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fionwe1987
05-17-2012, 10:11 AM
I was initially going to post a version of this as a reply in the thread on why Rand has to die. The thing grew in the telling, so I thought I'd post it separately here.

Its in the context of "the sum of all souls" that I find TAR interesting. TAR is the sum of all the worlds, and it seems like a sort of collective unconscious. It surrounds all the worlds, is the "third constant" apart from the DO and the Creator, and it exists "between the threads of the Pattern".
It is the resting place of the Heroes (who are the course correctors of the Pattern when it strays).

More importantly, TAR is the place where humans can create. They cannot create a soul, but as we saw with Egwene's TAR-Bela, what is created there can have very real characteristics. But most importantly, a powerful Dreamwalker can rope in a soul from the "Dream pool" and take it into a folding of TAR were she/he has ultimate control.

What if that is what the Creator is doing? What if "reality" is but a folding of TAR, one which is maintained by the Creator's own will. Souls that are "alive" are roped into this fold, souls that are dead return to a "soul pool" which is exactly what the "dream pool" looks like.

This would explain several things. Why the Aiel say, "life is a dream", for one. For another, Asmodean calls the Skimming space the "dream of a dream", which also fits very neatly with this.

The Dark One also seems to have TAR levels of control over the Blight and Shayol Ghul. And the Blight has no reflection in TAR because it is "another world". What if the Dark One's corruption is basically his Power altering the rules the Creator has imposed on the fold of TAR that is "reality"?

This idea would also explain why the Wise Ones consider it so wrong to enter TAR in the flesh. Doing so, your entire soul has left "reality". In a way, you are "dead", and out of the reach of the Pattern's influence.

It would also explain why, when Rand and crew were stuck for four months in the Portal Worlds, playing out the variations, Egwene had a feeling that Rand wasn't "there". I think she, like Ishamael and Lanfear, can track ta'veren, and she was unable to feel Rand in the Pattern because he had side-stepped it for a time.

This can also give a very good explanation for how Rand is able to hold back the Dark One's touch, and why the clouds part around him. We have a very good clue what is going on:

He gathered his will. Those scents would vanish. They did, replaced with the scents of
summer. Grass, hedgehogs, beetles, moss, mice, blue-winged doves, purple finches.
They appeared, bursting to life in a circle around him.
He gritted his teeth. The reality spread from him like a wave, blackness fading from the
plants. Above him, the clouds undulated, then parted. Sunlight streamed down. The
thunder calmed.

What Perrin tried to do in TAR, Rand is able to in reality, since the moment he became one with his Champion persona. I think that is the ability the Creator grants his Champion, and while Rand may be unconscious of the mechanism of it, I think this is what he's doing, and this is why apples can grow in the matter of seconds from lifeless trees!

Basically, I think life and reality as the characters know it is a dream. It is a Dream maintained by the Creator. The Horn of Valere can bring TAR in contact with this (and any other) reality, and that is how Rand, in the end, will be able to fight the DO and Seal him away.

I'm sure some of this is very incoherent. But... thoughts?

Ishara
05-17-2012, 10:53 AM
Initial thoughts? Very interesting!

Secondary thoughts? You shouldread Great Lord of the Dark's blog post on the idea that the Bore is in TAR (http://http://greatlordofthedark.blogspot.ca/2012/05/new-theory-bore-is-in-telaranrhiod.html). He said he would get aroundto posting it here sooner or later, but I think it merits cross-referencing at the least. PLus, there's a nifty diagram.

I'll need to mull the rest over. There are certainly philosophical ramifications, but what could it mean with regards to the "real" world. How could this be used to help win the Last Battle?

fionwe1987
05-17-2012, 11:40 AM
Initial thoughts? Very interesting!

Secondary thoughts? You shouldread Great Lord of the Dark's blog post on the idea that the Bore is in TAR (http://http://greatlordofthedark.blogspot.ca/2012/05/new-theory-bore-is-in-telaranrhiod.html). He said he would get aroundto posting it here sooner or later, but I think it merits cross-referencing at the least. PLus, there's a nifty diagram.
Thanks! I'll look into it.
I'll need to mull the rest over. There are certainly philosophical ramifications, but what could it mean with regards to the "real" world. How could this be used to help win the Last Battle?
I have some ideas there. For one, I think what "Singing" does is reaffirms the "dream that is reality" but also allows you to change it. I think that is why, for example, Loial is able to sing a tree trunk into a quarterstaff, or a bowl, or any fantastic design he wants. But he is also able to sing to the oak tree that is the last piece of the Green Man and affirm its reality, and ward it against the "conflicting" reality of the Blight.

Incidentally, I think the Green Man's space was a pocket realm (like a Vacuole) in the Blight that he was able to hold to his vision of reality.

The Green Man sighed, the wind sighing through thick-leafed branches. "Then it has come again. That memory remains whole. The Dark One stirs. I have feared it. Every turning of years, the Blight strives harder to come inside, and this turn the struggle to keep it out has been greater than ever since the beginning. Come, I will take you."

It was within this protected reality that the Aes Sedai chose to place the Eye and its important contents. And this reality could move around in the Blight, remember, and was attracted by Need.

Now, what I think will happen is that Mat will sound the Horn. But the purpose of the Heroes won't be to fight the Shadowspawn physically. Instead, their powers will be used to hold to the reality of the pocket dimension created, one where the "creative" powers humans get in TAR are now possible in "reality". Egwene, Perrin, the wolves and the Wise Ones will now manipulate this reality, and using Need, speed to Shayol Ghul. At SG, they will hold the Dark One's reality bending at bay.

How exactly the sealing will be achieved I'm not sure of. Several possibilities come to mind. Perhaps singing will be involved. Rand being "one with the land" will definitely be involved. Maybe they all have to deny the reality of the DO, like with a nightmare (though this seems cheesy). Perhaps the Dreamwalkers, Perrin, and the wolves and the Heroes will engage the DO in a struggle for control over "reality", distracting him as Rand does whatever he has to.

Callandor may also be involved. RJ certainly gave us a hint of how:

The stones around him faded almost to mist; the Stone faded. Reality trembled; he could feel it unraveling, feel himself unraveling. He was being pushed out of the here, into some other place where nothing existed at all. Callandor blazed in his hands like the sun till he thought it would melt. He thought he himself would melt from the surge of the One Power through him, the flood that he somehow directed into sealing up the hole that had opened around him, into holding himself on the side of existence. The Stone became solid again.
He could not even begin to imagine what it was that he did. The One Power raged inside him till he barely knew himself, till he barely was himself, till what was himself almost did not exist. His precarious stability teetered. To either side lay the endless fall, obliteration by the Power that coursed through him into the sword. Only in the dance along the razor’s sharp edge was there even an uncertain safety. Callandor shone in his fist until it seemed he carried the sun. Dimly within him, fluttering like a candle flame in a storm, was the surety that holding Callandor, he could do anything. Anything.

Its almost uncanny how this sounds like the Sealing of the bore and the holding up of reality. And it happens in TAR. Rand thinks he's using the flood of saidin from Callandor. But is he? Or is the sword in some way giving him more power over TAR? After all, using it, he's able to reverse really complex meldings of TAR that Ishamael is throwing at him, yet we know that the One Power's reality in TAR can be easily denied. Why wasn't Ishy able to do that? I think his TAR attacks are being blunted not by the OP, but by the greater control the sword gives Rand.

And if Callandor's major purpose is to aid in "bending reality" in some way, that could explain why it has no buffer. It could be a sa'angreal that functions unlike the others by changing "reality" to allow a channeler to draw in more of the Power. Or maybe all sa'angreal work that way, but Callandor is special in that it has no limits. Certainly, its "reality bending" can account for how it may further weaken the user. It seems clear from this passage that using Callandor to impose your will on something opens you up to losing your mind (this may also be how it "magnifies" the taint. When the taint existed, your use of Callandor lessened your sense of self, and so you could resist the taint less). And this may explain why "all that he is can be seized".

And Rand's certainty that with Callandor, he could do anything... taint induced madness or is this a hint. After all, in TAR, you can do "anything", but within the limits of your will. Maybe with Callandor, the extent of your will is increased, allowing you to do "anything" like the Creator possibly can in TAR? Maybe you can recreate the Seal on the DO's prison? Make it so he can't touch the world?

In this scenario, perhaps the "three shall be one" refers to TAR, the DO's version of reality, and "reality" as perceived by the characters. Perhaps that prophesy indicates that when these three "dimensions" are made into one with the HoV and the Dreamwalkers/wolves holding this reality to be one, the DR will hold the blade of light and seal away the DO?

GonzoTheGreat
05-17-2012, 11:41 AM
What about the Amayar, who killed themselves in the real world in order to "wake up from the dream"?

Crispin's Crispian
05-17-2012, 11:53 AM
Wow. GLotD is right on the money. Why do I think so? Because I posited almost exactly the same ideas at Tel'aran'rhiod and the Nature of the Dark One's Prison (http://theoryland.com/chronicles.php?user=sdog&page=a).

Introduction

Based on several pieces of evidence, I believe that the Dark One’s prison may be either in Tel’aran’rhiod, or that the Unseen World is directly involved with it.

Development

I will briefly discuss the various aspects of the WoT that I believe point to my thesis, and then summarize and tie them together in the conclusion.

Outside the Pattern

According to all sources, the Dark One’s prison is outside the pattern. We read this in the BWB and it is referenced throughout the series. Based on Verin’s description of Tel’aran’rhiod in TDR (Ch. 21, “A World of Dreams”), we know that the Pattern and the Mirror Worlds are the “warp and woof” of the weave, while Tel’aran’rhiod surrounds and/or intersperses them all. If this is true, we can think of a giant quilt (the Pattern) surrounded by a cloud (TAR). In order for the prison to be outside of the Pattern, it must be either in Tel’aran’rhiod, or just outside of that cloud that surrounds the quilt. This may mean that TAR sits between the Dark One and the Pattern, acting as a barrier.

The Third Constant

According to Verin (TDR, Ch. 21, “A World of Dreams”), the three constants of reality are the Creator, the Dark One, and Tel’aran’rhiod. Furthermore, Verin notes that if the DO is freed in any one world, he is freed in all. Egwene, understandably, finds this quite confusing, but Verin writes it off as part of the Dark One’s paradoxical nature. I believe there is a bit more to this. As noted above, TAR surrounds and infuses all aspects of the Pattern. If TAR acts as the prison for the Dark One, it stands to reason that opening that prison will give the DO access to every part of the Pattern. If his prison is part of TAR, it touches and infuses every world, so he is imprisoned on every world, as well. What better prison, for a constant of nature than another constant of nature? The Pattern may be too dynamic and flexible to act as a suitable prison.

Lanfear and the World of Dreams

According to all sources, Lanfear “claimed” TAR as hers after migrating to the Shadow. Although Moghedien thinks her skills are superior, she still considers Lanfear a formidable opponent in TAR (tFoH, Ch. 25, "Dreams of Galad").

We also know that, while she was Mieren, Lanfear led the team of scientists that discovered the thinness that was the Dark One’s prison. It stands to reason that her expertise in TAR may have come from her time as a scientist. Indeed, she may have been researching TAR when she discovered the prison.

The Dark One and Souls

We know that the Heroes of the Horn and wolves exist in Tel’aran’rhiod after death and before rebirth. There may be evidence that all souls exist there at one point or another, as well. We also know that the Dark One is called the “Lord of the Grave”, and has some control over the souls of the dead. Perhaps he has access to those souls precisely because TAR is part of his prison.

The Nature of the Pit of Doom

By all indications, the Pit of Doom seems to be a surreal place. Demandred (LoC, Prologue, "The First Message") and Moghedien (CoS, Ch. 25, "Mindtrap") both reflect to themselves that the sky as seen through Shayol Ghul is not the same as the sky as it appears outside the Pit. In the same sections, Demandred notes that "the strange was ordinary here", and Moghedien thinks, "[r]eality was clay to the Great Lord here..." A strange reality that is easily molded to one's whims is reminiscent of the Dream World, as experienced by Egwene and her counterparts. Could the “thinness” of the Pattern around the DO’s prison bring those in the Pit closer to TAR, such that the DO can manipulate it as Egwene and the WOs do the Dream World?

Moreover, how were LTT and the 100 Companions able to imprison all 13 (well, 12) Forsaken, and the DO, at the same time? Perhaps because the 13 were in Tel’aran’rhiod at the Pit, thus much further outside the Pattern (and into TAR) than they would normally be. The nature of the Seal, itself, is an issue to be debated elsewhere.

Conclusion

From all of this circumstantial evidence, there is a distinct possibility that the Dark One's prison exists in, or consists at least partly of, Tel'aran'rhiod. While the exact physical or logical construction is almost impossible to deduce from the evidence, one can imagine that Tel’aran’rhiod physically surrounds the Pattern. As such, in order to touch the Pattern, the DO must penetrate TAR.

If the cosmology of the WoT Universe (and all of its worlds) is simply a pattern surrounded by a bubble of TAR, the Dark One may exist outside of it, along with the Creator. In this case, the Dark One is not truly imprisoned, but rather restricted from touching the Pattern. To the inhabitants of the Pattern (our heroes), however, it would appear that the DO is imprisoned, because they perceive their reality as all encompassing.

If we think of the cosmology as a metaphorical wheel (the Wheel of Time), with different worlds existing on different layers along the spokes, the DO's prison can take on a different structure. In this case, the DO is imprisoned inside the "hub" of the Wheel, but is unable to touch the Pattern. This would explain why some of the Forsaken (Aginor and Balthamel) suffered the ravages of time much more strongly than did the others. They were closer to the outside of the Wheel, and thus subject to time's passage. This is also consistent with the DO's statement to Demandred: "Even I cannot stop outside of time" (LoC, Prologue, "The First Message").

Alternatively, we can think of the cosmology as a sphere, with each world existing on the surface. TAR, then, would be inside the sphere, and would thus have contact with all the worlds. Similarly, the DO's prison would be inside the sphere, so that if he were released, he would have contact with all of them. Whether the DO's prison is surrounded by TAR as TAR is surrounded by the universe is unclear, but this visualization does suggest that TAR either stands between or constitutes some part of the DO's prison.

All in all, we have little evidence to prove such cosmological theories in any one direction. Whether the author will deign to reveal his ideas to us, or even if he has completely hashed out the philosophical and physical structures of his universe, remains to be seen.

Practical Application

The only truly practical application of this theory lies in the Dragon Reborn's effort to reseal the Dark One's prison. If the prison lies in or is part of TAR, some portion of Rand al'Thor's battle will have to be fought there. However, until we know the specifics of the relationship between TAR and the Prison, speculation is difficult. One might suggest that Rand will have to travel to the Dream World to begin or end the battle, if TAR is truly a barrier between the DO and the real world. There are also theories that the Mirror Worlds accessed by the Portal Stones are part of the Dream World. This may mean that Rand must travel to one of those in order to win the Tarmon Gai'don.

It is also possible that Lews Therin's cuendillar seals are focus points in the real world for the seven points of the seal in TAR. This has implications regarding the Taint on saidin, because that Taint is often almost tangible when the Seals are near. If the Seals are focused in TAR, and that Taint is evident through the Seals, it is possible that the Taint is somehow affecting TAR. But how would we know if this were the case?

A troubling issue for this theory lies in the fact that we see little or no direct impact on TAR from the Dark One. We would expect, if TAR lies between his prison and the real world, to find his touch permeating the Unseen World constantly. Instead, TAR seems relatively peaceful when compared to the real world, where the DO sends his minions, changes the weather, and causes bubbles of evil. However, the nature of TAR may limit the DO's direct effect upon it, or may limit our (the character's) perceptions of how TAR should be. TAR is nearly always in flux, and the nightmares and dark thoughts of those touching it often create frightening situations. How easy could it be to detect the influence of the DO in this dynamic and possibly dangerous world?

One way to account for this possibility is to suggest that the DO's prison is closer to the real world at a certain point (the Thinness at Shayol Ghul). That is, the Tel'aran'rhiod barrier and the Pattern it surrounds are both very thin at that point, and the DO can exert his influence more strongly. If this were the case, we would expect the DO to concentrate his efforts at that point, rather than trying to permeate the entire Dream World with his evil. An analogy might be a deeply frozen pond: a person trapped under the ice would concentrate his or her efforts at breaking through the thinnest point. Thus, we would see less direct impact on TAR, itself, and more impact surrounding that thin piece of the Pattern. This is consistent with the odd properties of Shayol Ghul and its surrounding areas.

Crispin's Crispian
05-17-2012, 12:00 PM
Incidentally, I think the Green Man's space was a pocket realm (like a Vacuole) in the Blight that he was able to hold to his vision of reality.
Good call.


Now, what I think will happen is that Mat will sound the Horn. But the purpose of the Heroes won't be to fight the Shadowspawn physically. Instead, their powers will be used to hold to the reality of the pocket dimension created, one where the "creative" powers humans get in TAR are now possible in "reality". Egwene, Perrin, the wolves and the Wise Ones will now manipulate this reality, and using Need, speed to Shayol Ghul. At SG, they will hold the Dark One's reality bending at bay.

How exactly the sealing will be achieved I'm not sure of. Several possibilities come to mind. Perhaps singing will be involved. Rand being "one with the land" will definitely be involved. Maybe they all have to deny the reality of the DO, like with a nightmare (though this seems cheesy). Perhaps the Dreamwalkers, Perrin, and the wolves and the Heroes will engage the DO in a struggle for control over "reality", distracting him as Rand does whatever he has to.

Callandor may also be involved. RJ certainly gave us a hint of how:


Its almost uncanny how this sounds like the Sealing of the bore and the holding up of reality. And it happens in TAR. Rand thinks he's using the flood of saidin from Callandor. But is he? Or is the sword in some way giving him more power over TAR? After all, using it, he's able to reverse really complex meldings of TAR that Ishamael is throwing at him, yet we know that the One Power's reality in TAR can be easily denied. Why wasn't Ishy able to do that? I think his TAR attacks are being blunted not by the OP, but by the greater control the sword gives Rand.

And if Callandor's major purpose is to aid in "bending reality" in some way, that could explain why it has no buffer. It could be a sa'angreal that functions unlike the others by changing "reality" to allow a channeler to draw in more of the Power. Or maybe all sa'angreal work that way, but Callandor is special in that it has no limits. Certainly, its "reality bending" can account for how it may further weaken the user. It seems clear from this passage that using Callandor to impose your will on something opens you up to losing your mind (this may also be how it "magnifies" the taint. When the taint existed, your use of Callandor lessened your sense of self, and so you could resist the taint less). And this may explain why "all that he is can be seized".


I love this. This is exactly where my mind has been going since the cover of AMoL was released.

The key is Tel'aran'rhiod (I've always thought that), but I do know think that Callandor has some special property that will allow Rand's soul to manipulate the Pattern to reseal the Bore.

fionwe1987
05-17-2012, 12:04 PM
What about the Amayar, who killed themselves in the real world in order to "wake up from the dream"?
Nice catch!

Crispin's Crispian:

While I'll have to read through your theory fully, I don't think that the DO's prison is in TAR. I think it is outside TAR. TAR is the outer fringe of "Creation", the "Walls of the DO's prison" that we keep hearing about. The Bore and SG are encroachments into TAR by the DO. He's imposing his will there, it is his power that is supreme there, and the use of the OP there is forbidden (though it is possible to use it there).

Crispin's Crispian
05-17-2012, 12:10 PM
Nice catch!

Crispin's Crispian:

While I'll have to read through your theory fully, I don't think that the DO's prison is in TAR. I think it is outside TAR. TAR is the outer fringe of "Creation", the "Walls of the DO's prison" that we keep hearing about. The Bore and SG are encroachments into TAR by the DO. He's imposing his will there, it is his power that is supreme there, and the use of the OP there is forbidden (though it is possible to use it there).

I see. I'm definitely open to that possibility, too. As I said:

In order for the prison to be outside of the Pattern, it must be either in Tel’aran’rhiod, or just outside of that cloud that surrounds the quilt. This may mean that TAR sits between the Dark One and the Pattern, acting as a barrier.

...

While the exact physical or logical construction is almost impossible to deduce from the evidence, one can imagine that Tel’aran’rhiod physically surrounds the Pattern. As such, in order to touch the Pattern, the DO must penetrate TAR.

However it exists, the Dream World is going to be involved.

fionwe1987
05-17-2012, 12:14 PM
However it exists, the Dream World is going to be involved.
I agree with that completely.

Great Lord of the Dark
05-17-2012, 08:56 PM
Nice theory Crispin. I wonder if I had read it or one of the many partial theories that touch on part of it in the past. I recently did a brief scan of Theoryland's related theories and did not take note of it, and even felt comfortable that I was venturing into territory that had been walked through, but not fully explored. I plead ignorance, and maintain this theory was developed independently. (In fact, what finally set me in this direction was two references in different books about omnipresent Towers that are the same in all worlds. The rest comes from the thematic elements and slow pace of Tel'aran'rhiod revelations while miantaining its importance throughout the series, which I discuss regularly on my blog)

I submitted my theory here the day after posting on my blog, but I don't know how long the queue is these days.

If I added anything of value to what you had already said, it includes the diagram which is easier to interpret than Verin's lecture. I also posited a mechanism by which the Bore's location enables the Dark One's abilities. That mechanism is the same one that Egwene uses to enter Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh. At the meeting of the two worlds created when entering Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh, reality is as malleable as Tel'aran'rhiod, but the changes have the permanence of the real world. A location has been created with the properties of both.

Note I am not saying his prison is in Tel'aran'rhiod, but rather that the Bore into his prison is in Tel'aran'rhiod. A subtle difference. His prison can be next door to the Creator's house, so long as it borders Tel'aran'rhiod where a Bore can be drilled.

Knowing several other theorists are leaning in a similar direction is as good as confirmation for me.

Dom
05-17-2012, 10:39 PM
Excellent theory/analysis.

I much prefer the "TAR" is the barrier between Creation and "the prison" angle (I tend to agree there's no prison - the prison is His greatly lie, he's free with the Creator outside the Pattern).

A few thoughts:

- The so-called Weakness in the Pattern which is not localized except in Reality where space-time exists and are "solid" and through which Shai'tan could be sensed could well exist on purpose. It may be thanks to it that the Creator can introduce Death as part of the cycle in the system. Death isn't final in Creation unless the soul is seized/destroyed. TAR may have prevented this altogether before the Bore.

- As has been theorized a lot, TAR acts as a kind of collective inconscious, with archetypal denizens etc. If TAR stands between Creation and the DO, and the weakness is there to allow physical death within Creation, it could be the DO is also allowed to brush TAR in a small extent to allow Evil to exist inside as a concept/pulsion, and leave a choice. That may be because Death/Decay/Evil is foreign to the Creator's nature. He undertands the concept, and their role in creating a balanced (aka harmonious), evolving system, but by his nature he can't provide any of that himself, so he uses that "mere brushing" of Creation by Shai'tan.

- Even if the DO is "closer" to TAR, it doesn't necessarily follow his touch is necessarily greater on TAR. As Dreamwalkers point out, TAR is in a constant struggle to bring its reflection back to what it should be, which some suggests is a reflect of the fact it's a kind of collective inconscious. Everything in Creation inconsciously contributes to keeping TAR as it is - the shifting represents conflicts between inconscious, which is coherent with the fact those shiftings concern most impermanent, often changing elements, elements a lot of "threads"/souls interact with as well... doors, toys and so on. In effect, it could mean the DO would be in constant fight of willpower against TAR - and to achieve what exactly? It's only a reflection. His "grip" on TAR may be limited to the Bore, SG, the Blight... to prevent anything coming in TAR to the "real" Bore. Even if TAR is the layer in which the Bore was created by Beidomon's team (as I suggested myself in the other thread), it appears the TP can rip holes through the Pattern's layers. Maybe the barrier He can't break is precisely TAR, which Beidomon's team graciously did for Him, and the DO then ripped a Bore through all layers. His "problem" may always have been that he still hasn't managed to enlarge the hole in TAR - it's the sole layer designed to keep him out, and it resists Him.

- The whole description of The Collapse fits rather well with the notion it affected first the collective inconscious. Perhaps the DO has abandonned efforts to spread his will globally on TAR as too great an effort, it doesn't mean he always did, or there won't be a point soon, after the Breaking of the Seals, where that won't again be worth the effort. Perhaps it's the last seal that prevents it, in fact.

- I totally love the idea that Lanfear first felt Shai'tan in TAR, perhaps the only "place" he could conciously be felt initially... by a Dreamer.

- What prevents Lanfear from "continuing her good work" after she joined the Shadow, to try to enlarge the Bore in TAR? What happened, what do they don't have anymore, that the Shadow don't concentrate their efforts on that?

Terez
05-17-2012, 11:03 PM
As for Singing, I like the idea of the Aiel men singing the dirge for the slain for Rand at Shayol Ghul. But I agree that Tel'aran'rhiod is probably going to be important to sealing the Bore, and I've liked the idea that the Horn would facilitate it for a long time, too.

Tamyrlin
05-17-2012, 11:37 PM
This discussion opens a new avenue to the relevance of Lanfear's interest in the Horn in TGH (and might relate to another reason she was in the Tower), beyond wanting it as a tool to help lead Rand to glory. Lanfear wanted (and still wants) to defeat the Dark One and Creator and rule; her focus on the Horn might have T'A'R related significance, as she'd be intimately aware of useful weapons needed to defeat to the Dark One and how they'd need to be used.

Great Lord of the Dark
05-18-2012, 07:29 AM
I agree that what keeps Lanfear from further working to enlarge the Bore is partly a desire to correct her mistake of opening it in the first place. Her interest in the Horn is more directed at bringing Rand to full Power. She will either get Rand as her lover as he seals the Bore, or she will deliver Rand to the Dark One when He wins. Either way, her ego is sated as she stands atop the heap.

Edynol
05-18-2012, 07:45 AM
I dunno. For some reason I get this feeling that Cyndane's part in AMoL will be anticlimactic and she won't do much of anything but die at the hands of some random channeler like the other reborn forsaken save Moridin for being at the wrong place at the wrong time. Like Aran'gar and Osan'gar, one killed by one of their own Black Sisters and the other BF'ed by Dark Rand when he destroyed that palace. I really hope it isn't so, but other than Moridin, we haven't really gotten much from the other reborn Forsaken.

Crispin's Crispian
05-18-2012, 10:48 AM
Nice theory Crispin. I wonder if I had read it or one of the many partial theories that touch on part of it in the past.
...
I submitted my theory here the day after posting on my blog, but I don't know how long the queue is these days.

Well in all fairness, I wrote the theory 10 years ago under the name SDog. I have no idea if I ever officially submitted it to anything other than the Chronicles. I didn't think you ripped it off--don't worry. I am just excited to see some of the same evidence used to come up with some of the same conclusions. We must be right! :p


Note I am not saying his prison is in Tel'aran'rhiod, but rather that the Bore into his prison is in Tel'aran'rhiod. A subtle difference. His prison can be next door to the Creator's house, so long as it borders Tel'aran'rhiod where a Bore can be drilled.

Right. I agree that his prison may not be in the Dream World at all. I've always liked the idea that the Dark One is not imprisoned in anything, he's just locked away from the Pattern. That doesn't really explain why he so desperately wants to get into it, though.


As Dreamwalkers point out, TAR is in a constant struggle to bring its reflection back to what it should be, which some suggests is a reflect of the fact it's a kind of collective inconscious. Everything in Creation inconsciously contributes to keeping TAR as it is - the shifting represents conflicts between inconscious, which is coherent with the fact those shiftings concern most impermanent, often changing elements, elements a lot of "threads"/souls interact with as well... doors, toys and so on.
And this plays right into the idea that the Heroes of the Horn are archetypes made real. They exist as the collective understanding of their legends, which are augmented every time they are spun out into the Pattern. But when the Horn calls them, they become more than the sum of their legends.

Maybe the barrier He can't break is precisely TAR, which Beidomon's team graciously did for Him, and the DO then ripped a Bore through all layers. His "problem" may always have been that he still hasn't managed to enlarge the hole in TAR - it's the sole layer designed to keep him out, and it resists Him.
This is an interesting idea. The nature of TAR is stable, because it represents the collective understanding of the world through each turning. In some ways, it is the most resilient reality there is, and so would make a nice countermeasure to the chaotic influence of the Dark One. But I may be just talking out of my arse here... ;)



- The whole description of The Collapse fits rather well with the notion it affected first the collective inconscious. Perhaps the DO has abandonned efforts to spread his will globally on TAR as too great an effort, it doesn't mean he always did, or there won't be a point soon, after the Breaking of the Seals, where that won't again be worth the effort. Perhaps it's the last seal that prevents it, in fact.
This is another good thought. It begs the question of whether a positive influence on Tel'aran'rhiod can affect the actual consciousness of living people.

As for Singing, I like the idea of the Aiel men singing the dirge for the slain for Rand at Shayol Ghul. But I agree that Tel'aran'rhiod is probably going to be important to sealing the Bore, and I've liked the idea that the Horn would facilitate it for a long time, too.

My very first theory at Theoryland was something about how Perrin would help the Aiel return to the Way of the Leaf and they would Sing the Bore closed through Rand...somehow. Of course it was destroyed in a matter of minutes by some veteran poster I think.

But I think there is merit to the idea that the seed singing could relate to Rand's connection with the Land. Not really sure how, though.

Great Lord of the Dark
05-18-2012, 12:24 PM
We both know veteran posters are never as right as we are. Nice to see you again, (or finally recognize you with that hat on)

codetoast
05-18-2012, 12:41 PM
Time:

I havnt totally thought this through in how it applies to your theory, but feel free to toss it around. So based on the concept of a wheel of time, I imagine a wheel simply spinning representing time's passage, while people remain stationary. To understand this, people don't naturally travel in time, time just simply passes by them. But the portion on which everyone lives is merely a band on that wheel, of which their are thousands of bands closer to the center and thousands closer to the rim. The passage of time occurs as length of wheel passes us by, thus on inner bands the we see only small amounts of the wheel pass us by and on outer bands we see much more pass us by even though both bands are on the same wheel(powered by the same motor). There are several ways time passage changes in the WoT:
1)Stasis Box: This could be a way to get to place something at the center of the wheel so time doesnt pass it by.
2)The dark ones prison: Could be seperate from the wheel of time(probably not since even the dark one can't step out of time -LoC), but may also be a band close to the center. Since balthemal and aginor aged, then more time passed them by and thus they could have been caught between bands, or in the wrong bands.
3)T'A'R, Passage of time changes from faster to slower than reality. Thus in line with Verin's explanation, it exists across all bands. This also explains why things that are not permanent, like letters and people have little or no presence there. While things like trees and rocks and buildings that stay in a spot for a while show up there.
4)The ways: The ways aren't a change in the passage of time but they are a change in distance. (see the travelling section below)
5)Portal stone worlds: The world in which rand, hurin and loial went could exist in a band closer to the center than rand. They travelled the same geographical distance as fain and perrin, matt etc. but less of time had passed them by.
6)The portal stone incident in TGH: Rand loses time as he uses a portal stone to get directly to another geographical distance but he picked a time a few months in the future. I believe the portal stones allow you to pick an instance of "reality", a geographical location, and a time. (For geographical location see the below travelling section). So now draw a wheel. Then select a band on that wheel(band is an instance of reality). So now rand wanted to jump to the same instance of reality but chose a different time. So draw a line from a point on the band to a point a little ways down in a direct line. Notice how a straight line traverses some of the inner part of your wheel. Well, think of how many bands or possible "realities" that Rand has crossed. This would definately explain the visions of alternate realities that his party experienced.

Building on this idea, I propose things with more permanence throughout time(turning of the wheels) reside in the center, thus to the creator/dark one, a new turning occurs everyday.

The Pattern:

Now to explain how the wheel and the pattern are related. The phrase "The wheel weaves as the wheel wills" is something we hear a lot in the wheel of time. This indicates the wheel weaves the pattern. And thus the pattern is woven through time. I picture the pattern as a bunch of strands streaming along with time, and at certain points they become redirected by ta'veran or by channelers making small weaves of them to do a certain thing. The strands have a natural weave, but certain people who can channel, are able to manipulate the pattern using the true source. Ta'veran on the other hand, I would argue have no natural control over the weaving but merely have more weaves directed to them that often manipulate around them favorably. This does however come at a cost as the world is also negatively influenced by a ta'veren in balance. Ta'veren dont influence for good or bad, they influence in balance as much as anyone else, they just have more natural influence because of the strands of web working around them.

I think that the wheel of time does not consider time a constant, according to my wheel idea, I believe there is "time dilation" at play. Thus I believe that all WoT things exist at a certain spacetime coordinate. Without getting too much into relativity, I believe I can explain this by saying time is a dimension by which the coordinates of something are determined. For instance, I can select a time, a longitude, a latitude and a height.

I also believe the pattern adds another dimension based on choices. In the band that Rand Loial and Hurin entered using the portal stone, they were also in another instance of reality in which the trollocs had killed all people and creatures we only know of existing in seanchean roam free in rand's continent. If the choices we make form a large tree of events with branches for every decision made, or random action, then there is a dimension that exists in which a point along its axis represents the some of all decision outcomes and random actions. Thus the portal stones use manipulations in the pattern to transport people from one coordinate in the spacetimeinstance system to another position.

Wild guess: if T'A'R is a world that extends across several time bands, then Finnland extends across several instances of "reality". Maybe this is why ta'veran cause their world to become delicate. They somehow know how to read the pattern, following weaves through time, decisions and places

Travelling:

So now this is how I think traveling works. Female travelling is done by manipulating the pattern to pinch two geographical coordinates together. The reason you have to know the place you are travelling from is because you need to familiarize yourself with the pattern where you are at. I think Elayne comments after the bowl of the winds incident that working with the power, allows you to learn a place faster(correct me if I'm wrong). This doesn't seem to hold true for the ashaman after Dumais Well.

As for the other ways of travelling:
Skimming: You need to know the place you're going to(Much like jumping from place to place in T'A'R). I wonder if a place changes enough, if you'd lose the ability to skim to it, just like how the girls couldnt go directly to the amyrlin's study in TAR because it had changed from suin's to elaida's. The way I think it works is that you enter a world much like T'A'R in the flesh but its all blackness around you, you sort of have limited control over what you can create like platforms or ships and stuff(similar to egwene creating Bela in TAR). Time doesn't seem to change how it passes you so it must be on the same band in the wheel of time, but it moves you to the place in the pattern you know.
The Ways: I think this is similar to skimming. It might even be the same place that you go to. But the Stedding Aes Sedai who built it probably had a way of making platforms permanent and making signs and such. Perhaps they needed ogier's help in doing this, could have been a combination of the ogier singing magic to build the gates and the skimming magic to create the ways themselves.

All of the above is merely speculation on how I picture the pattern to work and such. I hesitate to commit to something that works in my mind to be able to explain it since it is fantasy and anything can be explained as a new unknown concept. But occasionally an author feels the need to explain how his universe works technically and I believe RJ would have taken the time to come up with a full explination of which we only get glimpses.

Tamyrlin
05-18-2012, 01:24 PM
Wild guess: if T'A'R is a world that extends across several time bands, then Finnland extends across several instances of "reality". Maybe this is why ta'veran cause their world to become delicate. They somehow know how to read the pattern, following weaves through time, decisions and places



I'm never sure how many people have read all of the available information we have pulled from Jordan/Sanderson. Here are a few of the things we've been told: the Finns inhabit a Parallel World, and are creatures with souls, threads in the Pattern.

In other words, this means their world is another Real World, although T'A'R does touch/surround their world as with Rand's world.


As for the other ways of travelling:
Skimming: You need to know the place you're going to(Much like jumping from place to place in T'A'R). I wonder if a place changes enough, if you'd lose the ability to skim to it, just like how the girls couldnt go directly to the amyrlin's study in TAR because it had changed from suin's to elaida's. The way I think it works is that you enter a world much like T'A'R in the flesh but its all blackness around you, you sort of have limited control over what you can create like platforms or ships and stuff(similar to egwene creating Bela in TAR). Time doesn't seem to change how it passes you so it must be on the same band in the wheel of time, but it moves you to the place in the pattern you know.

The Ways: I think this is similar to skimming. It might even be the same place that you go to. But the Stedding Aes Sedai who built it probably had a way of making platforms permanent and making signs and such. Perhaps they needed ogier's help in doing this, could have been a combination of the ogier singing magic to build the gates and the skimming magic to create the ways themselves.


While still a theory, the space of the Ways have similar if not identical properties as the Skimming Space, and about ten years ago we posed this connection. While this research is old, it remains relevant to discussion of T'A'R/Void, etc. http://www.theoryland.com/studies.php?page=unseenworld

codetoast
05-18-2012, 02:17 PM
I started reading WOT about 10 years ago. I reread it twice in preperatino for the last two books. In my rereads is when I became interested in what other people thought was happening and only very recently did I stumble upon this huge collection of gathered research.
After a few weeks of reading, I've been brave enough to make a few posts, but I havn't done the extensive research you guys have. This goes to show how far I am behind, but maybe it will bring up some old concepts for you guys to think about anyways

Tamyrlin
05-18-2012, 02:39 PM
I started reading WOT about 10 years ago. I reread it twice in preperatino for the last two books. In my rereads is when I became interested in what other people thought was happening and only very recently did I stumble upon this huge collection of gathered research.
After a few weeks of reading, I've been brave enough to make a few posts, but I havn't done the extensive research you guys have. This goes to show how far I am behind, but maybe it will bring up some old concepts for you guys to think about anyways

I think it goes to show as far as the Ways and Skimming, that you are thinking alike even without the research, which is cool (most people don't note the connection between the Skimming Space and the Ways, so kudos). And the Finns/Parallel World stuff, that's something not many pay attention to anyway, so no worries. Don't let my reply stop you from posting.

I'll quote the answers this weekend (about the Finns) so you have some context around that with which to craft new ideas.

codetoast
05-18-2012, 03:36 PM
"Wow. The Dragon Reborn chapter 27 has a cool little foreshadowing for the end of A Memory of Light that I'd never noticed before."

Brandon Sanderson tweet.

This chapter is about egwenes first trip to Tar. I'll reread it and see if there is something in there that supports this.

Grig
05-18-2012, 05:28 PM
So with all this "the Dark One's prison is in TAR" or "TAR surrounds the DO's prison" does that mean the unseen eyes there are those of the DO?

Dom
05-18-2012, 09:53 PM
And this plays right into the idea that the Heroes of the Horn are archetypes made real. They exist as the collective understanding of their legends, which are augmented every time they are spun out into the Pattern. But when the Horn calls them, they become more than the sum of their legends.

Good summary. That's always been my favourite theory to explain the survival of legends/myth through the Ages. It's a mix of actual memories from a past Age that gets altered through time, e.g. the Forsaken, WOS, Breaking, LTT, Green Man, Avendesora, The Song in the Third Age, and mere scraps from earlier Ages which are now totally fanciful Gleemen tales.

However, this doesn't explain well the survival of some strong core figure/archetypes, and not even their rebirths do, as their lives are very different. It's exactly the same as Jordan's explanation that if you look at the two variants of the Pattern of an Age from afar, they look exactly the same. However, the closer you get, the more the differences are notable, and very close, once you lose the "greater picture", the two samples would appear to be completely different.

The same way, two Dragons barely sketched biographies would make them appear very similar, but if you compared chapter by chapter 2000 pages biographies, you might perceive patterns and similarities, but it's likely how different they are, and how different their lives, which would stand out.

So for an Hero to become archetypal, for his/her essence to even emerge and endure, it's fairly obvious their "complete" being has to be accessible to humanity through the Ages somehow, and that TAR acts as a collective inconscious definitely explains it best. You can dream of these heroes. I even think people can also dream about the Heroes' dreams/memories, which explains why something from Lanfear for instance will re appear as Lilith from memories of the Dragon in the middle of our "Age" (I tend to think Jordan envisionned that we remember several Ages, actually. Some have suggested the version of the AOL we had in this turning was the end of antiquity, the third age was the Dark Ages/Middle Ages dominated by fear of Satan, the crusades etc. - we may see better what's our equivalent of TG once we know how Rand seals the Bore, but the Age of Reason might suggest again there will be a link to TAR. In our turning, channeling wouldn't have been part of the variables. The sparkers are here, but they are schizophrenics, who once were sent on "Ships of Fools", or put into Knitting/Gardening groups by the Quakers, or kept in Bedlam under watch of their warders, or for the most insane, had metal collars with a metal pole, to keep them from attacking their doctors - a vile practice of some asylums that caused a massive scandal in Victorian London when it leaked and no doubt RJ's inspiration for the a'dam. One of his sources for Rand comes from a classic study of the guy who became patient-zero for schizophrenia (his name escapes me, I have a novel about him, a biography and excerpts from the Victorian case study by his psychiatrist somewhere). He was convinced he had a mission to save the World from a conspiracy to destroy it by... Napoleon. At Bedlam, he started getting obsessed with a cosmic machine, a cosmic Loom that weaved the air we breath and which controlled the universe and everyone in it (by various ways - including controlling people's thoughts and making them perform certain acts. He thought the English PM was under such a compulsion), and the Loom was operated by a band of villains, among whom The Professor who lead them, one guy who hated him deeply, a man who was actually a woman, a very beautiful young woman with gloves who pretended to be a prisoner of the others and wanted help, a scholar... They're not all there, I think he had just 7-8 villains and for 1 or 2 the genders don't match, and at least one of them was split in two characters (the beautiful lady was truly a lascivious whore who ensnared men IRRC, but a few of them have traits RJ used for the Forsaken). In another phase, he started to design the highest white palace, for when he'd triumph over the evil Napoleon and would be Emperor of the world. Those architectual plans, in his better moments, doubled up as a project for a new Bedlam....

Back to the heroes...

I think it may be the real purpose of hosting the archetypes in TAR: it's all part of the "corrective mechanism". The Heroes are so effective when they are born, because they appeal to the inconscious. It's also the Wheel's way to reintroduce concepts, warnings etc. It's why (fictiously, of course) we'd react so much to a figure like Hitler (a likely candidate for a rebirth of Moridin) for instance.

The "villains" are not Heroes. I rather think we remember them from memories of the Heroes who fought them. I think the villains become archetypal over time because their souls are tainted and in rebirths they repeat their patterns. I think the Wheel is giving them rebirths at proper times in a way not so different from the Heroes. They are archetypal "challenges" for humanity.

This is an interesting idea. The nature of TAR is stable, because it represents the collective understanding of the world through each turning. In some ways, it is the most resilient reality there is, and so would make a nice countermeasure to the chaotic influence of the Dark One. But I may be just talking out of my arse here... ;)

That would make two of us, I see it much the same way.

This is another good thought. It begs the question of whether a positive influence on Tel'aran'rhiod can affect the actual consciousness of living people.

I suppose the answer would be yes (eg: if the Creator touched it directly), but I think humanity has to make its own positive influence which will be reflected in TAR - it's one of the purpose of the world becoming One, I think. I think Rand may have to bring the world to an Epiphany. That epiphany, which I think would be reflected in TAR, may be tied to the sealing of the Bore. While I expect Rand/Nynaeve/Moiraine to link, I think Rand will realize the true meaning of that prophecy is actually Perrin/Mat and him becoming One. It's the true purpose of their colour swirls, and there's a tie to TAR, I think.


My very first theory at Theoryland was something about how Perrin would help the Aiel return to the Way of the Leaf and they would Sing the Bore closed through Rand...somehow. Of course it was destroyed in a matter of minutes by some veteran poster I think.

Not Perrin. I tend to think the return of the Aiel to the Way will be Rand's proposal to Aviendha to solve the problems she's seen in her vision - what would Aiel become if they want to avoid that war? "Return to who you really are". That's how Rand will save a remnant of a remnant (which may be more Aiel than we think... I think the second remnant of the verse refers to the Da'shain, who also called themselves Aiel, thus this concerns Tuatha'an as well as Aiel... well, not all Tuatha'an as many won't have enough Aiel blood to be able to Sing I suspect, their great disappointement will be they found the so-called "the Song" but most of them won't be able to use it, only the pure blood Aiel will, but they will be their guides to the Way).




But I think there is merit to the idea that the seed singing could relate to Rand's connection with the Land. Not really sure how, though.

I toyed with many Singing/Bore theories too. Singing might have some role (I suspect that's the true purpose of the WO who dreamwalk).

My reasonning isn't fully coherent (I don't have sufficient understanding of Physics to come up with a concrete application), but for what it's worth... To cleanse Saidin, Rand needed saidar and a force as vile as the DO's taint - a force which can't occupy the same "space" as the Taint, which was Mashadar. For the "endgame" I think Rand may possibly need the SL evil again, but he will also need the antithesis of Shadar Logoth, which is the Way of the Leaf (their power is Singing). SL comes from adopting accepting means, however evil, in the name of the Light (I tend to associate balefire with the SL theme, incidentally). SL can transform a spot of Creation into something totally evil, but an evil opposed to the DO. A SL-type victory against the DO would require turning the whole world and Rand into a SL, and that would destroy both Creation and the DO if they came in contact. Rand is One with the Land, and I tend to believe the "dark phenomenons" around him at the end where not all related to Shai'tan's evil.... many were the result of his fall into Mordred's philosophy that "The victory of the Light is All (that counts)". In TGS, this aspect grew in Rand and he was attracting his Arhidol to him, it was Masema (who intended to cross on Almoth) - the Wheel prevented it, through Faile. One of the purpose of Faile's kidnapping has always been to prevent/delay Perrin from bringing these fanatics who had resurrected the Mordeth philosophy to Rand. Rand's growing darkness was however attracting Masema and his followers to him (a negative aspect of being ta'veren...)

In any case, Da'shainism is the opposite of the SL philosophy: it's "The Light is Everything" even it means letting the Shadow win. RJ made the connection that it's the other end of the spectrum, but despite this being ultimate good, it's also the equivalent of SL in the end, both consisting of an opposite yet equivalent self-destruction. RJ made that theme very clear with the Amayar... if not for Rand, they would have no world to return to live their "Illusion" in.

In Jainism (from which RJ got much of his da'shain/Way of the Leaf stuff), in the End Days they stand doing nothing against the rise of their DO (or praying or perhaps chanting mantras or something - nothing to defend themselves anyway - they are even more non-violent than RJ's da'shain) and a Champion do the violence for them (the ultimate sacrifice, which is why they rever him... it's the link between the Da'shain and LTT in the AOL we are still missing, IMO. I think he got his Dragon title from Da'shain legends-prophecies. They believe themselves to be these 'Children of the Dragon' who is an avatar of the Great Serpent - avatar in truth, thus One with the Great Serpent who is Creation - the Great Serpent waking and riding the Winds of Time to fight for everyone while also being the Whole). After their "Last Battle" (I use WOT cognates, the Jain terms aren't that), they are "a remnant of a remnant", in the sense that they have these odd beliefs that they go through a cycle of Ages on the Wheel of Suffering in which they grow not only morally but also physically. In the final age (when they are so big they can touch the Moon, IRRC), their Champion rises and defeat the "DO" and it destroys them and the cycle restarts, with them very small. It sounds a pretty obvious remnant reference to me, anyway.

So I'm not sure at all how RJ intended to use all this, but I think practicioners of the Way/Singing could be a key factor.

I would expect the forces involved will be OP, TP, SL (Fain), Neo-Da'shain (Singing)

It's about balance in the end. I'm sure we'll find out RJ gave us the key to the finale years ago, when he explained that on a line you have SL (evil, as evil as Shai'tan) and the Da'shain (who strives to be as Good as the Creator) as two extremes, and fighting the Shadow was all about walking the fine line between the two.

The whole line of thought that Da'shainism is striving to be as Good as the Creator, accepting the cycle including death when it comes, the wind (the Aiel's "waking" from the Dream which is life) then rebirth sound an awful lot like how we now theorize the cosmology works. The Da'shain Aiel of old, I theorize, believed that "real life" was death, when you're the sum of everything, that incarnation was the soul's Dream. The Wise Ones used to be kind of Shamans, who could travel in Dreams the Afterlife. They're the origin of all those beliefs because by Dreamwalking they used to be able to see the Dead who were "complete" with all their lives integrated. That's why they have the taboo against entering TAR in the flesh.

I won't get too much into Nakomi (the Great Mother), but I think she is either a kind of dream/reflection of the Wise One who founded the Way of the Leaf, or her ghost... or maybe she's the female half of the Creator herself (her whole extremely passive role with Aviendha makes me think it's a very good possibility. She's not THE Creator in the sense that the Creator looks like a WO.. I believe she was rather a dream/reflection of the female half of the Creator, of the Aiel's Great Mother of old (which they have completely forgotten, this could be pre-AOL beliefs even. Their Goddess-Mother Nakomi and her Mate-Son whom they called the Green Man (AOL Nym were merely made to look like this old God, I think) - the dual God who gave them The Way of the Leaf. LTT rather described the Creator as a Gardener... I think Someshta, who was a Nym - a construct, was made in what once was the image of the Creator.. who used to be called The Green Man). The Way of the Leaf may be a true revealed religion, the counterpart to the Shadow... but revealed in Dreams, maybe. (of course if it's not the male half of the Creator who spoke to Rand in EOTW, then it follows Nakomi is not either the real female half of the Creator and poor Aviendha just got a one on one conversation in the desert with Shai'tan pretending to be the female half of the Creator, or using the ghost of the human founder of the Way of the Leaf... which means her vision in the Columns is a vision of the Future twisted by Shai'tan, to make her and the Aiel despair).

We have seen how Rand's soul is hurt - it's terrible what he must endure as Dragon. It's the Dragon's suffering the Da'shain try to avoid by the Way of the Leaf, for themselves and everybody else, so they don't harm their "whole self" in the "real life" of TAR or rather the normal "Afterlife" described by RJ which I think we'll find out next year is in the part of TAR affected by the Bore (like the rest, the Afterlife is everywhere, not a real physical location), thus the DO's window of opportunity to grab a soul. It "crosses" it somehow, like a scratch over the Bore. It's represented by the SL wound scratched over the TP wound in Rand's side.

Thematically what I think RJ intends to represent is that Rand will have to make that voyage through death, where the DO will have this window of opportunity.

But how this will be translated into an actual plot (because it's just themes, really)... I never managed to come up with something satisfactory.

A motif may be that Rand's soul first needs to be cleansed of SL completely, and then he must face his bond to Shai'tan through Moridin during his voyage through death.

Concretely the best I can come with is that Singing may be used to remove the SL wound from Rand's side.

The purpose of the SL wound may be to block Shai'tan from reaching to Rand through his TP wound (I have this image of an Hand... so SH). I suspect the SL isn't supposed to be there, that it's something Fain has accomplished as a "wildcard". He's done that in order not to let the Shadow have Rand's soul, which he wants to "eat" himself, SL-style. If Fain "ate" Rand's soul (killed him with the SL evil, absorbing his soul - Fain's power is growing through the series because he kills and "eat" souls, I think - or more concretely these souls become a kind of Shadar Logoth Source for him to draw power from... it's what Mashadar was to Mordeth... until Mordeth died. He wasn't absorbed by Mashadar, because he created Mashadar), the Shadar Logoth World would happen. So the SL wound needs to go first, because the final fight is between Rand and Shai'tan, and the SL wound prevents it. The force that may be able to remove the SL wound (thus defeat Fain's bid for Rand's soul) but "gently" by cleansing it rather than with an explosion like contact between it and the TP, would be the force produced by Singing.

Other than that I think post TG the purpose of Singing will be to enhance/magnify a power Rand began to show in TOM. That will be Rand's last "miracle", a full reaping to save the world and babies who will miraculously grow in mother's wombs (that might involve willpower from the parents...). Fruits, veggies, baby animals (including the rebirth of Hopper... yes, yes... one of Perrin's last scenes.. Rand will free the souls of those who died in TAR. It may actually be that since the drilling of the Bore no one is reborn except Heroes of the Horn, because Shai'tan is preventing release from the Afterlife... but he can't reach in it either, must catch the soul as they pass the threshold. But what of Elayne/Ilyena and Latra/Egwene and Mat/Aemon etc.... well, they're all Heroes of the Horn!)

Aviendha will have her "magical" quadruplets in the series's timeframe. She will give birth at the same time as Elayne (whose Hero-twins give birth to the Age), I think. This is this Age's final event, the counterpart of the Breaking - a miracle by which the Dragon heals the Land. Singing will be his magnifier - an equivalent of the CK.

I believe Aviendha will have four babies by accident :D She's supposed to have one, but because she's involved in a four people bond, she'll have four (one of which at least don't have Aiel colouring... that's because of Min). I think that bond to Rand might also explain why her children channel from birth. If that's rather just the bonding... there's gonna be a whole lot of AS/Asha'man babies all of a sudden.

Once Rand has done this Creator-like Deed, his reward as Dragon, all his "Epiphany" powers will be exhausted, he will stop being ta'veren and he's gonna go back to raising sheep with Min.

I have crazy ideas I know (if not Felix-crazy, hopefully!)

Likeness I'm getting close to the ending with this? I'd say 5% maybe.

I rather like my Rand makes babies grow magically for all those souls who died in TG idea, though!

Dom
05-18-2012, 10:12 PM
So with all this "the Dark One's prison is in TAR" or "TAR surrounds the DO's prison" does that mean the unseen eyes there are those of the DO?

I think they're rather the eyes of regular dreamers

Or they're the eyes of the dead in the afterlife.

That Shai'tan looks too isn't impossible, but I would imagine the feeling would be described as more evil then. I wouldn't rule out this will start happening once the last seal is broken...