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Tomp
04-25-2012, 02:09 PM
I have thought about this a little.

A small spoiler warning for those infidels who hasn't read ToM yet.


We know that Loial will be talking at the Great Stump, trying to convince the Ogier to fight in the last battle instead of running away.
He will probably succeed in that, although the Ogier will be stuck in their ways and not easily persuaded.

Well then, how will they fight.
They have no, or very little battle training.

I think that they will do something similar as was described in Rand's past lives when he walked among the columns in Rhuidean.

I also think that the Tinkers will be involved. They will find their song and will sing it together with the Ogier.
The Tinkers have not done much in this book series, except provide the story element for the Aiel history.

I don't have anything to back it up with except my gut feeling.

I know that several of you are more steeped in WoT lore.
Whereas I am a fanatic, you are borderline psycotic. But, in a good way. :D

Zombie Sammael
04-25-2012, 02:26 PM
I have thought about this a little.

A small spoiler warning for those infidels who hasn't read ToM yet.


We know that Loial will be talking at the Great Stump, trying to convince the Ogier to fight in the last battle instead of running away.
He will probably succeed in that, although the Ogier will be stuck in their ways and not easily persuaded.

Well then, how will they fight.
They have no, or very little battle training.

There is at least one group of Ogier who have at least a little experience of battle: the Seanchan Deathwatch Guards. How much contact, if any, they have with the present day Randland Ogier is unknown. It's possible they have none, but it's also possible there is communication between them. I've always found the Ogier Gardeners fascinating; why choose to submit to the Seanchan Empress? Why abandon the historical links between Ogier and Aes Sedai to support collaring? What did the Seanchan Aes Sedai do to anger the Ogier and bring the mountains down on their own heads?

I think that they will do something similar as was described in Rand's past lives when he walked among the columns in Rhuidean.

I also think that the Tinkers will be involved. They will find their song and will sing it together with the Ogier.
The Tinkers have not done much in this book series, except provide the story element for the Aiel history.

I don't have anything to back it up with except my gut feeling.

I know that several of you are more steeped in WoT lore.
Whereas I am a fanatic, you are borderline psycotic. But, in a good way. :D

There is actually a theory (http://theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=145&theo=2803) about this.

Davian93
04-25-2012, 02:28 PM
Off the wall theory: The Seanchan Ogier/Deathwatch Guard are the true power in Seanchan and the Empress, may she live forever, is just their puppet.

Sure, there's zero evidence in the books for such a theory but I'm throwing it out there anyway.

Tomp
04-25-2012, 02:37 PM
There is at least one group of Ogier who have at least a little experience of battle: the Seanchan Deathwatch Guards. How much contact, if any, they have with the present day Randland Ogier is unknown. It's possible they have none, but it's also possible there is communication between them. I've always found the Ogier Gardeners fascinating; why choose to submit to the Seanchan Empress? Why abandon the historical links between Ogier and Aes Sedai to support collaring? What did the Seanchan Aes Sedai do to anger the Ogier and bring the mountains down on their own heads?

I wouldn't be surprised if the Ogier was forced to send young males to the empire's surface in exchange for using steddings within the seanchan empire.

After a couple of hundred years it became a normal way of doing things. Maybe some old Ogier still remember a time before servitude.


There is actually a theory (http://theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=145&theo=2803) about this.

I wouldn't say this is the idea I put forward. The one you linked to goes way beyond that and is kind of nutty.
I know it was last years looney theories winner.

Daemin
04-27-2012, 10:09 AM
Its mentioned in one of the later books that the Ogier deathwatch guards are not property like the human ones, and that the arrangement is private between the Ogier and the Empress. I'm thinking that rules out any argument that they are slaves.

Cortar
04-27-2012, 10:23 AM
Its mentioned in one of the later books that the Ogier deathwatch guards are not property like the human ones, and that the arrangement is private between the Ogier and the Empress. I'm thinking that rules out any argument that they are slaves.

Just because they claim they aren't slaves doesn't actually make them not slaves

maleshub
04-27-2012, 01:32 PM
Just because they claim they aren't slaves doesn't actually make them not slaves

Unless there is a text or explanation of the agreement between the Empress and Seanchan Ogier, then claiming they are slaves is pure speculation.

Ogier can neutralize the Empire's greatest strength: Damane. And they can provide excellent and unique services to the Empire.

My assumption is that they are "honored citizens" in the Empire. And they provide a set number of Gardeners to the Throne. These Gardeners change every few years to overcome the longing.

Davian93
04-27-2012, 01:38 PM
Unless there is a text or explanation of the agreement between the Empress and Seanchan Ogier, then claiming they are slaves is pure speculation.

Ogier can neutralize the Empire's greatest strength: Damane. And they can provide excellent and unique services to the Empire.

My assumption is that they are "honored citizens" in the Empire. And they provide a set number of Gardeners to the Throne. These Gardeners change every few years to overcome the longing.

Couple minor problems here:

1. Ogier arent immune to channeling unless they're in their stedding.

2. Seanchan Ogier dont suffer from the Longing.

Oden
04-27-2012, 01:40 PM
My assumption is that they are "honored citizens" in the Empire. And they provide a set number of Gardeners to the Throne. These Gardeners change every few years to overcome the longing.

They don't need to visit the Stedding as the Ogier east of the Aryth Ocean do. WEEK 3 QUESTION
How do the Seanchan Ogier cope with the Longing, given that their duties in the Deathwatch Guard take them overseas? Are there many stedding in Seanchan?
ROBERT JORDAN
There are many more stedding in Seanchan than there are in the part of the world where the story is taking place, and that is why the Seanchan Ogier don't suffer from the Longing. Because there are so many more stedding, they were able to find them more easily even during the Breaking and therefore never had the very extended separation that Ogier on this side of the Aryth Ocean had, though they seldom were able to settle in one for very long until the Breaking ended.

maleshub
04-27-2012, 02:22 PM
Thanks for the corrections, Oden and Davian; and for teaching me something that I was unaware of.

My reference to neutralizing damane was meant for the steddings, not the Ogier. They are immune to damane inside the steddings.

On the original point, I just ran into the quote about the status of Ogier Gardeners.

Path of Daggers; Kadere PoV in the battle against Rand: "Ogier Gardeners were not marked or owned; but that was between them and the Empress."

Tomp
04-27-2012, 02:26 PM
1. Ogier arent immune to channeling unless they're in their stedding.


Do we know this?

Have there been channeling done at Ogiers in the books?

They are bound to and maybe even part of the stedding.

Davian93
04-27-2012, 02:29 PM
Do we know this?

Have there been channeling done at Ogiers in the books?

They are bound to and maybe even part of the stedding.

A complete and utter assumption that no creature is immune to channeling outside of the gholam. I would think it would be noted somewhere if Ogier had a similar protection outside of their residence within the Stedding (which itself is not complete protection given the existence of Wells for channeling).

maleshub
04-27-2012, 02:36 PM
My assumption is that there is protection or immunity from OP weaves directed at the person (shields, air wraps and gags, and the like); but elemental attacks are different: lightning and fireballs.

Mat died by lightning when Rahvin hit him; and Joline's fireball in Hindersap (sp.) didn't disappear when it came near him. If anyone has a reference on the subject, I would love to read it.

If elemental attacks are an exception, then Ogier would not be immune to them. But that leaves the question of "was the gholem immune to elemental attacks?"

Davian93
04-27-2012, 02:57 PM
My assumption is that there is protection or immunity from OP weaves directed at the person (shields, air wraps and gags, and the like); but elemental attacks are different: lightning and fireballs.

Mat died by lightning when Rahvin hit him; and Joline's fireball in Hindersap (sp.) didn't disappear when it came near him. If anyone has a reference on the subject, I would love to read it.

If elemental attacks are an exception, then Ogier would not be immune to them. But that leaves the question of "was the gholem immune to elemental attacks?"

I think if someone lobbed a stone into a Stedding, it would obviously hit/kill whatever it landed on...the same as if they caused a lightning strike.

Other than that, I dont see how that helps Ogier outside the stedding.

maleshub
04-27-2012, 03:04 PM
I think if someone lobbed a stone into a Stedding, it would obviously hit/kill whatever it landed on...the same as if they caused a lightning strike.

Other than that, I dont see how that helps Ogier outside the stedding.

I am not arguing that Ogier are immune to the OP outside the stedding. I never intended to say that; and I don't believe they are.

My post was an aside on immunity or protection from the OP. It seems that elemental attacks with the OP kill persons with something like Mat's terangreal. Would these elemental attacks also strike persons with other kinds of protection (if there are any - like the gholam)?

Davian93
04-27-2012, 03:08 PM
I am not arguing that Ogier are immune to the OP outside the stedding. I never intended to say that; and I don't believe they are.

My post was an aside on immunity or protection from the OP. It seems that elemental attacks with the OP kill persons with something like Mat's terangreal. Would these elemental attacks also strike persons with other kinds of protection (if there are any - like the gholam)?

I'm sure if you threw a rock with the OP at a gholam, it would maybe slow it down. The problem would be hitting it as they are fast and it making any bit of a difference given that stabbing one doesnt matter at all so I doubt hitting it with a rock would either...the same with a lightning bolt.

Flinn Sedai
04-27-2012, 03:13 PM
I am not arguing that Ogier are immune to the OP outside the stedding. I never intended to say that; and I don't believe they are.

My post was an aside on immunity or protection from the OP. It seems that elemental attacks with the OP kill persons with something like Mat's terangreal. Would these elemental attacks also strike persons with other kinds of protection (if there are any - like the gholam)?

It has to do with whether it is direct, or indirect.

For example, the reason the lightning was still able to kill Mat, was because the channeling was directed at the clouds, to cause real lightning. Balefire, on the other hand, disappears, because the actual weaves are hitting him (or rather, not).

If you tear up the earth under his feet, he'll die. If you try to set him on fire, he'll be fine.

GonzoTheGreat
04-28-2012, 05:05 AM
If you tear up the earth under his feet, he'll die. If you try to set him on fire, he'll be fine.
Set the earth under him on fire, then. Let him try tap dancing on a lava lake.

Swordcrowned
04-28-2012, 09:25 AM
A complete and utter assumption that no creature is immune to channeling outside of the gholam. I would think it would be noted somewhere if Ogier had a similar protection outside of their residence within the Stedding (which itself is not complete protection given the existence of Wells for channeling).

Does a Well work in a stedding? We know that it works in Far Madding, but the Guardians only block you from accessing the One Power. It doesn't work the same as a stedding.

Flinn Sedai
04-28-2012, 09:30 AM
Does a Well work in a stedding? We know that it works in Far Madding, but the Guardians only block you from accessing the One Power. It doesn't work the same as a stedding.

It's been heavily implied that it does.

Swordcrowned
04-28-2012, 09:43 AM
It's been heavily implied that it does.

Really? Not that I dont believe you, I just dont recall anything in the books implying that. And I also dont read all the interviews like alot of people here.

Flinn Sedai
04-28-2012, 09:46 AM
Really? Not that I dont believe you, I just dont recall anything in the books implying that. And I also dont read all the interviews like alot of people here.

I'll try to pull some quotes

Flinn Sedai
04-28-2012, 10:23 AM
I couldn't find a definitive quote either way. Mostly just quotes in the books, and from interviews saying Far Madding basically duplicated what the stedding did with the OP.

That said, here's the best quote I could find on the matter.

"I've heard of this place," Naeff said, riding up, close-cropped, dark brown hair ruffling in the wind. He narrowed his eyes, rectangular face dissatisfied. "It's like a stedding, only not as safe." Far Madding's massive ter'angreal—known as the Guardian—created invisible protective bubbles that blocked people from touching the One Power. That could be worked around through the use of a very specialized ter'angreal, one of which Nynaeve happened to be wearing. But it would help only slightly. The army looked close enough to be within the bubble that prevented men from channeling, which extended about a mile out around the city.

Now, that's not very conclusive, but it at least implies that the reason Far Madding is not as safe, is because Far Madding can be worked around with a well. On the other hand, how would Nynaeve know?

For the moment, I'm leaning towards your call of it not being possible, but the evidence is far from conclusive.

Swordcrowned
04-28-2012, 10:35 AM
Now, that's not very conclusive, but it at least implies that the reason Far Madding is not as safe, is because Far Madding can be worked around with a well. On the other hand, how would Nynaeve know?

For the moment, I'm leaning towards your call of it not being possible, but the evidence is far from conclusive.


With the course all the characters are on right now, I guess it doesnt really matter, unless it starts to matter in the series. And if that happens, we will have the definitive answer.

Flinn Sedai
04-28-2012, 10:37 AM
With the course all the characters are on right now, I guess it doesnt really matter, unless it starts to matter in the series. And if that happens, we will have the definitive answer.

Might be worth bringing up in a Q&A, though.

*looks pointedly at the people who actually talk to Sanderson*

Davian93
04-28-2012, 12:34 PM
Asked and answered kids:


Interview: Oct 15th, 2011
NY ComicCon Report - Ted Herman (Paraphrased)
Ted Herman
Would a circle be broken by entering Far Madding or a stedding?
Brandon Sanderson
75% chance of no. It would be like using a Well and entering those locations (which would work)

Flinn Sedai
04-28-2012, 12:36 PM
Asked and answered kids:

Good call. I was looking through the interviews, and I couldn't find it. Only vague things comparing them. Thanks for the reference.

Lost One
12-15-2012, 10:35 PM
I had been wondering about the Gardeners, if there were steddings in Seanchan and if they suffered the Longing. This has been answered for me. Thanks guys..