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kasper11
05-16-2012, 03:35 PM
Sorry if this has been brought up before, I did a search but didn't find anything...

Also, I know that Brandon denied this in a Twitter conversation w/Terez and others, but I think this may have been one of those minor points on which Brandon answered off the cuff without consulting the notes.


In EOTW, Rand has several dreams, most of which are caused/controlled by Ishmael. However, there are three dreams which I think were not controlled by Ishmael, which seem to in some way show the future (maybe). (Most of the arguments regarding the first and third dreams were put forward by Terez in her chat with Brandon. http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/WOTRR_10_January_2011 )

Chapter 9 - The First Dream
The first is in Chapter 9. There are two parts to the dream. In the first, Rand is at Shayol Ghul, and he has his first encounter with Ishmael. Then the dream changes. Rand is in a meadow near Dragonmount, then he is in Tar Valon and there are tons of people there encouraging Rand to go to the Tower. He is told it is his destiny. However he turns, he finds the Tower before him. Finally, he goes into the Tower and a Mydraal is waiting there for him.

The second part of this dream doesn't feel like one of Ishmael's dreams. For starters, it is the only one with other people in it. Second, Ishmael isn't there, only a Mydraal. Third, Rand doesn't have the feeling of doom. It is a hopeful dream, until the end.

This seems to me to be significant prophecy...no matter how Rand tries to get away over the next three books, all roads will lead to his involvement with Aes Sedai. He is the hope of the people. The Mydraal to me signifies that Tar Valon is not a place of safety after all, which we know. The Black Ajah is there.

Chapter 24 - What Ishmael Doesn't Know
The next dream that I think is a Dream takes place in Chapter 24, while Rand is on the Spray. Again, the dream starts out with Ishmael.
"'A dream!' Rand shouted. 'This is a dream!' Ba'alzamon's eyes began to widen, in surprise or anger or both, then the air shimmered, and his features blurred, and faded."

We next see Rand in a maze of mirrors. Ishmael is chasing him, and "He found himself staring at the reflection of his own face, pale and shivering in the knife-edge cold. Ba'alzamon's image grew behind his, staring at him; not seeing, but staring still. In every mirror, the flames of Ba'alzamon's face raged behind him, enveloping, consuming, merging. He wanted to scream, but his throat was frozen. There was only one face in those endless mirrors. His own face. Ba'alzamon's face. One face."

This is the key to me....Rand sees his face in the dream. Turn back to the previous dream with Ishmael in Chapter 14 - "A single mirror hung on the wall, but that was not ordinary at all. When he looked at it he saw only a blur where his reflection should have been. Everything else in the room was shown true, but not him."

Rand cannot see his reflection in the Ishmael dream because Ishmael does not know what he looks like. So how come he can see himself in the mirrors in Chapter 24? It can't be that Ishmael has discovered what Rand looks like. Chapter 43 - "On the polished tabletop stood three small figures, the rough, featureless shapes of men, as if the sculptor had been hasty with his clay. Beside one stood a wolf, its clear detail emphasized by the crudeness of the man-shape, and another clutched a tiny dagger, a point of red on the hilt glittering in the light. The last held a sword. The hair stirring on the back of his neck, he moved close enough to see the heron in exquisite detail on that small blade."

A little later, Matt describes the dream..."'He knows who I am, Rand. I picked up the one with the dagger, and he said, 'So that's who you are.' And when I looked again, the figure had my face. My face, Rand! It looked like flesh. It felt like flesh. Light help me, I could feel my own hand gripping me, like I was the figure. '"

So if Rand can't see himself in mirrors in Ishmael dreams until Ishmael knows who he is, how come Rand sees himself here? Again, this seems to be prophecy, Rand and Moridin are merging in some way.

Dream 3 - The Fisher King
The prophecy dream is in Chapter 34. It pretty much speaks for itself.
“The Queen is wed to the land,” Thom said as brightly colored balls danced in a circle, “but the Dragon . . . the Dragon is one with the land, and the land is one with the Dragon.”
Thom repeats this a little later. This is something Rand does not know, cannot know, unless there was a bizarre conversation off camera. And Rand really doesn't seem to know much about the Dragon, this would be a weird place to start.

Brandon stated that he thought it was LTT/Rand's subconscious. But that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either. First, to the best of our knowledge, LTT knows nothing about the Prophecies of the Dragon. I am pretty sure they were compiled after LTT died.

We also have no evidence that the LTT was "one with the land". Remember, that he was a first among equals, he was the leader of the fight against the shadow, but there were no prophecies (that we are aware of) regarding LTT. The prophecies all relate to the Dragon Reborn. I would think that if LTT were "one with the land" there would have been some record of it. At the least, some of the female Aes Sedai probably would have gone along with his plan to seal the bore.

________________________________________________

So, there you have it. Three dreams in EOTW that I think are prophecy. The first one on its own I wouldn't swear by, but I see no other plausible explanation for the second and third.

maleshub
05-16-2012, 04:12 PM
The only dreamer I am aware of is Egwene. The Aiel dreamwalkers might also be dreamers; but do they have as many dreams as Egwene. I would assume they have to be counted as dreamers; but we don't get many PoV's of their dreams. The only one I remember is Aviendha telling Rand of 3 dreams in the LoC.

So comparing Rand with Egwene, I would say that he isn't a dreamer. Or if he is; then he is a very weak one.

Terez
05-16-2012, 04:43 PM
Sorry if this has been brought up before, I did a search but didn't find anything...

Also, I know that Brandon denied this in a Twitter conversation w/Terez and others, but I think this may have been one of those minor points on which Brandon answered off the cuff without consulting the notes.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure he was too. I asked him some more questions along those lines in my interview with him, and I think he did the same thing. Of course, I don't think RJ quite had dreaming worked out in the early books, either, so it's an iffy subject.

(Most of the arguments regarding the first and third dreams were put forward by Terez in her chat with Brandon. http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/WOTRR_10_January_2011 )
I could have explained it to him better if it hadn't been on Twitter. :(

We next see Rand in a maze of mirrors.
See, the mirrors I'm not sure about, because of this:

What he saw could not have been there, not unless he and Hopper were standing in midair. He could see nothing of the wolf or himself, as if neither had bodies at all – that thought nearly tied his stomach into knots – but below him, as clear as if lit by a thousand lamps, stretched a vast array of mirrors, seemingly hanging in blackness though as level as if they stood on a vast floor. They stretched as far as he could see in every direction, but right beneath his feet, there was a clear space. And people in it. Suddenly he could hear their voices as well as if he had been standing among them.

"Great Lord," one of the men muttered, "where is this place?" He looked around once, flinching at his image cast back at him many thousandfold, and held his eyes forward after that. The others huddled around him seemed even more afraid. "I was asleep in Tar Valon, Great Lord. I am asleep in Tar Valon! Where is this place? Have I gone mad?"

Some of the men around him wore ornate coats full of embroidery, others plainer garb, while some seemed to be naked, or in their small-clothes.

"I, too, sleep," a naked man nearly screamed. "In Tear. I remember lying down with my wife!"

"And I do sleep in Illian," a man in red and gold said, sounding shaken. "I know that I do sleep, but that cannot be. I know that I do dream, but that does be impossible. Where does this be, Great Lord? Are you really come to me?"

The dark-haired man who faced them was garbed in black, with silver lace at his throat and wrists. Now and again he put a hand to his chest, as if it hurt him. There was light everywhere down there, coming from nowhere, but this man below Perrin seemed cloaked in shadow. Darkness rolled around him, caressed him.
Ishamael seems to have a number of constructs in Tel'aran'rhiod—places where he can take people when he pulls them from their dreams. One of them is the mirror place, one of them is the Ways-like place, and one of them is his penthouse apartment overlooking the Pit of Doom, the one with the nifty fireplace.

Rand cannot see his reflection in the Ishmael dream because Ishmael does not know what he looks like. So how come he can see himself in the mirrors in Chapter 24?
It's worth noting that Ishamael doesn't seem to be able to see him in the mirrors in this dream, either. Rand can see himself, but Ishamael can't see him. Now, it could be that Rand escaped into his own dream and accidentally pulled a memory of the mirror-place with him.

As for the third dream, I made an argument at Dragonmount (http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/70354-deleted-scene-in-teotw/) recently that there is evidence for a deleted scene involving Thom.

greatwolf
05-17-2012, 05:48 PM
With the exception of the LTT not being one with the land bit, I agree with you. But LTT had to have been one with the land in the aol since he was the dragon then, and the phrase is very specific - The Dragon (not Dragon Reborn) is one with the land. It is the Dragon (LTT) that makes the Dragon Reborn (LTT/Rand amalgam) one with the land.

But I tend to see it this way: If the dragon is one with the land, then he needs regular information and update on the state of the land, kind of like the way we receive input from nerves and other sensory organs. One of such would be the ability to the dream. And interpret them. Of course the pattern could put someone close to him with the ability when needed, but that in itself would be a further departure from the Rand-Jesus theme.

Anyway what matters is BS' big reveal that the taveren share dreams. I guess we should have seen it coming with all the emphasis in the early books about strong channelers imposing their dreams on others. Its likely Ishamael keeps geeting drawn to LTT's dreams but instead of confronting the dragon, he kept bumping into Rand, Mat and Perrin.

maleshub
05-17-2012, 06:05 PM
Rand is the Dragon. I don't see two entities "Dragon" and "Dragon Reborn." You could say that LTT was the "Dragon Reborn" compared to the previous Wheel cycle's Dragon.

In Demandred's PoV in the Pit of Doom, the DO mentions specifically his ancient enemy the Dragon with reference to Rand (or so I understand).

GonzoTheGreat
05-18-2012, 03:33 AM
It's worth noting that Ishamael doesn't seem to be able to see him in the mirrors in this dream, either. Rand can see himself, but Ishamael can't see him. Now, it could be that Rand escaped into his own dream and accidentally pulled a memory of the mirror-place with him.
It may be that it is not so much the reflection which Ishamael is looking for as the knowledge within the subject of who that one is. In that case, when Rand saw himself, and acknowledged (on some level) that he was the Dragon, then Ishamael would have noticed that. Rand did see himself, but did not draw the correct conclusion from it, so Ishamael still did not have enough to work with.

In Demandred's PoV in the Pit of Doom, the DO mentions specifically his ancient enemy the Dragon with reference to Rand (or so I understand).
Which may actually explain how LTT came to be called the Dragon. Just as the Forsaken got their names from their enemies, the Dragon may have been initially named by Friends of the Dark because that was the DO called him.

Boli
05-18-2012, 04:13 AM
At the end of TGS Rand in an instant sees all his past lives; each subtely different from each other but the same.

Mordien right now has something of that ability as well according to interviews; (it remains to be seen how much Rand remembers). And Ishmael was thought half-mad in the AoL as he claimed that the battle between the two of them went on since the beginning.

Could it be possible within his dreams he caughes flashes of his previous memories... doubley so as Ishmael is trying to contact him in the dream. hmmmmm, has anyone considered Ishmael and Rand were linked in EoTW through the dreams? it just came more to the fold once they met in SG?

Terez
05-18-2012, 05:08 PM
It may be that it is not so much the reflection which Ishamael is looking for as the knowledge within the subject of who that one is. In that case, when Rand saw himself, and acknowledged (on some level) that he was the Dragon, then Ishamael would have noticed that. Rand did see himself, but did not draw the correct conclusion from it, so Ishamael still did not have enough to work with.
I don't know. It's hard to see how he would have been able to tell if Rand acknowledged himself as the Dragon unless he said so out loud. He didn't know who Rand was until he saw Rand face-to-face (and saw him channeling). Lanfear claimed she would have known him either way, but she never had the chance to prove it. And Ishamael claimed the same, but he did so to all three boys, so obviously he was full of it.

At the end of TGS Rand in an instant sees all his past lives; each subtely different from each other but the same.

Mordien right now has something of that ability as well according to interviews
Curious as to what you're talking about here.