PDA

View Full Version : Why does Rand have to die?


Nazbaque
05-10-2012, 08:22 PM
This isn't even an actual theory, just an idea I've been toying with since my last reread.

The thought process I had was basically this: "Oh another Rand will die forshadowing"..."Why? Why does he have to die? Okay it's dramatic and all that but what is the purpose? Could he actually achieve something directly by dying?" Then later on the idea came to me that Rand's soul could be used to hold back the Dark One when the seals are broken and the Bore is being Healed.

This is the idea I've had, but so far I haven't been able to find evidence to support it even being possible let alone anything to indicate that it would definitely happen, but I thought that at the very least the original question would be worth discussing.

So why must Rand die? What is the gain?

Zombie Sammael
05-11-2012, 06:39 AM
Something that springs instantly to mind is that Rand's death and subsequent resurrection might break his link to the land. While this doesn't sound so great, it would actually work for the Light. The Dark One would no longer be able to harm the land by harming Rand, whilst a TAR-resurrected Rand would retain all of his other essential properties, plus some potentially useful past life knowledge. Plus, all the injuries the Shadow has so far succeeded in inflicting upon Rand would be undone, making him both stronger and saner.

Tomp
05-11-2012, 06:49 AM
Something you said there Zombie struck me.

A ripped out Rand (a'la Birgitte) would not only have the knowledge of LTT.
He would have the knowledge of all his previous incarnation, just as Birgitte.
These memories may hold the key on how to imprison DO.
The memories would fade away with time, just as for Birgitte.

GonzoTheGreat
05-11-2012, 07:00 AM
He might remember how he sealed away the DO a previous time. But then again, the DO undoubtedly also remembers that, and he'll have planned to prevent a repeat. So if Rand tries it the same way that worked one Turn ago, then it is not at all guaranteed he'll have any succes this time.
Depending too much on old memories could be a fatal mistake.

And I doubt that Rand's death would break his link to the land. The saying is "the Land is one with the Dragon, and the Dragon is one with the Land". That doesn't limit it to the Dragon Reborn only, does it?
Just generic "Dragon", the DO's ancient enemy.

And finally, why would you want Rand to be any saner? Get him too sane, and he may decide that Moridin has a point after all. It is his insane resistance in the face of overwhelming force which makes him go on right now.

Grig
05-11-2012, 10:08 AM
One answer could be that Rand dying is necessary to break his link with Moridin. This makes much more sense than the idea that it would break his link with the land.

Rand al'Fain
05-11-2012, 11:44 AM
One answer could be that Rand dying is necessary to break his link with Moridin. This makes much more sense than the idea that it would break his link with the land.

Could kill Moridin instead. Which would throw a big fat wrench into the whole "body swap" theory. Wouldn't be the first time Rand killed "him."

SauceyBlueConfetti
05-11-2012, 12:14 PM
It would break his link with the girls...which could play a part if the DO (or Moridin) holds/hurts them to try to sway Rand in some way.

Ripping him from Tel'a'dreamyland (join the faction (http://theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=184)) and having him retain the previous incarnation memories is an even more interesting idea.

Grig
05-11-2012, 12:50 PM
Could kill Moridin instead. Which would throw a big fat wrench into the whole "body swap" theory. Wouldn't be the first time Rand killed "him."

And if Moridin refuses to seek him out to do battle? Moridin doesn't want to kill Rand, and has nothing to gain by battling him (and much to lose -- if either of them dies, he dies).

Dom
05-11-2012, 01:11 PM
One answer could be that Rand dying is necessary to break his link with Moridin. This makes much more sense than the idea that it would break his link with the land.

A lot.

I don't think Rand being one with Creation is ever broken.

The third Age was in so many ways a reflection of LTT's shattering, madness, grief, paranoia, bursts of hopes followed by shattering failures and despair, races to unity only to give up. In essence, the Third Age lived in the Shadow of LTT/the Dragon, the dominating infuence in the collective inconscious was him, his legend in all its ambiguity. I think this may be the reflect of the "Dragon's dream", with LTT as the last and more dominant influence in the "dead dragon" in TAR, but not the only one either as he was also the aggregate of all Dragons there. Birgitte is a good clue it's still LTT who would have dominated the combo, the more positive side coming from other past lives.

Dramatically, the reason Rand needs to "die" is because Shai'tan is the Lord of the Grave, and if Rand dies the ultimate fight for control of his soul can happen. If Rand is One with the Land, therefore Shai'tan seizing his soul would be huge step (if not the final one) in his takeover of Creation through Rand. Apparently it's the easiest way, but not the best for the DO.

We have two potentially conflicting prophecies concerning Rand's death (if the first one is about Rand): first, Egwene's dream of the dying man in which she's convinced it's vital that man doesn't die. Then we have the Finns saying Rand must die.

IMO this is because Rand will be at some point on the brink of death, in circumstances after "the great battle" where his soul would be seized by the DO, thus the future will balance on the edge of a blade. Nynaeve's task then will be to keep him alive until the circumstances have passed and it is safe to let go, to let Rand die.

This could fairly simply mean Rand and Moridin will both be on the brink of death, and if Rand dies first, Shai'tan will have his mean to seize Rand's soul. Moridin's bond to Rand must be cut, leaving Shai'tan with Moridin's soul (he can simply transmigrate back into Moridin's body...) but no tie to Rand anymore (or a very tenuous one because of his prior use of the TP). Alivia may "help Rand to die" by being the one tasked, while Rand is on the brink of death, to track down and kill Moridin.

Then Rand will be able to "safely" die, and the rest would be up to Egwene figuring out what Moghedien may have done to translate Birgitte into the living Pattern (which would include Nynaeve/Birgitte remembering exactly what Moghedien was aiming to accomplish, and I doubt she acoomplished what she really meant to do... IMO she meant to cut Birgitte's link to TAR and send her soul to the "afterdeath/soul pool" so her rebirth would be untied anymore to Gaidal's and she's had lost herself forever, blank slates every time and all. I think Moghedien didn't succeed at cutting Birgitte's tie to the Wheel as Hero (if she even targeted it), and Birgitte's "TAR life" made it impossible for her to enter the regular afterlife and she ended up in the real world to go die there first and return to TAR (ie: Moghedien's will wasn't strong enough to do what she meant to do, she got partly there but the Wheel fought her attempt). Elayne's bond then provided an opportunity for the Wheel to give TAR Birgitte a life thread, piggy-backing on Elayne's thread. So Birgitte is dead yet lives.

Egwene with help from Nyaneve/Birgitte will "simply" have to figure out how to do that - something based on sheer strength of will, I very much suspect. It may turn out what Moghedien did is fundamentally "Evil" to the Pattern's stability and at this point might unravel it, and a workaround way would have to be found. It could lead to admitedly bizarre scenarios involving Birgitte's death for Rand's life - though there's no foreshadowing for such Birgitte/Rand ties.

Rand/the Dragon will forever remain one with the Land. His post TG life, how he envisions life, his happiness, state of mind, how deeply the LB will has affected him etc. when he finally dies after a long or not so long life will shape a lot the Fourth Age. This is why it was so vital that "Dark Rand" couldn't possibly win the LB, or victory would have been just as bad as a defeat.

SauceyBlueConfetti
05-11-2012, 01:49 PM
Then Rand will be able to "safely" die, and the rest would be up to Egwene figuring out what Moghedien may have done to translate Birgitte into the living Pattern (which would include Nynaeve/Birgitte remembering exactly what Moghedien was aiming to accomplish, and I doubt she acoomplished what she really meant to do... IMO she meant to cut Birgitte's link to TAR and send her soul to the "afterdeath/soul pool" so her rebirth would be untied anymore to Gaidal's and she's had lost herself forever, blank slates every time and all. I think Moghedien didn't succeed at cutting Birgitte's tie to the Wheel as Hero (if she even targeted it), and etc. etc.

One book left. One. This seems a bit too convuluted to fit, along with the rest of the tie ups, in this book.

Nynaeve may play a part, but Egwene? Doubtful. I would sooner guess Nynaeve will act as she normally does...quickly and a bit rashly...to retrieve Rand from TAR if possible.

I have conflicting thoughts though...entering TAR in the flesh has been made out to be a big no-no, from the Egwene storyline, to Rand chasing Ravhin, to Slayer. I always assumed Rand entering TAR physically would play some larger role in the ending, and in fact have something to do with his dying within TAR & being torn back out. BUT. Now Zombie's post, and the idea Rand would have to die to have the eons of memories of the Dragon in TAR comes up (DAMN YOU ZOMBIE). I am really starting to like this idea and am now torn. Possibly Slayer's story is the only important part of entering in the flesh and will not be pertinent to Rand at all.

Zombie Sammael
05-11-2012, 05:24 PM
To explain the thought about the link being severed: it's more accurate to say that if Rand died the particular wound in his side that he presently has would likely be healed. Although the Blight's been there all third age long, Rand's wound is a much more recent phenomenon, and while it reflects the presence of the Blight, it is also independent from it; therefore there's no reason to think it would magically reappear upon his being removed from TAR. Moreover, I actually think healing this unhealable wound is key in some way to sealing the Bore. This might be the means by which it is done.

Tomp
05-11-2012, 06:48 PM
I know that Nynaeve, sort of, witnessed when Birgitte was ripped out.
But I don't think she saw how it was done.

Maybe Birgitte can help with that information
or
Lanfear may know how it's done. (sorry I meant Cyndane)

Zombie Sammael
05-11-2012, 06:58 PM
I know that Nynaeve, sort of, witnessed when Birgitte was ripped out.
But I don't think she saw how it was done.

Maybe Birgitte can help with that information
or
Lanfear may know how it's done. (sorry I meant Cyndane)

I have suggested this latter. Unfortunately, someone disagreed. Vehemently.

FelixPax
05-11-2012, 06:58 PM
The thought process I had was basically this: "Oh another Rand will die forshadowing"..."Why? Why does he have to die?

Rand al'Thor HAS to die, so the real true blind Dragon Reborn's soul can take the center stage, like a true Ringmaster. It's Valan Luca's time to rise up, and shine.

Rand al'Thor is simply a Plowman, for the true Dragon's Soul.


Easy. To kill himself [Rand], means killing Moridin and the Dark One's body in one swoop.

Since ACoS book at minimum, Rand has been "tied" to the Moridin's soul and mind. Likewise Moridin has allowed the Dark One to become one with himself, since at least ACoS book.

It's Robert Jordan's version of the trinity: Father, Son, Holy Ghost... yet in four: Dark One, Rand, Shaidar Haran, Moridin. It's an ending also influenced by Sanskit epics: Mahabharata, Ramayana.

In terms of *horror literature*, WoT series uses "silent" to a great degree to foreshadow coming conflicts. It's so very Homer-esque: Illiad, Odyssey. Example: Galad's POV in Knife of Dream Prologue, near the Shadow Coast Mountains.

In terms of *metaphor*, WoT series contains a high degree of Hinduism [eg Valan Luca and Ganesha], Buddhism [eg Mat Cauthon & King's Park in Illian, Tree in Rhuidean, Ancient Aes Sedai symbol; King Ashoka, Kalinga War, Deer Park at Sarnath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarnath), Yin & Yang symbol] influences [TEOTW Prologue--especially his *visual* oriented style of prose. Brandon Sanderson is not as good at writing this visual metaphoric aspect of WoT.], along with Carl Jung, Freud [eg Tar Valon's phallus & vagina visual symbolism etc], Joseph Campbell [eg Quest modeled beginning of TEOTW book], Ernest Hemingway et al.

In terms of *sexual situations*, WoT series Robert Jordan does seem have been influenced greatly by Robert Heinlein's "[I]Group Marriage" ideas for an grand ending. Meshed with Mark Twain's Dream ending for 'A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court'--yes, there is a Gaul character in that book too.



Thing is, Rand al'Thor is not *the* savior... there are multiple saviors in WoT. Nynaeve al'Meara, Lan, Mat Cauthon, Valan Luca... even Thom & Elaida. It takes a cooperative group to win, against the Shadow. Remember the Aiel Maidens do play a game called "Thousand Flowers".... :D

Chuckling... indeed, yes, "The Creature" is a collective group of beings or souls, who can win against the Shadow too.

Nynaeve al'Meara and others, will need to create a new Beginning, in a New Dream World. As The Creature's Nightmare can have his own place of horror. Meanwhile the Dark One, shall get kicked out of both Nynaeve's and The Creature's separate two Dream Worlds.

Tomp
05-11-2012, 07:03 PM
Rand al'Thor is simply a Plowman, for the true Dragon's Soul.


How funny it would be if that turns out to be true.

And I use the word funny in the wrong sense.

Zombie Sammael
05-11-2012, 07:06 PM
Chuckling... indeed, yes, "The Creature" is a collective group of beings or souls, who can win against the Shadow too.

Nynaeve al'Meara and others, will need to create a new Beginning, in a New Dream World. As The Creature's Nightmare can have his own place of horror. Meanwhile the Dark One, shall get kicked out of both Nynaeve's and The Creature's separate two Dream Worlds.

Sure, but The Creature's victory would be as bad as if the Dark One achieved partial victory (at least).

FelixPax
05-11-2012, 07:14 PM
One is not likely to "rip" Rand al'Thor soul from the TAR, in AMoL book. Since 'this World' called Earth is changing: part Mirror World, part Parallel World [No separate TAR], part Dark One's World.

Can the Horn of Valere even work in a Parallel World, in a place similar to Hinderstrap or the Tower of Ghenjei?

Simply easier to just start over, in a new Dream. That to try to alter a huge world sized nightmare.

FelixPax
05-11-2012, 07:18 PM
Rand's a Bull who's been *harnessed* and *reined* in, to be slaughtered in AMoL... in metaphoric terms. Just search for all the harness references & its synonyms in the WoT books. It's all there.


The Creature in a way, is similar to Moghedien... each is fightning the Dark One is their own ways. For more on The Creature's nature, see Egwene's descriptions of Padan Fain in Fal Dara.

Tomp
05-12-2012, 06:34 AM
I wonder who's going to have the memory of light (as the title suggests).

Rand or Lanfear (or both).

Edynol
05-12-2012, 08:53 AM
Kinda off topic, but does anyone know if the way gate was destroyed with SL during the cleansing?

GonzoTheGreat
05-12-2012, 09:30 AM
Kinda off topic, but does anyone know if the way gate was destroyed with SL during the cleansing?
Probably, though not certainly. No one mentioned a Waygate floating in the air above a one mile deep hole. It may be that the AS did not consider it worth mentioning in their report, though.

Terez
05-12-2012, 10:12 AM
Dramatically, the reason Rand needs to "die" is because Shai'tan is the Lord of the Grave, and if Rand dies the ultimate fight for control of his soul can happen.
Well, we aren't talking about his "death" here, are we? It may be that there is disaster at Shayol Ghul and the Dark One gains control in whatever way—the link, a mindtrap, or something else that can only be done at Shayol Ghul—but if it's transmigration, then it's even more vital that he be killed (again). I think it's already vital because of the link with Moridin, and while it's possible that he will die twice, I think when he dies for real (as in, goes to Tel'aran'rhiod), then that's where Slayer comes in. It's the reason why he was created.

We have two potentially conflicting prophecies concerning Rand's death (if the first one is about Rand): first, Egwene's dream of the dying man in which she's convinced it's vital that man doesn't die. Then we have the Finns saying Rand must die.
I'm not so sure that they are necessarily conflicting. The sentiment expressed in the Egwene dream is just that—a sentiment. He is the Dragon Reborn; he's supposed to save the world, and at this point it hasn't been saved yet, so of course it's important that he not die. That doesn't mean he won't die. At least, that's how I see it. But as you know I have believed for many years that he would die before he had finished the job.

IMO this is because Rand will be at some point on the brink of death, in circumstances after "the great battle" where his soul would be seized by the DO, thus the future will balance on the edge of a blade. Nynaeve's task then will be to keep him alive until the circumstances have passed and it is safe to let go, to let Rand die.
This scenario seems slightly convoluted to me. How do you feel about the Broken Wolf? I think it is connected to Egwene's dream about the pyre by the emotions expressed at Rand's death:

A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness.
Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.
And there's another hint of that in the Chinese Whispers segment at the end of TPOD:

The Dragon Reborn was dead, and there was as much celebration as mourning, as many tears as cries of joy.
I don't believe that Rand has to be kept alive long enough to do what needs doing. I believe he needs to be destroyed, and then resurrected to do what needs doing. You seem to recognize that with your thoughts on the Dark One grabbing his soul, but at that point, why should he be kept alive? At that point, he needs to die.

[PS—In retrospect, I supposed it's possible that Nynaeve will keep him alive long enough to get him away from Shayol Ghul, at which point she will let him die. But then that seems to bypass many other foreshadowings about his death. Moiraine is more connected to Rand's death than Nynaeve is, but we still have Egwene to contend with; there are too many foreshadowings to ignore.]

Then Rand will be able to "safely" die, and the rest would be up to Egwene figuring out what Moghedien may have done to translate Birgitte into the living Pattern (which would include Nynaeve/Birgitte remembering exactly what Moghedien was aiming to accomplish...
I know you have believed for a long time that Egwene's skill in Tel'aran'rhiod would be important to the Last Battle, and I agree with you on that. I doubt, however, that she will have much to do with Rand's resurrection. The series is littered with foreshadowings of Rand's resurrection, and Egwene is tied to exactly none of them (unless I am missing something), apparently quite purposefully. Egwene is, however, tied to Rand's death in several foreshadowings. The foreshadowing of the resurrection almost always involves Nynaeve, and often involves Elayne and Birgitte (even aside from the blatant parallel between Birgitte's situation and Rand's). Sometimes Min and Aviendha. But never Egwene. Even Egwene's dreams seem to reflect her not being in the loop on the resurrection; in her dream of Logain, the body falls apart like a paper puppet, and in her dream of the pyre, she only knows that it is important he not die, but that he is going to die anyway.

Of course, the Logain dream even contains a hint of Illusion, since touch is the weakness of the weave. This has fueled the faker theories for a long time, but just because they're wrong doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be Rand's body.

I think Moghedien didn't succeed at cutting Birgitte's tie to the Wheel as Hero (if she even targeted it)...
Agreed on that point, and mostly because of Min's viewings of Birgitte in Winter's Heart. Clearly she is still tied to Gaidal at least, which suggests that she is also still tied to the Horn. Min's knowledge in this area might be vital; she (unlike Egwene) has a foreshadowing to that effect (also in Winter's Heart), when she says that if Rand dies she will follow him and bring him back.

Elayne's bond...provided an opportunity for the Wheel to give TAR Birgitte a life thread, piggy-backing on Elayne's thread. So Birgitte is dead yet lives.
She said so herself, just in reference to their unique afterlife. "Those of us who are bound to the Wheel are not dead as others are dead." That is true because they can still interact with the living if they so choose. That fact becomes particularly relevant in cases like Birgitte's.

It could lead to admittedly bizarre scenarios involving Birgitte's death for Rand's life - though there's no foreshadowing for such Birgitte/Rand ties.
And Min's viewings indicate that Birgitte's relationship to Gaidal has already been permanently altered, so her return to Tel'aran'rhiod seems unlikely.

Rand/the Dragon will forever remain one with the Land. His post TG life, how he envisions life, his happiness, state of mind, how deeply the LB will has affected him etc. when he finally dies after a long or not so long life will shape a lot the Fourth Age. This is why it was so vital that "Dark Rand" couldn't possibly win the LB, or victory would have been just as bad as a defeat.
And this is why he gets to finally go home when it's all done (tons of foreshadowing there) and why he gets three wives. Or something. ;)

Grig
05-12-2012, 11:46 AM
In retrospect, I supposed it's possible that Nynaeve will keep him alive long enough to get him away from Shayol Ghul, at which point she will let him die.

Enough time for Rand to say that he must be balefired so the DO can't capture his soul? None of the women he knows can pull the trigger, so Alivia has to "help him die". It really makes sense. There's a reason some older people like to specify people outside their very immediate family to decide when to pull the plug. They're more able to do "what's best" than someone who has much more of an emotional connection.

Terez
05-12-2012, 01:47 PM
Enough time for Rand to say that he must be balefired so the DO can't capture his soul?
It's hard to say. I tend to think that, if he needs to be balefired, then Moiraine already knows.

None of the women he knows can pull the trigger, so Alivia has to "help him die".Moiraine can do it, and will. I've said it before, but I'll say it again: I expect Alivia's role to be more minor than we were led to believe in WH. I think Alivia is a red herring meant to draw attention away from Mordred parallels in the same sense that Alviarin was a red herring meant to draw attention away from Verin.

Landro
05-12-2012, 01:54 PM
What if they Balefire not Rand but Ishy. Because of the bond Rand might die too but in the past which would also prevent the DO from grabbing his soul.

Terez
05-12-2012, 03:04 PM
Min's viewing suggests that they won't both die at the same time. I tend to think Rand will be the one to die first, hence I have won again, Lews Therin...

Southpaw2012
05-13-2012, 09:48 PM
him dying would show a sacrifice made for the world. The people would then have to really work together to fight back the Shadow or suffer consequences of losing (even though it's likely Rand will still be out doing his thing)

FelixPax
05-14-2012, 06:01 PM
Enough time for Rand to say that he must be balefired so the DO can't capture his soul?

Dark One already HAS ACCESS to Rand al'Thor. Since at least the Rhuidean scenes, where he *accepted* the Dark One in the Void.

Moridin and Rand as one in the same, their tied together, Two souls tied together as One.

Moridin *accepted* the Dark One too.

Min's viewing suggests that they won't both die at the same time. I tend to think Rand will be the one to die first, hence I have won again, Lews Therin...

Thus, Terez's thinking is bluntly incorrect.

One cannot *successfully balefire* Rand al'Thor nor Moridin, as the Dark One cannot be Balefired to Death.

Balefire is an inferior weapon, as Perrin has shown to Egwene al'Vere in the TAR.

Dreams are a superior weapon, to Balefire.

Dom
05-15-2012, 03:40 PM
Well, we aren't talking about his "death" here, are we?

I was using the "" merely because we're not taking about a death that would remove Rand from the story, and in the case of a Hero like Rand, "death" is a somewhat different concept than for anyone else, being dead in the physical world and for all intents, alive in TAR.

It may be that there is disaster at Shayol Ghul and the Dark One gains control in whatever way—the link, a mindtrap, or something else that can only be done at Shayol Ghul—but if it's transmigration,

Plan A was to convince Rand to come to the Shadow. That always seemed preferable to the Shadow, for reasons we still don't fully understand, even if some of the advantages are fairly obvious. I'll leave it at that, as it's plan B that's my topic.

Plan A seems more and more unlikely to succeed, though by the beginning of TGS hopes were somewhat rekindled for a while. The Epiphany seems to have destroyed plan A, short of turning a captured Rand to the Shadow, a method which may or not work on Rand post-Epiphany)

Plan B appears to center on Rand's death in specific conditions (How, or when, or where, or by whom. Or a combination). From the very beginning of the series Ishamael presented it as a viable alternative, but clearly as an alternative to plan A. He never explicity said (IRRC) that Shai'tan preferred it. Rand being one with Creation/the Land, gaining control of his soul appears, at least, to be handing Shai'tan his victory, or be a very solid milestone towards it. The "loss" for Shai'tan isn't so obvious. If plan B involves a bond with Moridin, I'm sure we can and will find reasons to explain why for Moridin it wasn't the favorite option, why he preferred if he could convince Rand to serve his master alive. For Shai'tan, it might not matter, in the end he'd kill Rand anyway.

Shai'tan ordered the Cleansing to be opposed. Moridin passed on his orders, but did not volunteer the information that the order not to kill Rand was temporarily lifted. He only did it with apparent reluctance when Demandred brought it up. We might take a guess at what the consequences for Moridin may have been - like losing the bond and being back to square one, with another transmigration for him. Perhaps we should look into the possible motives of Shai'tan to prioritize the failure of the Cleansing over the success/progress of plan B (or else question if the Bond to Moridin is after all really so important).

I think when he dies for real (as in, goes to Tel'aran'rhiod), then that's where Slayer comes in. It's the reason why he was created.

There, we are perhaps closer than we think to each other's theories.

I see Slayer as Moridin-Rand 1.0. A beta-test.

One of my idle theories is that Luc Mantear was the latest incarnation of an unknown Hero of the Horn (another brother-sister combo with Tigraine? Let's not get further into that) and that the fact Luc, while dead, can be alive in TAR originates from this fact (it doesn't have to, I just choose to think it's linked).

I think Luc was "bonded" to Isam then killed in controlled conditions. I think if we could puzzle out how the Horn of Valere worked, perhaps we could understand what let's Slayer enter and exit TAR at will (it can't really be related to Moghedien's trick followed by a bonding of the two, it wouldn't explain why Luc-Isam share a body and can alternate between two appearances using TAR). But I will suggest this: I believe Slayer became "whole" only after the Horn was sounded in TGH, and by that I suggest until then the bond between them existed, but Isam was in the real world, unable to enter TAR at will, and Luc was dead and TAR-bound. The sounding of the Horn somehow fused them and the combo for mysterious reasons only more exposition about the Horn's working would let us puzzle out at this point, was able to retain the ability to come in/out of TAR and to retain Luc's body after re entering the real world (where a bond to Isam keeps him alive) or Isam's, indifferently. It's like Birgitte one might say, but it's also like the Heroes re-entering the real world in what appears to be "in the flesh" when the Horn is sounded.

If you've followed me so far, I'm suggesting the bond between Luc and Isam held after Luc's death and thus I open the door to the possibility Rand's death may not be enough to sever his bond to Moridin, that Rand's death at the moment would simply merge them into the combo for which Isam-Luc were the template. It's an open question if killing Isam would sever his bond to Luc, if killing Moridin would sever the bond to Rand.

Which leads me to the famous bond. I've long believed it's not "an accident". I rather believe it involves two aspects. The first step was accomplished by Ishamael on orders from Shai'tan. It was accomplished at Falme, with the TP wound. This is like an anchor, which in time has attached itself to Rand's soul.

The second step was to attach Moridin's soul to this anchor now tied to Rand's soul. That happened at Shadar Logoth. That took Moridin completely by surprise. Why? Either he never actually knew why Shai'tan ordered him to pierce Rand's body and channel the TP into it at Falme or he never expected Shai'tan would complete the bond without his knowing or without needing him to do it. A golden opportunity simply opened: the OP/TP streams touched, Shai'tan took a direct hand (an ability he always has when someone channels the TP, IMHO, that the TP does what you direct it to do unless Shai'tan attempts to change what you're doing into something else) and He made the TP piggyback on Rand's stream as he was still holding the weave, all the way to attach itself to the anchor, completing the bonding.

If that is correct, the way this bond may now be cut becomes more obvious. Saidin/Saidar keep the SL Taint from touching the TP wound in Rand's body. If the OP was removed, the TP/SL wounds would destroy each other, severing the bond from its anchor. Of course, that would most likely result in Rand's death - as it's long been foreshadowed these wounds may kill him one day.


I'm not so sure that they are necessarily conflicting. The sentiment expressed in the Egwene dream is just that—a sentiment. He is the Dragon Reborn; he's supposed to save the world, and at this point it hasn't been saved yet, so of course it's important that he not die. That doesn't mean he won't die.

I'm not suggesting he won't die, let alone twice (in the timeframe of the book, that is). I also agree your interpretation is also valid, it's one reasons I wrote that these two prophecies were only potentially conflicting. I think it's also valid to think that what you call "a sentiment" may be a key-element of the Dream's interpretation, in fact the purpose of the dream, a warning to Egwene.

This scenario seems slightly convoluted to me.

It would definitely be very convoluted if Rand dies without knowing anything, Nyaneve and co. rush to puzzle things out without even knowing where this is going and so. It's not what I'm suggesting, though.

Let's go to a scenario (no doubt with many inconsistencies, I'll craft it as I go along) to clarify the theorical ideas.

I'll start at a point in AMOL when Rand has already figured out he cannot attempt to seal the Bore without severing first his bond to Moridin. Perhaps Shai'tan's power over this bond has increased after the seals were broken, that now Rand feels Shai'tan's hand pulling at him. Perhaps Brandon's allusion to further consequences of Rand having used the TP may play a role into all this.

So he has the Finn's riddle to help. The World as One part may be solved by then. That leaves "to live, you must die" for Rand to figure out. To win the LB and live, Rand must die. In my scenario, Rand figures out he must die to sever the bond before attempting to seal the Bore (could this be included with the seals in clearing the rubble first? Maybe). One clue from the KC: his blood will be shed on the rocks of SG. One clue from the Cleansing: the SL taint and the DO's taint destroy one another. Removing the OP would let the SL taint destroy the bond... and would kill Rand. That leaves how the heck he can do this and live again to finish the task. "You haven't puzzled out ressurection by any chance Nynaeve?". Nynaeve sniffs "I can't Heal death Rand, put that out of your head. Do you take me for the Creator?". But there's Elayne's warder, Birgitte Rand knows to be a Hero of the Horn, who is dead, but lives... "Rand, Moghedien had a way to rip out of TAR and into the world a dead Hero of the Horn. I don't really know how she did it, I don't think I could do it". Aviendha looks to the WO, who look the other way at Egwene. But is Rand a Hero of the Horn too? Birgitte may not remember this by now. "Maybe he is, that rings a bell, I can't be sure". Rand looks at Justice at his side... he remembers what Hawkwing told him at Falme... how they fought together and opposed each other so many times over the Ages. "I think I am, no I'm sure I am". That opens two avenues for Rand: either Egwene, the WO and Nynaeve figure out what Moghedien did to rip Birgitte out of TAR. If it works Rand's three women wait to bond him again, and that's one way Rand lives again, "dead yet alive" (Min, Elayne and Aviendha look slightly less green. Elayne turns to Aviendha "If only you had not gotten yourself pregnant, we'd know if it succeeds because of Min's viewing of you. I could run to the Pit of Doom and I'd survive you know, my babies will be born healthy and I can't die". Aviendah mumbles "Run into the Pit of Doom, not bloody likely. Be rolled into it would be more like it".).

If Egwene fails, if anything goes wrong, the fall back plan is obviously to sound the Horn of Valere so the dead can be ward against the Fall of the Long Night. Rand will be dead but alive, in TAR, and he will live.. a rebirth when the Wheel decides he's needed again (Min, Aviendha and Elayne look decidedly sick again). The Finn's riddle is fulfilled either way, there's no way to know until Rand dies, so a leap of faith is demanded - the bond has to go.. Egwene raises objections, brings up the Dying Man and how important she felt that he didn't die. "Did you see me Egwene? Are you sure it's me in your dream?". "No, but who could it be if not you, Perrin?". "Why not? Where would you be if he wasn't holding the Third Covenant behind you?". Egwene storms out. Egwene comes back : "Gawyn, when I storm out from a room, you follow. And what did I tell you about looking at Rand that way?".

The Light HQ, in the hills around Dragonmount. Hours Before Dawn. The Shadow has striked again at the remnants of humanity in the night, but Mat held them back again. It's easier now Demandred got eaten by that badger he infiltrated in his camp.

Mat is ready with the Horn, in his tent Tuon is still fussing over which dress she should wear to go see Artur Hawkwing. Egwene and the WO enter their awake-asleep state. Perrin and the wolves have hunted the Shadow in TAR all night. Nynaeve and Moiraine stand ready with Callandor. Elayne, Min, and Aviendha are saying goodbye. Alivia and Rand Travel to SG (with or without the dagger hiding from the Shadow). There Alivia unravels all the OP protections and pierce Rand's side. Moridin and SH exit from the Pit of Doom. "I told Aviendha with the bond this dagger wouldn't work". Alivia fights valiantly but dies.

At Light HQ, Egwene and/or the WO has a new, far more explicit Dream about the Dying Man, sees the Dark Hand reaching for him and all light dying if the hand touches him. She rises in alarm. "Nynaeve, he must not die, the Dark One will reach for his soul!"

But it is too late. Aviendha, Elayne and Min suddenly feel Rand's pain. In chaos, forces Travels to find Rand at SG. Egwene goes with Rand's women and because of the bond they find Rand first. Nynaeve seems to have gotten lost. Delving. Rand isn't dead. Reality just isn't the same there, Egwene doesn't manage to re open a gateway on the same spot she exited from, it doesn't seem possible to learn the ground either, and there's no time. She opens a Skimming gateway - with her usual boat as skimming platform. On it, the three women(Egwene's presence is represented in the prophecies as the boat itself. Elayne delves Rand again, the bond has so faded it might be just a memory of it. She can't sense any life. Rand isn't dead, but they all think he is. He is dead (to them), yet lives.

Through Moridin, SH is still holding the bond, but he's barely holding to Rand, and Moridin's fast dying. SH is sensing around for a body for transmigration and can't find a suitable one. If only Graendal had survived longer his ministrations... Moridin must hold, al'Thor must die first.

At Light HQ Nyaneve (and Flinn?) try to Heal Rand. People all around are totally confused. Some around the funeral pyre, on which the Dragon's old body was to be burned, awaiting his return are those rejoicing that with Rand's death, salvation is coming soon. Soon the Dragon will return from the grave and go deal the final blow to the Shadow. Others start to howl as they realize something went horribly wrong.

At SG dawn breaks, and Moridin agonizes and dies. At Light HQ, dawn breaks and Nyaneve gives up. "He's dead, it's over". The race in TAR begins.

Aviendha, Min and Elayne stand around the funeral pyre in front of Dragonmount, the people stand back in respect.

The pyre is lit.

Then in a flash of Light, Rand re enters the world from TAR, his naked body shows no wound on his side, he has two hands again. Elayne proceeds with the triple bonding. Rand wakes. "Couldn't you have fetched me some smallclothes first? No male nudity, remember?".

As the eclipse starts, Rand with Moiraine and Nynaeve enter the Pit of Doom with Callandor...

As they exit, as light returns with the end of the eclipse on the Feast of All Souls' Salvation, the Fourth Age is born. At Light HQ, Elayne's twins are born.

Outside Egwene yells at Gawyn who stepped again on her toes while jumping around telling everyone he's an uncle. Some things even a new Age can't change.

----

Anyway, it's just a scenario using the concepts that's no more convoluted than the build up to the Cleansing, where the principles involved were barely touched on in detail.


How do you feel about the Broken Wolf? I think it is connected to Egwene's dream about the pyre by the emotions expressed at Rand's death:


Hmmm, I'll try to summarize, but you don't know my opinions of Dark Prophecies, so that may be hard.

BS' "Aes Sedai answers". DP are as valid as LP. The two aren't mutually exclusive so that one must fail if the other doesn't.

Fine.

If DP come from Foretelling, they are absolute, and short of a failure in the Pattern, they will come true,only the how and when are still variable.

But pratically speaking, how could Moridin have a collection of Dark Foretelling from, mostly, the third Age? So DF who foretell have Dark Foretelling. So far so good, but that would forcibly be Black Ajah, and Aes Sedai don't control their Foretelling talent. It happens anywhere, and often they don't realize it. How the heck would Ishamael would end up as the sole depository of those Foretelling? Why would there be Foretelling that are openly favourable to Shai'tan, revere him and all, when those of the Light are neutral?

That Shai'tan reading the Pattern is the source of the DP doesn't work so well thematically, not when Brandon says they are valid. Father of Lies, nuff said.

So what's left?

Dark Prophecies are Ishamael's Dreams. They are as valid as any of the Light's True Dreams. Like the Light's Dreams, however, they are strong possibilities, not absolute like Foretelling or Viewing. And they are highly subject to interpretation, all the more because Ishamael, want it or not, writes them down as he perceived the Dream, whatever escaped him in it, whatever he misinterprets, will end up in the written prophecy. It's filtered Dreams, so some "corruption" in them is extremely likely.


Why do they sound like Foretelling? Because they are written down in the Old Tongue by Ishamael from his own Dreams, a very subtle philosopher, once a revered author, and an excellent propagandist. Most of those "prophecies" he kept for his own use. Some of them he leaks to the Light as "threat"/propaganda, and their fulfillment built their reputation. If we look at the TGH one: Lanfear's general intent was highly predictable for Ishamael, Isam was already a reality, the Seanchan already landing. Ishamel really took "huge risks" to string together into verses of DP these True Dreams. I'm betting this is typical of the DP he ever leaked: low risk ones, whose certainty was very high.

For the rest, Ishamael seems to use Dark Prophecies occasionally as propaganda with the DF. The fact they're sometimes useful for "outside consumption" explains why Ishamael bothers to describe his Dreams in poetic language, and always with that pro Shadow angle, and with all the proper reverence for the Great Lord and Scorn for the Light.

So Broken Wolf?

Early on, Ishamael clearly had problems trying to figure out if Perrin, Mat or Rand would turn to be the Dragon.

I think he's had several Dreams about those three, probably long before he met them. And I think he never saw coming that there would be a triad. In his mind, Broken Wolf, Trickster, Fisher.. once they were all images for TDR. To him they all became part of the common archetypes from his Dreams. And we know well how tricky this can get: Egwene often don't recognize anyone specific. Sometime the people have distinctive or archetypal elements, sometime they don't have that and it's all in how you feel about them. "this man is very important"

And I think this is what happened: Ishamael had his own version of Egwene's Dying Man dream, and the face of the man he couldn't see, but he sensed the man was very important and rather than wisely write down as someone might that "A Man I don't recognize and with no disctinctive sign, but I think he may be the Broken Wolf again", because he wrote down his dreams in something like High Chant, because for a long time he didn't realize he wasn't dreaming about one man but three disctint men, Ishamael screwed up. On another day, he may have written First Among Vermin, that day his hunch was that it was the Broken Wolf. It didn't matter, those dreams about the important man had all to be about TDR....

Ishamael did that for years, most likely. Then three ta'veren appeared.... Oops...

So the Broken Wolf is Ishamael's name for the Perrin archetype in his Dreams, but the Dream is the Dying Man one, and it's about Rand.

The Prophecy is as valid as one of the Light's, it is just a bit useless because Ishamael had not been more careful enough not to introduce so much noise, guess work and fluff in his descriptions of his Dreams.

I know you have believed for a long time that Egwene's skill in Tel'aran'rhiod would be important to the Last Battle, and I agree with you on that.

I've more or less abandonned ideas where her TAR skills would have a direct role in the endgame, that is I think Egwene's (the Dreamwalkers') final role may be tied to the Sounding of the Horn. That's the window of opportunity if TAR is to have a direct role somehow in the sealing of the Bore/defeat of the DO. But I'm not wed to that idea.


I doubt, however, that she will have much to do with Rand's resurrection. The series is littered with foreshadowings of Rand's resurrection, and Egwene is tied to exactly none of them (unless I am missing something), apparently quite purposefully.

I just disagree with the purpose itself.

Here's why: transmigration, seeking immortality, reversing death... it's all themes associated with Evil, the Shadow. It all comes from the fact the DO is taking a direct hand.

LTT had to accept Ilyena's death, get over it, to think of Ilyena's rebirths.

As his lost resort to prevent Min's death, Rand embraced the Dark One's power. A major failure on his part. This scene was foreshadowed notably in TDR, when Rand tried to Heal a dead child. That was strongly associated with "heresy" and insanity. It was both very sad and a little frightening.

Nynaeve is struggling to prevent Rand's death. It's not a good thing, it's just a lack of acceptance. One of her greatest triumphs was to accept that Lan might die. She did what she could for him, but stopped holding him back.

It was of course a theme in Perrin's storyline.

Mat cheated death. Rand did it using a weave which is Evil, in the sense that it destroys Creation and thus serves the Shadow in the end.

But Rand still has to die, for real. Thus all the foreshadowing about Nyaneve. But it's all a red herring, the whole theme suggests it is: if you wish to live forever, come back from the dead and so on... go serve the Shadow, the Light doesn't eat from that dish. Nynaeve has to accept she can't Heal the dead (and in fact, she does).

Egwene is, however, tied to Rand's death in several foreshadowings. The foreshadowing of the resurrection almost always involves Nynaeve, and often involves Elayne and Birgitte (even aside from the blatant parallel between Birgitte's situation and Rand's). Sometimes Min and Aviendha. But never Egwene. Even Egwene's dreams seem to reflect her not being in the loop on the resurrection

All true, but it's precisely the absence of foreshadowing. Call it "anti foreshadowing", if you wish.

So Jordan needs to kill Rand, and bring him back.

It will most likely be done on a variation on Birgitte. That would have been massively convoluted in a bad deus ex machina way if it happened out of nowhere, so Jordan introduced all the necessary exposition mid-series but never delved into what Moghedien has done. He had Elayne and co. bond Rand already, there's no "Elayne doesn't bond Rand because RJ is waiting for her to bond him to save him like she did to Birgitte".

The fact the Horn of Valere will be sounded also introduce a suspense element: Rand can also return with it, temporarily. He can live.. in a new life eventually.

There's no avoiding the fact many readers will have this option of Rand coming back like Birgitte was "born" in mind, but RJ did what he could to distract us, like those throwaway lines about Nynaeve not being happy until she healed someone three day dead - a straight reference to Christian ressurection.

And he's done something else: he very purposefully kept Egwene at arm's length from these matters. He went out of his way so Nynaeve and Elayne kept her secrets from Egwene. Why? Because Egwene couldn't learn the extent of Moghedien's powers in TAR. It came very close, when Egwene decided enough was enough and she would not longer pretend Birgitte didn't exist... but Egwene chose to respect the secrets beyond that, and didn't ask questions.

She would have asked Moghedien straight out to explain if she had known in time what she did to Birgitte.... Not only that, but Egwene being Egwene, she would have given the matter much thought until she puzzled out how to do it. And she would have started to look for the Heroes. She would not have tested it, of course, but the intellectual curiosity would have been there, and as usual with Egwene, would have remained present until she puzzled it out and moved on.

Even now, what exactly happened to Birgitte is a mystery for Egwene, but Jordan made sure to put here and there little reminders of her curiosity. Elayne's "mysterious" warder she's sure to have seen in TAR with her once etc. It still grates Egwene a bit that Birgitte insisted to keep her out of the loop.

And that for me is "anti foreshadowing". I'm pretty sure.

And then, more classic foreshadowing. Egwene is well established as very creative in TAR, exploring areas beyond what the WO taught. She also escaped a complex folding of TAR by Moghedien without even noticing...

And again more classic foreshadowing: Egwene is not afraid to break some rules in TAR, if necessity requires it. The WO are ultra conservative, Egwene isn't. Nyaneve's TAR skills are minimal. She wouldn't know where to even begin to figure out what Moghedien did.

And I think that's how Jordan hid the fact it's Egwene who will accomplish the deed to bring back Rand. He couldn't foreshadow it more than that, he would have been giving us the last key.

The Out of TAR return bypass all the problems linked to real ressurection. It's devoid of the motifs attached to the Shadow. It has limits, as Moghedien failed at what she truly intended. Rand is also One with Creation, and in death he would be alive in TAR anyway. The Lightsiders are merely displacing him from where he is to where he must be in the Pattern. Small "sin", really.

But we have to be wary of Jordan's foreshadowing, especially the overt ones pretending to be subtle ones à la Nynaeve being linked to Rand's "ressurection" as we both of us well know. We've fallen for his traps many times. He was really the foreshadowing master, including master of deception and red herring.

Gawyn's foreshadowed clash with Rand. RJ managed to fool most of us there. First, the real foreshadowing was about him killing his teachers, then bumping into Bryne. Then, his clash was with Egwene, totally unexpected by most. We never saw coming his rescue of her would turn into a clash. And if someone told you before TGS that Siuan and Bryne would rescue Egwene, that it was when if they split they'd both die, and that Gawyn was involved in that viewing... we would have said "there's really no foreshadowing for any of this. Gawyn is foreshadowed as rescuing Egwene, nothing points to Siuan or Bryne or Gawyn getting involved again with either." And yet...

Then there was the "everything points to Nynaeve seeking to learn all she could from Semirhage", this time she won't fail as she's done with Moghedien (that one I was right about, I argued massively against it for the thematic conflict involved, and I was right. Nynaeve wasn't even tempted.)

And so much more cases like this... we can't even trust subtle foreshadowing with RJ... he's too clever and he thought us clever, so he didn't hesitate to put deception/red herrings even there! There's a ton of fake-foreshadowing in the series, what's special about it is that with most writers we would just be imagining things, but with RJ we can pretty much trust that for most of those little games and deceptions, he put them there on purpose.

So I'm not convinced apparent absence of foreshadowing is a valid point against Egwene doing the deed. It's how RJ worked to make sure to keep her at arm's length from the whole Birgitte matter and that whole area of TAR skills that attracted my attention. He purposefully also kept her well away from Lanfear/Moghedien's TAR skills in general, merely hinted that she instinctively managed to escape a trap of Moghedien, so her raw talent is great.

Slayer is another RJ kept Egwene away from. And the wolves' foreshadowing is very far in the past, a mere mention by Elyas in EOTW that Perrin they wanted to come with them, but that they would also accept that Egwene came too if he wished. That put Egwene in a fairly exclusive list of non-wolfbrothers the wolves have shown tolerance to, like Rand, Faile.

Egwene has been remotely involved with Slayer, remotely involved with Moghedien, remotely involved with the wolves, very remotely involved with Moridin/Ba'alzamon, and just a bit more directly involved with Lanfear. And yet, she's the main TAR character.

in her dream of Logain, the body falls apart like a paper puppet

I've long argued this has nothing to do with Rand's death. Rand is but a figurehead at the BT - a paper leader, absent. Logain took the lead of the lightsiders there for real. I'm undecided if this dream is already fulfilled or not. It might refer to an upcoming more official takeover of the leadership, but I don't rule out the possibility it's fulfilled or ongoing, in the story arc where the Asha'man gathered to Logain in COT, and his laughing and stepping over Rand would be a reference to his arrogance and the little pissing contest the two of them had runnign for a while. That's not resolved incidentally. Logain is loyal, but not a big fan of Rand. There's a straight Barid Bel Medar parallel there, the same as with Taim. But despite RJ's efforts, it seems obvious Logain will eventually get over that and remain loyal, by putting the common good above his personal feelings over Rand. Gawyn had this theme going a bit too, part hatred, part envy.

Of course, the Logain dream even contains a hint of Illusion, since touch is the weakness of the weave. This has fueled the faker theories for a long time, but just because they're wrong doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be Rand's body.

Indeed.

Agreed on that point, and mostly because of Min's viewings of Birgitte in Winter's Heart. Clearly she is still tied to Gaidal at least, which suggests that she is also still tied to the Horn. Min's knowledge in this area might be vital; she (unlike Egwene) has a foreshadowing to that effect (also in Winter's Heart), when she says that if Rand dies she will follow him and bring him back.

But of course, literally, she can't. Min's knowledge is very important. Her confidence is about to return fully, with Moiraine. I get the feeling Min is about to lose some of her often misplaced caution/discretion. It's good and not good, because RJ told us the very recent viewings were not 100% reliable, the old ones remain reliable. However, the characters don't know this, and possible mistakes have been averted because Min has been very cautious, keeping "too depressing" viewings from Rand and to others, all because Min thinks she has had one failed Viewing. I dread to think what someone like Elayne could do if one of Min's "unreliable" viewings concerned her! It could be disastrous... But the viewing of Birgitte is important - and it's so sad it would have put Birgitte's mind at rest if Min had shared it... What makes me believe is important is the fact that it destroyed the whole "Birgitte has lost Gaidal" angle. We see her suffer from it, and it's still a bit sad, but now we sympathize rather than emphatized, because we know Birgitte's wrong. So... I very much doubt the purpose of the viewing was to put that to rest, and if RJ chose to put an end to that so early, it was likely part of his scheme to keep most of the exposition related to Birgitte matters as far away from the finale as possible... The whole "but Rand, if we tear you out of TAR, we lose the Wheel one of the Heroes, the most important Hero, and we might put all the Ages at risk"... which may very well originate from Moiraine, who's the series' little Miss "The Wheel Weaves as the Wheel Wills". Prophecies and Moiraine never worked so well... she's missed the Wolf-King and the verse about Mat, which other AS did not. Her one attempt at interpretation in Tear was disastrous. And in general Moiraine is extremely wary of putting prophecies to the test. What Elayne did, Moiraine wouldn't have done. But Elayne is to an extent right. Min's Viewing is absolute and it's one of the few for which interpretation is very straightforward. Elayne forced the Wheel, put pressure on the Pattern. She obtained near-ta'veren effects: a series of amazing coincidences, with a balance effect, between good and bad unforeseen consequences and several dominoes falling into place unexpectedly to keep her alive. Doing that also put in motion a chain reaction which untied the knot in Caemlyn. Her second attempt is less succesful.. or so it seems. It made her give Mat his medallion back, and she ended up sending armies to the borders... which could simply mean that between those and the ones brought to Merrilor, she gave Caemlyn to the Shadow but save Andor's armies for TG. Not necessarily a bad bargain, if you're not a Caemlyner civilian.

One significant Viewing (or rather a group of those) Min should have shared are those pointing to so many civilian deaths in Tear. It sounds like the Shadow will move to seize humanity's fortresses.


And Min's viewings indicate that Birgitte's relationship to Gaidal has already been permanently altered, so her return to Tel'aran'rhiod seems unlikely.

With the caveat that if Birgitte dies now, she may return at any time younger than Gaidal. I agree however the Viewing suggests that this life is important, because it's the one that will introduce a new dynamic, with Birgitte much older than Gaidal. It's not a dynamic the Wheel used before (or Birgitte forgot, but I doubt it). As RJ said once, Legends change. The Wheel is non-sentient, it works through input-feedback. Circumstances will make it so Gaidal and Birgitte will experience a new possible dynamic, so the Wheel will collect data and use it at need from now on. Thats speaks for Birgitte not dying in TG, indeed. It still have this hunch Olver will lead Birgitte to baby Gaidal. He's in Caemlyn, IMO. He will be a refugee from the battle.

My "big hope" (aka it's more my favourite idea, not something I see foreshadowing for) for Olver is that RJ intended to trap him in Caemlyn after it falls to the Shadow, then use Olver as a POV character in there during the occupation (with a possible small role in the liberation). Either in hiding with other children he's saved (Olver the mini-hero), or more gruesomely in some prisoner camp (aka Trolloc food store). But he'll survive. It's from his entourage I would like Gaidal to show up. That would explain the red herring, but also give it a nice twist that it wasn't only a red herring either.

And this is why he gets to finally go home when it's all done (tons of foreshadowing there) and why he gets three wives. Or something. ;)

Home: definitely. Foreshadowing: yes, plenty. But there's one other thing, and it's that Rand is based so much on RJ's experience as a soldier, the Iceman, etc. RJ surmounted all this, he's a veteran who managed to find his place back in society etc. and find laughters and tears again. I have a really hard time imagining RJ ending this in tragedy. The Epiphany took care of some of that for sure, but still... I think RJ would have seen Rand not coming back to have a real life as a something of a defeat. A real life at last is like.. his reward.

We have to keep in mind one thing: all the Arturian parallels are taken care of. Battle of Caemlyn, three in a boat, TV, Rand "death that isn't a death but is a death" etc. The endgame storyline doesn't belong in the Arturian myth (a few elements are Arturian like Callandor, the plot itself isn't). Dark One, Bore etc. That all belong with other mythologies, traditions and even religions. That makes me think Rand's death will be the nod to the Arturian myth, but then RJ will move beyond its ending. Arthuriana ends with Arthur dying or in a magical sleep (and yes, when he dies again Rand will go in that sleep in TAR), but Rand won't.

I just don't know "home" will be the Two Rivers. Tam's farm is a possibility. Remote, the EFers won't be a bother.

And RJ did return to the Two Rivers.. it increases the odds, I would say.

But home is also where the heart is. *shrug*. I have no idea how RJ has resolved the whole three wives connundrum! Rand can move around for visits to Elayne, and to Aviendha (the big wildcard... will the Aiel be neo-da'shain after all.. will Aviendha be part of the system, so in Tar Valon, or a leader among the people and so.. it could be anywhere). But I'd be surprised to see Elayne, Min and Aviendha living with Rand in a shack in the middle of the woods... It's only for Min that would be a funny ending. Min stuck raising sheep, that's very winner and so much in the vein of ironic humour RJ loved. The other two in the woods, not so funny.

But what of the children? Oh well...

Crispin's Crispian
05-16-2012, 10:14 AM
That was a really long post. I read about 2/3 of it but forgive me because I'll have to come back for more later.

In my mind, Terez is right about Slayer but not in the way you're suggesting (template soul-twin thingy). He's an assassin, and he was created to kill Rand in Tel'aran'rhiod after Rand's physical death in the real world. Just like wolves, I believe that when Heroes die in Tel'aran'rhiod they are dead forever. No reincarnation, no Horn--nothing. By killing Rand's soul there, the Dark One guarantees an eventual victory.

Moreover, this is going to play out according to a specific timeline, because Rand actually needs to seal the Bore in Tel'aran'rhiod--one way or another. The events at Falme were a hint, because once the Horn was blown the Heroes seemed to open up a pocket of the Dream World to bend the Pattern according to their will.

My theory is that Rand will use this merger of reality and Tel'aran'rhiod to repair the Pattern and reseal the Dark One. Remember, per the Ael'finn, Rand has to die not only to live but also to win the Last Battle. Moridin knows this via the Dark One, so the ultimate plan is to destroy the Dragon utterly after that point.

"A great many plans will have to be relaid, if you let yourself be killed now."

Terez
05-17-2012, 03:00 AM
Plan A was to convince Rand to come to the Shadow. That always seemed preferable to the Shadow, for reasons we still don't fully understand, even if some of the advantages are fairly obvious. I'll leave it at that, as it's plan B that's my topic.

Plan A seems more and more unlikely to succeed, though by the beginning of TGS hopes were somewhat rekindled for a while. The Epiphany seems to have destroyed plan A, short of turning a captured Rand to the Shadow, a method which may or not work on Rand post-Epiphany)
I'm not so sure the epiphany destroyed plan A. I see Rand as having won the battle against himself on Dragonmount. While that battle against himself certainly made it easier for Moridin to influence him, I still think it was mostly a separate battle. Rand came to terms the part of himself that was Lews Therin, and found himself with some severely suicidal tendencies (which he had been suppressing before then, with less and less success, as we saw in KOD "Vows"). He conquered that, and somehow managed to ward his own brain from the taint in the process, but the indications in TOM are that the bond between Rand and Moridin still exists, and that Rand seems unaware of that fact, or at least unaware of the implications. With the subtlety of the bond between them in mind, going back to the thoughts of the Creator in COT, and giving Brandon a little bit of credit for subtlety, the indications are that the bond is still a danger to him even post epiphany. Egwene wonders when Rand started engaging in 'idle philosophy'. I doubt the use of the word was coincidental, and Lews Therin never 'went on' about the Creator or anything like that. She also believes that there is a part of Rand that knows he shouldn't break the seals, and that that's why he told her—so that she could stop him.

The signs also seem to indicate at this point that the bond won't be particularly dangerous to him until he goes to Shayol Ghul, so as you say, maybe our theories are not all that far apart.

Shai'tan ordered the Cleansing to be opposed. Moridin passed on his orders, but did not volunteer the information that the order not to kill Rand was temporarily lifted. He only did it with apparent reluctance when Demandred brought it up.
I've never thought of it quite like that before, in terms of passing on the orders. I only thought of it as Moridin being wary of the obvious problems for him, but still fairly confident that no one would actually manage to kill Rand.

I see Slayer as Moridin-Rand 1.0. A beta-test.
I have thought of it that way before, too. It frustrates me that we have so little in the way of reliable clues as to the nature of their bond; the Slayer bond certainly seems to be the type of thing that you would think can only be done at Shayol Ghul. But the bond between Rand and Ishamael was foreshadowed in TEOTW, and Slayer was introduced in TGH (and foreshadowed in TEOTW), so it's definitely easy to believe that the bond goes back a lot further back than Shadar Logoth. It's easy to see the bond only being aggravated by the balefire incident, in a way that made the bond obvious to Rand, where before it was something that would have crept up on him much more stealthily (not that Rand's knowledge of the bond seems to have done him much good).

One of my idle theories is that Luc Mantear was the latest incarnation of an unknown Hero of the Horn (another brother-sister combo with Tigraine? Let's not get further into that) and that the fact Luc, while dead, can be alive in TAR originates from this fact (it doesn't have to, I just choose to think it's linked).
It's an interesting idea. Moghedien apparently had the ability to rip out Heroes in the Age of Legends, so it's not unbelievable that Ishamael knew of it and tested that on Luc and Isam. I've always disliked the fact that Slayer's abilities in Tel'aran'rhiod were so unexplained.

I think Luc was "bonded" to Isam then killed in controlled conditions. I think if we could puzzle out how the Horn of Valere worked, perhaps we could understand what lets Slayer enter and exit TAR at will (it can't really be related to Moghedien's trick followed by a bonding of the two, it wouldn't explain why Luc-Isam share a body and can alternate between two appearances using TAR). But I will suggest this: I believe Slayer became "whole" only after the Horn was sounded in TGH, and by that I suggest until then the bond between them existed, but Isam was in the real world, unable to enter TAR at will, and Luc was dead and TAR-bound. The sounding of the Horn somehow fused them and the combo for mysterious reasons only more exposition about the Horn's working would let us puzzle out at this point, was able to retain the ability to come in/out of TAR and to retain Luc's body after re entering the real world (where a bond to Isam keeps him alive) or Isam's, indifferently. It's like Birgitte one might say, but it's also like the Heroes re-entering the real world in what appears to be "in the flesh" when the Horn is sounded.
This seems very outlandish at first read, but on second it begins to make more sense, if for no other reason than the timing of it all. Part of the reason I've considered the beta test idea before is the connection between the wording in "Blood Calls Blood" (one did live, and one did die, but both are) to the wording in Min's viewing (one dies, and the other doesn't).

If you've followed me so far, I'm suggesting the bond between Luc and Isam held after Luc's death and thus I open the door to the possibility Rand's death may not be enough to sever his bond to Moridin, that Rand's death at the moment would simply merge them into the combo for which Isam-Luc were the template. It's an open question if killing Isam would sever his bond to Luc, if killing Moridin would sever the bond to Rand.
Well, it has to be severed somehow. It would make sense for Rand to die, and then the bond be truly severed with Moridin's death some time before Rand is resurrected. And while it makes sense by your theory that Rand would not be available for resurrection until Moridin was killed, I still think that part of Slayer's purpose, as an assassin, is to kill Rand permanently in Tel'aran'rhiod. And I can't help but think that Moridin's mindtraps were specifically placed with that level of the battle in mind.

I do tend to think that the Shadow's ultimate objective here is for Rand (whether it's truly him or only his body) to cause all the destruction we keep hearing about—world-breaking things, like earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, etc., maybe mass killings—but I've never considered before that Rand's body could be killed while Moridin retained the ability to change his identity like Slayer. It's not that he couldn't easily do the same thing with Illusion, but maybe with the Slayer-type merge he can do things like...maintain the bond with the women after Rand's death? Maintain the bond with the ta'veren? I don't know. I still tend to see the merge as preceding the death of either.

Which leads me to the famous bond. I've long believed it's not "an accident". I rather believe it involves two aspects. The first step was accomplished by Ishamael on orders from Shai'tan. It was accomplished at Falme, with the TP wound. This is like an anchor, which in time has attached itself to Rand's soul.
I've seen that argued before, and I've argued that it might have been in TDR as well, since Callandor apparently makes him vulnerable (that idea came from the 'light is held before the infinite maw' verse). But there's nothing in the text to really suggest that anything happened there. The mental degradation is a little more obvious over the course of TDR.

If that is correct, the way this bond may now be cut becomes more obvious. Saidin/Saidar keep the SL Taint from touching the TP wound in Rand's body. If the OP was removed, the TP/SL wounds would destroy each other, severing the bond from its anchor. Of course, that would most likely result in Rand's death - as it's long been foreshadowed these wounds may kill him one day.
It was my understanding that Flinn warded the wounds away from Rand, but not from each other. It was his hope that they would continue to fight each other. As for the foreshadowing, I see a bit of Rand vs Gawyn in it, from a reverse-engineered Arthurian perspective.

I'll start at a point in AMOL when Rand has already figured out he cannot attempt to seal the Bore without severing first his bond to Moridin.
I don't believe that Rand will figure that out. The main reason I don't believe he will figure it out is because the Whelan cover (along with Irene's and Whelan's comments on the eclipse) seem to suggest that the darkest hour will follow Rand's actions there. It may be that some part of himself remains in that time of darkness (Rand turned to the Shadow, or consumed by Moridin), and he somehow manages to communicate to his friends that he must be killed, or whatever. But the signs don't indicate that he will manage to prevent it. The only exception I can think of is that he manages to spit out everything important to Moiraine so that she can guide him like a young shepherd boy again, but even that seems somewhat pat. Will she balefire him in the Pit of Doom?

So he has the Finn's riddle to help. The World as One part may be solved by then.
Nicola's Foretelling seems to suggest that it has not been solved at the time of his death, but I think that is a mostly separate issue.

Then in a flash of Light, Rand re enters the world from TAR, his naked body shows no wound on his side, he has two hands again. Elayne proceeds with the triple bonding. Rand wakes. "Couldn't you have fetched me some smallclothes first? No male nudity, remember?".
I still think that the boat scene depicts the moment when Rand is ripped out, because it is the most eloquent explanation for the presence of the three women and the context. The Skimming platform idea is really clever, but to me it has always seemed just a little bit clunky. I think that's why the Sea Folk angle appeals to me; he's the Coramoor for one reason or another, and Shalon has good sun foreshadowing, and her sister is going to become Mistress of the Ships somehow...and the Sea Folk believe everything important should be done on the water. Perhaps resurrection more than anything. There might even be two clues to what the Coramoor might be:

Cor Darei=Night Spears
Corenne=The Return

The only problem I can see is that it should be more difficult to rip him out onto a boat, in the same way it's difficult to make a gateway to a boat. But perhaps we have an anticipation of that in KOD. If it's an actual boat on water, then I wonder about the location of it. Thematically I like the Waterwood most for obvious reasons; this is where he always dreamed of swimming with his harem, when he was still tied to Egwene. It also fits with the Tree of Life imagery from the Perun stories (http://perun.ca/Stories.aspx), the live water and the dead water, the three women (who see past, present, and future), and decide the fate of all things (Valkyries). The dead water can make mutilated bodies whole, but only the live water can resurrect the dead hero. The two streams flow from the Tree of Life (represented in conjunction with the Dark Prophecy in TGH), and they meet at the Waterwood.

It's hard to see how all that comes together, but there's plenty of foreshadowing for the Sea Folk having an important role to play, and obviously we know essentially nothing about it. The Waterwood seems a good place to hide. I've even wondered if Rand would ride down the Manetherendrelle to Illian, but that seems a little far-fetched. ;)

As the eclipse starts, Rand with Moiraine and Nynaeve enter the Pit of Doom with Callandor...
The reason I have difficulty with this scenario is the fact that all the foreshadowing and prophecy about the darkness suggests that it is a bad thing. The first dawn is for mourning, and it has to go dark before it can dawn again. I don't believe that the eclipse fulfills 'twice dawns', but it makes more sense as a beginning than as an end. We have foreshadowing that Rand will be dead for three days, and foreshadowing that the sun will rise two days late, that it will go dark at noon and rise at midnight, that it will be held down at dawn. And the ancient Shienaran Welcome (probably a Borderland ritual) says the shadow at noon is what they guard against, from rising sun to rising sun.

If DP come from Foretelling, they are absolute, and short of a failure in the Pattern, they will come true,only the how and when are still variable.

But pratically speaking, how could Moridin have a collection of Dark Foretelling from, mostly, the third Age?
I'm guessing that, in his times of freedom, he sought out Darkfriends with Foretelling ability. He might have even turned Lightfriends with the ability. He's been active enough in the Third Age that I don't find it particularly unbelievable, especially since there seems to have been a rash of Foretelling during the Breaking itself, and we know he was free during at least some of those years, perhaps more regularly than we have been led to believe.

That Shai'tan reading the Pattern is the source of the DP doesn't work so well thematically, not when Brandon says they are valid. Father of Lies, nuff said.
Just to note, Brandon might have been the first to say straight out that they are valid, but he wasn't the first to suggest it. Moiraine thought that Shadow prophecies had a way of coming true the same as Light prophecies, way back in TGH, and RJ always seemed to take it for granted that those prophecies were valid.

Dark Prophecies are Ishamael's Dreams.
I did consider that possibility, but I really don't see any reason to disbelieve what he said about the source of those prophecies: "The women and men who spoke these were isolated and held alone." We know he was free for a number of years during the Breaking, when most of the KC was given. It also reminded me of something Brandon did in TWOK, which led me to believe that he conjured that particular detail (which would probably mean that he thinks of the prophecy as a Foretelling). I can see better reason for him to lie about agreeing with Graendal's interpretation of it.

But Rand still has to die, for real. Thus all the foreshadowing about Nyaneve. But it's all a red herring, the whole theme suggests it is: if you wish to live forever, come back from the dead and so on... go serve the Shadow, the Light doesn't eat from that dish. Nynaeve has to accept she can't Heal the dead (and in fact, she does).
Well, sure, she's already accepted it. But that does not mean that she won't use it if the Pattern leaves her no other choice, and it's certainly headed that way (hence the Pattern giving her the weapons she needs).

...he very purposefully kept Egwene at arm's length from these matters. He went out of his way so Nynaeve and Elayne kept her secrets from Egwene. Why? Because Egwene couldn't learn the extent of Moghedien's powers in TAR. It came very close, when Egwene decided enough was enough and she would not longer pretend Birgitte didn't exist... but Egwene chose to respect the secrets beyond that, and didn't ask questions.
You have a point from the plot perspective, but it doesn't make sense from a foreshadowing perspective, especially when most of the foreshadowing I'm talking about is the subtle, innocent kind that goes over the average reader's head, and even goes over our heads sometimes. Sure, the Birgitte element is blatant foreshadowing, buried in all sorts of hard-driven impressions about the tragic nature of her rebirth, with little attention given to the fact that she was essentially raised from the dead. (The timing was inconvenient.) But Egwene could have easily been slipped under the surface, particularly in the later books when RJ should have known we were missing all the clues he'd left in books years before.

I did find one foreshadowing that might tie Egwene to the resurrection (and Moiraine for that matter, another rare tie to the resurrection in foreshadowing):

For a moment she stared at Moiraine, perplexed. The Aes Sedai had done as Rand told her? Without protest? That was like one of the Wise Ones obeying, or the sun rising at midnight. She had heard about the attack, of course; rumors about giant dogs that left footprints on stone had been all over this morning. She could not see what that could have to do with this, but aside from the news of the Shaido it was the only new thing she knew of, and not enough to produce this reaction. Nothing could produce it, that she could think of. Doubtless Moiraine would tell her it was none of her concern, but one way or another she would worry it out. She did not like not understanding things.
There is another one in the same book with Aviendha, who doesn't get quite as much foreshadowing as even Min:

"Where are my clothes, Aviendha?"

"You are only flesh!"

"My clothes?"

"Remember your toh, Rand al'Thor. If I can remember ji'e'toh, so can you." That seemed a strange thing to say; the sun would rise at midnight before she forgot the smallest scrap of ji'e'toh.

"If you keep on like this," he said with a smile, "I will begin thinking you care for me."
More from the same book (RJ liked to cluster foreshadowings)...this one from the chapter where Birgitte is ripped out:
"I am trying to hold my temper," Nynaeve muttered. Everybody complained about her temper, and now that she was trying to control it, Elayne complained about that! It was not that she was fool enough to be taken in by his compliments. She certainly was not so big a fool as that. Elayne laughed at her, and she scowled.

"Oh, Nynaeve. 'You cannot hold the sun down at dawn.' Lini could have been thinking of you."
The best foreshadowing is when he ties it all together with the legend of Boann and the Dagda in chapters 49 and 50. Lots of resurrection foreshadowing in TFOH, while you get mostly death foreshadowing in LOC. Rand finally reveals what the Aelfinn told him (if you would live, you must die), Nicola gives her 'dead yet lives' foretelling (in the presence of Elayne and Nynaeve, all present in "To Boannda"), which is important enough to be reinforced by a dream from the Wise Ones (delivered to Rand from Aviendha). And then Gawyn's 'the sun rises two days late' and Egwene's 'as darkness fits the sun' (which again seems to speak to the death aspect more than the resurrection aspect). It seems like a big cluster of foreshadowing about the sun aspect in general, the biggest since TGH.

But in trying to work out the Arthurian nature of Rand's death, I haven't been able to settle on a really solid idea of Egwene's role. I tend to think that she won't be overtly responsible for it, and that Gawyn will have more to do with it than she will. But there are several clues that Rand will need someone to kill him, and most of them center around Egwene. Rand's Portal Stone experiences and Egwene's Accepted test, early in the series, though Egwene didn't think she could bring herself to kill him (and when Rand saw her doing it, she had tears in her eyes, though he thanked her as he died). Clearly it's an unlikely path for Egwene. It seems even more unlikely for Nynaeve. Gawyn and Moiraine are a different story, not even taking into consideration the fact that they are the only Lightsiders who make good Mordred parallels.

So I can see Egwene being involved in Rand's death only through Gawyn, and in that case I can see her being involved in his resurrection as a redemption aspect. While I think she is fated to suffer from Gawyn's death (though Brandon has tried to Aes Sedai his way around that, I think, by implying (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=2#5) that he would live), I still think she is set up to be important, so there has to be a conflict aspect and a redemption aspect. I've liked the idea for a while now that she would have to help clean up Rand's mess with the broken seals, but I suppose that could be fulfilled through an involvement in the resurrection, so long as it's Nynaeve who actually does the deed.

And that for me is "anti foreshadowing". I'm pretty sure.
Again, you might be right, but you'd think he could have slipped her into the innocent stuff a little more often.

Nyaneve's TAR skills are minimal. She wouldn't know where to even begin to figure out what Moghedien did.
I don't know that it's really accurate to say her skills there are minimal. She's been doing it for a while now, and skill in Tel'aran'rhiod is mostly about strength of will. Nynaeve has enough of that to make up for any presumed lack of skill. For example, the foreshadowing about Nynaeve healing someone 3 days dead is from LOC 7, "A Matter of Thought". The name of the chapter directly references the fact that reality can be changed in Tel'aran'rhiod with only thoughts, and it centers around the episode where the Aes Sedai ran into a nightmare and had serious trouble escaping. Elayne and Siuan were the most skilled of those present. Nynaeve was randomly sent off to search for Leane while all that was going on. Coincidence? I think, probably not. Coincidence that Nynaeve was taught Need while Egwene had to stand aside in TSR? Again, I think not. Egwene commented on Nynaeve's skill in TOM. Furthermore, Moghedien used the Power to rip out Birgitte, and if it was done with a weave of some kind, then we have no reason to believe that Nynaeve will not remember it, since we've been told several times that she only has to see a weave once to be able to duplicate it.

And I think that's how Jordan hid the fact it's Egwene who will accomplish the deed to bring back Rand. He couldn't foreshadow it more than that, he would have been giving us the last key.
What is it the key to, though? I think most people assume that Nynaeve will be able to do it, even if they don't begin to comprehend how she will do it.

But we have to be wary of Jordan's foreshadowing, especially the overt ones pretending to be subtle ones à la Nynaeve being linked to Rand's "ressurection" as we both of us well know. We've fallen for his traps many times. He was really the foreshadowing master, including master of deception and red herring.
Well, I don't think that there is anything in the series that has been foreshadowed as thickly and as subtly as Nynaeve's role in Rand's resurrection. Not that there are not blatant clues. There are certainly blatant foreshadowings of her 'healing' death, but the reader is led away from the idea that Rand will be ripped out like Birgitte, and most of the foreshadowing connecting Nynaeve to that in particular is subtle. That is, beyond Nynaeve's own redemption aspect, that she wasn't the one to figure out how to save Birgitte. She has the chance to make that up with Rand, and it seems like Egwene being involved would just diminish Nynaeve's entire arc. Others being involved would not have the same effect as Egwene (for example, Min or even Moiraine).

Gawyn's foreshadowed clash with Rand. RJ managed to fool most of us there.
Did he? I think most people assumed that the dreams involving Gawyn would be fulfilled in a way similar to the way they were fulfilled. There is still one unfulfilled dream, though. Until they marry, there is still a chance that Gawyn could die a violent death. I think most people assumed all the Gawyn dreams centered around one event, and in that, you might say RJ fooled all of us. Or Brandon did. But we will see. Perhaps Gawyn will have a relatively boring end; I just think it unlikely.

Gawyn is foreshadowed as rescuing Egwene, nothing points to Siuan or Bryne or Gawyn getting involved again with either." And yet...
Thematically I think Gawyn's role in Egwene's rescue was far more important. And I don't think her rescue involving Siuan and Bryne had anything to do with the dreams about Gawyn running, or any of that.

Then there was the "everything points to Nynaeve seeking to learn all she could from Semirhage", this time she won't fail as she's done with Moghedien (that one I was right about, I argued massively against it for the thematic conflict involved, and I was right. Nynaeve wasn't even tempted.)
She learned everything she needed to know about healing from Moghedien, without even trying. ;)

And so much more cases like this... we can't even trust subtle foreshadowing with RJ... he's too clever and he thought us clever, so he didn't hesitate to put deception/red herrings even there!
Well, I like to think that the red herrings have a certain feel to them. Certainly Alviarin was a red herring to detract from Verin. Nynaeve as a red herring to detract from Egwene's role does not seem to make much sense. If anything, Nynaeve needs to redress the balance, since it's swung too far in Egwene's favor. Siuan and Moiraine, for example, played the part in public, but treated each other as equals in private. Siuan needed that, and Egwene will need it too. I'm not one of those who blames Egwene for redressing the balance with Nynaeve, because Nynaeve really did tend to dismiss Egwene in times when she should have listened (and Egwene usually admitted at least to herself when Nynaeve was right). I just think Nynaeve needs her major triumph, and this is it, not just by the foreshadowing clues from the mystery-solving perspective, but by her themes.

Now Alivia...there is a nice RJ-style red herring, IMO. Why do I think she's a red herring? Because RJ needed something to detract from the Mordred parallels, for one thing. For another, there are no sacrificed themes. Alivia has reasons for being there other than being a red herring, like Olver, but she's even more shallowly developed than Olver. She's tossed in very randomly. Rand might believe that he will not die at Shayol Ghul if he does not take Alivia with him (and he would be wrong on some technicality that he missed).

There's a ton of fake-foreshadowing in the series...
I'm not so sure about this. The closest thing I can call to mind about fake foreshadowing is stuff like Thom's line about the Amyrlin marrying the LCC of the Whitecloaks. But even stuff like that is very rare (and technically, that one is still up in the air, despite the fact that Brandon seemed to find the idea amusing). When you get into the more abstract (as opposed to merely subtle) foreshadowing, then sure, you can read all sorts of fake foreshadowing into it, easily. But the Boann/Dagda foreshadowing in TFOH is very subtle yet very non-abstract foreshadowing. The parallels themselves are abstract in a sense, but they are still undeniable.

Logain is loyal, but not a big fan of Rand. There's a straight Barid Bel Medar parallel there, the same as with Taim.
Have you heard my loony theory that he's Guaire Amalasan reborn? Not all that clever, really, since he wanted it for an alias. But one of the things I've noted is that Logain never gave Rand the 'you're the one' speech like Taim did.

...despite RJ's efforts, it seems obvious Logain will eventually get over that and remain loyal, by putting the common good above his personal feelings over Rand. Gawyn had this theme going a bit too, part hatred, part envy.
I'm not sure that they're really comparable. I don't think Logain has come anywhere close to hating Rand like Gawyn did, and I think that Logain's feelings about Rand are pretty justified in comparison. He gets frustrated that Rand won't deal with Taim, and that he has to bypass Rand's authority to do anything about it, but I don't think he hates Rand or even envies him particularly much, for all he once thought he was the Dragon.

(re Min following Rand and bringing him back) But of course, literally, she can't.
Bringing Rand back is not as simple as ripping him out, though. If he were simply ripped out, he would just die again, and so Min (along with Elayne and Aviendha) is an important part of making sure that he does not, beyond her knowledge of Birgitte's remaining tie to the Wheel. Elayne is the more important to his resurrection if for no other reason than that she was the one who came up with the bond in the first place, but Min and Aviendha are also important. And technically, Min could go to Tel'aran'rhiod with the ring. There is a first time for everything, so she could help to bring Rand back in some way even if she can't rip him out herself.

But the viewing of Birgitte is important - and it's so sad it would have put Birgitte's mind at rest if Min had shared it...
Yeah, some of the really subtle (but not abstract) foreshadowing of the resurrection is when Elayne and Aviendha react to Rand being in danger at the Cleansing, and Birgitte is weeping over Gaidal, and so they sympathize with her...and Elayne thinks that she could not imagine what she would do if Rand died.

Prophecies and Moiraine never worked so well... she's missed the Wolf-King and the verse about Mat, which other AS did not.
Well, Verin might have sources unknown to Lightsiders, and I can't think of any other Aes Sedai who showed an awareness of that prophecy.

We have to keep in mind one thing: all the Arturian parallels are taken care of. Battle of Caemlyn, three in a boat, TV, Rand "death that isn't a death but is a death" etc. The endgame storyline doesn't belong in the Arturian myth (a few elements are Arturian like Callandor, the plot itself isn't).
I think the endgame was intended to be a nexus for the mythological parallels, partly because most of the stories RJ is working with had their most stark similarities in the 'last battle' type scenarios. The death of the hero, or the savior, etc. So while most of the parallels are indirect, and all of them are mixed and matched by the philosophy of reverse-engineering, I think we'll see a lot more of it in the final volume than we've seen thus far.

Dark One, Bore etc. That all belong with other mythologies, traditions and even religions. That makes me think Rand's death will be the nod to the Arturian myth, but then RJ will move beyond its ending. Arthuriana ends with Arthur dying or in a magical sleep (and yes, when he dies again Rand will go in that sleep in TAR), but Rand won't.
I remember reading somewhere an Arthurian myth where Arthur was sometimes spotted by travelers in a forest. I asked Linda about it, because I couldn't find it, and she said she thought it was a more modern version of the tale.

I just don't know "home" will be the Two Rivers.
It has to be, though. That's what Rand wants, and it's been repeated so many times that anywhere else wouldn't give the same level of reader satisfaction.

Tam's farm is a possibility. Remote, the EFers won't be a bother.
Tam's farm might be too close to the Quarry Road, which will no doubt gain more traffic as the years go on. But it was burned down, anyway, so deeper in the Westwood might work. My thought is that the Westwood will become something like the King's Forest, where only Perrin can hunt. Though I'm sure inverted wards would still be necessary.

But home is also where the heart is. *shrug*. I have no idea how RJ has resolved the whole three wives connundrum! Rand can move around for visits to Elayne, and to Aviendha (the big wildcard... will the Aiel be neo-da'shain after all.. will Aviendha be part of the system, so in Tar Valon, or a leader among the people and so.. it could be anywhere). But I'd be surprised to see Elayne, Min and Aviendha living with Rand in a shack in the middle of the woods... It's only for Min that would be a funny ending. Min stuck raising sheep, that's very winner and so much in the vein of ironic humour RJ loved. The other two in the woods, not so funny.
Yeah, I've been saying for a long time that he would live there with Min until she died, since we know that Elayne and Aviendha will live a lot longer (as long as Rand), and then Elayne and Aviendha would join him. That explains why they eventually disappeared in the future Aviendha saw. They can come for visits themselves while Min is still alive, without Rand having to go anywhere, and if he wants to get out into the world, he can always do an inverted Illusion weave and do just that. So maybe they will see the world together after Min dies (and maybe before too). I've had that feeling for a long time because Min gets to spend the most time with Rand, and it seems like there should be a reason for it. Her short lifespan explains it, and also gives a reason for Elayne's close bond with Aviendha.

But what of the children? Oh well...
I think the children will probably have to grow up fatherless. Unless Min has children, at which point it gets a little more complicated. That in itself is sad, but it's what happened in Aviendha's visions of the future, at least with her own children. Perhaps that will be part of what she changes, though.

Terez
05-17-2012, 03:29 AM
That was a really long post. I read about 2/3 of it but forgive me because I'll have to come back for more later.
It took me...what? Two days? To respond to it, lol. Rarely do I come across people more longwinded than I am, and usually it's Felix.

In my mind, Terez is right about Slayer but not in the way you're suggesting (template soul-twin thingy). He's an assassin, and he was created to kill Rand in Tel'aran'rhiod after Rand's physical death in the real world. Just like wolves, I believe that when Heroes die in Tel'aran'rhiod they are dead forever. No reincarnation, no Horn--nothing.
Birgitte said so.

By killing Rand's soul there, the Dark One guarantees an eventual victory.
Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal. Which will he choose? Which will he choose? What hand shelters? What hand slays?

Moreover, this is going to play out according to a specific timeline, because Rand actually needs to seal the Bore in Tel'aran'rhiod--one way or another. The events at Falme were a hint, because once the Horn was blown the Heroes seemed to open up a pocket of the Dream World to bend the Pattern according to their will.
I made this argument many years ago, before I believed Rand would be resurrected (which I started believing when I read TGS). I stopped making it partly because of the RJ quote where he says the Wheel stepped in at Falme, but it could be a way of referring to what the Heroes do. My argument then was that there has to be some kind of profound purpose for the creation of the Horn beyond what we saw at Falme, because Falme was not Tarmon Gai'don. But I resist the idea that Rand will be with them now because I like the potential for an empty tomb parallel, and it seems you can't have both.

Dom
05-17-2012, 07:20 AM
It took me...what? Two days? To respond to it, lol. Rarely do I come across people more longwinded than I am

lol! A short novel indeed.

I wrote various parts over a few days, I didn't realize I'd done a full post's worth in each session.

In my defense, that was in answer to one of yours. :P Some posters act on me like an angreal, but you're like Callandor (Haven't met a CK yet, thanks heaven!).

While I digest the new one, I'll address only one point:

Arthur in the woods.

That may well have made its way in modern tellings (of which I know very little, beside RJ's unorthodox one that is!). Only their author could tell of their source for this, or if it's a "new" spin they thought they were creating).

I'd have to check in my books, but this one is also folkloric however. There are tons of "non-canon" (ie: non-literary) Arthurian mentions in European folklore and sightings of Arthur in the woods (like, hunting with his dogs), after his "death" is one of those. They can be really hard to come accross, as they often appear only in works on Arthuriana, in research papers by scholars who did collect folktales or who studied/catalogued such collections. Most often, I only ever met them in books about folklore or as one-line references in tales that aren't about Arthur at all.

I vaguely remember it's the case for this one. It could be an amalgamation of different folk motifs (each used by RJ, incidentally): it derives from the sleeping heroes/magical sleep one, which is prominent in the Arthurian literary canon, but the one with the dogs amalgates it with the "ghost hunter" motif (RJ's Old Grim and the Dark Hunt), kind of a reassuring/benevolent spin on the ghost hunter, not the devil but just good old Arthur.

There are many regional "borrowings" as well. In Ireland, sightings in the woods may rather be associated to Finn MacCool - one of the great sources for some aspects of Mat - and in parts of Europe it may be Charlemagne.

The other well-known such folklore amalgamation (that I'm sure you already know of) includes Arthur among the sleeping heroes (of Britain, of Ireland, or the Nine Worthies etc. - it varies massively) who will be called from their magical sleep (sometimes "with an horn" is specified) in the hour of the nation's greatest need.

Dom
05-17-2012, 08:45 AM
Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal. Which will he choose? Which will he choose? What hand shelters? What hand slays?

I like the following interpretation of this one:

The path to Death beyond dying: what happens if Rand turns/is turned (incl. soul seizing) to the Shadow or decided to put an end to Creation, i.e. both lead to the final death. The implicit reference to the fact there's death leading to rebirth and there's a death beyond death is interesting.

The path to Life eternal: that's simply the path of souls in the pattern. That's to be misinterpreted as the DO's false immortality, but that's actually a reference to going on the path of death/rebirth. That's even more coherent because Rand is a Hero, for whom death is just a threshold/transition between one of his flesh incarnation and his Dream incarnation.

What hand shelters? What hand slays? Interconnected meanings: The hand of the Creator shelters (eternal life), the Hand of the DO slays, which is connected to Rand's choice, as he has the potential to play either roles as Champion (only the Chosen one can do what has to be done, if he choses to. It's funny how few seem to make consciously the connection between how the Creator presented Rand in TEOTW and the DO's "Those Chosen to Live Forever".).

My mind has often wandered about the potential active role in the endgame of Shaidar Haran as The Hand that Slays (which could refer to attempting to seize Rand's soul rather than literaly link SH to Rand's physical death), and what it might foreshadow about a Creator's "Hand that Shelters".

I must admit with the hinted transformation of Rand with the Epiphany, the idea that he has begun the process that will make him a Light counterpart of Shaidar Haran is appealing. He already has something like a little of the Creator's powers (like to make things grow where he passes). There's a certain logic to it that I like. Shai'tan is very hands-on, so his Hand is impressed with His mind, and lets him further involve Himself in Creation. It also bypasses its human Champion (not altogether, SH's power to interact with Creation being limited, so he still needs a human champion) so to speak.

A counterpart to SH would have to make the choice to become this Hand of the Light, and given the thematic of the Creator taking no active part, the Hand would have to make himself an embodiement of the Light, be in communion with the Creator, rather than in any way be a puppet whose strings are pulled. So basically, the Hand has to be the Champion, and he remains the Champion, merely as he becomes One with the Light, he acquires "powers" similar to SH's. What's also interesting there is that if Rand is The Hand, it's up to him to the end to "shelter himself". The Creator might give Rand access to the power to save himself from Shai'tan, but he won't use this power in Rand's place. In this context, it's interesting how RJ made it clear Shaidar Haran is not a proper avatar, how he reminded us of that. I mean, if Rand becomes something like SH, it's interesting to understand that wouldn't make him an avatar of the Creator either.

I've long believed there would be a very spiritual dimension to winning against the DO. Rand's epiphany and everything surrounding it has only reinforced this conviction. The thing is, though, that the Epiphany surprised me in the sense that it came fairly close to how I imagined Rand might "become one with the light", and this places the bar rather high for the ending, ie: at a level that would be fairly esoteric/religious, perhaps too much so for WOT.

But then perhaps not, as an esoteric kind of communion between Rand and the Light (while the epiphany was more about the dragons becoming the Dragon and becoming one with life) would be a golden opportunity to give us a few glimpses of resolution to cosmology-related issues.

But the revelation that the True Power is the essence of the DO, or as LTT put it "It is him", coming so late in the game, was certainly an interesting development. The door is certainly open now for the Creator's mind alone being outside/separate, but all the rest of him being Creation, of which Rand is a part, a part which is One with the whole, and the Chosen One of the Creator.

Too bad there's a few quotes confirming that the Creator is outside the system (or at least his mind or/and part of his essence are... but if the OP is his essence like the TP is Shai'tan's, and since his essence drives the Wheel and can be tapped into by channelers within Creation - and it's implied at the very list the OP also forms the fabric of reality, RJ gave AS answers and he can't be wholly outside), because the notion that the Creator's mind is actually the sum of all souls would have fitted very nicely, explain nicely why the world has to become One to solve the LB issues too. Now, at best, it could be "the Creator has given most of himself away to make Creation", most but not all of his essence, most but not all of his mind. Not quite sure it's heading in this direction, it's just appealing somehow that the sum of everything would be God.

Crispin's Crispian
05-17-2012, 12:46 PM
But the revelation that the True Power is the essence of the DO, or as LTT put it "It is him", coming so late in the game, was certainly an interesting development. The door is certainly open now for the Creator's mind alone being outside/separate, but all the rest of him being Creation, of which Rand is a part, a part which is One with the whole, and the Chosen One of the Creator.

Too bad there's a few quotes confirming that the Creator is outside the system (or at least his mind or/and part of his essence are... but if the OP is his essence like the TP is Shai'tan's, and since his essence drives the Wheel and can be tapped into by channelers within Creation - and it's implied at the very list the OP also forms the fabric of reality, RJ gave AS answers and he can't be wholly outside), because the notion that the Creator's mind is actually the sum of all souls would have fitted very nicely, explain nicely why the world has to become One to solve the LB issues too. Now, at best, it could be "the Creator has given most of himself away to make Creation", most but not all of his essence, most but not all of his mind. Not quite sure it's heading in this direction, it's just appealing somehow that the sum of everything would be God.

Well, a parallel might be Callandor, since it has been suggested that the Sword contains some "essence of Rand's soul." The One Power as the essence of the Creator might make sense, since it ultimately runs the whole system. This would explain why Rand needs to be the most powerful channeler ever--he needs to be able to commune with the Creator on a superlative level.

However I'm a little resistant to the idea of Rand being in such communion because I like the theory that the Wheel and the Pattern are self-sufficient. The Creator designed a world which would automatically self-correct against the Dark One's influence without his help. Then again, I've also always favored the "Final Turning" theory that most people seem to hate. ;)

Crispin's Crispian
05-17-2012, 12:51 PM
It's not limited to Arthur, either. Jesus appeared to his followers somewhat mysteriously post-Crucifixion. Hell, we see it even in popular culture with "Elvis Lives" and other celebrities (Top 10 People Rumored To Be Alive After Death (http://listverse.com/2009/04/02/top-10-people-rumored-to-be-alive-after-death/)).

Whenever a pivotal or larger-than-life figure dies, we see a resistance to the death in the form of rumors and sightings. Sometimes these turn into more than just longing and actually inform religions. If RJ is true to form, we won't have any proof that Rand survived--just rumors and suggestions.

Terez
05-17-2012, 03:01 PM
lol! A short novel indeed.

I wrote various parts over a few days, I didn't realize I'd done a full post's worth in each session.

In my defense, that was in answer to one of yours. :P Some posters act on me like an angreal, but you're like Callandor (Haven't met a CK yet, thanks heaven!).
Heh, I think it's just because we haven't seen each other in a while, since I hardly ever drop by rafo, and you hardly ever come here, so I'm totally ignorant of what you've been arguing these last few years. We have to play catch-up. It's been fun so far.

I'd have to check in my books, but this one is also folkloric however. There are tons of "non-canon" (ie: non-literary) Arthurian mentions in European folklore and sightings of Arthur in the woods (like, hunting with his dogs), after his "death" is one of those. They can be really hard to come accross, as they often appear only in works on Arthuriana, in research papers by scholars who did collect folktales or who studied/catalogued such collections. Most often, I only ever met them in books about folklore or as one-line references in tales that aren't about Arthur at all.
That sounds like a good possibility, and the dogs do ring a bell. After AMOL, maybe they will let us catalog RJ's books. :) (If Maria hasn't done that already. If she hasn't had time yet, I'd love to go to Charleston for a week or however long and help her do it, and I'm sure others would too.)

The other well-known such folklore amalgamation (that I'm sure you already know of) includes Arthur among the sleeping heroes (of Britain, of Ireland, or the Nine Worthies etc. - it varies massively) who will be called from their magical sleep (sometimes "with an horn" is specified) in the hour of the nation's greatest need.
Yeah, it seems every version I've read of Arthur's death has been accounted for in some way. The various women who took him to Avalon on the boat are all accounted for, and though most of them won't be on the boat, I think all of them will be involved in his death and resurrection. He's not going to Tar Valon to be healed, but the DKS cover suggests Tar Valon might be important. (It's a valid Camlann parallel because of the meaning of 'camlann' and Caemlyn's lack of a river.) The Horn won't be the essence of Rand's resurrection—we can say that much for sure—but we know it will play an important role anyway, whether by bringing Rand back briefly, or making an empty tomb parallel (I like the latter partly because we already have an Arthur brought back by the Horn).

Terez
05-17-2012, 03:34 PM
I like the following interpretation of this one:

The path to Death beyond dying: what happens if Rand turns/is turned (incl. soul seizing) to the Shadow or decided to put an end to Creation, i.e. both lead to the final death. The implicit reference to the fact there's death leading to rebirth and there's a death beyond death is interesting.
The reason I relate that passage to Slayer is because of the context:

The man who channels stands alone.
He gives his friends for sacrifice.
Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying,
one to life eternal.
Which will he choose? Which will he choose?
What hand shelters? What hand slays?
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.
Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.
Isam waited in the high passes.
The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now
course, and kill.
One did live, and one did die, but both are.
The Time of Change has come.
And also just because it makes sense. We know Slayer is used by the Shadow as an assassin. We know that Rand will go to Tel'aran'rhiod when he dies. We know that Slayer has special powers there, and we have reason to believe he's creating special Darkhounds there. We think of The Last Hunt as being wolf-language for the Last Battle, but there are indications that it will be something more. What are the dead wolves supposed to do anyway? There have to be more dead wolves than living ones. We know that Perrin, the Wolf King, is tied to Rand's death and resurrection through the Perun legends discussed above. And isn't he giving his friends for sacrifice now? Isn't Lan one of them? Slayer has two components, one tied to Rand, and one tied to Lan. Coincidence?

I see Odin vs Fenrir in both Rand vs Himself and Rand vs Moridin (the line between the two is blurred). But I see Vidar vs Fenrir in Lan vs Slayer, and Tyr vs Garm in Rand vs Gawyn. But maybe Lancelot will kill Arthur in this version. After all, if Rand goes Fenrir at Shayol Ghul, there will be two women in particular danger: Moiraine and Nynaeve. It just doesn't have the revenge aspect. And I want to see Lan tear Isam's head apart with his bare hands.

The path to Life eternal: that's simply the path of souls in the pattern. That's to be misinterpreted as the DO's false immortality, but that's actually a reference to going on the path of death/rebirth. That's even more coherent because Rand is a Hero, for whom death is just a threshold/transition between one of his flesh incarnation and his Dream incarnation.
Yeah, I have believed this for a while, both about the truth of it and the intended misinterpretation.

What hand shelters? What hand slays? Interconnected meanings: The hand of the Creator shelters (eternal life), the Hand of the DO slays, which is connected to Rand's choice, as he has the potential to play either roles as Champion (only the Chosen one can do what has to be done, if he choses to. It's funny how few seem to make consciously the connection between how the Creator presented Rand in TEOTW and the DO's "Those Chosen to Live Forever".).
I don't believe that was the Creator. :p

My mind has often wandered about the potential active role in the endgame of Shaidar Haran as The Hand that Slays (which could refer to attempting to seize Rand's soul rather than literaly link SH to Rand's physical death), and what it might foreshadow about a Creator's "Hand that Shelters".
Shaidar Haran vs Fain. I believe Fain is the reason why Shaidar Haran was introduced. This is Fain's Gollum role, and it doesn't involve him getting thrown into the lake of fire with the dagger, which would seem to satisfy Brandon's insistence that Fain will not end up like Gollum. Rand will need a distraction, I think, to prevent something like the tainting of saidin from happening again, and if Fain can trap the essence of the Dark One in Shaidar Haran, he can pull it off. Unintentionally, of course. And that pulls WoT away from the religion-like direction it seems to be headed, and back toward the all-too-humanness he said inspired the series in the first place.

Dom
05-17-2012, 04:17 PM
Heh, I think it's just because we haven't seen each other in a while, since I hardly ever drop by rafo, and you hardly ever come here, so I'm totally ignorant of what you've been arguing these last few years. We have to play catch-up. It's been fun so far.

Fine :D I haven't posted that much anywhere, a bit because of my love-hate relationship with TGS/TOM which has put me off WOT quite a bit.

I'll keep throwing snippets of answers at you then. :D



I made this argument many years ago, before I believed Rand would be resurrected (which I started believing when I read TGS). I stopped making it partly because of the RJ quote where he says the Wheel stepped in at Falme, but it could be a way of referring to what the Heroes do. My argument then was that there has to be some kind of profound purpose for the creation of the Horn beyond what we saw at Falme, because Falme was not Tarmon Gai'don. But I resist the idea that Rand will be with them now because I like the potential for an empty tomb parallel, and it seems you can't have both.

I don't think Rand will be among the dead either, though I've also toyed with the idea for a long time.

But what we may be wrong about is that it's Rand who will "remove the Bore" when his role as Champion may rather be to hold off Shai'tan while someone else does.

The character most associated to repairing what's broken and with Healing was always Nynaeve - she also has a Talent for feeling "wrongness" on a global scale.

It's nothing recent (long predating TGS/Callandor)that some have pointed to various foreshadowing she may be at Rand's side in the Pit... Rand's TP wound was literally bored in his side by Ba'alzamon believed at the time to be the DO (the SL wound is just a scratch in comparison) and it has always been potentially lethal. It's a weakness in his side, very tender, always in danger of ripping open, but currently sealed off. The Bore is itself a potentially lethal wound in the Pattern. It's the parallel between Bore and Wound that made me think it's through the wound when it's open at SG that Shai'tan (SH as his hand within the Pattern) may try to seize Rand's soul at that if He does, the Bore itself would be torn wide open.

Nynaeve has always been very adept at puzzling out what's wrong with something and repair it. It already goes beyond strictly Healing (also called Restoring, once.. a more apt description for what Nynaeve does, I think). Her invention to heal severing is already far more in the metaphysical realm than in the physical. Then there is the debate about her Healing of "madness", which supposedly contradicted RJ for which some pointed the accusatory finger at Brandon (if it's his invention, I'm far more interested in what else he may have seen in what's left ahead for Nynaeve that made him think it a good idea to add that scene). But has Nynaeve really "healed madness" in the way RJ said is impossible with the OP, or has she rather found a way to deal with the TP Taint that has seeped into a male channeler's body/brain and that the Cleansing, which dealt strictly with the Taint on saidin itself, did not remove? By RJ's own explanations about the Taint, that shadow on the brain won't evolve nor go on its own - it would need more Taint to create further TP "synapses" to make this mimickry of insanity progress even more. As far as we know she merely removed the "crazy" brain connections, she has not restored whatever ill effects/wounds the Taint may have had by now on the immaterial/spiritual mind/memories.

That's not normal insanity she Healed, in fact she didn't Heal anything at all, just freed the brain of a parasite. That episode immediately made me think of the Bore problem.


Moiraine now.

A big motif associated to Moiraine is that of Warder against the Shadow (and against Shadar Logoth) - if a limited ward to be sure. "My ability to touch the TS offer some protection that I can extend to you". "I can help protect your dreams". "I can find Rand wherever he will go, unless he dies" (an EOTW motif). She is also the early series' expert of protective Illusion and Wards against "evil things". Perhaps the most significant/ambiguous motif: "I do intend to keep you alive, but rather than let the Shadow have you, I'll kill you myself". I don't think it's a coincidence that now we have Moiraine in the circle that will ward Rand from Callandor's flaw. I don't see how it could possibly be, but perhaps this motif will be pushed to the extreme to link Moiraine to the solution of how to seal the Bore without touching Shai'tan or else how to ward Rand from Shai'tan's touch.

As for TAR's role in all of this.

My favourite topic for idle TAR speculation remains this one:

What if Beidomon's team used TAR to drill the Bore in the first place? They've done this remotely (from the CD/Sharom), it appears, not on the Island where the real world Bore appeared. Of course, there was Mierin 'TAR' Aronaille on this team.

What if the Bore happened when Team Bore tried to access the new Power from TAR, because there they might, as a group of very talented Dreamwalkers, collectively Will a hole in the Pattern and hold it long enough to let them access the New Source? Theorically, that shouldn't have affected the real world, according to our extremely limited understanding of "the rules". But we may simply be missing factors... at least in the context of what their ideas using TAR may have been, because as in the "unforeseen consequences" category we know with the TP ripping holes in the Pattern can be done, so it's not inconceivable if they made a hole in TAR, Shai'tan found a way to affect all dimensions at once (which incidentally, Egwene once theorized might be done in TAR, ie: that it's like the ultimate Portal Stone, that she could see the other dimensions - and if in the flesh we can surmise she could make a "Dreamgate" into any of them).

And Lanfear was never afraid of dreaming of the impossible, nor of trying to break the rules... We know she was also one of the AOLers dabbling with the pre-AOL mysteries like Portal Worlds and so on. We also know these theories were used in the invention of Waygates, which involves "holes" in reality which can be "healed" by removing the leaf key and give time for the hole to die/seal itself. Waygates, from which evil now pours out, Portal Stones, with which evil translates itself from one place to another. Both are Bore parallels.

What if some kind of limited fusion of TAR and the real world occured during the "drilling"? Let's say Shai'tan once access via the bore made in TAR has used Tel'aran'rhiod properties to invest his godly Will to create a manifestation of the Bore in the real world and has managed to hold on to it, but so far not to enlarge it to fully enter Creation? The Seals appear to have sealed the Forsaken out of reality - and deep enough, from TAR/Dreams. Ishamael appears to have been able to use TAR the whole time. We have one example in TEOTW at SL where he may have been able to manifest himself from TAR in Reality (perhaps it's how his once temporary returns in Reality begin). SG/the Bore is but a physical manifestation of a global weakness, in a world with tons of rules, among them that space-time must exist. Shai'tan is able to alter reality all around SG - as if the whole area was a bit like TAR to him, a similarity between the area and TAR Moghedien herself pointed out in passing. It's not possible to enter the Blight from TAR either, however that may be because Shai'tan himself blocks access. At least, there are some clues the Chosen may be exempt of this, if some of their meetings really took place in the reflection of Moridin's palace (could be the palace itself which is exempt, it would fit better with some of the episodes).

What happened at Falme may be a clue... reality was altered to an extent (that weird mist), a opening or temporary fusion/conjunction of some kind happened, or some kind of barrier was lifted. There was also a unique occurence in the series of the Wheel pulling off directly (dixit RJ) a pretty weird alteration of reality, making Rand and Ishamael appear in the skies. Could the Wheel do that to the Pattern only because TAR and the real world were "in conjunction" in some way? The only place we've seen similar "miracles" happen is after all in TAR. The Wheel "wanted" the battle to be seen by as many people as possible. Normally, this would have involved weaving available threads in the vicinity to witness the fight, which ta'veren lets it do on a more macro level. But with the "TAR conjunction" ongoing then, the Wheel simply made a kind of huge viewwall or TV in the skies instead (similar to something Siuan did once in TAR, similar to Perrin's Windows too).

We can't rule out there may be a big role for TAR to play in the endgame - not when there's two main characters (Egwene/Perrin), a few WO, the Dead Heroes and literally thousands of four leg dreamwalkers, and the the whole Shadow Team TAR (Moridin, Cyndane, Moghedien + Slayer) still currently alive. Not to mention Mat and the Horn.

Practical eg: Rand hold off/baits Shai'tan as Rand is One with Creation and grabbing him is the key to his endgame, Moiraine serves someone as the Ward (but how? some have suggested maybe Callandor itself is involved, and perhaps the viewing of a black hand holding it), Nynaeve who leads the circle (a woman will have to in that circle, can't be Rand) picks out the TP holding the Bore as she removed taint threads from a brain, Mat sounds the Horn, Egwene and Perrin seal off the hole in TAR which Shai'tan has used to create the multiverse Bore in the first place, the conjunction ends and bye-bye Shai'tan, SG, the Blight.. the whole shebang. Three as One being both the Callandor circle and Mat/Perrin/Rand shared-mind.

Belief and Order make strength.

A really outlandish idea: some have suggested since the Heroes might be ward against the fall of the long night, thus Rand might have to return with the Horn. It may not be Rand who's returned with the Horn to be the Ward for that scene... but "legendary Moiraine" Min called for so long "the woman who's dead and gone". That's not part of her Viewing, she thought her death meant it failed, but that would be ironic if it Rand would literally almost certainly fail without a woman who's dead and gone... all the more ironic since it's Moiraine who desperately sought to understand how the Horn played into all of this. There's so many interconnections in that series we can come up with so many weird ideas like that. :D

Terez
05-17-2012, 05:42 PM
Fine :D I haven't posted that much anywhere, a bit because of my love-hate relationship with TGS/TOM which has put me off WOT quite a bit.
I get it, but it did different things to me. Maybe not the right things, but oh well; here I am.

But what we may be wrong about is that it's Rand who will "remove the Bore" when his role as Champion may rather be to hold off Shai'tan while someone else does.
Well, as I hinted before, I have argued this before, and that argument originally came out of your arguments on Egwene from years ago. I found that I liked the idea of Rand not sealing the Bore, especially since it seems the most important thing he has to do is shed his blood at Shayol Ghul, some kind of symbolic sacrifice. But I tend to see him and Egwene doing it together now, after he's been resurrected. His sacrifice was important, because he could not have done it under the influence of the Shadow. I don't think it will be sealed in the same way that Lews Therin did it (aside from the gender issue), but I still think Egwene's talent with cuendillar might be significant.

You might be right about Nynaeve's healing aspect, though. I just feel like this is the right place for Egwene to step in for her own character redemption, while Nynaeve's role is to bring Rand back from the dead.

What if Beidomon's team used TAR to drill the Bore in the first place? They've done this remotely (from the CD/Sharom), it appears, not on the Island where the real world Bore appeared. Of course, there was Mierin 'TAR' Aronaille on this team.
That is an interesting idea, especially since Dreaming talent is apparently required to be able to read the Pattern.

What if some kind of limited fusion of TAR and the real world occured during the "drilling"? Let's say Shai'tan once access via the bore made in TAR has used Tel'aran'rhiod properties to invest his godly Will to create a manifestation of the Bore in the real world and has managed to hold on to it, but so far not to enlarge it to fully enter Creation?
This is something I've talked about a good deal, not in reference to how it was done, but just the similarities between the area around Shayol Ghul and Tel'aran'rhiod noted rather blatantly by Moghedien. (And mirrored in Rand's thoughts on Moridin's dream place set at Shayol Ghul.) And Brandon has specified that there are specific reasons for RAFO'ing the question of whether or not Shayol Ghul can be reached from Tel'aran'rhiod.

The Seals appear to have sealed the Forsaken out of reality - and deep enough, from TAR/Dreams. Ishamael appears to have been able to use TAR the whole time.
Yes, I've also speculated that his ability to remain free to an extent was due to his talent there, but I doubt his talent is so much greater than Lanfear's that it was an automatic thing; he would have had to do something, like put himself to sleep at exactly the right moment, in the half-asleep, half-awake thing that the Wise Ones taught Egwene.

What happened at Falme may be a clue... reality was altered to an extent (that weird mist), a opening or temporary fusion/conjunction of some kind happened, or some kind of barrier was lifted. There was also a unique occurence in the series of the Wheel pulling off directly (dixit RJ) a pretty weird alteration of reality, making Rand and Ishamael appear in the skies. Could the Wheel do that to the Pattern only because TAR and the real world were "in conjunction" in some way?
It has been a long time since we (meaning Theorylanders) have argued this here, but that was always my approach to it. Tamyrlin likes to go on about PLEs now. I think it must be a religion thing; straight-up providential answers seem to make him happy. :p But yeah, we talked about the Horn melding of real world and Tel'aran'rhiod, and the Eye of the World as well.

A really outlandish idea: some have suggested since the Heroes might be ward against the fall of the long night, thus Rand might have to return with the Horn. It may not be Rand who's returned with the Horn to be the Ward for that scene... but "legendary Moiraine" Min called for so long "the woman who's dead and gone". That's not part of her Viewing, she thought her death meant it failed, but that would be ironic if it Rand would literally almost certainly fail without a woman who's dead and gone... all the more ironic since it's Moiraine who desperately sought to understand how the Horn played into all of this. There's so many interconnections in that series we can come up with so many weird ideas like that. :D
Fionwe has a theory that Egwene is the Daughter of the Night in the Dark Prophecy. I countered with an argument that it's Tuon. :D

Terez
05-17-2012, 05:49 PM
PS—Crispian's Crispin aka SDog wrote an analysis (http://www.theoryland.com/chronicles.php?user=sdog&page=a) of the similarities between Tel'aran'rhiod and Shayol Ghul many years ago. That area has always been kind of a Theoryland thing (http://www.theoryland.com/studies.php?page=unseenworld).

Dom
05-17-2012, 09:12 PM
The reason I relate that passage to Slayer is because of the context:

I may go more into my Slayer thought when I get to answer your previous comments.

I think your ideas interesting, if personally I wouldn't necessarily go as far as saying Slayer was made for this very purpose all along. I still find it very credible his final role in the series may be to attempt to find and kill Rand-the-Hero in TAR.

I can even reconcile my "anti foreshadowing" for Egwene with this. I mean... another application to purposefully keep Egwene away from all Birgitte matters may be because RJ felt if she learned this when Elayne/Nynaeve did it would be problematic to credibly pull off that she'd intentionally stay away from investigating this "TAR mystery", all the more if she learned of this before Moghedien's escape (there's no way she would have resisted asking Moghedien). Egwene is so curious. Nynaeve never give what exactly Moghedien has done a second thought (it was vile, why would she?), but in her place Egwene would have - I mean.. bringing something (Birgitte and her arrow) from TAR into the real world? No way she would have resisted knowing more, and from clues try to puzzle it out. That would have been very inconvenient, if that's really what will happen, and more, it's Nynaeve he wanted to do the deed.

Egwene could instead be part of the task force protecting those trying to find Rand and rip him out (you suggested the bonding might actually happen in TAR. That's certainly a possibility.)

The "defense task force" could very easily include Egwene, Perrin, the wolves, the WO.

A need to include protectors/hunters would need to be there, though. That may not take much. You have Nynaeve/Elayne/Aviendha present. Moghedien hates both Elayne-Nynaeve. Egwene has of course ties to Lanfear (beside being an interesting mirror/parallel, even in Mierin aspects), who knows Min and who hates Aviendha (and Rand). Perrin-Slayer is obvious.

We know that Slayer has special powers there, and we have reason to believe he's creating special Darkhounds there.

I wonder if you've had the same idea I've had: normal DH = genetic constructs created by Aginor, probably with dog genes (I'd think pitbulls notably!) and wolf genes, and the TP, and whatever the Mad Professor saw fit. Like trollocs they can reproduce (and age/die) and they naturally attract ready-for-rebirth wolf-souls from TAR. They are tamed as DH however, can't enter TAR, so their souls go????? Souls pool maybe, where like Trollocs (and unlike ethical constructs like Nym) they are too tainted to be reborn as something else than Shadowspawn.

"Special DH": made in TAR via gifts to Slayer from the DO using dead-in-TAR wolf-souls, or by Shai'tan because somehow the fact Slayer kills them lets him be aware of the death/location and seize the soul. Perhaps they are bonded to a living darkhound at SG then "Slayerized". They may well be able to enter TAR, it's not because the Shadow's waited TG to reveal that that they aren't.

They aren't normally "alive" and can't be destroyed short of balefire. I also very much suspect that in keeping with the Old Grim legends, the DO is "active" in them, ie: they're bonded to him, can act as his eyes, and it's through his willpower he "reconstruct" them from death.

It may be inaccurate to say they're "a new breed". The Chosen used to like using them as guard dogs once. The "normal breed" aren't terribly useful, a strong channeler can fairly easily kill them. If in the AOL they couldn't be destroyed short of a Pattern-destroying weave both sides became afraid to use however...

So instead of "special dh"/new breed of DH, I simply think through the Third Age DH no longer went through a process which makes them Shai'tan's hounds as they were in the WOS. The introduction of Slayer allowed that process to resume. That would again suggest the completion of Slayer is more recent that Luc's death (or his presumed date of death, anyway. Luc may have been kept alive much longer than we think).

One question which could be very relevant if there's a connection with Rand-Moridin: was Luc always a DF, and if not is it the Slayerization process, or the bond to Isam over time, which brought him to the Shadow?

We think of The Last Hunt as being wolf-language for the Last Battle, but there are indications that it will be something more. What are the dead wolves supposed to do anyway? There have to be more dead wolves than living ones.

Presumably, and if not, there soon may be for sure if they start fighting Shadowspawn in the RL! They are mean fighters, but their losses tended to be high against even Trollocs, over half a pack might die to kill a single Myrddraal, and against "Shadowbrothers", go figure the odds. A wolf army is really nice, and they've been helpful and all, but unless there's hundreds of thousand, they won't last that long in TG. But the more of them die, the bigger the TAR wolf army gets.

I suspect the same as you re: them hunting in TAR. I suspect DH at least and Brandon-knows-what-else is going to appear in TAR soon. The question is why? The answer would be "because Lightsiders go there". Why? First there's the dreamspike #2 to protect. But is that all? I suspect not. I think RJ kept for TG what the BWB alluded to concerning Lanfear in the WOS : targeted TAR assassinations (snatch-in-TAR-and-kill, I presume), mass madness/mass nightmares phenomenons etc. Isn't it said something like in Lanfear's territories, people became afraid of going to sleep?

I'm not quite sure Cyndane will settle down anywhere during TG, but if she does I'd place my bet on the "Fortress of the Moon", ie: Tear. She has very strong shape-shifting associations, so I don't even dismiss a return as Lanfear (not necessarily in her body, though there were a possible hint in TOM she may have been alive when transmigrated. I'm fairly curious about the whole point of that detail that Moiraine thought Lanfear wasn't dead when Mr. X, likely Moridin, came for her). I could well imagine that as a reward from Moridin/Shai'tan if she succeeds at something big soon.


We know that Perrin, the Wolf King, is tied to Rand's death and resurrection through the Perun legends discussed above.

That could simply mean he'll be remotely involved (eg: as protector of those ressurecting Rand) but there will be those to believe that Goldeneyes Hammer-ed Rand back to life, giving birth to legends.

A similar corruption of myth that could tie Egwene to Rand's magical (re)birth is Arianrhod Silver Wheel (magical) mother of Leu Law Gyffes (whose castle Caer Arianrhod is no doubt an origin of TAR). That legend was mostly used for Lanfear (who denied him his real name and insiste on calling him Lews Therin, who armed him with Callandor, and who denied him a three-in-one wife.. a tree blossom - Aviendha, a Queen of the Meadow - Elayne, and a broom - Min the stablegirl).

However, Egwene and Lanfear are so interconnected... and she still prefers to name him Rand, she refuses him to break the seals and take arms/start TG, yet she is the one who granted him his first wife).

The "corrupted" connection may be that Arianrhod is Leu's mother. It could place Egwene, like Perrin, among those involved in the process, thought by some to have done the deed (she's the Amyrlin after all - it must be her)


And isn't he giving his friends for sacrifice now? Isn't Lan one of them? Slayer has two components, one tied to Rand, and one tied to Lan. Coincidence?

No, certainly not a coincidence. He's tied to the Royal Line of Andor, which even allowing for distortion through Elaida's ever bad filtering of what her original foretelling actually was, is supposed to be the key to the LB. He's also Galad's uncle, the brother of Moiraine's sister-in-law. Pre-KOD I thought RJ meant to use him during the Succession in Andor - that Lord Luc would show up as Perival Mantear's guardian. He has been seen in the palace, I still don't rule out an appearance as Luc during Caemlynaggedon.)

His tie to Rand can certainly turn out to be the most important.

OTOH, Galad is possibly old enough to remember him (or puzzle it out from a family ressemblance - Galad has to know the Mantears).

There's two dangers I see in Slayer for Lan and the Malkieri. The first is if Isam is put at the head of a Shadowspawn army sent against Lan's. Lan was never at his best when acting under strong emotions - he can be extremely impulsive, even rash, in those cases. Let's say Isam rushes out of the Seven Towers to meet the Malkieri...with the usual warcries of Isam! Isam!, and that's the first they've heard of him. They might "lose it" a bit. And Isam can presumably "TAR jump" out of the RL and back into it at Lan's side in a blink and a half, when he was a mile away a second before.

The other danger is the tactic he used in TSR, to infiltrate the other side. As Lord Luc, he may be able to get dangerously close to Lan. If Galad is among those eventually sent to help Lan... he could save his life.

I've toyed with two possibilities connected to Verin.

The first is she warned Luc's nephew Galad about Slayer. I'm not convinced the letter he got in TOM is from Verin and not a red herring, though (in the scene he presumably just met Berelain at her tent so she'd accompany him, so I wouldn't rule out it's a passionate love letter from her, or a demand in marriage. She'd be the style.). He seems to have gotten it near Whitebridge, so pretty much as he set foot in Andor. The only way this could be from Verin is if she visited Perrin's camp, but she would have to have discovered Galad was there and find herself a messenger she instructed to give the letter to Galad in X days (the timing would make this similar to Mat's deadline). Verin was always cautious in interferring with ta'veren, and Perrin had attracted Galad, so I could see her deciding not to mention Caemlyn to Galad.

For the same ta'veren reason, I could see her not giving the information to Nynaeve, as she was very obviously caught in Rand's web.

The other option I've considered is that it's part of the mission she left to Alanna. "Vanish, release the bond to Rand if there's any risk you get caught, because the Shadow knows about the bond" may be part of it. However, Alanna knows Luc by sight, which makes her perfect to be sent to find Lan and warn him of the Dark Prophecy (especially if Verin believes Isam's soul has Luc's body, but I suspect Verin was one of those non-Chosen Slayer said knew about him/to find him). In TGH she seems to have baited Moiraine. She pretended to have no idea who Isam was to see if Moiraine would bite and say "Mandragoran, of course". The fact Moiraine said nothing (she couldn't lie) was a solid hint she most likely didn't want Lan to know. Which was of course the case.

I can't shake off the notion Alanna was also perfect for Verin for any mission that involves returning to Rand afterward in the nick of time. Just for the sake of example: find the fortress near SG and tell Rand.

And I want to see Lan tear Isam's head apart with his bare hands

The opposite might also happen, alas.

I don't believe that was the Creator. :p

I was never too fond of the notion it was a bait from Shai'tan, so far from SG. I never dismissed it completely, though. Ishamael? Maybe.

The nature of the message, giving Rand the choice he really had at his Epiphany, makes me still lean a bit more toward the Creator. That descent into hell was part of the prophecies. You've touched Shai'tan, you've lived through hell, you've seent the price LTT paid... do you think Creation should go on nonetheless? Rand made the choice he was asked to make, IMO. He was the Dragon, but he truly became the Champion then. Of course there's no reason to believe Shai'tan may not know after so many turnings about the Dragon's choice, and part of his strategy was always to offer an alternative choice to "all that suffering", so...

That one's a real RAFO.


Shaidar Haran vs Fain. I believe Fain is the reason why Shaidar Haran was introduced.

I think so too, along the same lines as you. I sort of like the Rand = Champion = Hand of the Light notion, but it doesn't follow Rand should clash with SH. OP/TP direct interaction = unpredictability.

An alternative is the way too Gollum-like option of "Into-the-Pit-he-goes" (otherwise known as "Fain tossing") to make Shai'tan retreat so a channeler can safely touch the Bore. That may be an impossibility, though, that Shai'tan might "release his grip" on the Bore as it may be the point of contact between Light and Shadow and it you cut that contact, the Bore is gone. Throwing Fain in the Bore, boom!, no more Bore is way, way too lame. Beside, causing a big explosion at the Bore sounds terribly unwise.

Rand will need a distraction, I think, to prevent something like the tainting of saidin from happening again, and if Fain can trap the essence of the Dark One in Shaidar Haran, he can pull it off. Unintentionally, of course. And that pulls WoT away from the religion-like direction it seems to be headed, and back toward the all-too-humanness he said inspired the series in the first place.

It could be, I guess, that the Epiphany was the big spiritual triumph.

I still think RJ's "Who tells you the Creator doesn't care?" and Sanderson's "don't forget Rand is a shepherd" suggests further religious/spiritual developments. What needs to be avoided certainly is turning Rand into a genuine messiah-prophet. I don't mind Rand getting glimpses of the Creator's design (or going though an experience that makes him figure some of the "real" cosmology out), but this needs to remain his secret afterward. I always doubted RJ would give us too much anyway - more his style to give us a few tantalizing crumbs and make us fight a long time over them.

I'll make sure to read that analysis you posted a link for.

Terez
05-17-2012, 10:47 PM
I may go more into my Slayer thought when I get to answer your previous comments.

I think your ideas interesting, if personally I wouldn't necessarily go as far as saying Slayer was made for this very purpose all along. I still find it very credible his final role in the series may be to attempt to find and kill Rand-the-Hero in TAR.
Well, clearly he has many roles, but I think part of what Ishamael has been trying to do is, as he said, tie a thousand strings to Rand so that he's prepared for any eventuality, and apparently the Dark One has told him a great deal about what has gone down in past turnings of the Wheel. The potential to kill Rand permanently in Tel'aran'rhiod is certainly something to be prepared for. I do wonder if there's some rhyme or reason to combining those two.

Egwene could instead be part of the task force protecting those trying to find Rand and rip him out (you suggested the bonding might actually happen in TAR. That's certainly a possibility.)
Yeah, I've definitely considered this. Perrin is obvious, especially since we know his Second Time is unfulfilled, and Perrin and Egwene have been tied together since TEOTW.

I wonder if you've had the same idea I've had: normal DH = genetic constructs created by Aginor, probably with dog genes (I'd think pitbulls notably!) and wolf genes, and the TP, and whatever the Mad Professor saw fit. Like trollocs they can reproduce (and age/die) and they naturally attract ready-for-rebirth wolf-souls from TAR. They are tamed as DH however, can't enter TAR, so their souls go????? Souls pool maybe, where like Trollocs (and unlike ethical constructs like Nym) they are too tainted to be reborn as something else than Shadowspawn.
I'd think Darkhounds can only be reborn as Darkhounds, but wolves who dies as wolves will be reborn as wolves. Only wolves killed by Darkhounds will be 'reborn' as Darkhounds.

"Special DH": made in TAR via gifts to Slayer from the DO using dead-in-TAR wolf-souls, or by Shai'tan because somehow the fact Slayer kills them lets him be aware of the death/location and seize the soul. Perhaps they are bonded to a living darkhound at SG then "Slayerized". They may well be able to enter TAR, it's not because the Shadow's waited TG to reveal that that they aren't.
This is kind of iffy, but the timing is right for Slayer to have begun making his Darkhounds around TDR/TSR, so that by the time Perrin arrives in TSR, all the wolves are dead or gone. It's hard to speculate on the mechanics of how he does this, but I suspect the Darkhounds have an ability similar to his own, and that their apparent immortality is not just related to their death in Tel'aran'rhiod, but rather they have properties of Tel'aran'rhiod allowing them to defy natural laws.

One question which could be very relevant if there's a connection with Rand-Moridin: was Luc always a DF, and if not is it the Slayerization process, or the bond to Isam over time, which brought him to the Shadow?
It's a question that comes up fairly often both here and at Dragonmount, but I don't know that we have enough evidence to say one way or the other. People have even speculated on whether Gitara Moroso was Black Ajah.

I suspect the same as you re: them hunting in TAR. I suspect DH at least and Brandon-knows-what-else is going to appear in TAR soon. The question is why? The answer would be "because Lightsiders go there". Why? First there's the dreamspike #2 to protect. But is that all? I suspect not. I think RJ kept for TG what the BWB alluded to concerning Lanfear in the WOS : targeted TAR assassinations (snatch-in-TAR-and-kill, I presume), mass madness/mass nightmares phenomenons etc. Isn't it said something like in Lanfear's territories, people became afraid of going to sleep?
The dreamspike is definitely a component of that level of the battle, but Rand's resurrection is certain to be the main show, and the Bore might come into it as well, and it might also serve as the means for Elayne to have her babies at the proper moment, since that fits with certain versions of the Boann/Dagda legends and makes a lot of sense. It's possible for her to give birth prematurely, but I somehow don't think it will happen quite so mundanely. Another possibility is a Portal World, but that seems less likely.

That could simply mean he'll be remotely involved (eg: as protector of those ressurecting Rand) but there will be those to believe that Goldeneyes Hammer-ed Rand back to life, giving birth to legends.
I do see the protector role as being his most important role, along with perhaps destroying the other dreamspike, or perhaps killing Slayer (and all this could easily be tied together).

However, Egwene and Lanfear are so interconnected... and she still prefers to name him Rand, she refuses him to break the seals and take arms/start TG, yet she is the one who granted him his first wife).
I think both of them speak to a sort of 'revenge against the ex-girlfriend' tendency in RJ's brain. :p

No, certainly not a coincidence....

There's two dangers I see in Slayer for Lan and the Malkieri. The first is if Isam is put at the head of a Shadowspawn army sent against Lan's. Lan was never at his best when acting under strong emotions - he can be extremely impulsive, even rash, in those cases.
He did alright with Ryne, I think. He gets a little rash when he's angry, but he's no less dangerous at those times, and no more vulnerable.

I was never too fond of the notion it was a bait from Shai'tan, so far from SG. I never dismissed it completely, though. Ishamael? Maybe.
I never thought of it as a bait. If anything, Rand was baiting the Dark One. I see it as the Dark One answering, saying he would not take part, that his Chosen One would have to do what needed doing. I believe that's what Rand meant in Maradon about it coming too close to a direct confrontation between him and the Dark One. He's done that before.

I still think RJ's "Who tells you the Creator doesn't care?" and Sanderson's "don't forget Rand is a shepherd" suggests further religious/spiritual developments. What needs to be avoided certainly is turning Rand into a genuine messiah-prophet.
I agree (with the last bit), and I might already fear it had gone too far in that direction if not for the lurking Moridin bond and the fact that many things in the book can be interpreted in various ways. For example, his vaunted ability to 'see' Darkfriends. Clearly there's something there, but clearly he also had help from Verin.

Terez
05-17-2012, 10:49 PM
It's not limited to Arthur, either. Jesus appeared to his followers somewhat mysteriously post-Crucifixion. Hell, we see it even in popular culture with "Elvis Lives" and other celebrities (Top 10 People Rumored To Be Alive After Death (http://listverse.com/2009/04/02/top-10-people-rumored-to-be-alive-after-death/)).

Whenever a pivotal or larger-than-life figure dies, we see a resistance to the death in the form of rumors and sightings. Sometimes these turn into more than just longing and actually inform religions. If RJ is true to form, we won't have any proof that Rand survived--just rumors and suggestions.
I meant to respond to this earlier. Southpaw asked Wilson about this at JordanCon and Wilson said that Rand's fate will not be left up in the air at the end. We'll know exactly what happens to him. [/wilson] The people, on the other hand, will be mostly clueless. I need to put that in the database.

Tamyrlin
05-17-2012, 11:11 PM
Hope you don't mind if I make some sporadic comments; good to see you btw.


Nynaeve has always been very adept at puzzling out what's wrong with something and repair it. It already goes beyond strictly Healing (also called Restoring, once.. a more apt description for what Nynaeve does, I think). Her invention to heal severing is already far more in the metaphysical realm than in the physical.


I like the idea of Delving the Bore, it fits with the way Nynaeve has jumped in leaps and bounds with her unique healing (or as you say, Restoring) talents, and Nynaeve's exposure to T'A'R would make it realistic. Although, I tend to think that Nynaeve's role will be more in preventing the next Backlash Tainting as part of the Sealing, which would explain her continued specialization in Delving and now familiarity with the Taint at a much deeper level than any living non Forsaken Aes Sedai and what I plan to see as continued puzzling over what she sees in Rand's mind protecting him from the Taint.

My favourite topic for idle TAR speculation remains this one:

What if Beidomon's team used TAR to drill the Bore in the first place? They've done this remotely (from the CD/Sharom), it appears, not on the Island where the real world Bore appeared. Of course, there was Mierin 'TAR' Aronaille on this team.

Lanfear's resurgence as a piece of this entire puzzle seems at the very least to present us with a knowledge source as it pertains to the drilling and fixing what was done. I'm hoping we see more in-depth discussions between Rand (or better yet, Rand as LTT) and Lanfear in the Dream, as she either attempts to fool him or in reality use him to help her. Any knowledge from Lanfear in this regard would be useful. And It is likely that Lanfear's understanding of T'A'R, Dream Bubbles, the GOI, the Void, Mirror Worlds, vacuoles, etc., all played a part in the research itself as far as to what the Power source might be and how to best "drill" through into that location. But I've always found it interesting to note that Lanfear didn't join the Dark One for five years (iirc) after she helped create the Bore.


We can't rule out there may be a big role for TAR to play in the endgame - not when there's two main characters (Egwene/Perrin), a few WO, the Dead Heroes and literally thousands of four leg dreamwalkers, and the the whole Shadow Team TAR (Moridin, Cyndane, Moghedien + Slayer) still currently alive. Not to mention Mat and the Horn.

Practical eg: Rand hold off/baits Shai'tan as Rand is One with Creation and grabbing him is the key to his endgame, Moiraine serves someone as the Ward (but how? some have suggested maybe Callandor itself is involved, and perhaps the viewing of a black hand holding it), Nynaeve who leads the circle (a woman will have to in that circle, can't be Rand) picks out the TP holding the Bore as she removed taint threads from a brain, Mat sounds the Horn, Egwene and Perrin seal off the hole in TAR which Shai'tan has used to create the multiverse Bore in the first place, the conjunction ends and bye-bye Shai'tan, SG, the Blight.. the whole shebang. Three as One being both the Callandor circle and Mat/Perrin/Rand shared-mind.

Belief and Order make strength.


I'd love to see T'A'R play a huge role in the end. Although, I expect to see a significant amount of Pattern breakdown spread across T'A'R, as we begin to see with the Mirror World T'A'R merge that happens to the window in Tar Valon T'A'R. Not only would they have to assert their will in planned coordination, they'd have to fight for control over an Unseen World that is being torn apart too.

Mik
05-18-2012, 02:30 PM
Hello all,

It's been awhile since I've had "a shot of Wot".
But I saw Tam's Tweet about this topic and just couldn't resist it.

I just logged on to copy/paste an old D'mount (sorry ;)) post of mine about this topic. My current life doesn't allow any time to read all the posts, so excuse me for just barging in and posting this... but -heck- you guys might like it:

Have a good life and who knows... one day.. we meet again!

The Dragon (Reborn) is the Lord of the Morning; the Prince of the Dawn.

What I think will happen during Tarmon Gaidon is the following:
At one point, Mat will blow the Horn of Valere and -much like what we saw at the end of TGH- that will mix Tel'aran'rhiod & the Real World.
But this time Mat doesn't blow it just anywhere (like near Falme), but he'll blow it as a last ditch effort at (or near) Shayol Ghul. That way, what Verin described as a paradox back in TDR (see the Chapter 'A Matter of Thought' (how fitting!)) won't be a paradox at all since all the worlds are one, so if the DO wins right there, the DO is freed in all worlds since TAR is part (and/or surrounding) all the worlds.

It also makes sure that the Last Battle between Shai'tan & the Dragon -again much like the TGH fight- will be a battle of willpower mostly.
A battle of Mind over Matter, since in TAR ' thought' is 'Matter' (see previously mentioned chapter name). Normally, Shayol Ghul can't be reached in TAR -due to Shai'tans influence-, but because the Horn is blown at the weak spot, it now can be reached.

"Thought is the arrow of Time and Memory never fades".
So when the Dragon is nearly deafeated and is being swallowed by the 'infinite maw' he will have a Memory of Light (since memory is the one thing that never fades). And through his sheer strong stubborn willpower, the Dragon wills the sun to Dawn in TAR right at the Heart of the Dark, fullfilling prophecy of having the Sun dawn twice*. Once that morning in the Real World and once later in the day in a mix of TAR and the Real World moments before the Shadow swallows all. He will remember Light in the one spot where there is none and will hope for salvation and Rebirth.

I think that's how he will defeat Shai'tan. The Dragon will once again bind the Soul of Shadow inside his own Soul by envelopping Darkness/Nothingness with the Light of the dawning Sun. Binding Shai'tan as it was once designed by the Creator; The strongest of Souls binding the seed of Chaos/Nothingness inside somehting evil cannot touch -a pure Soul-, through sacrificing that Soul and hoping for nothing but salvation and rebirth (the strongest oath).

The weak spot will disapear from the woven Pattern because the Dragon dies and Shai'tan is bound inside the Dragon Soul in the 'soulpool'.
The weak spot in the Pattern will only re-appear each time the Dragon is spun out and woven into the Pattern, making the saying that about the Dragon bringing the Dark One more then half right; the Soul of the Dragon that is woven in the Pattern IS the weak spot.


It's why Shai'tan needs the Dragon (Soul) in the right circumstances to be able to break the Wheel of Time. Ironically, the circumstances for Shai'tan to break free are the exact same circumstances that the Dragon needs to be able to re-seal Shai'tan the proper way (as described above).

Amen.

"Let the Prince of the Dawn ride again on the Winds of Time!"

Cheerio,
Mik


*It's noteworthy that we've never seen a dawn -nor dusk- in TAR before, I think.
Through the Dragon we will see the first Dawn in the Unseen World.


Original post:
http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/60798-day-that-dawns-twice/#entry1864846
Edit: (rest of the topic might be nice to read as well... there's more in follow-up posts)

So long!
Mik

(P.S: It's a knuckle-biter to see Dom posting long posts and not having the time to read) :(
(P.S2: Hail Theories & WoT; the best drug there ever was! :D)

Dom
05-19-2012, 11:32 AM
Hope you don't mind if I make some sporadic comments; good to see you btw.

:D Same to you. I really liked the "Driving Mr. Sanderson Q&A, it's one of my favourites.

You'll have to do a post-series replay at some time...

I'll have to keep it very short as I'm about to leave the city, I'll be back early next week.

[QUOTE]I like the idea of Delving the Bore, it fits with the way Nynaeve has jumped in leaps and bounds with her unique healing (or as you say, Restoring) talents, and Nynaeve's exposure to T'A'R would make it realistic. Although, I tend to think that Nynaeve's role will be more in preventing the next Backlash Tainting as part of the Sealing, which would explain her continued specialization in Delving and now familiarity with the Taint at a much deeper level than any living non Forsaken Aes Sedai and what I plan to see as continued puzzling over what she sees in Rand's mind protecting him from the Taint.

I didn't make that connection, but it totally makes sense.

I think it may be a mix of all those issues Nynaeve takes care of/is pivotal in.






Lanfear's resurgence as a piece of this entire puzzle seems at the very least to present us with a knowledge source as it pertains to the drilling and fixing what was done.

Knowledge and misinformation I would think. I think the main motive why (I believe) Moridin sent her to Rand is to discover how much Rand knows at this point and what his plans for the Bore are. A post epiphany necessary move.

I bet Lanfear understands the most about the nature of the Bore. Some of that may even be "between her and Shai'tan" only.