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Terez
05-17-2012, 11:08 PM
I think our last poll on this is archived. So who do you think the Broken Wolf will be? I think it's Rand, and here (https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_993c9jzmgdv&revision=_latest&pli=1#Broken_Wolf)'s why.

Lo, it shall come upon the world that the prison of the Greatest One shall grow weak, like the limbs of those who crafted it. Once again, His glorious cloak shall smother the Pattern of all things, and the Great Lord shall stretch forth His hand to claim what is His. The rebellious nations shall be laid barren, their children caused to weep. There shall be none but Him, and those who have turned their eyes to His majesty.

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

And then, shall the Lord of the Evening come. And He shall take our eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him, and He shall take our skin, for our flesh shall serve Him, and He shall take our lips, for only Him will we praise. And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion, and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful. Let the screams begin, O followers of the Shadow. Beg for your destruction!

— from The Prophecies of the Shadow

GonzoTheGreat
05-18-2012, 03:37 AM
You should've added Valan Luca to the list. Now I had to go with Rand.

Edited to add:
An interesting bit is that the first one to be compared to a wolf in TEOTW is the Fade who frightens Rand and his friends right at the beginning. Considering the fact that that's Shaidar Haran in an early incarnation, one could say that he is "one whom Death has known" too.
I don't think it is him, but I do think it is a neat complication.

Zombie Sammael
05-18-2012, 05:18 AM
I've started to think it has to be Rand, but I still have some reservations about the wolf symbolism being obviously much stronger with Perrin, whereas a little digging is required to find it with Rand. I suppose that could be an example of hiding something in plain sight.

If it had said "Broken man, the one who Death has known..." etc then there could be no possible debate that it referred to Rand. The wolf thing could well be intentional misdirection, bearing that in mind. Also sub in some of the other animals Rand's been associated with such as lion; it's obviously him.

"Death" in my mind has to refer to Moridin, especially since it's capitalised, but Rand satisfies the requirements of being one who death has known (a reborn soul) and one who Death has known (known by Moridin).

Terez
05-18-2012, 03:52 PM
You should've added Valan Luca to the list. Now I had to go with Rand.
Sorry, I didn't expect Felix to be dropping by. But I did notice that he has been.

Res_Ipsa
05-18-2012, 05:20 PM
The use of the word "known" is often used to imply intimate or very personal knowledge. So either death has known the broken wolf in the sense that they have died before or it is implying some sort of quasi sexual meaning in the sense that the broken wolf has been laid bare before death.

I think the third paragraph which comes after the fall of the broken wolf means that it is not Rand. That is because I believe the Dark Prophecy like all prophecy has the chance of simply not occurring. In that case, it would be Ituralde who was saved and the prophecy was avoided by savior Rand.

To me, the idea of the one who death has known goes back to what Rhuarc said that: "for the young, death is an enemy they wish to try their strength against. For those of us a little older, she is an old friend, an old lover, but one we are not eager to meet again soon.

Death has certainly known Ituralde. Further, there is the concept of the final death (balefire) or at least an impression of different levels of finality so the DO is not necessarily Death.

With that being said, I could easily see Rand being the broken wolf because the wording itself is purposefully (unnecessarily) convoluted. I think this is a Brandon prophecy.

Terez
05-18-2012, 05:27 PM
I think the third paragraph which comes after the fall of the broken wolf means that it is not Rand. That is because I believe the Dark Prophecy like all prophecy has the chance of simply not occurring.
The only prophecies that have a chance of not occurring are those given after the Pattern started falling apart (around COT). All other prophecies are absolute. (Except the corrupted ones...and dreams.)

The Unreasoner
05-18-2012, 08:19 PM
Thought it might be useful.
Some thoughts (by me and a few others) from the old thread. I think it’s Ituralde, for the record:


They would gather their armies and ride when orders came from the Wolf; at least, so long as he held the King’s favor. They would even hide in the mountains and wait, at his order. Oh, they would chafe, and some would curse his name, but they would obey. They knew the Wolf won battles. More, they knew he won wars. The Little Wolf, they called him when they thought he could not hear, but he did not care whether they drew attention to his stature—well, not much—so long as they rode when and where he said.
From the CoT prologue



After Bashere came a lean Domani man in his middle years. Rodel Iturralde. He looked much the worse for wear, with dried blood on his filthy face his clothing ripped, and bearing a clumsy bandage on his arm. Rand had no visible wounds. His clothing was clean, though he insisted on still wearing that aged brown cloak. But Light, he looked tired."Rand," Min said, kneeling down. "Rand, are you all right?""I grew angry," Rand said softly. "I had thought myself beyond that."She felt a chill."It was not a terrible anger, like before," Rand said. "It was not the anger of destruction, though I did destroy. In Maradon, I saw what had been done to men who followed me. I saw Light in them, Min. Defying the Dark One no matter the length of his shadow. We will live, that defiance said. We will love and we will hope."And I saw him trying so hard to destroy that. He knows that if he could break them, it would mean something. Something much more than Maradon. Breaking the spirit of men ... he thirsts for that. He struck far harder than he otherwise would have because he wanted to break my spirit." His voice grew softer and he opened his eyes, looking down at her. "And so I stood against him."
From ToM Chapter 32.

Lo, it shall come upon the world that the prison of the Greatest One shall grow weak, like the limbs of those who crafted it. Once again, His glorious cloak shall smother the Pattern of all things, and the Great Lord shall stretch forth His hand to claim what is His. The rebellious nations shall be laid barren, their children caused to weep. There shall be none but Him, and those who have turned their eyes to His majesty.In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself. And then, shall the Lord of the Evening come. And He shall take our eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him, and He shall take our skin, for our flesh shall serve Him, and He shall take our lips, for only Him will we praise. And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion, and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful. Let the screams begin, O followers of the Shadow. Beg for your destruction!
From the prophecy.
It's Ituralde.
--
If it really cannot be Ituralde, my money is on Lan. Even if Rand does fall in Shayol Ghul, I doubt people will hear in time. And don't mention the pyre, if he fakes his death, he didn't fall to the Forsaken.
--
You could use those same arguments for Lan. He has courted death all his life; his death, Malkier's death, would be a huge blow to the hearts of man; and if he falls to the shadowspawn in the Gap (and whichever Chosen commands them) he may quite literally be consumed by Trollocs.

What of the use of the plural? Rand is strongly connected to Morridin, but not to the Forsaken as a group, except as the one who bound them.
--
Two final points:
The sentence structure strongly implies that the first among vermin and the broken wolf are two distinct people. I am curious, do you feel Rand is both?

Also, it seems that you think he will die (at Morridin's hand, no less) prior to arriving at Shayol Ghul, unless you think he slays the DO post-body swap. I always felt it would happen after, or simultaneously.
--
If knowing death can only refer to being long lost twins with Morridin or consciously recalling death; sure, you have Rand. Oh, and Mat. And the people of Hinderstrap who tried to take their own lives.

I don't see how Lan lacking significant wolf symbolism is a deal breaker for him but not Rand. Sorilea or even Rand himself using the word in connection with the Dragon does not a prophecy fulfilling Wolf make.

I would put Ituralde on par with Rhuarc for the Subjective Importance Scale, and so only slightly below Lan. Do you think that simply because he was late to a major role, the Foretellings will ignore him?

Oh, and Egwene's dream showed, to me at least, that the Betrayer of Hope was crushed, but is now bigger and badder than ever, not some sort of prophetic equivalence with the collective Forsaken.
--
After further research, it seems that a lot of the Rand position hinges on him merging with Morridin. Although I fully agree that they will merge, I fail to see how that alone is compelling for this argument. Also I suspect that victory will come with it, or too soon afterward to break anyone's spirit.

Also why assume the prophecy needs to be fulfilled? Are they not simply blueprints for victory? Lanfear and Moiraine seem to think so. And nothing I saw in the quote database seemed to contradict it.

And even if he is a wolf, he is far from a broken one.

Side note to anyone pulling for Perrin:
He is the Fallen Blacksmith. He stopped being a simple blacksmith, stopped being stubborn (his pride) and became a leader. And as I said before, the sentence structure strongly implies an identity for the wolf that is distinct from the three ta'veren.
--
I still think the timing is an issue. I read it to say that while the first among vermin is breaking, the wolf is consumed.
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Eta (in 2012! As in, now): Maybe Egwene pulls a Romney and is the 1stAV. It would certainly make Rand’s case stronger



###


From Zombie:
Egwene's dream shows that he leads them. And since there are only five of them left, I wouldn't be surprised if he's the only one left standing by then.
Why do you insist on ignoring what the prophecy actually says? It's "Towers", with an "s", in the English language indicating a plural. Whether the rest of the Forsaken are dead or alive, Moridin alone does not Midnight Towers make.

Quite a bit more misleading, actually. Rand is actually closely connected to wolves, if not as obviously as Perrin.
I wouldn't call a few off-hand comments, a possible naming source, and the fact that the wolves have given Rand a name a close link. Only the last one of those three is really compelling for a narrative point of view, but on its own, it's flimsy.



###


From Oatman:
That's very weak reasoning. In that case the prophecy could put the 'fear and sorrow' back with 'Him Who Will Destroy' or whatever it was. The line was included with the Broken Wolf for a reason.
The very specific phrasing of 'his destruction' implies further meaning than simply his death. In fact, the death of the Broken Wolf is never actually specified. He will fall, be consumed, be destroyed. Granted there is a strong implication of his death, but there is enough wiggle room in there, with the nature of WoT prophecy being vague and unspecific by design.
Moving the 'fear and sorrow' back, wouldn't make as much sense. The quoted passage of the prophecy follows a chronological order, where the eventual fate of the Broken Wolf causes the 'fear and sorrow'. If this is the first public action of the dark one since being released, it makes perfect sense. In fact, I would argue the closing line 'shall shake their very will itself' supports that version of events.
I'm not trying to suggest the Broken Wolf isn't anyone important, if they are mentioned in the prophecy they are bound to be. Hell, it could even be Rand, I just don't think it will be. Considering your argument for Rand revolved around him being the ONLY one who could fulfill the 'fear and sorrow' potion of the prophecy, I think I've made a strong argument for the possibility it could potentially be someone else. All your other reasoning was as weak as a Felix post.
--

Not really, since their reaction is to the destruction of the Broken Wolf, not the release of the Dark One.
Either I'm not explaining this well or you are making an effort to misunderstand me. The reaction is to the death of the Broken Wolf, yes. But it could well be the manner of the destruction which causes the reaction rather than the target of the destruction. As it is written the prophecy does not specify that the reaction is due to WHO it was done to. I would go so far to say the phrasing of 'his destruction' seems more specific to the action rather than the target.
you have to dig to come up with something tragic enough to compare to the premature death of the Dragon Reborn.
Who said it was as tragic? Who said it had to be to cause the reaction mentioned? I can think of many events which would cause fear and sorrow to the greater population without it being the death of Rand. Hell, even the Forsaken think the death of Perrin would be sufficient to meet the prophecy. It's easy to say the death of Rand is worst possible scenario, because it is. Doesn't mean thats the event the prophecy is talking about.
1. Intimate relationship with Moridin aka Death, and also remembers dying.
Nowhere does it mention the Broken Wolf has an intimate relationship with death. I made sure I put that point in the edit of my last post, I'll just get it back for you...

Also, the prophecy says that Death has known the Broken Wolf, not that the Broken Wolf has known death. Moridin knows many people who don't know Moridin.
So, that point isn't really a valid argument for Rand. Moridin had been playing around with all the main pieces for the majority of the story.
2. Tie to foreshadowing in TEOTW of his merge with Moridin, which uses the word 'consuming' and also explains what 'consumed by' means rather satisfactorily.
Broken Wolf is consumed by the Midnight Towers, not Death(Moridin). So, doesn't fit.
3. The fact that Rand's premature death is the only one that truly has the ability to elicit that sort of reaction.
Yeah, that's just false. Your saying the ONLY event that could possibly cause average Joe Army to fear and sorrow is the death of Rand?
Stuff like this is really easy to say. Harder to substantiate.
Much harder when the other person in discussion refuses to consider alternate interpretations of ambiguities.


###

And from Lightning:

If he is the Broken Wolf, why should his destruction bring "fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself"? In the grand scheme of things, he's just not very important.

The last problem is even more simple. Ituralde is insignificant. Elevating him to this level of importance- of being significant enough to warrant mention alongside the triumvirate of ta'veren, seems as silly as Felix trying to argue that Valan Luca is more than just an annoying bit character.
Seriously? You think Perrin or even Mat are better know to the people's of Randlands?

Mat might have been gaining recognition recently for his advantures but to the general public he is just that. And adventurer. Ituralde on the other hand is known (in fact has been known for years) to be one of the most important, successful, skillful, and influential generals in existence. The same way people react to Bryne, just the association of his name with a cause is enough to bring men flocking in.

When the large scale battles start Ituralde will be one of the dragons top three generals and responsible for defending large parts of the borderlands. His defeat and upcoming breaking (thus the broken wolf) will be quite disheartening to any one on the side of the light.

Dom
05-19-2012, 01:14 AM
It's definitely Hopper. It doesn't make sense at all to me Rand has two names in the same prophecies. The Broken Wolf is gonna fall nails it to me. He soars.. he falls... he's Hopper.



Hopper died "the final death". Supposedly. I don't believe anyone dies the final death in WOT, not unless Shai'tan wins. Meanwhile, those who die the final death are either grabbed by Shai'tan, or they reach the soul pool/afterlife but don't manage to get out.


RJ used a foreshadowing technique I call "patterns". That's variants of a story arc or scene.

Parts (maybe all) of the keys to the endgame are in EOTW.

Sometimes RJ offered half-variants, or third-variants. That's the case here. He separated Perrin from the others. That's the scene in EOTW where Perrin and Egwene shelter in the hand of Artur Hawkwing.

The relevant "pattern elements" are:

Perrin and Egwene are involved in that pattern.
Moonlight = Egwene may have brought her own new "Hero weapon" with her, which is the san'angreal she used in TGS to fight the Seanchan and which made her shine like moonbeams in the middle of the night, like a moon-goddess. The Moonlight may just be her, though.

Abandonned Stedding = ??? It's a "dead stedding". Could be a reference to TAR at Shayol Ghul or something.

Sheltering in the Hand of Hawkwing "hoping some of his justice might remain" = Justice, the sword. Perrin and Egwene will have Justice. In TAR? Why? What happened to the Heroes? Perrin has is axe, so now that would be his Hammer. So... it sounds like Egwene will have Justice, the archetypal sword of a TAR Hero.
The pool of water = Pit of Doom. Underneath are the Halls of Mourning/After Life. Artur Hawkwing's tomb is underneath, it's where the scholar found Justice, almost certainly.
A whitecloak: A Sunburst, but a sun in shadow. A "Darkened Sunburst" whose silhouette is seen in the moonlight. This sounds like Rand, the eclipse of Rand, thus it's actually Moridin maybe. Could be Rand dead-in-TAR possessed by Moridin, during the eclipse. Or just Rand against the Shadow...
Hopper jumping out of Shadow to save Perrin and kills the WC, and he dies. Perrin kills 2 WC with his axe.

The plot in "patterns" often have a negative ending in the first occurence, and as the series progress, they become more positive (or the opposite). But not always. Sometimes the outcome is a mirror of a previous pattern, sometimes it's a parallel. Usually, it's terribly difficult to use the patterns to speculate. They become obvious only when you have the two scenes to compare them. They are also just fragments, for instance Rand's or Mat's parts of that scene may be in another scene, so beside recognizing all the elements, it's not possible to make much sense of it all without figuring out which scene should be merged to form a full variant.

There are many variants of the same patterns too.

Here it's Perrin and Egwene hiding in the shadows. A whitecloak with a torch call for them to come out. He's silouhette by the Moon. Hopper jumps to rescue Perrin, kill the WC. Perrin and Egwene are captured.. by sunbursts with torches.

So Egwene and Perrin are "captured by the Light" = this is the end of the eclipse in the RW, Rand's rebirth?


So...

Hopper has died in TAR and is now in the Afterlife or in Shai'tan's possession.

Hopper will jump out of Shai'tan's grasp, fall and be consummed by the Midnight Towers.

Why would Hopper's destruction be cause for such grief?

Well it's not grief over Hopper.. it's grief over what Hopper attempted or did, a terrible sacrifice. What will Hopper attempt? Something Perrin is trying to accomplish with Hopper, in the endgame. After this Perrin will no longer have to be the "Wolf-King", his task will be finished, he's just another wolf now. "the last days of his pride".

Why this "will shake their very will?" Because it's the "belief" part of Belief and Order make strength, and it relates to TAR. The DP suggests a great deal the whole of humanity may be involved in the endgame. One with Rand, while DF are One with Shai'tan.

The Midnight Towers may be the Pit of Doom. Hopper will fall in it. Or they may be Cyndane and Moghedien - he will jump at them and be destroyed.. allowing Perrin to ????


What was Hopper trying to do? Save Shadowkiller, maybe (mirror, he killed the WC in EOTW). It's typical Hopper. He jumps, gets himself killed. It's happened to him twice already... Things go in triads in WOT. Hopper may however be the sole character who manages to die once in the RW, once in TAR, and the final death!

Hopper's "final death" would be the final purpose of the wolves in the series. He must be "one with Perrin" in this scene.

This is a scene that will happen while Rand is dead. Shai'tan can't spill his blood then? Of course He can, Rand is a Hero of the Horn. He won't be disembodied, nor will his TP wound disappeared of itself...

I think the secret of the wolves may be that they know Shai'tan has "grabbed" the Afterlife, that no one can get out for rebirth unless he allows it (I think he can't reach beyond the threshold of the Afterlife, though). The wolves are unable to explain it to Perrin, that's why someone had to become completely wolf to grasp the concept, and translate it in human language. That "wolf" is Boundless, that's why Hopper sent Perrin to him.


Wolves avoid this fate normally because their Afterlife is in TAR (was it, before the Bore, or because they are "wild" and touch their Wolf Dream in sleep they managed to stay in TAR since the Bore instead of joining the normal afterlife?). Now they don't go to the normal afterlife unless they die in TAR (I think. I don't believe the final death is really possible in the Creation system, only Shai'tan can bring it), and the Heroes of the Horn too as they don't die the normal way. Everybody else who died since the Bore is now caught in the Afterlife, unable to get reborn, until Rand removes the Bore and free those souls.


First Among Vermin: (vermin = humans to Shai'tan, first among humans = Moridin. This could be the translation of Nae'blis)

His Hand: Shaidar Haran

Broken Wolf: Hopper

Fallen Blacksmith: Perrin

One-Eyed Fool: Mat

Halls of Mourning: the Afterlife? (we might have to really rethink our Horn of Valere theories if that's so... might it be it also allows the Hornsounder to enter the Hall of the Dead? Where Mat will "gamble with Shai'tan" to rescue the souls? Why would Egwene be have Justice with her in TAR? - or is "the hand of Artur Hawkwing" simply representing the Dead Heroes in TAR? Does bearing Justice in TAR connects Egwene with Hawkwing currently in the RW. In EOTW she or Perrin thought this would offer protection. Could "walking the Halls of Mourning" simply refer to Mat having sounded the Horn and thus walk among the "dead").

Broken Champion: Rand

Then the final fight.


My best guess from EOTW would be that there are clues to complete this pattern in the scene where Mat pranks a WC, and the WC thinks it's Rand who did it.

The other related scene to this is Moiraine and Nynaeve and the rescue of Egwene/Perrin who are in danger of being killed by Byar. Moiraine is throwing Lightnings... Nynaeve hides in the shadows and agains the wind and she is cutting the lines of the horses (horses usually represent "destiny"/life threads or arcs from life threads... Egwene got an Amyrlin horse, and when she was under influence from Siuan, Siuan was trying to ride Bela, badly... then when Egwene decided to do the the Harbor blocking deed, she rode Bela once more... and it brought her all the way backward to noviciate to serving as an Innkeeper's daughter...). Nynaeve did that so the horses can escape causing confusion and the WC can't follow... She may be healing the Bore, or cutting the bond between Rand and Moridin before she can bring back Rand. I would think she's healing the pattern and cutting the bond at the same time since the mirror images is of her sending "life threads" in every direction. She however hangs to two horses.. one was Bela and has to be Egwene's life thread, the other is Rand's.

A big motif of that storyline is that Nynaeve is a mother hens running around trying to regroup her lost children... She may be the only one not in TAR, with Moiraine. Not sure what to make of Lan. A mirror suggest he will be dead, that the victory will simply release his soul.

That leaves Perrin killing WC... He now has the Hammer... Mirror? It may be Perrin who will rip Rand out of TAR with his Hammer.

Terez
05-19-2012, 02:59 AM
Interesting that no one has voted for Lan yet. I've always thought that he was the most likely candidate behind Rand (and in fact I listed them in what I deem to be rough order of likelihood).

yks 6nnetu hing
05-19-2012, 10:33 AM
i was actually thinking on this the other day, the wording - to me - suggests that the prophesy is now talking of someone else than Rand. So who... the emphasis for me is on the word broken and wolf designates a warrior. So, the most obvious wolfbrother Perrin is eliminated because he's not broken. Lan, on the other hand is absolutely blasted to pieces between the Broken Towers of Malkier and losing Moiraine. Nynaeve hasn't been able to put him back together, perhaps because she fell in love with him already broken so she doesn't see it as such a problem...

So. I voted Lan

The Unreasoner
05-19-2012, 07:54 PM
I wonder if 'the Broken Wolf' is Maradon itself.

-The city is pretty broken now

-The first attack could be the 'knowing death' part.

-Rand's quotes I used with wording similar to the Dark Prophecy were really talking about Maradon, not Ituralde.

-The timing issues I raised are resolved.

-If Tenobia's there, she can finally lead her troops in person like she's always wanted (and likely die doing it, according to Min).

-A city falling to the Shadow and (openly) being under the DO would be a big blow to the hearts of men.

BTW:
Ituralde/Maradon is now my top pick, Lan is still second. I'm just not buying Rand. The Midnight Towers here are the DO's regents, so the city falling to their control could be said to be 'consumed' by another force.

Kimon
05-19-2012, 09:09 PM
I wonder if 'the Broken Wolf' is Maradon itself.

-The city is pretty broken now

-The first attack could be the 'knowing death' part.

-Rand's quotes I used with wording similar to the Dark Prophecy were really talking about Maradon, not Ituralde.

-The timing issues I raised are resolved.

-If Tenobia's there, she can finally lead her troops in person like she's always wanted (and likely die doing it, according to Min).

-A city falling to the Shadow and (openly) being under the DO would be a big blow to the hearts of men.

BTW:
Ituralde/Maradon is now my top pick, Lan is still second. I'm just not buying Rand. The Midnight Towers here are the DO's regents, so the city falling to their control could be said to be 'consumed' by another force.

Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

There are languages in which reference to a city using a gender other than neuter would not be out of place, but such a use would seem quite odd in English. Moreover, were one to apply a specific gender to a city, feminine would be much more typical - such as urbs (feminine in Latin), polis (feminine in Greek), cité and ville (both feminine in French), and stadt (feminine in German)...

The Unreasoner
05-19-2012, 11:18 PM
There are languages in which reference to a city using a gender other than neuter would not be out of place, but such a use would seem quite odd in English. Moreover, were one to apply a specific gender to a city, feminine would be much more typical - such as urbs (feminine in Latin), polis (feminine in Greek), cité and ville (both feminine in French), and stadt (feminine in German)...
Well, it's not perfect. It's not impossible that the New Tongue has masculine/feminine nouns though. It could be something as simple as 'the language of prophecy' (cities may not have sexes, but wolves do), a side effect of having the Broken Wolf metaphor. I've always thought the Dark Prophecies were spoken by people held in the Towers at Imfaral. Even though Imfaral was under Imperial control a long time, It may be that whatever 'prophets' were held there spoke a different dialect, or another language altogether.

Again, it's not perfect. But neither is Rand (currently the most popular). The most common theory on Rand has timing problems, plural/singular problems, and it seems to refer to Rand twice.

Tomp
05-20-2012, 02:35 AM
I've already voted on Rand.

However.
During last night I went through the facts.
Wolf
Has known "Death"
Broken

I came up with a name that's not been mentioned here yet and I wonder what you think of it.

Padan Fain (or Mordeth, or "the creature")

1. He was the Dark one's Hound (wolf). Probably via some form of compulsion by Ishamael.
2. He has "known" Ishamael (aka Moridin, aka Death)
3. He was broken and his information was "distilled" (he was certainly broken before Mordeth started to take control in tGH).

The only problem is the part of his destruction will bring fear and sorrow. But when I looked again those are two different sentences and "may" not be about the same person/thing.


In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

Maybe I'm stretching here.
Any thoughts on this?

Terez
05-20-2012, 02:53 AM
There don't appear to be any prophecies about Fain, which I have speculated might have something to do with his sidestepping the Pattern, whatever that means. I mentioned that in my arguments concerning the First Among Vermin, since Fain is a candidate for that one. Min doesn't see any viewings around him, and while it's not exactly unusual for her to not see viewings around non-channeling people, he is rather important.

GonzoTheGreat
05-20-2012, 04:04 AM
I would say that one of the consequences of Fain having sidestepped the Pattern is that it is impossible for prophecies about him to exist.

That said, it is possible to interpret the "... his destruction ..." not as Fain being destroyed, but as Fain being the destroyer. That would seem to make the rest of it (apart from the sidestepping nitpick) quite believable.

Tomp
05-20-2012, 05:48 AM
Just to argue the point.

Fain sidestepping his fate (the pattern or whatever) means that when the prophecies were written he had a fate.
The eventual prophecies concerning him becomes void, when he sidesteps it.
That doesn't mean a prophecy couldn't be about his original intended fate.

Terez
05-20-2012, 01:32 PM
Except we know that prophecies are invulnerable unless the Pattern is destroyed. I don't think we would have been told that if there were exceptions.

fionwe1987
05-20-2012, 04:06 PM
Except we know that prophecies are invulnerable unless the Pattern is destroyed. I don't think we would have been told that if there were exceptions.
The problem is, if there are no Prophesies about Fain, then that means the Pattern anticipated him sidestepping the Patter, which means it should have been able to foretell that.

GonzoTheGreat
05-20-2012, 04:21 PM
The problem is, if there are no Prophesies about Fain, then that means the Pattern anticipated him sidestepping the Patter, which means it should have been able to foretell that.
Maybe at first, the Pattern couldn't bother because he was too insignificant. And then, when he became more significant, the Pattern just plain couldn't.

fdsaf3
05-20-2012, 04:51 PM
For me, the idea that Rand is the "broken wolf" doesn't pass the gut check test. Other characters are more prominently connected with wolves, so it's probably one of those other characters referred to in the dark prophesies.

Tomp
05-20-2012, 05:02 PM
Maybe Brandon will provide another clue before release.
(Hope he reads this) ;)

Dom
05-20-2012, 09:18 PM
The problem is, if there are no Prophesies about Fain, then that means the Pattern anticipated him sidestepping the Patter, which means it should have been able to foretell that.

Why would it?

Fain was fairly irrelevant to the bigger picture until he merged with Mordeth.

Foretellings are almost never about details. The details can change massively. Fain used to be a detail.

Also, Mordeth was a "ghost" or at least dead and disembodied but not in the soul pool for some reason. We have no idea if and how non-Hero dead people are dealt with by the Wheel (they don't have a life thread in the pattern, that's how much we know), let alone the soul of someone who died but somehow managed to escape the normal afterlife...

That's most likely one of the factors that turned Fain into a wildcard. One major factor is how insane he's become. The Wheel works by input/feedback. Someone who's insane becomes much less controllable, because the decision making is often totally irrational. The Wheel pulls in one direction to try to obtain one result, the madman reacts irrationally and screws it up. It's very difficult to apply any corrective mechanism on someone like this. With Fain it's far worse, as there are two wills in play. The Wheel pulls Fain in one direction, but it's Mordeth who calls the next shot...

Prophecies have surfaced connected to Mashadar/SL (re: the Cleansing) but no prophecy is connected to Fain, that we know of.

The big question is whether Fain is nearly big enough a wildcard to make prophecies derail, and if he is, if he is enoug of a wildcard to make prophecies involving ta'veren derail (which would be far more difficult).

final death
05-31-2012, 10:30 PM
Except we know that prophecies are invulnerable unless the Pattern is destroyed. I don't think we would have been told that if there were exceptions.

Didn't Moiraine say that a prophecy could fail if the one mentioned in the prophecy was killed before completing it.

Davian93
05-31-2012, 11:02 PM
And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

This is the key descriptor to me for the prophecy. The list of people on the Light that would cause such fear/sorrow is pretty damn small. Basically, IMHO, it comes down to Perrin or Rand with Rand being the far more obvious choice as the Light expects Rand to die AT the last battle, not before it as it seems he will.

My money is on Rand dying at Merrilor somehow and Mat saving the day by forging a truce as all the key people involved trust him (Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve all respect him as he has saved them and they know his worth, Perrin does as well and Mat is the only Randlander who can bring the Seanchan in.) Even Bashere respects him significantly due to his military abilities. The Aiel respect him as the man who took down Couladin. Sorry for the tangent but that's how I see it going down. Rand will die within the first 100 pages of ToM (not counting prologue pages obviously).

Delirium
06-01-2012, 11:51 AM
That said, it is possible to interpret the "... his destruction ..." not as Fain being destroyed, but as Fain being the destroyer. That would seem to make the rest of it (apart from the sidestepping nitpick) quite believable.

This actually brings an interesting angle to interpreting this. From this perspective, would someone like Isam/luc also be viable?