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The Unreasoner
05-22-2012, 09:30 PM
So there are more interpretations to this than I would have thought. But they seem to fall into two different groups, namely:


Those that think it deals primarily with events after Tarmon Gaidon
Those that think that it deals primarily with events before Tarmon Gaidon

So I'm in the former, but I believethere are intelligent people in the latter camp (Terez comes to mind. Although I apologize in advance if I mistook her position).


So:
What are your thoughts? It seems like it is one of the last big Prophecies that has yet to be fulfilled...
The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who goes beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. the future teeters on the edge of a blade.
This (the bold) seems to be the root of all disagreements (as the rest is more or less straightforward).


To me, I see 'great battle done' as a specific battle, namely Tarmon Gaidon. 'The world not done with battle' seems to be talking about warfare in a general sense (possibly a failure to adopt the Dragon's Peace or submit to the Way of the Leaf). From a practical standpoint, this translates into Rand's resurrection/rebirth occuring after TG, and the Seanchan not having any permanent alliance at the end of TG (so neither Rand nor Fortuana submits). I'd like to think that the Seanchan end up contributing by having their troops commandeered by Mat and Beslan, but I don't know yet.


But many popular theories go in another direction. Does anyone care to list their interpretations and show how that translates into practical theorizing?

Zombie Sammael
05-23-2012, 06:38 AM
To me "Last Battle" has always meant the last battle in the War of the Shadow, a war which has been fought for over 4000 years, at times cold, at times very hot, but always the same war. Tarmon Gai'don is the end of this conflict, but I see no reason why it would be the end of all conflict other than if the Shadow won; even then, perhaps the Aelfinn and the Ogier might be able to mount a defence. With that in mind, "Great Battle" could well refer to Tarmon Gai'don - but do bear in mind this prophecy has to be at least considered in light of the Wise One's prophecy delivered around the same time.

Dajoran
05-23-2012, 07:47 AM
For me, I am in the camp of the latter.

Disclaimer: My thoughts only - feel free to dissect.

I suppose after placing all of the pieces of the puzzle together it makes more sense to me.

Firstly, I am in agreement that the Battle of Camlann/Caemlyn will be taking place, the Black Tower also needs the personal attention of the Dragon.

Pretty much everything is geared towards going here at the early stages of the next book.

I'm going to leap here... as much as the 'Broken Wolf' prophecy screams 'LAN' to me... when I link it to WorldWarAndor it pretty much is Rand being discussed.

We need someone to fill this position of the Broken Wolf. As much as the death of Aan'allein would cause a major depression amongst the ranks. I can't help but assume most farmers south of the Black Hills would be nonplussed.

We need someone who fits this bill, the destruction of whom would 'bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself'.

This is someone very very important to the cause. What would cause this except for the death of the man who is meant to save them all?

So, now we have Rand kicking the bloody bucket at a point where it would cause fear and sorrow.

We also have a great battle in the form of Caemlyn/Black Tower.

----

I'm going to use extant physical evidence here, that is, the two covers for aMoL.

I may be wrong here, but both DKS and MW where given the same three scenes from the book to choose from.

We know now that DKS chose the BBQ Dragon with the Maypole Dancers scene, while MW chose Tom Cruse as 'Zoolander'.

Now we have no idea what place chronologically each scene takes place. It would make perfect storytelling sense to have the hero descending into SG with his maglite sword and die saving the world.

However, we seemingly have geographical locations.

My take on the pyre being near Dragonmount is that Rand is returned to the FoM post-Caemlyn (which we sort of know is in the general area "Look ma! I can see Dragonmount from here!!").

All of those who did not go with his party learn of his death there. Their hearts get filled with fear and sorrow. Blood and bloody ashes, this really will be the last battle. Dun dun duuuuuuun.

I win again Lews Therin.
Randnuts roasting on an open fire.
?????
Dragon Reborn Reborn.
Profit.

MORE!

The next part of Nicola's foretelling

"The land divided by the return"

The land is currently divided by the return. The placement of this in her foretelling suggests that this is something that is still true after his death. We know that a Dragonland/Seanchanasia truce/NATO conference needs to happen for TG to end well.

"Over there and over here need to be one, Up and Down need to be one or else we'll all die." Or something to that effect.

So Randland unification will not take place prior to his death... but we need this to happen so that we can win.

tl;dr - ZombieJesus Tom al'Zoolander will descend into the guts of SG only after he dies.

The Unreasoner
05-23-2012, 11:30 PM
Well, since Aan'allein is loosely translated as One Man Who is an Entire People, and since every Malkieri fighter is with him, losing Lan is more like '(completely) losing Malkier.'

I have said a number of times that I think the BT issues are more or less resolved at this point (as of Merrilor). We know the BT timeline is a bit behind, and Rand is ready to go on to SG apparently without reservations. He may be crazy (indeed, he probably is), but I think he's saner than most people think and isn't likely to leave a threat like the BT to others unless he was sure they could manage it. I think TG has 5 fronts: SG (with Rand and co, lots of Aiel), T'A'R (with Eggers and Perrin), Caemlyn (most of the Merrilor force), the Black Tower (Logain and co, including bonded sisters, Androl, and circles), and Tarwin's Gap (whatever reinforcements Nynaeve and Rand can manage. Maybe the Seanchan?).

I think four of these will be more or less simultaneous.

I'm just curious about a few things:

Where do you think Rand will be after TG?

What exactly does the Broken Wolf have to do with this, and why is Caemlyn connected to Rand? (doesn't that sort of throw everything from the last book out the window?)

How are you reading the bolded part? (specific battle, then general battle?)