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IvySedai
05-02-2012, 03:37 PM
During my rereading of the series I came to a scene where Elayne meets the Borderlands rulers to negotiate their passage through Andor. I don´t have the exact quote here, but I borrowed a summary from Leigh Butler´s reread of WH,ch27:

"Merilille introduces her as “Elayne Trakand, of the Green Ajah”; Easar, Paitar and Ethenielle greet her courteously, but Tenobia remarks bluntly to Merilille that Elayne looks more like a child than an Aes Sedai, and asks why she’s brought “a black-eyed Aiel” along. The other three monarchs are visibly annoyed, and Aviendha is confused, muttering that she never even saw black eyes on anyone except peddlers before coming to the wetlands. Elayne tells Tenobia it is enough to know she is Aes Sedai, and introduces Aviendha and Birgitte, naming the former her sister and the latter her Warder, which confuses the Borderlanders. Giving them no time to recover, Elayne immediately sits down and remarks that since “only a fool” would think they are here to invade Andor, they must be here because of the Dragon Reborn."

Now, I know that there are theories around about Tenobia being a darkfriend, reinforced by the fact that her cousin Vram Torkumen, whom she left in charge of Maradon in her absence, is a confirmed darkfriend. But, if I´m not mistaken, there weren´t any really conclusive proves to that. Until ToM came out and we are presented to the shadow´s dark-eyed Aiel at the end of the book. And Tenobia clearly mentions them to others during this meeting.

Well, I am probably being lazy anyway because this must surely have been discussed already elsewhere in the forums (I just can´t find it). But I´d like to know, do people think she can be a higher ranking darkfriend? After all, she knows of things that were hidden deep into the blight. Some Forsaken, even Moridin, might have shown them to her. I don´t think their presence was common knowledge at the Borderlands, the guy killed by the black-eyed Aiel was from Kandor and he didn´t recognize them.

And what does this make of Tenobia´s oaths of loyalty to the Dragon? What might happen at the Fields of Merrilor, with an entire army commanded by a darkfriend? How does this fit with Min´s viewing of Tenobia, a spear hovering over her head, bloody, but shining in the light? Is it going to be a la Sheriam? Or not?

Any thoughts?

Rand al'Fain
05-02-2012, 03:47 PM
Well, Aiel are reffered to as "black-eyed" by many characters thoughout the series, outside of a few that either have had contact with them (through battle/trade/whatever) or studied them (like Elayne and her brothers), well prior to them coming over the Dragonwall with Rand at that.

SauceyBlueConfetti
05-02-2012, 03:59 PM
Hmmm. Hadn't thought about it in connection to the generalization of black eyed Aiel. The red-veiled (gonna getcha, getcha) Aiel is described as dark eyed, glassy eyed but I honestly assumed it was something to do with the True Power. Could very well be they are created beings using the True Power, therefore the eyes are black. And obviously they would have had to exist (created or not) in the past for the label "black eyed Aiel" to become common.

I vote against Tenobia being a DF, she is just stubborn and has firm beliefs about the world. Aiel = bad in her mind, so she is labeling them in a general way.

Dunno. Good questions.

Swordcrowned
05-02-2012, 07:11 PM
I am going to vote no on this one, based on the fact that she came in contact with Super Rand after his trip to Dragonmount. He, at that time was able to recognize a darkfriend on sight.

Terez
05-02-2012, 09:09 PM
I am going to vote no on this one, based on the fact that she came in contact with Super Rand after his trip to Dragonmount. He, at that time was able to recognize a darkfriend on sight.
Not true. First, he had to line up all the Tairen lords and ladies and try to force them to look in his eyes before he could be sure about Weiramon. Second, he was tipped off in a letter from Verin.

Weird Harold
05-02-2012, 09:11 PM
I am going to vote no on this one, based on the fact that she came in contact with Super Rand after his trip to Dragonmount. He, at that time was able to recognize a darkfriend on sight.
Good point.

That probably eliminates all of the other borderland rulers, too.

maleshub
05-02-2012, 09:16 PM
ToM (A Testing):
"Tenobia has a spear hovering over her head," Min said. "Bloody, but shining in the light. Ethenielle will soon be wed — I see that by white doves. She plans to do something dangerous today, so be careful. The other two have various swords, shields and arrows hovering about them. Both will fight soon."

Min's viewing of Tenobia is that she has a bloody spear over her head that is "shining in the Light." I don't think she's a Darkfriend.

IvySedai
05-03-2012, 03:03 PM
To Rand al´Fain: I might be mistaken (I don´t have a list with Aiel citations with me) but IIRC people refer to Aiel as "black-veiled Aiel", not "black-eyed Aiel". In this scene specifically RJ makes a point of calling out our attention to the fact that Tenobia used the expression "black-eyed" (and not "black-veiled") by making Aviendha comment on it. I remember, when I first read it, that I thought Tenobia had only confused the saying.

To maleshub: That is exactly why I asked if the fullfilment of the viewing would be a la Sheriam. Sheriam´s viewing was this: "Rays of silver and blue flashed about her fiery hair, and a soft golden light". I could never guess from this golden light that Sheriam would be in the dark side and would end like that. I know the spear is shinning in the light (light, not Light), but it could mean another thing entirely, or it could mean redemption. Who knows?

Maybe Rand would really be able to recognize a darkfriend at sight, or maybe not (as Terez has pointed out). What really tipped me off was RJ commenting on it through Aviendha, so I guessed it could be some indication to Tenobia´s alliances.

Rand al'Fain
05-03-2012, 04:24 PM
To Rand al´Fain: I might be mistaken (I don´t have a list with Aiel citations with me) but IIRC people refer to Aiel as "black-veiled Aiel", not "black-eyed Aiel". In this scene specifically RJ makes a point of calling out our attention to the fact that Tenobia used the expression "black-eyed" (and not "black-veiled") by making Aviendha comment on it. I remember, when I first read it, that I thought Tenobia had only confused the saying.
Good catch.

Maybe Rand would really be able to recognize a darkfriend at sight, or maybe not (as Terez has pointed out). What really tipped me off was RJ commenting on it through Aviendha, so I guessed it could be some indication to Tenobia´s alliances.Or, it could be Tenobia has encountered some of the red-veiled Aiel at some point in her past, since she is a Borderlander and was not always Queen. Not saying that's what happened, but it is certainly a possiility.

Heinz
05-03-2012, 04:41 PM
Considering the speculation about Bashere's 'something dark', there could be something to Tenobia being a Darkfriend-turned-Light. A situation where they felt compelled to obey once, but now pull an Ingtar (sp?) and act on what they truly believe/desire.

Grig
05-03-2012, 04:55 PM
In LoC, the band used "kill the black-eyed vermin" as a battle cry when fighting Aiel.

In TPoD, an Andoran farmer said Rand is one of "them black-eyed Aielmen".

Reading too much into Tenobia's comment.

Ishara
05-03-2012, 05:10 PM
Some supporting quotes...
TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 22 - Heading South
Wondering why he was not dead yet—he had been lucky with one Aiel, but nobody had enough luck to face this—he suddenly realized he was no longer alone. A skinny Cairhienin in his smallclothes fell nearly under his feet with a shrill yell, only to be replaced by a Tairen with his shirt flapping and sword swinging. More crowded in, shouting everything from "Lord Matrim and victory!" to "The Red Hand!" to "Kill the black-eyed vermin!"


TITLE: Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: 20 - Into Andor
"Oh, it's true, my lady, so it is; Elayne's alive," a gnarled old carpenter told her in Forel Market. He was bald as a leather egg, his fingers twisted with age, but the work standing among the shavings and sawdust that littered his shop looked as fine as any Elayne had seen. She was the only person in the shop besides him. From the look of the village, half the residents had left. "The Dragon Reborn is having her brought to Caemlyn so he can put the Rose Crown on her head himself," he allowed. "The news is all over. 'Tisn't right, if you ask me. He's one of them black-eyed Aielmen, I hear. We ought to march on Caemlyn and drive him and all them Aiel back where they come from. Then Elayne can claim the throne her own self. If Dyelin lets her keep it, anyway."


TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 27 - To Surprise Queens and Kings
Where the others carried their years with grace, Tenobia of Saldaea flaunted youth if not beauty, with her eagle's beak of a nose and wide mouth. Her tilted, almost purple eyes, level with Elayne's, were her best feature. Perhaps her only one. Where the others dressed simply, even if they did rule nations, her pale blue dress was worked with pearls and sapphires and she wore more sapphires in her hair. Suitable for the court, but hardly for a camp. And where they were courteous. . . ."Under the Light, Merilille Sedai," Tenobia said in a high voice, frowning, "I know you speak truth, but she looks more a child than an Aes Sedai. You did not mention she would be bringing a black-eyed Aiel."

greatwolf
05-03-2012, 05:29 PM
Some supporting quotes...

I think we'll need better quotes. These are all from commoners, people who have never met aiel or had an accurate description. Something that shouldn't apply to a Queen. I thought initially Tenobia was just being insulting to put Elayne off balance but now I'm not so sure.

Jasin Natael
05-03-2012, 05:54 PM
It's enough that it's a common misconception in the WT world. Tenobia is a borderlander too young for the Aiel War, why would she need to know the usual eye colour of the Aiel? The people who have met them have other things on their mind at the time, like staying alive.

As for leaving a Darkfriend in charge, that means nothing. Agelmar sent Ingtar to retrieve the Horn. Both Keepers of the Keys were black ajah. Rand has Weiramon on his staff for a long time.

Grig
05-03-2012, 06:28 PM
I think we'll need better quotes. These are all from commoners, people who have never met aiel or had an accurate description.

Look at a WoT map. Andoran peasants are more likely to have seen an Aiel than a Saldaean like Tenobia.

These are all from commoners, people who have never met aiel or had an accurate description.

Like Elayne? This "monarchs should know about Aiel physiology" line is ridiculous. Re-read the scene where Elayne meets Aviendha. You're making very unwarranted assumptions.

David Selig
05-03-2012, 07:12 PM
Gawyn told Rand he looked exactly like an Aielman when they met in EOTW, so he clearly knew that they usually have blue or gray eyes.

Of course, the members of the Andoran royal family are more likely to know this than other monarchs since they look like Aiel, and people who have fought in the Aiel war like Gareth Bryne have probably mentioned that to them.

Tollingtoy
05-03-2012, 07:47 PM
Gawyn knew so much about the Aiel because of his studies as First Prince of the Sword, not from first hand experience.

Ishara
05-04-2012, 08:26 AM
I think we'll need better quotes. These are all from commoners, people who have never met aiel or had an accurate description. Something that shouldn't apply to a Queen. I thought initially Tenobia was just being insulting to put Elayne off balance but now I'm not so sure.
~face palm~ Of course! Let me dig up all the others that popped up that I deliberately left out!

If you think we need better quotes, how about you find them? As it stands you used them to make another staggering leap of logic. Because somehow being monarchy excludes people from being capable of ignorance...

GonzoTheGreat
05-04-2012, 10:44 AM
Because somehow being monarchy excludes people from being capable of ignorance...
Of course it does. That's why Gawyn never really believed that ludicrous rumour that Rand had killed Morgase.

Lost One
12-15-2012, 09:13 PM
It seems that I saw early quotes inte text of Black-eyed Aiel before those mentioned above, but I am not sure where. As far as "it was commoners who said that" .. Well commoners would get the saying from travelers or others third-and further hand accounts. And since it is wrong, as very few Aiel have dark eyes, much less black, we know it is an incorrect stereotype description.

Or it could be that BS simply made an error by putting black-eyed instead of black-veiled, But since there are other quotes of black-eyed Aiel, I doubt that. I think Tenobia just succumbed to the stereotype, which being a hot headed and fiery young woman, is likely.

What other evidence is there to against her?

GonzoTheGreat
12-16-2012, 04:54 AM
I think that the "black eyed Aiel" thing is just a conflation of them being considered "as close to Shadowspawn as makes no difference" and the normal eye color of Trollocs.
Combined, probably, with not making a distinction between "black eyed" and "black veiled".
Perrin gasped, and nearly dropped Elyas's hand. The man's eyes were yellow, like bright, polished gold. Some memory tickled at the back of Perrin's mind, then fled. All he could think of right then was that all of the Trollocs' eyes he had seen had been almost black.

danmickleson
01-20-2013, 01:24 AM
Dan - your post involved AMoL information on the General forum. Please do not post AMoL spoilers anywhere but on the AMoL forum.