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gholam
04-19-2012, 02:41 AM
I have a lot against the Aess sedai but this is at the top of my list of grouses.


The Aes Sedai know that the dragon reborn is going to be male and a channeler. Consequently their main duty should have been


To find ways to heal the madness caused by the taint.

At least find a way to contain the madness so that the men won't go totally berserk and do some real damage


They had 3000 years to find an answer to the madness-rand found it in about a year, they have the best library in the world, they have scholarly force in the brown Ajah.

Instead what they do is silly. They have a red ajah who's sole purpose is to hunt the male channelers and gentle them. What if they accidentally gentled the Dragon reborn? What would happen to the world if he is thus gentled? didn't they ever think of that.

Am I right in thinking that the Aes Sedai are really selfish and stupid?

GonzoTheGreat
04-19-2012, 04:25 AM
After hundreds of years of trying to find a way to remove the Taint, the AS finally gave up on it. Sort of like how serious scientists in our world have given up on making a perpetuum mobile: they know that the laws of nature do not allow that.
The AS may very well have been reasoning that since the DO is comparable to the Creator, he too could write laws of nature, and the Taint might be an example of that.
Rand, of course, had a bit more of an incentive to find a cure. :p

Some AS thought of the risk of gentling the DR. That's one of the reasons why Moiraine and Siuan were trying to find him; to prevent that from happening.
Others may have reasoned that the Pattern wouldn't let that happen, so they need not worry about the possibility.

You are right in thinking that they are selfish and stupid.

Edynol
04-19-2012, 06:30 AM
Rand didn't find the cure for madness, he just found a way to stop it. Nynaeve found the cure. But yeah I agree. The AS were so set in their ways that they were essentially machines, no imagination when it came to using the OP differently. They weren't willing to push and prod the boundaries of what was considered safe when using the power. For example, they never studied compulsion because they were afraid of sisters using it for devious means. You don't have to be a DF to covet power and such, and one could argue that since it didn't really do any direct, physical harm, it wasn't a weapon and so on. Nynaeve, on the other, threw custom out the window habitually and had a few opportunities to study compulsion.

And when she finally had enough of that ashy going on about fades and delved deep inside his head, what did she finally find? That the taint madness was very similar to compulsion in the way it wrapped itself around ones brain. And just like she did with that one guy, though failing, to a degree it being her first time, she did with that ashy, being careful not to make the same mistakes.

So yeah, after eons do things a certain, the AS stopped learning new things and stopped progressing when it came to the power until the super girls came and shook everything up. Once they did that, things started picking up and the other younger AS took after them. Like re-discovering how to make cuendillar(I can't remember, but wasn't some random novice or accepted that discovered that instead of one of the super girls?)

So if the AS had just taken more chances, who knows where they would be today? Hell they might have discovered how to cure death! Remember even RJ himself once said the OP couldn't cure madness, well, we all know even what was once considered canon isn't always fact set in stone. So who knows what's possible with the power?

GonzoTheGreat
04-19-2012, 06:38 AM
I can't remember, but wasn't some random novice or accepted that discovered that instead of one of the super girls?
Yeah, it was the random Accepted who got stuffed into the position of Amyrlin by the rebels. Her name is Egwene al'Vere.

Edited to add:

In defense of the AS: the Shadow was actively working to discourage them from making any progress.
That was a major reason for the Trolloc Wars: to shatter all cohesion and do away with the attempts to return to the Age of Legends.

And it is quite possible that the Black Ajah has been working to prevent any innovation too. It would be relatively simple and totally in character for them: kill any innovative AS in such a way that it seems to be a result of her experiments, and eventually the AS will conclude that experimentation is dangerous. Plus, as a bonus those innovative AS will stop innovating, once they're dead.

Edynol
04-19-2012, 07:11 AM
It was Eggy? Okay. But I remember there gbeing one or two things not discovered by one of the supergirls.

David Selig
04-19-2012, 07:35 AM
The Aes Sedai in general are victims of RJ using them to make the Supergirls look good, often in a really forced and illogical way.

Though I can't fault them for the gentling at all - they tried to find a solution for hundreds of years, didn't work, so they resorted to the tried and safe course instead of keep risking with people who can go destroy cities single-handedly when they go insane. The Pattern will take care of the Dragon when the time comes.

Boli
04-19-2012, 08:23 AM
If you have been taught that this is the way to do something and actively discoraged from experimentation both with the power and objects of the power..

You can forgive the Tower Aes Sedai from not discovering all that they might; remember even the greatest of the Aes Sedai spent 10 years in the tower being indoctrinated to think and act in a cetain way.

It comes no surprise that recruits who have spent barely any time in the tower and muddle through on their own are far more flexible to attempting new things.

Even the research into men's channeling in the trolloc wars (they found even whilst asleep a man could be maintained in a circle) was only an attempt to have larger circles of saidier; whist the man was sleeping. A true circle in the AoL would be more 50/50 but I'll wager they made no attempt to utilise saidien... just used more saidier.

Edynol
04-19-2012, 09:20 AM
Yeah I ain't putting any fault on the AS, just saying that is why they haven't achieved their max potential. They were all institutionalized until the supergirls came and broke their routine. I was just saying if they had experimented more and acted like the supergirls they wouldn't be the way they are now. Or were, I should say now.

And yes, I very much believe the BA was behind this doctrine of 'playing it safe' to keep the AS from rediscovering AOL weaves and such. I remember making a thread a few years ago about just that. lol.

Davian93
04-19-2012, 10:41 AM
Um...Deus Ex Mach-


Do I really have to finish this thought?

gholam
04-19-2012, 10:47 AM
Then it seems the AS, for all their posturing and sermonizing others are totally gullible and pliable.

The BA manipulating them into not finding the cure for madness due to taint is an excuse and lame at that.

They forgot their primary duty. They were so wrapped up in their own awesomeness that they failed the world. What did they achieve all these millennia? practically nothing. As an example, if somebody wanted a cure for an incurable disease, they have to go all the way to Tar Valon. Ah! If you are a king or a queen, then you have your own personal pet AS like Elaida, Annnoura etc etc. Why didn't they set up healing centres all over the land? as for the Green Ajah! they are never where they are needed, the borderlands. In fact the borderlands are left to defend for themselves.

If they couldn't realize that they are being manipulated by BA, then they are even more incompetent than I thought.

suttree
04-19-2012, 11:00 AM
Then it seems the AS, for all their posturing and sermonizing others are totally gullible and pliable.

The BA manipulating them into not finding the cure for madness due to taint is an excuse and lame at that.

They forgot their primary duty. They were so wrapped up in their own awesomeness that they failed the world. What did they achieve all these millennia? practically nothing. As an example, if somebody wanted a cure for an incurable disease, they have to go all the way to Tar Valon. Ah! If you are a king or a queen, then you have your own personal pet AS like Elaida, Annnoura etc etc. Why didn't they set up healing centres all over the land? as for the Green Ajah! they are never where they are needed, the borderlands. In fact the borderlands are left to defend for themselves.


They also have saved the world a few times over. They have been the main force against the shadow for three thousand years. Yes the WT as an institution has failed but you can hardly fault them for not finding a way to remove the taint. They had no knowledge of the access keys and no idea how to even begin something they thought only the creator could do.

As for Greens in the Borderlands yes they are up there guarding. It is mentioned in tEotW world as well when Agelmar is getting scouting reports from them. Pre-travelling when the heaviest action they saw since the Trolloc Wars was raiding not sure how you expect a group that small to cover the whole border?

Interview: 2010
Twitter 2009-2010 (WoT) (Verbatim)
Terez (11 August 2010)
Are there actually Warders and Aes Sedai guarding the Blight at all times? Or is that another TEOTWism?
Brandon Sanderson (11 August 2010)
Well, there are Aes Sedai and Warders staying with most Borderlander monarchs.
BRANDON SANDERSON
I would say that yes, they are up there guarding...

In terms of yellows you don't have to go to TV, they use their network of eyes and ears to search out outbreaks of disease and the like and send sisters to go heal them. That is in addition to all the sisters out working in the world that do so during their travels. Hardly the most efficient method and they should be setting up hospitals but it isn't like you make out either.

Of all the things you can hate AS for not sure why you would pick on the Reds? As unlikable as they are their work has been a necessity that no one can argue against.

Davian93
04-19-2012, 11:27 AM
In terms of yellows you don't have to go to TV, they use their network of eyes and ears to search out outbreaks of disease and the like and send sisters to go heal them. That is in addition to all the sisters out working in the world that do so during their travels. Hardly the most efficient method and they should be setting up hospitals but it isn't like you make out either.


Which really really helps all those "Hey, I fell and cracked open my skull" type of people...not to mention disease/illnesses that aren't mass outbreaks. If anything, the Yellow should want to have a couple sisters in at least every major city for such issues...if they actually did care so much about healing the sick.

gholam
04-19-2012, 11:40 AM
Any specifics about borderland Greens and Warders. I am not talking about the greens comfortably ensconced in a kings court. I am talking about those who actually fight. If anything, most of the green Ajah should be in the borderlands for they are the fighting Ajah and AS only fight with the shadownspawn. Where else do they find trollocs if not at the borderlands? But we see... how many greens fighting there? We have seen Ituralde, fighting at the BL with the help of Ashaman. We have seen Mradon almost falling. Where were the AS there.

As for them saving the world from shadow, of course they might have done some good accidentally.

suttree
04-19-2012, 11:40 AM
Which really really helps all those "Hey, I fell and cracked open my skull" type of people...not to mention disease/illnesses that aren't mass outbreaks. If anything, the Yellow should want to have a couple sisters in at least every major city for such issues...if they actually did care so much about healing the sick.

Which is why I said

Hardly the most efficient method and they should be setting up hospitals

Not to mention those sisters working in the world do quite a bit of that.

TGS
The rug itself was labeled, the gift of a trader who had purchased it on the closed docks of Shara, then bestowed it on Meidani in thanks for Healing his daughter.

My overall point though is Gholam's thought process seems to be a bit misguided. That is all.

Davian93
04-19-2012, 11:52 AM
Any specifics about borderland Greens and Warders. I am not talking about the greens comfortably ensconced in a kings court. I am talking about those who actually fight. If anything, most of the green Ajah should be in the borderlands for they are the fighting Ajah and AS only fight with the shadownspawn. Where else do they find trollocs if not at the borderlands? But we see... how many greens fighting there? We have seen Ituralde, fighting at the BL with the help of Ashaman. We have seen Mradon almost falling. Where were the AS there.

As for them saving the world from shadow, of course they might have done some good accidentally.

My thought process on this is that the Green Ajah considered itself the nuclear weapons of Randland and they held themselves in reserve for another Trolloc Wars type of event. They probably looked at the situation as a type of risk assessment where the Borderland nations were capable of handling the average Myrdraal/Trolloc raids without OP assistance so it was smarter to just save their numbers for the inevitable Last Battle/next Trollocs Wars event. If you'll recall, the Amyrlin was going to seen a massive AS/Warder led task force to save Malkier but they arrived too late...so clearly there was a process in place for such emergencies even if it was too late in that particular scenario....a scenario that almost certainly occurred as a result of the Wheel needing Lan to become Moiraine's warder so she could find Rand in the TR and help him become the Dragon Reborn. Thus, the Wheel basically fvcked over the best laid plans of the WT in that scenario all so the crown prince of Malkier could become a warder instead.

suttree
04-19-2012, 12:00 PM
Any specifics about borderland Greens and Warders. I am not talking about the greens comfortably ensconced in a kings court. I am talking about those who actually fight. If anything, most of the green Ajah should be in the borderlands for they are the fighting Ajah and AS only fight with the shadownspawn. Where else do they find trollocs if not at the borderlands? But we see... how many greens fighting there? We have seen Ituralde, fighting at the BL with the help of Ashaman. We have seen Mradon almost falling. Where were the AS there.

As for them saving the world from shadow, of course they might have done some good accidentally.

We have a quote from the author saying they are up there guarding. They quite obviously are not just sitting court. In addition from tEotW...

EotW
None of their scouts, and none of the Warders, report Trolloc massing above their borders, as we have here, but they believe

Now if we know around that time that...

"Kandor, Arafel, Saldaea – the Trollocs raided them all straight through the winter. Nothing like that has happened since the Trolloc Wars; the raids have never been so fierce, or so large, or pressed home so hard

A winter of heavy raiding has been damn near unheard of since the Trolloc Wars, what would you have them do given the size of the border and low numbers of AS? Davien has the right of it in his post. We know Greens are up their fighting but pre-travelling it would be close to impossible to be in the right place at the right time to combat raids.

Heinz
04-19-2012, 12:04 PM
Perhaps they consider themselves nuclear weapons, but they are in fact soldiers. Perhaps highly specialized soldiers, but soldiers all the same, who could have used 'tour' type rotations on the Blightborder to gain experience.

I always felt the lack of Aes Sedai presence in the world was how Jordan wanted the story to progress, to give room for the rise of the young hero's, and using the needs of the Pattern and the machinations of the Black Ajah/Shadow to achieve that setting.

It's too bad, really. I would have enjoyed seeing even a glimpse of the world with Aes Sedai an active presence, in their relative roles (there are threads in the archive about it, with each Ajah having a useful and practical job).

suttree
04-19-2012, 12:10 PM
I always felt the lack of Aes Sedai presence in the world was how Jordan wanted the story to progress, to give room for the rise of the young hero's, and using the needs of the Pattern and the machinations of the Black Ajah/Shadow to achieve that setting.


But here is the thing. We know a percentage of the WT is out in the world at any given time. Every sisters rooms we come across have mementos from a long life lived outside the WT adventuring. We just don't see those average every day sisters in the main story.

Davian93
04-19-2012, 12:29 PM
But here is the thing. We know a percentage of the WT is out in the world at any given time. Every sisters rooms we come across have mementos from a long life lived outside the WT adventuring. We just don't see those average every day sisters in the main story.

I'm too busy to look up the quote right now but isnt there a statement about how only 1/3 of all AS live in the WT at any given time even if all of them have assigned rooms there. Of that 1/3 (say 350 AS at the time of the statement), a good portion of them are probably involved in the administration of the WT and Tar Valon (Hall, Amyrlin, Keeper), as well as training the next set of AS (teachers, Brown Ajah librarians, etc). The rest are probably rotating in and out as they need to as its just a home base. The other 600-700 AS were basically gone at all times. Randland is just a very big place.

gholam
04-19-2012, 12:58 PM
My thought process on this is that the Green Ajah considered itself the nuclear weapons of Randland and they held themselves in reserve for another Trolloc Wars type of event. They probably looked at the situation as a type of risk assessment where the Borderland nations were capable of handling the average Myrdraal/Trolloc raids without OP assistance so it was smarter to just save their numbers for the inevitable Last Battle/next Trollocs Wars event. If you'll recall, the Amyrlin was going to seen a massive AS/Warder led task force to save Malkier but they arrived too late...so clearly there was a process in place for such emergencies even if it was too late in that particular scenario....a scenario that almost certainly occurred as a result of the Wheel needing Lan to become Moiraine's warder so she could find Rand in the TR and help him become the Dragon Reborn. Thus, the Wheel basically fvcked over the best laid plans of the WT in that scenario all so the crown prince of Malkier could become a warder instead.

What use is a large nuclear force if they are not stationed where they are required. The large force to save Malkier was late in arriving. The point is, when they know the Trollocs would be attacking near the blight boarder, why don't they have a large force of Greens and their warders readily available where the trollocs are sure to attack.

suttree
04-19-2012, 01:09 PM
What use is a large nuclear force if they are not stationed where they are required. The large force to save Malkier was late in arriving. The point is, when they know the Trollocs would be attacking near the blight boarder, why don't they have a large force of Greens and their warders readily available where the trollocs are sure to attack.

See the quote about a winter of heavy raiding being damn near unheard of since the Trolloc Wars. As proven above Greens and Warders are up there patrolling and giving intelligence to the BLs. Once again please tell me how pre-travelling with their low numbers they could possibly hope to defend the blight against every raid and pin point where the attacks would come?

As for Malkier it was a surprise attack/crime of opportunity set up by DFs from within. It only worked because the border forts were stripped due to trickery. You can not rightly hold that against the AS.

Davian93
04-19-2012, 01:35 PM
What use is a large nuclear force if they are not stationed where they are required. The large force to save Malkier was late in arriving. The point is, when they know the Trollocs would be attacking near the blight boarder, why don't they have a large force of Greens and their warders readily available where the trollocs are sure to attack.

The blight border is something like 4000 miles long and there are probably 150-200 greens total...where along that border should they be stationed or do you recommend that they put 1 every 200 miles and just hope they can get to the incursion site?

Strategically, having them set back from the border at a fairly central location like Tar Valon makes good sense so that hopefully the armies hold them long enough at the Blight border for the AS task force to get there to repel a major invasion. As we saw with Malkier, this didnt happen but as I already noted, that's likely due to the Wheel requiring it not to work so Lan would be where he needed to be instead of ruling a Borderland Nation.

greatwolf
04-19-2012, 05:46 PM
What use is a large nuclear force if they are not stationed where they are required. The large force to save Malkier was late in arriving. The point is, when they know the Trollocs would be attacking near the blight boarder, why don't they have a large force of Greens and their warders readily available where the trollocs are sure to attack.

Don't forget that AS are actually seen as manipulating "witches" by the rest of the world. Even having two of them permanently stationed in any city would creates problems. Especially if the were stationed there in peacetime when they would have nothing to do but manipulate...

And the trolloc wars put paid to any sort of global alliance against the shadow. They've not been able to revive anything like the compact.

fionwe1987
04-19-2012, 06:20 PM
People seem to think Aes Sedai are superhuman.

Let's take the case of the Yellows needing to set up hospitals...

At best, they can set these up in the major capitals/big cities, of which there are 16-17. Of those, three are outright hostile to Aes Sedai. Lets say they ignore the dangers in the other cities, and set up a hospital each in one of them.

There are roughly 80 yellows.

Given that each sister can only do so much Healing in a day before she becomes too exhausted to channel, you would need at least twenty sisters in each hospital to cater to the roughly 1000 or so patients they can expect to see each day.

But they just don't have those numbers. If they pick an choose a few places, they risk being accused of favoritism. If they put fewer sisters, those sisters will either have to pick and choose whom to Heal (hello riots!) or die from exhaustion.

What about when they had much larger numbers? Well, what about those times? Do we KNOW the Aes Sedai didn't have hospitals in the major cities of the Ten Nations? No. All we know is they were immensely influential then, and almost brought the world to a place where a second AoL could be contemplated.

Then they got hit with a three hundred year war, which only ended due to their work, but was so costly that their own Amyrlin had to die in the Battlefield (not before they routed the Trollocs, thankfully).

Before they can recover, they're hit with a string of False Dragons, which culminates in thousand year period of semi-recovery that is only to be broken by Ishamael meddling again.

So when you look at the AS of today, you need to realize the smaller numbers means they can do less. And it also means that the current state of affairs is hardly what existed for the whole 300 years!

Judging the entire 3000 history of the AS based on their admittedly poor handling of the current situation is completely ridiculous.

Madness
04-19-2012, 09:08 PM
I think you're right to think the Aes Sedai are selfish, but for the wrong reasons.

Remember: no one really knew what the madness was, because everyone present at the strike on SG was either dead or .. mad.

And by mad, I mean world altering, weapons of mass destruction mad.

There are hints of the Aes Sedai trying to help or contain the men (alluded to earlier, re: linking men while they slept, support for the Ogier who tried to shelter male channellers in the stedding...), but there's only so much they could do. Eventually those who might have helped were gone, and the thread has covered how Ishamael and the BA conspired over the millenia to undo all good and unravel all unity.

It's also worth noting that even in the Age of Legends it was not believed that madness could be healed. That means that someone like Nynaeve is not just once-a-generation; she's a once-an-age person.

Also worth noting: the ultimate solution to the madness was cleansing the taint, and that required a male channeller wielding A LOT of Saidin.

I think the AS selfishness is of a different kind, which I will post next.

Madness
04-19-2012, 09:17 PM
Regarding Aes Sedai selfishness, one significant subtext to the series has been the difference between the Aes Sedai in Randland as compared to the Aiel chanellers, the Windfinders, the Kin, and the Damane. Each of the other groups of channellers has functioned productively within a strong socio-political framework in which leadership was conveyed for reasons independent of channelling abilty.

It's worth observing that these other societies only work because of their isolation (Aiel and Sea Folk), obscurity (Kin) or subjugation (Seanchan Damane). But only the Aes Sedai dared to live openly in the broad culture, and to challenge the policies of the world's monarchs for the greater good of preparing for the Last Battle. And I think they deserve some credit for that.

But of course the Aes Sedai also set themselves up as separate from the culture in many ways, and I think the series intends us to see how this lack of real engagement in society has isolated and deformed them and caused them to devolve into pettiness and party strife. In this way they lost much of their talent and strength and became susceptible to the machinations of the Black Ajah at the worst possible moment. It's an important part of the story, so I don't think it functions as a Deux ex Machina.

Notice that in the Dragon's house, the female and male channellers have been brought back together, and with no real exceptions the result has been a very healthy union.

Furthermore, those who dislike Egwene seem not to realise the vital role that she is playing by breaking down these barriers and opening the doors for engagemnet in society, first by her open door policy to all channellers regardless of ability (the Kin), and then by her negotiations with the Aiel and Sea Folk to allow the three groups to learn from one anothers' strengths. And there is even a future lesson for her to learn from the Seanchan.

While the Aes Sedai have certainly been selfish and a failure in many ways and have deserved our eye-rolling, they have also [somewhat] held the world together for the last battle. And while the Tower has produced its Elaidas, it has also produced Moiraine, Siuane, Verin, Cadsuane, Silviana, etc...

Verin Mathwin
04-19-2012, 10:03 PM
Rand didn't find the cure for madness, he just found a way to stop it. Nynaeve found the cure.


Just had a thought: Maybe the madness wasn't curable until the taint was removed. Yes male channelers are not always holding the source but in a sense they are still linked to it and therefore the taint as well.

Davian93
04-19-2012, 10:12 PM
People seem to think Aes Sedai are superhuman.

Let's take the case of the Yellows needing to set up hospitals...

At best, they can set these up in the major capitals/big cities, of which there are 16-17. Of those, three are outright hostile to Aes Sedai. Lets say they ignore the dangers in the other cities, and set up a hospital each in one of them.

There are roughly 80 yellows.

Given that each sister can only do so much Healing in a day before she becomes too exhausted to channel, you would need at least twenty sisters in each hospital to cater to the roughly 1000 or so patients they can expect to see each day.

Okay, for starters, you are looking at it a bit too simplistically. First ask yourself why some of those groups dislike AS? They see them as selfish and only interested in manipulation of those in power for their own devices. Setting up free hospitals is the antithesis of that. It would literally be a "winning the hearts and minds" method by the WT to gain support for AS. They would be "Servants of All" in truth AND name. Also, those hospitals would serve as natural recruiting stations for AS so their numbers would likely be higher than they currently are. Right now, unless a girl travels all the way to Tar Valon on her own or an AS just happens to stop in her village, she's not going to become a Novice. If there were centers in every major city and maybe even occasional stops in smaller cities like Whitebridge and Baerlon, they'd get far more reach for recruiting. It wouldnt just be 80 Yellows at that point.

I doubt there would be riots from them not healing everyone. They would make it very clear that they only heal the most serious injuries/illnesses and people's normal respect of them and the OP would restrain them from such actions as they do now.

There is literally no negatives to such an idea.

gholam
04-19-2012, 10:40 PM
People seem to think Aes Sedai are superhuman.

Let's take the case of the Yellows needing to set up hospitals...

At best, they can set these up in the major capitals/big cities, of which there are 16-17. Of those, three are outright hostile to Aes Sedai. Lets say they ignore the dangers in the other cities, and set up a hospital each in one of them.

There are roughly 80 yellows.

Given that each sister can only do so much Healing in a day before she becomes too exhausted to channel, you would need at least twenty sisters in each hospital to cater to the roughly 1000 or so patients they can expect to see each day.

But they just don't have those numbers. If they pick an choose a few places, they risk being accused of favoritism. If they put fewer sisters, those sisters will either have to pick and choose whom to Heal (hello riots!) or die from exhaustion.

What about when they had much larger numbers? Well, what about those times? Do we KNOW the Aes Sedai didn't have hospitals in the major cities of the Ten Nations? No. All we know is they were immensely influential then, and almost brought the world to a place where a second AoL could be contemplated.

Then they got hit with a three hundred year war, which only ended due to their work, but was so costly that their own Amyrlin had to die in the Battlefield (not before they routed the Trollocs, thankfully).

Before they can recover, they're hit with a string of False Dragons, which culminates in thousand year period of semi-recovery that is only to be broken by Ishamael meddling again.

So when you look at the AS of today, you need to realize the smaller numbers means they can do less. And it also means that the current state of affairs is hardly what existed for the whole 300 years!

Judging the entire 3000 history of the AS based on their admittedly poor handling of the current situation is completely ridiculous.


Imagine what would we be doing if all the doctors of the world thought similarly and went and sat in high walled forts and asked us to travel for days to reach them for emergencies?

As for Ishamael meddling and false dragons, we only know of 3 or 4 false dragons in the entire 2000 year period, Amasalan, Stonebow, Davian, Darksbane (was he an FD?). It's amusing to see that people come up with lame excuses to defend Aes Sedai stupidity and selfishness.

As for Egwene, I took great care to not to mention Eggy. Because if the AS were to elect their amarlyn based on selfishness, then Egwene is truly their leader, with the biggest possible head taking up the entire top floor of the White tower and with some hanging out. I don't even want to start on Eggy.

Davian93
04-19-2012, 11:02 PM
Imagine what would we be doing if all the doctors of the world thought similarly and went and sat in high walled forts and asked us to travel for days to reach them for emergencies?

As for Ishamael meddling and false dragons, we only know of 3 or 4 false dragons in the entire 2000 year period, Amasalan, Stonebow, Davian, Darksbane (was he an FD?). It's amusing to see that people come up with lame excuses to defend Aes Sedai stupidity and selfishness.

As for Egwene, I took great care to not to mention Eggy. Because if the AS were to elect their amarlyn based on selfishness, then Egwene is truly their leader, with the biggest possible head taking up the entire top floor of the White tower and with some hanging out. I don't even want to start on Eggy.

Then dont mention it...at least not here. We have a thread for that.

suttree
04-19-2012, 11:16 PM
Imagine what would we be doing if all the doctors of the world thought similarly and went and sat in high walled forts and asked us to travel for days to reach them for emergencies?

As for Ishamael meddling and false dragons, we only know of 3 or 4 false dragons in the entire 2000 year period, Amasalan, Stonebow, Davian, Darksbane (was he an FD?). It's amusing to see that people come up with lame excuses to defend Aes Sedai stupidity and selfishness.

As for Egwene, I took great care to not to mention Eggy. Because if the AS were to elect their amarlyn based on selfishness, then Egwene is truly their leader, with the biggest possible head taking up the entire top floor of the White tower and with some hanging out. I don't even want to start on Eggy.

Come on mate, at least try to pretend that you are approaching the topic rationally. As was mentioned earlier they travel the world healing and set their eyes and ears network to seek out and send aid to emergencies, outbreaks of disease etc. Not exactly ideal but a far cry from what you are claiming.

Secondly the WT as an institution has failed, no argument. But it is laughable to categorize an Elaida led, Ishy targeted, BA riddled, Forsaken infiltrated, Fain influenced, split WT as weak excuses. This is a fallen world RJ is describing and the WT is not exempt. There are great, terrible and average AS just like every other group in this world. To categorize them all as stupid and selfish is just ridiculous.

Posters have disputed each of your claims with evidence from the text. Instead of responding you just swing off onto another biased rant. As for Egwene she has flat out stated the WT needs to change and has done more to positively transition them with reforms in her short time as Amrylin than any other since the Trolloc Wars. She has drank a bit too much of the kool-aid for my liking but her motivations in evolving the culture and responsibility she feels in facing the shadow are made very clear.

Boli
04-20-2012, 03:23 AM
The white tower as an institution only failed in Hawkwind's time.

Previously there was no Children of the Light... nor was there an extreme distrust of Aes Sedai... in fact Hawkwind's empire in the beginning had many Aes Sedai in positions of real power and administration of his empire.

In fact aside from the taint *almost* every issue to do with channeling and the splinter channeling groups stems from Hawkwind's empire and the effects when it collapsed.

In fact its a personal theory of mine that the reason there are THREE ta'veren rather than just one (and only one caused the breaking as well)... was because the previous ta'veren messed up so much and pulled the pattern away from its intended course.

I just find it amusing that more issues/problems can be laid at the feet of Hawkwind than the breaking itself.

gholam
04-20-2012, 03:39 AM
Then dont mention it...at least not here. We have a thread for that.

I know. That's why I kept it to the barest essentials :)

gholam
04-20-2012, 03:45 AM
...
Posters have disputed each of your claims with evidence from the text. Instead of responding you just swing off onto another biased rant. As for Egwene she has flat out stated the WT needs to change and has done more to positively transition them with reforms in her short time as Amrylin than any other since the Trolloc Wars. She has drank a bit too much of the kool-aid for my liking but her motivations in evolving the culture and responsibility she feels in facing the shadow are made very clear.

I felt that the posters were actually telling me that the AS were selfish and stupid, but some of them have their own reasons, the bottom line is they are stupid and selfish. Or else Ishy, BA, and a million others won't be able to manipulate them.

Of course I am biased, but I am not born biased. My bias came from reading the story and realizing that the AS are Stupid and Selfish

GonzoTheGreat
04-20-2012, 03:48 AM
In terms of yellows you don't have to go to TV, they use their network of eyes and ears to search out outbreaks of disease and the like and send sisters to go heal them. That is in addition to all the sisters out working in the world that do so during their travels. Hardly the most efficient method and they should be setting up hospitals but it isn't like you make out either.
Before Moiraine entered the Two Rivers, when was the last time that an AS came there?
How many eyes and ears did they have in that whole region before Rand made the area famous?

I would say that the answers to those questions are: "a very long time ago, probably centuries" and "none". Which then brings up the next question: how many more areas did they ignore to such an extend, and how good was their service really if it had such large holes in the coverage?

gholam
04-20-2012, 08:18 AM
The excuse that the AS couldn't research and find anything new because of the wars and turmoil in the land is just an excuse. If we look at our world and history, the most cutting edge technology is always developed for the military and to win wars, be it Rayon or harnessing Nuclear power or communications or flying. They were a fall out of great wars among us mere mortals. by the same token, the great researchers of AS, the Browns should have discovered a million things in 3000 years of turmoil. All they do is they loose precious knowledge in those millennia. I think the AS is the only retrograde group in the WOT world.
As for Ishy and the black Ajah manipulation, it really really is sad that none of the AS stopped to reflect for a few minutes during the last 100 years or so whether they are going in the right direction to find a pattern of deceit among themselves. What use is their knowledge and wisdom if they can't detect the rot among themselves? And Cadusane has the gall to humiliate Rand at every turn.

Davian93
04-20-2012, 08:18 AM
Before Moiraine entered the Two Rivers, when was the last time that an AS came there?
How many eyes and ears did they have in that whole region before Rand made the area famous?

I would say that the answers to those questions are: "a very long time ago, probably centuries" and "none". Which then brings up the next question: how many more areas did they ignore to such an extend, and how good was their service really if it had such large holes in the coverage?

If I had to bet, I would guess that Eldrene was the last Aes Sedai in the Two Rivers...and that was probably the result of the Wheel purposely isolating the Shire, I mean Two Rivers from outside visitors.

SauceyBlueConfetti
04-20-2012, 09:44 AM
The excuse that the AS couldn't research and find anything new because of the wars and turmoil in the land is just an excuse. If we look at our world and history, the most cutting edge technology is always developed for the military and to win wars, be it Rayon or harnessing Nuclear power or communications or flying.

That is a bit simplistic in comparison. The Breaking of the World cannot be compared to World War I.

Continents changed, water sources were eliminated, entire groups of people were erased. The Breaking lasted 250-300 years...not 4. Knowlege was completely lost, alliances were shattered in attempt to survive.

While I like the idea that a core group of AS should have pinpointed finding the Dragon Reborn, they were a bit busy. Also, why would they trust male channelers? You can understand, I think, why they would fear the group of insanity-stricken men and not think, gee, we should look at each one in the hope that a prophecy we don't really understand, nor totally believe, might be true. Talk about looking for a needle in a haystack--more like looking for a live grenade in puddle of mud.

suttree
04-20-2012, 03:55 PM
Before Moiraine entered the Two Rivers, when was the last time that an AS came there?
How many eyes and ears did they have in that whole region before Rand made the area famous?

I would say that the answers to those questions are: "a very long time ago, probably centuries" and "none". Which then brings up the next question: how many more areas did they ignore to such an extend, and how good was their service really if it had such large holes in the coverage?

Quite possibly the most isolated are in that part of the world and that is your example Gonz? Come on mate, you know that is the exception not the rule.

GonzoTheGreat
04-20-2012, 05:11 PM
It is less isolated than the Aiel Waste, which has been ignored by AS for thousands of years. Yet people can get sick there too.
Of course, they've managed fairly well with their Wise Ones, thus making the AS mostly useless. But still, everyone did seem to agree that AS Healing was superior, so they could have done some good there. If they had chosen to.

Seeker
04-20-2012, 08:04 PM
I have a lot against the Aess sedai but this is at the top of my list of grouses.


The Aes Sedai know that the dragon reborn is going to be male and a channeler. Consequently their main duty should have been


To find ways to heal the madness caused by the taint.

At least find a way to contain the madness so that the men won't go totally berserk and do some real damage


They had 3000 years to find an answer to the madness-rand found it in about a year, they have the best library in the world, they have scholarly force in the brown Ajah.

Instead what they do is silly. They have a red ajah who's sole purpose is to hunt the male channelers and gentle them. What if they accidentally gentled the Dragon reborn? What would happen to the world if he is thus gentled? didn't they ever think of that.

Am I right in thinking that the Aes Sedai are really selfish and stupid?

Nevermind everyone else's arguments about whether or not the Aes Sedai believed that only the Creator could cleanse the taint - whether they did or not is irrelevent and it's likely that there was no consensus on that issue - they're all beside the point. What the Aes Sedai may or may not have believed is not important because the truth is that none of them, not one Sister from the Breaking of the World to this very day, could have cleansed the taint.

The task was impossible without male channelers.

Think about it. To a woman who channels, saidin does not exist. Oh, she knows about it in an academic sense but only because she's been told. She can't see saidin or sense it or touch it. She wouldn't see flows of the male half even if a man channeled them right in front of her face. She has no way of interacting with saidin short of linking with a man who can channel. And those have been in very short supply over the last three thousand years.

So, now, in addition to not being able to experience saidin, she can't experience the taint either and thus she can't even begin to postulate how it might be removed. Rand figured out what to do because he could feel the taint pulsing in time with the evil of Shadar Logoth. That gave him a clue as to how to begin. An Aes Sedai would have no such opportunity.

And even if she came up with the idea, how would she access saidin? Even if there was a weave of saidar that could peel the taint off, how would she target the male half of the Source. So far as I've seen, weaves can only target things in the physical world. Rand could channel saidin through a tube of saidar because he had ACCESS to both of those substances via his link to Nynaeve. No lone Aes Sedai would be able to channel AT saidin. (And no circle of Aes Sedai either since you might twist my words).

No, cleansing the taint required a male channeler. Not just any male channeler but a particularly skilled male channeler. And where were the Aes Sedai going to find one of those? Even if they allowed one to channel while supervised, most men would die screaming before achieving anything near the level of proficiency that would be needed to even begin contemplating the issue. And that's assuming that they don't go insane first.

Rand did what he did by cheating. He had an edge over every other man who channeled for the last three thousand years: the knowledge and experience of Lews Therin Telamon, one of the most talented channelers of all time. It was that knowledge that allowed Rand to make sense of what was happening when he felt the pulsing of the taint in Shadar Logoth. It was 400 years of workting with the One Power - even if he could only remember most of it sub-consciously - that shaped his thoughts and guided his planning. No one else could have done it.

You're blaming the Aes Sedai for not doing something that was simply beyond their capability.

suttree
04-20-2012, 08:31 PM
It is less isolated than the Aiel Waste, which has been ignored by AS for thousands of years.

Which is why I said "that part of the world. Why don't you just thrown in Land of the Madmen and Shara while your at it. :rolleyes:

No one is arguing that they failed by not setting up some sort of Hospital scenario but my point still stands about the work they are involved with. You picking out a few extremely remote and/or hostile areas doesn't change that.

gholam
04-20-2012, 09:54 PM
Nevermind everyone else's arguments about whether or not the Aes Sedai believed that only the Creator could cleanse the taint - whether they did or not is irrelevent and it's likely that there was no consensus on that issue - they're all beside the point. What the Aes Sedai may or may not have believed is not important because the truth is that none of them, not one Sister from the Breaking of the World to this very day, could have cleansed the taint.

The task was impossible without male channelers.

Think about it. To a woman who channels, saidin does not exist. Oh, she knows about it in an academic sense but only because she's been told. She can't see saidin or sense it or touch it. She wouldn't see flows of the male half even if a man channeled them right in front of her face. She has no way of interacting with saidin short of linking with a man who can channel. And those have been in very short supply over the last three thousand years.
...

No, cleansing the taint required a male channeler. Not just any male channeler but a particularly skilled male channeler. And where were the Aes Sedai going to find one of those? Even if they allowed one to channel while supervised, most men would die screaming before achieving anything near the level of proficiency that would be needed to even begin contemplating the issue. And that's assuming that they don't go insane first.

You're blaming the Aes Sedai for not doing something that was simply beyond their capability.

That gives them a strong reason to treat the male channelers more humanely. They could have, if they really put their mind to it, found at least, a way to contain the madness so long as to experiment with cleaning the taint. The browns, could have interviewed the MCs and gathered information and at least they could have postulated a method of cleaning the taint. Something like the periodic table. Mandeleev created the periodic table and he predicted the existence of certain elements even though he didn't have the know-how to discover them.

suttree
04-20-2012, 10:29 PM
That gives them a strong reason to treat the male channelers more humanely. They could have, if they really put their mind to it, found at least, a way to contain the madness so long as to experiment with cleaning the taint. The browns, could have interviewed the MCs and gathered information and at least they could have postulated a method of cleaning the taint. Something like the periodic table. Mandeleev created the periodic table and he predicted the existence of certain elements even though he didn't have the know-how to discover them.

Women with far greater knowledge than the current AS, who possibly had access to men I might add were unable to do so. There is no way to contain the taint. It was quite simply impossible without the access keys and the memories of a dead man. Of all the things to dislike AS(of which there are many valid reasons) this one is quite simply absurd.

GonzoTheGreat
04-21-2012, 03:42 AM
Those women did make the Eye of the World, which was a load of saidin from which the Taint had been removed. So they at least knew that it was possible to separate the two.
Of course, the method they'd used was too destructive to be generally practical. But if there is one method, then there are very likely more. Searching for those would have been a valid and worthwhile research topic.

Enigma
04-21-2012, 11:00 AM
Those women did make the Eye of the World, which was a load of saidin from which the Taint had been removed. So they at least knew that it was possible to separate the two.
Of course, the method they'd used was too destructive to be generally practical. But if there is one method, then there are very likely more. Searching for those would have been a valid and worthwhile research topic.

Not to mention it was done with young male Aes Sedai who we were told were inexperienced but presumably still had some training. Without the pool of skilled male channelers they had nothing to work with.

As for the idea that the AS should have kept some male channelers around in controled circumstances so as to experement I don't really see that as practical. Firstly male channeling has a big stigma. Rand managed to get volunteers to join the Black Tower but it was the end of the world and he does have a knack of getting unlikely but statistically possible things to happen. Secondly learning to channell is dangerous. Three out of four die without training and there is no one to train them. Thirdly there are only the sparklers who are going to be found so that limits the pool of recurits/subjects.

Put that together and the AS are not going to have a stream of volunteers. When they learn about a man channeling quite a few are probably already mad and those who are sane are going to run as fast as they can. Taking them alive is no easy feet as training or no training they can put up a fight.

Most of the successful male channelers declare themselves false dragons and are not likely to come quietly. Even if captured they would have to be kept shielded most of the time to prevent the onset of madness and that limits what they can do. I suppose some information could be got from them but as was said earlier there are hits that after the founding of Tar Valon some Aes Sedai did experement with links and probably a few other things to see if there was any way they could work with male channelers. A few hundred years of failure and they probably decided that it could not be done.

gholam
04-21-2012, 01:09 PM
As for the idea that the AS should have kept some male channelers around in controled circumstances so as to experement I don't really see that as practical. Firstly male channeling has a big stigma. Rand managed to get volunteers to join the Black Tower but it was the end of the world and he does have a knack of getting unlikely but statistically possible things to happen. Secondly learning to channell is dangerous. Three out of four die without training and there is no one to train them. Thirdly there are only the sparklers who are going to be found so that limits the pool of recurits/subjects.


Male channeling has a big stigma because the female channelers deliberately attached it. Like vomiting on seeing male channelers, getting nauseated and all the assorted theatricals. If, from the beginning, the AS acknowledged the taint and the resulting madness as a problem which needed solution for a successful fight against the DO, they would have found a way.

There is no one to train the male channellers because the AS made sure of it, by hunting and stilling those who could channel even non-false dragons. No study no nothing.


Most of the successful male channelers declare themselves false dragons and are not likely to come quietly. Even if captured they would have to be kept shielded most of the time to prevent the onset of madness and that limits what they can do. I suppose some information could be got from them but as was said earlier there are hits that after the founding of Tar Valon some Aes Sedai did experement with links and probably a few other things to see if there was any way they could work with male channelers. A few hundred years of failure and they probably decided that it could not be done.

I beg to differ, we have hundreds of Ashaman and just 2 false dragons, may be three, even in an age when the false dragons were proliferating. and we have not more than half a dozen false dragons for the remaining 3000 years.


If not cure the madness, at least they could have studied it's progression so that the DR would have some information on his own madness instead of Caddy and some forsaken taunting him with his madness.


When rand did what caddy with her 300 years age and the whole WT with it's 3000 years of experience couldn't accomplish, all he gets in return from these silly AS is condescension at the best. Caddy keeps calling him 'BOY'. What right does she have to call him a boy when he did what the entire WT couldn't do over millennia, like unite the nations, cleanse the Saidin, finally finding his way in-spite of selfish AS plots to make him their puppet and failed kidnap attempt on him.

The AS for all their posturing that they are the saviours of the world over the millennia did not do a single thing which might assist the DR. No instructions, no documents, infact they put so many obstacles in his path that he is bcame actually vulnerable to Semirhage's bullying. Don't tell me it only led to his epiphany at the DM. Whatever assistance he received from the WT through Moiraine was unauthorized and in secreacy and accidental.

As for BA manipulating the WT from doing anything worthwhile, it's not the BA which pulls them back. it's their own egos that's a hindrance. in TOM when Rand announces that he is going to break the seals, what does the WT do? all it does is to go ahead and bicker who's going to get control of what. Mind you, it is after all the black sisters are weaned away from the tower. Never once do they discuss how to counter Rand's argument or what would an alternative course of action to suggest to Rand. They just keep sniffing and glaring at each other and try to find a way to undermine the Amyrlin's authority. Probably their borderland eyes add ears told them something we don't know yet?

Enigma
04-21-2012, 03:44 PM
Male channeling has a big stigma because the female channelers deliberately attached it. Like vomiting on seeing male channelers, getting nauseated and all the assorted theatricals. If, from the beginning, the AS acknowledged the taint and the resulting madness as a problem which needed solution for a successful fight against the DO, they would have found a way.

That and the fact that mad male channelers rearranged the world and are prone to killing everyone around them.

There is no one to train the male channellers because the AS made sure of it, by hunting and stilling those who could channel even non-false dragons. No study no nothing.

The AS did not really have much of a choice. During the Breaking the world was in too much chaos for the female AS to try to keep any of the male AS shielded long enought for them to pass on their knowledge. We have seen what it takes to hold even one channeler. Granted Rand is superpowerful but maintining a shield 24/7 requires a lot of female channelers and this was a time when people were running in every which direction looking for safety.

By the time the WT was founded the AOL trained males were dead and wha they were left with were refugees who had no real idea of what they were doing. No real skill set there.

Plus there is the problem that if you want the man to keep from going mad you have to keep his shielded. But if you keep him shielded he can't teach anyone else or improve his own skil set. If you don't shield him he will go mad eventually and perhaps the very next time he touches the source.


I beg to differ, we have hundreds of Ashaman and just 2 false dragons, may be three, even in an age when the false dragons were proliferating. and we have not more than half a dozen false dragons for the remaining 3000 years.

I could be wrong here but I was under the impression that the false dragons we all know about were the famous sucessful ones. Not everyone challenged Hawkwing. Some were referred to at the begining of the series and lived only long enought to gather a small force before being killed.


If not cure the madness, at least they could have studied it's progression so that the DR would have some information on his own madness instead of Caddy and some forsaken taunting him with his madness.

There is no one set of madness. Rand has his version, there was the kid who wanted to rearrange the sun palace to keep Min safe, the Asha'man who Nynaeve healed who sees fades in the shadows etc. Some knowledge would be useful but I don't think anyone is going to be able to study every possible weakness of the mind that might arrise.


When rand did what caddy with her 300 years age and the whole WT with it's 3000 years of experience couldn't accomplish, all he gets in return from these silly AS is condescension at the best. Caddy keeps calling him 'BOY'. What right does she have to call him a boy when he did what the entire WT couldn't do over millennia, like unite the nations, cleanse the Saidin, finally finding his way in-spite of selfish AS plots to make him their puppet and failed kidnap attempt on him.

Most of the AS don't know that Rand cleansed the taint, they weren't there. Those who were present are pretty loyal to Rand. Even when Nynaeve reported back what had happened she was talking to a group who from their pov has ran amoke in the world creating all sort of chaos.

As far as Caddy was concenred calling Rand 'boy' was her way of trying to remind him that he was not all powerful and to try and keep him grounded. Her methods sucked but her heart was mostly in the right place.

The AS for all their posturing that they are the saviours of the world over the millennia did not do a single thing which might assist the DR. No instructions, no documents, infact they put so many obstacles in his path that he is bcame actually vulnerable to Semirhage's bullying. Don't tell me it only led to his epiphany at the DM. Whatever assistance he received from the WT through Moiraine was unauthorized and in secreacy and accidental.

Well they tried to keep the peace over the years, maintained knowledge of the Shadow, tried to show people that the DO and his forces should and could be fought. They did help save the world during the trollock wars.

They certainly were not perfect but thats the whole point of the series, no one was perfect. We the nearly all knowing reader know where they were going wrong but lets look at some places where there was no White Tower and no Aes Sedai. How would Rand have fared if the world was a bit like the Seanchan continent before the consolidation or say the land of madmen.

As for BA manipulating the WT from doing anything worthwhile, it's not the BA which pulls them back. it's their own egos that's a hindrance. in TOM when Rand announces that he is going to break the seals, what does the WT do? all it does is to go ahead and bicker who's going to get control of what. Mind you, it is after all the black sisters are weaned away from the tower. Never once do they discuss how to counter Rand's argument or what would an alternative course of action to suggest to Rand. They just keep sniffing and glaring at each other and try to find a way to undermine the Amyrlin's authority. Probably their borderland eyes add ears told them something we don't know yet?

The trouble with the AS is that they think they know best. This had been debated before and I don't want to take the discussion too much off topic but its human nature for people to think that they know what it best for the world and to try to get in control so that they can make things right. Put it another way, in our world one of the closet political, economica and legal alliance of nations is the EU but give them Council of Ministers a crises and you will have at least three of four idea of what needs to be done and each of those groupings will try to convince, manipulate the others to their way of thinking.

suttree
04-21-2012, 09:08 PM
Whatever assistance he received from the WT through Moiraine was unauthorized and in secreacy and accidental.
As for BA manipulating the WT from doing anything worthwhile, it's not the BA which pulls them back. it's their own egos that's a hindrance. in TOM when Rand announces that he is going to break the seals, what does the WT do? all it does is to go ahead and bicker who's going to get control of what. Mind you, it is after all the black sisters are weaned away from the tower. Never once do they discuss how to counter Rand's argument or what would an alternative course of action to suggest to Rand.

Moir and Siuan were forced to act in secrecy because of the BA! They were the entire reason the search and everything else was forced underground in the first place. In relation to Cads, we know per Min's viewing that she played a crucial role. I have no idea why you would ignore what is written plainly in the text. As for the seals Rand has no idea what to do after he breaks them and refused to discuss it with Egwene. There is no way in hell she should just sign off on that without any explanation. The haven't discussed the subject because they have agreed to do so at the FoM. As for what the WT did, far from just bickering Egwene has been marshaling for the fight at TG.

ToM
Obliquely, she realized what she was doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve humankind in the Last Battle.

Davian93
04-21-2012, 10:21 PM
Okay, this thread officially became a waste of time with this:

Male channeling has a big stigma because the female channelers deliberately attached it. Like vomiting on seeing male channelers, getting nauseated and all the assorted theatricals. If, from the beginning, the AS acknowledged the taint and the resulting madness as a problem which needed solution for a successful fight against the DO, they would have found a way.

Its really hard to take you seriously with comments like this.

gholam
04-21-2012, 10:45 PM
Plus there is the problem that if you want the man to keep from going mad you have to keep his shielded. But if you keep him shielded he can't teach anyone else or improve his own skil set. If you don't shield him he will go mad eventually and perhaps the very next time he touches the source.


I am talking about a time period of ... hmmm ... 3000 years. And there are steddings, if they really wanted male channelers contained and studied, they could have forged alliances with the Ogier and used their stedding or better, there were a few abandoned stedding.


I could be wrong here but I was under the impression that the false dragons we all know about were the famous sucessful ones. Not everyone challenged Hawkwing. Some were referred to at the begining of the series and lived only long enought to gather a small force before being killed.


I don't think more than one False Dragon could have challenged Hawkwing. You see, the FDs were each seperated by centuries.

No, there are hundreds of Male channelers for every false dragon, declared or not declared. Both the historical references and the Ashaman to false dragon ratio proves that



There is no one set of madness. Rand has his version, there was the kid who wanted to rearrange the sun palace to keep Min safe, the Asha'man who Nynaeve healed who sees fades in the shadows etc. Some knowledge would be useful but I don't think anyone is going to be able to study every possible weakness of the mind that might arrise.


Caddy taunts Rand with the symptoms of madness. Which means there is a certain commonality which they never bother to document and only use to belittle the DR



Most of the AS don't know that Rand cleansed the taint, they weren't there. Those who were present are pretty loyal to Rand. Even when Nynaeve reported back what had happened she was talking to a group who from their pov has ran amoke in the world creating all sort of chaos.

As far as Caddy was concenred calling Rand 'boy' was her way of trying to remind him that he was not all powerful and to try and keep him grounded.


That's exactly what my point is. Caddy, her only achievement so far has been to hunt and still a few channelers who were already mad and helpless and she expects absolutely obedience from everyone around her.

But when it comes to rand, the AS conceit is obvious. Even though he cleansed Saidin, he found his own way of surviving the taint caused madness, even though he killed a few Forsaken, even though he forged peace among nations, he had to be reminded that he is not to be respected and she doesn't even give him the King's honorific. Silly. Caddy was there when Rand cleansed the taint. She still doesn't think he deserves respect.




Well they tried to keep the peace over the years, maintained knowledge of the Shadow, tried to show people that the DO and his forces should and could be fought. They did help save the world during the trollock wars.


Of course, I don't say they don't do anything useful. But the credit they give themselves for the little they actually do, is ridiculous


They certainly were not perfect but thats the whole point of the series, no one was perfect. We the nearly all knowing reader know where they were going wrong but lets look at some places where there was no White Tower and no Aes Sedai. How would Rand have fared if the world was a bit like the Seanchan continent before the consolidation or say the land of madmen.


Nobody is perfect, the difference is Rand knew he wasn't perfect, but he always tried to improve himself, improve himself so that he can be better suited to fight the DO in TG. While the oh! so wise AS were neither perfect nor were they ready to accept that and they wanted to impose their will on everyone. Rand always did what he must do and the AS always did what they wanted to.


Moir and Siuan were forced to act in secrecy because of the BA! They were the entire reason the search and everything else was forced underground in the first place. In relation to Cads, we know per Min's viewing that she played a crucial role. I have no idea why you would ignore what is written plainly in the text. As for the seals Rand has no idea what to do after he breaks them and refused to discuss it with Egwene. There is no way in hell she should just sign off on that without any explanation. The haven't discussed the subject because they have agreed to do so at the FoM. As for what the WT did, far from just bickering Egwene has been marshaling for the fight at TG. ToM

Eggy agreed to discuss the subject with Rand at FOM, that doesn't preclude them from forming a strategy to dissuade Rand. In fact, it's such a momentous announcement that the fate of the entire world depends on it and all the AS could come up with is their petty schemes. It seems only Eggy is marshalling anything at all for TG, the other wise, knowledgeable AS are still bickering.

gholam
04-21-2012, 10:47 PM
Okay, this thread officially became a waste of time with this:

Its really hard to take you seriously with comments like this.

Dav, come on.

Weird Harold
04-21-2012, 10:47 PM
Okay, this thread officially became a waste of time with this:



Its really hard to take you seriously with comments like this.
And it only took 49 posts for you to catch on.

Arguing with Gholam about Aes Sedai is like arguing with the Egwene-haters -- absolutely nothing will change their mind on a single point, a total waste of time from the start.

suttree
04-21-2012, 10:54 PM
That's exactly what my point is. Caddy, her only achievement so far has been to hunt and still a few channelers who were already mad and helpless and she expects absolutely obedience from everyone around her.


http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=652

You continue to be very adept at completely ignoring anything that falls outside your skewed world view. Sure you don't want to change your user name to Asunawa?

Okay, this thread officially became a waste of time with this:



Its really hard to take you seriously with comments like this.

Yup.

And it only took 49 posts for you to catch on.

Arguing with Gholam about Aes Sedai is like arguing with the Egwene-haters -- absolutely nothing will change their mind on a single point, a total waste of time from the start.

Sure but you would think since his opinions have very little(if any) basis in the text, that eventually he would be forced to come around.

gholam
04-21-2012, 11:18 PM
Sure you don't want to change your user name to Asunawa?


No thanks. I don't want to compete with you.

Now that I think we are even. Let us be done with our personalities and psychoanalyses.

I read about Caddy from your link. She hasn't done much that Rand didn't do, may be except for physically assaulting an Amyrlin. Mind you, most of them were tales. There are tales about DR being 10 feet tall but I don't believe them.

suttree
04-21-2012, 11:20 PM
I read about Caddy from your link. She hasn't done much that Rand didn't do, may be except for physically assaulting an Amyrlin. Mind you, most of them were tales. There are tales about DR being 10 feet tall but I don't believe them.

More selective reading? I'm starting to understand what the problem is.


When Siuan Sanche and Moiraine Damodred had reason to research Cadsuane because of their encounter with her shortly after reaching the shawl, they found many stories regarding Cadsuane. All of the ones that they were able to trace down turned out to be true, and in some cases the truth was more than the story.

gholam
04-21-2012, 11:43 PM
OK, I read the whole piece. My statement still stands that she didn't do much more than Rand. Besides, she had 300 years to do that.

OK I even agree that Caddy was awesome. But that doesn't give her license to treat Rand like an unruly kid. After all he is the DR. Her treatment of rand tells a lot about the general AS attitude towards the DR.

Rand al'Fain
04-22-2012, 01:37 AM
OK, I read the whole piece. My statement still stands that she didn't do much more than Rand. Besides, she had 300 years to do that.

OK I even agree that Caddy was awesome. But that doesn't give her license to treat Rand like an unruly kid. After all he is the DR. Her treatment of rand tells a lot about the general AS attitude towards the DR.

Not really. Other Aes Sedai only saw him as a male channeler, in other words, an insane or soon to be insane all powerful Taveren. Cadsuane saw a young man that was losing himself due to the taint, pressures of saving the world, and of having everyone that was not Aiel or old friend bow to his authority. She tried to be his reality check (in admittedly harsh and bully-ish ways) in order to keep him from straying too far.

Yes his power made her nervous, as it would make pretty much anyone short of Moridin, Lanfear, or the DO fairly nervous. But otherwise, she tried her version of "tough love" in order to keep him in line. The other Aes Sedai were either terrified of coming near him for various reasons, or thought that he should be shielded, chained, and kept as little more than a barking dog unntil The Last Battle..

fionwe1987
04-22-2012, 03:04 AM
OK I even agree that Caddy was awesome. But that doesn't give her license to treat Rand like an unruly kid. After all he is the DR. Her treatment of rand tells a lot about the general AS attitude towards the DR.
Except it doesn't. The general AS attitude has been that such a powerful ta'veren could mess things up too much, and destroy stability. Aes Sedai like Cadsuane, Moiraine and Egwene have seen that that destruction of stability is necessary to winning the Last Battle, and have worked to facilitate it. None of them has gleefully been at his side encouraging him to do so, but they have largely left him to do his thing when it comes to changing the way the world works.

With Cadsuane, the problem she had wasn't what Rand was doing. It was how he was doing it. And unless you read tGS and ToM with your eyes closed, there's no way you can deny that Rand was bungling it.

As for calling him "boy" and treating him with no respect... do read her encounter with Sorelia in tPoD again. It is made clear why she behaves this way. Most Aes Sedai approached Rand looking reasonable and nice, then tried to backstab him in one way or another, making him deeply distrust them. Cadsauane instead decided to openly confront and belittle him so that he could feel at ease about her with respect to her wanting to manipulate him. No one who wanted to use him for their own agenda would behave that way with him, and that is what she wanted him to understand.

What's more, her method worked. Rand did ask her to be his adviser, and he did end up realizing that if he gave her fair warning that he was going to do something, no matter her personal opinion on it, she would help him. Then Semirhage happened, of course...

gholam
04-22-2012, 07:37 AM
Not really. Other Aes Sedai only saw him as a male channeler, in other words, an insane or soon to be insane all powerful Taveren. Cadsuane saw a young man that was losing himself due to the taint, pressures of saving the world, and of having everyone that was not Aiel or old friend bow to his authority. She tried to be his reality check (in admittedly harsh and bully-ish ways) in order to keep him from straying too far.

Yes his power made her nervous, as it would make pretty much anyone short of Moridin, Lanfear, or the DO fairly nervous. But otherwise, she tried her version of "tough love" in order to keep him in line. The other Aes Sedai were either terrified of coming near him for various reasons, or thought that he should be shielded, chained, and kept as little more than a barking dog unntil The Last Battle..

Hmm... seems reasonable enough. That might absolve Cadsuane. Yet the WT should have had a plan in place for dealing with the DR. After all they all knew that that was definitely going to happen.

Davian93
04-22-2012, 02:57 PM
We have a thread for this...which is why I'm moving this derail onto it.

GonzoTheGreat
04-23-2012, 03:38 AM
Hmm... seems reasonable enough. That might absolve Cadsuane. Yet the WT should have had a plan in place for dealing with the DR. After all they all knew that that was definitely going to happen.
Most of the members of the US Congress believes that Jesus will return (eventually, sometime), yet as far as I know, they do not have any kind of official plan for that eventuality at all. I don't think even the Vatican has an official "transfer of power back to the Lord" scenario worked out.

So it seems quite believable that the AS wouldn't have prepared for this eventuality either.

gholam
04-23-2012, 08:42 AM
Most of the members of the US Congress believes that Jesus will return (eventually, sometime), yet as far as I know, they do not have any kind of official plan for that eventuality at all. I don't think even the Vatican has an official "transfer of power back to the Lord" scenario worked out.

So it seems quite believable that the AS wouldn't have prepared for this eventuality either.

The key word here is 'believe' against 'know'. Do they know Jesus is retuning? Do they have a set of prophecies to be fulfilled as proof that he has returned?

Rand's case is different. Unlike vague beliefs about Jesus' return, the DR has a set of signs to prove that he has returned.

We prepare for eventualities like earthquakes, fire accidents and we don't prepare for alien invasion.

Davian93
04-23-2012, 09:05 AM
The key word here is 'believe' against 'know'. Do they know Jesus is retuning? Do they have a set of prophecies to be fulfilled as proof that he has returned?

Rand's case is different. Unlike vague beliefs about Jesus' return, the DR has a set of signs to prove that he has returned.

We prepare for eventualities like earthquakes, fire accidents and we don't prepare for alien invasion.

41% of Americans (http://motherjones.com/blue-marble/2011/05/world-ending-may-21-rapture)believe that Jesus will return. And yes, there is a set of prophecies to be fulfilled as proof...they call it the Book of Revelation. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation)

To that group, there is no difference between "believe" and "know"

gholam
04-23-2012, 10:19 AM
41% of Americans (http://motherjones.com/blue-marble/2011/05/world-ending-may-21-rapture)believe that Jesus will return. And yes, there is a set of prophecies to be fulfilled as proof...they call it the Book of Revelation. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation)

To that group, there is no difference between "believe" and "know"

But they are commoners. Not like AS. As for the Church not being prepared for the coming Jesus, Jesus is not supposed to be destructive in himself like the DR, who might go insane.

Davian93
04-23-2012, 10:22 AM
There is big a difference. We believe that God exists but we don't know. We believe there are alien life forms somewhere in the universe, we don't know.

I take it you havent spent a lot of time with members of the Religious Right...

gholam
04-23-2012, 10:49 AM
I take it you havent spent a lot of time with members of the Religious Right...

No, and here in India, most of us are not even aware that Jesus is supposed to return. See, that's the difference. Jesus' return affects only those who believe in him. The Dragon's return is foretold all across the known world and even in Shara.