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Tomp
04-15-2012, 06:30 AM
As a complement to the competent villain thread.

Who is the most incompetent hero/good guy (or good gal)?

And why do you think so?

Plz no hate posts here. There are a lot of other threads for that.

GonzoTheGreat
04-15-2012, 06:55 AM
I think that Elaida would win this competition.
Perrin tried for a while (though he never reached Elaida's level), but he seems to have given up on incompetence again. The quitter.

Edynol
04-15-2012, 07:46 AM
Elaida I don't consider a hero. She is more a villain. If all her intentions were pure, I would say differently, but she actively pursued jealousy and lust for power. Sure she thought her reasons were just and that she was entitled, but her motives were far from pure.

Having said that, I think Gawyn is the most incompetent hero. I mean, the only think I can remember him doing right was protecting Eggy when she was in TAR with Mesa. Otherwise he just fumbled everything up.

Kimon
04-15-2012, 10:27 AM
Elaida I don't consider a hero. She is more a villain. If all her intentions were pure, I would say differently, but she actively pursued jealousy and lust for power. Sure she thought her reasons were just and that she was entitled, but her motives were far from pure.

Having said that, I think Gawyn is the most incompetent hero. I mean, the only think I can remember him doing right was protecting Eggy when she was in TAR with Mesa. Otherwise he just fumbled everything up.

Gawyn did get Min, Siuan, and Leane out of Tar Valon after the coup. Of course, one might have wished that he would have had the foresight to realize that if Min is supporting Siuan that Egwene and Elayne obviously were too, thus making his decision to side with Elaida incredibly stupid. Even with his role in helping Min, which is at least somewhat exculpatory, he would be a good choice for most incompetent, but only if one considers him a hero, which is highly debatable. Frankly I think this distinction still needs to go to Perrin. He is clearly a hero, and his intentions are always noble, but he's an idiot.

Edynol
04-15-2012, 10:39 AM
No way. Perrin has done a lot.
He lead the TR to victory and chased off the Children and raised his own army pretty much from scratch.

Lead the attack that all but destroyed the Shaido.

Defeated Slayer and got rid of the Dreamspike and showed Eggy what a noob she was in TAR in the process.

Saved the Children from getting slaughtered and brought them to their side in the process.

Got the best of the deal with Elaine in becoming Lord of TR.

Helped craft the 1st power-wrought weapon made in ages.

And those are just off the top of my head. He is way way way way far from incompetent.

Kimon
04-15-2012, 11:05 AM
No way. Perrin has done a lot.
He lead the TR to victory and chased off the Children and raised his own army pretty much from scratch.

Lead the attack that all but destroyed the Shaido.

Defeated Slayer and got rid of the Dreamspike and showed Eggy what a noob she was in TAR in the process.

Saved the Children from getting slaughtered and brought them to their side in the process.

Got the best of the deal with Elaine in becoming Lord of TR.

Helped craft the 1st power-wrought weapon made in ages.

And those are just off the top of my head. He is way way way way far from incompetent.

The issue isn't whether he has done a lot, you could make a similar list for Gawyn:

He slew two blademasters during the coup.

He got Min out of the Tower after the coup.

He led the Younglings, turning them into a formidable fighting force.

He saved the stragglers from the Tower and brought them to safety after their disaster at the Wells.

He saves Egwene from the Bloodknive assassins.


These are fine accomplishments, some of which even make a case for his competency, yet they cannot wash away some truly stupid decisions, most notably his siding with Elaida and his irrational hatred/jealousy of the Dragon.

As for Perrin, let's examine your points.

He lead the TR to victory and chased off the Children and raised his own army pretty much from scratch.

He definitely gets credit for this, but he was foolish enough to offer to turn himself over to the Children in exchange for help. They didn't do anything, but what if Bornhold had actually helped?

Lead the attack that all but destroyed the Shaido.

Granted.

Defeated Slayer and got rid of the Dreamspike and showed Eggy what a noob she was in TAR in the process.

Granted.

Saved the Children from getting slaughtered and brought them to their side in the process.

Saving Galad perhaps barely tips this from being incredibly foolish, to perhaps merely foolish, but necessary.

Got the best of the deal with Elaine in becoming Lord of TR.

Elayne deftly outmaneuvered him here, albeit in part because Perrin clearly was quite happy to give up his claim of making the Two Rivers independent. Nonetheless, this one demonstrates Elayne's competency more than Perrin's.

Helped craft the 1st power-wrought weapon made in ages.

This is more Neald than Perrin.


You left off the biggest mistake - he didn't put down Masema even after both his own nose and the constant warnings of the Wise Ones told him the man was rabid and a danger to the Dragon. Faile shouldn't have had to take care of this, but if she hadn't the Prophet would still be alive.

Edynol
04-15-2012, 11:48 AM
Gawyn didn't help anyone escape the tower, they did that on their own. All he did was choose not to turn them in when he caught them on their way out of TV. Nothing even remotely heroic about that.

And so he bested two blademasters, that just shows he's a good swordsman, not a hero. And I still recall him and his brother both getting bested at the same time by a weakened farmboy with hardly any training or fighting experience. If anything, that just shows it doesn't take much to be a blademaster.
Elayne deftly outmaneuvered him here, albeit in part because Perrin clearly was quite happy to give up his claim of making the Two Rivers independent. Nonetheless, this one demonstrates Elayne's competency more than Perrin's.
And I don't see how Elaine outmaneuvered him. He didn't want much to begin with, he just started high to see what she was about and ended up getting way more than what he really wanted. I mean, Elaine really didn't much of anything. Much of what she got was pretty much what she already had, nothing really changed for her other than getting a longer trade route which benefits TR just as much and a connection to Saldea while TR also go the addition of receiving the queen's aid if they need it. And they don't even have to pay any taxes! All the while Perring becomes Lord of TR, get's much higher status than he really even wants, his home stay his home, plus much more. He won't just be leading over EF, but Watch Hill and the other towns as well.
Saving Galad perhaps barely tips this from being incredibly foolish, to perhaps merely foolish, but necessary.
That wasn't foolish, that was smart. He knew that if he went against Galad or allowed him to get killed when he could prevent it that it would push Morgase away, who also helped him with Elaine. And he was right about needing them in the last battle and arranged to have his sentence postponed until after TG, if they survived. And not only that, he befriended Galad and got a slap on the wrist for a sentence. Risky? Yes, but not foolish. And he stayed true to himself by doing the right thing.
This is more Neald than Perrin.
Perrin made the hammer, Neald just stepped in and channeled with the aid of others. Perrin at least knew he was making a hammer, Neald just acted on a feeling and didn'
t really know what he was doing.
You left off the biggest mistake - he didn't put down Masema even after both his own nose and the constant warnings of the Wise Ones told him the man was rabid and a danger to the Dragon. Faile shouldn't have had to take care of this, but if she hadn't the Prophet would still be alive.
I'll give you that, I too think he should have had him dealt with way sooner. And I was hoping for a big Perrin-Masema showdown rather than him being ganked by Faile. lol.

Kimon
04-15-2012, 12:07 PM
Gawyn didn't help anyone escape the tower, they did that on their own. All he did was choose not to turn them in when he caught them on their way out of TV. Nothing even remotely heroic about that.

Reread the chapter. They wouldn't have gotten out of the city without his help.

And so he bested two blademasters, that just shows he's a good swordsman, not a hero. And I still recall him and his brother both getting bested at the same time by a weakened farmboy with hardly any training or fighting experience. If anything, that just shows it doesn't take much to be a blademaster.

This is, nonetheless, a form of competency, albeit with a sword. And losing to Mat is nothing to be ashamed of, he is after all one of the most competent of all the heroes - along with Rand, Min, Moiraine, and Verin.

And I don't see how Elaine outmaneuvered him. He didn't want much to begin with, he just started high to see what she was about and ended up getting way more than what he really wanted. I mean, Elaine really didn't much of anything. Much of what she got was pretty much what she already had, nothing really changed for her other than getting a longer trade route which benefits TR just as much and a connection to Saldea while TR also go the addition of receiving the queen's aid if they need it. And they don't even have to pay any taxes! All the while Perring becomes Lord of TR, get's much higher status than he really even wants, his home stay his home, plus much more. He won't just be leading over EF, but Watch Hill and the other towns as well.

He went into that meeting with the intent of capitulating to her demands, as he clearly recognized her as his lawful sovereign, and thus recognized that the Two Rivers was part of Andor. Which is fine, but nothing in that encounter demonstrated his competency, it instead demonstrated his lack of personal ambition. Had he actually wanted an independent Two Rivers, all he need have done was point out that Andor had failed to defend them against the Whitecloaks, who had invaded their lands and abused and harassed their people. Andor's failure to defend against the Trolloc invasion is much more forgivable, considering that they came by Waygate, the failure to stop the Whitecloak incursions is much less forgivable.

That wasn't foolish, that was smart. He knew that if he went against Galad or allowed him to get killed when he could prevent it that it would push Morgase away, who also helped him with Elaine. And he was right about needing them in the last battle and arranged to have his sentence postponed until after TG, if they survived. And not only that, he befriended Galad and got a slap on the wrist for a sentence. Risky? Yes, but not foolish. And he stayed true to himself by doing the right thing.

The Whitecloaks are just as rabid as Masema. But for the fact that Galad needed to be saved, I'd have considered his failure to destroy them as great an error as his failure to kill Masema.

Perrin made the hammer, Neald just stepped in and channeled with the aid of others. Perrin at least knew he was making a hammer, Neald just acted on a feeling and didn'
t really know what he was doing.

Perrin made a hammar. Neald made it a power-wrought weapon. Without Neald it's just another hammar.

Edynol
04-15-2012, 12:32 PM
Reread the chapter. They wouldn't have gotten out of the city without his help.

We don't know that. Tons of others escaped the city just fine without any aid, and they most likely would have as well. Again, he didn't do much but write them a note they probably didn't even need in the first place.

This is, nonetheless, a form of competency, albeit with a sword. And losing to Mat is nothing to be ashamed of, he is after all one of the most competent of all the heroes - along with Rand, Min, Moiraine, and Verin.

Now he is, yes. But back in book 3 he was, he was still pretty green and hadn't done much fighting. he cut a guy with the dagger and blew the horn, but other than that, he didn't do all that much. Mat is by far my favorite character, but when you think about it, he didn't really do much and the 1st two books. So yeah, him besting the two best students with no training and barely able to even stand on his feet all the while, yeah, not something Gawyn or Galad could ever be proud of.

He went into that meeting with the intent of capitulating to her demands, as he clearly recognized her as his lawful sovereign, and thus recognized that the Two Rivers was part of Andor. Which is fine, but nothing in that encounter demonstrated his competency, it instead demonstrated his lack of personal ambition. Had he actually wanted an independent Two Rivers, all he need have done was point out that Andor had failed to defend them against the Whitecloaks, who had invaded their lands and abused and harassed their people. Andor's failure to defend against the Trolloc invasion is much more forgivable, considering that they came by Waygate, the failure to stop the Whitecloak incursions is much less forgivable.

So? That says nothing about his incompetence. He never claimed to be a great negotiator. If anything, that was Failes failing, she's the noble of the two who should know about that sort of stuff. He still walked away gaining a lot more than Elaine did, which is what really counts.


The Whitecloaks are just as rabid as Masema. But for the fact that Galad needed to be saved, I'd have considered his failure to destroy them as great an error as his failure to kill Masema.

No they aren't. Over-zealous? Yes, but most of them are not delusional. I mean, look at Dain Bornhald, he killed his best friends because he knew killing Perrin would be wrong after all he did for them. yes, some of the children might be delusional and won't ever change, but the majority are beginning to see things Galad's way and rethink their beliefs of what exactly is right and wrong. You can't judge a whole organization by the mistakes of a few bad eggs.



Perrin made a hammar. Neald made it a power-wrought weapon. Without Neald it's just another hammar.
You cannot recreate a dead warder no matter how much power you have. XD Just kidding. lol.

But like I said before, Neald didn't know what he was doing. He could have just as easily turned the hammer into molten lava and burned Perrin's hands off. Even after the deed was done he couldn't explain it. Someone else had to explain what he had done.

Boli
04-16-2012, 04:39 AM
Most incompetent hero?

Siuan easily; you could argue that she planned a lot of it and her and Moirane did the best they could to deal with the DR but lets look at the facts

- She was stilled
- She lost Amerlynhood
- She regained the power (thanks to Nyneave) but much less than before.
- She was advisor to Egwene... who dumped her shortley after getting the WH back.
- She was instrumental in causing the breaking of the tower; moreso than Eladia as she fostered the distrust betwene the Ajah's to cement her own position

In fact her only saving grace is she will not be thought of as the "Worst Amerlyn"... that honour goes to Eladia.

GonzoTheGreat
04-16-2012, 04:48 AM
Then again, for about a decade, Siuan was Amyrlin. During all that time (and the decade before) she was well aware of the existence of the Black Ajah. Yet she never seems to have tried to figure out a way of getting rid of them.
I think that too should be considered as part of her record.

finnssss
04-16-2012, 07:52 AM
Elayne.

Talk about having everything handed to her on a silver platter.

If Rand doesn't "hold" the Throne of Andor for her, what does it look like when she arrives back there?
Someone else most likely would of already been Queen and she wouldn't of been returning to an "empty" castle.

She has all but usurped the power of the Aes Sedai and the Amrylin Seat. First with the terrible deal she made with the Seafolk on their behalf and now with what she's trying to do with the Kin.

Rand gave her the Throne of Cairhien....nuff said.
Perrin, almost single-handedly, makes her the most powerful single ruler in Randland, delivering the Two Rivers, Mayene, Ghealdan and a major tie to Saldaea.

Now Mat, who delivered the Bowl of the Winds for her, now hands her the most powerful non-One Power related weapons in the world.

How does she repay Perrin and Mat for all this...treats them like dirt to be scrapped off her embroidered silk slippers.


Seriously, besides saving Birgitte and discovering that she can make ter'angreal, what has she accomplished on her own?

I'm trying not to make this a hate post but damn is that hard to do ;)

GonzoTheGreat
04-16-2012, 08:00 AM
Seriously, besides saving Birgitte and discovering that she can make ter'angreal, what has she accomplished on her own?
She made friends with Aviendha, which saves Rand (the Saviour of the Universe to be) a whole bunch of trouble he really can do without.

Edynol
04-16-2012, 08:14 AM
Wasn't she also the one who found the Bowl of the Winds in TAR? Or was that Nyn? I forget. She also did the weave that bonded her, Ave, and Min to Rand, which I think is the main thing that kept Rand from going totally over the edge. She also created the a'dam that held Mogy.

Also, she didn't treat Mat and Perrin like dirt when they came to see her. She actually treated Mat as a friend before and after the negotiations. As for Perrin, can you really blame her for being ticked at first? She never really knew Perrin all that well and then he starts waving the Manetheren banner and stuff and you know how rumors can go. I think she showed remarkable restraint by not just going head on into war with him and his army.

GonzoTheGreat
04-16-2012, 11:38 AM
I know how rumours can go, but more importantly: so does she. She also knows that the Dragon Reborn (a fellow with whom she is personally acquainted, I think) is supposed to bring a lot of change.
So she could also have sat down with Perrin and worked out a way of limiting the damage and bringing as much advantage as possible to the two of them without all those threats.

Edynol
04-16-2012, 11:52 AM
Yes, she could have. But again, she doesn't know Perrin all that well. remember that scene between Perrin and Rand they set up where they acted out a huge fight? Elaine was never let in on that and so of course stemming from that news reaching her she couldn't be sure what his true intentions were or where his loyalties lied. So she had to come out swinging strong so this potential usurper would know she means business. Any queen who did less in such a situation could be presumed as weak, and she wasn't about to let herself be seen that way. What she did there was very smart.

GonzoTheGreat
04-16-2012, 12:01 PM
She could also have found herself looking dead, if things had gone just a little bit differently. And even if she had survived a fight with a strong ta'veren, risking yet another civil war in Andor on the eve of Tarmon Gai'don doesn't really seem like the kind of thing a prudent ruler would do if it can be avoided.

She could have started with a load of Aes Sedai platitudes, to feel Perrin out and determine what he was actually up to.
Afterwards, if anyone had tried to make trouble over it, she could always say that what Perrin did had been done on Rand's orders and with her permission (true, though those orders were rather vague, and her permission consisted of not trying to object to things she didn't know about at the time) and invite all complainers to either accept it or openly come out for the Shadow.

She could have come out of it leaving the impression that she had been party to the whole thing right from the start. In that way, she could actually have laid the Manetheren problem to rest for once and for all, instead of leaving it as a danger for her descendants.

Edynol
04-16-2012, 12:33 PM
No offense, but she had the Kin, the Band, and the Aiel resting right outside her city. Perrin and his army would have been slaughtered. Also, with no wolves in the city or anywhere close by to come to his aid, Elaine would have nuked him with the OP if he so much as tried anything. And if she couldn't, Birgy was right there and she is more than capable of dispatching both Perrin and Faile. And that is without the warder bond, which makes her even deadlier.

Sorry, I really do like Perrin way more than Elaine, but in this instance Elaine did everything right from the position she was in. Perrin knew this as well, which is why he didn't retaliate against her. He too did exactly the right thing, imo.

Jasin Natael
04-16-2012, 02:48 PM
No offense, but she had the Kin, the Band, and the Aiel resting right outside her city. Perrin and his army would have been slaughtered. Also, with no wolves in the city or anywhere close by to come to his aid, Elaine would have nuked him with the OP if he so much as tried anything. And if she couldn't, Birgy was right there and she is more than capable of dispatching both Perrin and Faile. And that is without the warder bond, which makes her even deadlier.

Sorry, I really do like Perrin way more than Elaine, but in this instance Elaine did everything right from the position she was in. Perrin knew this as well, which is why he didn't retaliate against her. He too did exactly the right thing, imo.

Well, there's the whole 'using the one power as a weapon' thing. If she didn't use it on Arymilla's army, she wouldn't use it on Perrins. The kin don't fight.

The Band belongs to Mat. He might decide to help Perrin. And he's one of the most capable military commanders in the world, he could easily beat anything Andor has.

The Aiel aren't hers to command, they belong to Rand. They aren't there to defeat her enemies for her.

Edynol
04-16-2012, 03:02 PM
Well, there's the whole 'using the one power as a weapon' thing. If she didn't use it on Arymilla's army, she wouldn't use it on Perrins. The kin don't fight.

The Band belongs to Mat. He might decide to help Perrin. And he's one of the most capable military commanders in the world, he could easily beat anything Andor has.

The Aiel aren't hers to command, they belong to Rand. They aren't there to defeat her enemies for her.
You can use the OP to defend yourself. So yeah she could have.

The have never had a reason to fight, but it isn't said anywhere that they will not.'

The Band is actually hers to command as they were under contract. Also, during that time, Mat had already left to save Moiraine and wouldn't have been their to tell them otherwise.

And while the Aiel were not hers to command, since her rebirth in becoming Aves 1st sister, I think it's safe to assume they would concider her part of the Aiel as well. And also she a love of Rand's. They have no loyalty towards Perrin at all and would very likely help Elaine battle his army. I'd even go so far as to say that Gaul and the other aiel with Perrin would turn against him in this situation. He wouldn't win, ta'veren or not.

Jasin Natael
04-16-2012, 03:24 PM
Perrin has to attack her first. She's not bound by the oaths, but if she didn't use the power against Arymilla, she can't justify using it against Perrin politically. The Power can be used to defend a Sister or a Warder, not to kill someone politically inconvenient.

She can't use the Aiel. She can't use any forces not her own, the same way she couldn't bring Cairhienin in to secure her throne. The Kin aren't her personal army. If they didn't fight Arymilla, why fight Perrin? He's functionally no different, a Lord claiming a piece of Andor.

The Aiel didn't interfere with Arymilla. They won't fight Perrin. The Aiel with Perrin know he's still an ally of Rand.

The Band? Maybe. Win or lose, Andor's forces would be mauled, which Elayne can't afford this close to the Last Battle.

Edynol
04-16-2012, 03:58 PM
And Perrin likewise knows he can't risk Elaine for what it would do Rand or her forces, like with the Whitecloaks, cause it could mean defeat at the Last Battle. Also, when Elaine was kidnapped, it was done covertly and the others didn't know about. Only the few who knew what happened came to rescue her.

GonzoTheGreat
04-17-2012, 03:41 AM
The Band? Maybe.
Undoubtedly the Band would be willing to help Elayne hang the fathers of both Mat and Rand. After all, those were some of the foremost rebels, together with Egwene's parents (who would also be executed, if they did not die in the fighting, of course).

How would Elayne explain all that afterwards?
I really, really would like an answer to that. How would she explain to Rand that she had to hang his father because that fellow had dared fight against Trollocs without explicit leave from king Gaebril?

Edynol
04-17-2012, 08:09 AM
Well they probably wouldn't even be thinking about those people being part of Perrin's army. True, she would regret killing Perrin and his army later, but that's not what we are talking about. It isn't like Perrin and his army showed and announced that the families of The Dragon, the Amyrlin, and Mat Cauthon are with them.

The main point I am making is that it would have been very stupid for either of them to attack the other, but if it did happen, Elaine would come out on top, barring Perrin's Ta'veren-ness kicking into overdrive and having a huge natural earthquake happen and a stone from the ceiling happening to fall and squish Elaine, making her babies shoot out of her like a canon to fulfill Min's vision, before she can do anything.

Flinn Sedai
04-17-2012, 04:31 PM
I'm with fins.

Elayne is the single most incompetent hero in the story. Let's examine everything she has tried to do.

1) She hunted down the Black Ajah.

She walked right into their trap.
Mat saves her.

2) She interrogates the Black Ajah.

They laugh at her.
Moiraine completes the interrogation.

3) She tries to teach Rand about Saidin.

She gets completely manhandled.
Asmodean teaches Rand.

4) She hunts the Black Ajah (again).

Tanchico falls into civil war.
They give the male adam to the Seanchan, who end up using it on Rand.
The Black Ajah escapes.

5) She is looking for Salidar.

Nynaeve finds it for them.

6) She tries to hunt down a Forsaken (really has not learned her lesson).

A Hero of the Horn gets ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod.

7) She tries to create ter'angreal.

Her copies are about half effective.
Note: This is the height of her competence.

8) She tries to retrieve the Bowl of Winds, and us it to fix the weather.

She obtains it, then gives it away.
Then signs Aes Sedai into servitude.
She becomes the first person to ever sign away a portion of Andor's land.

9) She tries to get the throne of Andor.

She hires mercenaries, who turn on her.
She gets kidnapped.
Birgette saves her, and captures the opposition, effectively ending the war.

10) She tries to question the Black Ajah (again, seriously?)

She gets nearly killed.
She is saved by the Black Ajah, at the behest of her killer (again, seriously).
Birgette saves her again.

11) She tries to negotiate with Perrin.

She effectively signs away the entire Two Rivers.

12) She takes her entire army to try to convince Rand not to break the Seals.

Rand isn't going to listen to her anyways.
ANDOR BURNS.


I'm sorry, but there are no two ways about this. Elayne is completely incompetent. Everytime she tries to do something, it explodes in her face.

If I were Birgette, I'd tell her to just sit in a room and stand very still. Do not do anything. Ever.

Edynol
04-17-2012, 05:02 PM
3) She tries to teach Rand about Saidin.

She gets completely manhandled.
Asmodean teaches Rand.

an impossible task, not really a failing. And Egwynn was doing most of the teaching, so if it was a failing, it was hers.


6) She tries to hunt down a Forsaken (really has not learned her lesson).

A Hero of the Horn gets ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod.

Umm...That was 100% Nynaeve. Elain cleaned up her mess by saving Birgitte.

9) She tries to get the throne of Andor.

She hires mercenaries, who turn on her.
She gets kidnapped.
Birgette saves her, and captures the opposition, effectively ending the war.

She can't read minds, can't always know who will turn on you. As for the rest, yeah, that was stupid.

11) She tries to negotiate with Perrin.

She effectively signs away the entire Two Rivers.
But she gains ties to Saldea, Mayene, and Ghealdan. And she didn't lose the TR, it's still hers. If anything, she has gotten it back as now they will know they are part of Andor and who their queen is, unlike before when they didn't. At the worst, things stay the same as they are.

Also, the Fox Head copies she made saved Mat when he defeated the golum. And she is also the one who figured out what tghe bowl of the winds was for.

She also Bonded herself and the others to Rand, which was very clever of her to figure out. She also made the a'dam the held Moggy.

She also smacked the hell out of Eggy in Tear, which I found funny as hell. lol.

Flinn Sedai
04-17-2012, 05:38 PM
an impossible task, not really a failing. And Egwynn was doing most of the teaching, so if it was a failing, it was hers.

They're the ones who assigned themselves the task. It has the same problem that a lot of these things do. It reeks of arrogance that never really goes away. (Not going to elaborate, per rule 2.) Failing at something that is impossible is still failing. If it were the only thing she failed at, I'd concede the point.


Umm...That was 100% Nynaeve. Elain cleaned up her mess by saving Birgitte.

Fair enough. I was working from memory, and I just remembered her being involved in the situation. She had actually told Nynaeve not to involve Birgitte.

She can't read minds, can't always know who will turn on you. As for the rest, yeah, that was stupid.

Well, except that when she hired them she kept talking about how she was pretty sure they were going to turn on her. And then when they came to demand more money, she was going on about how they were going to turn on her. Then they turned on her.

But she gains ties to Saldea, Mayene, and Ghealdan. And she didn't lose the TR, it's still hers. If anything, she has gotten it back as now they will know they are part of Andor and who their queen is, unlike before when they didn't.

She gains ties to them, but it's Perrin. He was going to have them help her anyways. Moreover, that was Faile's suggestion. Not hers. She had that Alliance fall in her lap, against her wishes.

Moreoever, based on Avi's trip to the future, we have great indication that the Two Rivers are not part of Andor anymore. Which isn't particularly surprising, since Perrin doesn't have to pay taxes, essentially has autonomy, and is technically under Rand's rule, not hers. That last part was her contribution to the negotiations. That he not be under her authority. It was pretty skilled.

Also, the Fox Head copies she made saved Mat when he defeated the golum. And she is also the one who figured out what tghe bowl of the winds was for.

Elayne figured out that the Bowl had something to do with the weather was all. And that was based upon her looking into it, and seeing weather patterns. Figuring out what the Bowl did... that was the Windfinders.

And again, I acknowledged that she was somewhat competent with making ter'angreal. However, what you showed was Mat's competence with what she gave him. That's not her competency. It's his.

She also Bonded herself and the others to Rand, which was very clever of her to figure out. She also made the a'dam the held Moggy.

I don't see how the first demonstrates competency. She didn't invent the idea of bonding somebody. She was a little creative with the weave, certainly. I don't know if I'd call it competency, though. And as I said before, she's shown herself semi-competent at creating ter'angreal.

She also smacked the hell out of Eggy in Tear, which I found funny as hell. lol.

I think we can both agree on that :D

Edynol
04-17-2012, 06:00 PM
Okay lol. You make some good points. But I got one more. She herself may be incompetent, but she did a very good job in surrounding herself with competent people and charming them to compensate for her misgivings. I mean, she is still alive and queen of Andor. And Birgitte hasn't strangled her yet. lol. :D

Flinn Sedai
04-17-2012, 06:12 PM
Okay lol. You make some good points. But I got one more. She herself may be incompetent, but she did a very good job in surrounding herself with competent people and charming them to compensate for her misgivings. I mean, she is still alive and queen of Andor. And Birgitte hasn't strangled her yet. lol. :D

*prays to see it in AMoL*

David Selig
04-17-2012, 06:23 PM
1) Agreed

2)IIRC she wasn't ever involved in the interrogations "onscreen". It was Egwene and Nynaeve with the implication that Elayne had participated before, and they got the info they needed from Amico, so it was a success.

4) They did what they came for - stop the Lyandrin group from getting the male a'dam. It was Nynaeve's call to give it to Domon to throw in the sea, and it wasn't a bad idea anyway at the time.

7) No, most of her copies work perfectly, only a few (the twisted ring and the foxhead) work halfway. Plus she created some ter'angreal from scratch.

8)She found the Bowl and organised its usage to save countless lives. I'd say that's a pretty big success, who cares if the Aes Sedai have to teach the Windfiders compared to that...

9)Well, she won the Throne, didn't she? So some mercenaries turned on her - who cares, she had to take the risk because she didn't have enough soldiers otherwise. And it was Elayne's call to attack Arymilla's army after she was released from the BA, which led to winning the decisive battle.

10)Birgitte didn't save her, when she arrived, everything was over.

11)Elayne signed away something that wasn't hers to begin with, but in a way which allowed her to save face politically and kept some ties with it. Pretty good deal if you ask me, especially given that with the LB and the Seanchan threat she couldn't afford to go to war with Perrin.

12) It's not the entire army - half the Band is still in Andor, most probably other forces too.

Flinn Sedai
04-17-2012, 06:53 PM
I'll take a look at some of these later (once I have a bit more time). I'm just going to address the ones I can do from memory.

4) They did what they came for - stop the Lyandrin group from getting the male a'dam. It was Nynaeve's call to give it to Domon to throw in the sea, and it wasn't a bad idea anyway at the time.

I suppose you could argue that they didn't care if the Shadow got the male a'dam, so long as Liandrin didn't get it. That seems a bit silly, though. They kept Liandrin from getting it, and instead, Semirhage got it. I don't see that as a good thing.

7) No, most of her copies work perfectly, only a few (the twisted ring and the foxhead) work halfway. Plus she created some ter'angreal from scratch.

Invisibility ones are very limited in scope, and don't work very well. The a'dam work well, but those were the only ones she made that worked as desired. Everything else had caveats.

8)She found the Bowl and organised its usage to save countless lives. I'd say that's a pretty big success, who cares if the Aes Sedai have to teach the Windfiders compared to that...

They all found the bowl. She didn't contribute significantly to it. She did contribute significantly to giving it away, signing away part of Andor for the first time ever, and signing away Aes Sedai into essentially Slavery. Nobody thinks that was a good deal. Even Egwene saw how screwed up it was.

9)Well, she won the Throne, didn't she? So some mercenaries turned on her - who cares, she had to take the risk because she didn't have enough soldiers otherwise. And it was Elayne's call to attack Arymilla's army after she was released from the BA, which led to winning the decisive battle.

But the point is that she didn't win the throne. Birgitte did.

10)Birgitte didn't save her, when she arrived, everything was over.

Fair enough. All the credit goes to the Black Ajah, and her murderer.

11)Elayne signed away something that wasn't hers to begin with, but in a way which allowed her to save face politically and kept some ties with it. Pretty good deal if you ask me, especially given that with the LB and the Seanchan threat she couldn't afford to go to war with Perrin.

Except Perrin and Faile came in there saying they wanted to be completely under Andor control. Egwene was the one who negotiated them into autonomy. And again, she didn't keep ties with the Two Rivers. Faile and Perrin offered ties to Two Rivers. She distanced Andor from it.

It wasn't that the deal was bad for her. It's that she was so incompetent that she had a great deal offered to her, and she negotiated it down to a good deal.

Her choices weren't, "War with Perrin, or peace." Only in her mind was that the option. The choices were, "Lordship under the Queen, or Lordship under the Dragon." She negotiated them from the initial position, to the latter.

12) It's not the entire army - half the Band is still in Andor, most probably other forces too.

Umm... Andor was burning at the end of Towers of Midnight. Talmanes saw the letter, got up to go warn Andor, and saw it on fire. Andor was already attacked. There were forces left behind, but the bulk of the force went on an endeavour that is going to fail anyways.

The concern at the end was not about keeping the Shadow out. It was about making sure that the Dragons don't fall into their hands as well.

suttree
04-17-2012, 06:57 PM
1) Agreed

2)IIRC she wasn't ever involved in the interrogations "onscreen". It was Egwene and Nynaeve with the implication that Elayne had participated before, and they got the info they needed from Amico, so it was a success.

4) They did what they came for - stop the Lyandrin group from getting the male a'dam. It was Nynaeve's call to give it to Domon to throw in the sea, and it wasn't a bad idea anyway at the time.

7) No, most of her copies work perfectly, only a few (the twisted ring and the foxhead) work halfway. Plus she created some ter'angreal from scratch.

8)She found the Bowl and organised its usage to save countless lives. I'd say that's a pretty big success, who cares if the Aes Sedai have to teach the Windfiders compared to that...

9)Well, she won the Throne, didn't she? So some mercenaries turned on her - who cares, she had to take the risk because she didn't have enough soldiers otherwise. And it was Elayne's call to attack Arymilla's army after she was released from the BA, which led to winning the decisive battle.

10)Birgitte didn't save her, when she arrived, everything was over.

11)Elayne signed away something that wasn't hers to begin with, but in a way which allowed her to save face politically and kept some ties with it. Pretty good deal if you ask me, especially given that with the LB and the Seanchan threat she couldn't afford to go to war with Perrin.

12) It's not the entire army - half the Band is still in Andor, most probably other forces too.

Well said David. Honestly when people make posts like that I always wonder how they can twist things around to such an extent. I understand not liking a character but it takes a special type of willful ignorance to misinterpret things that badly.

Weiramon
04-17-2012, 09:00 PM
. Honestly when people make posts like that I always wonder how they can twist things around to such an extent. I understand not liking a character but it takes a special type of willful ignorance to misinterpret things that badly.

Pshaw! That's ridiculous.

fdsaf3
04-17-2012, 11:13 PM
If I weren't so tired and needing to go back to working on my thesis, I'd give serious thought to making a case for Rand. "Incompetent" strikes the wrong tone for me, but you could make a case that he's made as many or more mistakes in getting to the Last Battle as anyone, and some of his mistakes have been far more significant and will have more lasting impact than the mistakes of others.

So I'll just throw that suggestion without backup out there and let you all argue about it (or not) at your leisure. :)

Edynol
04-17-2012, 11:24 PM
What about Aviendha? Aside from teaching Rand about the Aiel, has she really done anything worth while in this series? I love Avi and think she's a great character, but what has she really accomplished aside from training to be a Wise One and talking about toh and honor and emotions and all that?

Rand al'Fain
04-18-2012, 01:45 AM
What about Aviendha? Aside from teaching Rand about the Aiel, has she really done anything worth while in this series? I love Avi and think she's a great character, but what has she really accomplished aside from training to be a Wise One and talking about toh and honor and emotions and all that?

Well, we don't really see her for awhile after she goes with the rest of the Aiel to Arad Doman. Prior to that, short of being hot tempered about Rand, she seems to be one of the more reasonable Super Girls. And isn't completely helpless when her channeling is blocked.

David Selig
04-18-2012, 03:26 AM
Except Perrin and Faile came in there saying they wanted to be completely under Andor control. Egwene was the one who negotiated them into autonomy. And again, she didn't keep ties with the Two Rivers. Faile and Perrin offered ties to Two Rivers. She distanced Andor from it.

It wasn't that the deal was bad for her. It's that she was so incompetent that she had a great deal offered to her, and she negotiated it down to a good deal.
When did Perrin and Faile said they wanted to be completely under Andor's control? That never happened. Their offer was almost complete autonomy for Two Rivers - no taxes paid to Andor's crown, and Perrin as High Lord. Pretty similar to the final deal, only it looks better for Elayne because Rand being the High Lord can be spin in more positive light for her politically.

GonzoTheGreat
04-18-2012, 04:26 AM
What about Aviendha? Aside from teaching Rand about the Aiel, has she really done anything worth while in this series? I love Avi and think she's a great character, but what has she really accomplished aside from training to be a Wise One and talking about toh and honor and emotions and all that?
She softened Rand up so that Min could reel him in.

And she (together with Birgitte) convinced Elayne and Nynaeve to go and apologize to Mat, which was an interesting scene to read.

Rand al'Fain
04-18-2012, 11:34 AM
She softened Rand up so that Min could reel him in.

And she (together with Birgitte) convinced Elayne and Nynaeve to go and apologize to Mat, which was an interesting scene to read.

Like I said, one of the more reasonable Super Girls when it doesn't involve Rand.

Edynol
04-18-2012, 11:46 AM
Not saying she is not reasonable or incompetent, but aside from a few skirmishes she has been, neither which really had any displays of her abilities, what has she done rather than talk and share feelings and such?

GonzoTheGreat
04-18-2012, 11:50 AM
She kept Rand from making too many mistakes. She kept Mat from making too many mistakes. The latter, by the implied threat that the Wise Ones might foist another "teacher" on him, if he did cross the line. :p

Edynol
04-18-2012, 12:42 PM
Yeah I know, but several people have done those things. I guess what I'm saying is that other than being one of Rand's love interests and the relationships she has with the other main characters, she hasn't really done anything to stand.

But having said that, I do think she is gonna have a major impact in AMoL when she sets out to make her visions not come true. :D I still think she is going to find the song and bring the Tinkers and Aiel back together.

McCaber
04-22-2012, 02:23 AM
Most incompetent? Tenobia, for hauling the keystone of the Borderlands' defense down to yell at Rand instead of actually making sure their kingdoms were safe.

Bonus points go to Elayne for constantly getting kidnapped by Darkfriends, but even she has only put herself in danger and not the entire rest of the world.

And for all Tenobia and Bashere might be Darkfriends, for now they're still nominally heroes, so they count here.

Flinn Sedai
04-22-2012, 04:27 AM
Most incompetent? Tenobia, for hauling the keystone of the Borderlands' defense down to yell at Rand instead of actually making sure their kingdoms were safe.

Well, consider the following two points.

1) The Borderlanders were told that if the Dragon Reborn reacted wrongly, then they needed to kill him, or the Dark One would win.

2) They still left enough troops to hold back, in their words, anything short of the Trolloc Wars.

The point was that if Rand reacted incorrectly, then it would be better for the world to be overrun with Trollocs. That kind of takes precedence over leaving extra troops behind, in case the biggest invasion of the Borderlands in 1000 years takes place. Even then, they were gone FAR longer than they were planning on being gone. They were diverted by Elayne, into going to the wrong place, and then got bogged down by the winter.

That's like saying Moiraine was incompetent because she didn't Heal Rand after his fight with Lanfear.

GonzoTheGreat
04-22-2012, 04:51 AM
On the other hand, they did have some reason to assume that Tarmon Gai'don would not be "short of the Trolloc Wars".
And if they had approached Rand at the wrong moment, they probably couldn't have killed him anyway, as he would then have blasted them to pieces using the TP. Which, in turn, would have increased the likelyhood of a victory for the Shadow even more.

When confronting a single man, 100 soldiers are probably no less likely to be effective than 1,000. The other 199,000 the Borderlands took with them were definitely useless at best, and a liability more likely.

Flinn Sedai
04-22-2012, 04:58 AM
On the other hand, they did have some reason to assume that Tarmon Gai'don would not be "short of the Trolloc Wars".

Except, again, they were planning to be back by Tarmon Gaidon, and what they were doing was more important than stopping the Trollocs.

And if they had approached Rand at the wrong moment, they probably couldn't have killed him anyway, as he would then have blasted them to pieces using the TP. Which, in turn, would have increased the likelyhood of a victory for the Shadow even more.

Yes. They admitted that they weren't sure on how they would go about killing him, if the need should arise. But what matter is death, in the face of duty, to a Borderlander? They'd die, but they'd die doing their duty. And no, it wouldn't have increased the likelihood of a victory for the Shadow. Prophecy flat out told them that all was lost if he answered incorrectly. Nothing else matters, if he answered incorrectly.

David Selig
04-22-2012, 05:14 AM
Why are you specifically blaming Tenobia? I thought she just went along with what the other Borderland monarchs suggested. The prophesy came from Paitar's family, and Ethenielle seem to have been more influential in arranging the expedition than Tenobia.

It was a really dumb idea, of course, whoever came up with it. There was no need for the monarchs to take those huge armies with them, it only slowed them down and risked starting a massive war along the way.

Kimon
04-22-2012, 10:20 AM
Why are you specifically blaming Tenobia? I thought she just went along with what the other Borderland monarchs suggested. The prophesy came from Paitar's family, and Ethenielle seem to have been more influential in arranging the expedition than Tenobia.

It was a really dumb idea, of course, whoever came up with it. There was no need for the monarchs to take those huge armies with them, it only slowed them down and risked starting a massive war along the way.

The need for the large armies was likely due to the possibility that they knew from Paitar's prophecy that they might have to find themselves at odds with the Dragon should he be incapable of answering the question. There was also the fact that they likely viewed the fate of the Borderlands as secondary to winning the actual war. And, of course, there is also the fact that they now also serve as a ta'veren windfall for Al'Thor at Merrilor, giving him a massive show of force to use in presumably not only forcing the Aes Sedai to go along with his plan to break the seals, but also perhaps in imposing the Dragon's Peace. Regardless, arguing for Tenobia as the most incompetent hero is silly for a much more simple reason. She is not a hero.

maleshub
04-22-2012, 07:13 PM
Cannot honestly single out one of the main heroes for glaring incompetence. More than one character had a spell, long or short, of incompetence or mistakes. But that was offset by achievements.

One way to tackle this is to list failures; and the most incompetent would not be a hero; but an institution: The White Tower.

Again, this isn't a black and white issue as I can list many of the important things the WT achievements. But as an institution, it is just recovered from a series of debacles that have relegated its role from leader of the Light to almost afterthought.

Mat strikes me as a hero with the least failures. Surprisingly, he fulfilled most of the tasks he was out to do or ordered to fulfill, some of them voluntary. So, he's definitely out of this topic.

Labeling Avienda as incompetent would require a list of her failures. And I don't think she failed in her main tasks. At the start, she was stubbornly trying to resist her destiny with Rand; but she didn't fail as he still fell in love with her. I cannot remember where in the books I can remember that she failed others. Most of her failure was to herself (sacrificing her time with Rand for her toh to Elayne).

Criticism of Siuan as a failure (in staying Amyrlin) has its basis. She admits it herself; and has paid the price. But her failure was caused by a more important goal: The Dragon Reborn and his importance over the WT. She saw the priorities right; and that is not a failure.

Jasin Natael
04-23-2012, 06:01 AM
Most incompetent? Tenobia, for hauling the keystone of the Borderlands' defense down to yell at Rand instead of actually making sure their kingdoms were safe.

Bonus points go to Elayne for constantly getting kidnapped by Darkfriends, but even she has only put herself in danger and not the entire rest of the world.

And for all Tenobia and Bashere might be Darkfriends, for now they're still nominally heroes, so they count here.

Elayne's a Queen. If she is kidnapped successfully, Andor and Cairhien are thrown into civil war.

As for the borderlanders, If Tarmon G'aidon did come, their armies wouldn't be able to hold it back anyway, and Rand would lose two hundred thousand veterans.

Bringing the armies has them to hand if Rand needs them, and allow him to deal with him if he's gone dark.

Durvasha
04-23-2012, 06:30 PM
Who are the heroes that we are discussing? What is the criteria? Seems anyone who picked up a stick in defense of light is being quoted here.

On that note, is Aviendha really that much of a hero in the series that her failures (I dont know what they are) can be compared with Elayne/Egwene/Perrin/Mat/Rand etc? Yes she is one of Rand's (love interest? wife?) but she never has been that much of a main character. I think Juilin and Thom got more face time than her.

About Siuan, again I do not see how she failed. She was pulled down by those she was trying to save. She made some decisions which the more rabid of her followers did not like, and she made some of those decisions under Taveren influence. How can she be blamed for that? I dont find faults with my heroes for being undiplomatic.

If we look at the achievements, so far I think everyone is achieving their goals. What many of us are doing is attaching blames for battles, and saying that 'ok, he won the war, but what about that battle, where the enemy surprised him (by attacking without declaration of war) and he had to retreat? If we look at where each of them started, what they survived, what they accomplished and where they are now, it will be hard to fault any of them. If we analyzed each and every one of their actions, perhaps we will see that some of them even cant put correct amount of sugar in tea? :)

I love Mat. When I am rereading a book, first I read all his passages, and then go back to others. But, I think he had the most hilarious incompetence. He failed to escape from a group of soldiers that he didnot want to lead, not once, but again and again. How is that for incompetence:D?

Rand al'Fain
04-23-2012, 09:37 PM
Took Mat a while to realize that no matter what, he was stuck with the soldiers that would go on to make the core of the Band of the Red Hand. Still some of the best parts are with Mat, no matter what.

Jonai
04-24-2012, 02:29 AM
I'm still trying to figure out what Aiel in Andor people are talking about. By the time of the Perrin Elayne confrontation they are in Arad Doman.

Most incompetent hero is definitely Moiraine. Fails to save a cute kid in New Spring. Spends 20 years trying to find TDR, woefully misinterprets portions of the kareathon cycle, and in the end what does she do? Have a Pajama Party with Lannie. Gawd.

jana
04-24-2012, 02:31 AM
Most incompetent hero is definitely Moiraine.

I believe you meant to put this in most competent. I know it's cornfusing with the odd wording. If it was up to me it would be least competent and most competent. That way nobody's brain melts.

Flinn Sedai
04-24-2012, 05:01 AM
Most incompetent hero is definitely Moiraine. Fails to save a cute kid in New Spring. Spends 20 years trying to find TDR, woefully misinterprets portions of the kareathon cycle, and in the end what does she do? Have a Pajama Party with Lannie. Gawd.

So, she's incompetent because she failed to single-handedly stop a massive conspiracy of the Black Ajah, on last minute's notice, and came to the wrong conclusions that everybody came to?

She also happened to be the thing that essentially kept Rand sane and non-Dark Rand-y. Even he flat out says that everything went wrong as soon as she was gone.

Also responsible for finding and training the future Amyrlin. But we'll forgive her for that. ;)

Oh, and found the Horn of Valere. And killed Forsaken.

But other than that stuff, totally incompetent.

Jonai
04-24-2012, 07:49 AM
Well to be perfectly honest, Loial "found" the horn of valere. :)

Lost One
12-15-2012, 10:42 PM
I have loved reading these and the ... strong opinions. I never knew that particular characters were disliked so much.

I would like to submit Cadsuane. Back 20 years ago, there was some secret vileness going on by AS. She mentioned it to others, "Were you involved in the vileness twenty years ago?" Cannot remember exactly where, but it was in ACoS, right after she is introduced and I think it is to Merana. This had something to do with Reds illegally gentleing men, perhaps under the orders of the BA trying to get rid of tDR. And she did not stop it.

Secondly, she deliberately kept prodding Rand, even though it was makeing him worse, to the point that he almost kills Tam in a rage, due specifically to her mismanagement.