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yks 6nnetu hing
04-26-2012, 04:52 AM
It's a bit of a long shot but hear me out.

It is my theory that the pillar ter'angreal used to initiate Wise Ones and Clan Chiefs has an (in-built??) function to glimpse into a mirror world, the definition of which mirror world is determined by the identity of the user.

We know that going through the pillars reveals the genealogical history of the user - ancestor to ancestor, moving along the history line backwards. From Aviendha's POV we've seen a (possible) future, moving again along the genealogical line, but starting from the end of the line and moving back towards the present. I do not think it is a future as is set in the Pattern already (seeing as that is changeable based on individual actions) rather, I think perhaps the future Aviendha saw was from a mirror world in which time moves much faster than in Randland and is therefore set. In that mirror world, what Avi saw is 100% reality.

There's even a hint on this in the way the pillars are described:

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 24 - Rhuidean
The way those thin shafts of glass caught the bluish light, refracting and reflecting, merely looking too hard was enough to give him a headache. He turned away, wandering back the way he had come, uneasily eyeing the ter'angreal-or whatever they were-filling the plaza. What was he doing there? Why?


Theoretically there are infinite numbers of mirror worlds, worlds that could have been, worlds in which one or more actions/events/decisions went differently than in Randland. Perhaps what Aviendha saw was a very specific mirror world where certain things happened in certain ways - a mirror world that came into existence (so to speak) by her action of stepping into the pillars the second time, fracturing away from Randland into its own realm of possibility.

I got RAFO'd on the question of whether the pillars were only usable for Aviendha - specifically for her. There is good cause to think that after she went through the pillars the second time, the ter'angreal was rendered useless:

TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 49 - Court of the Sun
There had to be more. Angry, she stood up and took another step. Nothing happened. She walked all the way to the edge of the pillars, then turned, furious. "Show me more," she demanded. "Show me what I did to cause this! It is my lineage that brought us ruin! What is my part in it?" She walked into the pillars again. Nothing. They seemed dead. She reached out and touched one, but there was no life. No hum, no sense of Power. She closed her eyes, squeezing one more tear from the corner of each eye. The tears trailed down her face, leaving a line of cold wetness on her cheeks.
This, considering her Talent of reckognizing what a ter'angreal does is quite telling. She should be able to pick up a vibe from them, but perhaps they are now unusable for her while others could still go through them. I cannot recall and I looked but couldn't find if she was able to read ter'angreal specifically designed for men. if not then it would mean that she can only read ter'angreal that she herself could use, however if she could read a male-only ter'angreal then it would mean that if there was any power left in those pillars, then she would've sensed it and by not sensing anything we could conclude that they're dead.

As to what happened to the pillar-ter'angreal to enable her to go through a second time, there are two possibilities:
1) they were always that way, Aviendha was simply the first to contradict strong tradition and attempt the second journey
2) Aviendha somehow changed the ter'angreal - she even asks this of herself:

TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 48 - Near Avendesora
She took a hesitant step away from the glass columns, and nothing happened. No further visions. Disturbed, she began to walk from the plaza. Then she slowed. Hesitantly she turned back. The columns stood in the dimming light, quiet and alone, seeming to buzz with an unseen energy. Was there more? That one vision seemed so disconnected from the others she'd seen. If she passed into the columns' midst again, would she repeat what she'd been given before? Or . . . had she, perhaps, changed something with her Talent?


So, open questions galore. As to the visions themselves, I do not believe they were a reading of the Randland Pattern but rather a visit to a mirror world.

Weird Harold
04-26-2012, 05:13 AM
It is my theory that the pillar ter'angreal used to initiate Wise Ones and Clan Chiefs has an (in-built??) function to glimpse into a mirror world, the definition of which mirror world is determined by the identity of the user.

We know that going through the pillars reveals the genealogical history of the user - ancestor to ancestor, moving along the history line backwards.

Why would the Columns be constructed with two modes of operation. We know that the Columns showed an absolute past -- whether it followed threads or read the ancestry from the candidate's blood. In other words, there is absolutely no reason to believe that the original function had any connection to the Mirror Worlds, Worlds of If, Parallel Worlds or anything except the candidate's actual, absolute, ancestry.

Expecting a connection to mirror worlds or anything except the actual, absolute, bloodline of the candidate is like expecting your car to fly because you put the transmission in reverse.

yks 6nnetu hing
04-26-2012, 05:24 AM
Why would the Columns be constructed with two modes of operation. We know that the Columns showed an absolute past -- whether it followed threads or read the ancestry from the candidate's blood. In other words, there is absolutely no reason to believe that the original function had any connection to the Mirror Worlds, Worlds of If, Parallel Worlds or anything except the candidate's actual, absolute, ancestry. because the Pattern is not pre-determined. It's also possible that I'm reading too much into this but I was seriously bothered by the timelines in Avi's vision, considering channeler's lifespans, even with the Oathrod-limit, there just wasn't enough time between the visions as they jumped across generations. Though, of course, it's possible that RJ/BS made a little continuity error there. Another explanation (in which there is no continuity error) would be that that mirror world had a slightly different lifespan dynamic from Randland.

I think that if the columns were created with visibility in both directions (past AND future) then they were made so that the future visions option only became available once the past was viewed. Consider the Jenn Aiel who created the ter'angreal in the first place - they would have definitely wanted to build such a function into it.

Expecting a connection to mirror worlds or anything except the actual, absolute, bloodline of the candidate is like expecting your car to fly because you put the transmission in reverse.
as I said, in the Mirror World I believe she saw, it WAS her actual, absolute bloodline. 100% solid and real.

Zombie Sammael
04-26-2012, 06:51 AM
The function of the columns in showing the future is still very similar to the way in which they showed the past. I'm of the opinion that what they were doing was showing what the future would have been if they hadn't shown Aviendha that future. The very act of prophecy changes the future, of course. So in a way, what they were showing was a past future. Or days of future past. :-P

yks 6nnetu hing
04-26-2012, 06:56 AM
The function of the columns in showing the future is still very similar to the way in which they showed the past. I'm of the opinion that what they were doing was showing what the future would have been if they hadn't shown Aviendha that future. The very act of prophecy changes the future, of course. So in a way, what they were showing was a past future. Or days of future past. :-P

therefore, not real world future, but something else.

Zombie Sammael
04-26-2012, 07:00 AM
therefore, not real world future, but something else.

Yes, but also not a mirror world as such (sorry). More like a computer predicting based on data it already has, but failing to take account of the prediction as a factor, and thus coming out with an error. A better analogy - like trying to add together all the sums that have ever been added together, without taking into account that it also needs to add the sum it is presently calculating to the total.

yks 6nnetu hing
04-26-2012, 07:05 AM
Yes, but also not a mirror world as such (sorry). More like a computer predicting based on data it already has, but failing to take account of the prediction as a factor, and thus coming out with an error. A better analogy - like trying to add together all the sums that have ever been added together, without taking into account that it also needs to add the sum it is presently calculating to the total.

you're diverging from WoT. invalid.


Date: 2005-09-04 | Location: DragonCon 2005
Type: Q and A Session | Questioner: Unknown

Q: How did your background in physics influence how you structured the world of the wheel of time?I was interested in how the physics like with the Mirror Worlds, the world of if?

A: Jordan: Largely it was to make things realistic, as realistic as I can. Background in physics and engineering; I also tried to structure channeling as if it were a science or technology. No eye of Newton, hair of dog. There are real limits, there are rules, there are technological structures to channeling which I think are fairly obvious to anyone who looks at it. That was the major influence. Plus making sure that I see that everything is real. Well if I bring about a blacksmith, well I don't know anything about blacksmithing, but I was able to get some nineteenth century books on blacksmithing, and once I had written the scenes I sent them to a women I met that was a blacksmith and Ferrier, and she said you need to do this and you need to do that, but otherwise it is okay.Harriet: This woman, was t the time the only woman blacksmith on the high council of American smithing. She made a lot of the stuff at Billy Graham's in North Carolina, but she wrote wonderful comments back and said, if you want Perrin to ever have children, you must have a leather apron, which was among her other good bits.Jordan: The Mirror Worlds of course come right out of physics, and the possibility of (mumble) universes and all of the rest of it. But frankly while I don't follow the literature, I haven't for a number of years, I occasionally get stuck on panels with physicists and I am supposed to discuss physics which I am twenty five years out of date. But I find that I can hold my own, although I do not have a doctorate or did I ever intend to get one, I went to work instead. I can hold my own with the PHd's in physics when they are talking theoretical physics if I stop talking physics, at least from my point of view, and start talking theology and this troubles me ...

Flinn Sedai
04-26-2012, 07:28 AM
Wow, I was just having a similar discussion on another thread, on the same topic. It's worth mentioning, though, that there are (from my poor memory), unclear differentiations in WoT between Parallel Worlds, and Mirror Worlds.

In any event, it seems that WoT cosmology operates under the Multiple Worlds theory. There is some minor evidence supporting the Copenhagen interpretation, but it seems to support, far more, Multiple Worlds.

yks 6nnetu hing
04-26-2012, 07:39 AM
Wow, I was just having a similar discussion on another thread, on the same topic. It's worth mentioning, though, that there are (from my poor memory), unclear differentiations in WoT between Parallel Worlds, and Mirror Worlds.

that's not true. There is a clear distinction, at the very least in the interviews. Parallel worlds are those that do not share Randland's history and/or flora/fauna. For example, the Ogier come from a parallel world and the Snakes and Foxes are each from a parallel world.

Mirror worlds represent Randland where something has gone to a major or minor extent differently - for example Hawkwing lost the war or instead of naming the infant Rand, Tam thought that Narg would be a good name. There are infinite number of mirror worlds but an unknown number of parallel worlds. Each parallel world can have their own mirror worlds.

Flinn Sedai
04-26-2012, 07:40 AM
that's not true. There is a clear distinction, at the very least in the interviews. Parallel worlds are those that do not share Randland's history and/or flora/fauna. For example, the Ogier come from a parallel world and the Snakes and Foxes are each from a parallel world.

Mirror worlds represent Randland where something has gone to a major or minor extent differently - for example Hawkwing lost the war or instead of naming the infant Rand, Tam thought that Narg would be a good name. There are infinite number of mirror worlds but an unknown number of parallel worlds. Each parallel world can have their own mirror worlds.

Well, now you made me feel silly, thankyouverymuch.

Terez
04-26-2012, 07:47 AM
In your defense, RJ mixed it up himself, which is probably where the memory of unclear distinctions come from. The distinctions are clear, but RJ wasn't always clear on which was which.

Also, I believe I mentioned the Mirror World thing at the Future of the Aiel panel, but maybe not. I know I talked about it at some point over the weekend. I think all the ter'angreal that show future scenarios use the Mirror Worlds, including the Rings and the Acceptatron.

Flinn Sedai
04-26-2012, 07:49 AM
It seems that there is a bit of confusion on the matter. RJ called the world of the grolms a parallel world, at one point, and a mirror world at another point. The BWB points to the former, but later Maria indicates the latter.

It might just be some confusion on the answering end, but that was where I was getting the impression from.

Flinn Sedai
04-26-2012, 07:57 AM
In your defense, RJ mixed it up himself, which is probably where the memory of unclear distinctions come from. The distinctions are clear, but RJ wasn't always clear on which was which.

Also, I believe I mentioned the Mirror World thing at the Future of the Aiel panel, but maybe not. I know I talked about it at some point over the weekend. I think all the ter'angreal that show future scenarios use the Mirror Worlds, including the Rings and the Acceptatron.

Heh, yeah. I was just looking through the quotes, as you posted.

And while I would agree that the glass columns use the Mirror Worlds, some of the testing stuff in the Tower seems a lot more like a TAR thing. They could be Mirror worlds (which is what I thought, when I first saw it), but it always seemed like the Sisters had some control over what happened in different testings.

Especially since the testings hold some of the TAR properties. Coming back with real damage sometimes, and not, others. Burning out. All that stuff seems like it has to do with how much you accept what is going on in the test, and the pre-conditions they give you.

yks 6nnetu hing
04-26-2012, 08:01 AM
In your defense, RJ mixed it up himself, which is probably where the memory of unclear distinctions come from. The distinctions are clear, but RJ wasn't always clear on which was which.

Also, I believe I mentioned the Mirror World thing at the Future of the Aiel panel, but maybe not. I know I talked about it at some point over the weekend. I think all the ter'angreal that show future scenarios use the Mirror Worlds, including the Rings and the Acceptatron.

yeah, I think so too, particularly in the Accepted-test there seems to be a possibility that if the testee doesn't go through the gateway, they may actually remain and live (happily or not) in that reality they saw. The way back comes but once.

This is totally different in the test for AS though, where other channelers are actively controlling the scenario's the person is going through.

Zombie Sammael
04-26-2012, 08:03 AM
you're diverging from WoT. invalid.

Not really diverging greatly. We know the ter'angreal is capable of showing past histories, so in some way it's sensible to assume it records data. What I suggest it is then doing is extrapolating out to show a possible future but is unable to take account of its own involvement (or not, as the case may be; this isn't actually necessary). The alternative suggestion is that the ter'angreal is somehow connected to mirror worlds, which there isn't evidence of it doing before - unless you think each of the past histories it has shown has been a minorly divergent mirror, which would be interesting, but as you acknowledge seems like a long shot.

So what we have is a ter'angreal which doesn't have any known interaction with mirror worlds prior to Avi's vision, but has demonstrated an ability to show a possible future in Avi's vision, and may then have deactivated. Aviendha posits that her Talent has altered the ter'angreal in some way, and that may well have happened; there may be a similar example during Egwene's accepted test, since the resonance may have come from her talent as a Dreamer rather than the ring, especially since the ter'angreal showed at least some things that then did come true.

What I would suggest is that it remembers the history of those who have passed through it before, either as a prerequisite of its function or as a side-effect of it. Those memories have to come from somewhere, but on the other hand, it appears that in the world of WOT there is such a thing as genetic memory; see for instance Mat's knowledge of the Old Tongue prior to visiting the Finns, or Perrin's use of it in TEOTW.

Avi's talent then alters the ter'angreal. This actually in some way touches on my idea of the future being altered merely by the act of prophecy, since Avi's talent is to observe the function of the ter'angreal; she may herself have altered it by observing it. As a result of this, it is broken, but not before it malfunctions for a time, by showing Avi a future extrapolated from the data it has already collected.

My intention with the examples wasn't to go outside the world of WOT, as I hope that demonstrates, but to give an understandable example of how I think the ter'angreal is working. If I had wanted to go outside of WOT, I'd have referred to how the Animus works in Assassin's Creed; they're actually really quite similar devices, both taking their information, as it were, from genetic memory.

yks 6nnetu hing
04-26-2012, 08:12 AM
Not really diverging greatly. We know the ter'angreal is capable of showing past histories, so in some way it's sensible to assume it records data. What I suggest it is then doing is extrapolating out to show a possible future but is unable to take account of its own involvement (or not, as the case may be; this isn't actually necessary). The alternative suggestion is that the ter'angreal is somehow connected to mirror worlds, which there isn't evidence of it doing before - unless you think each of the past histories it has shown has been a minorly divergent mirror, which would be interesting, but as you acknowledge seems like a long shot.

So what we have is a ter'angreal which doesn't have any known interaction with mirror worlds prior to Avi's vision, but has demonstrated an ability to show a possible future in Avi's vision, and may then have deactivated. Aviendha posits that her Talent has altered the ter'angreal in some way, and that may well have happened; there may be a similar example during Egwene's accepted test, since the resonance may have come from her talent as a Dreamer rather than the ring, especially since the ter'angreal showed at least some things that then did come true.

What I would suggest is that it remembers the history of those who have passed through it before, either as a prerequisite of its function or as a side-effect of it. Those memories have to come from somewhere, but on the other hand, it appears that in the world of WOT there is such a thing as genetic memory; see for instance Mat's knowledge of the Old Tongue prior to visiting the Finns, or Perrin's use of it in TEOTW.

Avi's talent then alters the ter'angreal. This actually in some way touches on my idea of the future being altered merely by the act of prophecy, since Avi's talent is to observe the function of the ter'angreal; she may herself have altered it by observing it. As a result of this, it is broken, but not before it malfunctions for a time, by showing Avi a future extrapolated from the data it has already collected.

My intention with the examples wasn't to go outside the world of WOT, as I hope that demonstrates, but to give an understandable example of how I think the ter'angreal is working. If I had wanted to go outside of WOT, I'd have referred to how the Animus works in Assassin's Creed; they're actually really quite similar devices, both taking their information, as it were, from genetic memory.

it is one of the 2 possibilities that Avi changed the ter'angreal.

However, I think it's much more likely that the pillar-ter'angreal always had that function (that being the other possibility I mentioned in my OP)

Zombie Sammael
04-26-2012, 08:25 AM
it is one of the 2 possibilities that Avi changed the ter'angreal.

However, I think it's much more likely that the pillar-ter'angreal always had that function (that being the other possibility I mentioned in my OP)

Sure, but I respectfully disagree that it's much more likely they always had that function, based on the fact that after passing through them and viewing the future it appears to an expert that they are broken (the real test might be to get Elayne out there and see if she can make something that works in a similar way, or if they're just pretty glass columns with no OP effects now). That implies to me that they have been altered in some way; why else would they break? Note that in a similar example of a ter'angreal behaving in an unexpected way (Egwene's test) the strain does nearly destroy the ter'angreal:

The ter'angreal almost seemed to be trying to shut off the flow from saidar - or melt itself through the floor.

(emphasis mine)

A lot of people think that's the training ring, but it might well be her talent, or her talent plus the two ter'angreal. If it is the case that a particular talent can cause a ter'angreal to function in a way it's not designed for, then it stands to reason that Avi's talent could have a similar effect on the glass columns, causing them to malfunction and be rendered inert.

ETA: to be clear, Alanna does go on to say it's happened before with two ter'angreal that function in a similar way, but here we have a ter'angreal that uses TAR, a ter'angreal that allows the user to enter TAR, and a dreamwalker, so it's not wholly out of the question that a talent could have a similar effect, or be exacerbating the problem. Note that Avi's "see the use" talent isn't wholly unlike showing the past (of an object, rather than a person).

Zombie Sammael
04-26-2012, 10:10 AM
Because I am a nerd, I kept looking into this, and I found this quote:

Someone who wasn't Aiel could wander through those spires forever and never see a thing except the spires. He or she might think it was a monument, or maybe a work of art.

So that at least suggests the pillars are capable of recognising someone based on genes/lineage. If the genetic memory thing from TEOTW is still in play then this strengthens my theory a little, I think.

fionwe1987
04-26-2012, 10:24 AM
I don't think the Acceptatoron could have been reacting to Egwene. The reason? The Aes Sedai test Oval did not, and we have definite proof it has something to do with Dreamwalking. It didn't resonate to Egwene's presence at all.

Zombie Sammael
04-26-2012, 10:30 AM
I don't think the Acceptatoron could have been reacting to Egwene. The reason? The Aes Sedai test Oval did not, and we have definite proof it has something to do with Dreamwalking. It didn't resonate to Egwene's presence at all.

Egwene didn't actually enter the Aes Sedaitron though. But then, you could also say that about the ring; it was just in the same room.

yks 6nnetu hing
04-26-2012, 10:32 AM
Because I am a nerd, I kept looking into this, and I found this quote:



So that at least suggests the pillars are capable of recognising someone based on genes/lineage. If the genetic memory thing from TEOTW is still in play then this strengthens my theory a little, I think.

Interesting. Again, I wish I could remember/know if Avi could sense (the use of) ter'angreal which she herself couldn't possibly use.

Zombie Sammael
04-26-2012, 10:42 AM
Interesting. Again, I wish I could remember/know if Avi could sense (the use of) ter'angreal which she herself couldn't possibly use.

I did a quick look into that and it doesn't seem it's a question we presently have a clear answer to, however, there is this:

INTERVIEW: Nov 15th, 2009
TGS Signing Report - Freelancer (Paraphrased)
QUESTION
Is the ter'angreal which Aviendha identifies as related to holes, and requiring a song to activate, the Talisman of Growing for the Ways?
BRANDON SANDERSON
(Huge grin) RAFO.

I obviously need to look at the books, but if it requires a song to activate and Avi doesn't know it, then she can't use it; if it is what the questioner thinks it is then it requires an Ogier song and she can't possibly use it, but is still able to identify it.

yks 6nnetu hing
04-26-2012, 10:50 AM
I did a quick look into that and it doesn't seem it's a question we presently have a clear answer to, however, there is this:



I obviously need to look at the books, but if it requires a song to activate and Avi doesn't know it, then she can't use it; if it is what the questioner thinks it is then it requires an Ogier song and she can't possibly use it, but is still able to identify it.

was the Talisman tuned to Ogier song? Because there's a very clear Old Aiel singing tradition. And they all sing in battle.

Zombie Sammael
04-26-2012, 10:59 AM
was the Talisman tuned to Ogier song? Because there's a very clear Old Aiel singing tradition. And they all sing in battle.

The BWB says it is triggered by "certain types of singing". Not sure what this means, but as it was given to the Ogier by the male AS, and based on the general leafy symbolism given to the Waygates, I reckon it's probably treesinging. But that's not definitive, especially since Brandon refused to answer the question.

Tamyrlin
04-26-2012, 11:18 AM
As I love the topic of Mirror Worlds and such and what we originally posited a long time ago about the Ter'angreal Testing Rings and such stuff that now seems likely if not factual regarding the use of Mirror Worlds to create T'A'R like dream states in which channelers are tested, I'd like to riff off of this and suggest the following:

We know that the Aiel were seeing their past in those columns...so what if what we call potential futures as seen in Aviendha's trip, what if she in fact is seeing the actual past, but much much further back, so far back, it circles back to the previous Turnings future, it being a Wheel and all. In other words, whatever change, whether initiated by Aviendha's talent, or the actual function of the Ter'angreal, the timeline of the past is pushed into the extreme past.

That's the first possibility. The second is as follows:

What if we are seeing Mirror Worlds, not ones that are pushing the envelope into the future already, but instead are Mirror Worlds that existed from, again, the far past, things the Wheel "knew" were possible back then, and perhaps very plausible?

The Wheel has all of this data, and while future Mirror Worlds do exist, I'm beginning to wonder if the majority of the system's future Mirror Worlds, are future in the sense as they are from a previous Turning. Now, I'm not suggesting actual Mirror Worlds regarding the future of this particular Turning do not exist, but that past/future Mirror Worlds of previous Turnings STILL exist, and Ter'angreal could be attuned to such, and that the Wheel could take advantage of such.

Zombie Sammael
04-26-2012, 11:23 AM
As I love the topic of Mirror Worlds and such and what we originally posited a long time ago about the Ter'angreal Testing Rings and such stuff that now seems likely if not factual regarding the use of Mirror Worlds to create T'A'R like dream states in which channelers are tested, I'd like to riff off of this and suggest the following:

We know that the Aiel were seeing their past in those columns...so what if what we call potential futures as seen in Aviendha's trip, what if she in fact is seeing the actual past, but much much further back, so far back, it circles back to the previous Turnings future, it being a Wheel and all. In other words, whatever change, whether initiated by Aviendha's talent, or the actual function of the Ter'angreal, the timeline of the past is pushed into the extreme past.

That's the first possibility. The second is as follows:

What if we are seeing Mirror Worlds, not ones that are pushing the envelope into the future already, but instead are Mirror Worlds that existed from, again, the far past, things the Wheel "knew" were possible back then, and perhaps very plausible?

The Wheel has all of this data, and while future Mirror Worlds do exist, I'm beginning to wonder if the majority of the system's future Mirror Worlds, are future in the sense as they are from a previous Turning. Now, I'm not suggesting actual Mirror Worlds regarding the future of this particular Turning do not exist, but that past/future Mirror Worlds of previous Turnings STILL exist, and Ter'angreal could be attuned to such, and that the Wheel could take advantage of such.

Those are both interesting. In the first case at least, it suggests that (if the genetic link is indeed as important as it appears) everyone is actually the ancestor of their own future self, which is an amusing idea!

fionwe1987
04-26-2012, 11:23 AM
I'm not sure... would past turnings of the Wheel be so similar to this one that all characters have the same names?

Davian93
04-26-2012, 11:24 AM
I'm not sure... would past turnings of the Wheel be so similar to this one that all characters have the same names?

That was my thought as well...I dont see it flying as a result of that. Turnings are similar but not exact replicas of the previous or even previous previous turning.

Tamyrlin
04-26-2012, 11:28 AM
I'm not sure... would past turnings of the Wheel be so similar to this one that all characters have the same names?

The use of Rand's name...does make it very unlikely to me that it could be the previous Turning. Bummer. While not impossible, it seems very unlikely that Rand al'Thor would be Rand al'Thor in the previous Turning. It would have made more sense to me, especially if they had used titles like "The Dragon". I may ask a verification question of Brandon some day to completely rule it out.

So now we are back to future Mirror Worlds; she doesn't interact with the worlds in any way, so it can't really be associated with the testing rings and testing arches, but I'd assume that all of those Ter'angreal were made using similar programming as far as using data from Mirror Worlds.

Oden
04-26-2012, 11:33 AM
The use of Loial's name credited as a writer from the fourth age (I think, could have been the third, it does not matter as it is irrelevant for the point) does imply that the DO will be beaten or that names are the same between turnings.

Zombie Sammael
04-26-2012, 11:44 AM
So now we are back to future Mirror Worlds; she doesn't interact with the worlds in any way, so it can't really be associated with the testing rings and testing arches, but I'd assume that all of those Ter'angreal were made using similar programming as far as using data from Mirror Worlds.

Or alternately that it's not a mirror world at all. Sorry, just had to make it clear that's still my position.

A good question to establish it might be phrased: "Are altered names such as "Arthur" for Artur Hawkwing (or your preferred example from the end of TGH) the result of corruptions in document/stories or the result of small changes between each turning of the Wheel?"

Tamyrlin
04-26-2012, 11:58 AM
Or alternately that it's not a mirror world at all. Sorry, just had to make it clear that's still my position.


This is your proposition right?

Yes, but also not a mirror world as such (sorry). More like a computer predicting based on data it already has, but failing to take account of the prediction as a factor, and thus coming out with an error. A better analogy - like trying to add together all the sums that have ever been added together, without taking into account that it also needs to add the sum it is presently calculating to the total.

The Mirror Worlds are a mechanism of the Wheel. And are variations based on factors, data, which is part of the Wheel. Mirror Worlds are the mechanism the Wheel uses to balance itself. How else would it know when to insert Heroes, when to be more actively involved.

INTERVIEW: Sep 4th, 2005
DragonCon Report - Matt Hatch (Verbatim)

QUESTION
At the end of The Great Hunt when Rand and Ishamael were fighting in the air above Falme, they appeared in the sky over many places and my question is whether this is something done by the One Power or something done by the Creator? How did they appear in the sky?

ROBERT JORDAN
An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasn't the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out ta'veren, can spit out Heroes as a self-correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were false Dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those false Dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one Dragon.


Now you are suggesting, I presume, that it was simply something created out of data, but it is data pieced together in such a way as to appear as a video of sorts, but the distinction is very implausible (or an unnecessary distinction as the information would have come from the Mirror World tool at the Wheel's disposal), unless it was a device created by the Wheel. If the columns were created by the Wheel, I'd agree that it could be a video like device of data splicing. However, as it is a Ter'angreal made by Aes Sedai and they could somehow program their device to hack the Wheel's data in such a way, makes them essentially equal with the Creator.

Now, you could say PLE, but that would get you many ugly stares, in essence that the Wheel directly tampered with the Ter'angreal and fed it data (gleaned from it's MW tool).

Zombie Sammael
04-26-2012, 12:13 PM
This is your proposition right?



The Mirror Worlds are a mechanism of the Wheel. And are variations based on factors, data, which is part of the Wheel. Mirror Worlds are the mechanism the Wheel uses to balance itself. How else would it know when to insert Heroes, when to be more actively involved.



Now you are suggesting, I presume, that it was simply something created out of data, but it is data pieced together in such a way as to appear as a video of sorts, but the distinction is very implausible (or an unnecessary distinction as the information would have come from the Mirror World tool at the Wheel's disposal), unless it was a device created by the Wheel. If the columns were created by the Wheel, I'd agree that it could be a video like device of data splicing. However, as it is a Ter'angreal made by Aes Sedai and they could somehow program their device to hack the Wheel's data in such a way, makes them essentially equal with the Creator.

Now, you could say PLE, but that would get you many ugly stares, in essence that the Wheel directly tampered with the Ter'angreal and fed it data (gleaned from it's MW tool).

No, my position is that the ter'angreal is getting its information from what I (for want of a better term) have called genetic memory; the thing that makes Mat and Perrin start speaking the Old Tongue randomly in TEOTW. I'm assuming the ter'angreal functions in such a way as to extrapolate this data from the DNA of the Aiel who enter it, and my evidence for this is both the fact that it only shows the lives of ancestors, and the fact that it discriminates genetically:


Someone who wasn't Aiel could wander through those spires forever and never see a thing except the spires. He or she might think it was a monument, or maybe a work of art.

This to me strongly suggests that within the world of WOT ancestors' memories are stored genetically, an idea which there is some back-up for.

When it then goes on to show Avi's future, I think that Avi is correct that she has accidentally broken the ter'angreal somehow. I think her talent is the likeliest cause, but it might also be related to her already having some knowledge of her ancestors' history.

This is where I get a bit more speculative: I propose that in extracting that data from the genetic memory of the previous users, it has had to store that information somehow. Then, when Avi breaks the ter'angreal, it malfunctions, and extrapolates a likely future based upon the information it presently has, plus the data Aviendha contributes, and shows her the future by showing her the lives of likely descendants. Because it's not designed for this, it then breaks.

Hence, the future it shows is not taken from a Mirror World, but rather from the the data of the previous occupants. Thus, the future is completely made up, but also incredibly likely - potentially not taking into account the alteration made to it by its own act of showing the future to Aviendha.

I'm opposed to the mirror world idea, because as far as we know, it doesn't function by using TAR to create virtual realities like the Testatron ter'angreal the AS use or appear to tap into mirror worlds in any way during the course of its normal function. I think it's broken because Avi senses nothing from it, and there may be evidence she can read even a ter'angreal which she can't use. And I put those two ideas together to reject the notion that it might have some unused mirror world scanning function lying in wait for Aviendha in a similar way to how Callandor was warded against any except Rand, especially since there is no mention of Aviendha in the Karaethon Cycle (or any prophecy more than a few years old) that I'm aware of.

I hope that clears it up. I've found it quite interesting looking into this and may write it up as a theory.

Tamyrlin
04-26-2012, 12:36 PM
No, my position is that the ter'angreal is getting its information from what I (for want of a better term) have called genetic memory; the thing that makes Mat and Perrin start speaking the Old Tongue randomly in TEOTW. I'm assuming the ter'angreal functions in such a way as to extrapolate this data from the DNA of the Aiel who enter it, and my evidence for this is both the fact that it only shows the lives of ancestors, and the fact that it discriminates genetically:


Right, a genetic virtual history-memory-vision device, something likely programmable and built to be programmable during the Age of Legends when it was used for a variety of purposes, likely involving entertainment and lengthy warranty clauses.

Although, I woud like to note that Portal Stone studies (Mirror Worlds) took place during the Age of Legends too. And travel to Parallel Worlds was also known. According to Lanfear, the concept of meeting yourself, books written about it, were well known too. So, I'd be surprised if blood ALONE could be programmed in such a fashion to create such an accurate history-memory-vision device.

If you go the blood route, then it touches on the concept I posed of data coming through from previous Turnings (I still enjoy the past Turning concept, gotta throw it in where possible...although we do not know if bloodlines pass from Turning to Turning.)


When it then goes on to show Avi's future, I think that Avi is correct that she has accidentally broken the ter'angreal somehow. I think her talent is the likeliest cause, but it might also be related to her already having some knowledge of her ancestors' history.

This is where I get a bit more speculative: I propose that in extracting that data from the genetic memory of the previous users, it has had to store that information somehow. Then, when Avi breaks the ter'angreal, it malfunctions, and extrapolates a likely future based upon the information it presently has, plus the data Aviendha contributes, and shows her the future by showing her the lives of likely descendants. Because it's not designed for this, it then breaks.


Along this route of thinking, I doubt she broke it. I think she unconsciously reprogrammed it, something it was built to be able to do. Why would they build a tool that was simply a backward looking machine? Of course, the Aes Sedai that set it up in Rhuidean wanted them looking backward and didn't teach them to reprogram it because they had a specific purpose in instructing them to use it. But, considering what Aviendha saw, we have every reason to believe it was much more capable of doing things that it hadn't been used to do.

This does bring up a good question - was it only programmed to accept certain bloodlines, and can that be changed too? I can't remember, do we see these columns in the past visions being carried out of the cities and trekked across?


Hence, the future it shows is not taken from a Mirror World, but rather from the the data of the previous occupants. Thus, the future is completely made up, but also incredibly likely - potentially not taking into account the alteration made to it by its own act of showing the future to Aviendha.


I'm okay with blood-future visioning, although I'd suggest that such a thing would be highly speculative, as far as showing a real, likely future (unless you believe that bloodlines can span Turnings accurately...or if blood lines end at the end of the 7th Age...but anyway).

It wouldn't be capable of taking into account other world-wide events, which is why I don't believe you can get the future visions Avi saw without more than blood ALONE.

Also, you note that Aviendha breaks the machine, but then you don't accomodate room for the idea that in breaking it she changed the inputs, she made it into something it wasn't...such as somehow tapping into data from future Mirror Worlds. As in, your theory, that she broke it makes MW tapping more plausible.


I'm opposed to the mirror world idea, because as far as we know, it doesn't function by using TAR to create virtual realities like the Testatron ter'angreal the AS use or appear to tap into mirror worlds in any way during the course of its normal function. I think it's broken because Avi senses nothing from it, and there may be evidence she can read even a ter'angreal which she can't use. And I put those two ideas together to reject the notion that it might have some unused mirror world scanning function lying in wait for Aviendha in a similar way to how Callandor was warded against any except Rand, especially since there is no mention of Aviendha in the Karaethon Cycle (or any prophecy more than a few years old) that I'm aware of.


The Testing Arches and Testing Rings are distinct and are not solely Mirror World tapping. They mix Mirror World tapping, with TAR, dream bubbles, nightmares, etc., whereas I'd say the columns mix Mirror World tapping with Blood-visioning (and possibly other unknowns).

Ishara
04-26-2012, 02:09 PM
Because I am a nerd, I kept looking into this, and I found this quote:

Originally Posted by RJ, COT Glimmers E-Book Q&A
Someone who wasn't Aiel could wander through those spires forever and never see a thing except the spires. He or she might think it was a monument, or maybe a work of art.

So that at least suggests the pillars are capable of recognising someone based on genes/lineage. If the genetic memory thing from TEOTW is still in play then this strengthens my theory a little, I think.

So, we're working with blood for SURE. I guess my sticking point is that we have no reason to think that Aviendha could affect ter'angreal before, so why do we think she did now? Maybe this ter'angreal was tuned to her blood and changed when she touched it, as opposed to changing because of something she did unconsciously? It's HER line (well, hers and Rand's and Min's) that screws things up for ALL the Aiel...maybe she's the only one this would have worked for? Maybe they're just dead to her now, although I'll say that her thought process about the uselessness of them is actually a good one. What's the point of them anymore, even if they do work the old way for someone else - or the new way?

Tamyrlin
04-26-2012, 02:19 PM
So, we're working with blood for SURE. I guess my sticking point is that we have no reason tho think that Aviendha could affect ter'angreal before, so why do we think she did now? Maybe this ter'angreal was tuned to her blood and changed when she touched it, as opposed to changing because of something she did unconsciously? It's HER line (well, hers and Rand's and Min's) that screws things up for ALL the Aiel...maybe she's the only one this would have worked for? Maybe they're just dead to her now, although I'll say that her thought process about the uselessness of them is actually a good one. What's the point of them anymore, even if they do work the old way for someone else - or the new way?

The notion that any Aiel could have re-entered it. Recall the prohibition (I fought for this idea back when the books came out) that they were not to enter the columns a second time, iirc. It's possible that the Wise Ones know of this or passed down a prohibition, or even that other Wise Ones had entered a second time, or that this is part of the Wise Ones training later on to return to Rhuidean again.

If other Wise Ones had seen their own blood/mw future, it would make sense as to why they are very concerned about the Remnant of a Remnant. And wait...hmm...ok, while I use Dreamwalking as the reasoning for their interest in Aviendha...if other Wise Ones had seen the future...then Aviendha would be IMPORTANT indeed. Ok, I'm adding this to my theory. :) Definitely need to write this thing up!

I believe whatever happened with the columns, they were built for a variety of purposes and could be attuned to both past, present and future blood/mw-visioning.

Davian93
04-26-2012, 02:21 PM
The notion that any Aiel could have re-entered it. Recall the prohibition (I fought for this idea back when the books came out) that they were not to enter the columns a second time, iirc. It's possible that the Wise Ones know of this or passed down a prohibition, or even that other Wise Ones had entered a second time, or that this is part of the Wise Ones training later on to return to Rhuidean again.

If other Wise Ones had seen their own blood/mw future, it would make sense as to why they are very concerned about the Remnant of a Remnant. And wait...hmm...ok, while I use Dreamwalking as the reasoning for their interest in Aviendha...if other Wise Ones had seen the future...then Aviendha would be IMPORTANT indeed. Ok, I'm adding this to my theory. :)

I believe whatever happened with the columns, they were built for a variety of purposes and could be attuned to both past, present and future blood/mw-visioning.

That's a very interesting line of conjecture that passes the sanity test at first read.

Grig
04-26-2012, 02:29 PM
This does bring up a good question - was it only programmed to accept certain bloodlines, and can that be changed too?

As far as I was able to determine, we don't even know that it was specifically made by the Aes Sedai that were escorting the items of power with the Jenn Aiel. It could have been an older item that they repurposed, much like what the AS do with their testing ter'angreal.

Weird Harold
04-26-2012, 07:58 PM
Complicated Programming
This is exactly the opposite of my point. A ter'angreal intended to teach multiple generations of Aeil would be constructed/programmed according to the KISS principle, and would NOT include "complicated programming."

So, I'd be surprised if blood ALONE could be programmed in such a fashion to create such an accurate history-memory-vision device.

The WOT makes old sayings/beliefs literal truths. Everything any ancestor did or learned is encoded in a person's blood (and bone.) In the WOT, the easiest, most accessible "history-memory-vision" is in the candidate's blood.

A pale imitation of the concept is featured in the PBS series Finding Your Roots where each guest gives a cheek-swab genetic sample which is processed to determine percentages of european, asian, african, etc ancestry.

Along this route of thinking, I doubt she broke it. I think she unconsciously reprogrammed it, something it was built to be able to do.

If that is the case, then whatever it was reprogrammed to do involves what can be learned from "Blood and Bone." The "hardware" of the ter'angreal analyzes Blood (and Bone) to extract ancestral experiences. Whatever it might be reprogrammed to extract, it has to use the same "hardware" to do so.

Why would they build a tool that was simply a backward looking machine?

Because they already had a "forward looking machine" handy? (The Wise One Apprentice Testing Rings--A device which clearly uses either T'A'R or Mirror Worlds to show "ALL possible futures.")

But, considering what Aviendha saw, we have every reason to believe it was much more capable of doing things that it hadn't been used to do.

Why does everyone take Aviendha's POV for fact?

Considering that her encounter with Nakomi reads like the POV of an action hero fighting a drug-enhanced interrogation, why won't anyone consider that it might have been Aviendha that was "reprogrammed" rather than the columns?

This does bring up a good question - was it only programmed to accept certain bloodlines, and can that be changed too?

Perhaps they were a prop for the AOL version of Finding Your Roots? :D

I'm okay with blood-future visioning, although I'd suggest that such a thing would be highly speculative, as far as showing a real, likely future (unless you believe that bloodlines can span Turnings accurately...or if blood lines end at the end of the 7th Age...but anyway).

The problem with reading future bloodlines is that the columns would not have samples of other contributors to future bloodlines and "Blood and Bone" could hardly be imprinted with events that haven't happened.

If "Blood-future" is presented, it would almost have to be past-Turning(s) -- The name problem can be dismissed as "translation transparency;" Aviendha translated the experience to the language and names she is familiar with.

It wouldn't be capable of taking into account other world-wide events, which is why I don't believe you can get the future visions Avi saw without more than blood ALONE.

Which is why I doubt that the Columns Ter'angreal could provide future visions.

As an analogy, the DNA labs Finding Your Roots uses can't provide projections of what your children would look like; to get that output, you need a different lab and a DNA sample from another "parent."

Also, you note that Aviendha breaks the machine, but then you don't accomodate room for the idea that in breaking it she changed the inputs, she made it into something it wasn't...

When you "Break" your TV, is there any chance it will turn into a Crystal Ball that predicts stock prices? Or does something "broken" just quit working?


The Testing Arches and Testing Rings are distinct and are not solely Mirror World tapping. They mix Mirror World tapping, with TAR, dream bubbles, nightmares, etc., whereas I'd say the columns mix Mirror World tapping with Blood-visioning (and possibly other unknowns).

IIRC, the WO Apprentice testing rings is one of the ter'angreal seen in Rand's trip through the Columns. With a ter'angreal handy that shows probable futures, wouldn't it be easier to modify or reprogram that ter'angreal than to add that function to a ter'angreal primarily used to test ancestry and show the past?

It is extremely unlikely that the Columns showed that past by accessing Mirror Worlds, so it is equally unlikely that they can access Mirror Worlds for any other function/purpose.

While a person might be multi-talented, machines seldom are.

Each different mode of operation requires different hardware and additional complexity. It would not be impossible to build a single ter'angreal to access multiple modes of operation to allow presentation of an absolute past and a variable future, but it would cost more and generally be less reliable than using the existing "probable-futures-display" and building a simpler. single function device to display the Blood Memories.

Everything the Columns needed to fulfill its primary purpose -- testing Wise Ones and Clan Chiefs -- is present within the candidates (even Rand.) There is no logical reason or imperative for the Columns to access anything outside of itself and the candidate -- or have the ability to do so.

(SORRY - ACCIDENTALLY EDITED THIS, BUT WE SHOULD BE GOOD TO GO NOW. Tam)

Tamyrlin
04-26-2012, 08:52 PM
This is exactly the opposite of my point. A ter'angreal intended to teach multiple generations of Aiel would be constructed/programmed according to the KISS principle, and would NOT include "complicated programming."


This assumes that was the first use and only intended use of this particular Ter'angreal. I would agree, if we knew for sure that the Aes Sedai that ended up Rhuidean...somehow had the capability to create this kind of Ter'angreal...you would be right. I need to go back and read Rand's trip and see if we know for sure.


Along this route of thinking, I doubt she broke it. I think she unconsciously reprogrammed it, something it was built to be able to do.

If that is the case, then whatever it was reprogrammed to do involves what can be learned from "Blood and Bone." The "hardware" of the ter'angreal analyzes Blood (and Bone) to extract ancestral experiences. Whatever it might be reprogrammed to extract, it has to use the same "hardware" to do so.


You assume that it was only programmed to analyze Blood and Bone. IF that was the case, then of course it would be reprogramming in the Blood and Bone categories. However, that has yet to be proved; in fact, I'd say Aviendha's use is suggestive that more is going on than a simple blood-memory-vision tool.


Why would they build a tool that was simply a backward looking machine?

Because they already had a "forward looking machine" handy? (The Wise One Apprentice Testing Rings--A device which clearly uses either T'A'R or Mirror Worlds to show "ALL possible futures.")



The Rings are specific to that individual life's future, not generational futures, so it would not have been redundant.



But, considering what Aviendha saw, we have every reason to believe it was much more capable of doing things that it hadn't been used to do.

Why does everyone take Aviendha's POV for fact?

Considering that her encounter with Nakomi reads like the POV of an action hero fighting a drug-enhanced interrogation, why won't anyone consider that it might have been Aviendha that was "reprogrammed" rather than the columns?


I wasn't saying Aviendha's visions were factual. I was saying what she saw as far as details involving more than her bloodline. Details of populations, treaties, technologies, and her children, along with details stemming from the end of this very Age. Easy to extract for a theory from someone's blood moving backward in time. However, not so much moving into the future (which you address in your next answer.)


I'm okay with blood-future visioning, although I'd suggest that such a thing would be highly speculative, as far as showing a real, likely future (unless you believe that bloodlines can span Turnings accurately...or if blood lines end at the end of the 7th Age...but anyway).

The problem with reading future bloodlines is that the columns would not have samples of other contributors to future bloodlines and "Blood and Bone" could hardly be imprinted with events that haven't happened.

If "Blood-future" is presented, it would almost have to be past-Turning(s) -- The name problem can be dismissed as "translation transparency;" Aviendha translated the experience to the language and names she is familiar with.


Interesting. "Translation transparency" - so the Ter'angreal inserted names she'd be familiar with, but this was a past Turning? I'm not against that idea, but that's a far way for a bloodline to travel...making it being a purely bloodline issue quite unlikely. Consider the Aiel she sees, a much maligned and destitute population. The idea that such bloodlines made it through three additional ages and through into another Turning up until this point to give Aviendha these blood past/future visions...what was that acronym again, KISS? :)



Also, you note that Aviendha breaks the machine, but then you don't accomodate room for the idea that in breaking it she changed the inputs, she made it into something it wasn't...

When you "Break" your TV, is there any chance it will turn into a Crystal Ball that predicts stock prices? Or does something "broken" just quit working?


Hehe. I was speaking as though Aviendha's Talent affected the Ter'angreal. You, again, are working on the theory of limitations to the Blood only visions, so of course your analogy only works within the confines of your theory. I was purely addressing the theory that Aviendha tampered with the device.


The Testing Arches and Testing Rings are distinct and are not solely Mirror World tapping. They mix Mirror World tapping, with TAR, dream bubbles, nightmares, etc., whereas I'd say the columns mix Mirror World tapping with Blood-visioning (and possibly other unknowns).

IIRC, the WO Apprentice testing rings is one of the ter'angreal seen in Rand's trip through the Columns. With a ter'angreal handy that shows probable futures, wouldn't it be easier to modify or reprogram that ter'angreal than to add that function to a ter'angreal primarily used to test ancestry and show the past?


Assuming they manufactured the Column Ter'angreal in Rhuidean, and we know they had the Testing Rings, why not believe that they would take what they understand from the Testing Rings as far as showing futures and then adding a blood component so they have two useful Ter'angreal instead of just one?


It is extremely unlikely that the Columns showed that past by accessing Mirror Worlds, so it is equally unlikely that they can access Mirror Worlds for any other function/purpose.

While a person might be multi-talented, machines seldom are.


I doubt the Columns need data from Mirror Worlds to generate a past, beyond any cultural type data that might be useful to craft a reliable setting outside of the blood-memories, but not completely necessary. However, to craft a future, Mirror Worlds would play a vital role. So, tell me this, let's say bloodlines don't cross Turnings. Let's say it's all reset, considering Suns don't go nova. Let's say the Wheel resets everything, where would this device get the data necessary to craft future generational visions?


Everything the Columns needed to fulfill its primary purpose -- testing Wise Ones and Clan Chiefs -- is present within the candidates (even Rand.) There is no logical reason or imperative for the Columns to access anything outside of itself and the candidate -- or have the ability to do so.


Yet we see it do something that appears illogical, or requiring modification of what seems to be simple programming. This requires you to suggest previous Turning blood memories, highly speculative and unlikely, or as I suggest MW's, something that would have future data and something we've seen used by Ter'angreal of the Age of Legends. I'm just keeping it simple.

Weird Harold
04-26-2012, 11:01 PM
This assumes that was the first use and only intended use of this particular Ter'angreal. I would agree, if we knew for sure that the Aes Sedai that ended up Rhuidean...somehow had the capability to create this kind of Ter'angreal...you would be right. I need to go back and read Rand's trip and see if we know for sure.

If they did NOT build it, the single-mode functionality is more likely, not less. The only reason I can see for the Columns to have a multi-mode functionality is that they were Built according to a prophecy that required Aviendha's second trip. I do NOT think that is the case.

You assume that it was only programmed to analyze Blood and Bone.

I assume only that it has a single mode of operation. The most likely mode -- and prior to ToM, the consensus opinion -- is Blood and Bone detection/manipulation/analysis. It could follow threads into the past or track Soul Memories, or operate in some other fashion. but it has only ONE mode of operation.

However the Columns worked to show the past, Aviendha's second trip MUST be explainable with the same mode/hardware.

The Rings are specific to that individual life's future, not generational futures, so it would not have been redundant.

It would have been easier to re-program an existing mirror-world viewer than to add mirror world viewing to a device expected to not need mirror world viewing for a couple of thousand years.

I wasn't saying Aviendha's visions were factual.

But you do insist that the Columns showed her those visions. :D I think they were hallucinations/post-hypnotic suggestions

Interesting. "Translation transparency" - so the Ter'angreal inserted names she'd be familiar with, but this was a past Turning? I'm not against that idea, but that's a far way for a bloodline to travel...

First of all, I don't believe that the Columns did show Aviendha a past Turning, I just think that if they showed her ANYTHING, is was the past, read through Blood Inheritance, rather than any sort of actual future.

Second, Blood Inheritance is not necessarily linear. Factors(memories/experiences) diverge and converge so that in one generation they are weak or dilute and in another they are recombined as strong as ever. The recombination of ancestral memories from one or more Turnings in the past is statistically unlikely, but then, so are the "coincidences" that make any of the major characters who they are. I've written elsewhere about "the Pattern's 3,000+ year breeding program" that produced Rand at the right time and place to fight T'G

Hehe. I was speaking as though Aviendha's Talent affected the Ter'angreal. ... I was purely addressing the theory that Aviendha tampered with the device.

If Aviendha "Tampered" with the columns, she still did not change the physical hardware that read the past. Whether it read Blood and Bone" or tea leaves, it didn't suddenly gain the ability to read the New York Times.

Assuming they manufactured the Column Ter'angreal in Rhuidean, and we know they had the Testing Rings, why not believe that they would take what they understand from the Testing Rings as far as showing futures and then adding a blood component so they have two useful Ter'angreal instead of just one?

Because hybrid machines almost never work as well as dedicated machines for a single function.

Adding "a blood component" to a mirror-world viewer would require additional components and generally complicate the design. People are versatile enough that they can change modes at the drop of a hat, but machines are stupid -- even magical machines that do things impossible in the real world. :D

If the Rhuidean Aes Sedai did manufacture the Columns -- which I personally believe they did -- then how likely would it be that two master ter'angreal makers would survive the Breaking and find their way to Rhuidean to build a multi-mode ter'angreal with one mode locked out for a couple of thousand years?

I think the Rhuidean AS had just enough skill and knowledge to build a way to preserve the Aeil's history and mark the Clan Cheifs and Car'a'Carn. For them to have more than the minimum ter'angreal building skill smacks of deux ex machina.

I doubt the Columns need data from Mirror Worlds to generate a past, beyond any cultural type data that might be useful to craft a reliable setting outside of the blood-memories, but not completely necessary.

Everything needed is contained in the Blood; just as Mat experienced Aemon's life during his Healing, the Columns simply bring the applicable Old Blood Memories to the surface and allow the candidate to experience them; including any and all cultural baggage

...where would this device get the data necessary to craft future generational visions?

It can't. That's really my whole point. The Columns Ter'angreal did something that all of our previous understanding of how it might work says it can't do. When there is and alternative explanation that doesn't require turning years of consensus on its ear, I prefer the alternative to trying to come up with a new explanation for how the ter'angreal works.

Yet we see it do something that appears illogical, or requiring modification of what seems to be simple programming. ... I'm just keeping it simple.

You want simple, how about:

"It didn't happen! It was all in Aviendha's head, and probably as a result of Nakomi's interrogation/intervention."

Tamyrlin
04-27-2012, 12:21 AM
If they did NOT build it, the single-mode functionality is more likely, not less. The only reason I can see for the Columns to have a multi-mode functionality is that they were Built according to a prophecy that required Aviendha's second trip. I do NOT think that is the case.


Your lack of creativity as a designer does not make single-mode any more or less likely.


I assume only that it has a single mode of operation. The most likely mode -- and prior to ToM, the consensus opinion -- is Blood and Bone detection/manipulation/analysis. It could follow threads into the past or track Soul Memories, or operate in some other fashion. but it has only ONE mode of operation.

However the Columns worked to show the past, Aviendha's second trip MUST be explainable with the same mode/hardware.


See - I'm with you that it is more likely blood+soul memory vision, although soul memory visions accessible by the machine...I guess it could be said that Portal Stones likely interface with the soul. But I disagree that this Ter'angreal has only one mode. In fact, we now have reason to believe it was always two mode, a notion the Wise Ones prohibiting entering the columns twice, supports. It appeared to be one mode, now it's two mode.


It would have been easier to re-program an existing mirror-world viewer than to add mirror world viewing to a device expected to not need mirror world viewing for a couple of thousand years.


Since we don't know the process, nor the expertise needed, suggesting it would have been "easier" is moot. And while it would seem like MW input data would be unnecessary, generally speaking, I don't see why having past world data to piece together blood/soul memories into a coherent virtual experience is so unlikely to you.


But you do insist that the Columns showed her those visions. :D I think they were hallucinations/post-hypnotic suggestions


Well, you are stuck on this notion you've created about single mode, only blood memories, so of course you think this must be hallucinations. :)


First of all, I don't believe that the Columns did show Aviendha a past Turning, I just think that if they showed her ANYTHING, is was the past, read through Blood Inheritance, rather than any sort of actual future.

Second, Blood Inheritance is not necessarily linear. Factors(memories/experiences) diverge and converge so that in one generation they are weak or dilute and in another they are recombined as strong as ever. The recombination of ancestral memories from one or more Turnings in the past is statistically unlikely, but then, so are the "coincidences" that make any of the major characters who they are. I've written elsewhere about "the Pattern's 3,000+ year breeding program" that produced Rand at the right time and place to fight T'G


Well - crossed Turning data seems a lot more unlikely than the 3000 year breeding program to produce Rand, but yes, the Wheel weaves as it wills for sure. But I'd like to think this wasn't a PLE...too many of those at the end feels like deux ex.


If Aviendha "Tampered" with the columns, she still did not change the physical hardware that read the past. Whether it read Blood and Bone" or tea leaves, it didn't suddenly gain the ability to read the New York Times.


I'm sure someone in their past remembers the New York Times. :)


Because hybrid machines almost never work as well as dedicated machines for a single function.

Adding "a blood component" to a mirror-world viewer would require additional components and generally complicate the design. People are versatile enough that they can change modes at the drop of a hat, but machines are stupid -- even magical machines that do things impossible in the real world. :D


We know they developed Ter'angreal that do use MW input data, so the notion that it was done and was done often, makes this idea of one too many components a dead end. They could build whatever machine they wanted. We don't know what their minimum requirement were from a data input perspective to create the experience we witness.


If the Rhuidean Aes Sedai did manufacture the Columns -- which I personally believe they did -- then how likely would it be that two master ter'angreal makers would survive the Breaking and find their way to Rhuidean to build a multi-mode ter'angreal with one mode locked out for a couple of thousand years?

I think the Rhuidean AS had just enough skill and knowledge to build a way to preserve the Aeil's history and mark the Clan Cheifs and Car'a'Carn. For them to have more than the minimum ter'angreal building skill smacks of deux ex machina.


The columns seem like a product of master makers, not a hodgepodge of spare parts and instructional manuals. And we still do not know how "locked" it supposedly was in this one mode. But so what. If it was locked, it was locked for a good reason. We have password protection and mode locking, especially from an Admin perspective.


Everything needed is contained in the Blood; just as Mat experienced Aemon's life during his Healing, the Columns simply bring the applicable Old Blood Memories to the surface and allow the candidate to experience them; including any and all cultural baggage


Everything needed is NOT contained in the Blood for the type of future we see. We see future civilization. We see future generations. That information does not exist in the Blood. There is no proof that the blood can or would hold such data. Instead we are led to believe that each Turning begins anew. Now, I'll except that it is a soul memory device too as I mentioned above...although, soul memory seems a bit more complicated than MW input data.


It can't. That's really my whole point. The Columns Ter'angreal did something that all of our previous understanding of how it might work says it can't do. When there is and alternative explanation that doesn't require turning years of consensus on its ear, I prefer the alternative to trying to come up with a new explanation for how the ter'angreal works.


That's understandable. Although, our understanding has shown itself to be incomplete over the years as more of the world is revealed. We've had to push Jordan to reveal more of the world to us enabling us to arrive at new consensus. We have been given new data, so I see no reason why arriving at new conclusions is out of the norm.


You want simple, how about:

"It didn't happen! It was all in Aviendha's head, and probably as a result of Nakomi's interrogation/intervention."

Hehe. Now that would be funny.

Grig
04-27-2012, 12:23 AM
Because hybrid machines almost never work as well as dedicated machines for a single function.

Do you really think you're capable of telling the difference between an "optimized" ter'angreal and one that "doesn't quite work as cleanly, but does the same function" when you're only given one ter'angreal to look at? If not, this statement is pointless. With TWOT cosmology, time is a continuous weave. Past and Future are just different directions from the Present. Does it work better to design a car that can only go east and a car that can only go west, instead of a car that can go in either direction? Recall, dedicated machines work better than hybrids.

EDIT: Not to mention that our first major example of a ter'angreal is one that shows what was, is, and will be. At what point were we introduced to the idea that there's some category difference between items that let you view the past, and ones that will let you view the future?

fionwe1987
04-27-2012, 01:25 AM
I fail to see how it became set in stone that Mirror worlds cannot be used to give visions of the past. If anything, I'd argue Mirror Worlds are the simplest way for the Rhuidean columns to work. If you can scan the Mirror Worlds , then you can see everything that didn't happen. So if you know all the probable events that didn't end up occurring, you're left with the only true events, which the ter'angreal shows the Aiel.

Heck, given that the Aiel lose awareness of their own bodies when they have the visions, what does the function of this ter'angreal remind you of? Tal'arand'rhiod. What if the columns simply force you into a created dream state where it uses the infinite malleability of TAR to show the Aiel what happened to a specified set of their ancestors? What if Need is used, and it is the "awareness" that Aviendha senses, this potent thing that seems as vast as the OP to her that provides the strength of will needed to manipulate TAR so much that you even forget who you are, and experience entire certain memories of your ancestors? And TAR is closest to a place where "soul memories" may be stored, but it is also the place that wraps around all the worlds, including the Mirror Worlds. This fact was re-emphasized in ToM when Egwene saw the unified AS symbol on her rose window, which was the reflection of a Mirror World. And since other ter'angreal exist that are a combination of TAR and the Mirror Worlds, why assume this is different?

Now, it is tempting to reject these on the basis of only Aiel seeing anything in the columns, but the we have proof the columns already have undergone modification. They only show Aiel history up to a point (when they took the Oath and accepted coming to Rhuidean). And they only reach so deep into the past. For each succeeding generation, each of these "bookend" events are farther in the past. Yet the tar'angreal seems perfectly capable of only showing these events and not going on till it reaches Janduin, say, for Rand.

If that one modification is possible, why not another that only lets those with Aiel blood enter? Such things are hardly unprecedented. I certainly don't see any reason to discard other ways this ter'angreal may be working that have lot more evidence in the books just because it works only for the Aiel.

Swordcrowned
04-27-2012, 02:40 AM
Now you are suggesting, I presume, that it was simply something created out of data, but it is data pieced together in such a way as to appear as a video of sorts, but the distinction is very implausible (or an unnecessary distinction as the information would have come from the Mirror World tool at the Wheel's disposal), unless it was a device created by the Wheel. If the columns were created by the Wheel, I'd agree that it could be a video like device of data splicing. However, as it is a Ter'angreal made by Aes Sedai and they could somehow program their device to hack the Wheel's data in such a way, makes them essentially equal with the Creator.

Now, you could say PLE, but that would get you many ugly stares, in essence that the Wheel directly tampered with the Ter'angreal and fed it data (gleaned from it's MW tool).

With all the connotations in the story about weaving, patterns, age lace, individual threads(lives) and ta'veren being able to make the choices that change the pattern, I dont see how it would be that difficult for a ter'angreal to predict a possible future based on present events, and how they would come to pass if things were not changed.

yks 6nnetu hing
04-27-2012, 02:58 AM
A counter-point, WH:

the Apprentice Rings only show one person's - the one in the Rings at that point - possible life choices. That is fundamentally different from skipping over generations.

One point to support the Mirror World vision theory is how the Pattern operates. For all but ta'veren there is considerable choice available in the Pattern. Now, while Avi is irretrievably sucked into the vortex that is Rand, there is no evidence (rather the opposite) to think that her descendants had any ta'veren powers active. This means that it is entirely possible that one of her kids might decide to marry Bachelor #4 instead of Bachelor #1, thereby making the genetic code of the offspring totally different. But Avi saw a very specific set of visions.

So, either it is pre-determined by the Pattern with whom and when her descendants would procreate - and in this case the Columns were showing a reading of the Pattern - or there's some flexibility for the individual, which has always been stressed in WoT. As there's flexibility, any possible choice just by there being that choice creates a Mirror effect. Therefore it is much more likely that Avi saw a Mirror World than it is that she saw a Blood&Bone memory. After all, genetics can throw you a curve ball even if you make the tiniest of alterations, such as switching one little sperm for another.

Weird Harold
04-27-2012, 06:17 AM
Your lack of creativity as a designer does not make single-mode any more or less likely.

It isn't a lack of creativity, it's the egineering principles.

It is an engineer's job to restrain a designer's creativity to stay within the bounds of manageable costs and complexity.

See - I'm with you that it is more likely blood+soul memory vision, although soul memory visions accessible by the machine...

All that is needed and the simplest engineering challenge is "Blood and Bone" as far as showing the past.

Accessing the thread or soul to show the past requires accessing multiple sources outside of the Ter'angreal plus Candidate system.

Whatever method was used to show the past would present the simplest engineering challenge to adapt to showing the future.

In fact, we now have reason to believe it was always two mode, a notion the Wise Ones prohibiting entering the columns twice, supports. It appeared to be one mode, now it's two mode.

I have no inherent objection to a switch to showing the future. What I object to is the speculations that disregard the hardware requirements of the first mode in analyzing the second.

...I don't see why having past world data to piece together blood/soul memories into a coherent virtual experience is so unlikely to you.

Because you don't accept that the experiences and memories of ancestors are in one's blood. It is an outmoded belief that has been thoroughly discredited in the real world. But we aren't talking about the real world, we're talking about the WOT.

"Old Blood" aka Blood Memory is not the same as Soul Memory. Soul Memory is the retention of an individual's past-life experiences; Blood Memory is the inheritance of other soul's experience and memories. Soul Memory is a complete encapsulation of all memory from each of an individual's past lives; Blood Memory is a random selection of experiences and memories of an individual's ancestors.

In order for the Columns to use Soul Memories to access Aeil history, the Candidate would have to have been reborn as a witness or participant to each seminal event. For Blood Memory, the Candidate need only be related to a witness or participant.

To show any future beyond an individual, Blood or Soul would NOT be the best method. A different Method/Device would be the best engineering solution.



Well, you are stuck on this notion you've created about single mode, only blood memories, so of course you think this must be hallucinations. :)

Blood analysis is just the simplest engineering solution -- it doesn't require any outside access such as any other method of showing the past would require.



We know they developed Ter'angreal that do use MW input data, so the notion that it was done and was done often, makes this idea of one too many components a dead end. They could build whatever machine they wanted. We don't know what their minimum requirement were from a data input perspective to create the experience we witness.

They could build whatever they wanted, but at a materiel and complexity penalty for every additional access mode.

We do know that the minimum information is available in the Old Blood/Blood and Bone of the Candidates. We do know that the POVs shown to the Candidates are from Ancestors of the Candidate -- per RJ. All of the information shown prior to ToM is present within the Candidate.

We do not know that the builders of the Columns chose the minimum. They may have for some reason chosen a more difficult engineering solution that requires multiple outside access. The information shown prior to ToM is NOT available in any single place outside of the Candidate -- the ter'angreal would have to track multiple Threads/Souls/Mirror Worlds to garner what can be found in a sucessful Candidate's Blood.

The columns seem like a product of master makers, not a hodgepodge of spare parts and instructional manuals.

Actually, since it is the largest ter'angreal we've seen, it seems more like a "Breadboard" prototype than it does a refined, integrated-circuit, Masterwork. The Columns could conceivably perform their function in a package as small as either of the testing rings, but they cover more space than any other OP powered device we've seen.

Everything needed is NOT contained in the Blood for the type of future we see. We see future civilization. We see future generations. That information does not exist in the Blood. There is no proof that the blood can or would hold such data.

I agree completely. We just arrived at different conclusions.

Blood Memory is the simplest explanation for the ter'angreal's function prior to ToM, but a completely impossible explanation for Aviendha's "second trip." Everything about a person's past and ancestry is in their blood, but nothing is in their blood about their descendants.

Instead we are led to believe that each Turning begins anew. Now, I'll except that it is a soul memory device too as I mentioned above...although, soul memory seems a bit more complicated than MW input data.

Mirror Worlds would be useless for showing the past. Soul Memory is only useful for showing that Soul's Past. Thread/Pattern analysis is the only method that could show both past and future, but would show absolutes in both directions -- as Foretelling and Min's Viewings do.

Everyone seems resistant to the idea that the future Aviendha saw is immutable, but given the past performance of the Columns ter'angreal, immutable is the only possibility I see if she in fact did see the future as shown by the columns.

That's understandable. Although, our understanding has shown itself to be incomplete over the years as more of the world is revealed. We've had to push Jordan to reveal more of the world to us enabling us to arrive at new consensus. We have been given new data, so I see no reason why arriving at new conclusions is out of the norm.

Over the years, the answers RJ gave concerning the Columns reinforced the Blood Memory Theory of Operation. ToM would seem to overturn all of RJ's hints and answers related to past operation as well as our theories.

For me, Aviendha's "second trip" has to be a PLE or Deux Ex Machina in order to be an actual vision generated by the Columns.

You want simple, how about:

"It didn't happen! It was all in Aviendha's head, and probably as a result of Nakomi's interrogation/intervention."Hehe. Now that would be funny.

Everyone seems to have given up on explaining the encounter with Nakomi. Re-read Aviendha's encounter with Nakomi and tell me it doesn't read like Aviendha drifting in and out of lucidity or read like a a drug enhanced interrogation from and action/adventure novel.

If Nakomi is capable of causing Aviendha to drift in and out of lucidity, she's also capable of planting a post-hypnotic suggestion to play on Aviendha's fears and insecurities while having the fears and insecurities reinforced by an unimpeachable, impartial source.

When Rand went through the Columns, Mat saw him enter and Rand saw Muradin in the Columns; i.e. we have independent confirmation that Rand did go through the Columns. Aviendha was alone, so we have only her POV and there is no way to distinguish hallucination from reality.

We do know that some of the things Aviendha saw in her second trip aren't possible with what we know from prior to ToM -- her children being in continuous contact with the OP from birth for example.

The possibility of a Hallucination/Post-hypnotic suggestion implanted by Nakomi (sort of) solves two riddles with one answer instead of wild theories about hidden added complexity in a ter'angreal RJ implied we understood.

Weird Harold
04-27-2012, 06:36 AM
A counter-point, WH:

the Apprentice Rings only show one person's - the one in the Rings at that point - possible life choices. That is fundamentally different from skipping over generations.

It is less different than analyzing ancestry in one direction and mirror worlds in the other.

It is a matter of where the information is available. Information on an absolute past is NOT available in mirror words and information on the future is not available in Memory -- probably Blood Memory but applicable to Soul Memories as well.

The Apprentice Rings connect with the Mirror Worlds in much the same way your Television connects with RF Radiation. Your television can be modified to accept any frequency so that it picks up radio stations or police radios, or your television can be modified to accept direct video inputs or computer video (if it doesn't already have such inputs.)

What you can't do -- at least easily -- is re-purpose your TV to analyze DNA or power itself from Quantum Fluctuations.

IF Aviendha saw a mutable future generated from accessing mirror worlds, the hardware for accessing Mirror Worlds MUST be present in the Columns ter'angreal. Everything we've seen prior to ToM suggests that the columns have nothing to do with Mirror Worlds and everything to do with Blood Memory.

The basic technology for accessing the Mirror Worlds was already present and functional, why duplicate that hardware in addition to whatever is required for the ancestral search function.

Weird Harold
04-27-2012, 06:40 AM
With all the connotations in the story about weaving, patterns, age lace, individual threads(lives) and ta'veren being able to make the choices that change the pattern, I dont see how it would be that difficult for a ter'angreal to predict a possible future based on present events, and how they would come to pass if things were not changed.
It isn't really a question of what is possible, it is a question of where the information is most easily accessed. Everything required for pre-ToM operation can be found in "Old Blood." Nothing required for post-ToM "operation" can be found in "Old Blood."

Weird Harold
04-27-2012, 07:01 AM
I fail to see how it became set in stone that Mirror worlds cannot be used to give visions of the past. If anything, I'd argue Mirror Worlds are the simplest way for the Rhuidean columns to work. If you can scan the Mirror Worlds , then you can see everything that didn't happen. So if you know all the probable events that didn't end up occurring, you're left with the only true events, which the ter'angreal shows the Aiel.

Any Mirror World that branched off of reality after the first Clan Chiefs went to Rhuidean, would show the same past. It is far from impossible to show an accurate past by visiting/showing Mirror Worlds.

The problem is how much more complicated is the search for ancestral events in Mirror Worlds than simply exciting memories that are already within the Candidate?

Heck, given that the Aiel lose awareness of their own bodies when they have the visions, what does the function of this ter'angreal remind you of? Tal'arand'rhiod. What if the columns simply force you into a created dream state where it uses the infinite malleability of TAR to show the Aiel what happened to a specified set of their ancestors?

How much more complicated is manipulating T'A'R to show a specific event than stimulating an existing memory?

And TAR is closest to a place where "soul memories" may be stored, but it is also the place that wraps around all the worlds, including the Mirror Worlds.

Soul Memory doesn't contain ancestral memories, only memories from that singular Soul's incarnations. Souldd Memories are stored on the Soul and would all be present within the Candidate -- it wouldn't be necessary to access T'A'R to stimulate them.

since other ter'angreal exist that are a combination of TAR and the Mirror Worlds, why assume this is different?

Because it shows information that is present within the Candidate. Ter'angreal that access T'A'R and/or Mirror Worlds access information that is outside of the user; information from within the user (free will) is provided by the user, not extracted by the ter'angreal.

Now, it is tempting to reject these on the basis of only Aiel seeing anything in the columns, but the we have proof the columns already have undergone modification. ...

If that one modification is possible, why not another that only lets those with Aiel blood enter?

You assume the Columns were modified/re-programmed rather than purpose-built. As mentioned above, their size is suggestive of a Breadboard design rather than an integrated circuit design. If the ter'angreal was purpose built, then no modifications would be required to exclude non-aeil ancestry.

Weird Harold
04-27-2012, 07:22 AM
Do you really think you're capable of telling the difference between an "optimized" ter'angreal and one that "doesn't quite work as cleanly, but does the same function" when you're only given one ter'angreal to look at? If not, this statement is pointless.

RJ was an engineer by training. He thought like an Engineer. Engineers know multirole devices are generally less efficient than single purpose devices.

We're not given just "one ter'angreal to look at" we're given a wide range of *angreal to compare general engineering practices among.

Post-ToM, the columns apparently become the only ter'angreal with multiple modes of information access -- according to the varied attempts to explain the "altered operation"

EDIT: Not to mention that our first major example of a ter'angreal is one that shows what was, is, and will be.

A ter'angreal that just happens to use T'A'R as far as any discussion has determined. Our second major ter'angreal is the a'dam which has nothing in common with the testing rings. Our Third major ter'angreal is probably the Balefire Rod; again nothing in common with either of the previous example.

NB I'm not positive about the order of introduction; the A'dam might be first.

The only thing that those three ter'angreal have in common is that they are single-purpose devices that operate in a single, minimalist mode from an engineering viewpoint.

At what point were we introduced to the idea that there's some category difference between items that let you view the past, and ones that will let you view the future?

I'm not sure where the idea is introduced; I'm pretty sure it was spread over information about the various things like T'A'R. Mirror Worlds, *finnland/parallel dimensions, Old Blood, Soul Memories. et al that store information about the past. I'm not sure that is explicitly introduced rather than deduced.

yks 6nnetu hing
04-27-2012, 07:22 AM
IF Aviendha saw a mutable future generated from accessing mirror worlds, the hardware for accessing Mirror Worlds MUST be present in the Columns ter'angreal. Everything we've seen prior to ToM suggests that the columns have nothing to do with Mirror Worlds and everything to do with Blood Memory.

The basic technology for accessing the Mirror Worlds was already present and functional, why duplicate that hardware in addition to whatever is required for the ancestral search function.

Why not Blood memory AND Mirror Worlds?

To mix threads, there's an interesting discussion going on in the Callandor thread about the warding that prevented anyone but the DR from accessing it. What if, instead of a single-person-allowance, this ter'angreal was created with a trigger that would only be "pulled" if a person from one particular denomination attempted to use it. Then, when the first threshhold is crossed, that person gets access to their own genetic history, whether that's via Mirror Worlds, Blood Memory or accomplished in a way similar to how the Aelfinn and Eelfinn operate.

For all we know, the ter'angreal is simultaneously scanning the user's brain for memories to be used if/when the next generation passes through. The Aiel do come from a fairly small stock originally, so there'd be at least 2-3 ancestors that might've attempted to go through the pillars. Also, what's to say that the AS who created the thing didn't surreptitiously collect memories from the Aiel during their travels and use those as a sort of a start-up database.

Seeing the future through Blood Memory, as I pointed out in my previous post about non-ta'veren and variable sperm, is highly unlikely. The only way I could see that happen is if each descendant has a pre-determined soul and the ter'angreal is reading souls rather than physical bodies... but this track has its own can of worms.

I don't understand why it's so impossible to use different methods for looking into the past vs looking into the future. In order to look in front of you, you head is in a different position than when you try to look across your shoulder, after all. Unless you're driving and using a mirror (ha! see what I did there?) Why is it so inconceivable that the AS with Jenn Aiel foresaw the need to view both the past and the future and devised one ter'angreal with both functions, each function working on a different principle?

Weird Harold
04-27-2012, 07:41 AM
Why not Blood memory AND Mirror Worlds?

Added complexity at odds with the engineering of every other ter'angreal I can think of.

It isn't impossible, it just goes against the minimalist engineering evident in other AOL technology.

To mix threads, there's an interesting discussion going on in the Callandor thread about the warding that prevented anyone but the DR from accessing it. What if, instead of a single-person-allowance, this ter'angreal was created with a trigger that would only be "pulled" if a person from one particular denomination attempted to use it. Then, when the first threshhold is crossed, that person gets access to their own genetic history, whether that's via Mirror Worlds, Blood Memory or accomplished in a way similar to how the Aelfinn and Eelfinn operate.

Way more complicated than it needs to be.

The pattern arranged things so that nobody except an Aeil half-breed could draw Callandor and prevented anyone with Aeil blood from getting into Callandor's presence until
Rand was ready. :D

Seeing the future through Blood Memory, as I pointed out in my previous post about non-ta'veren and variable sperm, is highly unlikely. The only way I could see that happen is if each descendant has a pre-determined soul and the ter'angreal is reading souls rather than physical bodies... but this track has its own can of worms.

This is the most obvious flaw in Aviendha's "second trip" -- no viable suggestion for how the columns worked pre-ToM explains how they might work post-ToM.

The only means I can think of that will satisfy both possibilities is Pattern Reading and that leads to the conclusion that the future she saw is immutable. Pattern Reading is also far more complicated than pre-ToM function required.

I don't understand why it's so impossible to use different methods for looking into the past vs looking into the future.

It is NOT impossible, merely improbable and counter to the discernible engineering principles of known ter'angreal. If the columns were to access both blood and mirror worlds, it would be the only ter'angreal I can think of that accesses two different information reservoirs.

yks 6nnetu hing
04-27-2012, 08:14 AM
Added complexity at odds with the engineering of every other ter'angreal I can think of.

It isn't impossible, it just goes against the minimalist engineering evident in other AOL technology.

huh? minimalist in size but not function. Why on Earth would they not combine the functions into one device if they can? that's minimalist right there...

Weird Harold
04-27-2012, 09:04 AM
huh? minimalist in size but not function. Why on Earth would they not combine the functions into one device if they can? that's minimalist right there...

Not necessarily minimalist in size, but very minimalist in function. Every ter'angreal we encounter only has one mode of operation -- occasionally the appearance of multiple modes, but always within a close grouping of functionality.

The aforementioned Rings that show past, present, and Future uses T'A'R (as demonstrated by its interaction with Egwene's Ring) for all three presentations.

Egwene's Twisted Ring puts a sleeper into T'A'R but never put anyone into a Mirror World or forces an imbalanced link with anyone.

The Bowl of the Winds Controls all of the many factors involved in the weather, but I'd be very surprised if it could be used to Visit Mirror Worlds or the *Finn or if it could be used to generate Balefire.

Each ter'angreal has a narrowly defined purpose/mode of operation, including the Columns up to ToM.

That's minimalist from an engineering POV. Each ter'angreal is as complicated as it needs to be and not one iota more complicated.

yks 6nnetu hing
04-27-2012, 09:34 AM
The aforementioned Rings that show past, present, and Future uses T'A'R (as demonstrated by its interaction with Egwene's Ring) for all three presentations.

Egwene's Twisted Ring puts a sleeper into T'A'R but never put anyone into a Mirror World or forces an imbalanced link with anyone.

that's your opinion, not proven at all. the way back comes but once - you either step through a gateway or you stay. Forever. Whereas in t'a'r, you wake up and unless you were there in physical form, nothing has changed.

Also, in the Accepted test there's nobody controlling the scenes - all you have to do is go to the gateway. As opposed to the AS test, where a group of AS actively take part in creating a dream-like experience for the person taking the test. Accepted test - no guidance or interference from outside; AS test - total control from the outside.

The reason why the dream ter'angreal would resonate with the Acceptatron is that Mirror Worlds can be accessed via t'a'r. Technically, t'a'r already contains all mirror worlds, except what is solid and comfortable to the Dreamer seems "real" in t'a'r. If a dreamer wanted to, (s)he could enter t'a'r in the flesh, conjure up a fantastical situation and exit in the flesh into a mirror world.

Weird Harold
04-27-2012, 10:06 AM
The reason why the dream ter'angreal would resonate with the Acceptatron ...

I don't know of any other way RJ could have identified the operational mode of the Acceptatron without breaking the third wall and explicitly saying "this ter'angreal accesses T'A'R."

Everything that ter'angreal does can be explained in terms of accessing T'A'R without resorting to additional alternative realities.

Tamyrlin
04-27-2012, 10:16 AM
Everything that ter'angreal does can be explained in terms of accessing T'A'R without resorting to additional alternative realities.

Do you mean the Ring or the Arches? It's clear the Arches are not a direct entry way into T'A'R Proper, and certainly take into account a mix of T'A'R properties with Mirror World input data, and create something of their own, which turns into something akin to a dream bubble of a Mirror World inhabitant that matches the individual walking through the Arches.

Not that this particularly matters as far as your single use argument, but thought it useful to clear up.

yks 6nnetu hing
04-27-2012, 10:17 AM
I don't know of any other way RJ could have identified the operational mode of the Acceptatron without breaking the third wall and explicitly saying "this ter'angreal accesses T'A'R."

Everything that ter'angreal does can be explained in terms of accessing T'A'R without resorting to additional alternative realities.

in that case you have to admit he didn't do a very good job setting up t'a'r in allllll the rest of the books.

T'A'R is malleable, it flexes and moves according to the way the dreamer makes it. The Acceptatron is inflexible, the person gets dumped in a situation and the only option for her to manipulate it is to go through the gateway.

how do you explain that extremely blatant contradiction? Egwene was a dreamer, even untrained, she would have had some control over the processes... but she had none, therefore it wasn't t'a'r.

Grig
04-27-2012, 11:41 AM
RJ was an engineer by training. He thought like an Engineer.

and here I thought he was a physicist. Funny thing about Science types, they don't tend towards minimalism. And RJ is the opposite of a minimalist, in both his writing and his worldbuilding. So you're just pulling stuff out of your posterior, again, much like the ter'angreal only showing past or future thing.

A ter'angreal that just happens to use T'A'R as far as any discussion has determined.

The AS ter'angreal seems to just use TAR. The Acceptatron does not seem to, it is written more in common with the Portal Stones that allow the characters to go through all permutations of their lives when malfunctioning. Yes, it plays nicely with TAR, and some of the same rules apply...but TAR is also linked to mirror worlds, so at most it is written as if they access mirror world outcomes through TAR.

The only thing that those three ter'angreal have in common is that they are single-purpose devices that operate in a single, minimalist mode from an engineering viewpoint.

You're seriously claiming that, with the three examples here, they operate in "a single, minimalist mode" when two out of the three examples aren't even used for their original purpose? That makes no sense. And since you're referring to the many different ter'angreal we've seen, a sizable proportion of those that are actually used are not being used for their original purpose (Columns post-Aviendha, Acceptatron, AS testing machine, Fancloth maker). This makes a total mockery of holding them up as paragons of Engineering principle. Engineering favors minimalism to reduce the number of components susceptible to hardware failure, which has absolutely no bearing on how ter'angreal work.

You're taking Engineering rules of thumb and applying them to places where they don't fit. Rules are there for a reason. Said reason doesn't exist in Randland, when it comes to items of the Power. They only work, or they don't. Otherwise ter'angreal would be failing left and right due to the bathtub curve.

GonzoTheGreat
04-27-2012, 12:02 PM
that's your opinion, not proven at all. the way back comes but once - you either step through a gateway or you stay. Forever.
I'm gonna have to ask you for a quote on this.

One that is more authoritative than the example which Nynaeve gave us during her third passage in her Acceptance test (TGH, Chapter 23, The Testing), when she did precisely that which you state is impossible: she did not step through the gateway, had it disappear, then made it again herself and stepped through it anyway.

Weird Harold
04-27-2012, 05:23 PM
Do you mean the Ring or the Arches? It's clear the Arches are not a direct entry way into T'A'R Proper, and certainly take into account a mix of T'A'R properties with Mirror World input data, and create something of their own, which turns into something akin to a dream bubble of a Mirror World inhabitant that matches the individual walking through the Arches.

Not that this particularly matters as far as your single use argument, but thought it useful to clear up.
The ter'angreal ("Acceptatron?") in the White Tower is T'A'R based. (RJ hung a flashing neon sign on that one with the interaction with Egwene's ring)

The apprentice testing ter'angreal in Rhuidean is probably Mirror World based, although it could be T'A'R based instead. The information it shows (All possible futures) is the kind of information found in Mirror Worlds.

Weird Harold
04-27-2012, 05:50 PM
...two out of the three examples aren't even used for their original purpose?

What are their original purposes? How do you know they are being misused?

Most importantly, does the use they are put to change the way they work? Did the use to which they are put change one from T'A'R based to MW based? Did the change from Strieth to Fancloth make an automated loom not a loom?

Exactly how does the use to which they are put change the underlying principles of operation?

They only work, or they don't. Otherwise ter'angreal would be failing left and right due to the bathtub curve.

Given the scarcity of ter'angreal, how many must have failed "left and right" to leave only those at the top end of the curve?

Still, failure rates due to complexity are only part of the reason for not making multi-mode devices unless multi-mode functionality is absolutely required. More complex devices require more knowledge, more skill, more time, more materiel, more cost.

Tamyrlin
04-27-2012, 05:52 PM
The ter'angreal ("Acceptatron?") in the White Tower is T'A'R based. (RJ hung a flashing neon sign on that one with the interaction with Egwene's ring)


Egwene's ring interaction, everything we learn about dream bubbles and the GOI, and Rand's odd trip through the Portal Stone to Toman Head are three large signs hanging over the Arches telling us that the Acceptatron experience is a T'A'R/MW/Dream Bubble mix.

Grig
04-27-2012, 06:13 PM
What are their original purposes? How do you know they are being misused?

Those are two different things. We know they're not serving their original purposes because Team Jordan has said so. On top of that, in the books themselves it's noted that the Aes Sedai have no idea what the Warder cloak-making ter'angreal was made or used for. They just know they worked out a way to get it to spit out fancloth. If your "items of the Power only do one thing" rule stands, whoever said that would have to be a bleeding imbecile. Obviously, they recognize that ter'angreal can do multiple things, and this possibility is the expectation rather than the exception.

Given the scarcity of ter'angreal, how many must have failed "left and right" to leave only those at the top end of the curve?

THERE. IS. NO. CURVE. That's the point I was making. These are magically developed items, that follow magical rules. Not our engineering rules of thumb. They do not experience temperature sensitive wear and tear due to aging resistors. There has been no indication given that items of the power "wear out" and fail in the normal course of things. And again, you've provided no reason that items of the power that either read the pattern in some way or access Mirror Worlds through TAR do not natively access the past and the future. You just presuppose that past and future aren't or can't be done by the same item, even though we've seen it done with the Acceptatron (if it just used TAR like you keep saying, it would have to be like the AS test where the Aes Sedai manually insert training scenarios. It's not, it very clearly provides the person being tested with scenarios from Mirror Worlds, with scenarios that were only relevant in the past, with ones currently relevant, and with ones that could be relevant in the future).

Weird Harold
04-27-2012, 06:17 PM
Egwene's ring interaction, everything we learn about dream bubbles and the GOI, and Rand's odd trip through the Portal Stone to Toman Head are three large signs hanging over the Arches telling us that the Acceptatron experience is a T'A'R/MW/Dream Bubble mix.

I don't see how the Portal Stone trip to Falme reveals anything about the arches. Everything the arches do can be explained by the properties of T'A'R (the subset known as "Dream Bubbles.") There is no need to access Mirror Worlds to build a scenario from a candidate's subconscious.

Weird Harold
04-27-2012, 06:57 PM
... On top of that, in the books themselves it's noted that the Aes Sedai have no idea what the Warder cloak-making ter'angreal was made or used for. They just know they worked out a way to get it to spit out fancloth.

Did they change its output from Streith (or denim or taffeta) to fancloth, or did they take an AOL paving machine and force it to act like a loom?

The Warder-cloak maker still makes cloth which is what it was designed to do. The only thing the WT changed by experimentation is the kind of cloth it makes.

If your "items of the Power only do one thing" rule stands, whoever said that would have to be a bleeding imbecile. Obviously, they recognize that ter'angreal can do multiple things

Yes, some ter'angreal do multiple things. My point, which you seem to be willfully distorting, is that everything a ter'angreal does falls into a tight group within a single mode of operation. A Ter'angreal may do multiple T'A'R based things, but it doesn't also make fancloth or create Waygates.


THERE. IS. NO. CURVE. That's the point I was making.

Making everything caps does not make it true. :D

And again, you've provided no reason that items of the power that either read the pattern in some way or access Mirror Worlds through TAR do not natively access the past and the future. You just presuppose that past and future aren't or can't be done by the same item, ...

I've never said that the same ter'angreal can't show past and future, I've said the Crystal Columns Ter'angreal can't show the future using what was understood about its pre-ToM depiction.


Every pre-ToM theory of operation for the Columns presumes a source of information that doesn't include the future -- the candidate, the candidate's thread, etc. No pre-ToM theory I know of suggested an ability to tap into the mirror worlds. For nearly 3,000 years, the columns had no need to go outside of the physical confines of the ter'angreal and Candidate to perform their function.

Now, suddenly, every theory discards decades of discussion and careful questioning of RJ to require the Columns to access T'A'R, the MWs, The Pattern, Past Turnings, and Rand's underwear, all at the same time.

IF Aviendha did change the operation of the Columns, I contend that the new operation works in the same mode with the same hardware as the original mode. If the ter'angreal did work on only the information contained within the ter'angreal and Candidate, then the future shown must be derivable from the same information source.


Whatever basic principles of operation explain Aviendha's future vision must also explain the previous operation. Otherwise, two ter'angreal would be a less complex solution, especially since a ter'angreal to tap into the mirror worlds was already present in Rhuidean.

Tamyrlin
04-27-2012, 09:55 PM
I don't see how the Portal Stone trip to Falme reveals anything about the arches. Everything the arches do can be explained by the properties of T'A'R (the subset known as "Dream Bubbles.") There is no need to access Mirror Worlds to build a scenario from a candidate's subconscious.

In order to become them self when entering a Dream Bubble where they lose recognition of them self outside of the Dream Bubble, they must enter a Dream Bubble where the idea of them self already exists in a dream state. We've seen this where Gawyn was dreaming of Egwene and she entered that dream and became herself, but within the confines of his dream and subject to the parameters of the dreamer's dream. The physical nature of the entry seems to allow them to disconnect their consciousness from their dream identity in order to leave through the gateway that the device creates with this dream bubble.

We know that all Dreams of all worlds, including dreams of MW's inhabitants exist in the GOI, so in even that sense it's clear that this device would have access to MW input data if it has access to the GOI. It makes the most sense that the device is capable of attracting Mirror World versions of the individual's dream bubbles attuned to the individual's soul using the device in order to insert them physically into a Dream Bubble of their MW inhabitant. Although, I'm open to an artificial bubble fed by data collected through MW's, in order to create past, and future variations of the world that did not take place and may not take place.

We see something along these lines, although not exactly the same considering the very focused nature of the kinds of experience Rand had repeatedly when we see Rand's trips to an infinite amount of MW versions of himself through his four month long trip through the Portal Stone. In fact, isn't one of Rand's experiences close to one of Egwene's? I'll have to go back and check that.

Also, it is clear that Egwene's trips involved information she did not bring in with her:

TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 22 - The Price of The Ring
There was an Aes Sedai at her elbow, a woman with Sheriam's high cheekbones but dark hair and concerned brown eyes, and the hand-wide stole of the Keeper on her shoulders. Not Sheriam, though. Egwene had never seen her before; she was sure she knew her as well as she knew herself. Haltingly, she put a name to the woman. Beldeine.

It's obvious that this information came from a future mirror world through T'A'R connection to MW's.

Weird Harold
04-27-2012, 10:53 PM
Also, it is clear that Egwene's trips involved information she did not bring in with her:

TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 22 - The Price of The Ring
There was an Aes Sedai at her elbow, a woman with Sheriam's high cheekbones but dark hair and concerned brown eyes, and the hand-wide stole of the Keeper on her shoulders. Not Sheriam, though. Egwene had never seen her before; she was sure she knew her as well as she knew herself. Haltingly, she put a name to the woman. Beldeine.

It's obvious that this information came from a future mirror world through T'A'R connection to MW's.

I think you are as wedded to a Mirror World connection as I am to ter'angreals built with a single mode of operation. :D

Egwene is a Dreamer. Dreamers and Dreamwalkers can tell the future from T'A'R alone. Egwene has never knowingly or deliberately sought the interface between T'A'R and a Mirror World, but she has had Prophetic Dreams.

Nyneave's manipulation of her third pass through the ter'angreal is probably a better argument for unknown names that turn out to be real people, but even that example is far more T'A'R-like than MW-like.

Tamyrlin
04-27-2012, 11:24 PM
I think you are as wedded to a Mirror World connection as I am to ter'angreals built with a single mode of operation. :D


Quite possibly, lol. However, you are much more wedded to never allowing for Mirror World input in regards to these ter'angreal, which is odd, because it's such a fruitful source of data.


Egwene is a Dreamer. Dreamers and Dreamwalkers can tell the future from T'A'R alone. Egwene has never knowingly or deliberately sought the interface between T'A'R and a Mirror World, but she has had Prophetic Dreams.


This is such a confusing statement. T'A'R is a third constant present in ALL WORLDS. T'A'R data includes data acquired through Mirror Worlds. It's so tied into Mirror Worlds, the GOI is full of the dreams of all...yet you persist in ignoring it...which is odd. Where do you think the futures the Dreamwalkers see come from such as the ones the Wise Ones saw that didn't actually happen the way they saw it would? T'A'R is the interface connecting all of these worlds. Dreamwalking is walking the variations of the future, thanks to MW input.

Obviously, since what Egwene experiences in the Arches is not the exact future, but a future with data that turns out to be part of her future but not in the exact manner she experienced it, it wasn't Prophetic Dreaming, it was more akin to Dreamwalking through future variations (Mirror Worlds).


Nyneave's manipulation of her third pass through the ter'angreal is probably a better argument for unknown names that turn out to be real people, but even that example is far more T'A'R-like than MW-like.

I don't need anything more than Egwene's experiences and Rand's experiences in the Portal Stone, along with the Wise One's explanation of the GOI and Egwene's experiences. It's quite clear. I'm not sure why you are ignoring how T'A'R, dreams and Mirror Worlds interrelate in this regard and instead pushing for this Ter'angreal to be completely clean of Mirror World data...yet insisting it involves Dreamwalking and T'A'R...

Weird Harold
04-28-2012, 12:25 AM
Quite possibly, lol. However, you are much more wedded to never allowing for Mirror World input in regards to these ter'angreal, which is odd, because it's such a fruitful source of data.

Not "these" ter'angreal, "this" ter'angreal.

The arches in the WT that resonate with egwene's ring access whatever information they need outside of the Candidate via T'A'R and T'A'R alone -- just as The Twisted Ring puts the sleeper into T'A'R and only T'A'R.

The Rhuidean arches, otoh, access Mirror Worlds and only Mirror Words for any information required outside of the Candidate.

According to RJ, the Portal Stones access Mirror Worlds and only Mirror Worlds.

The Redstone Doorways each permit access to a parallel dimension and ONLY that parallel dimension. (The ToG also allows access to the same parallel dimension and I don't recall any access to any other parallel dimensions.)

This is such a confusing statement. T'A'R is a third constant present in ALL WORLDS. ...

It is present in all worlds, but many characters have been seen in T'A'R without noticing any mirror world contact. T'A'R touches all Mirror Worlds, but not necessarily where anyone from "Reality-Prime" might stumble across them.

I'm not sure why you are ignoring how T'A'R, dreams and Mirror Worlds interrelate in this regard and instead pushing for this Ter'angreal to be completely clean of Mirror World data...yet insisting it involves Dreamwalking and T'A'R...

I'm not ignoring how everything inter-relates. The point I'm trying to make is that ter'angreal take only one path to the information available. A ter'angreal doesn't invoke T'A'R, Mirror Worlds, et al, it just invokes T'A'R and uses whatever information can be found there -- even if the information is an image of a mirror world.

Other ter'angreal access information via direct contact with Mirror Worlds and uses whatever information can be found there -- without needing to explicitly access T'A'R or any other dimension/information source.

What I'm trying to get across is that a ter'angreal can access information by interfacing with T'A'R OR it can access information by interfacing with the Mirror Worlds, but is unlikely to be able to interface with Both -- and generally won't need to access both because almost everything is interconnected by T'A'R anyway.

Swordcrowned
04-28-2012, 09:35 AM
It isn't really a question of what is possible, it is a question of where the information is most easily accessed. Everything required for pre-ToM operation can be found in "Old Blood." Nothing required for post-ToM "operation" can be found in "Old Blood."

This entire series is woven around a "Pattern". A pattern by definition is predictable. Im not saying that she was being showed the actual future, but what the future is going to be like from the decisions that had been made up to that point.

Flinn Sedai
04-28-2012, 09:39 AM
This entire series is woven around a "Pattern". A pattern by definition is predictable. Im not saying that she was being showed the actual future, but what the future is going to be like from the decisions that had been made up to that point.

Depends on the definition of Pattern.

In this case, it's more like a quilting Pattern, than a geometric Pattern. You can't look back on your quilting Pattern, and tell where you're going.

Swordcrowned
04-28-2012, 09:49 AM
Depends on the definition of Pattern.

In this case, it's more like a quilting Pattern, than a geometric Pattern. You can't look back on your quilting Pattern, and tell where you're going.

Why not? We know each life is a thread in the pattern, and that life is pretty much on a set course. A fisherman cannot become a king unless he is taveren.

And your right about the quilting pattern, but can you not look at a half finished quilt and predict with relative certainty what it would look like completed?

Flinn Sedai
04-28-2012, 09:51 AM
Why not? We know each life is a thread in the pattern, and that life is pretty much on a set course. A fisherman cannot become a king unless he is taveren.

And your right about the quilting pattern, but can you not look at a half finished quilt and predict with relative certainty what it would look like completed?

But a life is not on a set course.

Swordcrowned
04-28-2012, 10:30 AM
But a life is not on a set course.

Yours and mine are not on a set course. The characters in Randland are. Unless they are Ta'veren.

Flinn Sedai
04-28-2012, 10:33 AM
Yours and mine are not on a set course. The characters in Randland are. Unless they are Ta'veren.

Based on what?

Also, if anything, ta'veren have a more set path than anybody else.

Swordcrowned
04-28-2012, 10:40 AM
Based on what?

Also, if anything, ta'veren have a more set path than anybody else.

Based on the series and how it describes each persons life as a thread in the Pattern. And Ta'veren may at times be held tighter to the pattern than others, but they are the only ones who can force the pattern to weave around them.

I will try to find some quotes on this, but it will have to wait til i get back to the states next week.

fionwe1987
04-28-2012, 01:40 PM
Whatever basic principles of operation explain Aviendha's future vision must also explain the previous operation. Otherwise, two ter'angreal would be a less complex solution, especially since a ter'angreal to tap into the mirror worlds was already present in Rhuidean.
I did provide a basic principle of operation that can explain both the usual functions of the Galss Columns pre-ToM and explain how it worked for Aviendha in ToM. Quite simply, Mirror World data can easily be used to infer the actual past.

And Mirror World data was used to show Aviendha the most likely future based on decisions made up to the point she started seeing the visions. Aviendha senses an "awareness" from the ter'angreal. I think that is simply RJ's/BS's code for "supercomputer". The Glass Columns access Mirror World data, either from the World of Dreams or in a manner similar to Portal Stones (whose architecture they even resemble, in some ways). Unlike the Apprentice rings, however, they don't show all possible Mirror World variations but instead calculate the actual past and the most probably future based on current trends.

Since doing these kind of calculations for everyone who tries to use it would strain the ter'angreal, it has been programmed to do this only for the Aiel. By looking at Mirror World data for a person, the ter'angreal can easily compute if said person is of the particular bloodline it is programmed to respond to. If it detects such a person, it stops being quiescent, lights up, and begins computing the past and showing it to this person. If it is a non-Aiel, it ignores them and doesn't get activated.

There, a simple explanation for how the ter'angreal works that contradicts nothing in the books and sticks to your ridiculous idea that a ter'angreal can only do one kind of thing.

Incidentally, I'm typing this out on a tablet, that is able to access the internet, while at the same time, send music to my bluetooth headphones, and also use its GPS radio to pinpoint my locations. It can also take pictures, record sound, allows me to play games, edit documents, and any number of other things.

I know, its shocking. But if our civilization, which is far from the technological pinnacle that was reached in the AoL, can make millions of devices that can do many things, I'm having a hard time believing this civilization could only produce single-purpose machines.

As for multipurpose ter'angreal in the text... consider the weavebreakers Mat and Cadsuane have. They can sense channeling, break any weaves thrown at them, they also sense contact with a human, since they only work when they're touching a person, and in the case of Elayne's modified versions, they also stop the person who's being touched from channeling. And it is possible Cadsuane's version also allows you to project its ability and break weaves that are far away.

Then take the Dreamspike. It protects the dreams of those sleeping in its range. It creates a physical barrier in TAR, and creates a barrier against Traveling in the real world corresponding to its TAR location.

Then take the Far Madding Guardian. It blocks access to saidin and saidar, but at different ranges. It is also a directional sensor of One Power use.

Then take the Access Keys. They were made for safely drawing immense amounts of Power through the sa'angreal they're paired to. Yet they allow Rand to channel an immense amount of Power through them and remotely destroy the sa'angreal they're connected to. It is doubtful this was ever an intended function of this ter'angreal, but Rand either bludgeoned it with the huge amounts of OP he was channeling or her did something to make it allow him to do something it wasn't made to do.

Weird Harold
04-28-2012, 04:14 PM
Incidentally, I'm typing this out on a tablet, that is able to access the internet, while at the same time, send music to my bluetooth headphones, and also use its GPS radio to pinpoint my locations. It can also take pictures, record sound, allows me to play games, edit documents, and any number of other things.

How many radio stations or TV stations does your tablet receive that don't come through its wireless connection to the internet? How much of anything not in its immediate vicinity can it access by any means other than its wireless modem?

("GPS" in most tablets is a function of the wireless/cell tower triangulations instead of actually listening to the global positioning satellites.)

I've never said that multi-mode devices aren't possible, only that we haven't seen any.

<More later>

fionwe1987
04-28-2012, 04:39 PM
How many radio stations or TV stations does your tablet receive that don't come through its wireless connection to the internet? How much of anything not in its immediate vicinity can it access by any means other than its wireless modem?

("GPS" in most tablets is a function of the wireless/cell tower triangulations instead of actually listening to the global positioning satellites.)

I've never said that multi-mode devices aren't possible, only that we haven't seen any.

<More later>

My tablet has a separate GPS. The point I'm making is that multimode devices aren't all that hard to make in our own world. And we actually don't have access to a perpetual energy source, or to indestructible materials. Nor do individuals in our world have the ability to change the molecular architecture of materials. With all those things, the AoL could easily have made multimode devices to put ours to shame. No reason the Glass Columns can't be one such.

Weird Harold
04-28-2012, 04:43 PM
This entire series is woven around a "Pattern". A pattern by definition is predictable. ...

In the WOT, "The Pattern" is more than simply predictable, it is virtually set in stone as far as some predictive Talents are concerned. Generally "Pattern Reading," (by Talents like Foretelling or Min's viewings,) is considered an absolute, immutable, vision of the Future.

The Columns could be a "Pattern Reading Device" which could indeed show the "True History Of The Aeil" and a vision of the future. The only problem With that idea is that it means Aviendha's secoond trip showed an immutable future.

In past discussions, Pattern Reading has been considered the second-most unlikely mode of operation because it it requires the most amount of paranormal interfacing -- iow, it would be far more complicated than simply "taking a blood sample" and analyzing it.

I don't have any real problem with the Columns as a "Pattern Reading Device," but I do have a problem with linking that mode of operation to a mutable view of the future -- and the various impossibilities and improbabilities shown to Aviendha.

Adopting that view means the Columns are vastly more complicated than they needed to be for a couple of thousand years of operation, just to enable a one-time preview. (Assuming Aviendha did break the ter'angreal rather than it just ceasing to work for her.)

Weird Harold
04-28-2012, 05:02 PM
Then take the Far Madding Guardian. It blocks access to saidin and saidar, but at different ranges. It is also a directional sensor of One Power use.

IIRC, the glossary says that the Far Madding "Guardian" is actually three separate ter'angreal.


I did provide a basic principle of operation that can explain both the usual functions of the Glass Columns pre-ToM and explain how it worked for Aviendha in ToM. Quite simply, Mirror World data can easily be used to infer the actual past.

Why would the builders of the Columns choose to infer from the mirror worlds what can be provided without inference from within the Candidate?

If the just had to provide a "display future" function, why not "Read the Pattern" and provide absolute, immutable, information in both directions without needing to infer or compute anything?

And Mirror World data was used to show Aviendha the most likely future ...

The most likely?:confused:

Is it likely that Aviendha's children should be in contact with the OP from birth?

Is it likely that the Aeil would be excluded from the Dragon's Peace?

There, a simple explanation for how the ter'angreal works that contradicts nothing in the books and sticks to your ridiculous idea that a ter'angreal can only do one kind of thing.

Your ideas of "simple" and "most likely" sure don't match mine. :D

Weird Harold
04-28-2012, 05:21 PM
My tablet has a separate GPS. The point I'm making is that multimode devices aren't all that hard to make in our own world. And we actually don't have access to a perpetual energy source, or to indestructible materials. Nor do individuals in our world have the ability to change the molecular architecture of materials. With all those things, the AoL could easily have made multimode devices to put ours to shame. No reason the Glass Columns can't be one such.

How many of your tablet's external functions rely on something other than a wireless/RF connection?

How many of its internal functions are not some variation on manipulation of binary numbers?

I've never said that multi-mode operation wasn't possible, only that it is uncommon for the ter'angreal we have seen.

The only "multi-mode" ter'angreal I can think of at the moment is also an example of single purpose design -- the Bowl Of The Winds.

earlier, I said, "The Bowl of the Winds Controls all of the many factors involved in the weather, but I'd be very surprised if it could be used to Visit Mirror Worlds or the *Finn or if it could be used to generate Balefire." That was an argument that the BotW is a single purpose ter'angreal.

But, the BotW draws both Saidar and Saidin on its own to perform its single purpose; in that sense, it is multi-mode, since we've seen very few other ter'angreal capable of drawing both sides of the OP.

I'm not saying that the AOL could not build multi-function or multi-mode ter'angreal, I'm saying they generally did not. They built elegant devices with exactly as much complexity as required and not one bell or whistle extra.

(PS: Does your tablet have an AC Power input? Or does it have a separate external converter/adapter for AC Power and battery charging?)

Flinn Sedai
04-28-2012, 09:42 PM
In the WOT, "The Pattern" is more than simply predictable, it is virtually set in stone as far as some predictive Talents are concerned. Generally "Pattern Reading," (by Talents like Foretelling or Min's viewings,) is considered an absolute, immutable, vision of the Future.

That's not true. There is a rather lengthy discussion on the topic, over here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6765#38).

tl;dr - Prophecies are conditional, and Min's viewings are not the same thing.

edit: Also, the Guardians are two ter'angreal. One to stop saidar, one to stop saidin.

Swordcrowned
04-28-2012, 09:58 PM
That's not true. There is a rather lengthy discussion on the topic, over here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6765#38).

tl;dr - Prophecies are conditional, and Min's viewings are not the same thing.

edit: Also, the Guardians are two ter'angreal. One to stop saidar, one to stop saidin.

The gaurdian is three ter'angreal. Three discs. One to stop saidar, one to stop saidin, and one to track channelers. :D

EDIT: I just realized you probably knew that and were only speaking about the two protective ter'angreals.

Weird Harold
04-29-2012, 12:49 AM
That's not true. There is a rather lengthy discussion on the topic, over here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6765#38).

You being loudly wrong in that thread doesn't make you right in this one. :D

I have less faith in a new discussion by relative N00Bs than I do in a couple of decades of discussion that explored these issues in far more depth than the half dozen posts you linked.

tl;dr - Prophecies are conditional, and Min's viewings are not the same thing.

Confusion reigns -- because people, including Brandon Sanderson, don't make a distinction between "Prophecy" and "prophecy."

In short, with the exception of the "corruption" difference between Randland's copies of The Karetheon Cycle and Seanchan copies, Prophecy, with a Capital letter are absolute predictions from 2,000 - 3,000 years ago. What is written will absolutely happen -- if you can figure out what a Prophecy means.

Foretelling, with a capital, the OP Talent, is an absolute prediction. This is distinct from generic "foretelling" which is any predictive effort from any source. According to RJ, Foretelling, the OP Talent, is absolute and immutable if hard to decipher to the point of worthlessness.

Dreaming is variable. It can show absolute, immutable, future events and it can provide warning in time to avert a mutable future.

Dreamwalking is nearly always conditional. Although it can (and will) predict immutable futures, Dreamwalking is usually just an aid to making decisions and/or finding resources.

According to RJ, Min's Viewings are always of the future and immutable -- whether she understands them or not.

Finally, recent predictive phenomenon are less absolute because the Pattern is loosening. Predictive phenomenon -- whether Dark Prophecy or Light Prophecy -- WILL happen according to Prophecy if they are old enough to be recorded and were transcribed accurately.


edit: Also, the Guardians are two ter'angreal. One to stop saidar, one to stop saidin.

A bit of research failed to turn up the glossary entry I thought I remembered. An incomplete search of references to Far Madding's Guardian all refer to to it as a single device, although the description is of three "cloudy disks" and three independent functions/ranges which would suggest separate ter'angreal that function independently of the other two. It is unclear which is the case.

I personally suspect that the Guardian is like a Paralis Net referred to as a single unit, but made up of independent ter'angreal for each different function, but can find no definitive declaration either way.

Flinn Sedai
04-29-2012, 01:48 AM
You being loudly wrong in that thread doesn't make you right in this one. :D

You being loudly wrong in this thread doesn't make you right in that one :cool:

I have less faith in a new discussion by relative N00Bs than I do in a couple of decades of discussion that explored these issues in far more depth than the half dozen posts you linked.

I've been around here almost as long as you have.

Confusion reigns -- because people, including Brandon Sanderson, don't make a distinction between "Prophecy" and "prophecy."

In short, with the exception of the "corruption" difference between Randland's copies of The Karetheon Cycle and Seanchan copies, Prophecy, with a Capital letter are absolute predictions from 2,000 - 3,000 years ago. What is written will absolutely happen -- if you can figure out what a Prophecy means.

Foretelling, with a capital, the OP Talent, is an absolute prediction. This is distinct from generic "foretelling" which is any predictive effort from any source. According to RJ, Foretelling, the OP Talent, is absolute and immutable if hard to decipher to the point of worthlessness.

Like this example of Foretelling?

“I see him before you! Him, the one who lives many lives, the one who gives deaths, the one who raises mountains. He will break what he must break, but first he stands here, before our king. You will bloody him! Measure his restraint. He speaks! How was the fallen slain? Tellindal Tirraso, murdered by his hand, the darkness that came the day after the light. You must ask, and you must know your fate. If he cannot answer, then you will be lost. You will bring his end swiftly, so that the final days may have their storm. So that Light may not be consumed by he who was to have preserved it. I see him. And I weep.”

Sounds pretty definite to me ;)

Also, we have Siuan, Lanfear, Rand/LTT (and arguably Cadsuane), all pointing to Prophecy not being absolute. That, as Rand said, "prophecy set the conditions that had to be met for a thing to happen; only, meeting them did not mean the thing would happen, just that it could."

What RJ said was that Foretellings were valid, but hard to decipher. Valid != absolute. Especially in the context of the question. The question was relating to the instability of the Pattern. RJ's answer was saying that the instability has not changed the validity of Foretellings.

He also said that Min's viewings are absolute future. This, I have stipulated to. It's about accuracy and precision. Foretelling typically has high precision (detrimentally so), but lower accuracy, whereas Min's viewings have low precision, but complete accuracy.

In a Prophecy regarding a trip to the supermarket, here's how they would present:

Foretelling: "You will go to the market. While at the market, you will take 3 steps inside, look to the right, and see a truly appealing watermelon. You will squeeze it two times, and then decide to place it in your cart. The wheel on your cart will squeak. You will find it irritating."

Viewing: "You will get a watermelon."

Now, what happens in that supermarket, is up in the air. With the Foretelling, it's possible that you do not get a watermelon. What you're being told, in that scenario, is that to get a watermelon, you have to take 3 steps inside, look to the right, then squeeze it two times, and place it in the cart. Events may conspire to make it more likely, but it is possible that you don't do it.

With Min's viewing, it doesn't matter what you do. You could not even go into the produce section. You try to rush out the door as quickly as possible. Except that something will happen, to ensure that you get a watermelon. Because it absolutely must happen.

Dreaming is variable. It can show absolute, immutable, future events and it can provide warning in time to avert a mutable future.

Dreamwalking is nearly always conditional. Although it can (and will) predict immutable futures, Dreamwalking is usually just an aid to making decisions and/or finding resources.

Do we have any indication that Dreaming can provide immutable information? I've only seen evidence and quotes indicating that they're possible, like Dreamwalking.

According to RJ, Min's Viewings are always of the future and immutable -- whether she understands them or not.

Yep. It's inapplicable to the pillars, though, because it's two entirely different things. It's like being able to pick out one phrase in a book. Actually, Wheel of Time, is a great example of this.

Min's viewing, is like being able to say that in the next book, the wind will rise. It's a single piece of information, not a sequence. Highly accurate, but with very little precision. When will it rise? Where? What's the significance? Min's viewings don't give that information. Foretelling (and likewise, the pillars), do.

Finally, recent predictive phenomenon are less absolute because the Pattern is loosening. Predictive phenomenon -- whether Dark Prophecy or Light Prophecy -- WILL happen according to Prophecy if they are old enough to be recorded and were transcribed accurately.

Prophecy is the criteria to be met. Not an absolute of what will happen. We know this, because we've heard Foretelling, where the person uses a conditional statement. No conditional statements, if your Foretelling is an absolute future.

A bit of research failed to turn up the glossary entry I thought I remembered. An incomplete search of references to Far Madding's Guardian all refer to to it as a single device, although the description is of three "cloudy disks" and three independent functions/ranges which would suggest separate ter'angreal that function independently of the other two. It is unclear which is the case.

I personally suspect that the Guardian is like a Paralis Net referred to as a single unit, but made up of independent ter'angreal for each different function, but can find no definitive declaration either way.

Well, this is actually frustrating. I just read Rand (who knows them from when they were made), refer to them as both 'the Guardians' (plural), and 'the Guardian' (singular), in identical circumstances.

I guess I took the first instance (plural), and just assumed they were considered multiple Guardians, that can work independently of each other.

Weird Harold
04-29-2012, 03:34 AM
You being loudly wrong in this thread doesn't make you right in that one :cool:

It would hard to be right OR wrong since I have never posted on that thread (or many Padan Fain threads at all.)

I've been around here almost as long as you have.

:confused:

Weird Harold
Hero of the Horn
Join Date: Dec 2005

Flinn Sedai
Youngling
Join Date: Nov 2010

:confused:

Those dates only reflect registration in the vBulletin database, I'd already been around long enough in the ezBoard and yucky versions of the forums to be a HotH when vBulletin was set up (the first time)

Care to explain how 2/7ths as long in vBulletin alone is "almost as long?"

Prophecy is the criteria to be met. Not an absolute of what will happen. We know this, because we've heard Foretelling, where the person uses a conditional statement. No conditional statements, if your Foretelling is an absolute future.

So a Prophecy that says, in effect, "A choice must be made" is invalid?

Flinn Sedai
04-29-2012, 03:40 AM
It would hard to be right OR wrong since I have never posted on that thread (or many Padan Fain threads at all.)

I said "this thread".

:confused:

Weird Harold
Hero of the Horn
Join Date: Dec 2005

Flinn Sedai
Youngling
Join Date: Nov 2010

:confused:

Those dates only reflect registration in the vBulletin database, I'd already been around long enough in the ezBoard and yucky versions of the forums to be a HotH when vBulletin was set up (the first time)

Care to explain how 2/7ths as long in vBulletin alone is "almost as long?"

You do know I was back on Yuku too, right? I didn't really go onto the foums much, but I posted in the theories from about 2004. I also don't see the relevance. And you have been around longer, but I'm nowhere near new.

So a Prophecy that says, in effect, "A choice must be made" is invalid?

I didn't say invalid. I said it didn't provide an absolute, and immutable future. If it sees two potential futures, then almost by definition, it doesn't see one future that absolutely must happen.

Weird Harold
04-29-2012, 04:05 AM
I said "this thread".



you said, "...doesn't make you right in that one"

You do know I was back on Yuku too, right? I didn't really go onto the forums much, but I posted in the theories from about 2004. I also don't see the relevance. And you have been around longer, but I'm nowhere near new.

Actually, no I don't recall you from the yucky forums because I had trouble with Yuku crashing my old computer. All I have to go by is your join date. I don't frequent much of the site except the forums.

With the exception of Ishara the participants in that discussion have join dates similar to yours -- i.e. after ToM came out, so the "N00Bs" remark was directed at all of the participants, rather than you specifically

Flinn Sedai
04-29-2012, 09:24 AM
you said, "...doesn't make you right in that one"

Ah. Yeah, I was basically saying that your posts here, doesn't make you correct, on the same topic, as discussed in that one.

It was clever, and I know this, because the best jokes, are the ones that you have to explain :D

Actually, no I don't recall you from the yucky forums because I had trouble with Yuku crashing my old computer. All I have to go by is your join date. I don't frequent much of the site except the forums.

With the exception of Ishara the participants in that discussion have join dates similar to yours -- i.e. after ToM came out, so the "N00Bs" remark was directed at all of the participants, rather than you specifically

I gotcha. Anyways, I have been mostly lurking, for a few years. With the last book coming out...

Weird Harold
04-29-2012, 06:27 PM
Just to get the discussion back on track:

Since doing these kind of calculations for everyone who tries to use it would strain the ter'angreal, it has been programmed to do this only for the Aiel. By looking at Mirror World data for a person, the ter'angreal can easily compute if said person is of the particular bloodline it is programmed to respond to.

Why build a ter'angreal that has to strain to perform calculations when there are far simpler methods to determine whether the Candidate is Aeil and find appropriate ancestors' information?

Why would the ter'angreal strain itself for non-aeil when all it has to do is test for Aeil-ness first and simply ignore everyone who fail the first stage of testing--which it obviously did/does.

As for multipurpose ter'angreal in the text... consider the weavebreakers Mat and Cadsuane have. They can sense channeling, break any weaves thrown at them, they also sense contact with a human, since they only work when they're touching a person, and in the case of Elayne's modified versions, they also stop the person who's being touched from channeling. And it is possible Cadsuane's version also allows you to project its ability and break weaves that are far away.

A simple "ground" would do all of those things for electricity, why would shorting out the OP be more complicated?

Cadsuane's version is part of a "Paralis Net" -- referred to by Rand-sedai as a singular ter'angreal. According to your idea of "simple" it should actually BE a single ter'angreal, but it is not.

A "paralis net" is a set of single function/single purpose ter'angreal that all operate independently -- there are no physical or meta-physical connections between the individual components. The only thing they have in common are esthetics -- Cadsuane's components are hair ornaments, Nyneave's are a Jewelry Set.

Mat's medallion might even be just one component of a "Paralis Net."

Why would such "masters of integration" as you presuppose AOL ter'angreal makers to be make individual, discrete, components instead of combining them into a single "black-box" that does everything?

Tamyrlin
04-29-2012, 08:25 PM
What I'm trying to get across is that a ter'angreal can access information by interfacing with T'A'R OR it can access information by interfacing with the Mirror Worlds, but is unlikely to be able to interface with Both -- and generally won't need to access both because almost everything is interconnected by T'A'R anyway.

Oh...so we agree. T'A'R is capable of feeding such data to the Ter'angreal (which it obviously is doing in the case of the Ter'angreal Arches).

So what were we disagreeing about? Oh yes, the Columns Ter'angreal. It might be useful to get a question out there and see if they'll answer whether or not it was manufactured after they arrived in Rhuidean, or if like the others it was something that was brought to Rhuidean.

Terez
04-29-2012, 08:55 PM
I just wanted to say that it's been fun watching Weird Harold condescend to noobs in my relative absence. Carry on.

Weird Harold
04-29-2012, 10:59 PM
Oh...so we agree. T'A'R is capable of feeding such data to the Ter'angreal (which it obviously is doing in the case of the Ter'angreal Arches).

I don't know about "obviously doing" because I think the properties of T'A'R alone can account for the experiences inside the WT Testing arches.

So what were we disagreeing about? Oh yes, the Columns Ter'angreal. It might be useful to get a question out there and see if they'll answer whether or not it was manufactured after they arrived in Rhuidean, or if like the others it was something that was brought to Rhuidean.

I'm not sure what benefit knowing that would provide. Arguments for and against the various modes of access can be made in either case.

It seems to me that it really doesn't matter if they built a ter'angreal from scratch, scrambled together a half-dozen ter'angreal, or adapted a carnival fun-house ter'angreal, the question still remains whether they programmed it to change function as radically as the Columns seem to have done.

The possibility of them working to the instructions of a Foretelling also leads to the possibility of any kind of daisy-chained, multiple access, Kluge-work the most Looney Tune of Theories could imagine.

The Columns don't seem to be a Rube Goldberg machine, but who knows for sure. FWIW, There don't seem to be many of those in the WOT

Terez
04-29-2012, 11:58 PM
No WH, not 'trollery'. It's just amusing. ;)

aleuthard
04-30-2012, 01:01 PM
you said, "...doesn't make you right in that one"



Actually, no I don't recall you from the yucky forums because I had trouble with Yuku crashing my old computer. All I have to go by is your join date. I don't frequent much of the site except the forums.

With the exception of Ishara the participants in that discussion have join dates similar to yours -- i.e. after ToM came out, so the "N00Bs" remark was directed at all of the participants, rather than you specifically

So what you're saying is that everyone who joined after a certain date isn't worth reading? Good to know. The community is set. Go away noobs. Got it.:rolleyes:

GonzoTheGreat
04-30-2012, 01:28 PM
So what you're saying is that everyone who joined after a certain date isn't worth reading? Good to know. The community is set. Go away noobs. Got it.:rolleyes:
You'll have to admit that it does greatly simplify arguments.

Swordcrowned
04-30-2012, 01:38 PM
You'll have to admit that it does greatly simplify arguments.

Good answer.

Grig
04-30-2012, 02:16 PM
I have less faith in a new discussion by relative N00Bs than I do in a couple of decades of discussion that explored these issues in far more depth than the half dozen posts you linked.

If decades resulted in you trying to apply electrical engineering failure modes to One Power items, you were wasting your time. Not to mention the whole "single use" insanity when the books have, from the very beginning, put lie to that by talking about ter'angreal used for off-label purposes.

I just regret that you being around long enough to get a vanity title means I can't ignore you.

Weird Harold
04-30-2012, 02:16 PM
So what you're saying is that everyone who joined after a certain date isn't worth reading? Good to know. The community is set. Go away noobs. Got it.:rolleyes:

Nope, I don't mean that at all.

Decades of discussion by a hundred members or so tend to have raised and refuted more points than a half-dozen posts by two or three N00Bs. N00Bs often bring a fresh viewpoint, but not until the obvious points refuted by RJ, Brandon, and the books have been dealt with.

Weird Harold
04-30-2012, 02:24 PM
If decades resulted in you trying to apply electrical engineering failure modes to One Power items, you were wasting your time. ...

Not failure modes, design considerations. Things like cost/benefit considerations, manufacturing time, etc, matter whether you're making cow-pies or paralis nets.

Ishara
04-30-2012, 02:25 PM
Knowing WH, I doubt sincerely that was his intent, although I can certainly see how it could be interpreted that way.

It is worth noting that we do value newcomers to TL, specifically because they do bring a fresh viewpoint to oft long-hashed out discussion. I will suggest to you though, that we often come across those who do not vail themselves of the resources available to them (including the archives and the interview database) before jumping into discussions with both feet. I'm not at all pointing this at anyone in particular, or even saying it's applicable here - just that it's always nice when those new to the fora avail themselves of the resources to hand while engaging in discussions.

Bringing us back to topic, does all of this mean that we essentially agree that Aviendha's experience during her second walk through the columns was not in fact a firm future, but rather a potential one that can be avided?

Davian93
04-30-2012, 02:57 PM
I agree that the future isn't firm by any means.

Weird Harold
04-30-2012, 03:12 PM
Bringing us back to topic, does all of this mean that we essentially agree that Aviendha's experience during her second walk through the columns was not in fact a firm future, but rather a potential one that can be avoided?

I remain unconvinced that Aviendha actually saw a future generated by the Columns ter'angreal. In that sense, the future she saw is easily avoided because it is highly improbable to begin with.

Swordcrowned
04-30-2012, 03:18 PM
I remain unconvinced that Aviendha actually saw a future generated by the Columns ter'angreal. In that sense, the future she saw is easily avoided because it is highly improbable to begin with.

So what was the future she saw generated by, as she walked thru the columns a second time?

Grig
04-30-2012, 05:52 PM
Not failure modes, design considerations. Things like cost/benefit considerations, manufacturing time, etc, matter whether you're making cow-pies or paralis nets.

Nice try. We were specifically discussing failure modes, and why mysteriously every Object of the Power that wasn't shattered or otherwise compromised physically still worked. The main drive for simplicity in engineering function is reducing the number of parts that can fail. Cost/benefit and manufacturing time are a smaller consideration when you consider most parts cost pennies in bulk; how much less so when you just wave your hands and use some OP and poof, ter'angreal?

Zombie Sammael
04-30-2012, 07:03 PM
Bringing us back to topic, does all of this mean that we essentially agree that Aviendha's experience during her second walk through the columns was not in fact a firm future, but rather a potential one that can be avided?

You can (and should) reach that conclusion on narrative structure alone, without having to resort to the mechanics of the OP. You do NOT put a vision of doom in the penultimate act without the future being changed in the final unless you are planning a sequel. RJ was not planning a sequel to WOT that would have dealt with this particular plot thread, and therefore, as I've said time and time again, it is Chekov's Prophecy.

Weird Harold
04-30-2012, 07:53 PM
So what was the future she saw generated by, as she walked thru the columns a second time?

As I said earlier in this thread and in various other threads, "Svengali Nakomi" first interrogated Aviendha under drugs, hypnosis, or light Compulsion abd then planted the equivalent of a post-hypnotic suggestion in her that caused her to hallucinate her second trip.

Weird Harold
04-30-2012, 08:19 PM
Nice try. We were specifically discussing failure modes, and why mysteriously every Object of the Power that wasn't shattered or otherwise compromised physically still worked.

You still haven't answered the question of how you know tons of *angreal haven't failed of old age or manufacturing defects.

Bottom line: that is a side-issue you brought up. My basic premise is and always has been about applying the KISS principle to *angreal analysis.

No *angreal functions in a way that is one iota more complicated than it must be. Especially ter'angreal made under the press of wartime conditions.

Cost/benefit and manufacturing time are a smaller consideration when you consider most parts cost pennies in bulk; how much less so when you just wave your hands and use some OP and poof, ter'angreal?

There is more to making ter'angreal than "poof ter'angreal." Otherwise, it wouldn't have taken so long to build the Chodean Kal's access keys, just as one example.

As a more specific example, it apparently took the Rhuidean Aes Sedai a decade or so to prepare the Columns for just the task of vetting Clan Chiefs and Wise Ones, perhaps longer. It certainly wasn't created, or reprogrammed or whatever, with "just a wave of the hand." Two aging Aes Sedai wouldn't be inclined to get fancy and add bells and whistles to the Columns; not when technicians with full access to all the AOL's prowess declined to make a paralis net as a single unit rather than a set of single purpose ter'angreal.

Boli
05-01-2012, 05:43 AM
Whenever I think of the columns and aviendia and their future/possible future I am always reminded of the prophecy: (emphasis mine)

He shall spill out the blood of those who call themselves Aiel as water on sand, and he shall break them as dried twigs, yet the remnant of a remnant shall he save, and they shall live.

Does that prophecy come true... or is that simply a viewing of if the prophecy does not?

Tomp
05-01-2012, 06:15 AM
Somewhat related thoughts.

Is the shaido the remnant of a remnant?
In that case, does it mean that all other Aiel will perish?

Ishara
05-01-2012, 09:31 AM
You can (and should) reach that conclusion on narrative structure alone, without having to resort to the mechanics of the OP. You do NOT put a vision of doom in the penultimate act without the future being changed in the final unless you are planning a sequel. RJ was not planning a sequel to WOT that would have dealt with this particular plot thread, and therefore, as I've said time and time again, it is Chekov's Prophecy.
Hey - I certainly did, but there are LOTS of people who don't agree. I was shocked at how many at JCon were convinced that this was an absolute future vision... when we discussed it as a group of TLers, we came to the conclusiion (I think, LOL) that the vision was more of a warning of what could happen if she did not re-evaluate her existing beliefs and prejudices.

Somewhat related thoughts.

Is the shaido the remnant of a remnant?
In that case, does it mean that all other Aiel will perish?

The short answer? No. Essentially, the Shaido did not serve the Car'a'Carn, and will therefore be forgotten. It is only those who serve Rand who will be saved:

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 34 - He Who Comes With the Dawn
She glanced at Mat, then said, "In this case, the whole truth, the truth known only to Wise Ones and clan chiefs before this, is that you are our doom. Our doom, and our salvation. Without you, no one of our people will live beyond the Last Battle. Perhaps not even until the Last Battle. That is prophecy, and truth. With you. . . . He shall spill out the blood of those who call themselves Aiel as water on sand, and he shall break them as dried twigs, yet the remnant of a remnant shall he save, and they shall live.' A hard prophecy, but this has never been a gentle land." (emphasis mine)
The Aiel that Rand will save, and destroy, are those that follow him now.

Zombie Sammael
05-01-2012, 11:13 AM
Hey - I certainly did, but there are LOTS of people who don't agree. I was shocked at how many at JCon were convinced that this was an absolute future vision... when we discussed it as a group of TLers, we came to the conclusiion (I think, LOL) that the vision was more of a warning of what could happen if she did not re-evaluate her existing beliefs and prejudices.

I didn't mean any criticism of you personally for not bringing up the plot mechanic, after all, this is an "in-world" discussion and it's common to forget these things. To be honest, though, I would have to say if anyone really does think it's an absolute vision, they are at the very least not thinking it through (and at worst, idiots).

SauceyBlueConfetti
05-01-2012, 12:37 PM
You do NOT put a vision of doom in the penultimate act without the future being changed in the final unless you are planning a sequel.

While I agree her vision is not necessarily the absolute end all, be all, I don't agree it is a "vision of doom"...I think that is a little overstated. It just isn't the ending (or new beginning?) that most of us are hoping for at this point.

And who says her trying to change things won't frack everything up even worse???

Ishara
05-01-2012, 12:50 PM
To be honest, though, I would have to say if anyone really does think it's an absolute vision, they are at the very least not thinking it through (and at worst, idiots).
LOL - My face at the Last Theory panel Ever (This Time we Mean It) likely said the same thing...

But I'll agree that my feelings are largely based on Saucy's assessment too.

While I agree her vision is not necessarily the absolute end all, be all, I don't agree it is a "vision of doom"...I think that is a little overstated. It just isn't the ending (or new beginning?) that most of us are hoping for at this point. And who says her trying to change things won't frack everything up even worse???

And there's the rub, eh? Including the Aiel in the Peace Agreement would be the major significant change - but who's to say that the remnent of a remnent that remains following that choice is any better? Wishful thinking - that's what. ;)

Plus, when reviewing the Aiel prophecies, there is strong intimation that they will eventually go back to the Way of the Leaf (or something similar).

Swordcrowned
05-01-2012, 01:35 PM
As I said earlier in this thread and in various other threads, "Svengali Nakomi" first interrogated Aviendha under drugs, hypnosis, or light Compulsion abd then planted the equivalent of a post-hypnotic suggestion in her that caused her to hallucinate her second trip.

Ok. Fair enough. Please defend. I noticed your defense of your own theory is based on what YOU believe to be the simplest explanation (from what I gathered rereading your posts) on the sole basis of how you personally interpreted the encounter with Nakomi in the book. I didn't see any other defenses, other than to refute other ideas.

Now, I actually agree with you, that the encounter with Nakomi was a little weird, but It did not seem drug addled to me. Just weird. Weird like some strange old lady appeared out of nowhere in the middle of the sahara desert weird.

Now, I am trying to think of a time in the book where compulsion was used and it wasn't obvious to us (as readers) what was happening. The only instance I can think of is the kid in Bandar Eban (I believe) and they did eventually figure it out.

The other side of this, if Nakomi did implant these images to be triggered later, then she was doing a good thing. If we split the characters between those who use compulsion and those who dont, they pretty much follow the line of either Dark Friend or Good Guy (or gal) to the letter. Its only okay to compel someone if he (or she) is your warder, or you happen to grovel anytime an overly large Fade appears. So now we have a good guy using compulsion to plant images inside Avi's head (which could be considered rape - even if its for her own good) to help her out.

I noticed you mentioned the KISS principle, and I am a fan of the "simplest solution being the most likely" ideas, but I just find it hard to believe your idea is more simple than an object of unknown power and unknown capabilities, creating the visions just as she walked thru them.

Zombie Sammael
05-01-2012, 03:06 PM
While I agree her vision is not necessarily the absolute end all, be all, I don't agree it is a "vision of doom"...I think that is a little overstated. It just isn't the ending (or new beginning?) that most of us are hoping for at this point.

And who says her trying to change things won't frack everything up even worse???

But that's just another angle of my point about plot development - you don't spoil the ending in the penultimate book, and you certainly don't give us an ending like that with someone trying to change it at the end of the penultimate book.

Weird Harold
05-01-2012, 06:19 PM
Ok. Fair enough. Please defend. I noticed your defense of your own theory is based on what YOU believe to be the simplest explanation (from what I gathered rereading your posts) on the sole basis of how you personally interpreted the encounter with Nakomi in the book. I didn't see any other defenses, other than to refute other ideas.

The defense is mostly, "Either you see it or you don't." because the conclusion is based in large part on literary convention rather than explicit clues in the text.

Now, I actually agree with you, that the encounter with Nakomi was a little weird, but It did not seem drug addled to me. Just weird. Weird like some strange old lady appeared out of nowhere in the middle of the sahara desert weird.

I read a LOT outside of the WOT and have done so for the better part of fifty years. Aviendha's encounter with Nakomi reads like any one of hundreds of descriptions from the POV of someone slipping in and out of fever dreams, any one of hundreds of interrogations from the POV of fevered or drug addled victims.

In fact, Aviendha's encounter with Nakomi is semi-presented as a fever dream.

Nakomi makes very little sense as anything other than an interrogator, IMHO. There may be some grand reveal showing Nakomi to be harmlessly weird, but until then nobody seems to know who Nakomi was or why she intercepted Aviendha; Mystery number one.

The other side of this, if Nakomi did implant these images to be triggered later, then she was doing a good thing. ... So now we have a good guy using compulsion to plant images inside Avi's head (which could be considered rape - even if its for her own good) to help her out.

I disagree that the "future" Aviendha "saw" is a "good thing."

First, there are several things about that future that would seem to contradict what we know of the WOT and/or common sense. The children's appearance, the fact they could Channel from birth, the Aeil being excluded from the Dragon's Peace, etc.

I could more readily accept that the "Future" shown was the future of the Shaido than any future for the Aeil who follow Rand or Aviendha's children.

Mystery number two.

I noticed you mentioned the KISS principle, and I am a fan of the "simplest solution being the most likely" ideas, but ...


1: My belief in Svengali Nakomi is an attempt to find one answer to two new mysteries. IMHO, considering plot elements in isolation generally leads to looney theories. (As Felix demonstrates, combining too many plot elements into one grand theory can be exceptionally looney as well.)

Linking these two mysterious events provides AN answer to why Nakomi intercepted Aviendha and provides some degree of relevance to that encounter. Otherwise, the encounter with Nakomi is just a random, space wasting, interlude on the way to Rhuidean.

If Nakomi is responsible for the "future" shown, that provides AN answer for the inconsistencies and improbabilities in what Aviendha saw.

I just find it hard to believe your idea is more simple than an object of unknown power and unknown capabilities, creating the visions just as she walked thru them.

2: Blaming the "future" on Nakomi, removes the overturning of several decades of "understanding" how the Columns function. :D

Up to Avienha's visit in ToM, there was a fairly firm consensus on what the Columns did and were capable of. I wouldn't characterize the columns as an "unknown power" with "unknown capabilities" because we "knew" what the ter'angreal did and had a good theory on how it did it.

Zombie Sammael has a very good point about plot elements. I would add that overturning the way the world works in the penultimate book is also a very bad idea. More than the previous consensus on the Column's function gets overturned in Aviendha's vision of the future if it is even a remote possibility.

However, misleading or tricking of a protagonist by a wicked villain in the penultimate book is not only permitted, it is a common practice.

Swordcrowned
05-01-2012, 06:53 PM
I read a LOT outside of the WOT and have done so for the better part of fifty years. Aviendha's encounter with Nakomi reads like any one of hundreds of descriptions from the POV of someone slipping in and out of fever dreams, any one of hundreds of interrogations from the POV of fevered or drug addled victims.

I also read a LOT outside of the WoT, and while I cant say its anywhere near 50 years, I have been doing so since I was a freshman in highschool, which is close to 20 years. I understand basing your interpretation of events in the encounter with Nakomi on other literary examples, however I look at the event that happen and interpret it as I do the rest of the series. Not as different authors would design it. And we have 13 books in which to use as a reference in the Nakomi incident. To me, it just doesnt seem like the RJ/Sanderson was trying to make it seem that way. (I am however, because of you, looking up and rereading that section to see if I can get your point of view on it)


I disagree that the "future" Aviendha "saw" is a "good thing."

First, there are several things about that future that would seem to contradict what we know of the WOT and/or common sense. The children's appearance, the fact they could Channel from birth, the Aeil being excluded from the Dragon's Peace, etc.

I was not attempting to state that the future she saw was a good thing, but the message that that future delivered was. I agree there were plenty of inconsistencies in the vision she saw, but the vision itself will give Avi reason to enforce certain ideals in which to keep a future where Aiel have no honor from happening.



Otherwise, the encounter with Nakomi is just a random, space wasting, interlude on the way to Rhuidean.

I think that there is plenty of basis in the WoT for this to be a random, space wasting interlude.


Up to Avienha's visit in ToM, there was a fairly firm consensus on what the Columns did and were capable of. I wouldn't characterize the columns as an "unknown power" with "unknown capabilities" because we "knew" what the ter'angreal did and had a good theory on how it did it.


In my opinion, we are so inundated thru out the series on how little the people of current Randland have such a small understanding of the One Power and object of the One Power as oppose to those from the Age of Legend. I find it easier to believe that the results of the columns providing the vision is just another instance of curent users of ter'angreal not know to the full extent what each device is capable of.

I'll leave the physics debates of how the columns could or could not have created those visions to you and the others. Thats too far in depth for me.

Weird Harold
05-01-2012, 11:44 PM
I was not attempting to state that the future she saw was a good thing, but the message that that future delivered was. I agree there were plenty of inconsistencies in the vision she saw, but the vision itself will give Avi reason to enforce certain ideals in which to keep a future where Aiel have no honor from happening.

What possible benefit can be derived from trying to prevent a future that isn't likely to happen in the first place? Isn't Aviendha just as likely to gum up the works as she is to accomplish anything positive?

Part of Avienda's character has always been her struggle to give up the warrior maiden mindset and learn the peacemaking ways of a Wise One. Her view of an "honorable future" for the Aeil is still skewed toward the warrior's prickly view of 'honor.'

I think that there is plenty of basis in the WoT for this to be a random, space wasting interlude.

Contrary to popular belief, there is very, very, little in the WOT that is simply "a random, space wasting interlude." There may not be a lot of plot or character development in some scenes, but there is always something if you look for it. As far as I can recall, Nakomi is the only scene that some plot or character development isn't apparent.

It is only when linked to Aviendha's "second trip" through the columns that the scene with Nokomi has any sort of relevance I can see.

I freely admit I don't see what Nakomi sought to accomplish or have any hard clues as to who she might be, but I can't see any good coming from Aviendha's vision.

In my opinion, we are so inundated thru out the series on how little the people of current Randland have such a small understanding of the One Power and object of the One Power as oppose to those from the Age of Legend.

It isn't the denizens of the WOT who "knew" how the columns work, but the HCFF that constantly argued and brought their pet feature to the discussion who "knew" how the ter'angreal worked. The same people who asked RJ leading questions to gather more information and got answers that help shape the discussions.

I'll leave the physics debates of how the columns could or could not have created those visions to you and the others. Thats too far in depth for me.

RJ said, several times, that he tried to treat OP use as a technology instead of "Magic." A "Magic" ter'angreal can do anything the author desires; a technological ter'angreal has to follow some sort of logic or rules.

Whether the Columns could show a "true" future or not is at the heart of the debate about what Aviendha saw. Based on past consensus about how a techological Glass Columns ter'angreal worked, my first -- and lasting -- impression was (and is) that the Columns do not have access to that kind of information.

Tomp
05-02-2012, 07:26 AM
Why did Rand only see his fathers line in Rhuidean?

We never glimpsed Tigraine's ancestry.

frenchie
05-02-2012, 07:43 AM
I think it follows gender for history. And remember, Rand's Aiel ancestry shares a common point up until Rhea is kidnapped.

Ishara
05-02-2012, 01:22 PM
Why did Rand only see his fathers line in Rhuidean?

We never glimpsed Tigraine's ancestry.

The rule as we've known it with regards to the columns (verified by a quote from RJ, quoted earlier in this thread) is that the columns are attuned to the Aiel. It follows the geneological history of the Aiel (as evidenced by Rand's trip), therefore his mother's ancestry would not come into play, she not being of Aiel ancestry - that we know of.

Thec columns are also attuned to gender, as frenchie mentioned. So a man (who would be clan chief) would not see the path of his female ancestors, but that of his male ancestors.

frenchie
05-02-2012, 01:38 PM
I think he was asking if Rand has Aiel blood from both parents, why did it only show the male ancestors, not the female.

Ishara
05-02-2012, 03:05 PM
But he doesn't have Aiel blood from both parents - what am I missing?

frenchie
05-02-2012, 03:19 PM
The Andoran Royal line is descended from Rhea, the Aiel who was captured during Rand's trip through the columbs.

frenchie
05-02-2012, 03:23 PM
And here is some supporting info:

Interview: Apr 23rd, 2010
JordanCon 2010 Q&A Report - Terez (Paraphrased)
Terez
When I was in line, I asked Brandon and Harriet (mostly Harriet, since she was signing my books) if the Andoran royal line is descended from Rand's Aiel line (see this post).
Harriet McDougal Rigney
I got a lovely smile from Harriet that told me she was pleased that someone had finally figured that out, and she said that she believes I am exactly right about that. She was a little sketchy on the details, though, and so was Brandon, so Brandon said it was essentially a MAFO. So I talked to Maria after that session, and she was taking a break so I didn't want to ask her about it just then, so I asked her if I could message her about it, and the other MAFO we got today, and she said yes, so I will hopefully be hearing more about that soon. Brandon asked me not to put that one in the interview database until I hear from Maria about it.
Footnote
I never did get an answer from Maria, so I'm putting this bit in anyway.

Ishara
05-02-2012, 04:31 PM
Sure, over thousands of years he's got Aiel Blood on both sides, but then, he's also got loads of other blood mixed in there too! I mean, he's also distantly related to Ishara, who was described as being as dark as an Athan Miere. We know that the Andoran Royal line draws their colouring from their Aiel ancestry - or at least it's a reasonable assumption - but it's a bit of a stretch to call his blood from Tigraine Aiel too, in my opinion.

All that being said, the coloumns work on the basis of gender, so it's a moot point, really.

Weird Harold
05-02-2012, 04:37 PM
Why did Rand only see his fathers line in Rhuidean?

We never glimpsed Tigraine's ancestry.

I think it follows gender for history. And remember, Rand's Aiel ancestry shares a common point up until Rhea is kidnapped.

It is possible we did see from the Viewpoint of one of Tigraine/Rhea's ancestors, but since the Columns only tracked Aeil History we wouldn't be able to tell the difference. The Columns wouldn't show any of Tigraine's Andoran or Cairheinen ancestors because they weren't relevant to the history of the Aeil.

Terez
05-02-2012, 10:11 PM
Sure, over thousands of years he's got Aiel Blood on both sides, but then, he's also got loads of other blood mixed in there too! I mean, he's also distantly related to Ishara, who was described as being as dark as an Athan Miere.
Only in relation to the statue. It's possible it's just the age of the statue.

yks 6nnetu hing
05-03-2012, 03:50 AM
I'm gonna have to ask you for a quote on this.

One that is more authoritative than the example which Nynaeve gave us during her third passage in her Acceptance test (TGH, Chapter 23, The Testing), when she did precisely that which you state is impossible: she did not step through the gateway, had it disappear, then made it again herself and stepped through it anyway.

That's a really good question. I don't think we know if Traveling between Mirror Worlds is possible at all. Still, she was inside a ter'angreal specifically designed (we think) for Enter -> Point A -> Point B -> Point C -> Exit. If she altered the weave even a little bit it might've had disastrous consequences. On the other hand, Nynaeve is famous for doing the impossible...

sorry guys, I'm a little behind, will be reading the thread now and prolly will have comments...

yks 6nnetu hing
05-03-2012, 04:44 AM
Yours and mine are not on a set course. The characters in Randland are. Unless they are Ta'veren.

it's the other way around, actually. A fisherman does not become a king unless he's ta'veren but if he's ta'veren then he cannot become anyhting other than a king. Non-ta'veren people have significant amount of choice in their lives, instead of becoming a fisherman he might become a farmer instead, or take up and become a soldier. He may marry or not marry. Whereas ta'veren have very little choice in the matter, the Pattern has decided what they need to be and that's what they'll be whether they want it or not.

This is actually echoed in Min's viewings, she says that for most people she doesn't have any viewings at all - because their futures aren't set by the Pattern. But for some: AS, Warders and ta'veren she almost always sees some. For some more than others. I think that the amount of things she sees about a person is directly related to how tightly that person's thread is woven into the Pattern. Rand has hundreds of visions floating about him while most channelers/warders have one, max 2 and most of them to do with a violent death (duh, for Warders). But this is perhaps fodder for another thread.

Weird Harold
05-03-2012, 05:44 AM
it's the other way around, actually. A fisherman does not become a king unless he's ta'veren but if he's ta'veren then he cannot become anything other than a king.

But a fisherwoman (or inn-keeper's daughter) can become the youngest Amyrlin in history without being ta'veren?

You're correct that this is probably meat for another thread, but with respect to the Columns and the history/future of the Aeil the WOT is predestinist for all inhabitants. Being Ta'veren or not has no bearing on one's place in the Pattern.

Most people -- in the WOT or in Real Life -- don't vary their routine from day to day. There wouldn't be anything significant for Min to see even if they were tightly bound to the Pattern and had no choice at all in their daily routine.

Min doesn't see anything for most people because their threads and place in the Pattern don't include any significant events within the range of her talent.

yks 6nnetu hing
05-03-2012, 07:39 AM
But a fisherwoman (or inn-keeper's daughter) can become the youngest Amyrlin in history without being ta'veren?

You're correct that this is probably meat for another thread, but with respect to the Columns and the history/future of the Aeil the WOT is predestinist for all inhabitants. Being Ta'veren or not has no bearing on one's place in the Pattern.

Most people -- in the WOT or in Real Life -- don't vary their routine from day to day. There wouldn't be anything significant for Min to see even if they were tightly bound to the Pattern and had no choice at all in their daily routine.

Min doesn't see anything for most people because their threads and place in the Pattern don't include any significant events within the range of her talent.

What do Siuan and Egwene have in common besides humble origins? and what did I say about Min's ability regarding Aes Sedai/Warders?

Personally, I think being able to channel or being close to the OP (such as being bonded to a channeler) makes one's choices in life more limited - they are either bound to the WT or they are on the run. Either which way, their everyday routine is not the same as defined by their noble or not so noble birth.

Ishara
05-03-2012, 11:44 AM
Only in relation to the statue. It's possible it's just the age of the statue.

TITLE: Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: 28 - Crimsonthorn
White columns twenty paces high marched down the sides of the Grand Hall. The throne room was empty, still. That would not last long. Clear afternoon light through the glassed casements in tall windows along the walls mingled with the colored light through the great windows set in the ceiling, where the White Lion of Andor alternated with scenes of Andoran victories and the faces of the land's earliest queens, beginning with Ishara herself, as dark as any of the Atha'an Miere, as full of authority as any Aes Sedai. No ruler of Andor could forget herself with the predecessors who had forged this nation staring down at her.
Do you mean the stained glass mirrors? Glass doesn't change colour with age (except for clear glass, which can yellow). What statue are you talking about?

Weird Harold
05-03-2012, 07:38 PM
What do Siuan and Egwene have in common besides humble origins?

Not being ta'veren. :D

yks 6nnetu hing
05-04-2012, 03:14 AM
Not being ta'veren. :D

I love it when you troll. (that's sarcasm, btw)

they both channel the OP you dummy. More, they're both sparkers. That's a pretty important prerequisite to becoming an Amyrlin. Being able to channel, I mean. Being a sparker simply makes their life choices that much more limited. They have no option to say "no thanks, I believe I don't want to learn to channel, I'll just live my life the way I'd planned"

Terez
05-04-2012, 04:08 AM
Do you mean the stained glass mirrors? Glass doesn't change colour with age (except for clear glass, which can yellow). What statue are you talking about?
Ahh, I thought they were statues for some reason. I always figured that the coloring must have been preserved purposefully not only with Rhea's descendants, but also the other women who were captured with her. It just seems odd that the royal family would have this coloring, but hardly anyone else in Andor. So if it wasn't already a royal family trait at the time of Ishara, then perhaps it was bred in later. But it does indicate selective breeding. I think there might be a lot of relative inbreeding in the royal family due to the way Andor judges strength of claim. Like, marrying third cousins and whatnot.

Weird Harold
05-04-2012, 04:34 AM
they both channel the OP you dummy.

Yes, they both can channel, but they both gained prominence in/through a traditon bound organization that consists of nothing but Channelers without either being ta'veren.

Either or both could have remained in training and without influence, as many sisters of all power levels have.

yks 6nnetu hing
05-04-2012, 05:29 AM
Either or both could have remained in training and without influence, as many sisters of all power levels have.
you've just proven my point.

non-ta'veren have considerable flexibility within their own lives. Ta'veren do not.

Channeling is genetic: you're either born with it or you're not. This is aside from the situation into which one is born, obviously.

Being a ta'veren has everything to do with what the Pattern wants, it's not genetic at all. If anything, it's soul-based.

WinespringBrother
05-04-2012, 09:29 AM
Sure, over thousands of years he's got Aiel Blood on both sides, but then, he's also got loads of other blood mixed in there too! I mean, he's also distantly related to Ishara, who was described as being as dark as an Athan Miere. We know that the Andoran Royal line draws their colouring from their Aiel ancestry - or at least it's a reasonable assumption - but it's a bit of a stretch to call his blood from Tigraine Aiel too, in my opinion.

All that being said, the coloumns work on the basis of gender, so it's a moot point, really.

Ahh, I thought they were statues for some reason. I always figured that the coloring must have been preserved purposefully not only with Rhea's descendants, but also the other women who were captured with her. It just seems odd that the royal family would have this coloring, but hardly anyone else in Andor. So if it wasn't already a royal family trait at the time of Ishara, then perhaps it was bred in later. But it does indicate selective breeding. I think there might be a lot of relative inbreeding in the royal family due to the way Andor judges strength of claim. Like, marrying third cousins and whatnot.

I think that clues regarding coloring can be gleamed from Rand (who is incidently Tam's red-headed step-child lol) and Galad. Both have the same mother, Tigraine (who had golden hair) but Rand has a presumably red-headed father (Janduin) while Galad has a presumably dark-haired father (Taringail). So it seems that the aiel coloring is recessive on Tigraine's side since apparently both Rand and Galad take after their fathers. However, both Elayne and Gawyn take after Morgase.

Weird Harold
05-04-2012, 09:56 AM
Either or both could have remained in training and without influence, as many sisters of all power levels have.

you've just proven my point.

non-ta'veren have considerable flexibility within their own lives. Ta'veren do not.

No I haven't. They could have remained insignificant, but the Pattern needed them to be Amyrlin in their turn, so they each became Amyrlin against all precedent against them.

RJ says they aren't ta'veren, and Siuan Sanche at least can't lay the blame for her meteoric rise on the Three Amigos -- who are the only active ta'veren according to RJ and they did not become ta'veren until the beginning of tEotW.


Your initial assertion --

it's the other way around, actually. A fisherman does not become a king unless he's ta'veren but if he's ta'veren then he cannot become anything other than a king.

-- describes Siuan Sanche except for gender and the fact she isn't ta'veren. Her ability to Channel had little to do with her rise to Amyrlin other than being a prerequisite for the job.

The Tower Split was Foretold 3,000 years ago as part of the KC. The Wheel/Pattern can't power a Foretelling that far into the future without controlling the lives of everyone who is reborn in the intervening years. There is free will in the WOT, but it is mostly on the level of which shirt to wear with which pants.

yks 6nnetu hing
05-04-2012, 10:32 AM
No I haven't. They could have remained insignificant, but the Pattern needed them to be Amyrlin in their turn, so they each became Amyrlin against all precedent against them.

RJ says they aren't ta'veren, and Siuan Sanche at least can't lay the blame for her meteoric rise on the Three Amigos -- who are the only active ta'veren according to RJ and they did not become ta'veren until the beginning of tEotW.


Your initial assertion --


-- describes Siuan Sanche except for gender and the fact she isn't ta'veren. Her ability to Channel had little to do with her rise to Amyrlin other than being a prerequisite for the job.

The Tower Split was Foretold 3,000 years ago as part of the KC. The Wheel/Pattern can't power a Foretelling that far into the future without controlling the lives of everyone who is reborn in the intervening years. There is free will in the WOT, but it is mostly on the level of which shirt to wear with which pants.

and where are your quotes from the books to back that up?

because here:

TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 42 - Remembrance of Dreams

"So they are," Moiraine said. "Three of them, when I expected one. A great many things have happened that I did not expect. This news concerning the Eye of the World changes much." She paused, frowning. "For a time the Pattern does seem to be swirling around all three of you, just as Loial says, and the swirl will grow greater before it becomes less. Sometimes being ta'veren means the Pattern is forced to bend to you, and sometimes it means the Pattern forces you to the needed path. The Web can still be woven many ways, and some of those designs would be disastrous. For you, for the world.


The Pattern is not predetermined.


TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 3 - Friends and Enemies

"For a time, the Wheel will bend the Pattern around you three, whatever you do. And whatever you do is more likely to be chosen by the Wheel than by you. Ta'veren pull history along behind them and shape the Pattern just by being, but the Wheel weaves Ta'veren on a tighter line than other men. Wherever you go and whatever you do, until the Wheel chooses otherwise you will-"



TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 15 - Kinslayer

"Oh, I know the name you use now, Lews Therin. I know every name you have used through Age after Age, long before you were even the Kinslayer." Ba'alzamon's voice began to rise in intensity; sometimes the fires of his eyes flared so high that Rand could see them through the openings in the silk mask, see them like endless seas of flame. "I know you, know your blood and your line back to the first spark of life that ever was, back to the First Moment. You can never hide from me. Never! We are tied together as surely as two sides of the same coin. Ordinary men may hide in the sweep of the Pattern, but ta'veren stand out like beacon fires on a hill, and you, you stand out as if ten thousand shining arrows stood in the sky to point you out! You are mine, and ever in reach of my hand!"



TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 2 - Saidin

"Ta'veren," Loial began. Perrin waved at him to stop, but the Ogier could seldom be slowed, much less stopped, when one of his enthusiasms had him in its grip. He was accounted extremely hasty, by the Ogier way of looking at things. Loial pushed his book into a coat pocket and went on, gesturing with his pipe. "All of us, all of our lives, affect the lives of others, Min. As the Wheel of Time weaves us into the Pattern, the life-thread of each of us pulls and tugs at the life-threads around us. Ta'veren are the same, only much, much more so. They tug at the entire Pattern - for a time, at least - forcing it to shape around them. The closer you are to them, the more you are affected personally. It's said that if you were in the same room with Artur Hawkwing, you could feel the Pattern rearranging itself. I don't know how true that is, but I've read that it was. But it doesn't only work one way. Ta'veren themselves are woven to a tighter line than the rest of us, with fewer choices. "


It's starting to seem likely to me that Egwene's ascent to Amyrlin is directly related to how close she was to Rand. For his purposes for the Pattern, he needed a someone he would be able to trust as Amyrlin (i.e. not the typical scheming faceless Aes Sedai) and Egwene got pulled along in that because she was so close to Rand. She still has some choices of her own though, as are evidenced by her Dreams: whether to bond Gawyn or not for example. While Rand has no choice at all in whether to love 3 women or just pick one, apparently.



those quotes are only from the first 3 books, there's loads more. If you want to dive into a detailed study of ta'veren, look into Mat's Bag of Unending Complaints, or the constant whining of Rand or Perrin and the responses given by Loial, Moiraine and Verin.

Flinn Sedai
05-05-2012, 12:24 PM
Mat's Bag of Unending Complaints

Best. Description. Ever.

Daemin
06-08-2012, 12:12 PM
If I could jump back several pages in the discussion to the columns for the moment...

I don't think anyone else could have entered the columns a second time before Aviendha did her thing.

Notice that Aviendha doesn't walk though them a second time until after she has another vision. She goes through once, and then walks away to sit at the base of Avendesora and think. Then she gets up and examines the columns, before deciding to leave.

That gave her a chill. Was she touching the pillar, or was it touching her?

She tried to read ter'angreal as she had done before, but this one was vast. Incomprehensible, like the One Power itself. She inhaled sharply, disoriented by the weight of what she felt. It was as if she had suddenly fallen into a deep, dark pit.

She snapped her eyes open, pulling her hand away, palm quivering. This was beyond her. She was an insect, trying to grasp the size and mass of a mountain. She took a breath to steady herself, then shook her head. There was nothing more to be done here.

She turned from the glass pillars and took a step.(emp. added)

She was Malidra...

She turned to leave, and then had another vision. After the vision ends, she's still in the square:

"Bloody Aiel," Flern said as her sight faded.

Aviendha's foot hit the flagstone in Rhuidean's square, and she blinked in shock. The sun had changed in the sky above. Hours had passed.

She debates, and then decides to re-enter the columns:

She took a hesitant step away from the glass columns, and nothing happened. No further visions. Disturbed, she began to walk from the plaza.

Then she slowed.

Hesitantly she turned back. The columns stood in the dimming light, quiet and alone, seeming to buzz with an unseen energy.

Was there more?

...

But she had come seeking knowledge. She would not leave without it. She turned and—taking a deep breath—walked up to the pillars.

Then took a step.


I think this suggests that the columns would not have worked a second time for anyone else. The only other person we see go through the columns is Rand, and he doesn't get an extra vision after exiting them. So why did Aviendha? Too, it's this extra vision that entices her to take a second trip through the columns. Taken all together, I think it strongly implies that it was her meddling that changed something about the columns.


To sum up:

1. Aviendha had an extra vision outside of the columns.
2. The only other person we see go through the columns didn't haven an extra vision after he exited the columns.
3. She moved around the plaza without getting the extra vision. It only occurred after she examined the columns with her talent.
4. The second sequence of visions didn't continue until she re-entered the columns.

Terez
06-08-2012, 12:24 PM
I think most people agree she had the second set of visions because she touched the columns.

Daemin
06-08-2012, 12:30 PM
I think most people agree she had the second set of visions because she touched the columns.

That's not the impression i got from the first few pages of this thread.