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Heinz
05-22-2012, 10:38 AM
First off.. how did the COTW theme (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5669)miss this one? :p At least, I searched the archives and couldn't find anything.

Anyway, just finished tGS in my read-through. As I recall, not much screen space is given, nor a final fate suggested, for Elaida in ToM. If I'm remembering wrong on that, I'll soon find out.

So what will her fate be? Will the sul'dam-damane issue never be resolved in any Last Battle agreements, and she remains damane for the rest of her life? Will she be freed.. and then what insofar as her relationship to the Tower is concerned? Exile, I would assume. Will she be freed for the Last Battle, and enact some sort of betrayal due to Fain's influence on her mind? Or will she go down in a blaze of glory and redemption in the Last Battle?

I have obeyed like a good little reader and have come to dislike the character. Yet I somehow find that I hope its the last item there. I don't think the damane issue will remain unsettled, and her freedom and survival would be.. awkward. Left with betrayal or redemption at the last, I somehow find that I hope its redemption. I suppose because I know she started as completely pro-Light, if strict, harsh and ambitious. These are not damning traits, however.

Anyway, was wondering if I was off-base and glimpses of her fate have already been given.

Ishara
05-22-2012, 11:57 AM
Our last glimpse at Suffa:

TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 47 - A Teaching Chamber
"Show us what this woman can do," Selucia said, Voicing the words Fortuona had signed to her. Melitene patted the damane on the head. "Suffa will show the Empress-may she live forever-the Power of slicing the air." "Please," Suffa said, looking pleadingly toward Fortuona. "Please, listen to me. I am the Amyrlin Seat." Melitene hissed, and Suffa's eyes opened wide, obviously feeling a blast of pain through the a'dam. The damane continued anyway. "I can offer great bounty, powerful Empress! If I am returned, I will give you ten women to take my place. Twenty! The most powerful the White Tower has. I-" She broke off, moaning, and collapsed to the ground.
...
Melitene was sweating. She looked to Selucia, speaking quickly, nervously. "Please explain to the Empress of us all-may she live forever-that my eyes are lowered for not having trained this one properly. Suffa is amazingly stubborn, despite how quick she is to weep and offer others in her place." Fortuona sat for a moment, letting Melitene sweat. Eventually, she signed for Selucia to speak. "The Empress is not displeased with you," Selucia Voiced. "These marath'damane who call themselves Aes Sedai have all proven stubborn." "Please express my gratitude to the Greatest One," Melitene said, relaxing. "If it pleases She Whose Eyes Look Upward, I can make Suffa perform. But there may be further outbursts."


I agree that the issue of sul'dam and damane will not be resolved in the very short time we have left, and unless there's some sort of Harry Potter-esque epilogue, we may never see a resolution now that the Mat-Tuon Outriggers won't be written.

So, I don't see Elaida being freed from the collar that we'll know of, and without that I don't see any possibility of redemption or glory. All she can do is obey, or be abused till she does. Not a happy fate, and yet for someone with her hubris, it sort of fits.

Truthfully, I think that her passing Travelling to the Seanchan was her legacy, and that is the end of her as far as we're concerned: an extended lifetime as damane.

GonzoTheGreat
05-22-2012, 12:27 PM
If she is released from the Oaths then she could have an even longer lifetime.

Enigma
05-22-2012, 04:15 PM
I could be remembering this wrong but I thought that when asked about Elaida's fate RJ hinted that some of it would be revealed in the outrigger novel he had planned for Mat & Tuon. As I said this could be complely a wrong.

In any event being given damane training can change people. Egwene survived because she was rescued early and has a very strong core belief in herself.

Elaida on the other hand does not have the same inner strenght. She might be strong on the outside but she has always come across to me as a very emotionally brittle character. I would not be surprised if she resisted for a time and then one morning woke up and decided to be the most perfect damane she could be. Given the way the Damane are tortured its not an unrealistic possibility and then even if she was freed the old Elaida we know and hate would be effectivly gone.

Tomp
05-22-2012, 04:29 PM
Also
Egwene had friends and visitors to make her cope and hope.

Elaida has no friends
and she knows it.

Terez
05-22-2012, 04:37 PM
Pretty sure the damane situation will be resolved. Not sure what that means for Elaida; perhaps Egwene will agree to allow certain prisoners to be kept. Perhaps Elaida will simply be stilled, or killed.

Kimon
05-22-2012, 04:59 PM
Perhaps she'll cross paths with Liandrin. That might have interesting results...

Heinz
05-22-2012, 05:00 PM
I cannot imagine certain prisoners would be allowed to be kept. At least not on leashes anyway. This is assuming the damane issue is resolved (I'm of the belief that it will).

I didn't find any foretellings or viewings that implied one way or the other about Elaida. Nothing requires her to exist. And to be sure, she now seems about to pass into obscurity as a character after giving Traveling to the Seanchan. But she's been a driving support character for some time now.

If there was implication that her fate would be more revealed with the outriggers, then perhaps we won't see much of her in aMoL as she's just another channeler with the Seanchan during the Last Battle for the moment - damane or former damane, however that particlar situation falls.

Enigma
05-22-2012, 05:08 PM
We don't actually know if the outrigger novels are going to be written. In any event RJ did say that not every loose end would be tied off and this might be one of them. On the other hand I think Brandon has said that an Encyclopedia will be released about a year after the last book and if the outrigger novesl are not written and the last book does not show us what happens perhaps it would be detailed in the encyclopedia.

RJ did not kill off to many main or secondary characters. The good guys tend to die quickly where as the male villins also tended to die but his famale villins were not so lucky. Moggy and Lanfear have ended up as practical slaves of Moridin. Moggy had a date with SH first and I'm not sure if Mesaana did but she ended up abused first then a vegetable. Liandirn is still alive and well but for somone one obsessed with power and position she is blocked from channeling and force to display herself in a very revealing outfit day after day in the very bottom of the social ladder of the Seanchan empire. The former head of the Red Ajah whose name escapes me is on her way the Waste as one of the most cruel Shaido Wise One's personal toy.

I don't know about anyone else but I'm seeing a pattern here. The question is did RJ consider Elaida a villin? If he did its not looking so good for her.

Tomp
05-22-2012, 05:10 PM
I think she'll be trained and conditioned for some time before being used in the field.

I think Elaida's fate mirrors that of Galina's, she gets a lifetime of pain and suffering for her "sins".

Enigma
05-22-2012, 06:39 PM
I think Elaida's fate mirrors that of Galina's, she gets a lifetime of pain and suffering for her "sins".

I'm not sure I would equate Elaida's misguided, arrogant stupid fain touched actions quite the same as Galina No 2 in the Black Ajah and her deeds. Elaida was many things but not a darkfriend.

Not to mention if she had not overthrown Siuan, the Tower would have been united and probably captured Rand for his own good long before he got the Black Tower up and running. Not to mentin she did set some of the Sisters hunting for the BA which helped get Egwene elected to the top joy and help route out the Black Ajah.

FelixPax
05-22-2012, 09:01 PM
Elaida's promise to obey "the Queen", Elayne and Morgase, has plot importance for AMoL book.

If pushed, Elaida/Suffa will obey Morgase and Elayne before doing whatever her Sul'dam commands. Really. Three Oaths.

Elaida's role in the pattern is extremely important. Mat Cauthon and his Moons, will be wed literally underneath Elaida/Suffa, thus fulfilling her Foretelling. It's a #Parallel of Urien's telling of 'Aiel Prophecy', spoken to Uno, Ragan, Mat, Perrin & Verin in The Great Hunt book.




Perhaps she'll cross paths with Liandrin. That might have interesting results...

Agreed.

Liandrin is one of the many women, Matrim Cauthon will wed in AMoL book. A Group Marriage to protect them all.

Kimon
05-22-2012, 09:26 PM
Elaida's promise to obey "the Queen", Elayne and Morgase, has plot importance for AMoL book.

If pushed, Elaida/Suffa will obey Morgase and Elayne before doing whatever her Sul'dam commands. Really. Three Oaths.

Elaida's role in the pattern is extremely important. Mat Cauthon and his Moons, will be wed literally underneath Elaida/Suffa, thus fulfilling her Foretelling. It's a #Parallel of Urien's telling of 'Aiel Prophecy', spoken to Uno, Ragan, Mat, Perrin & Verin in The Great Hunt book.






Agreed.

Liandrin is one of the many women, Matrim Cauthon will wed in AMoL book. A Group Marriage to protect them all.

Felix, didn't you used to have a sig attachment that cliff-noted your loony theories? You should bring that back, as it's a useful way for the rest of us to keep track...

Ishara
05-22-2012, 09:32 PM
We don't actually know if the outrigger novels are going to be written. In any event RJ did say that not every loose end would be tied off and this might be one of them. On the other hand I think Brandon has said that an Encyclopedia will be released about a year after the last book and if the outrigger novesl are not written and the last book does not show us what happens perhaps it would be detailed in the encyclopedia.

RJ did not kill off to many main or secondary characters. The good guys tend to die quickly where as the male villins also tended to die but his famale villins were not so lucky. Moggy and Lanfear have ended up as practical slaves of Moridin. Moggy had a date with SH first and I'm not sure if Mesaana did but she ended up abused first then a vegetable. Liandirn is still alive and well but for somone one obsessed with power and position she is blocked from channeling and force to display herself in a very revealing outfit day after day in the very bottom of the social ladder of the Seanchan empire. The former head of the Red Ajah whose name escapes me is on her way the Waste as one of the most cruel Shaido Wise One's personal toy.

I don't know about anyone else but I'm seeing a pattern here. The question is did RJ consider Elaida a villin? If he did its not looking so good for her.

But we do - we do know that they are NOT being written. So to expect characters to all get tied off neatly with a bow is a bit...unrealistic. That scene was an ending, and it was enough of an ending for me. I don't need to know more about Elaida's fate or future with the Seanchan. But, that's just me.

maleshub
05-22-2012, 10:08 PM
If not death, slavery was the punishment of the treasonous, over-ambitious and/or narcissistic in WoT. Galina, Sevanna, Liandrin, Asmodean, Moghedien, Lanfear, and maybe Graendal are examples. Elaida would fit in that group. Sevanna, manipulated by Asmodean and Sammael, is an example that the person who suffers slavery does not have to be a darkfriend to suffer that fate.

Elaida will most ironically die on the attack on the White Tower!

Enigma
05-24-2012, 07:24 AM
Thats a good point about Sevanna. She was stupid and selfish as opposed to evil and is now learing to be propety.

Elaida will most ironically die on the attack on the White Tower!

Why would Elaida be sent on an attack on the White Tower at this stage? So far she is still not entirely broken in and even if she was she is still bound by the Three Oaths. I would have thought that the Seanchan would have non Aes Sedai damane assembled for the strike force with Elaida showing how gateways work. If Aes Sedai damane are to have any role I would have thought it would be in support eg opening gataways or standing by to heal wounded soldiers or injured prisoners.

GonzoTheGreat
05-24-2012, 07:41 AM
Elaida is quite strong, so she could shield most solitary AS and Novices/Accepted. That would be useful, just prior to slamming an A'dam around their necks, yet it would not violate the TO.

Enigma
05-24-2012, 08:49 AM
Elaida is quite strong with the OP but she is not fully broken. If she is sent she could just as likely shout for help as to try and shield a sister.

Give the sul'dam a few weeks of intensive training and she will be a good damane and do what she is told but the impression I had was that Tuon planned to strike in the next few days not weeks.

Davian93
05-24-2012, 08:53 AM
Elaida is first and foremost a coward...she would do what the sul'dam wants as she is easily breakable (something Alviarin showed us).

Enigma
05-24-2012, 08:58 AM
Elaida is first and foremost a coward...she would do what the sul'dam wants as she is easily breakable (something Alviarin showed us).

And yet despite the sul'dam wanting her to be a good obedient damane she tried to bargin with Tuon and offer her powerful AS to take her place?

I agree she will break and probably a lot faster that some but it will take a bit of time and I don't meen a few hours. Now someone like Wierd Harold with military experience could probably advise better on this but until Elaida is firmly and completly broken I don't see the wisdom in sendng an unreliable weapon into what the Seanchan could see as the most important battle in the whole Return.

Davian93
05-24-2012, 09:19 AM
I agree that Elaida wouldn't be sent for a lot of reasons but I dont see her as strong by any means. The "bargaining" is just another sign of her cowardness/willingness to do anything to avoid further pain.

You wouldn't send her into battle for a couple reasons but the first and foremost being the Oaths. No Sul'dam is going to want to take a weapon with them that they can only "fire" after being fired upon...not in a channeling battle. Using her just for shielding (as someone suggested) is too much of a risk as you'd need to have another un-Oathed damane present to provide the offensive firepower needed. Any uncollared AS will, after the first Seanchan raid, fire first and ask questions later as soon as they see any Seanchan as they will likely feel their life in danger.

She's much better used to help open gateways and do other logistical stuff.

Enigma
05-24-2012, 10:07 AM
At the riks of going off topic is Elaida actually a coward. Trying to bargin with the Seanchan is probably futile but not entirely unreasonable. Likewise when Alviarin took control of her Elaida did not try to go out in a blaze of glory and defience against her Keeper but trying to think/plot her way out of the situation is not exaclty cowardise.

The reason I ask was that Elaida was pretty central to the move to remove Siuan. I know she had help and all that but at the end of the day she started a political plot against an Amyrlin from the Blue who are known for their spies and abilities at policits. Its not the sort of action that gets you a visit to the Mistresss of Novices and a don't do it again. Yet she risked it.

I'm not saying Elaida is the most brave character or even in the top ten but she struck me as arrogant, brittle and impulsive but not a coward like say someone like Moggy.

Davian93
05-24-2012, 10:28 AM
Elaida is a bully. When broken, most bullies are ridiculous cowards. Everything about her personality screams coward.

Sporkster
05-24-2012, 10:32 AM
And if anything, that scene in ToM proves that she's basically nonredeemable. Offering to sell the Seanchan other women to get out of the collar nails it for me. If there was any chance of redemption, that scene wouldn't have shown her in such an exclusively negative light. So I think the chances of her doing anything other than suffering under the a'dam in AMoL is unlikely, and I think that she's likely to be as present as Galina (that is, not at all).

Davian93
05-24-2012, 12:16 PM
Speaking of Seanchan, Aiel and Galina...whatever happened to that Oath Road that Sevanna & Co had? Did they keep it or was it seized in the attack on them by Perrin and the Seanchan. If it were the latter, someone might just mention what it does and then Tuon could use it to remove the Oaths from her new pets.

frenchie
05-24-2012, 12:35 PM
IIRC, Galina had it with her when Thereva recaptured her. I'll have to confirm when I get home.

Edit. Yes, Galina had it when she was recaptured in KoD Ch. 30.

Edynol
05-24-2012, 01:56 PM
Didn't one of the aiel take it from her though?

Yeah. Theravy orders her never to touch the Binder again.

Davian93
05-24-2012, 02:55 PM
IIRC, Galina had it with her when Thereva recaptured her. I'll have to confirm when I get home.

Edit. Yes, Galina had it when she was recaptured in KoD Ch. 30.

Awesome...too lazy/busy to look it up myself.

frenchie
05-24-2012, 04:53 PM
Encyclopedia WoT is very helpful for quick research.

jana
05-24-2012, 08:04 PM
Tuon could use it to remove the Oaths from her new pets.

The whole reason Galina didn't ride off into the sunset was that Therava had the oath rod. That was also why Therava let her go out riding. Galina may have been wrong, but she assumed that she needed that specific oath rod to remove the oaths. I find it more likely that she was correct, and Tuon won't be able to remove the oaths unless they find the oath rod if they raid the White Tower.

maleshub
05-24-2012, 11:01 PM
Thats a good point about Sevanna. She was stupid and selfish as opposed to evil and is now learing to be propety.

Thanks.

Why would Elaida be sent on an attack on the White Tower at this stage? So far she is still not entirely broken in and even if she was she is still bound by the Three Oaths. I would have thought that the Seanchan would have non Aes Sedai damane assembled for the strike force with Elaida showing how gateways work. If Aes Sedai damane are to have any role I would have thought it would be in support eg opening gataways or standing by to heal wounded soldiers or injured prisoners.

She's much better used to help open gateways and do other logistical stuff.

As Davian pointed, Elaida is necessary for the attack for her Traveling, not battle skills. That was why I saw her dying in the WT attack. Since damane cannot link to open one large gateway for their army, they will probably have to use many damane to open a number of gateways. And they would have to be the ones who can open the largest. And I assume Elaida is one of them.

As to Elaida being broken or not, she's already broken. She's basically offering everything to the Seanchan in exchange for her freedom. She's betrayed everything she could to save her hide. That's a broken prisoner if there is one! It is just a matter of time and a few "pleasure punishments" by Tuon before Elaida is as good as Mylen.

Enigma
05-25-2012, 07:44 AM
Technically Elaida is not exactly necessary for the attack, she can show the damane how to make a gateway and that's her job done. Even if she is invovled in making gateways would she not be making the weave from Ebou Dar and probaby staying on the far side?

Now standing beside an open gateway is dangerous if people start shooting back. The best example I can think of is when Nynaeve & co fled with the Kin from their farm and the Seanchan were attacking from the far side while Aviendha unravelled the gateway.

In this case however the damane are not trying to hide the secret of Traveling from the AS so if they come under fire they could close the gateway with them safely in Ebou Dar and then wait a bit and reopen it in a slightly different position.

The question I have is how will the Seanchan carry out the attack. They will need several gateways will they open all at the same place so they can consentrate their numbers quickly or will then have gateways opening on every floor so that the defenders cant consentrate their forces?

One think that does occur to me is that it would be handy for the Seanchan to use captured As if the gateway damane are going to step throught the gateway and hold them from the Tar Valon side. Why? Well the AS should all know the ground something the damane would not.

Davian93
05-25-2012, 08:39 AM
Encyclopedia WoT is very helpful for quick research.

LOL...yeah, I know. Its easier to crowdsource it though especially when I'm at work and cant have multiple windows open like that. Especially for a fairly small detail like that.

frenchie
05-25-2012, 10:01 AM
Oh, I know about looking for info while at work, I just didn't want you to think I had to do any ""real" research.

Terez
05-25-2012, 10:10 AM
Little researches add up.

jana
05-25-2012, 10:19 AM
What I would like to happen is for the Seanchan to bring her along as a trophy. (To Merrilor, not the WT)

Terez
05-25-2012, 10:37 AM
I would like for Mat to finally meet her, since he has heard all about her from Rand and then Thom and then all sorts of Aes Sedai including the Supergirls. Verin's thoughts in TPOD about the catastrophe of having a ta'veren like Rand in the Tower. I wonder if she blames Mat for the split. Min would like that.

Seeker
05-25-2012, 11:43 AM
Our last glimpse at Suffa:


I agree that the issue of sul'dam and damane will not be resolved in the very short time we have left, and unless there's some sort of Harry Potter-esque epilogue, we may never see a resolution now that the Mat-Tuon Outriggers won't be written.

So, I don't see Elaida being freed from the collar that we'll know of, and without that I don't see any possibility of redemption or glory. All she can do is obey, or be abused till she does. Not a happy fate, and yet for someone with her hubris, it sort of fits.

Truthfully, I think that her passing Travelling to the Seanchan was her legacy, and that is the end of her as far as we're concerned: an extended lifetime as damane.

I actually do see Elaida being freed (though probably exiled from the Tower the instant she returns) because I believe that releasing the damane will be the key to a lasting peace with the Seanchan.

Tuon is no fool and she's going to recognize sooner or later that she NEEDS Rand; without him, everyone will die. Unlike most rulers, Tuon actually cares about her people and this will bring her to the negotiating table.

I also think that freeing the damane is the key to avoiding the future that Aviendha saw in the glass columns because, if you recall, the war between the Aiel and the Seanchan began over the issue of Wise Ones being collared.

SauceyBlueConfetti
05-25-2012, 01:47 PM
I actually do see Elaida being freed (though probably exiled from the Tower the instant she returns) because I believe that releasing the damane will be the key to a lasting peace with the Seanchan.


I agree that releasing damane is in the cards...however, it could be a gradual release. Start with the youngest, release the former Aes Sedai, etc. or even graduated release based on their levels of power (to appease the fears of Seanchan). If a damane does NOT want to be released/set free/unleashed, I see the empire retaining the right to continue leashing them.

So....wouldn't it be fun to see Elaida so broken as to not want to be released?

Sporkster
05-25-2012, 01:58 PM
So....wouldn't it be fun to see Elaida so broken as to not want to be released?

No more than she deserves, in my opinion.

Enigma
05-25-2012, 05:26 PM
If the damane are freed it will pose problems as a lot of them are in no condition mentally to be given freedom. I suppose the sul'dam could work with them as mentors.

As for Elaida, I know its tempting to say she deserves what she got and it is true but the question one has to ask is does anyone truely deserve the fate of a damane? In essence its a form of living death. Some damane seem to enjoy it and are close to some of the sul'dam but thats only after their personalities are completly destroyed.

While I'm against the death penaltiy I would have thought that an execution would be a lot kinder that doing to them what the sul'dam do.

Seeker
05-25-2012, 05:51 PM
I agree that releasing damane is in the cards...however, it could be a gradual release. Start with the youngest, release the former Aes Sedai, etc. or even graduated release based on their levels of power (to appease the fears of Seanchan). If a damane does NOT want to be released/set free/unleashed, I see the empire retaining the right to continue leashing them.

So....wouldn't it be fun to see Elaida so broken as to not want to be released?

Yes, but I don't think you can break Elaida like that in the time alotted. Her villingness to sell out her sisters is pretty clear indication that she'll do anything to avoid pain and if, as you said, the former Aes Sedai are among the first to go, then she'll leap at the chance.

Seeker
05-25-2012, 05:56 PM
If the damane are freed it will pose problems as a lot of them are in no condition mentally to be given freedom. I suppose the sul'dam could work with them as mentors.

As for Elaida, I know its tempting to say she deserves what she got and it is true but the question one has to ask is does anyone truely deserve the fate of a damane? In essence its a form of living death. Some damane seem to enjoy it and are close to some of the sul'dam but thats only after their personalities are completly destroyed.

While I'm against the death penaltiy I would have thought that an execution would be a lot kinder that doing to them what the sul'dam do.

I think Egwene will take them in if they're released. Possibly allowing the former sul'dam who come to the Tower to work with them for a gradual transition. And Elayne might be able to modify the a'dam to create a link without some of the negative side-effects like the the ability to give pain. That would allow the damane to retain the sense of connectedness without actually being treated as slaves. Each day they can take off the collar for a few minutes, getting over their fear little by little.

Failing that, they could just give the damane versions of the a'dam similar to the one Moghidien wore. Bracelet and necklace without a chain. The damane can experience freedom of movement that way. After all, nothing says you HAVE to give pain with the thing.


There are plenty of options.

Yellow Sisters might be good candidates for wearing the bracelets. They'd see it as a chance to mend the damane, get them back to a healthy state of mind.

maleshub
05-25-2012, 06:14 PM
Technically Elaida is not exactly necessary for the attack, she can show the damane how to make a gateway and that's her job done. Even if she is invovled in making gateways would she not be making the weave from Ebou Dar and probaby staying on the far side?

Now standing beside an open gateway is dangerous if people start shooting back. The best example I can think of is when Nynaeve & co fled with the Kin from their farm and the Seanchan were attacking from the far side while Aviendha unravelled the gateway.

In this case however the damane are not trying to hide the secret of Traveling from the AS so if they come under fire they could close the gateway with them safely in Ebou Dar and then wait a bit and reopen it in a slightly different position.

The question I have is how will the Seanchan carry out the attack. They will need several gateways will they open all at the same place so they can consentrate their numbers quickly or will then have gateways opening on every floor so that the defenders cant consentrate their forces?

One think that does occur to me is that it would be handy for the Seanchan to use captured As if the gateway damane are going to step throught the gateway and hold them from the Tar Valon side. Why? Well the AS should all know the ground something the damane would not.

The Seanchan aim to attack the WT in force to try and conquer it. And their initial discussion is to try and Travel to places in the basement(s) and then launch a surprise assault.

For that, they need time and they need Aes Sedai guides. Elaida and the captured Aes Sedai will be a key to the assault.

As to gateways, Elaida and the other damane who will open them have to be mobile to open gateways back to Ebou Dar from anywhere in Tar Valon to transport prisoners and bring reinforcements. They cannot simply open a gateway from Ebou Dar and stay there. It would require the attacking troops to go back and forth to the open gateways, cutting their mobility by a great deal.

My vision of that assault has the Aes Sedai playing an important role in helping the Seanchan pull it off as planned.

eht slat meit
05-25-2012, 09:25 PM
If RJ were the type to keep things neat and tidy, I'd expect her to die in an assault on the Seanchan by the forces of the Shadow, because I don't see her being used in a second assault on the Tower.

However, he's really not the type to keep things neat and tidy, and I'm guessing that Elaida will end up benefiting from whatever arrangement is made between the WT and the Seanchan in aMoL. Awkward freedom is awkward, as Egwene can identify with what she went through and Elaida owes her something. Egwene couldn't touch her without having serious political repercussions, and those that can were part and parcel of Elaida's failure.

Probably ends up in exile, per usual situation with deposed Amyrlins that aren't killed or stilled.

GonzoTheGreat
05-26-2012, 04:31 AM
Maybe she can go and teach the Sea Folk, or something. I don't think the Wise Ones would want her.

maleshub
05-26-2012, 07:25 PM
Maybe she can go and teach the Sea Folk, or something. I don't think the Wise Ones would want her.

Lol ... That would be priceless. Elaida would stop being a slave and become a deck hand. Either way, her ego would be shattered forever. She and "Lina" share many similarities in how fate treated them in the end.

Dom
05-27-2012, 02:42 PM
I think Elaida will be named by Moiraine as one of those responsible for what happened to Owyn.

Thus, I think Thom will have a role in Elaida's final fate.

I tend to think the Seanchan will be forced to give up the a'dam. They've convinced all their population channellers can't be trusted by nature. However, the truth is that sul'dam, including the Empress herself are channellers as well, channellers yet enjoying some of the vastest trust within the Empire, as they're trusted to handle damane even in Fortuona's presence... The more experienced sul'dam can see the weave and could channel themselves if they wanted to. They're on the brink, such as it is. What's the difference between using their own ability or controlling someone else's. It's nothing to do with nature, it's about ethics and choices. Channellers can serve the Empire, if they choose to.

That can obviously go two ways: the loyalty of the generations of sul'dam and of Fortuona to the Empire wins, and the a'dam is abandonned. The prejudices against channellers win, and the Seanchan are left with no option but to kill or leash the sul'dam... with no one left to use all these damane, now useless to anyone. Not to mention the lost of their Empress. The last battle will force the first choice, if the Seanchan give their channellers up, they're doomed. A reason to precipitate the changes might be brought up by the military, once they've faced circles. Circles of sul'dam lead by ex-damane would greatly increase the power of each damane, and for each there are many sul'dam...

But Seanchan culture will retain this: extremely harsh justice against rogue channellers. I think the a'dam will become the Seanchan's alternative to the AOL binder.

I think the Westlands damane will be released eventually.

I think Elaida may not, because she'll have been exposed to Fortuona as a murderer by Thom (perhaps very soon, if he goes to Ebou Dar with Mat). Elaida also faces grave offenses in the WT. It's more a matter of deciding if she'll have to face WT justice or Seanchan justice. Brandon gave a hint (a clue she may have been around in the outriggers) that can make one think Elaida might remain for good in Seanchan's hands.

Suffa, last of the damane?

Tree Brother
05-27-2012, 03:10 PM
The more experienced sul'dam can see the weave and could channel themselves if they wanted to. They're on the brink, such as it is. What's the difference between using their own ability or controlling someone else's.

An experienced sul'dam can weave the flows. As Tuon does when she collars he three Aes Sedai, or as Nynaeve does with Moghedien.

But that does not count as channelling yourself, supposedly. I am pretty sure that high up in the sul'dam hierarchy, they know that sul'dam are capable of channeling, and watch for that.

jana
05-27-2012, 04:45 PM
I am pretty sure that high up in the sul'dam hierarchy, they know that sul'dam are capable of channeling, and watch for that.

But we don't have any evidence to support that. All evidence points to no Seanchan knowing about it until Falme. This revelation has shocked every Seanchan who has discovered it. Renna was a highly respected sul'dam and was shocked. By higher ups I'm assuming you mean people like Melitene. I really don't think she's aware of it.

frenchie
05-27-2012, 07:49 PM
Plus Tuon knows that she is channeling through the damane. Her hypocrisy is fantastic, as when she finally does channel, she will know the weaves themselves. She won't be fumbling around like a wilder.

maleshub
05-27-2012, 09:57 PM
I think a "Binder" can solve the Seanchan's a'dam problem. If the Empress can be convinced that each marathdamane will only channel to serve the Empire, or will not betray the Empire, then that would help them take the leap towards ending damane slavery.

They would be the "Seanchan Oaths!"

frenchie
05-27-2012, 10:33 PM
Ah yes, so they are still being criminalized for their genetics, so much better. And the oath to only serve the Empires interests is flawed as well. The heir to the throne just on a whim decides to attempt to kill you. How is it in the Empires interests to defend yourself?

Rand al'Fain
05-28-2012, 01:49 AM
Ah yes, so they are still being criminalized for their genetics, so much better. And the oath to only serve the Empires interests is flawed as well. The heir to the throne just on a whim decides to attempt to kill you. How is it in the Empires interests to defend yourself?

A bit off topic, but it's kind of ironic, you posting that with the avatar you have.

Enigma
05-28-2012, 08:01 AM
Eventually the Seanchan will learn that the taint is gone. I wonder will this effect the way they view channelers as a whole? Up till now male channelers are killed thought there were some pov that showed that in the past some nobles tried to use male chanenlers and it did not end well for those involved.

Now up till now its been relatively easy for the Seanchan to deal with male channelers. At best a male could try and keep under the radar for a number of years but if he channels the taint will get him and madment are not very good at hiding what they are. Then its just a matter of bringing enought damane to kill him. With no circles available to the damane they probably can't shield them so it would be a slugging match with the One Power.

With no taint the men will get more and more control over what they are doing (the ones that survive) and will be a harder and harder nut to crack.

So we don't know if the male adam was widely known amoung the Seanchan or if Semirhage kept all copies with her. I could see some of the male forsaken being a bit worried about the copy male adam's becoming too common.

So back on topic, if the Seanchan are finding it harder and harder to deal with male channelers who are not going mad but who they can't control would that effet the way they see female channelers. Put another way being practical I could see some Seanchan trying to set up a counterpart to the Black Tower and if male chanelers are trained to serve the empire would there be any moves to incorporate damene and sul'dam who have started to channel into service as well?

Granted its all speculation and my slightly crazy thoery is that Mat wil summon Hawkwing vie the Horn and Hawkwing will tell the Seanchan off for some of their practices including the treatment of damane relulting in a phased release.

maleshub
05-28-2012, 07:58 PM
I think a "Binder" can solve the Seanchan's a'dam problem. If the Empress can be convinced that each marathdamane will only channel to serve the Empire, or will not betray the Empire, then that would help them take the leap towards ending damane slavery.

They would be the "Seanchan Oaths!"

Ah yes, so they are still being criminalized for their genetics, so much better. And the oath to only serve the Empires interests is flawed as well. The heir to the throne just on a whim decides to attempt to kill you. How is it in the Empires interests to defend yourself?

Strange that the most genetically diverse entity in WoT is in fact the Seanchan Empire. Remember "A Cup of Kaf" and the group of officers that Karede saw 4 days before finding Tuon.

But the more relevant point is that society doesn't function as a lightbulb. There is no on/off button when it comes to human customs. Those usually change in phases and over time. For example, Lincoln freed American slaves in the 1860's; but they were still punished for their genes in the 1960's.

The Seanchan, using a binder, might stop their total distrust of an uncollared channeler. They might stop erasing their names from the citizen books. And they might stop viewing them as animals. In fact, they might start using them as "servants" to achieve specific functions: healing, weapons, construction, skylights, etc.

frenchie
05-28-2012, 08:14 PM
The use of a binder hasn't led the general population to trust Aes Sedai, why believe the Seanchan will be different.

maleshub
05-28-2012, 08:32 PM
The use of a binder hasn't led the general population to trust Aes Sedai, why believe the Seanchan will be different.

True; but we're talking about the ruling elite, not the commoners. Kings and Queens in Randland trust and respect Aes Sedai with varying degrees; but at the end of the day, they answer the Amyrlin's summons and have Aes Sedai advisors; and actually listen to their advice (which makes sense more often than not).

It takes a decision by Fortuona, along with agreement from the High Blood, to change the laws of Seanchan. And what the Empress says is law to common Seanchan.

Enigma
05-29-2012, 08:08 AM
The trouble is that the general population and the nobles to a lesser extend don't trust Aes Sedai despite the Oaths because well the Aes Sedia are not very trustworthy.

Sure they can't lie and they cant use the one power as a weapon except in self defence but how often were we told in the begining of the series that what an AS says is not always what you think she said. In recent times the AS have been seen in a more sympathetic light due to the fact that they are not top dogs any more. The Aiel Wise Ones and the Sea Folk Windfinders tolerate them, the Asha'man have no real respect for them and they have lost the aura of being all powerful.

Before that the AS manipulated people and never ever explained themselves. One could agrue that they had good reasons for what they did but people judge them by their actions not their intent.

I agree that there is ingrained deep mistrust of women who can channell in Seanchan. It will take a lot to change that and even with the Empress giving a command attitudes will be slow to change.

I would suggest that this has already started to a small degree. The ship captain on her way to Tar Valon now is one example. She was Seanchan to the core but she worked with AS (or at least people pretending to be AS) and started to lose her fear and even started to respect them. Granted she is out of the picture at the moment but there are other examples.

There is the banner general who worked with Perrin and who was promoted to Lt General and the low blood. She worked with Aes Sedai, Aiel Wise Ones and Asha'man. She did not strike me as a great supporter of these groups but I would not be surprised if she did not see them as rabit dogs any more.

With the last battle around the corner the Seanchan military and policical leaders are going to be forced by circumstances to work with channelres of both sexes and there is nothing like getting to know people in life and death situatins to break down steriotypes.

Part of the proplem is that no one in Seanchan has had cause to challenge the image of women channelrs as creatures that have to be collared otherwise they will wreck havock on everyone else. Given that the Seanchan are so good at collaring sparklers they have not had to face a channeler in a position of authority who did not abuse that authority for probably 800/900 years.

Dom
05-30-2012, 08:05 PM
Plus Tuon knows that she is channeling through the damane. Her hypocrisy is fantastic, as when she finally does channel, she will know the weaves themselves. She won't be fumbling around like a wilder.

Actually there's no hypocrisy.

The experienced sul'dam aren't channeling anything. Nyaneve wasn't channeling through Moghedien either.

Nynaeve was mentally controlling Moghedien's weaving. A very subtle but important difference, even if in effect mentally controlling a woman's weaving and weaving yourself is exactly the same.. except for having or not saidar through you. In effect Moghedien's ability was all hers, except Nynaeve never touched saidar (it's the difference between the leader in a circle and a sul'dam).

The experienced sul'dam don't touch the TS either. Their ability is on the brink, and they can see the glow and the flows. They can control what the damane does with the OP directly... but without embracing the source at any point. Through the a'dam they can compel, and thus mentally weave or compel the woman to weave. That's what Tuon did with Joline, but there's no proof Tuon can see the weaves. Tuon is still young and she's hardly a full time sul'dam. Personally I doubt she's reached the point where she can be called "very experienced" and can see the flows and control them directly. She has one hell of a force of will - enough to resist the most powerful ta'veren around... - that's why she controlled Joline so completely and forced her to weave what she wanted without even saying a word, IMHO.

Jordan said once no sul'dam would ever touch the TS on her own by accident. Only sparkers can do that. To be become channelers, they have to be be guided in how to embrace the TS and make the conscious effort to embrace it.

The flaw in Tuon's reasonning is that yes, a learner can choose never to learn the ability to channel, but if that learner is a sul'dam, who not only has the ability in her and thus is of the same fundamental nature as a damane, but will also reach the stage when she can mentally control the weaves themselves as if she was the channeler, then she is a channeler de facto, who when she wears an a'dam, has the same supposed temptations as a damane to abuse the OP. The only fall back position is that of the WC or the Red Ajah's once upon a time for male channelers: it's touching the OP itself which is and "corrupting". The Seanchan don't believe that (they don't think damane are inherently bad or that the more they use the OP the more dangerous they become), but they believe channelers are compelled to use the OP unless they are controlled, that they can't choose. They don't know about the spark as such, they believed any channeler would eventually succumb to the temptation and use the OP...

It's not so much learning all sul'dam have the potential to learn, it's discovering that all experienced sul'dam can see the weaves and are but a small decision away from embracing the OP for themselves that should distress the non sul'dam when they learn. Either it's a compulsion in all channelers, or it's not. It can't be both.

I would suggest that this has already started to a small degree. The ship captain on her way to Tar Valon now is one example. She was Seanchan to the core but she worked with AS (or at least people pretending to be AS) and started to lose her fear and even started to respect them. Granted she is out of the picture at the moment but there are other examples.

Egeanin doesn't really count. At the moment she knows the Seanchan leaders are trying to cover this up, for one thing. Then, her prejudices fell to an extent because she met precisely women who pretended to be Aes Sedai but acted like no Aes Sedai. An afternoon with Elaida, or the bunch who kidnapped Rand, or Lelaine and Romanda and Egeanin's Seanchan prejudices would have being reinforced instead.

Tylee's prejudices may have been challenged a bit, but not really. Perrin kept his channelers out of her hair. It's pragmatism, admiration for Perrin himself and her new and more concrete fears of the Shadow that convinced Tylee the Seanchan should ally with the other side rather than pursue the Return.

Ultimately at the moment, what counts far more is that Fortuona is more convinced than ever of the urgency to bring down the WT and the BT. In KOD we saw the depth of her beliefs about AS.

With the recent gain of Travelling, it won't be easy to convince Tuon to relent or that it's already too late. In her view, she's closer than ever from completing the Return.

fionwe1987
05-31-2012, 12:35 AM
Two points:

Tuon can indeed see weaves:

"I didn't bring these three out of Ebou Dar so you could take them back." Mat said firmly, sliding himself along the bed. The foxhead grew colder still, and Tuon made a startled sound.
"How did you ... do that, Toy? The weave . . . melted . . . when it touched you."

Second, Sul'dam can indeed begin to channel on their own:

The yellow-haired former sul'dam had come round in spectacular, and painful, fashion. Painful for her and for the sisters. When she
first hesitantly asked them to teach her, too. at supper the night before, they refused. They were only teaching Bethamin because she
had already channeled. Seta was too old to become a novice, she had not channeled, and that was that. So she duplicated whatever it was that Bethamin had done and had all three leaping about the cookfire and squealing in showers of dancing sparks for as long as she could hold onto the Power. They agreed to teach her then.

Seta clearly began channeling on her own with no guidance. The sul'dam, from their training with the damane, probably know exactly how to reach out to the True Source. Once they reach the point of seeing weaves and controlling them too, its only a matter of consciously going over the edge.

Enigma
05-31-2012, 04:09 PM
As fionwe said Tuon can see the weaves and I would guess that quite a few sul'dam can as well. There seems to be two sorts of sul'dam. We saw the first group when we saw Egwene being trained. They use the adam to mentally break the damane but then they have to give verbal orders to the damane eg. "Blow up that tree." Now if they could direct the weaves even throught the adam why give orders.

The second sort are more advanced like Tuon and she seems to be able to use the damane as a battery for want of a better word. Tuon slapped the adam on the AS in the show and immediatly wove a shield on the second AS she also tried to hold Mat with the OP.

Now one could argue that a very well trained damane would be able to act on a whole load of non verbal commands from a sul'dam. If they two work together a lot the damane could be good at readign body language and she could be trained to shield any uncolloared female channler unless specifically told not to.

The only trouble with this is that the captured AS in the wagon had never worked with Tuon before. How would she know what to do, or what Tuon wanted without a verbal order? She couldn't so the only explination was that Tuon directed the weaves.

Also there are clear reports that some of the captured sul'dam can see the weaves but deny it for what it would mean to them. We don't know if those sul'dam who can see the weaves can direct them like Tuon but my guess is that they could even if they don't normally try to.

The only other time I can recal another instant of a woman wearing the bracelet forming the weaves herself was when Nynaeve was using the adam and Moggy to help fight Rahvin. Nynaeve was a semi trained channeler so I suspect either RJ messed up which is unlikely as he gave a lot of thought to his One Power science or this ability is a sign of being very close to channeling themselves.

Rand al'Fain
05-31-2012, 07:03 PM
The a'dam basically force a Linking between the Sul'dam and the damane. All sul'dam can be taught to channel, while damane are born with the ability, which is why Sul'dam can, with time, see the flows that they force the damane to create.

Enigma
06-01-2012, 08:47 AM
If I am remembering it correctly linking was a method used to teach in the AoL. I know that Asmodean told Rand that he was not a very good teacher without a link and that they dare not ask Moiraine to like them but I could have sworn I saw somewhere, not in the books, but in an interview or a Q & A where RJ said that a teacher linked with a student in the Aol and it make learning channeling faster but I could be wrong.

It would make sense that the adam forming a link between the sul'dam and damane is inadvertantly giving lessons to the sul'dam even if they don't realise it. A bit like a preparitory course in channeling.

Oden
06-01-2012, 10:59 AM
That's a really interesting thought, Enigma. My quick search didn't give any support to the linking-for-training, but I seem to remember reading something like it.
If it worked like that in the AoL, could Asmodean's comment be a foreshadowing for the future of the Return?

Heinz
06-01-2012, 11:20 AM
Asmo talks about the Linking in Chapter 3 of Fires of Heaven.

adrees83912
06-06-2012, 07:53 AM
To question 1: There's the glossary at the back of the books that helps with pronunciation of certain words. Also, encyclopaedia-wot.org has the entire list of characters with pronunciation guides (for most of them - Naeff doesn't, for example, have a pronunciation guide - I'd assume that you pronounce it as it sounds, then. I always pronounced it Nay-eff. )

Ishara
06-06-2012, 09:13 AM
If we're pronouning Naeff like it's spelled, wouldn't we say NaYfe, then?

Oden
06-06-2012, 10:08 AM
For those who read phonetic writing: I read Naeff [nɒ:əf]