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Landro
05-01-2012, 11:20 AM
All WO are supposed to enter the ter'angreal in Ruidean that shows them possible futures. This would give them a warning of things to avoid doing, like Avi remembering not to go to Rand during the cleansing because it would have a bad outcome.

If WO have these premonitions, why then did all the Shaido WO follow Sevanna's mad plan? Surely at least a few of them would have remembered that this would end badly.

SauceyBlueConfetti
05-01-2012, 11:50 AM
TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 23 - Beyond the Stone
"In Rhuidean," Amys said, "you will find three rings, arranged so." She drew three lines in the air, joining together in the middle. "Step through any one. You will see your future laid before you, again and again, in variation. They will not guide you wholly, as is best, for they will fade together as do stories heard long ago, yet you will remember enough to know some things that must be, for you, despised as they may be, and some that must not, cherished hopes that they are. This is the beginning of being called wise. Some women never return from the rings; perhaps they could not face the future. Some who survive the rings do not survive their second trip to Rhuidean, to the heart. You are not giving up a hard and dangerous life for a softer, but for a harder and more dangerous."
The visions are not retained, just ideas, so specifically seeing Sevanna's path, and retaining the memory of it, was not likely. Keep in mind also that nothing would force you to choose a path based on what you saw...knowing something is dangerous is rarely a deterrent in life. Overcoming a feeling of wrongness to get a "cherished hope" of power, love, wealth is a pretty hard task, even for Wise Ones.

Landro
05-01-2012, 12:29 PM
There are probably over 1000 Shaido WO and apprentices. What are the odds that none of them remember the danger?

SauceyBlueConfetti
05-01-2012, 01:18 PM
Again, let me reiterate, they don't REMEMBER anything. And nothing, nothing tells us what each person sees and "feels" in their "viewings". Because Sevanna ultimately fails, it possibly was not important enough for Wise Ones to retain a HEY DON'T DO THAT feeling about her. And, the futures seen are hundred/thousand-fold. In each of their futures Sevanna might not have played ANY part in the majority of the viewings.

And not all the Shaido Wise Ones follow Sevanna:

TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message
Fortunately, enough of the Shaido Wise Ones had listened to Sevanna, not Desaine. It was unfortunate that Desaine had too many listeners to be safely done away with.

Unfortunately for Desaine, she was done away with eventually.

Ivhon
05-01-2012, 03:02 PM
Moiraine remembers Lanfear, Thom and that if she were to sleep with Rand disaster would ensue...

I'm kinda with Landro on this. The epic disaster that follows Sevanna should be enough to be one of those things that sticks out or is remembered in the moment.

Davian93
05-01-2012, 03:05 PM
Moiraine remembers Lanfear, Thom and that if she were to sleep with Rand disaster would ensue...

I'm kinda with Landro on this. The epic disaster that follows Sevanna should be enough to be one of those things that sticks out or is remembered in the moment.


Unless of course they really are the remnant of a remnant to survive...then everything they've done makes total sense.

Rand al'Fain
05-01-2012, 03:23 PM
Unless of course they really are the remnant of a remnant to survive...then everything they've done makes total sense.

For some reason, that theory makes me feel a bit dirty. Considering out well over 100,000 Shaido, only a few thousand make the trek back to the Waste. It's a remnant of the Shaido, but it seemed like the prophecy spoke of the Aiel overall. And it looks like with the Aiel throwing down their weapons and becoming eternal gai'shain, along with the attrition that comes with a long and bloody war with massive numbers, I just don't think the Shaido are the remnant.

SauceyBlueConfetti
05-01-2012, 03:48 PM
Moiraine remembers Lanfear, Thom and that if she were to sleep with Rand disaster would ensue...

I'm kinda with Landro on this. The epic disaster that follows Sevanna should be enough to be one of those things that sticks out or is remembered in the moment.

I think the sleeping with Rand thing came from her questions to the 'finn.

Her memories of Rhuidean, specifically Lanfear, (if I recall correctly) come from her dreams after visiting there.

Master Ablar
05-01-2012, 04:00 PM
I think the sleeping with Rand thing came from her questions to the 'finn.


No, she says it came from the rings in chapter 7 of tFoH.

greatwolf
05-01-2012, 04:31 PM
As someone said, there were some against it. But remember that each person sees many futures and that the memories fade. Still though, I think it is possible some of the higher ranking shaido WOs may be DFs.

Think of it. Anyone who has any idea that the world might end in her life time might be pushed to making some drastic choices. Afterall if the DO wins, what is seen in the rings is no longer valid is it?

SauceyBlueConfetti
05-01-2012, 07:03 PM
No, she says it came from the rings in chapter 7 of tFoH.

You are correct! The passage reinforces the idea there are no memories from the rings, only a sense:


7 TITLE: Fires of Heaven
* CHAPTER: 7 - A Departure
* "He has been drawing further and further away from me, Lan, and I must be close to him. He needs whatever guidance I can give, and I will do everything short of sharing his bed to see that he gets it." The rings had told her that that would be disaster. Not that she had ever considered it-the very idea still shocked her!-but in the rings it was something she would or could have considered in the future. It was a measure of her growing desperation, no doubt, and in the rings she had seen that it would bring ruination on everything. She wished she could remember how-there were keys to Rand al'Thor in anything she could learn about him-but only the simple fact of calamity remained in her mind.

greebo
05-01-2012, 10:37 PM
I think that the important thing to remember is that, though the memories fade, some knowledge remains of what HAS to happen- whether it's desirable for the individual or not.
Given that the whole Shaido diversion seemed to be necessary to get Perrin, and maybe even some of the AS where they needed to be (not to mention pulling together the threads of Ghealdan, Maseema, Morgaise, Andor and some of the Seanchan), I would say that these things HAD to happen.
The WO's might not have realized why, but they may very well have known that these distasteful decisions had to be made.

Boli
05-02-2012, 03:35 AM
Imagine if you entered the rings and you knew it showed possible futures; if these rings could be focused by the individual rather than just showing a spurge of images you could focus them on one path in your life and see the many choices you could make and from that knowledge choose the correct path.

If someone already had a focued view of her life (such as Moiraine as a blue ajah) chances are all her possible futures will also be as focused.


Now compare that to... what would be a scared girl not yet begun her wise one training; someone who's life suddently changed (if they just figured out she could channel) and has no idea what her goal is or what the future will bring woudl jus be assaulted with dozens of possibilities which have no real set pattern and will leave her only with a feeling of a few important events.


I believe that Moiraine would be using the Ter'Angreal as its intended purpose rather than a testing tool.

Lupusdeusest
05-02-2012, 05:55 AM
Alternatively (barring the usual PLE argument here) maybe the schism was REQUIRED to happen for the continued survival of the Pattern. What would have happened without Sevanna? Would Asmo have been captured? Would the Band have been formed?

Ishara
05-02-2012, 12:15 PM
Unless of course they really are the remnant of a remnant to survive...then everything they've done makes total sense.

But we know from the Prophecies that's not the case, so no. ;)

Sevanna may be the focal point of the Shaido schism for the readers, but wasn't necessarily for the Aiel, especially not at the beginning. By the time Sevanna became the undisputed leader, the road had already been well travelled - too far maybe, for a tactical retreat (as it were) by the Wise Ones. They had made their bed one action and decision at a time, and by the time it was clear that they would not succeed and that Sevanna was batshit crazy, it was too late to go back...

Davian93
05-02-2012, 12:25 PM
But we know from the Prophecies that's not the case, so no. ;)

Sevanna may be the focal point of the Shaido schism for the readers, but wasn't necessarily for the Aiel, especially not at the beginning. By the time Sevanna became the undisputed leader, the road had already been well travelled - too far maybe, for a tactical retreat (as it were) by the Wise Ones. They had made their bed one action and decision at a time, and by the time it was clear that they would not succeed and that Sevanna was batshit crazy, it was too late to go back...

That's one possible interpretation of that theory. Maybe he saves them by rejecting them...Maybe the indefinite pronoun "he" refers to someone else. Maybe the Shaido Sept Chief that is on his way to Rhuidean will see the Light and will be vital to the Last Battle by bringing the Shaido to Rand's side...

Join The Faction (http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=175)

Ishara
05-02-2012, 12:28 PM
That's one possible interpretation of that theory. Maybe he saves them by rejecting them...Maybe the indefinite pronoun "he" refers to someone else. Maybe the Shaido Sept Chief that is on his way to Rhuidean will see the Light and will be vital to the Last Battle by bringing the Shaido to Rand's side...



But Rand didn't reject them - he kept trying to pull themback into the fold. He never wanted or encouraged the schism.

You do raise aninteresting point though - have the Shaido used Rhuidean to raise Clan Chiefs or Wise Ones since their departure back to the Waste?

Davian93
05-02-2012, 12:35 PM
But Rand didn't reject them - he kept trying to pull themback into the fold. He never wanted or encouraged the schism.

You do raise an interesting point though - have the Shaido used Rhuidean to raise Clan Chiefs or Wise Ones since their departure back to the Waste?

They send a Sept Chief to the Columns towards the end of TGS but its an unresolved plot line at this point. I don't know if they've used them before that due to Sevanna's influence.

My long-shot theory is that that guy leads them back into the fold...hence the Faction saying they survive.

Terez
05-02-2012, 12:36 PM
But Rand didn't reject them - he kept trying to pull themback into the fold. He never wanted or encouraged the schism.
Me and Callie and JWB had this argument with Dav a few years back (http://theoryland.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/2143). Maybe we could round them up and do it again for posterity? :)

You do raise aninteresting point though - have the Shaido used Rhuidean to raise Clan Chiefs or Wise Ones since their departure back to the Waste?
They sent Bendhuin as of KOD. No word on whether he made it or not.

Landro
05-03-2012, 06:26 AM
Me and Callie and JWB had this argument with Dav a few years back (http://theoryland.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/2143). Maybe we could round them up and do it again for posterity? :)


They sent Bendhuin as of KOD. No word on whether he made it or not.

I've read most of the thread and I had an interesting idea. What if Benhuin arrives after Avi and sees not the past but the future? That might be a catalyst for the Shaido to rejoin the other clans.

WinespringBrother
05-03-2012, 09:16 AM
The Shaido Wise Ones were fools. They followed Couladin in his quest for power and to be Car'a'carn instead of revealing him as a liar since they knew the truth of the glass columns. Then, after Couladin was killed and the Shaido retreated to Kinslayer's Dagger, they were foolish to follow Sevanna in trying to seize Rand. Though, by that point, they probably thought their only other option was to try to reconcile with the Aiel, knowing they would probably be named dat'sang themselves, which is not an appealing alternative for them. So they painted themselves into a corner.

But then again, they had a lot of company in that regard - Elaida, Gawyn, Sammael.