R, is permanent and final.

In Moiriane's case, she is sating an assumption from the viewpoint of a mortal who has no direct experience of the afterlife/T'A'R.

In Hopper's case, (and Birgitte's case, iirc,) the assertion is made by one who lives in T'A'R with all the memories of all lives lived, incarnate and in T'A'R. Wolves live partially in T'A'R snd share a kind of species memory that goes back Turnings, demonstrably as far as the last Wolf-brothers. They would remember a wolf being reborn after dying in T'A'R.

It may be that a wolf's soul is recycled, but the personality and memories are definitely lost forever.

This, exactly.

I wasn't getting how a balefire quote by RJ would support the idea that what Hopper said, repeatedly, was incorrect.

Edynol
04-16-2012, 10:08 AM
Because RJ said that repeatedly through out the series people said things that weren't exactly true or accurate, even though they believed they were. So you say that if a wolf soul is rewoven back into the pattern, that the wolves would recognize that soul from their memories and such. There is no evidence of this, since all their memories are essentially the same memory one wolf's soul wouldn't differentiate from any other wolf's, past or present, until they introduced themselves or whatever.

Also, going back on topic here, if Hopper was right and in fact they can recognize a wolf soul that gets spun back in, wouldn't it be the same for wolfbrothers? I think its safe to say talents like those are just like souls of those who can channel. If you are a wolfbrother, you will always be a wolfbrother every time you are reborn. Just like if you're a channeler in a previous life, you will be a channeler in the next. So if all this is true, then it is obvious Perrin isn't currently a Hero of the Horn because the wolves would have recognized him in the dream.

And also, there hasn't been a wolfbrother since way back in the beginning ages before heroes of the horn even existed. So I see it as highly unlikely Perrin's soul is tied to the horn.

Weird Harold
04-16-2012, 04:35 PM
And also, there hasn't been a wolfbrother since way back in the beginning ages before heroes of the horn even existed. So I see it as highly unlikely Perrin's soul is tied to the horn.

What gives you the impression that HotH haven't existed as long -- or longer -- than wolf-brothers?

It may not have been known as "the Horn of Valere" but it and the Heroes have existed since the Wheel was created. The Heroes are one of the Wheel's primary corrective methods and thus integral to the design of the WoT.

Edynol
04-16-2012, 04:54 PM
Because of the forms they take. Like Birggitte has had many lives before and since being Birggitte Silverbow, but when she dies and goes back to TAR, she is Birggitte. So why not be one of their earlier lives? No proof they have been around since the beginning.

Weird Harold
04-16-2012, 05:47 PM
Because of the forms they take. Like Birggitte has had many lives before and since being Birggitte Silverbow, but when she dies and goes back to TAR, she is Birggitte. So why not be one of their earlier lives? No proof they have been around since the beginning.
Birgitte remembers many lives before being Birgitte Silverbow, but there's no evidence of any incarnation after Birgitte.

As best as anyone has been able to determine, HotH are known by their last, most recent, incarnation.

Birgitte's memories went back past one Turning; RJ has said there is nothing different about this Turning; RJ has said the HotH are a corrective mechanism of the Wheel. All are evidence that the Horn and Heroes are an integral part of the Wheel and have always existed.

PS: I know of no evidence that the Horn/HotH are "new things" rather than "Old things come again."

GonzoTheGreat
04-17-2012, 04:49 AM
According to RJ, the Horn was made in a previous Age. Which of course raises the question: were the Heroes bound to the Horn before the Horn was made?

Nazbaque
04-17-2012, 05:53 AM
Heroes have always been there but the Horn might not have. It might be simply something that is made, destroyed, then made again and destroyed again on and on. Maybe the current Horn will be destroyed when Mat dies.

GonzoTheGreat
04-17-2012, 05:59 AM
So that's what Valan Luca is for!
His circus elephant will accidentally step on the Horn during the funeral procession. It is so obvious now that you've explained it.

Nazbaque
04-17-2012, 07:28 AM
Yeah I seem to have something of a talent there. Explaining completely obvious things so even you understand. If only I could make a profit with it.

Weird Harold
04-17-2012, 03:04 PM
According to RJ, the Horn was made in a previous Age. Which of course raises the question: were the Heroes bound to the Horn before the Horn was made?

More bound to the Pattern. The Horn gets remade when the script calls for the "gathering of heroes" by a horn and lost or destroyed when the script calls for some other method of calling the heroes to battle.

Nearly all cultures/religions have some analog of the Heroes, but only a few specify a particular means of calling for supernatural rescue; the Heroes of the Horn 'are' the remnants/precursors of all those myths.

SauceyBlueConfetti
04-17-2012, 04:22 PM
So that's what Valan Luca is for!
His circus elephant will accidentally step on the Horn during the funeral procession. It is so obvious now that you've explained it.

I smell a theorrrrrrry !!!!! :D:p

SauceyBlueConfetti
04-17-2012, 04:30 PM
I smell a theorrrrrrry !!!!! :D:p

I am still sitting here giggling. I may have to add the elephant to my signature.

Crispin's Crispian
04-19-2012, 03:25 PM
So you say that if a wolf soul is rewoven back into the pattern, that the wolves would recognize that soul from their memories and such. There is no evidence of this, since all their memories are essentially the same memory one wolf's soul wouldn't differentiate from any other wolf's, past or present, until they introduced themselves or whatever.

Are Heroes in Tel'aran'rhiod still part of the Pattern? Or are they spun into the Pattern when their time comes?

Similarly, when a person dies, is his/her thread woven out of the Pattern only to be rewoven into it when reincarnated?

I always think of Heroes and wolves as dying just the same as everyone else, but they can remember the lives they lived and have a consciousness in the Dream World. The difference between Heroes and wolves is that Heroes are eventually spun back in as the Pattern needs them, but wolves are not. Right? When wolves die then float around Tel'aran'rhiod, are they ever reincarnated?

Perrin isn't currently a Hero of the Horn because the wolves would have recognized him in the dream.I don't think so. Remember the scene when Birgitte is talking to Perrin at the Tower of Ghenji? Hopper doesn't see Birgitte at all.

And from seeing Birgitte and others in TAR, we see that even though they are dead, they are still a part of the pattern, not just because they are bound to the horn. Hopper wasn't bound to the horn when he died, after all. So from all that, we assume that even when one dies, they are still part of the pattern.
Are they?

But then comes balefire, removing their thread from the pattern, beyond the reach of the DO himself. Whoever says that at first they didn't think that meant perma-death I'm gonna right out call a liar or just plain dumb for believing the opposite despite the only info we had at the time.
I don't recall what I thought at the time, but the important thing about balefire is that it burns a thread backward. I think of balefire like any other death, except that your existence ceases even before your death, thus your actions are undone. Balefire does nothing to the soul, only to the thread as it has been currently woven. Once a person dies, the thread is removed from the Pattern regardless of the method.

OK, some of this is me making stuff up as I'm going along, but it's beginning to make more sense. The Dream World is a reflection of the Pattern world, not a part of it.

Edynol
04-19-2012, 03:45 PM
Heroes I think are still part of the pattern when they die because of the fact they are in TAR. No others go there when they die, they go into the void until they are spun back out. Otherwise, when a forsaken, or anyone else for that matter is BFed, or not brought back by the DO, they'd end up in TAR and another forsaken could just there and pop them out like Mog did to Birgitte.

That's my assumption is that Heroes are still part of the pattern when they die.

Crispin's Crispian
04-19-2012, 05:18 PM
Heroes I think are still part of the pattern when they die because of the fact they are in TAR. No others go there when they die, they go into the void until they are spun back out. Otherwise, when a forsaken, or anyone else for that matter is BFed, or not brought back by the DO, they'd end up in TAR and another forsaken could just there and pop them out like Mog did to Birgitte.

That's my assumption is that Heroes are still part of the pattern when they die.
Hopper's comment (quoted previously) about Perrin's potential final death in Tel'aran'rhiod may speak to my point, though. I'll have to dig it up, but I believe there's an RJ quote where he debunks the idea that all souls are waiting in the Dream World (just hidden and consciousness-less). That makes my case a little more difficult.

But whatever the mechanism, there's something with souls and TAR that hasn't yet been entirely revealed. And I'm not 100% convinced that TAR is really part of the Pattern, proper.

Edynol
04-19-2012, 05:42 PM
Actually, I think I remember someone in the books saying TAR is part of the pattern, that it is actually the epicenter of it. There are all these parallel and mirror worlds, but TAR is the only constant as it is connected to every world, even those we don't know about. I think Verin said it to Eggy before the girls went to Tear hunting the BA.

Davian93
04-19-2012, 05:56 PM
Actually, I think I remember someone in the books saying TAR is part of the pattern, that it is actually the epicenter of it. There are all these parallel and mirror worlds, but TAR is the only constant as it is connected to every world, even those we don't know about. I think Verin said it to Eggy before the girls went to Tear hunting the BA.

Here you go:


TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 21 - A World of Dreams
Verin stared at her as if she were deliberately being dense. "Nothing? Of course it has something to do with it, child. The point is that there is a third constant besides the Creator and the Dark One. There is a world that lies within each of these others, inside all of them at the same time. Or perhaps surrounding them. Writers in the Age of Legends called it Tel'aran'rhiod, "the Unseen World." Perhaps "the World of Dreams" is a better translation. Many people - ordinary folk who could not think of channeling - sometimes glimpse Tel'aran'rhiod in their dreams, and even catch glimmers of these other worlds through it. Think of some of the peculiar things you have seen in your dreams. But a Dreamer, child - a true Dreamer - can enter Tel'aran'rhiod."

Edynol
04-19-2012, 06:10 PM
Yeah that. BTW, I know this may sound newbish, but how do you get quotes like that from the books? I read these google e-books, but you can't copy/paste from them.

Weird Harold
04-19-2012, 07:45 PM
Yeah that. BTW, I know this may sound newbish, but how do you get quotes like that from the books? I read these google e-books, but you can't copy/paste from them.
http://theoryland.com/search.php

Others have non-google e-books that we can copy&paste from, but if you can find a unique phrase to identify a paragraph to C&P, then the theoryland search results are pretty easy.

Edynol
04-19-2012, 07:51 PM
Eh. Gotta be a premium member.

Weird Harold
04-19-2012, 09:00 PM
Eh. Gotta be a premium member.
Most of the quotemasters are :D