PDA

View Full Version : Heroe's Names


Davian93
04-26-2012, 12:04 PM
This might be a dumb question but I simply cannot recall: Have we ever been given an explanation as to how people in Randland know who the Heroes of the Horn are and how they know them by names?

I mean, we know for a fact that Birgitte is not named Birgitte in each of her rebirths but everyone seemingly knows that "Birgitte is a Hero of the Horn, Gaidal Cain is a Hero of the Horn, Artur Hawkwing is a Hero, etc etc"

If they were just amazing people that were born at random intervals under different names, why would anyone even know they wre Heros and expect them to return via the Horn?...A Horn that was never even used during either the 3rd Age or AoL until Mat blew it at Falme.

I mean, I could see where we would have certain archetypes associated with stories, "A great female bowman", etc etc but how did they even know the following at Falme:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 47 - The Grave Is No Bar to My Call
Rogosh Eagle-eye, a fatherly looking man with white hair and eyes so sharp as to make his name merely a hint. Gaidal Cain, a swarthy man with the hilts of his two swords sticking above his broad shoulders. Golden-haired Birgitte, with her gleaming silver bow and quiver bristling with silver arrows. More. He knew their faces, knew their names. But he heard a hundred names when he looked at each face, some so different he did not recognize them as names at all, though he knew they were. Michael instead of Mikel. Patrick instead of Paedrig. Oscar instead of Otarin.


How do gleeman even know who the Heroes are? Is it just a lucky guess based on their exploits and the similiaries in their accomplishments that allows them to figure out that every female heroine good with a bow is likely the Birgitte soul?

Boli
04-26-2012, 12:19 PM
This was from Rand's POV; given how Hawkwing knows him it stands to reason he is bound to the horn as well. So seeing them all the bounderies between the reality of TAR and the horn and his normal life would be blurred somewhat.

It would be interesting to see when it is blown again if other people experiance it or if it is just a "hero of the horn" kind of thing.

Davian93
04-26-2012, 12:21 PM
This was from Rand's POV; given how Hawkwing knows him it stands to reason he is bound to the horn as well. So seeing them all the bounderies between the reality of TAR and the horn and his normal life would be blurred somewhat.

It would be interesting to see when it is blown again if other people experiance it or if it is just a "hero of the horn" kind of thing.

Yeah, I know that. Rand, as a Hero himself, would obviously have a better connection to the others as they are all bound to the Horn. I was thinking of "How are there even gleeman stories about the Heroes if they have different names in each rebirth? How would you know that that amazing person was a Hero but Joe Random Hero was just some ordinary amazing guy?"

WinespringBrother
04-26-2012, 12:42 PM
Their names aren't set in stone, and probably change through the ages, as do the memories of their legends:

Great Hunt CH: 47 - The Grave Is No Bar to My Call
Rogosh Eagle-eye, a fatherly looking man with white hair and eyes so sharp as to make his name merely a hint. Gaidal Cain, a swarthy man with the hilts of his two swords sticking above his broad shoulders. Golden-haired Birgitte, with her gleaming silver bow and quiver bristling with silver arrows. More. He knew their faces, knew their names. But he heard a hundred names when he looked at each face, some so different he did not recognize them as names at all, though he knew they were. Michael instead of Mikel. Patrick instead of Paedrig. Oscar instead of Otarin.

As for how each hero is recognized and credited with whatever heroic feats accomplished by all their incarnations, who knows how accurate these attributions of greatness really are? Though it makes sense that with the various mechanisms available to the Wheel, such as heroes who can be reborn with full memories such as Birgitte, Finns who can hold and dispense historical knowledge, ter'angreal that can store information, races with longevity and good record keeping such as the Ogier, and wolves who have the ability to remember and pass along knowledge through the ages, that some of the knowledge about reborn Heroes can be preserved (even accurately to an extent).

Weird Harold
04-26-2012, 08:28 PM
How do gleeman even know who the Heroes are? Is it just a lucky guess based on their exploits and the similiaries in their accomplishments that allows them to figure out that every female heroine good with a bow is likely the Birgitte soul?

I thought we had reached a consensus long ago that the Heroes are known by the name they bore in their last incarnation -- or at least their best known incarnation.

Birgitte herself laments that she didn't do half the stuff that Gleemen credit her with.

My personal understanding is that Gleemen maintain the Heroes presence in T'A'R, and their appearance, by inspiring a "group dream" in the general populace. The actual Heroes, however, are Archetypal (heroic) Souls that inhabit the "puppets" generated by Gleemen's tales -- they bear no particular relationship to the characters in gleemen's tales except as the archetype the tale is spun around.

In most cases, the Gleemen build on the actual heroic actions of the most recent incarnation, but the image and history are entirely fictional. Thus Birgitte bears little or no resemblance to her actual appearance in her last incarnation, but the tales of Birgitte Silverbow provide an "anchor" in the Common Dream for the Female Archer Archetype to inhabit while waiting to be spun back out.

Davian93
04-26-2012, 08:50 PM
I thought we had reached a consensus long ago that the Heroes are known by the name they bore in their last incarnation -- or at least their best known incarnation.

Oh yeah, I completely understand that part. Its more of the "how do we even know that random female heroine is actually a Birgitte incarnation and not just some random female heroine.

In most cases, the Gleemen build on the actual heroic actions of the most recent incarnation, but the image and history are entirely fictional. Thus Birgitte bears little or no resemblance to her actual appearance in her last incarnation, but the tales of Birgitte Silverbow provide an "anchor" in the Common Dream for the Female Archer Archetype to inhabit while waiting to be spun back out.

That makes a bit more sense than anything else. It just seems odd is all. Other than meeting another Hero in TAR (forbidden by the precepts), it would be impossible to get a listing of all the Heroes.

Weird Harold
04-26-2012, 11:33 PM
Oh yeah, I completely understand that part. Its more of the "how do we even know that random female heroine is actually a Birgitte incarnation and not just some random female heroine.

We don't. If enough Gleemen tell enough tales, that randome female heroine's name will get attached to the Birgitte Soul, whether Birgitte deserves the credit or not.

The Pattern probably doesn't allow random female archers to gain enough notoriety to "take over" Birgitte's place in tHotH, while it simultaneously sees to it that the real Birgitte Soul gets as notorious as possible to overshadow any pretenders who might be around.

That makes a bit more sense than anything else. It just seems odd is all. Other than meeting another Hero in TAR (forbidden by the precepts), it would be impossible to get a listing of all the Heroes.

True. Even Rand didn't recognize some of the heroes in the background. Heroes fade away as their legends fade from popularity -- they still answer the Horn, but as faceless, formless, spear carriers in the back of the company.

Only the HotH know the full roster, and even then there's likely to be a few "Whathisface" and "YouKnowWho" attributions for those in the back.

Ishara
04-27-2012, 04:28 PM
Plus, while a lot of the tales attributed to Birgitte aren't hers, some of the ones NOT attributed to her are - like the one of Elmiara and the Shadoweyes, which is really about her trip to the Tower with Gaidal Cain.

I suppose it works both ways...

Frenzy
04-27-2012, 09:18 PM
Easy answer is it's a Gleemen's job to know the good stories. Good stories need epic heroes, legendary journeys, thrilling battles, tragic lovestories, etc. You know, the stuff that Heroes do.

Rand ruminating about their "other, older" names to either show that Rand's an odd duck and can see depth in the Pattern, he's tied deeply to the Pattern being the Dragon Reborn and all, or it's a literary device RJ used to demonstrate his cyclical reincarnation cosmology.

Although... Hero of the Horn is kind of a misnomer. The Horn calls the Heroes, but the Heroes are bound to the Wheel and await rebirth in Tel'aran'rhiod. The Horn is just a tool used to call the heroes to fight in the last battle. That too is a Gleeman's tale.

Jonai
05-06-2012, 07:07 AM
I like the idea that "Birgitte" or Gaidal Cain" or what not were the original incarnations that were first bound to the Wheel. Each additional spinning is a variation on the original theme. Similar to the Age Lace, where different turnings of the Wheel look quite similar from a distance but have more variation the closer you examine them. So The Wheel spins out variations and occassionally spins out a "true" or at least a variation that is similar to the original. Often enough that people recognize it and lump in the variations that might, say have only the weapon and gender in common, i.e. Birgitte's Maerion, in with the original. Doesn't explain why ole hawkwinger called Rand Lews Therin, but perhaps names are interchangeable when you know the soul.

Weird Harold
05-06-2012, 09:33 AM
Doesn't explain why ole hawkwinger called Rand Lews Therin, but perhaps names are interchangeable when you know the soul.

At the time of Falme, Rand Al'Thor wasn't a name known to many. Hawkwing addressed him by the name of his last incarnation.

Davian93
05-06-2012, 09:04 PM
Totally random thought on the whole Hawkwing/LTT thing. We know both just hang out in TAR while they're awaiting rebirth. So, how was LTT during that last 3500 years in TAR? Was he whining/half insane about Ilyena or was he completely above board/normal because that was just one of many rebirths?

I mean, what is their baseline?

Crispin's Crispian
05-06-2012, 09:24 PM
Totally random thought on the whole Hawkwing/LTT thing. We know both just hang out in TAR while they're awaiting rebirth. So, how was LTT during that last 3500 years in TAR? Was he whining/half insane about Ilyena or was he completely above board/normal because that was just one of many rebirths?

I mean, what is their baseline?

Well, if you believe the Construct Theory, LTT's whiny, insane self was only Rand's interpretation of the man's personality. We really might not have any idea what he was actually like.

My hunch is that tney have a specific personality that sustains through eternity. Birgitte is always the sarcastic, tom-boy type who does right thing but likes to party. Gaidal Cain is always strict and gruff and LTT always bends over backwards for the ladies. It is the personality of the soul when it was initially bound.

Davian93
05-06-2012, 09:26 PM
Well, if you believe the Construct Theory, LTT's whiny, insane self was only Rand's interpretation of the man's personality. We really might not have any idea what he was actually like.

My hunch is that tney have a specific personality that sustains through eternity. Birgitte is always the sarcastic, tom-boy type who does right thing but likes to party. Gaidal Cain is always strict and gruff and LTT always bends over backwards for the ladies. It is the personality of the soul when it was initially bound.

I wasnt thinking of the voice in Rand's head but rather his last few moments of life after Ishy "healed" him...

Lost One
12-15-2012, 09:11 PM
I really like the idea of how they are kept alive in TAR by a group dream.

I think that it is usually suspected after the fact that "Bob Really Awesomeguy" was a HotH. Such as Tom talking about stories might have been her under a different name.. but the Bow is always mentioned. Basically, I think that it is after the fact supposition. Other than Birgitte and AH, very little, or next to nothing is known about the HotH by the readers. I mean we know Gaidel, is gruff, ugly, and uses two swords. While AH sounds like a reasonably good man from his conversation with Rand in the TGH, and stories tell how the common man found justice under his rule.. personally, I thought he was a a-hole for his war against the AS. I mean he was influenced by Ishmael (kill theh AS, send your Armies over the ocean, yada yada). But we know nothing really of Mikel of the Pureheart, Ameresu with the Sword of the Sun, Otarin or the other 95 or so.

"Is this all of you?" There were little more than a hundred, Rand saw, and realised that somehow he had known that there would be" TGH, chapt 47.

So barring any HotH's who might be alive right now, there are only about 100. though Olver/GC is too small to fight at TG, he will be swinging two swords in a decade or so. While no one from Randland, may know his soul now, bards, gleeman, and storytellers of the future will most likely peg him as Gaidel Cain.

GonzoTheGreat
12-16-2012, 05:45 AM
So barring any HotH's who might be alive right now, there are only about 100. though Olver/GC is too small to fight at TG, he will be swinging two swords in a decade or so. While no one from Randland, may know his soul now, bards, gleeman, and storytellers of the future will most likely peg him as Gaidel Cain.
That may be because he isn't. RJ has confirmed that Olver is the wrong age to even possibly be Gaidal Cain.

May not stop him from becoming a two sword expert, of course, but if so, he stil would not be Gaidal.

Lost One
12-16-2012, 03:58 PM
LOL Gonzo.. Stop blowing holes in my theories.

I am lazy and not going to look up references, because I think we have read the books over and over so many times.

Clues:

1: We keep getting told that time is different between the waking world and TAR
2: We keep getting hammered about how ugly Olver is.
3:Olver is getting weapons training (as well as womanizing skills) from the pretty much the top cadre in the Band
4:Birgette loves ugly men
5:Soon after meeting Birgitte, Min has a veiwing of her tied to a male figure, sometimes older, sometimes younger

If all of these are random circumstances.. it is one of the few times that so many clues added up to nothing.

I guess we have to wait and see if Gaidel shows up when Mat toots on the Horn.

If he is not.. I wonder what Birgitte will do when see sees him after Mat blows the Horn

GonzoTheGreat
12-17-2012, 04:49 AM
Gaidal won't show up, as he has been reborn now. From the interview database:
Interview: Jan 16th, 2003
COT Signing Report - Tim Kington (Paraphrased)
Question
Is Olver Gaidal Cain?
Robert Jordan
No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.
QUESTION
He's too old.
ROBERT JORDAN
Yes. Time in Tel'aran'rhiod and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in Tel'aran'rhiod, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.
---------
Justin Lee (18 January 2011)
Any thoughts on my "Mat is Gaidal Cain" theory? His time with the snakes/foxes makes me wonder.
Brandon Sanderson (18 January 2011)
Do you REALLY want me to weigh in on this?
JUSTIN LEE
Absolutely! Though I'm likely to get a RAFO ;)
BRANDON SANDERSON
Well, as I remember, RJ said that Olver was too old to be Gaidal Cain. If Olver's to old, then Mat...
JUSTIN LEE
He's certainly going to be late to the Big Show if he was naturally born after Olver.
BRANDON SANDERSON
Gaidal has been reborn, and I do know who he is, and he is younger than Olver. (Sorry.)
BRIAN CAYEN
Not sure if this was asked but have we seen Gaidal Cain reincarnated "on screen"?
BRANDON SANDERSON
RAFO on Cain, I'm afraid.

Zombie Sammael
12-17-2012, 07:00 AM
Gaidal won't show up, as he has been reborn now. From the interview database:

That doesn't mean he won't show up. In conversation with Lupus last night I suggested Birgitte may find him as a baby during TG and raise him as an adopted child. They always love each other, but maybe not always in the same way.

yks 6nnetu hing
12-17-2012, 07:05 AM
Easy answer is it's a Gleemen's job to know the good stories. Good stories need epic heroes, legendary journeys, thrilling battles, tragic lovestories, etc. You know, the stuff that Heroes do.

Rand ruminating about their "other, older" names to either show that Rand's an odd duck and can see depth in the Pattern, he's tied deeply to the Pattern being the Dragon Reborn and all, or it's a literary device RJ used to demonstrate his cyclical reincarnation cosmology.

Although... Hero of the Horn is kind of a misnomer. The Horn calls the Heroes, but the Heroes are bound to the Wheel and await rebirth in Tel'aran'rhiod. The Horn is just a tool used to call the heroes to fight in the last battle. That too is a Gleeman's tale.

to take an analogy from our world, it's like the story of Troy: the way it was originally written by Homer was not meant as a myth, it was meant as an account of a real war. He saw himself as a kind of a journalist or historian, recording the story of a great war. However, he didn't have the facts, what he had were third-hand accounts by people who had not been there themselves, heavily garbled with superstition. He did get the basics right, that much is proven by archaeology - there was a large war. but Helen of Troy? or the wooden horse? Odysseus and Agamemnon and Paris?

Even though our world is now much more fact-driven, we still get "myths" (or conspiracy theories) about people such as JFK, Che Guevara, Gandhi, Mother Theresa, Amelia Earhart etc.

Robert Jordan was incredible at recognizing that very human need of heroization or vilification regardless of what the people were actually like and translating it into a Fantasy epic. He even references the real people back in Mat's flashbacks - you know, how Hawkwing really was as a person, rather than the image the Randlanders have of him nor the image the Seanchan have of him (wich, if you compare the two, seems like totally different people).

Lost One
12-17-2012, 10:03 AM
From the above quoted interview, he cannot show up when Mat blows the Horn, and even if he could, he is almost a non-entity. (Has Melaine had her babies yet?) Regardless, even if he has been reborn, he would be between one and two years old. I believe Birgitte thought he was reborn and says something alluding to that while talking to Nanaeve in TAR; something along the lines of:

Nanaeve: Is he (Gaidel) about?
Birgitte: No, I have not seen him in sometime. That is how I know my time is getting close, when I cannot find him.

So if he has been reborn.. he is an infant, can play no part directly in the LB.

GonzoTheGreat
12-17-2012, 10:17 AM
So if he has been reborn.. he is an infant, can play no part directly in the LB.
The first part is true. The second part probably also, but we won't be sure until we've read AMoL. Maybe the final blow will be delivered by some baby accidentally throwing his toy sword into Shaidar Haran's eye.