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Terez
05-25-2012, 05:07 AM
I don't want a forum; a thread will do. I have been spamming the hell out of Twitter, so I figure I should attempt to let it out elsewhere. I have also been holding in a lot of my reread chatter to keep the Twitter-spamming to a minimum.

My reread thought for the night is something I've believed for a long time (like since before I joined here) and is probably true, but no one ever talks about it. When Birgitte is ripped out, you get a short Liandrin POV of Moghedien being Healed by Chesmal, then giving Liandrin her fancy shield, etc. Then Moghedien takes off to Ghealdan, tells them to follow on fast horses, and they never see her again.

Birgitte was ripped out in the night; early in the day Nynaeve saw Uno and went into the city with him. On the way out she passed a menagerie under the name of Mairin Gome.

The sign over the entrance to the nearest show said MAIRIN GOME in florid green and gold. Two women were clearly visible above the sign, clinging to a rope hanging from a tall framework of poles that had not been there when Luca's walls went up. Apparently the boar-horses' rearing high enough to be seen was having an effect. The women contorted themselves into positions that made Nynaeve think uncomfortably of what Moghedien had done, and somehow even managed to hold themselves out in horizontal handstands to either side of the rope. The crowd waiting impatiently in front of Mistress Gome's sign was almost as large as the one in front of Luca's. None of the other shows had anything visible that she could see, and their crowds were much smaller.
Nynaeve spent several hours in Samara with Uno and Ragan, talking to Masema and Galad, etc. Uno told her about a woman who had her neck broken (and then hanged) four days before because she was suspected of being Aes Sedai; the Whitecloaks apparently whipped up the mob. When she came back to the show after all that, there was a woman supposedly from that show:

To her surprise, there was an addition to the show. On a new platform not far from the entry, a woman in gauzy yellow trousers was standing on her head, arms outstretched to either side with a pair of white doves on each hand. No, not on her head. The woman was gripping some sort of wooden frame in her teeth and balancing on that. As Nynaeve watched, aghast, the peculiar acrobat lowered her hands to the platform for a moment while bending herself double, until she seemed to be sitting on her own head. Even that was not enough. Her legs curved down in front of her, then impossibly back up under her arms, whereupon she transferred the doves to the upturned soles of her feet, now the highest part of the contorted ball she had knotted herself into. The onlookers gasped and applauded, but the sight made Nynaeve shiver. It was all too good a reminder of what Moghedien had done to her....

...In an attempt to cover checking the sun, she nodded toward the woman in the gauzy trousers, who had now begun to twist herself into something that Nynaeve knew was impossible. While still balancing on her teeth. "Where did she come from?"

"Luca hired her," Birgitte answered calmly. "He bought some leopards, as well. Her name is Muelin."

If Birgitte was all self-possessed coolness, Elayne very nearly quivered with emotion. "Where did she come from?" she spluttered. "She came from a show that a mob nearly destroyed!"

"I heard about that," Nynaeve said, "but that isn't what is important. I —"

"Not important!" Elayne rolled her eyes to the heavens as if for guidance. "Did you also hear why? I don't know whether it was Whitecloaks or this Prophet, but somebody whipped up that mob because they thought..." She glanced around without slowing and lowered her voice; none of the crowd had stopped, but every passerby stared at two obvious performers standing. "... that a woman in the show might wear a shawl." She emphasized the last word significantly. "Fools to think she'd be with a traveling menagerie, but then, you and I are."
With all the menageries around, it's strange she didn't find work in four days' time. Muelin was positioned by the entrance to watch all comings and goings, and presumably she left the show as soon as the girls did, three days later. She was no longer with Luca's show when Thom and Juilin returned to it with Mat a little over 5 months later.

Anyway, I've always thought Muelin was Moghedien, so I figured I'd share; no one else seems to have talked about that at all on the internet that I can find, and the people I've mentioned it to hadn't thought of it. Maybe it's just that no one cares; I'm sure that if Moghedien's identity had still been up in the air at the end of TFOH, everyone would know by now that she was Muelin for a time, and it's a short step from there to Marigan. But since she was all taken care of by the end of the book, no one bothered to mention it. (Including me.)

GonzoTheGreat
05-25-2012, 05:22 AM
It is also possible that Muelin had been in hiding for a couple of days. Having a lynch mob descend on you makes some people nervous.
And she may very well have decided not to stay around in the area at all, being nervous anyway and then having some of the performers (Elayne and friends) leave for unexplained reasons may have made her decide to go and perform in Tear or Saldaea or something like that.

I don't think that Moghedien was physically capable of doing that kind of contortionist things. If she had been, then she probably would have managed to duck the thing Nynaeve threw at her in Tanchico* too.

* Curious, isn't it, that if it had been GWB who Nynaeve had been fighting there, then he would beaten her. The shoe incident in Bagdad proved that he does know how to duck projectiles.

Terez
05-25-2012, 05:41 AM
It is also possible that Muelin had been in hiding for a couple of days. Having a lynch mob descend on you makes some people nervous.
Possible, but unlikely.

I don't think that Moghedien was physically capable of doing that kind of contortionist things.
As Nynaeve said, no one was. Moghedien was taunting her with the acrobatics, and she was probably using Illusion.

Davian93
05-25-2012, 07:42 AM
Interesting tidbit and theory. This is one of the things I love most about WoT...even after dozens of rereads, there is almost always another detail that was missed to find.

Terez
05-25-2012, 01:09 PM
Despite the overdose of female in TFOH, I have to say that I am loving Nynaeve in this book. She's always a bit...herself...but in this book it's really easy for me to relate to her. She starts out the book in a bad mood, and it just keeps getting worse and worse. She has moments where she's moping about Birgitte, or scared to death that Moghedien is going to come get her (and haha, Moghedien has already found her and she's too scared to make a move), but inevitably someone says something to her—it pretty much doesn't matter what, after a certain point—and off she goes.

I just started The Price of a Ship, and it's top-notch stuff; I'd forgotten how much so. I dig the Elayne-Nynaeve overload (this is when they really start to grate on each other past the fleeting stuff, for the first time, because Elayne is very patient usually). There are a lot of bits from their time together (basically from TGH to WH when Nynaeve finally escapes) that I have often referenced, but it's something else in context. Now that I'm near the end of the book I feel differently about the male-female balance in this one.

And also, The Price of a Ship is one of the best theme-summarizing chapter names in the series. But since we know it's fiction, we can appreciate the humor aspect of it too. I mean, Nynaeve asked the two craziest people in Samara to find a ship for her, knowing that it was unlikely two would come at once, and those two people were on opposite sides of a boiling cauldron that she had walked all across and back. And she didn't care; all she could think about was "I need a ship." And since she knew Masema was crazy she hedged her bets. In her defense Galad seems to have stolen Lanfear's love-pheromones or whatever.

Terez
05-25-2012, 02:04 PM
Also, I'm about to get back to reading and probably won't stop until I get back to Rand, if then. But I'm excited about reading To Boannda in context. And I had a thought about the resurrection, which I will not overly spam Twitter with.

Part of the mythological basis for Rand's resurrection is in the Boann/Dagda legends and specifically in the way those legends are referenced in the most blatant and layered foreshadowing of Rand's death I know of in the entire series.

Part of the basis for the resurrection is in the Perun legends, and you can tell because of the way this particular story (http://perun.ca/Stories.aspx) ties in with the Birgitte method, the Arthurian women (the harem), and even Slayer. So how is Perrin important to Rand's resurrection? The obvious answer is that he will deal with Slayer and whatever else is hunting Rand/protecting the dreamspike.

But I think it started with his meeting Birgitte. She said it herself:

She almost appeared to be leaning slightly on something invisible; perhaps that silver thing he had never quite seen. "I seem to be telling you a great deal. I do not understand why I spoke in the first place. Of course. Are you ta'veren, archer?"

"Who are you?" She seemed to know a lot about the tower, and the wolf dream. But she was surprised I could talk to Hopper. "I've met you before somewhere, I think."

"I have broken too many of the prescripts already, archer."
The reason why this is significant to the Perun legends: Perrin had just come through the Waygate at Manetheren, just above the Manetherendrelle. I think the Manetherendrelle and the Tarendrelle have symbolic reference to the live water and dead water of the Perun legends.

Rain is a happy omen and, falling before a new endeavour is commenced, guarantees its success. The sick are given rain water, or water collected from the seven springs to drink. Rain water, or the water of life, as it is called in Russian, heals wounds, makes mutilated parts of the body grow, rejuvenates the old, and resurrects the dead.

The Slavonic tales abound in accounts of how a dead hero is restored to life by means of this precious liquid, which is sometimes brought by the Whirlwind, the Thunder, and the Hail, sometimes by their types the Raven, the Hawk, the Eagle, and the Dove. But they differ from most of the similar stories in this respect. They have two species of what is called the "strong" or the "heroic" water. The one is called "the dead water" (mertvaya voda); the other the "living [or vivifying] water" (zhivaya voda). Contrary to its name, however, the dead water does not bring death; rather, it makes mutilated bodies whole, and heals wounds. But unlike live water, it does not possess the power of resurrection. Folktales are replete with motifs of dead and live water. Like the spring rains which first melt the earth, purify her, make her whole, while the following rains resurrect her, the dead hero too is first sprinkled with dead water, and then with live water, before he comes to life again. When that has been done, the corpse first shudders and then sits up, usually remarking "How long I have been asleep?" or "Oh, did I sleep too long?"

What is the source of these waters? This brings us to the arbor mundi, the world tree. There, in the centre of the universe stands the oak tree, on its top sits the bird of paradise, the eagle, under its roots lies the snake demon. Two springs flow out from under the tree; one of live water, and the other of dead water. Near the springs sit three women, the fortune tellers. One knows the past, the other the future, and the third, the present. They decide what should be and what should not be, and the fate of every being. They bring death or life, and continuously work over the creation of the world (Here I may add that one of the magical values of live water is that it imparts wisdom and power to tell the future).

The arbor mundi is seen as a mediator between the world of the dead and the world of the living. The fight between the eagle and the snake demon is eternal, and represents the cycle of life and death, and of the seasons. The defeat of the demon results in the release of live waters. Death in slavic folklore is seen as a temporary state, a state of sleep. Nothing dies till the end. Every spring the sun comes out of the clutches of the forces of darkness; every spring Perun overpowers the snake demon, and life returns to the earth. Arbor mundi, associated with the theme of the constant revival and renewal, is seen as one of the attributes of Perun.

The sun in Russian folklore is metaphorically called Ognioni kamen, or Bel goruch kamen ? the white hot stone. Perun either holds the fire-stone (the fireball) in his hands, or his thick eyelashes hide the fire underneath them or, at times, he himself represents the sun. On the one hand, the sun (fire-stone) dies every winter or, having become weak, is overpowered by his adversary the dark forces of winter and revives every spring after having bathed in the pure waters released by Perun. On the other hand, Perun has to drink the living fluids of the celestial wells first before he is able to kill the snake demon, and send life generating rains down to earth. The sun as the eye of god Perun or, as the fire hidden in the eyes of god, can burn and destroy everything when they are open but, soaked in holy waters, it generates life-giving forces. These attributes of the sun and Perun are transferred on the earth to stones.
The Two Rivers flow from the Mountains of Mist, bordered on the other side by Tarabon, Almoth Plain, and Arad Doman. Verin noted in TGH, in the context of the Dark Prophecy concerning Slayer and Rand's permanent death, that all three had probable connections to chora trees:

"Now, 'the ancient tree,'" Verin said, immersed in her own thoughts. "There have always been rumors – no more than that – that while the nation of Almoth still lived, they had a branch of Avendesora, perhaps even a living sapling. And the banner of Almoth was 'blue for the sky above, black for the earth below, with the spreading Tree of Life to join them.' Of course, Taraboners call themselves the Tree of Man, and claim to be descended from rulers and nobles in the Age of Legends. And Domani claim descent from those who made the Tree of Life in the Age of Legends. There are other possibilities, but you will note, Mother, that at least three center around Almoth Plain and Toman Head."
Later in TSR (i.e. after Perrin meets Birgitte) we learn that the Aiel had hard times approaching the Aryth Coast:

Jonai stood at the edge of the cliff staring out westward over the sun-sparkled water. A hundred leagues in that direction lay Comelle. Had lain Comelle. Comelle had clung to the mountains overlooking the sea. A hundred leagues west, where the sea now ran....

..."You have chora cuttings," one of the Ogier said. His thick fingers gently brushed the trefoil leaves of the two potted plants tied to the side of a wagon.

"Some," Adan said curtly. "They die, but the old folk keep new cuttings before they do." He had no time for trees. He had a people to look after....

..."You have come from the east?" another Ogier asked. He wiped his bowl with a heel of bread and gulped it down. "How is it to the east?"

"Bad," Jonai replied. "Perhaps not so bad for you, though. Ten – no, twelve days ago, some people took a third of our horses before we could escape. We had to abandon wagons." That pained him. Wagons left behind, and what was in them....

...Jonai managed to seize his son's frayed collar and pull his face close. "Take – the people – south." He had to force the words out between spasms that seemed to be ripping his heart out.
So there's a reasonable explanation as to why any of those three places might have had chora trees; perhaps all three did.

So one might say the Two Rivers flow from the Tree. The Dark Prophecy seems to think so, and if it's only the nation of Almoth that's representative of that, it is the most centered one on the origin of those two rivers.

I'm not sure the Tree symbolism will come into play beyond that, unless you want to count Rand going to live there after he's resurrected, and Perrin being his guardian in a way. I tried to think of a good reason for Rand to be resurrected on a boat in the Waterwood, but I can't come up with a plausible one. It's too bad, really.

Anyway, more symbolism. The eagle on top of the Tree seems to tie to the red eagle of Manetheren, and there's another bit about a red bird at the end of that Perun page:

Slava is a beautiful bird - a messenger of God Perun, every feather of which was said to shine a different color. This beautiful bird was called MATEPb CBA (Mater Sva) which can be translated either as Mater Slava (Mother Glory), Mater svex (Mother of everyone) or Mater Sova (Mother Owl - which may be why much of Russian Folk art depicts an owl). This flame colored bird usually appeared in the critical moment and pointed with its wing the direction in which an army should go. Everyone knew that either glory or a glorious death awaited the warriors and the prince had no choice but to follow the bird's lead.
Also, the tie of Perrin to the sun is interesting because if anyone fits the Dagda (who stops the sun to conceal Boann's pregnancy with his child) in physical and symbolic attributes, it's Perrin. (See this fan rendition (http://www.gothambynight.com/scion/thedagda.htm) of him.) From that page:

The Dagda and Boann
The Dagda once fell in love with Boann, a beautiful river goddess; he attempted to resist his feelings, because she was his father's wife, but when he found that she loved him as well he was powerless to resist her. The two carried on a clandestine affair until Boann became pregnant; fearing that their relationship would be discovered when Nuada returned the next day, the Dagda grasped the sun and held it in place for nine months until Boann could give birth to a beautiful baby boy, Aengus, the only person ever to have been conceived and born in only one day. When the sun went down, Nuada returned, but the Dagda had already spirited the child away for safekeeping, and he never learned of his wife's unfaithfulness.

The Dagda and the Morrigan
When the Dagda went forth to battle with the Fomorians, he met the Morrigan on the way, waiting for him by a river. She prophesied his doom and frightened him with her omens of blood and defeat, but she promised that if he kept a tryst with her she would provide him with battle plans that could not be defeated. He agreed to this and they coupled beneath the trees, after which she promised to send all the magicians and sorcerers to aid him, turning the tide of battle.
The Morrigan is a parallel to Marigan a.k.a. Moghedien. I could go on and on but I'm tired and I want to read more and I think anyone who is interested can pick the same things out of the text that I did. I will say, though, that I noticed a lot of random sun chatter between Perrin and Faile and in their general vicinity in TSR. Perrin's ta'veren swirl is what led Birgitte to break the precepts, so that she could meet Nynaeve and teach her how to heal Rand's death.

Terez
05-25-2012, 02:31 PM
Ahhh, just read this:

Birgitte's smile tightened. "And I knew a woman like you, once. Mathena looked down her nose at men, too, and even had a poor fellow executed for coming on her by accident while she swam naked. She had never even been kissed, until Zheres stole one from her. You'd have thought she had discovered men for the first time. She became so besotted, Zheres had to go live on a mountain to escape her. Watch out for the first man to kiss you. One has to come along sooner or later."
Zaltys/Veles was the demon Perun had to fight against. And in the dream, he looks like Lan...

(Also note the Athena parallel.)

In one version of the Tiresias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiresias) myth, Tiresias stumbled upon Athena bathing, and he was struck blind by her to ensure he would never again see what man was not intended to see. But having lost his eyesight, he was given a special gift - to be able to understand the language of the birds (and thus to foretell the future).

Terez
05-26-2012, 03:53 AM
I wonder if Moghedien made the unicorn:

Creating fantastical flowers or shapes by thinking of them was much more fun. The effort involved seemed related to both how large the thing was and whether it might really exist. Trees covered with wildly shaped blossoms in red and gold and purple were harder to make than a stand-mirror to examine what you had done to your dress, or what the other woman had done to it. A gleaming crystal palace rising out of the ground was harder still, and even if felt solid to the touch, it changed whenever the image in your mind wavered and vanished as soon as the image did. They quietly decided to leave animals alone after a peculiar thing – much like a horse with a horn on its nose! – chased them both up a hill before they could make it vanish. That very nearly sparked a new argument, with each of them claiming the other had made it, but by that time Elayne had recovered enough of her old self to start giggling over how they must have looked, racing up the hill with their skirts hauled up, shouting at the thing to go away. Even Elayne's stubborn refusal to admit it had been her fault could not stop Nynaeve's giggles from bubbling up, too.
She was still on the ship with them at the time. She was also presumably responsible for the death of this guy:

All but two of the men were grizzled or balding, with leathery faces and work-callused hands. Younger men had been snatched into the army if they were not caught up by the Prophet; those who refused one or the other had been hanged. The young pair – little more than boys, really; Nynaeve doubted if either had to shave regularly – wore hunted stares, and flinched if one of the Shienarans looked at them. Sometimes the older men talked of starting over, finding a bit of land to farm or taking up their trade again, but the tone of their voices said it was more bluff and bravado than real hope. Mostly they talked quietly of their families; a wife lost, sons and daughters lost, grandchildren lost. They sounded lost. The second night, a jug-eared fellow who had seemed the most enthusiastic in a sad lot had just vanished; he was simply gone when the sun came up. He might have swum ashore. Nynaeve hoped he had.

GonzoTheGreat
05-26-2012, 05:33 AM
I wonder if Moghedien made the unicorn:
What would have been the point?

Does the unicorn show that they were both still virgins at that time?
I don't know whether or not that specific feature of the unicorn legends made it into the Third Age, so it's not entirely obvious.

Terez
05-26-2012, 06:28 AM
What would have been the point?
It was charging them until they ran away. It was a way for Moghedien to attack them without them realizing they were being attacked.

Also, I just realized something. I would have realized it before if I'd ever put any thought into it:

"You are very brave, it seems, Mat." It was flatly said, and the silence that followed stiffened his face. "Very brave," she said finally, "to lead Shen an Calhar across the Alguenya and south against the Andorans. Even braver than that, for there are rumors that you went alone to scout the way, and Talmanes and Nalesean had to ride hard to catch up to you." Egwene sniffed loudly in the background. "Hardly wise for a young lord leading his men."

Mat's lip curled. "I'm no lord; I've more respect for myself than that."

"But very brave," Moiraine said as if he had not spoken. "Andoran supply wagons burned, outposts destroyed. And three battles. Three battles, and three victories. With small loss to your own men, though outnumbered." As she fingered a rip in the shoulder of his coat he sank back as far the chair would allow. "Are you drawn to the thick of battles, or are they drawn to you? I am almost surprised you came back. To hear the stories, you might have driven the Andorans back across the Erinin had you stayed."
Rode alone to scout the way. lol. He was trying to bloody get away, and they followed him. He said so himself in his own POV a few pages later (or thought it), or I might not have realized it this time either.
The stormy meeting with Rand had gone on till the sun set, him dodging, refusing, Rand following as doggedly as Hawkwing after the rout at Cole Pass. What was he to do? If he rode out again, Talmanes and Nalesean would surely follow with as many men as they could put in the saddle, expecting him to find another battle. And he probably would; that was what really put a chill on it. Much as he hated to admit it, the Aes Sedai was right. He was drawn to battle or it to him. Nobody could have tried harder to avoid one on the other side of the Alguenya. Even Talmanes had commented on it. Until the second time his careful creeping away from one lot of Andorans took them where there was no choice but to fight another. And every time he could feel the dice rolling in his head; it was almost like a warning that a fight was just over the next hill, now.
That particular detail (the 'scout') is the only thing I missed, but it made me laugh when I realized. It's not that I can't laugh at stuff I've laughed at before, but it's nice to know that WoT still has new stuff for me, and probably always will.

Terez
05-26-2012, 07:13 AM
Just realized another something:

"If you are not mine," she said coldly, "then you are dead."

Agony in his chest, as if his heart was about to explode, in his head, white-hot nails driving into his brain, pain so strong that inside the Void he wanted to scream. Death was there, and he knew it. Frantically – even in the Void, frantic; emptiness shimmered, dwindled – he wove Spirit and Fire and Earth, flailing it wildly. His heart was no longer beating. Fingers of dark pain crushing the Void. Gray veil falling over his eyes. He felt his weave slice raggedly through hers. The burn of breath in empty lungs, lurch of heart beginning to pump again. He could see again, silver and black flecks floated between him and a stone-faced Lanfear still catching her balance from the rebound of her flows. The pain was there in head and chest like wounds, but the Void firmed, and bodily pain was remote.

Well that it was distant, for he had no time to recover. Forcing himself to move forward, he struck at her with Air, a club to knock her senseless. She slashed the weave, and he struck again, again, again each time that she sliced through his last weave, a furious rain of blows she somehow saw and countered, always moving closer. If he could keep her occupied for a moment more, if one of those invisible cudgels landed on her head, if he could get close enough to strike her with his fist... Unconscious, she would be as helpless as anyone else.

Suddenly she seemed to realize what he was doing. Still blocking his blows as easily as if she could see every one, she danced backwards until her shoulders hit the wagon behind her. And she smiled like winter's heart. "You will die slowly, and beg me to let you love me before you die," she said.

It was not at him directly that she struck this time. It was at his link to saidin.
That is, that she smiled 'like winter's heart' because she realized he didn't want to kill her. And she took it the wrong way, of course. I might have realized that before, but if I had I'd forgotten it again.

Davian93
05-26-2012, 07:33 AM
It was charging them until they ran away. It was a way for Moghedien to attack them without them realizing they were being attacked.

Also, I just realized something. I would have realized it before if I'd ever put any thought into it:


Rode alone to scout the way. lol. He was trying to bloody get away, and they followed him. He said so himself in his own POV a few pages later (or thought it), or I might not have realized it this time either.

That particular detail (the 'scout') is the only thing I missed, but it made me laugh when I realized. It's not that I can't laugh at stuff I've laughed at before, but it's nice to know that WoT still has new stuff for me, and probably always will.

Yeah, I've always loved that part.

GonzoTheGreat
05-26-2012, 07:37 AM
Also, I just realized something. I would have realized it before if I'd ever put any thought into it:


Rode alone to scout the way. lol. He was trying to bloody get away, and they followed him. He said so himself in his own POV a few pages later (or thought it), or I might not have realized it this time either.
You should've told me that you hadn't caught this one. It was intuitively obvious to me the first time I read it, so I could have explained it to you also (I think).

Terez
05-26-2012, 09:26 AM
Like I said, I would have understood it myself if I had put any thought into it. I didn't.

Terez
05-27-2012, 05:02 AM
I had forgotten about this:

As though Desaine’s doubts had infected Therava, she began muttering, only half to herself. "What is ill done is going against Aes Sedai. We served them before the Breaking, and failed them; that is why we were sent to the Three-fold Land. If we fail them again, we will be destroyed."
That's one of those scenes I rarely look at for WoT discussion (especially that part of it), and so it slipped through the cracks somewhere. It's kind of strange knowing that Therava even cares.

Now on to Lion on the Hill, one of the most beautifully-written chapters in all of WoT.

Terez
05-27-2012, 09:44 AM
Something I tweeted about the other day: I think that maybe the whole 'Dragon is one with the Land' thing might possibly explain the freaky weather. I only bring it up because it makes sense in a strange way.

Let's say that the Fisher King thing becomes active when Rand becomes ta'veren. RJ said that happened just before (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=5#16) Moiraine appeared in the Two Rivers. You might say that it was the day before, but I think his comment leaves enough room for a few months. They had to draw Moiraine and Thom to the Two Rivers, probably, so it would make sense.

Even one month might have been enough, or perhaps two. Some time during the natural winter, Rand became ta'veren. And he was cold. So it stayed cold, until he traveled to the Blight. His victory there brought on the spring, finally.

Linda thinks there are two things going on here—Fisher King, and the Eddings-like game-using-surrogates thing—and I can buy that, but I think that, either way, it's not the Dark One's touch on the world, exactly.

The next time the weather went wonky was when Rand was in the Waste, where it's hot. And dry. (Except at night.) When they came out, it should have been into autumn, but instead, the fires of heaven were purging the earth:

With his coming are the dread fires born again. The hills burn, and the land turns sere. The tides of men run out, and the hours dwindle. The wall is pierced, and the veil of parting raised. Storms rumble beyond the horizon, and the fires of heaven purge the earth. There is no salvation without destruction, no hope this side of death.

fragment from The Prophecies of the Dragon believed translated by N'Delia Basolaine First Maid and Swordfast to Raidhen of Hol Cuchone (circa 400 AB)
And that little problem didn't get fixed until the Bowl was used in TPOD. But we got the Fisher King prophecy in ACOS, when it was still bloody hot:

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love.

From a much-disputed translation of The Prophecies of the Dragon by the poet Kyera Termendal of Shiota, believed to have been published between FY 700 and FY 800

And then the second paragraph of the prologue:

This high, an almost constant breeze lessened the unnatural heat gripping the world. The Feast of Lights past, snow should have covered the ground deep, yet the weather belonged in the depths of a hard summer. Another sign that the Last Battle approached and the Dark One touched the world, if more were needed. Elaida did not let the heat touch her even when she descended, of course. The breeze was not why she had had her quarters moved up here, despite the inconvenience of so many stairs, to these simple rooms.
Those are the only two times the weather went wonky. The first time, he fixed it himself, either by using the Eye or beating Ishamael or just because he was in the Blight and he was warm, or because he went to Someshta's place. Which might have been the real purpose of the Eye. The second time he was off in crazyland with Lews Therin (barring that brief moment without him which was, if anything, worse), so his girlfriends had to fix it for him.

GonzoTheGreat
05-27-2012, 10:09 AM
Then why wasn't the weather fixed when Rand cooled off in the Far Snows?
That should've put an end to the long hot summer, if your theory is correct.

And, of course, there's also the fact that Moridin seems to think it is the result of something the DO did:
The name meant nothing to him. But... a ter’angrealto control the weather... In his own Age, weather had been carefully regulated with the use of ter’angreal. One of the surprises of this Age – one of the smaller, it had seemed – was that there were those who could manipulate weather to a degree that should have required one of those ter’angreal. One such device should not be enough to affect even a large part of a single continent. But what could these women do with it? What? If they used a ring?
He seized the True Power without thought, the saabillowing black across his sight. His fingers tightened in the wrought-iron grille across the window; the metal groaned, twisting, not from his grip but from the tendrils of the True Power, drawn from the Great Lord himself, that wreathed around the grillework, flexing as he flexed his hand in anger. The Great Lord would not be pleased. He had strained from his prison to touch the world enough to fix the seasons in place. He was impatient to touch the world more, to shatter the void that contained him, and he would not be pleased. Rage enveloped Moridin, blood pounding in his ears. A moment past, he had not cared where those women went, but now... Somewhere far from here. People fleeing ran as far and as fast as they could. Somewhere they felt safe. No use sending Madic to ask questions, no use squeezing anyone here; they would not have been fool enough to leave anyone behind alive who knew their destination. Not to Tar Valon. To al’Thor? To that band of rebel Aes Sedai? In all three places he had eyes, some that did not know they served him. All would serve him, before the end. He would not allow chance slips to spoil his plans now.

Terez
05-27-2012, 10:29 AM
Then why wasn't the weather fixed when Rand cooled off in the Far Snows?
Presumably because he wasn't there long enough. Same reason the nights won't do it.

And, of course, there's also the fact that Moridin seems to think it is the result of something the DO did:
Moridin thinks a lot of funny things.

Zombie Sammael
05-27-2012, 12:56 PM
That would explain why, when the girls went looking for "something that would help Rand", they found the Bowl of Winds, especially if (as I suspect) Rand's link with the land is a two way street.

jana
05-27-2012, 08:54 PM
Rand's link with the land is a two way street.

So is your mom.

Sorry. I'm trying to put off doing something.

Marie Curie 7
05-27-2012, 10:27 PM
That would explain why, when the girls went looking for "something that would help Rand", they found the Bowl of Winds, especially if (as I suspect) Rand's link with the land is a two way street.

I'm not sure why you have to "suspect" that the link goes both ways. The prophecies state it directly:

A Crown of Swords, Epigraph

"There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love."

- From a much-disputed translation of The Prophecies of the Dragon by the poet Kyera Termendal, of Shiota, believed to have been published between FY 700 and FY 800.

Zombie Sammael
05-28-2012, 05:37 AM
I'm not sure why you have to "suspect" that the link goes both ways. The prophecies state it directly:

Did you have anything to contribute, or did you just want to put me in my place?

Terez
05-28-2012, 06:36 AM
It appears as though she wanted to point out that we already know the link goes both ways. I wouldn't read anything into it beyond that; Marie has a thing for facts.

Terez
05-28-2012, 07:30 AM
Morvrin, Carlinya and Anaiya glided swiftly out to the anteroom, where the Keeper's worktable would be. That was Alviarin Freidhen, under Elaida; a White, strangely, though the Keeper always came from the Amyrlin's own Ajah.
That word was emphasized in Elayne's head. But you'd think she'd know about Sierin Vayu, since it wasn't that long ago...

GonzoTheGreat
05-28-2012, 09:04 AM
That word was emphasized in Elayne's head. But you'd think she'd know about Sierin Vayu, since it wasn't that long ago...
As novices, AS get special classes in ignoring things they don't want to think about. That's probably why Nynaeve isn't all that good in it, all she has is natural talent rather than training.

Terez
05-28-2012, 09:35 AM
Something else I'd forgotten about:

In Tear, Balwer’s agents had convinced Tedosian and Estanda to join Darlin, turning a show of defiance into real rebellion, and the man was confident the same could be done in Cairhien, and in Andor.
I think most people must have forgotten that; no one ever mentions it. But it's neat that Balwer was the mastermind of all that, and that he might have had something to do with Toram Riatin and Caraline Damodred, and all the exiled nobles in Andor supporting Dyelin too. I will have to keep an eye out for signs of it.

Also, just because I often forget exactly where this passage is:

"I thought I saw Rand." That brought the facecloth down.

"Was he there in the flesh?" That was dangerous, according to the Wise Ones; it risked losing some part of what made you human. "You warned him about that."

"When did he start listening to sense? I only glimpsed him. Maybe he just touched Tel’aran’rhiod in a dream." Unlikely, that. He apparently hedged his dreams with wards so strong she did not think he could reach the World of Dreams any other way than in the flesh, not even if he had been a Dreamwalker and had one of the rings. "Maybe it was somebody who looked a little like him. As I said, I only saw him for a moment, in the square in front of the Tower."

Terez
05-29-2012, 04:05 AM
I just read the first line about knowing the ground to make a gateway, in LOC, Lessons and Teachers. I think RJ made that up to explain why Rand couldn't make his own gateway in TFOH, A Short Spear. He only knew Skimming at the time, though, and he should have been able to make a Skimming gateway. But later RJ made up the rule about knowing the place you're going to for Skimming, presumably to explain why Rand could follow Asmodean from Alcair Dal, and forgetting about A Short Spear. And then later he made up the rule about having to copy the weave exactly to see someone else in the Skimming Space; not sure why he made that rule up, but it doesn't work either because of Rand following Asmodean. You could argue that Rand didn't know his room in Eianrod well enough to make a Skimming gateway back, but then Aviendha shouldn't have been able to make a Traveling gateway either.

GonzoTheGreat
05-29-2012, 06:16 AM
I think that Rand has a Talent for Traveling, so for him, those rules are more like guidelines.

Terez
05-29-2012, 06:38 AM
Except that we know he can't Travel long distances without knowing the ground. At least, in later books we do.

GonzoTheGreat
05-29-2012, 06:52 AM
Except that we know he can't Travel long distances without knowing the ground. At least, in later books we do.
Yeah, in the prologue of the first book he did just that with no trouble at all.

Terez
05-29-2012, 07:06 AM
That time he used Need.

GonzoTheGreat
05-29-2012, 07:14 AM
That time he used Need.
Which, supposedly, only works in TAR.

Terez
05-29-2012, 07:23 AM
Supposedly.

Zombie Sammael
05-29-2012, 08:39 AM
The Skimming Space is akin to TAR, so maybe *waves hands* was how he did it.

Terez
05-29-2012, 09:05 AM
That would explain why, when the girls went looking for "something that would help Rand", they found the Bowl of Winds, especially if (as I suspect) Rand's link with the land is a two way street.
They were actually looking for a ter'angreal, not in Tar Valon. I just read it. ;)

Terez
05-29-2012, 10:15 AM
When I realized this bit was coming, I almost skipped it. Glad I didn't; this made me laugh:

The real Rand was of a height and size with Gawyn, but this image overtopped Gawyn by a head. The face was just vaguely Rand’s, coarser and harder than it should be, the cold face of a murderer. This man wore a sneer. "You will not have her," he snarled.

"You will not keep her," Gawyn replied calmly, and suddenly both men held swords.

Egwene gaped. Not Gawyn holding her prisoner. He dreamed of rescuing her! From Rand! Time to leave this madness. She concentrated on being outside, back in the darkness, looking at this from the outside. Nothing happened.
Also, I'd forgotten that Gawyn is as tall as Rand.

PS—I hadn't forgotten the swordfight, but I didn't remember Egwene's thoughts. Priceless, they are.

Terez
05-29-2012, 12:25 PM
"Leaving the dream of someone who hates you, or loves you," Bair finished, "is like trying to climb from a deep pit with sheer sides."

"There is that." Amys seemed to recover her humor suddenly; she gave Melaine a sidelong glance. "That is why no dream-walker ever makes the mistake of trying to watch her husband’s dreams." Melaine stared straight ahead, face darkening. "She does not make it twice anyway," Amys added.
But in TFOH Amys took her to Rhuarc's dream, and retrieved her from it:

The Wise Ones had some considerable mastery over their own dreams, so what had happened there – to show her the dangers, they said – had all been their doing, but it had been a shock to learn that Rhuarc saw her as a little more than a child, like his youngest daughters. And her own control had wavered for one fatal moment. After that she had been little more than a child; she still could not look at the man without remembering being given a doll for studying hard. And being as pleased with the gift as with his approval. Amys had had to come and take her away from happy play with it. Amys knowing was bad enough, but she suspected that Rhuarc remembered some of it, too....

....Amys had guided her to Rhuarc's dreams – she herself had remained only an instant, barely long enough to reveal that Rhuarc still saw her, unchanged, as the young woman he had married – and the Wise Ones had always been in the same tent before when she tried.

Zombie Sammael
05-29-2012, 02:46 PM
They were actually looking for a ter'angreal, not in Tar Valon. I just read it. ;)

Didn't it start out as "something to help Rand", then a ter'angreal, then fix on something to fix the weather? You've read it slightly more recently than I; I looked at it quickly when I posted about it initially.

Terez
05-29-2012, 03:37 PM
The idea was to find something to help Rand, but they didn't think about him when searching.

Terez
05-30-2012, 05:22 AM
"They cut down the grove as soon as the Ogier departed for the stedding," Haman muttered angrily, long brows drawn down, "no more than twenty or thirty years, and extended the city."
I've wondered about this before. Seems to imply that Aridhol was a bad egg long before Mordeth showed up. I wonder if RJ intended that.

Also...
Rand had visited an Ogier stedding twice...
Wat?

Terez
05-30-2012, 05:34 AM
Two questions:

1. Why did the evil in Shadar Logoth get stronger between TEOTW and LOC?

2. Why can't Rand control his anger inside the Void any more at this point?

Zombie Sammael
05-30-2012, 06:12 AM
The idea was to find something to help Rand, but they didn't think about him when searching.

Ah, I guess I'd assumed that having that in the back of their minds would have had some effect on the search. I guess I could claim that it probably did given your idea regarding the Bowl of Winds and Rand's oneness with the land.

I've wondered about this before. Seems to imply that Aridhol was a bad egg long before Mordeth showed up. I wonder if RJ intended that.

Also...

Wat?

No idea on the second one, but perhaps Mordeth had actually shown up by the time the Ogier left, given how long Ogier take to do things.

Two questions:

1. Why did the evil in Shadar Logoth get stronger between TEOTW and LOC?

2. Why can't Rand control his anger inside the Void any more at this point?

1. Something-something Mordeth-Fain.

2. The taint.

GonzoTheGreat
05-30-2012, 06:26 AM
Wat?
Once was the visit to Stedding Tsofu, when Loial met Erith. The other one I think I'll leave as an exercise for the reader. :p

1. Why did the evil in Shadar Logoth get stronger between TEOTW and LOC?
It had eaten and digested quite a lot of Trollocs in that period.
Padan Fain may also have had an influence.

Terez
05-30-2012, 07:11 AM
This has always been one of my favorite Mat bits:
Soil crunching underfoot warned him, and he spun swinging the spear with a snarl. Barely in time he stopped the slashing blade, as Olver screamed and fell flat on his back, staring wide-eyed at the spearpoint.

"What in the bloody Pit of Doom are you doing here?" Mat snapped.

"I... I... " The boy stopped to swallow. "They say fifty Aiel tried to kill you in your sleep, Lord Mat, but you killed them first, and I wanted to see if you were all right, and... Lord Edorion bought me some shoes. See?" He raised a shod foot.
Especially the last bit.

Terez
05-30-2012, 07:28 AM
"What should it matter a few Maidens died?" The look on his face was truly puzzled. "It was battle; soldiers die in battle. Al’Thor may be a farmer, but he has generals to fight his battles and explain matters. I doubt he even noticed."

"You really never have looked at these people. They have changed as much as the land, Sammael. Not just, the Aiel. In some ways, the rest have changed much more. Those soldiers were women, and to Rand al’Thor, that makes a difference."
A strange thing to change, going from a world with gender equality to a world where women hold the highest stations as Aes Sedai (and some as queens or Firsts or what have you). Perhaps they simply didn't live long enough with war to understand how vulnerable women were? Or something. But there are a lot of little details like this, things that don't make much sense.

Davian93
05-30-2012, 07:39 AM
Two questions:

1. Why did the evil in Shadar Logoth get stronger between TEOTW and LOC?

2. Why can't Rand control his anger inside the Void any more at this point?

1. Perhaps because Mordeth was freed and had access to fresh souls?

2. The taint.


As for the Stedding visit, perhaps its seepage from the LTT memories...

Terez
05-30-2012, 07:58 AM
Somehow, I doubt Lews Therin only visited one stedding in all his four hundred years. But since you brought it up, there's one bit I just read a few chapters ago that is subtle enough to slip under the radar:

"I see you, Havien Nurelle," Rand said gravely, and the boy blinked. Boy? Come to think on it, he might be no younger than Rand. That was a shock!
There was another one back in TSR I tweeted about:

None of the other men had done so, but he bowed to Lian; that was how he had been brought up.
Was not.

Davian93
05-30-2012, 08:05 AM
Somehow, I doubt Lews Therin only visited one stedding in all his four hundred years. But since you brought it up, there's one bit I just read a few chapters ago that is subtle enough to slip under the radar:


So do I...but its the only plausable explanation outside of a simple typo that I could come up with.

Was not.

Well, LTT was brought up that way...

GonzoTheGreat
05-30-2012, 08:12 AM
Was not.
He lived in Caemlyn first, or somewhere like that.

Terez
05-30-2012, 08:13 AM
So do I...but its the only plausable explanation outside of a simple typo that I could come up with.
I thought maybe he had passed one on the way to Tear in TDR; we saw so little of him it's quite possible. But other than that, I can't think of anything.

Davian93
05-30-2012, 08:31 AM
I thought maybe he had passed one on the way to Tear in TDR; we saw so little of him it's quite possible. But other than that, I can't think of anything.

That's a possibility at least. I tend to think its a typo to be honest...RJ just confused Perrin and Rand in his head when he wrote the line.

Terez
05-30-2012, 08:33 AM
Yeah, I assumed it probably was. He had it straight for the rest of the chapter, and even talked about Rand's visit to Tsofu. And made clear that he had only heard of the abandoned stedding from Perrin.

Terez
05-30-2012, 10:18 AM
Reading these early Sorilea chapters makes it easy to remember why no one believed she was a Darkfriend until after TGS, despite all the hints. The hints mostly come in later books. At first, she appears to be a very honorable Aiel, and even seems to have a sense of humor when she is not staring daggers at someone. We got more hints with Melindhra, mainly her comments to Mat about being in Rand's shadow, and glory and honor and all that, but Melindhra was not Sorilea, and even though she was a weaker character, she still had a serious internal battle because Far Dareis Mai was so important to her, and because ji'e'toh is a part of the Aiel. It's a competition, which is why I think Sorilea enjoys it. But also, playing the game to a T is what makes the other Wise Ones trust and respect her, and that puts them at her disposal when there is something crucial at stake, the same way she puts Cadsuane at her disposal for later use with the Water Oath and the Traveling weave. (Which doubly foreshadows her ultimate betrayal.)

Davian93
05-30-2012, 10:23 AM
Yeah, my last reread made me 99% convinced she's a DF. Before that, I thought it was going to be Amys but Sorilea makes far more sense as Amys would have betrayed more due to her dreaming knowledge.

Terez
05-30-2012, 10:32 AM
As far as I can tell, there isn't even a hint that Amys is a Darkfriend.

Davian93
05-30-2012, 10:38 AM
As far as I can tell, there isn't even a hint that Amys is a Darkfriend.

I agree. I thought she was simply because of the complete lack of any indicators (red herring in my mind at that time) and the fact that no high ranking Aiel had been outed as of yet. This was before all the Sorilea hints came out and before we were hammered with the Sorilea hints in TGS.

Terez
05-30-2012, 11:53 AM
This is starting to get a little annoying.
"Six days ago I killed a man," he began without preamble, "a treekiller, and I must know if I have toh to you, Rand al’Thor."
"Since I caused Sulin to do what she did, don’t I have toh toward her?"

Apparently it was possible to make a bigger fool of himself than he already had. Somehow Aviendha’s face grew redder still, and Jalani took a sudden interest in the carpet under her feet. Even Nandera looked a little chagrined at his ignorance. You could be told that you had toh, though that was insulting, or you could be reminded of it, but asking meant that you did not know.

Davian93
05-30-2012, 12:37 PM
How dare Rand not know the ins and outs of the Aiel's convoluted honor system...because I'm sure that was top on his list of things to learn while in the Waste.

Weiramon
05-30-2012, 01:03 PM
Burn my soul, its no surprise these black-eyed savages don't even understand their own code of honour.

Best they be hanged.

Heinz
05-30-2012, 01:13 PM
How dare Rand not know the ins and outs of the Aiel's convoluted honor system...because I'm sure that was top on his list of things to learn while in the Waste.

It was supposed to be.. can't help it a 20ish-year-old had other things on his mind while Avi was talking.

Terez
05-30-2012, 01:23 PM
Love Logain checking out Elayne and Nynaeve before he gets Healed. And somehow I forgot Elayne was sitting there, even though I knew Nynaeve sent her off to fetch Aes Sedai when it was done. As I was reading it I kept expecting Elayne to go off and do something else.

Terez
05-30-2012, 01:45 PM
Also. Nynaeve Healing Logain is kind of like The Price of a Ship.

"There's no need for this, Nynaeve. Do you think I'll decide to attack a village with hundreds of Aes Sedai in it? They'd chop me to pieces before I took two steps."
It's funny seeing her scared to death, as opposed to being mad at Galad.

Terez
05-30-2012, 01:55 PM
One thing I had forgotten is that none of the Yellows would even talk to Nynaeve before she actually Healed Logain, because she was trying to find a way to Heal Siuan and Leane, and they thought she was getting above herself.

GonzoTheGreat
05-31-2012, 03:24 AM
One thing I had forgotten is that none of the Yellows would even talk to Nynaeve before she actually Healed Logain, because she was trying to find a way to Heal Siuan and Leane, and they thought she was getting above herself.
Well, she was, and then she did, and then they had a problem.

Terez
05-31-2012, 06:14 AM
It's funny how they all start competing after that to break her block, too. I've read quite a bit past that, and nothing much to say, except that Torval was apparently Tolvar in the first edition.

Terez
05-31-2012, 07:34 AM
Okay, I do have a few things to say:

1. I remembered that Anaiya had decorated Moiraine's room in New Spring (when Moiraine was raised Aes Sedai), but I'd forgotten she did Egwene's room too. Both of them complained about the lace.

2. Mat flirting with Siuan was hilarious. "I asked you once whether you'd be there when the house was burning down, boy, but it seems you make a habit of jumping into fires." Hilarious, and a good reminder of that line, which was awesome when it was said in the first place.

3. Mat getting kissed by Leane was just fantastic. It's so funny seeing Mat surrounded by a bunch of pretty women, and they're all Aes Sedai (or Halima, who he knows can channel even if no one else does, even Delana). If you count Joline, Mat has probably kissed more Aes Sedai than anyone except Logain, and that's not counting Tuon. Also, Myrelle trying to talk him into being her Warder (along with four other women including Delana) was great.

3. Vanin rocks. He managed to get in and out of Salidar without being seen by Warders not once, but twice.

Terez
05-31-2012, 12:14 PM
RJ really has a nice way of building to climaxes using a prelude of tedium and frustration. I get that some people don't have any appreciation for it, but I've noticed that he often uses a sort of recap style, sometimes covering a few days, before hitting you with the unexpected. (On first read anyway.) But there's a sort of cadence to the tedium and frustration.

I wanted to comment on this bit when I read it, but there were a few things that came to mind as to what exactly it foreshadowed. Now that I'm near the end with all the plotlines basically boiled down to one, save for a couple of diversions that are quite beautifully related, I'm sure it refers to the Aes Sedai (specifically the Black Ajah). I think the foreshadowing is direct, like this:

Reene studied him a moment, then spread her skirts in another deep curtsy. "I will send [Elenia] to you, my Lord Dragon." Her back was stiff as she glided away, but it always was; there were no telling whether she believed a word.

"A crafty enemy," Caldin said heatedly before Reene had gone five paces, "will set a weak ambush you are meant to break through. Confident because you have dealt with the threat, your guard relaxed, you walk into the second, stronger ambush."

Right on top of Caldin, Nandera said in a cold voice, "Young men can be impetuous, young men can be rash, young men can be fools, but the Car’a’carn cannot let himself be a young man."
This is just after Rand was attacked by Fain's Whitecloaks, so it could refer to a second attack by Fain (Demira), but almost certainly refers on the larger scale to the Black Ajah manipulation of the two Aes Sedai embassies. Verin manipulated the one (making Fain unlikely for Demira), and Galina the other, presumably on orders. In Verin's defense, she was no doubt smart enough to know it would all turn out in Rand's favor, if not hers. After he fled Verin's manipulation in Caemlyn, and the magic number thirteen:

But despite Shaido and nobles, Wise Ones and riot, despite wondering whether Fel was ever going to come back from fishing, those days seemed... pleasant. Refreshing. Maybe it was just because he had been so tired on arrival. And maybe it really was only by comparison with those last hours in Caemlyn, yet it did seem that Lews Therin was quieter. Rand even found himself enjoying Min’s teasing enough that once or twice he had to remind himself that it was only teasing. By the time he had been ten days in Cairhien, he thought this would not be such a bad way to spend the rest of his life. Of course, he knew it could not last.
After that, RJ slips into a sort of omni-like approach, carrying over the narrative to Perrin's POV, almost like he did in TSR 9, but with proper breaks between POV shifts. "For Perrin those ten days were not pleasant at all..." and then back to Rand's POV, with "On the tenth day, Rand received another request from Coiren for an audience, just as politely worded as the first three." And of course we all know what happens next.

I find it interesting that he was very specifically not listening to the voice in his head. The voice that might have told him he was a fool to think he was sure how many Aes Sedai were in Cairhien when it had taken Min galloping across Caemlyn to warn him of the twelfth and thirteenth there. And that he was a fool to think a Red Amyrlin could be trusted half as far as any who stood against the Reds on principle. That he was a fool to trust Alviarin, or anyone who might be her 'friend'.

Back to reading. :)

Terez
05-31-2012, 04:57 PM
Last line on page 671:
Why? That was Half Tail, passed along and scent-marked.Even knowing what's coming, a loaded page-turn. Actually, only because you know what's coming.

Tomp
05-31-2012, 05:17 PM
Wat?

Would the Trolloc monument after entering the alternate world ((don't remember if it's mirror world or the other one) via the portal stone in tGH) count.
We know that it was at the place of Hawkwing's statue and that statue was in the heart ofthe city that he intended to build.


Edited: Ignore it. Mixed up Hawkwing's victory spire with Hawkwing's statue.

Terez
05-31-2012, 05:18 PM
Would the Trolloc monument after entering the alternate world ((don't remember if it's mirror world or the other one) via the portal stone in tGH) count.
No.

We know that it was at the place of Hawkwing's statue
Do we now.

Terez
05-31-2012, 07:08 PM
Done with LOC. Overall, there were a lot more annoying errors in this book than in previous books. I think maybe RJ was starting to show the strain of those diminishing returns.

One thing that bugs me in particular is the knotted shield. It doesn't make any sense; the purpose of linking is to channel all that Power as if it's just one person's Power, one person's weaves. If it's not a link then you'd think RJ could have explained it a little better.

Terez
06-01-2012, 09:58 AM
"Six?" the hazel-eyed woman said incredulously. "Six could not take him. I am sure of it."

"I told you he was injured," Alanna half-wept. Perrin knew her scent well enough to pick it out; she smelled of pain. "I told you." Verin kept silent, but she smelled furious – and afraid.
That was always a point in Verin's favor, but I meant to post about this earlier in relation to what I was saying earlier about the second ambush quote, and how Verin manipulated the Caemlyn embassy into driving Rand back to Cairhien, and Galina. I can't think that Verin was ignorant of why she was being ordered to do that (and I definitely don't believe she did it because she wanted to), whether they kept her in the dark or not. They probably did keep her in the dark, but Verin isn't stupid. Perhaps she believed that they wouldn't pull it off, or perhaps she didn't believe them stupid enough to try. But I wonder what she thought it was that she was driving him toward, if not that.

Terez
06-01-2012, 11:31 AM
Footer quote of LOC:

The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign. The seas rage, and stormclouds gather unseen. Beyond the horizon, hidden fires swell, and serpents nestle in the bosom. What was exalted is cast down; what was cast down is raised up. Order burns to clear his path.
The Prophecies of the Dragon translation by Jeorad Manyard Governor of the Province of Andor for the High King, Artur Paendrag Tanreall
Taim, Sheriam, and Sorilea are particularly bosomy in this book. Most of the others play lesser roles, even Verin and Galina, and they're not really in the bosom since Rand doesn't trust them. He doesn't trust Taim either, but he pretends like he does, and he gave him control of the Black Tower.

I did find it odd that RJ used a governor of Andor for this one who wasn't Endara Casalain, Ishara's mother. We know that Andor had a non-Andoran governor at first until Hawkwing relented and let the nobles of Aldeshar return. They were the last nation to fall to him, and Mat remembers being Culain, who commanded their army until Hawkwing won. But it was only something like 4 years before he relented. He ruled a long time, though, so I suppose there could have been several governors; I just thought it an odd choice.

Terez
06-01-2012, 12:02 PM
Does anyone have a new version (like the ebook) of ACOS? I'm wondering if this has been caught yet:

Had he been twenty years younger - well, twenty-five - and she not trained by the Tar Valon witches. It was easy to forget that, in her presence. The White Tower was a sink of iniquity and the Shadow, and she touched deeply by it. Rhadam Asunawa, the High Inquisitor, would have tried her for her months in the White Tower and hanged her without delay, had Niall allowed it.
Nevermind, I just realized what that actually says.

Marie Curie 7
06-01-2012, 01:35 PM
Per request, all the discussion on Sorilea as a Darkfriend has been moved to its own thread in the General WOT forum. Enjoy. :)

Terez
06-01-2012, 01:53 PM
Thanks Marie. I cut this bit from one of my posts that also had to do with Sorilea, not that it's very exciting or anything.

____________

Superstitious fear lanced through her as she pulled her spear free. The Aes Sedai had called wolves to fight for them. She could not take her gaze from the wolf she had killed. The Aes Sedai had... No. No! It could change nothing. She would not let it.
Makes me wonder what the superstition was. Sevanna's reaction can probably be best described as awe.

Terez
06-01-2012, 04:08 PM
This is something that gets discussed a lot, but it's been a while for me, so I can't remember really what has been said before. There's not much to discuss, exactly.
"One," Rand cut in. "And I will choose." Taim smiled, spreading his hands in acquiescence, but the scent of frustration nearly overwhelmed anger. Again Rand pointed without looking. "Him." This time, he seemed surprised to find he was pointing directly at a man in his middle years sitting atop an upturned cask on the other side of the wagon circle, paying no attention to the gathering around Rand. Instead, elbow on his knee and chin propped on his hand, he was frowning at the Aes Sedai prisoners. The sword and Dragon glittered on the high collar of his black coat. "What is his name, Taim?"

"Dashiva," Taim said slowly, studying Rand. He smelled even more surprised than Rand did, and irritated, too. "Corlan Dashiva. From a farm in the Black Hills."

"He will do," Rand said, but he did not sound sure himself.

"Dashiva is gaining his strength rapidly, but his head is in the clouds often as not. Even when it isn't, he is not always entirely there. Maybe he's just a daydreamer, and maybe the taint on saidin is touching his brain already. Better for you to chose Torval or Rochaid or - "

Taim's opposition seemed to sweep away Rand's uncertainty. "I said Dashiva will do. Tell him he's to come with me, then turn the prisoners over to the Wise Ones and go. I don't intend to stand here all day arguing. Perrin, ready everyone to move. Find me when they are."
I like how it was Taim's arguing that made Rand sure he had picked the right guy. He obviously knew Taim was trying to put one of his lackies on him.

How much did Taim know about him? We know that every man with the Dragon pin aside from Logain is a Darkfriend, and Taim only gave it to Logain because he knew he couldn't get away with keeping it from him. Was that because of his strength, or because of his fame? Strength doesn't seem a very likely reason for it, since I doubt all the Darkfriends just so happen to be the strongest, unless Taim has been killing off strong non-Darkfriends, or turning them and sending them to the Blightfortress or something.

If Taim knew he was a Darkfriend, then he had to also know he was a very high-ranking one, in the same way that Delana knew Aran'gar was high-ranking (even though she didn't know s/he could channel). Someone Taim couldn't expect to do what he wanted, or he wouldn't have been reluctant to send him.

I know that's the obvious interpretation, but I mainly brought it up because of the literary irony aspect, which I think was really well done. And of course, at this time, the reader doesn't know that every man with the Dragon pin is a Darkfriend; we find that out later from Logain.

Terez
06-01-2012, 05:24 PM
Also, obvious hints are obvious:
"Can you make a gateway, Dashiva?"

"Of course." Dashiva began dry-washing his hands, flicking at his lips with the tip of his tongue, and Perrin wondered whether the man was always this jittery, or just when speaking to the Dragon Reborn. "That is to say, the M'hael teaches Traveling as soon as a student shows himself strong enough."

"The M’Hael?" Rand said, blinking.

"The Lord Mazrim Taim’s title, my Lord Dragon. It means ‘leader.’ In the Old Tongue." The fellow's smile managed to be nervous and patronizing at the same time. "I read a great deal on the farm. Every book the peddlers brought by."
When I first read WoT, Winter's Heart was already out, so I don't remember if I picked up on it. But that's twice in a row he was overly defensive. It's not as if Taim couldn't have told him what M'Hael meant, but he felt the need to make up some stupid story because Taim had told Rand he was a farmer.

Terez
06-01-2012, 06:07 PM
I think someone must have complained about men only riding stallions or geldings and women only riding geldings or mares, because in the beginning of ACOS we get Kiruna with a stallion (which Rand stole) and Dashiva on a mare. Later in the book you get Egwene with a stallion, too...Kiruna's is named Tai'daishar, and Egwene's is named Daishar.

Also:

The Aiel were in danger of slipping away, and Rand’s enemies were coming together in one place. All it needed now was for the Forsaken to appear. And Sevanna with her Shaido. That would put the cream on the honeycake.
That's almost as good as Mat and Semirhage in WH.

Terez
06-01-2012, 07:57 PM
"Burn the Pattern," Perrin growled. "It can all burn, if it keeps her safe." Loial’s ears went rigid with shock, and even Gaul looked taken aback.
I remember looking for that quote about a year ago and not finding it. I think I gave up because it wasn't that important, but I realize now I was looking for it in the wrong place; I was sure it came from some time during the kidnapping saga, which starts in TPOD, so I never even looked in ACOS. I remember wondering if I had imagined it (and imagined the discussions about it), but a few times after that I saw others reference it (without quoting it), so I knew it wasn't just me.

Ieyasu
06-01-2012, 09:29 PM
Odd, I am in the midst of my own reread and you and I are almost lockstep page for page...

I noticed you speaking of editions, and I personally have bought the series in First Edition hard back since The Great Hunt came out... anyway, my current model for my reread is picking up the most recent ebook editions on my kindle fire... I have been going back and forth with my hardcovers... I have been rather surprised by some of the edition changes.

Ieyasu
06-01-2012, 09:43 PM
Something in ACOS that caught my attention was:


Perrin certainly did not feel like laughing. An Aiel could find something funny in having a sword stuck through him. Aes Sedai on top of everything else Light! He cut straight through to what was important. "Feraighin? My wife, Faile, is she well?"

She gave him a half-distracted stare, then visibly pulled together the tatters of her poise. "I think Faile Aybara is well, Sie'cair." she said with cool composure. Or almost. She tried to sneak glances at Sorilea from the corner of her eye. Sorilea was not amused, or anything close to it; arms folded, she gave Feraighin a perusal that made the one she had given Kiruna seem mild.

I do not recall what this title means. I do not recall Perrin being called such by other Aiel, or seeing it really come up again.

Does anyone know what this term means? What it means as a title? Is it related to the prophecies that involve him? (wolfking, blacksmith hammer, and the various things in the seanchan versions)

Marie Curie 7
06-01-2012, 10:41 PM
Something in ACOS that caught my attention was:

A Crown Of Swords
Perrin certainly did not feel like laughing. An Aiel could find something funny in having a sword stuck through him. Aes Sedai on top of everything else Light! He cut straight through to what was important. "Feraighin? My wife, Faile, is she well?"

She gave him a half-distracted stare, then visibly pulled together the tatters of her poise. "I think Faile Aybara is well, Sie'cair." she said with cool composure. Or almost. She tried to sneak glances at Sorilea from the corner of her eye. Sorilea was not amused, or anything close to it; arms folded, she gave Feraighin a perusal that made the one she had given Kiruna seem mild.

I do not recall what this title means. I do not recall Perrin being called such by other Aiel, or seeing it really come up again.

Does anyone know what this term means? What it means as a title? Is it related to the prophecies that involve him? (wolfking, blacksmith hammer, and the various things in the seanchan versions)

It's sei'cair (not sie'cair). which means 'golden eyes' or 'eyes of gold'.

Sei means 'eyes', as in sei'taer, which means 'level eyes' or sei'mosiev, which means 'lowered eyes'. (See the composite glossary entries (https://docs.google.com/View?docID=0ARw8aVNqPsL5ZGNqc3BqcWdfNDg0dm1mZHZuZ2 g&revision=_latest#seimosiev) for these definitions.)

Cair means 'golden'. See the Old Tongue Dictionary (http://www.angelfire.com/tx/jcs97b/otd.html), or else recall that the original name of Cairhien, Al'cair'rahienallen, meant 'Hill of the Golden Dawn' (or that Alcair Dal means 'golden bowl').

GonzoTheGreat
06-02-2012, 03:32 AM
When I first read WoT, Winter's Heart was already out, so I don't remember if I picked up on it. But that's twice in a row he was overly defensive. It's not as if Taim couldn't have told him what M'Hael meant, but he felt the need to make up some stupid story because Taim had told Rand he was a farmer.
Then again, this could also have been an effect of the Taint. It's not as if no other Ashaman wasn't a bit strange, now and then.

Terez
06-02-2012, 05:23 AM
Noticed this last night before I went to bed, and it's funny:

"This is... madness." Holding his reins stiffly, Dashiva booted the plump mare closer to Rand’s black. Reluctance twisted his features; perhaps even Asha’man worried at being too near Rand. "All it needs is one man with a... a bow, or a knife, and you don’t see him in time. Send one of the Asha’man to do what needs doing, or more, if you think it’s necessary. A gateway to the palace, and it can be done before anyone knows what has happened."

"And sit here past dark," Rand cut in, reining his gelding around to face Dashiva, "until they know this place well enough to open one?"
Rand hadn't yet figured out that you don't need to know the ground to Travel short distances. But Dashiva could hardly explain it to him.

Terez
06-02-2012, 06:53 AM
I like ACOS and do not think it is a slow book, but I can see how some people get that impression. RJ used an overlap from Dumai's Wells, the aftermath, and then the walk/run into Cairhien for exposition, and it took them two whole chapters to get from the gateway to the Sun Throne. I liked it, but if you're really looking forward to what happens when they get there, it's probably pretty annoying.

I love this, in the middle of all the drama:

"There... there is no need for this, Master al'Thor." Her voice became slightly unsteady for a moment. "Or my Lord Dragon, if you prefer. I assure you, I harbor no ill intentions toward you. If I did, I would have struck before you knew I was here."

"You might well have died if you had," Rand’s voice was icy steel; his face made it seem soft. "I'm not who has you shielded, Aes Sedai. Who are you? Why are you here? Answer me! I don't have much patience with... your kind. Unless you want to be hauled out to the Aiel camp? I wager the Wise Ones can make you speak freely."

This Annoura was not slow-witted. Her eyes darted to Aram, then to the aisle where the Asha’man stood. And she knew. They had to be who he meant, in their black coats, grim faces dry when every other but hers and Rand’s glistened. Young Jahar was watching her like a hawk watching a rabbit. Incongruously, Loial stood in the midst of them with his axe propped against his shoulder. One big hand managed to hold an ink bottle and an open book, pressed awkwardly against his chest, while the other scribbled as fast as he could dip a pen fatter than Perrin’s thumb. He was taking notes. Here!
Loial is so awesome. And the anonymous moment for the Asha'man, too; this is the first time Rand has used them publicly for anything.

Also, I love that this chapter is in Perrin's POV, with Faile there. Gives a double-meaning to the chapter title that I'm quite sure was intentional. Also, I wondered before if The Amyrlin's Anger was really fulfilled, and remembering this chapter, I wonder even more. This one doesn't really work as a red herring, though, since Bashere mentioned the Broken Crown to Perrin.

Terez
06-02-2012, 07:35 AM
"Faile, I missed you more than I can say, and worried about you, but -"

"Worried about me!" she snapped, spinning to face him. She stood straight and tall, eyes fierce as those of her falcon namesake, and her fan made a coring motion toward his middle. Not part of the language of fans; she made the same gesture with a knife sometimes.
Pure (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=204#21) Harriet (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=66#39). :) And speaking of Harriet, I like the basis for the chapter title:

"If any Aes Sedai ever harms you," she whispered, "I will kill her." He believed her. "You belong to me, Perrin t'Bashere Aybara. To me." He believed that, too. As her hug grew fiercer, so did the thorny scent of jealousy. He almost chuckled. It seemed the right to put a knife in him was reserved to her. He would have chuckled, except that filament of fear remained. That, and what she had said about Maire. He could not smell himself, but he knew what was there. Fear. Old fear, and new fear, for the next time.

Terez
06-02-2012, 07:44 AM
That thorny scent was gone completely, and in its place was another smell of her he knew well. A smell that was her, pure and strong and clean. Add that to her eyes, and any moment she was going to say something about farmgirls at harvest. They were notorious, apparently, Saldaean farmgirls.

"As for you lying down on my grave," she went on, "if you do, my soul will haunt yours, I promise you. You will mourn me a decent time, and then you'll find yourself another wife. Someone I’d approve of, I hope." With a soft laugh, she stroked his beard. "You really aren't fit to take care of yourself, you know. I want your promise."

Best not to crack his teeth on that. Say he would not, and this wonderful mood might be swallowed in a firestorm. Quicksilver was not in it, really. Say he would... By the smell of her, every word was the Light's pure truth, but he would believe that when horses roosted in trees. He cleared his throat. "I need to bathe. I haven't seen soap in I don’t know how long. I must smell like an old barn."

Leaning against his chest, she drew a deep breath. "You smell wonderful. Like you." Her hands moved on his shoulders. "I feel as -" The door banged open.
The bolded bits made me laugh. But I seem to remember this quote having been used before in arguments that Faile would die, since usually when a woman makes a man promise to find a new wife after she dies, she does die before the story is over. Or vice-versa. But someone asked me (forget where) if Perrin could claim the throne of Saldaea without her, and I don't think he could. He could probably keep it after they'd been crowned together, but I'm honestly not even sure about that, and it would certainly seem unlikely if she died just after crowning. I think that speaks against Faile dying. There would be no point in Perrin becoming king just to die shortly thereafter, either, so it seems to speak against him dying as well.

lol, and then at the end of the chapter:

"My husband," Faile breathed, "you have the courage of three men. And the sense of a child on leading strings. Why is it that as a man’s courage goes up, his sense goes down?"

Perrin grunted indignantly. He refrained from mentioning women who set themselves to spy on people who had committed murders and almost certainly knew they were spying. Women always talked about how logical they were compared to men, but for himself, he had seen precious little of it.

"Well, perhaps I don’t really want the answer even if you know it." Stretching with her arms over her head, she gave a throaty laugh. "Besides, I don’t mean to let him spoil the mood. I still feel as forward as a farmgirl at - Why are you laughing? Stop laughing at me, Perrin t'Bashere Aybara! Stop it, I say, you uncouth oaf! If you don’t -"

The only way to put an end to it was to kiss her. In her arms he forgot Rand and Aes Sedai and battles. Where Faile was, was home.

GonzoTheGreat
06-02-2012, 08:40 AM
The bolded bits made me laugh. But I seem to remember this quote having been used before in arguments that Faile would die, since usually when a woman makes a man promise to find a new wife after she dies, she does die before the story is over. Or vice-versa. But someone asked me (forget where) if Perrin could claim the throne of Saldaea without her, and I don't think he could. He could probably keep it after they'd been crowned together, but I'm honestly not even sure about that, and it would certainly seem unlikely if she died just after crowning. I think that speaks against Faile dying. There would be no point in Perrin becoming king just to die shortly thereafter, either, so it seems to speak against him dying as well.
Then again, Tenobia is not married, yet, is she?

Terez
06-02-2012, 09:21 AM
Somehow I don't see it.

GonzoTheGreat
06-02-2012, 09:33 AM
Faile could die, and, while dieing (or afterwards, if she really wants to), hook Perrin up with the current queen. Then he could still be king, without being married to Faile.

Terez
06-02-2012, 09:37 AM
"Why keep [the ferrets] from the Hall, Sheriam? Surely you don’t think any of them would betray your plan to Elaida." Half the sisters eyed the other half askance for fear of Elaida's sympathizers. Partly for fear of that.

"Mother, a sister who decided that what we do is a mistake would hardly let herself be chosen a Sitter. Any such would have taken herself away long since." Sheriam had not relaxed, but her voice took on the patient, instructing tone she seemed to think had the greatest effect on Egwene. Usually, though, she was more adroit at changing the subject. "Those suspicions are the worst problem we face for the time being. No one really trusts anyone. If we could only see how to -"

"The Black Ajah," Siuan cut in quietly. "That’s what chills your blood like a silverpike up your skirts. Who can say for sure who is Black, and who can say what a Black sister might do?"

Sheriam darted another hard look at Siuan, but after a moment the force went out of her. Or rather, one sort of tension replaced another. She glanced at Egwene, then nodded, reluctantly. By the sour twist to her mouth, she would have made another evasion had it not been plain Egwene would not stand for it. Most sisters in the camp believed now, but after more than three thousand years denying the Black Ajah's existence, it was a queasy belief. Almost no one would open her mouth on that topic, no matter what they believed.
If not that, then what? I can't see how it would benefit Sheriam to keep it from the Hall, otherwise, unless it was the other sisters' fears of the Black that led them to make that decision. Sheriam was the only Black out of the six of them.

Terez
06-02-2012, 09:43 AM
The Forsaken showed no signs of agelessness, for some reason. Maybe it was some effect of being connected to the Dark One.
I don't think Egwene would make it long at Theoryland. (Shut up Gonzo.) She had just spent months with the Wise Ones...

Zombie Sammael
06-02-2012, 12:16 PM
Then again, Tenobia is not married, yet, is she?

Somehow I don't see it.

For some reason, I had thought Tenobia was gay. I have no idea why now that I reflect upon it, other than the fact that she's notably unmarried. Has she ever shown any interest in anyone one way or the other?

Terez
06-02-2012, 12:55 PM
"The Amyrlin Seat being valued with the White Tower itself, as the very heart of the White Tower, she must not be endangered without dire necessity, therefore unless the White Tower be at war by declaration of the Hall of the Tower, the Amyrlin Seat shall seek the lesser consensus of the Hall of the Tower before deliberately placing herself in the way of any danger, and she shall abide by the consensus that stands." What rash incident by an Amyrlin had inspired that, Egwene did not know, but it had been law for something over two thousand years.
I'm guessing that was Rashima Kerenmosa (https://docs.google.com/View?docID=0ARw8aVNqPsL5ZGNqc3BqcWdfNDg0dm1mZHZuZ2 g&revision=_latest#Rashima_Kerenmosa).

fionwe1987
06-02-2012, 02:08 PM
I'm guessing that was Rashima Kerenmosa (https://docs.google.com/View?docID=0ARw8aVNqPsL5ZGNqc3BqcWdfNDg0dm1mZHZuZ2 g&revision=_latest#Rashima_Kerenmosa).
That doesn't add up, does it? Rashima did that during war time. They wouldn't respond to that with a law which does allow the Amyrlin to put her life under threat during war.

I always thought the law had to do with the Amyrlin who died and had her body captured by the Whitecloaks.

What interests me is this: Did Egwene ask the Hall's permission before putting her life in the way of danger by facing Mesaana?

Terez
06-02-2012, 02:14 PM
That doesn't add up, does it? Rashima did that during war time.
I considered that, but I have a feeling that the provision was inserted because of some debate on the subject.

I always thought the law had to do with the Amyrlin who died and had her body captured by the Whitecloaks.
I don't see why, since the timing is off by more than a thousand years.

Terez
06-02-2012, 05:15 PM
A few notes:

1. Daishar is a gelding; I was mistaken on that. But Kiruna had a stallion, at least. And Rand took it from her.

2. Faolain. She's a really confusing character, and I honestly don't get how she can say she's in Salidar because what Elaida did was wrong, and at the same time blame Siuan for it. How does that even make sense? For someone who would have chosen the Red (she was vocal about this herself when in the Tower; I'd forgotten that), to go to the Blue is downright strange. Some might say the Blue and the Red are rivals even more than the Green and the Red. And her whole speech to Egwene about wishing she had the Oath Rod (I think she said it four times)....gah. I don't get her. I really hope there's some explanation as to why she's that way, because otherwise she's just a badly-written red herring. It seems unlikely that Verin would have missed her; she had been in the Tower 13 years at the time of the split (8 as novice, 5 as Accepted). I don't believe she was really intended as a red herring, though; Faolain is one of the first people Min views in Salidar (she said you'd think someone like Faolain would have an unpleasant future). And we've yet to discover what this thing was she was working on. I hope it comes into play at the Black Tower battle.

3. Nicola. She's even worse than Faolain. Picks up weaves as if she already knew them. Blackmails people. Came on the boat with Moghedien. And now she's dead, and her secrets with her, if she ever had any. I wonder if we'll see Areina in AMOL. Maybe Moghedien just compelled them to make trouble in Salidar? Min viewed them, and said all three were 'trouble'. And all three 'touched Nynaeve's heart', which is just downright weird. But all three had stories that might have been designed to appeal to Nynaeve.

4. Myrelle. Why the hell didn't Egwene make Myrelle go with Lan to Ebou Dar? Was she really all that important to keep around? Oh well. She's also very annoying with Bryne; I feel sorry for her Warders. She must be really good in the sack, though; she probably uses the Power or something.

There was something else. Maybe I'll remember later.

fionwe1987
06-02-2012, 08:18 PM
A few notes:
2. Faolain. She's a really confusing character, and I honestly don't get how she can say she's in Salidar because what Elaida did was wrong, and at the same time blame Siuan for it.
But tons of other AS, including Maigan, have such a view. They think Siuan was too secretive, and too manipulative, and dislike her for it. But they also think Elaida went about removing her in a criminal manner. Its hardly a weird position, especially since they don't know Siuan had excellent reasons for keeping quiet and not seeking open support.
How does that even make sense? For someone who would have chosen the Red (she was vocal about this herself when in the Tower; I'd forgotten that), to go to the Blue is downright strange.
Not in this situation. She woke up one day and found the organization she idolized had done something she just couldn't accept. In such a case, people tend to look for exactly the opposite. They want to change their life, and the tendency is to do something exactly the opposite of before, to emphasize that change, and also to help yourself get used to it. Psychologically, it isn't all that surprising.
Some might say the Blue and the Red are rivals even more than the Green and the Red. And her whole speech to Egwene about wishing she had the Oath Rod (I think she said it four times)....gah. I don't get her. I really hope there's some explanation as to why she's that way, because otherwise she's just a badly-written red herring. It seems unlikely that Verin would have missed her; she had been in the Tower 13 years at the time of the split (8 as novice, 5 as Accepted). I don't believe she was really intended as a red herring, though; Faolain is one of the first people Min views in Salidar (she said you'd think someone like Faolain would have an unpleasant future). And we've yet to discover what this thing was she was working on. I hope it comes into play at the Black Tower battle.
I'm confused at your confusion with her... :D

As I see it, she is a rigid woman, harsh and with a tendency to be unyielding, who woke up one day to find her house of cards shattered. That hasn't completely changed her, but she is trying, with spotty success. And her heart's in the right place, as Egwene recognized.

What I'm more interested in learning was what exactly Lelaine did to make her reveal whatever little of Egwene's schemes she did reveal. Egwene may gain a hook on Lelaine from that, though how that can matter this late in the game I do not know.

Terez
06-02-2012, 08:22 PM
I can't recall if this was cleared up later:

Nynaeve gathered herself, ready to launch into an attack - Aviendha had had to listen to more than one tirade sparked by the Aes Sedai back in the Tarasin Palace and their habit of forgetting that she and Elayne were Aes Sedai too; someone not even Aes Sedai denying it might bring the shedding of blood - Nynaeve gathered herself up and opened her mouth... And Elayne silenced her with a touch on the arm and a whisper too low for Aviendha to hear. Nynaeve’s face was still crimson, and she looked about to pull her braid out slowly by the roots, yet she held her tongue. Maybe Elayne could make peace in a water-feud.
My guess for the moment is that Elayne threatened to dunk her head in a bucket of water.

Terez
06-02-2012, 08:30 PM
Last line of the chapter:

"Do you have a bucket?" she asked the Windfinder faintly.

Ieyasu
06-02-2012, 09:48 PM
Last line of the chapter:

I was laughing at Aviendha's sudden sickness too.

GonzoTheGreat
06-03-2012, 04:07 AM
I don't think Egwene would make it long at Theoryland. (Shut up Gonzo.) She had just spent months with the Wise Ones...
The channeling Wise Ones may have confused her because they do show signs of aging, as a result of their harsh lifestyle. Just a lot less than other women of the same age do. Plus, she may have been further confused by the fact that not all Wise Ones channel.

Then there's the fact that at the time, the only female Forsaken she'd seen was Lanfear, who is not exactly a typical woman. She had also seen some of the male ones, but there were other issues which muddled the waters there.

Still, it does seem a bit of an oversight on her part.

I don't believe she was really intended as a red herring, though; Faolain is one of the first people Min views in Salidar (she said you'd think someone like Faolain would have an unpleasant future).
Nah, she started out as a wannabe red herring, but now she's a blue one.

Terez
06-03-2012, 11:55 AM
I <3 Mat.

"One of them jumped me in the hall." Mat kicked the chest lightly; it made a hollow sound despite the dead man slumped inside with his arms and legs dangling out. "This is empty except for him. I think they meant to fill it with whatever they could steal." The gold, perhaps? Not likely they could have heard of that, won only hours ago, but he would ask Mistress Anan about a safer place to keep it.
Balanced on his toes, Mat listened, eyes searching the moonshadows. Only a cat moved, slinking along the street. The slap of running bare feet faded. The owner of one pair should be staggering, and the other bleeding. As he bent, his foot kicked a club as long as his arm on the paving stones; heavy brass studs shone in the moonlight. That would have broken his skull for sure. Shaking his head, he wiped his knife on the ragged coat worn by the man at his feet. Open eyes stared at the night sky from a dirty, creased face. A beggar, by the look and smell of him. Mat had not heard of beggars attacking people, but maybe times were harder than he thought. A large jute sack lay near one outstretched hand. The fellows certainly had been optimistic about what they would find in his pockets. The thing could have covered him from head to knees.

Terez
06-03-2012, 12:29 PM
And Aviendha:
Thom cleared his throat. "Tylin is a weak queen, and Carridin the ambassador of a power." Placing a stone, he kept his eyes on the board. He sounded as though he was thinking aloud. "By definition, a Whitecloak Inquisitor cannot be a Darkfriend; at least, that's how it is defined in the Fortress of the Light. If she arrests him, or even charges him, she’ll find a Whitecloak legion in Ebou Dar before she can blink. They might leave her the throne, but she’d be a puppet from then on, strings pulled from the Dome of Truth. Aren’t you ready to concede yet, Juilin?" The thief-catcher glared at him, then bent to a furious study of the board.

"I did not think her a coward," Aviendha said disgustedly, and Thom gave her an amused smile.

"You have never faced something you could not fight, child," he said gently, "something so strong your only choice is to flee or be consumed alive. Try to hold judgment on Tylin till you have." For some reason, Aviendha’s face reddened. Normally, she hid her emotions so well her face was like stone.
I don't know if I ever connected that precisely to The Far Snows before. I might have, but if so I had forgotten it.

Terez
06-03-2012, 12:40 PM
Another good pair of quotes:
"You have your own secrets." Folding her arms under her breasts, she sat on the foot of his bed. The way she looked at him, you would have thought he was a tavern puzzle. "For one, you’ve not told them you blew the Horn of Valere. The smallest of your secrets from them, I think."

Mat blinked. He had assumed they had told her. After all, she was Birgitte. "What secrets do I have? Those women know my toenails and dreams." She was Birgitte. Of course. He leaned forward. "Make them see reason. You’re Birgitte Silverbow. You can make them do as you say. This city has a pit-trap at every crossing, and I fear the stakes grow sharper by the day. Make them come away before it’s too late."

"If he expects us to come to him on hands and knees...!"

Birgitte took a sip of the tea with a grateful murmur, and oddly, when she looked at Nynaeve again, she did not seem so intoxicated. "I talked him out of that. I don’t think he was really serious. All he wants now is an apology and thanks."

Nynaeve’s eyes popped. She had talked him out of that? Apologize? To Matrim Cauthon? "Never," she growled.

"For what?" Elayne wanted to know, as if that mattered. She pretended not to see Nynaeve’s glare.

"The Stone of Tear," Birgitte said, and Nynaeve’s head whipped around. The woman no longer sounded intoxicated at all. "He says he went into the Stone, him and Juilin, to free the pair of you from a dungeon you couldn’t escape on your own." She shook her head slowly, in wonder. "I don’t know that I would have done that for anyone short of Gaidal. Not the Stone. He says you gave him a backhanded thanks and made him feel he ought to be grateful you didn’t kick him."

It was true, in a way, but all distorted. There Mat had been with that mocking grin of his, saying he was there to pull their chestnuts off the fire or some such. Even then he had thought he could tell them what to do. "Only one of the Black sisters was on guard in the dungeon," Nynaeve muttered, "and we had taken care of her." True, they hadn’t yet been able to figure out how to open the door, shielded. "Be'lal wasn’t really interested in us, anyway - it was just to lure Rand. Moiraine may already have killed him, by then, for all we know."

"The Black Ajah." Birgitte’s voice was flatter than the floor tiles. "And one of the Forsaken. Mat never mentioned them. You owe him thanks on your knees, Elayne. Both of you do. The man deserves it. And Juilin, as well."

Blood rushed to Nynaeve’s face. He had never mentioned...? That despicable, despicable man! "I will not apologize to Matrim Cauthon, not on my deathbed."

jana
06-03-2012, 01:08 PM
The fellows certainly had been optimistic about what they would find in his pockets. The thing could have covered him from head to knees.
lol. Never noticed this before

Davian93
06-03-2012, 06:49 PM
And Aviendha:

I don't know if I ever connected that precisely to The Far Snows before. I might have, but if so I had forgotten it.

T...I love that you note the exact same cool things that I do. Again and again you pick out some of my favorite passages in the books.

Terez
06-03-2012, 06:58 PM
I'm sure.

Terez
06-03-2012, 07:18 PM
"Come in, Thom!" Snatching his coat back all the way on, he started to stand, then realized that somehow the bloody woman had untied the waist of his breeches without him noticing. These two might miss that his shirt was undone to his belly, but they would not miss his breeches falling off. Tylin’s blue dress was not mussed at all! "Juilin, come in!"

"I am glad you find the rooms acceptable, Master Cauthon," Tylin said, dignity incarnate. Except for her eyes, anyway, when she stood so Thom and Juilin could not see them. Her eyes laced innocuous words with added meaning. "I look forward to having your company with pleasure; I shall find it interesting, having a ta'veren where I can reach out and touch him at will. But I must leave you to your friends, now. No, do not stand; please." That with just the hint of a mocking smile.

"Well, boy," Thom said, knuckling his mustaches when she was gone, "there’s luck for you, being welcomed with open arms by the Queen herself." Juilin became very interested in his cap.
This is funny, partly because Thom has had one queen already, and now has Moiraine who *might* yet take the Sun Throne. And Juilin has Amathera, who was a queen in essence if not in name. And Thom's first queen is meanwhile getting to know Juilin's queen in the presence of a woman condemned to worse than Thera's fate by Mat's queen, Precious Paendrag herself. But we were talking of Tylin, who was introduced to the story only to soften Mat up for his inevitable raven tattoos. A step up from OWNED BY MELINDHRA OF THE JUMAI SHAIDO.

Terez
06-03-2012, 10:05 PM
Everything had been chosen to impress the Mistress of the Ships, to try regaining a little lost ground, for all the good it might do. Green silk slashed with yellow in the skirts, embroidered in gold down the sleeves and across the bodice, with golden lace along the hem, and at her wrists, and just bordering the neckline. Perhaps that should have been higher, to be taken seriously, but she did not own anything higher. Considering Sea Folk customs, it was more than modest. Nesta would have to take her as she was; Nynaeve al’Meara did not go changing herself for anyone.
Funny how quickly she forgot why she started wearing low necklines in the first place...

Terez
06-04-2012, 09:16 AM
I had forgotten Seaine was from Lugard. I was wondering yesterday what nationality Lelaine is; I don't think we know. Also, Elaida told Seaine that she knew Alviarin had communicated with Rand, but not about what. I've always wondered how she learned about that.
"Leane, that man could strike sparks from a damp cloth, if it wore the shawl. I don’t know Merana, but I've never seen an Aes Sedai who qualified as a damp cloth."
"I’ve met one or two," Leane chuckled. This time her sigh was plain. "But not Merana, true. Does he really believe he has friends inside the Tower? Alviarin? That might make him difficult for Merana, I suppose, but I can hardly see Alviarin doing anything to risk her place. She was always ambitious enough for three."

"He has a letter supposedly from her." She could still see Rand gloating over receiving letters from Elaida and Alviarin both, back before she herself left Cairhien. "Maybe her ambitions make her think she can replace Elaida with him on her side. That’s if she really wrote it. He thinks he's clever, Leane - maybe he is - but he doesn't believe he needs anyone." Rand would go on thinking he could handle anything by himself right up until one of those anythings crushed him. "I know him inside and out, Leane. Being around the Wise Ones seems to have infected him, or maybe he infected them. Whatever the Sitters think, whatever any of you think, an Aes Sedai's shawl doesn’t impress him any more than it does the Wise Ones. Sooner or later he'll exasperate a sister until she does something about it, or one of them will push him the wrong way, not realizing how strong he is, and what his temper is now. After that there might be no going back. I’m the only one who can deal with him safely. The only one."

"He can hardly be as... irritating... as those Aiel women," Leane murmured wryly. Even she found it difficult to be amused by her experiences with the Wise Ones. "But it hardly matters. 'The Amyrlin Seat being valued with the White Tower itself... '"

A pair of women appeared between the tents ahead, moving slowly, as they talked. Distance and shadows obscured their faces, yet it was clear they were Aes Sedai from the way they carried themselves, an assurance that nothing hiding in any darkness could harm them. No Accepted on the brink of the shawl could manage quite that degree of confidence. A queen with an army at her back might not. They were coming toward her and Leane. Leane quickly turned in to the deeper dimness between two wagons.
Eavesdropping? Easy enough to find out that Alviarin was countermanding her orders, but this is another story. And truly, the evidence that Alviarin had countermanded her orders might have come from Tel'aran'rhiod, which again points to Salidar.

Terez
06-04-2012, 01:24 PM
ACOS is really tight all around, in a way that I don't think any of the other books have been so far. This, for example:
"I would appreciate it very much if you did not mention Myrelle's name again in my presence. Do you understand?"

He nodded, and she released the flow, but as soon as he had worked his jaw a moment, he said, "Naming no names, Nynaeve, you know she’s aware of everything I feel, through the bond. If we were man and wife... "

She thought her face might burst into flame. She had never thought of that! Bloody Myrelle! "Is there any way to make sure she knows it is me?" she said finally, and her cheeks nearly did flash to fire. Especially when he fell back against the cabin wall laughing in astonishment.

"Light, Nynaeve, you are a hawk! Light! I haven’t laughed since... " His mirth faded, the coldness that had dimmed in his eyes for an instant returning. "I do wish it could be, Nynaeve, but -"

"It can and will," she broke in.
Alanna gave him one searching look with those big dark penetrating eyes; the tiny knot of emotions in his skull said she was calmer, more relaxed, than he ever remembered. Then she made a small motion, and Min touched his arm and went aside with her....

....Whatever Alanna was saying to Min, scarlet spots had flared in Min’s cheeks and she had raised her chin, though oddly, she seemed to be replying calmly enough. He wondered whether she would tell him. One thing he was sure of about women was that every last one had secret places in her heart, sometimes shared with another woman but never with a man. The only thing he was sure of about women....

...."Did you have an interesting conversation with Alanna?"

"Nothing that would interest you," she said offhandedly. But a faint touch of red stained her cheeks.
The whole book is laced with good prefacing like this.

Terez
06-04-2012, 01:59 PM
Two bits I noticed about the Jendai Prophecies in ACOS; I knew them vaguely, but put together they spell out a lot:
"A split sail is split, Nesta," the old man said suddenly, in a deep voice much stronger than his bony limbs suggested. Aviendha had taken him for a guard, but his tone was that of an equal. "It might be well to ask what aid Aes Sedai would have of us, in days when the Coramoor has come, and the seas rage in endless storms, and the doom of the Prophecy sails the oceans. If they are Aes Sedai?" That with a raised eyebrow to the Windfinder.
"The Jendai Prophecy says you will bring us to glory, and all the seas of the world will be ours. As we give to you, you must give to us. If I do not make the Bargain well, Nesta will hang me naked in the rigging by my ankles and call the First Twelve of Clan Shodein to name a new Wavemistress." A look of utter horror stole across her face as those words came out of her mouth, and her black eyes went wider and wider by the word with disbelief. Her Windfinder goggled at her, and Derah and Taval tried so hard not to, their eyes fastened to the table, that it seemed their faces might break.
How are all of the seas of the world supposed to be theirs, unless they join with the Empire, and the Empire conquers the whole world? Also, 'doom' and 'glory' don't seem to fit well together.

GonzoTheGreat
06-04-2012, 02:45 PM
Maybe after the next Breaking of the World, the total sea area will be smaller than Tar Valon now is?

Edited to add: could be another case of "a remnant of a remnant shall he save".

Terez
06-04-2012, 04:23 PM
I think there is foreshadowing for Harine's Bargain—the one she ends up honored for—being with Tuon and Mat. I'm pretty sure Mat has to be there; this is foreshadowed when he tells off Renaile and Co. in Ebou Dar just before the building falls on his head. I haven't gotten there yet, but it's one of my favorite bits in the whole series, despite a bit of cheesiness, so I could hardly forget it:
"You can all channel, I understand," he said quietly, "but that doesn’t mean much to me." As well be straight from the start. "You can ask Adeleas or Vandene how much I care whether a woman can channel."

Renaile looked past him toward Tylin, but it was not to the Queen she spoke. "Nynaeve Sedai," she said dryly, "I believe there was no mention in your bargain of my having to listen to this young oakum picker. I -"

"I don’t bloody care about your bargains with anybody else, you daughter of the sands," Mat snapped. So his irritation was not that well under control. A man could only take so much.

Gasps rose among the women behind her. Something over a thousand years ago a Sea Folk woman had called an Essenian soldier a son of the sands just before trying to plant a blade in his ribs; the memory lay tucked inside Mat Cauthon’s head, now. It was not the worst insult among the Atha’an Miere, but it came close. Renaile’s face gorged with blood; hissing, eyes bulging in fury, she leaped to her feet, that moonstone-studded dagger flashing in her fist.

Mat snatched it out of her hand before the blade could reach his chest and shoved her back into her chair. He did have quick hands. He could still hold on to his temper, too. No matter how many women thought they could dance him for a puppet, he could -"You listen to me, you bilge stone." All right; maybe he could not hold it. "Nynaeve and Elayne need you, or I’d leave you for the gholam to crack your bones and the Black Ajah to pick over what’s left. Well, as far as you’re concerned, I’m the Master of the Blades, and my blades are bare." What that meant exactly, he had no idea, except for having once heard, "When the blades are bare, even the Mistress of the Ships bows to the Master of the Blades." "This is the bargain between you and me. You go where Nynaeve and Elayne want, and in return, I won’t tie the lot of you across horses like packsaddles and haul you there!"

That was no way to go on, not with the Windfinder to the Mistress of the Ships. Not with a bilgeboy off a broken-backed darter, for that matter. Renaile quivered with the effort of not going for him with her bare hands, and never mind her dagger in his hand. "It is agreed, under the Light!" she growled. Her eyes nearly started out of her head. Her mouth worked, confusion and disbelief suddenly chasing one another across her face. This time, the gasps sounded as if the wind had ripped the curtains down.

"It is agreed," Mat said quickly, and touching fingers to his lips, he pressed them to hers.

After a moment, she did the same, fingers trembling against his mouth. He held out the dagger, and she stared dully at it before taking it from him. The blade went back into its jeweled sheath. It was not polite to kill someone you had sealed a bargain with. At least, not until the terms were fulfilled. Murmurs began among the women behind her chair, rising, and Renaile stirred herself to clap her hands once. That silenced Windfinders to Wavemistresses as quickly as the two deckhands in training.

"I think I have just made a bargain with a ta’veren," she said in that cool, deep voice. The woman could teach Aes Sedai how to pull themselves together quickly. "But one day, Master Cauthon, if it pleases the Light, I think you will walk a rope for me."

He did not know what that meant, except that she made it sound unpleasant. He made his best leg. "All things are possible, if it pleases the Light," he murmured. Courtesy paid, after all. But her smile was disturbingly hopeful.
Tuon doesn't seem to mind nations keeping their hierarchy intact underneath her rule, so I don't see why she would change that for the Sea Folk. Harine can be Mistress of the Ships, answering directly to the Empress, like any other ruler.

But despite all that, I doubt anything will be properly decided until Rand gets there, wherever 'there' is. Maybe Merrilor, since it looks to be a good staging ground.

Terez
06-04-2012, 04:56 PM
Tai'daishar (Kiruna's horse) was also a gelding. Now I'm disappointed.

Also, I think Rafela's comments that she heard 'reports' on Min 'several years ago' is a hint that Moiraine heard about Min through the Blue Ajah network and went looking for her because she was desperate to know something of the future and because the location happened to fit with a few clues she had. She had probably avoided going there because she had nothing solid and because it's rather out of the way, far away from anything important.

"What makes you think Mistress Alys has another name?"

"Because she told me," Min said, so patiently that he blushed again. "Not that she had a choice, I suppose. I saw she was ... different ... right away. When she stopped here before, on her way downcountry. She knew about me. I've talked to ... others like her before."

Terez
06-05-2012, 07:30 AM
"I’ve heard of the White Lions," Rand said coldly. "Look among them for Darkfriends, and you won’t be disappointed." They had been some of Gaebril's soldiers; Min knew that much, and little more, except that Lord Gaebril had really been Rahvin. It stood to reason that soldiers serving one of the Forsaken would include Darkfriends.
And yet Rand didn't seem to feel the same about Lord Brend's soldiers, when the Legion of the Dragon took them in, and their leader tried to kill him.

You might call that another pairing of clues, since Rand defeats Sammael right after this, and the bit with the Legion is in the beginning of Rand's arc in TPOD.

GonzoTheGreat
06-05-2012, 07:43 AM
And yet Rand didn't seem to feel the same about Lord Brend's soldiers, when the Legion of the Dragon took them in, and their leader tried to kill him.
A difference could be that the White Lions were Rahvin's personal force, whereas what you call Lord Brend's soldiers were just regular Illianer conscripts. Led, of course, by officers hand picked by Brend, but we'll ignore that detail for now.

Terez
06-05-2012, 07:52 AM
I should have also mentioned the pairing of Moiraine clues; I think I didn't because everyone knows about them, but it fits into the theme. Just before they leave for the rebels' camp, Min thinks that Rand will almost surely fail without a woman dead and gone, and she's sure for a moment that Caraline is Moiraine when they first see her, because she has reason to think that Moiraine will eventually reappear. And then she thinks of Moiraine being the only viewing of hers that ever failed. I think RJ wanted to make sure that even the casual readers did not miss that; those clues are planted so close together that they are hard to miss. I'm not so sure he was successful, though.

Also, I wondered, perhaps for the first time, perhaps not, if Fain told Toram to distract Rand.

Now, it seems Rand really went mad after Dumai's Wells. He appeared to be handling it somewhat okay (aside from his issues with Perrin) until Fel and Colavaere died, and Lews Therin went away, and he convinced himself he raped Min. He locked himself up in his room, raging and sulking, until Min saved him. Then he went to see the Sea Folk, saw his ta'verenness in action, and it's all in Min's POV, but he's totally insane through the whole thing. I think I had forgotten just how much.

So, Rand sees Fain with Toram Riatin, gives a little speech about everything Fain did that Rand is going to kill him for, and says he's 'a Darkfriend, and a dead man'. And then he lets Toram distract him with a swordfight, all the while thinking he's going to touch Toram with his ta'verenness, never thinking to make the Barthanes comparison.

Terez
06-05-2012, 08:30 AM
I had forgotten about this:

To Flinn's evident surprise, Samitsu rounded the bed to help him rise. "You will tell me what you did," she said, regal tone at strong odds with the way her quick fingers straightened the old man’s collar and smoothed his lapels. "If only there was some way you could show me! But you will describe it. You must! I will give you all the gold I possess, bear your child, whatever you wish, but you will tell me all that you can." Apparently not sure herself whether she was commanding or begging, she led a very bemused Flinn over by the windows. He opened his mouth more than once, but she was too busy trying to make him talk to see it.
That's funny. And he ended up with Corele, presumably because Samitsu already had a Warder and Yellows can only have one.

Terez
06-05-2012, 09:48 AM
Back to Mat and the Sea Folk, reading it in context was fun. I'd forgotten that Elayne and Nynaeve got him to deal with the Sea Folk because they wanted him to ta'veren them. They were just staring at him, waiting to see what he would do.
"I am very sorry to have used you," Elayne said before he could get a word out. Her smile flashed that dimple at him. "We did have reasons, Mat; you must believe that."

"Which you do not need to know," Nynaeve put in firmly, flipping her braid back over her shoulder with a practiced toss of her head that made the gold ring bounce on her bosom. Lan must be insane. "I must say, I never expected you to do what you did. Whatever in the world made you think of trying to bully them? You could have ruined everything."

"What’s life if you don’t take a chance now and then?" he said blithely. As well by him if they thought it was planned instead of temper. But they had used him again without telling him, and he wanted a bit back for that. "Next time you have to make a bargain with the Sea Folk, let me make it for you. Maybe that way, it won’t turn out as badly as the last one." Spots of color blooming in Nynaeve’s cheeks told him he had hit the mark squarely. Not bad shooting blindfolded.
And this is of course just after Rand's bargain with them, which went well until Rand got claustrophobic.

Terez
06-06-2012, 12:56 PM
Perhaps the first clue:
The disapproving stares from Merilille and the other sisters changed once Ispan Shefar’s face was revealed. Sareitha Tomares, who had worn her brown-fringed shawl only a few years and still did not have the ageless appearance, glared with a disgust that should have flayed the Shadowrunner at fifty paces. Adeleas and Vandene, hands tightening on their skirts, appeared to struggle with hatred for the woman who had been their sister and betrayed them. Yet the stares they gave the Knitting Circle were not that much better.
Of all the Aes Sedai present, only Careane was not mentioned.

Terez
06-06-2012, 04:59 PM
I don't get wetlander humor.
Had she made some mistake down below while Healing them? Merilille had negotiated treaties and mediated disputes between nations; few in the White Tower were better than she. But Elayne remembered hearing a story once, a joke of sorts, about a Domani merchant, a Sea Folk Cargomaster and an Aes Sedai. Not many people told jokes involving Aes Sedai; telling one might not be entirely safe. The merchant and the Cargomaster found an ordinary rock on the shore and proceeded to sell it back and forth between them, somehow making a profit each time. Then an Aes Sedai came along. The Domani convinced the Aes Sedai to buy the simple stone for twice what she herself had last paid. After which the Atha’an Miere convinced the Aes Sedai to buy the same rock from him for twice that again. Only a joke, but it showed what people believed. Maybe the older sisters would not have done any better bargaining with the Sea Folk.

Terez
06-06-2012, 06:16 PM
Elayne had chosen that destination because they could reach Caemlyn in two weeks from there. And because the estate was so isolated, she might be entering Caemlyn before anyone knew she was in Andor. That could be a very necessary precaution; at various times in Andor’s history, rivals for the Rose Crown had been kept as "guests" until they relinquished their claims. Her mother had kept two, until she took the throne. With luck, she could have a solid base established by the time Egwene and the others arrived.
Elenia and Naean?

Terez
06-06-2012, 09:36 PM
There is always some debate as to whether Sammael was telling the truth about the binder only working on women, but I think this is a hint that he was lying:
She checked what she had tucked into her skirt at the small of her back, where her shawl hid it. She would have felt if it slipped a hair, but she wanted to touch its smooth length with her fingers. No Wise One would dare think her less than they, once she used that, perhaps today. And one day, it would give her Rand al’Thor. After all, if Caddar had lied in one thing, maybe he had lied in others.
Not that Sevanna necessarily has a clue what she's talking about, but it was a way for RJ to at least plant the suggestion that Sammael wasn't telling the truth, in case we assumed that he had.

Terez
06-06-2012, 11:01 PM
TPOD 12 is a good example of Graendal being not very smart. It didn't even occur to her that Lanfear was Cyndane, even knowing what the name means, and before she was close enough to sense Cyndane's strength. Since she was the second person to swear to the Dark One after Ishamael, surely she knows about transmigration? Osan'gar did not appear to be particularly surprised when it happened to him, and Aran'gar was just pissed because he was a girl. And then it didn't occur to her that Moridin might possibly be Ishamael, even after learning he had been named Nae'blis. Moghedien did the same, but she's not supposed to be very smart.

Terez
06-06-2012, 11:22 PM
An interesting thing about New Alliances is that it's half Graendal and half Cadsuane. A Forsaken and a Lightsider, both of them opening their POVs with something masterful. In Graendal's case, it was the care she took with the orders to Ituralde (from Alsalam) and the ease with which she overcame Moghedien and Cyndane, not that Moghedien was doing anything other than summoning Shaidar Haran. But underneath that, she's underestimating both Cyndane and Moridin.

With Cadsuane, her masterful actions included setting Daigian and Kumira on Rand's pet Aes Sedai apprentices, but she made a major miscalculation with Sorilea, I think. Verin also miscalculated, but as she said, it was a minor miscalculation at worst.

fionwe1987
06-06-2012, 11:34 PM
TPOD 12 is a good example of Graendal being not very smart. It didn't even occur to her that Lanfear was Cyndane, even knowing what the name means, and before she was close enough to sense Cyndane's strength.
Read again:

Graendal kept her own face smooth, with a little effort. She had supposed this girl some Friend of the Dark whom Moghedien had picked up to run errands, perhaps a noble who thought her title counted, but now that she was close. . . . The girl was stronger in the One Power than she herself! Even in her own Age, that had been uncommon among men, and very rare indeed among women.
Till Graendal felt her ability, she assumed she was a Darkfriend who couldn't channel. When she did feel her ability, she obviously knew right away she was weaker than Lanfear had been.
Since she was the second person to swear to the Dark One after Ishamael, surely she knows about transmigration? Osan'gar did not appear to be particularly surprised when it happened to him, and Aran'gar was just pissed because he was a girl. And then it didn't occur to her that Moridin might possibly be Ishamael, even after learning he had been named Nae'blis. Moghedien did the same, but she's not supposed to be very smart.
Why would she assume that if Ishamael had been brought back after his death (read failure), he would immediately be Nae'blis? Remember that all the Foresaken think Nae'blis is about being the DO's most successful Chosen. None of them knows Ishy was Nae'blis for an entirely different reason.

jana
06-07-2012, 12:16 AM
random:

"She even managed to stalk down the ladder."

It's fun trying to picture that... I'm surprised Nynaeve didn't fall into the river.

Terez
06-07-2012, 12:18 AM
That's because you don't know how to stalk.

jana
06-07-2012, 12:25 AM
That's because you don't know how to stalk.
I'm an amateur stalker. Er... not that kind of stalker. The other kind.

GonzoTheGreat
06-07-2012, 02:34 AM
TPOD 12 is a good example of Graendal being not very smart. It didn't even occur to her that Lanfear was Cyndane, even knowing what the name means, and before she was close enough to sense Cyndane's strength. Since she was the second person to swear to the Dark One after Ishamael, surely she knows about transmigration? Osan'gar did not appear to be particularly surprised when it happened to him, and Aran'gar was just pissed because he was a girl. And then it didn't occur to her that Moridin might possibly be Ishamael, even after learning he had been named Nae'blis. Moghedien did the same, but she's not supposed to be very smart.
Graendal's speciality seems to be outguessing others. Her problem here is that her skills are not sufficient to let her outguess the DO, so naturally she then fails to draw conclusions that (to us) are obvious.

Zombie Sammael
06-07-2012, 06:45 AM
There is always some debate as to whether Sammael was telling the truth about the binder only working on women, but I think this is a hint that he was lying:

Not that Sevanna necessarily has a clue what she's talking about, but it was a way for RJ to at least plant the suggestion that Sammael wasn't telling the truth, in case we assumed that he had.

I'd always read that as emphasising how arrogant/stupid Sevanna is rather than emphasising Sammael as a liar.

Terez
06-07-2012, 07:52 AM
I'd always read that as emphasising how arrogant/stupid Sevanna is rather than emphasising Sammael as a liar. The invention of the chair seems like a rather elaborate fiction to come up with to me.
?? The chair was for non-channelers, not men.

Zombie Sammael
06-07-2012, 08:38 AM
?? The chair was for non-channelers, not men.

Ah, I misremembered it, sorry. In any case, the first part of the post is still wot I fink. :)

Terez
06-07-2012, 08:59 AM
Sevanna might be arrogant and stupid, but she was right that Caddar lied to her about some things, and right that he probably lied about others.

Zombie Sammael
06-07-2012, 09:16 AM
Sevanna might be arrogant and stupid, but she was right that Caddar lied to her about some things, and right that he probably lied about others.

No doubt about that, but do we even know if the OR in the Tower works on men?

GonzoTheGreat
06-07-2012, 09:44 AM
Now I'm wondering: whatever it is that Sammael had which could control a man, was that destroyed with Natrin's Barrow?

Terez
06-07-2012, 09:55 AM
I always assumed he was referring to the sad bracelets, even though they were confiscated by the Seanchan and obviously ended up with Semirhage. But that's assuming he had anything at all. It doesn't make much sense.

Terez
06-07-2012, 11:07 AM
Also, for the record (again), "Last Chance" was a clue that Cyndane was Lanfear, and Graendal didn't consider it before she had any reason to believe that it was not Lanfear. Only when she came close did she have reason not to believe it, and even then it could have been inverted weaves to make her strength appear to be less than it was (Mesaana pulled that off with Danelle).

fionwe1987
06-07-2012, 11:42 AM
Also, for the record (again), "Last Chance" was a clue that Cyndane was Lanfear, and Graendal didn't consider it before she had any reason to believe that it was not Lanfear. Only when she came close did she have reason not to believe it, and even then it could have been inverted weaves to make her strength appear to be less than it was (Mesaana pulled that off with Danelle).
The point is, till she came close to her, she had no reason to believe she could channel at all. Now, you can argue that was a stupid assumption to make, I suppose. But I don't see it.

You're right on the inverted weave thing, though. Even Mesaana and Semirhage don't see it, apparently, which makes me think this is a plot hole. It doesn't quite fit with Graendal's character to ignore something so glaringly obvious. Doesn't fit the others either.

She was a puzzle to Demandred. At first he had thought she was Lanfear reincarnated. Bodies for
transmigration supposedly were chosen by what was available, yet Osan'gar and Aran'gar were proof of the
Great Lord's cruel sense of humor. He had been sure, until Mesaana told him the girl was weaker than
Lanfear. Mesaana and the rest thought she was of this Age. Yet she spoke of al'Thor as Lews Therin, just as
Lanfear had, and spoke of the Choedan Kal as one familiar with the terror they had inspired during the War of
Power

Either the Foresaken have collectively forgotten about the weave (including Mesaana, who used it), or they know a way around it. Or, maybe they think Lanfear would never reduce her strength, and so can't believe this is her.

GonzoTheGreat
06-07-2012, 12:03 PM
I always assumed he was referring to the sad bracelets, even though they were confiscated by the Seanchan and obviously ended up with Semirhage. But that's assuming he had anything at all. It doesn't make much sense.
Come to think of it, Sammael may simply have had a baker's dozen of Myrddraal stashed away in a closet somewhere. That would indeed have done for the Dragon Reborn.

Terez
06-07-2012, 10:55 PM
It turns out that the Black Tower is the chicken that is not a chicken:
When Bryne rode out to confer with Uno, she took the opportunity to ask what the two women had learned about Aes Sedai and Tower Guards in Andor.

"Not much," Siuan replied in a tight voice. Shaggy Bela did not seem to be having any difficulty with the pace, but Siuan did, gripping her reins tightly in one hand and the pommel of her saddle with the other. "As near as I can make out, there are fifty rumors and no facts. It’s a likely sort of tale to spring up, but it might still be true." Bela lurched, her front hooves sinking deep, and Siuan gasped. "The Light burn all horses!"

Sheriam had learned no more. She shook her head, and sighed irritably. "It sounds all feathers and nonsense to me, Mother. There are always rumors of sisters sneaking about. Didn’t you ever learn to ride, Siuan?’ she added, her voice suddenly dripping derision. "By tonight, you’ll be too sore to walk!" Sheriam’s nerves must have been ragged for her to burst out so openly. From the way she kept shifting in her saddle, she had already achieved her prediction for Siuan.

Siuan’s eyes hardened, and she opened her mouth already half snarling, never mind who was watching from behind the banner.

"Be still, both of you!" Egwene snapped. She took a deep, calming breath. She was a bit ragged herself. Whatever Arathelle believed, any force Elaida sent to interfere with them would be too large for sneaking. That left the Black Tower, a disaster in the making. You got further plucking the chicken in front of you than trying to start on one up a tree. Especially when the tree was in another country and there might not even be another chicken.
TPOD came out in 1998; Tairy stole the idea and put it in his book which came out in 1999.

Terez
06-07-2012, 11:54 PM
Perhaps someone can help me out here. Elayne seems to think that Adeleas and Vandene are actually hurting Ispan when they question her. She thought that the ward against eavesdropping was to hide screams, and felt guilty about the questioning happening on Andoran soil. If they can't break bones or draw blood, or use the Power at all in questioning, then how are they hurting her? By pulling her hair?

Ieyasu
06-08-2012, 12:04 AM
Perhaps someone can help me out here. Elayne seems to think that Adeleas and Vandene are actually hurting Ispan when they question her. She thought that the ward against eavesdropping was to hide screams, and felt guilty about the questioning happening on Andoran soil. If they can't break bones or draw blood, or use the Power at all in questioning, then how are they hurting her? By pulling her hair?

They are only limited if the person being put to the question is an initiate of the tower. The first time the sisters took over questioning Ispan (at the Kin farm, long before they reached Andor)per Elaynes POV, she herself was not sure if a Black sister could still be counted as a tower initiate. It does not take much mental bending to be able to put her to the question if she isnt considered an initiate based on her associations with the shadow. Elayne also made mention of Whitecloak questioners being able to torture without breaking the skin etc. This all occurred the very first time the sisters took over Ispan's questions from Avi and Elayne.

Furthermore, there is no oath the AS take that REQUIRES them to follow tower tradition or law. That being said, Elayne herself was willing to order the torture and report herself for penance afterwards. The sisters could have been willing to do the same thing.

EDIT:
Elayne herself explains this all when she allowed them to take over the questions from her and avi... furthermore she expanded that the power isnt allowed to be used on ANY initiate for any reason (not just putting to the question) then thought internally about how its not entirely enforced as AS use the power to hit and flick novices and the like as well.

Terez
06-08-2012, 12:22 AM
They are only limited if the person being put to the question is an initiate of the tower. The first time the sisters took over questioning Ispan (at the Kin farm, long before they reached Andor)per Elaynes POV, she herself was not sure if a Black sister could still be counted as a tower initiate.
Yeah, I remembered that, but it didn't seem to me like they had decided she was not.
"You will answer any questions my near-sister asks." Aviendha tested her belt knife on a thumbnail, but her eyes were on Ispan’s. "Wetlanders fear pain. They do not know how to embrace it, accept it. You will answer as you are asked." She did not glare or snarl, she just spoke, but Ispan shrank back in the chair.

"I fear that is proscribed, even were she not an initiate of the Tower," Adeleas said. "We are forbidden to shed blood in questioning, or to allow others to do so in our name." She sounded reluctant, though whether over the prohibition or over admitting that Ispan was an initiate, Elayne could not say. She herself had not really considered that Ispan might still be considered one.
Adeleas says that she is, and Elayne seems to recognize that she said it. She doesn't appear to agree, but she's not the one doing the questioning.

Elayne also made mention of Whitecloak questioners being able to torture without breaking the skin etc. This all occurred the very first time the sisters took over Ispan's questions from Avi and Elayne.
Unless you are thinking of something else, this is what she actually thought:
That law forbade not only shedding blood, but breaking bones and a number of other things that any Whitecloak Questioner would be more than ready to do. Before any session began, Healing had to be given, and if the questioning started after sunrise, it had to end before sundown; if after sunset, then before sunrise. The law was even more restrictive when it came to initiates of the Tower, the sisters and Accepted and novices, banning the use of saidar in questioning, punishment, or penance.

Furthermore, there is no oath the AS take that REQUIRES them to follow tower tradition or law. That being said, Elayne herself was willing to order the torture and report herself for penance afterwards. The sisters could have been willing to do the same thing.
Perhaps. I wish it were a little more explicit, though.

Ieyasu
06-08-2012, 12:28 AM
Unless you are thinking of something else, this is what she actually thought:



Perhaps. I wish it were a little more explicit, though.

That is what I was thinking, I just misread it to read exactly opposite of what it says lol. My mistake.

I think it is the penance thing personally, as she not only thought about it, but mentioned there were enough AS there to do so (requires 5)

Was it ever cleared up if one of them was BA or not? I should reread the part where Moiraine was attacked by the cloaked Dragkar...

Terez
06-08-2012, 12:55 AM
Yeah, Careane was Black. And the general consensus is that Liandrin warded the Draghkar. She and Verin rode off at the same time, and Verin went after the boys.

GonzoTheGreat
06-08-2012, 03:33 AM
How about total sensory deprivation?
That's usually rather unpleasant, but it does not break any bones nor does it draw blood. I don't think it would be at all easy for a Whitecloak Questioner to manage, but, using the OP, blocking someone else's senses off totally would not be impossible, I think.

Zombie Sammael
06-08-2012, 04:17 AM
How about total sensory deprivation?
That's usually rather unpleasant, but it does not break any bones nor does it draw blood. I don't think it would be at all easy for a Whitecloak Questioner to manage, but, using the OP, blocking someone else's senses off totally would not be impossible, I think.

Not to mention waterboarding.

GonzoTheGreat
06-08-2012, 04:27 AM
Not to mention waterboarding.
Questioners could do that, though. Of course, it's possible that their morals are higher than those of US Marines, in which case they might decide that waterboarding was too evil to do even to someone suspected of being a DF.

Terez
06-08-2012, 10:00 AM
They're not allowed to use the Power in questioning.

Ieyasu
06-08-2012, 10:32 AM
They're not allowed to use the Power in questioning.

This doesnt jive with the BA hunters in the tower using the chair, however. Or does it not count if you use the Power to power a device that tortures...??

Davian93
06-08-2012, 10:36 AM
This doesnt jive with the BA hunters in the tower using the chair, however. Or does it not count if you use the Power to power a device that tortures...??

Not allowed doesnt mean they dont do it...it just means its against the rules.

Terez
06-08-2012, 10:56 AM
Well, the Hunters in the Tower might have wriggled around the 'initiate' thing, but Adeleas clearly didn't.

sleepinghour
06-08-2012, 11:49 AM
Ispan paced, swishing her skirts and frowning at the dust and old cobwebs. "This place smells. And it is filthy!" She shuddered as a large black cockroach went skittering up the wall. The glow surrounded her for a moment; a flow squashed the beetle with a popping sound. Making a face, Ispan wiped her hands on her skirts as if she had used them instead of the Power. She had a delicate stomach, though fortunately not when she could remove herself from the actual deed.

Ispan was noted for being exceptionally weak and squeamish, so they probably didn't need to do much to her. Tie her up in an uncomfortable position, interrogate her for hours without food or water, let Jaem rough her up, threaten her with figs and mice... You don't need to break bones or draw blood to torture someone (in fact, one of the worst torture methods I ever heard of involved ants and honey).

Amico had spoken freely of them, and so had Joiya, after a session alone in her cell with Moiraine that had left the Darkfriend pale-faced and almost civil.

It also seems likely that Moiraine used the secret Blue Ajah weave that induces fear on Joiya in TSR.

Terez
06-08-2012, 11:53 AM
Ispan was noted for being exceptionally weak and squeamish, so they probably didn't need to do much to her.
Probably true, but Elayne didn't know that, did she?

Terez
06-09-2012, 06:35 PM
Edarra was sharply berating Masuri for letting her hood slip. Edarra and Carelle both wore their shawls wrapped around their heads and shoulders in addition to cloaks, but even after admitting the necessity to ride, they had refused to change out of their bulky skirts, so their dark-stockinged legs were bared above the knee. The cold did not seem to bother them in the least; just the strangeness of snow. Carelle began quietly advising Seonid as to what would happen if she did not keep her face hidden.
Perhaps an early clue that Masuri is Black Ajah. Careane did the same thing at the Kin's farm.

newyorkersedai
06-10-2012, 10:34 PM
Thank you for all this. I haven't read anyone else's re-read thoughts, or one of yours before this one.

You remind me of why I loved and clove to this series so firmly, for so long.

Terez
06-10-2012, 10:41 PM
Happy to be of service. :)

Terez
06-11-2012, 03:35 AM
I don't know if I've ever noticed this before:

"All those who follow the Lord Dragon Reborn—the Light illumine his name!—will come. Killing Aiel savages is doing the Light's work." His eyes flickered toward the Wise Ones, and his smile was even colder than before.

"I would appreciate the help," Perrin lied. That rabble would be useless against Aiel. Still, they numbered in the thousands. And they had held off armies, if not armies of Aiel. A piece of that puzzle in his head shifted. Ready to drop with fatigue, he could not make out exactly how, just that it had. In any case, it was not going to happen. "They have a long lead on me, though. I intend to Travel, to use the One Power, to catch up. I know how you feel about that."
As in, a way to get rid of Masema's rabble.

GonzoTheGreat
06-11-2012, 03:43 AM
As in, a way to get rid of Masema's rabble.
"Have to clear rabble before you can build."

Zombie Sammael
06-11-2012, 04:04 AM
"Have to clear rabble before you can build."

Are you suggesting Herid Fel was a cockney?

Terez
06-11-2012, 02:49 PM
Some of the best writing in the book so far, if not the best:
The two novices smiled broad, eager smiles of anticipation—they all but rubbed their hands together in satisfaction—but Vandene scowled. "I do not need novices getting under my feet while I—"

"You're just as blind as Elayne," Nynaeve broke in. "They have experience making Aes Sedai take them for something other than what they are. They can work at your direction, and that will give you time to sleep and eat. I don't believe you're doing either." She drew herself up, draping her shawl across her shoulders and along her arms. It was quite a performance. Short as she was, no taller than Zarya and markedly shorter than Vandene or Kirstian, she managed to seem the tallest one there by inches. It was a skill Elayne wished she could master. Although she would not try in a dress cut that way. Nynaeve was in danger of coming right out. Still, that did not diminish her presence. She was the essence of command. "You will do it, Vandene," she said firmly.

Vandene's scowl faded slowly, but fade it did. Nynaeve stood higher in the Power than she, and even if she never consciously thought of the fact, deeply ingrained custom made her yield, however unwillingly. By the time she turned to the two women in white, her face was as near composed as it had been since Adeleas' murder. Which just meant that the judge might not order an execution right now. Later, perhaps. Her gaunt face was calm, and starkly grim.

"I did teach novices for a time," she said. "A short time. The Mistress of Novices thought I was too hard on my students." The pair's eagerness cooled a bit. "Her name was Sereille Bagand." Zarya's face went as pale as Kirstian's, and Kirstian swayed as if suddenly dizzy. As Mistress of Novices and later Amyrlin Seat, Sereille was a legend. The sort of legend that made you wake in the middle of the night sweating. "I do eat," Vandene said to Nynaeve. "But everything tastes like ashes." With a curt gesture at the two novices, she led them away past Lan. They were staggering slightly as they followed.

"Stubborn woman," Nynaeve grumbled, frowning at the retreating backs, but there was more than a hint of sympathy in her voice. "I know a dozen herbs that would help her sleep, but she won't touch them. I've half a mind to slip something into her evening wine."

A wise ruler, Elayne thought, knows when to speak and when not. Well, that was wisdom in anyone. She did not say that Nynaeve calling anyone stubborn was the rooster calling the pheasant proud. "Do you know what Reanne's news is?" she said instead. "Good news—'of a sort'—so I understand."

"I haven't seen her this morning," the other woman muttered, still peering after Vandene. "I haven't been out of my rooms." Abruptly she gave herself a shake, and for some reason frowned suspiciously at Elayne. And then at Lan, of all things. Unperturbed, he continued to stand guard.

Nynaeve claimed her marriage was glorious—she could be shockingly frank about it with other women—but Elayne thought she must be lying to cover up disappointment. Very likely Lan was ready for an attack, ready to fight, even when asleep. It would be like lying down beside a hungry lion. Besides, that stone face was enough to chill any marriage bed. Luckily, Nynaeve had no idea what she thought. The woman actually smiled. An amused smile, oddly. Amused, and . . . could it be condescending? Of course not. Imagination.
Vandene's last line always makes me cry...but there is a lot of win in those few paragraphs.

sleepinghour
06-11-2012, 03:28 PM
Vandene's last line always makes me cry...but there is a lot of win in those few paragraphs.
What's funny is that a lot of Elayne's assumptions about Nynaeve turn out to be completely off the mark once you get to Nynaeve's chapter.

Toying idly with the end of her braid, she looked . . . content . . . not an emotion anyone usually associated with Nynaeve al'Meara.
[...]
"I haven't seen her this morning," the other woman muttered, still peering after Vandene. "I haven't been out of my rooms." Abruptly she gave herself a shake, and for some reason frowned suspiciously at Elayne. And then at Lan, of all things. Unperturbed, he continued to stand guard.

Nynaeve claimed her marriage was glorious—she could be shockingly frank about it with other women—but Elayne thought she must be lying to cover up disappointment. Very likely Lan was ready for an attack, ready to fight, even when asleep. It would be like lying down beside a hungry lion. Besides, that stone face was enough to chill any marriage bed. Luckily, Nynaeve had no idea what she thought. The woman actually smiled. An amused smile, oddly. Amused, and . . . could it be condescending? Of course not. Imagination.


Then in Nynaeve's chapter, we find out the actual reason why she hadn't left her rooms that morning and seemed oddly content afterwards. :D
"Do you remember how you kept me in our rooms yesterday morning?" she murmured, looking up in time to catch a grin replacing concern on his face. Of course he remembered. Her face grew hot. Talking to friends was one thing, but being forward with her own husband still seemed quite another. "Well, I want you to take me back there right now and keep me from putting on any clothes for about a year!" She had been quite furious about that, at first. But he had ways to make her forget to be furious.

Terez
06-11-2012, 03:39 PM
Yes, I think that was supposed to be obvious even when it was in Elayne's POV. Hence Nynaeve's condescending smile, for the virgin. :) (Not virgin for long, though!) (That's definitely part of the win in those paragraphs.)

Heinz
06-11-2012, 04:51 PM
Some of the best writing in the book so far, if not the best:

Vandene's last line always makes me cry...but there is a lot of win in those few paragraphs.

Agreed about that being an excellent passage with Vandene. Though she did not make a ton of appearances on screen, I liked the character. Was bummed that she did not survive.

Terez
06-11-2012, 04:56 PM
To be honest, I think RJ overused the food-tasting-like-ashes thing, but that was a good use of it.

GonzoTheGreat
06-12-2012, 03:52 AM
To be honest, I think RJ overused the food-tasting-like-ashes thing, but that was a good use of it.
In RJ's defense: the DO makes it into reality more and more, so it may be simply a factual description.

The Unreasoner
06-12-2012, 01:17 PM
I'm rewriting my Demandred page to correct some mistakes and add the new quote I discovered in TDR about Sammael planning to invade Murandy
You should probably put some kind of qualifier in there because there is very little evidence for Demandred being in Murandy, and even less for Sammael being aware of it. None at all for him being aware of it by TDR.

Putting that quote on the Demandred page may give some people the wrong idea. Because there is no reason to think it has anything to do with Demandred.

Sammael wants to expand, the Illianers tried to take Murandy before, and the soldiers are probably infected by Sammael's aggressive nature.

Terez
06-12-2012, 01:34 PM
You should probably put some kind of qualifier in there because there is very little evidence for Demandred being in Murandy, and even less for Sammael being aware of it. None at all for him being aware of it by TDR.
I will write my page however I feel like it.

Putting that quote on the Demandred page may give some people the wrong idea. Because there is no reason to think it has anything to do with Demandred.
No reason to think it didn't, and plenty of reason to believe it did. I know you don't want to believe it, but that doesn't change the fact that you're wrong.

The Unreasoner
06-12-2012, 01:42 PM
I will write my page however I feel like it.
You don't feel a sense of responsibility to present things without coloring them with your own opinions? Given your position in the fandom, you have a great deal more power over the masses.

Haven't you ever seen Spider-Man?
No reason to think it didn't, and plenty of reason to believe it did. I know you don't want to believe it, but that doesn't change the fact that you're wrong.
No. We have plenty of evidence that Sammael doesn't know shit about Demandred's whereabouts as late as LoC. His closest ally (Graendal) is ignorant as late as ToM. There is no evidence of Roedran acting out of the ordinary yet either. It has nothing to do with what I want to be true, it has to do with you presenting evidence badly.

Terez
06-12-2012, 01:48 PM
You don't feel a sense of responsibility to present things without coloring them with your own opinions?
I don't believe most of my readers are so much idiots that they will think there is something in the text other than what I've quoted. I don't think they need to be beaten over the head with it.

jana
06-12-2012, 03:40 PM
You should probably put some kind of qualifier in there because there is very little evidence for Demandred being in Murandy, and even less for Sammael being aware of it. None at all for him being aware of it by TDR.

Putting that quote on the Demandred page may give some people the wrong idea.

You don't feel a sense of responsibility to present things without coloring them with your own opinions? Given your position in the fandom, you have a great deal more power over the masses.

You're being a jack ass and it's getting on my nerves. As you say, Terez is known. People know what they're going to be looking at when they go to the page. It's written right on the FAQ that she and Marie Curie wrote it. These aren't innocent little lambs who are reading it, and they aren't idiots. She can write it however the hell she wants to write it because it's hers.

newyorkersedai
06-12-2012, 06:40 PM
I've been waiting with my kool-aid for the comet that Terez says will take us all to Randland!

Ieyasu
06-12-2012, 06:49 PM
You should probably put some kind of qualifier in there because there is very little evidence for Demandred being in Murandy, and even less for Sammael being aware of it. None at all for him being aware of it by TDR.

Putting that quote on the Demandred page may give some people the wrong idea. Because there is no reason to think it has anything to do with Demandred.

Sammael wants to expand, the Illianers tried to take Murandy before, and the soldiers are probably infected by Sammael's aggressive nature.

You don't feel a sense of responsibility to present things without coloring them with your own opinions? Given your position in the fandom, you have a great deal more power over the masses.

Haven't you ever seen Spider-Man?




I use and refer to her database all the time. It is often colored with her opinions and various theories she espouses. Riddled with annotations for various factions and theories. I expect that, as it is her project. I do not agree with many of her opinions and conclusions that she draws. That does not lessen the value of her database.

Why would she not present her opinions on her page? Why would you think it needs some sort of qualifier? What responsibility are you referring to here? Terez uses her own time and resources to provide a tool that she shares with the community. She is not obligated to do anything at all. Position in the fandom? She is another fan just like me, you, and everyone else here. She may dedicate more of her time and provide some tools which is more than can be said for the vast majority of us... but she has no position with the fan-dom beyond being another fan herself...

Obvious troll is obvious...

Terez
06-12-2012, 06:54 PM
Obvious troll is obvious...
Who are you, and what did you do with Ieyasu? :p

Ieyasu
06-12-2012, 06:59 PM
Who are you, and what did you do with Ieyasu? :p


I was going to make a quip about how much I hate to take your side... leave it to you to bring it up for me hahaha

<3

The Unreasoner
06-12-2012, 07:07 PM
You're being a jack ass and it's getting on my nerves.
Then I apologize. But I do think some people take what Terez says as fact, especially at DM.

I'll refrain from commenting on it further.

Terez
06-12-2012, 07:08 PM
Then I apologize. But I do think some people take what Terez says as fact, especially at DM.
Even at DM it's incredibly rare.

The Unreasoner
06-12-2012, 07:09 PM
Obvious troll is obvious...
I mean what I said, and I thought it needed to be said. If that's trolling...we clearly have some larger disagreements.

Southpaw2012
06-12-2012, 07:54 PM
Roedran has been acting strange in all actuality. The fact that he never showed at the Field of Merrilor in the most recent book being the most recent :/

The Unreasoner
06-13-2012, 03:47 PM
I know I said I'd refrain from posting in this thread, but I just remembered a theory I saw a few years ago on this:
"Here come the Aelfinn to steal all your bread; here come the Ogier to chop off your head." Why would the Aelfinn steal bread?I'm doing this from memory (and I'll try to find a link), but the theory says that this childhood rhyme may have confused the Aelfinn with the Eelfinn, and that Demandred wished for the food to spoil.

Obviously the timing needs work, but it may be a corrupted Foretelling.

Terez
06-13-2012, 04:00 PM
If you're going to pick off my comments from Twitter and Facebook, the least you could do is read the conversations there about it. Are you my Facebook friend? There are a ton of people I don't know who are, so I have no idea.

Kimon
06-13-2012, 04:30 PM
I know I said I'd refrain from posting in this thread, but I just remembered a theory I saw a few years ago on this:
I'm doing this from memory (and I'll try to find a link), but the theory says that this childhood rhyme may have confused the Aelfinn with the Eelfinn, and that Demandred wished for the food to spoil.

Obviously the timing needs work, but it may be a corrupted Foretelling.

What exactly does this have to do with the rest of the thread?? Anyway, the nursing rhyme just seems a playful corruption of Oranges and Lemons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oranges_and_Lemons

Here's the last two lines:

Here comes a candle to light you to bed,
And here comes a chopper to chop off your head!

Terez
06-13-2012, 04:40 PM
I was unsure whether to put this on the Sorilea thread or this one. But here is an excellent example of Cadsuane and Verin working together to 'guide' people to not just follow a course of action, but to suggest it themselves:
"All of you may call me Eadwina," Verin said. Shalon barely suppressed a start. Kumira did not so much as blink. "Do you consider history, First Counsel?" Verin continued without looking up. "Guaire Amalasan's siege of Far Madding lasted just three weeks. A savage business, at the end."

"I doubt they want to hear about him," Cadsuane said sharply, and indeed, for some reason more than one of the Counsels looked uncomfortable. Who in the Light was this Guaire Amalasan? The name sounded vaguely familiar, but Shalon could not place it. Some shorebound conqueror, obviously.

Aleis glanced at Cadsuane, and her mouth tightened. "History records Guaire Amalasan as a remarkable general, Eadwina Sedai, perhaps second only to Artur Hawkwing himself. What brings him to mind?"

Shalon had never seen one of the Aes Sedai traveling with Cadsuane fail to heed her most casual warning as quickly as they obeyed her commands, but Verin paid no heed this time. She did not look up. "I was just thinking that he couldn't use the Power, yet he crushed Far Madding like an overripe plum." The stout little Aes Sedai paused as though something had just occurred to her. "You know, the Dragon Reborn has armies in Illian and Tear, in Andor and Cairhien. Not to mention many tens of thousands of Aiel. Very fierce, the Aiel. I wonder you can be so complacent about his Asha'man scouting you."

"I think you have frightened them quite enough," Cadsuane said firmly.

Verin finally turned from the gilded rail, her eyes open very wide, a round, startled shorebird. Her plump hands even fluttered like wings. "Oh. I didn't mean. . . . Oh, no. I would think the Dragon Reborn would have moved against you already if he intended to. No, I suspect the Seanchan. . . . You've heard of them? What we hear from Altara and farther west is really quite horrible. They seem to sweep everything before them. No, I suspect they're somewhat more important to his plans than capturing Far Madding. Unless you do something to anger him, of course, or upset his followers. But I am sure you are too intelligent to do that." She looked very innocent. There was a stir among the Counsels, the ripple that small fish made on the surface when a lionfish swam below.

Cadsuane sighed, her patience clearly at an end. "If you want to discuss the Dragon Reborn, Eadwina, you must do so without me. I want to wash my face and have some hot tea."

The First Counsel jerked as though she had forgotten Cadsuane's existence, incredible as that seemed. "Yes. Yes, of course. Cumere, Narvais, would you please escort the Wavemistress and Cadsuane Sedai to ... to my palace and make them welcome?" That slight hitch was the only sign she gave of discomfort at having Cadsuane in her dwelling. "I wish to have some further talk with Eadwina Sedai, if it pleases her." Followed by most of the Counsels, Aleis glided away along the balcony. Verin looked suddenly alarmed and uncertain as they gathered her up and swept her along. Shalon did not believe the surprise or unease any more than she had the earlier innocence. She thought she knew now where Jahar was. She just did not know why.
I don't know if Cadsuane could have pulled that off without Verin's skills, but Cadsuane's blunt personality actually played into it quite well.

Terez
06-13-2012, 10:48 PM
I love that the Far Madding men take little opportunities to be rebellious. Verin had to pretend not to know the customs of Far Madding, so she tipped the bearers of her sedan chair. They weren't supposed to accept, but they did, and they seemed grateful. Rand was trying to question one of the serving boys at an inn, and the guy wanted to help him or he wouldn't have said anything at all, but he was nervous because his mistress wouldn't like it if he stayed too long to talk. Rand gave him a silver mark along with the coppers for the wine, and when he brought the wine to Rand's table he thanked him for the silver.

Also, I know I'm tweeting too much when Facebook stops syncing me.

Terez
06-13-2012, 11:06 PM
"Oh, dear. I'm afraid Cadsuane is very much a traditionalist in some ways, Rand. I've never actually heard her call a man uppity, but. . . ." She laid fingertips against her mouth in thought for a moment, then nodded, raindrops sliding down her face. "I believe she will listen to what you have to say, if you can manage to erase the bad impression you made on her. Or at least smudge it, as much as you can. Few sisters are impressed by titles or crowns, Rand, and Cadsuane less than any other I know. She cares much more about whether or not people are fools. If you can show her you aren't a fool, she will listen."...

...Shifting her cloak, she seemed to notice the dampness of the wool for the first time. "Oh, my. I must go dry off. I suggest you do the same." Half turned to leave, she paused and looked back over her shoulder at him. Her dark eyes were unblinking. Suddenly she did not sound muddled at all. "You could do far worse than Cadsuane for an advisor, Rand, but I doubt you could do better. If she accepts, and you truly are not a fool, you will listen to her advice."...

..."If you ask me, Mistress Farshaw, when you have a pretty husband, you need to watch your friends, too."

Watching the woman march back to the red arch, Min's eyes sparkled with the mirth that flowed along the bond, and her mouth struggled against laughing. Instead of handing the message to Rand, she broke the seal with her thumb and unfolded the letter herself, for all the world as if she were a native of this mad city.

She frowned slightly as she read, but a brief flare in the bond was the only warning he had. Crumpling the letter, she turned toward the fireplace; he bounded from the bench to snatch it from her hand just before she could toss it into the flames.

"Don't be a fool," she said, catching his wrist. She stared up at him, her large dark eyes deadly serious. All that came to him through the bond was a grim intensity. "Please don't be a fool."

"I promised Verin I'd try not," he said, but Min did not smile.
.

Terez
06-13-2012, 11:22 PM
"Yes, Mistress," the chinless fellow said, ducking his head to a stout gray-haired woman with a squint. Wrapping four meat pies in coarse paper, he handed her the package before taking her coins. "A pleasure, Mistress. The Light shine on you." She tottered away without a word, clutching the wrapped pies under her cloak, and he grimaced sourly at her back before returning his attention to Rand.
.

Terez
06-14-2012, 06:29 AM
Obviously everything Verin told him went straight over his head:
Cadsuane took charge, issuing brisk commands, as might have been expected. One way or another, Aes Sedai always did, given half a chance, and Rand did not try to stop her....

...Cadsuane gathered the Aes Sedai around her, and Alivia and the Sea Folk Windfinder, too. Harine grumbled loudly about being excluded, until a finger pointed by Cadsuane sent her stalking across the hilltop. Moad, in his odd blue quilted coat, sat Harine down on an outcrop, and talked soothingly, though sometimes his eyes went to the surrounding trees, and then he slid a hand along the long ivory hilt of his sword. Jahar appeared from the direction of the horses, stripping the cloth wrappings from Callandor. The crystal sword, with its long clear hilt and slightly curving blade, sparkled in the pale sunlight. At an imperious gesture from Merise, he quickened his step to join her. Damer was in that group, too, and Eben. Cadsuane had not asked to use Callandor. That could pass. For now, it could.
Woolheaded sheepherder.

Now I'm reading New Spring.

Ishara
06-14-2012, 07:03 AM
Hey, out of curiosity, why out of order?

GonzoTheGreat
06-14-2012, 07:05 AM
Hey, out of curiosity, why out of order?
Belief and order give strength, but Terez may be too pretty for that. Will explain when see you next.

Zombie Sammael
06-14-2012, 12:40 PM
Belief and order give strength, but Terez may be too pretty for that. Will explain when see you next.

*tears Gonzo to pieces and drinks his blood*

WHAT?

Weiramon
06-14-2012, 01:50 PM
Aye, it's like . . . thorns.

No doubt this Gonzo lad has gone fishing.

Terez
06-14-2012, 02:04 PM
Hey, out of curiosity, why out of order?
There is no real accepted order for New Spring. Some people read it after COT because that's where it was published, but I figured the Cleansing was a good prelude.

Terez
06-15-2012, 06:31 AM
More thoughts on why after Winter's Heart is a good place to read New Spring.

1. After the Cleansing is a good place to take a break. It's better to go straight into KOD after COT because it's a bit of a cliffhanger.

2. Cadsuane generaling the Battle of Shadar Logoth was a high point for her character. Maybe her highest in the series, though she has other good moments. It's a good place to take a little side trip and learn more about her.

3. It's almost exactly in the middle of the books with no Moiraine, just after Siuan's ushering of Egwene into proper Amyrlinhood (and Egwene's ushering of Siuan into proper low-standing sisterhood) and just before the siege of Tar Valon, such as it was, begins.

4. It's just after Elayne begins to work toward gaining the Lion Throne, just after Elayne sends out her first tendrils of claim to the Sun Throne. A good place to introduce her contender.

5. Just after the deaths of Meri and Selame (with a blatant hint pointing toward Aran'gar), we meet The Three in context in New Spring, and just before the deaths of Kairen and Anaiya.

6. Several other Aes Sedai developed in the books up to Winter's Heart and especially in the books since ACOS are further developed in New Spring, some of them as whining, bleating Accepted.

7. There are hints in ACOS onward about the Vileness, and New Spring answers some questions while raising others.

8. Lan is very much a part of the action at the end of WH, not counting the Cleansing where he was guarding Min and Harine. It's funny to read about how badly he wants to avoid Aes Sedai after reading about him doing stupid shit with Rand because Nynaeve told him to.

Etc. I'm sure you could make arguments for other places, but I think it's at least as good a spot as any other. I'm about 2/3 done with it; I'll probably finish it this morning.

Ishara
06-15-2012, 06:34 AM
I meant chronological order, but your reasoning works for me. ;)

Terez
06-15-2012, 06:35 AM
I know what you meant, but hardly anyone thinks it's a good idea to read them in chronological order.

SauceyBlueConfetti
06-15-2012, 10:39 AM
I know what you meant, but hardly anyone thinks it's a good idea to read them in chronological order.

That is funny, a friend just asked me this week which order he should recommend ANOTHER friend read the books. I told him I always say to read them the way they were published. I always wonder when reading newer folks posts/theories if they read New Spring first.

Davian93
06-15-2012, 11:22 AM
I go with order of publish for rereads...when I dont go with the random order reread where I just randomly take books off the shelf in no particular order (that is actually fun IMHO and I've done it a few times).

Great Lord of the Dark
06-15-2012, 12:30 PM
I found that chronological order works much better with this reread. Cadsuane's early appearance does not detract from her sudden disruptive arrival in Book 7. The confirmed existence of the Black Ajah does not affect the paranoia formed over it in Book 3. There is a slight shift from this being Rand's story, to this being Lan and Moiraine's story (in which Rand is a bit player) the legacy of which will largely depend on whether A Memory of Light ends with any perspective from either Lan or Moiraine. There is certainly no added confusion for a new reader by starting with New Spring, since Book 1 doesn't explain the context for a lot of things until later in any case.

Whatever I said in years past, you don't lose anything by starting with New Spring, and you gain the ability not to interrupt the flow of the main story.

Terez
06-15-2012, 02:20 PM
Brandon recommended new readers not start there because it reveals too much about Moiraine and Lan; they're supposed to be mysterious in the early books. On top of that, all those Aes Sedai will be forgotten by the time they reappear in the series.

Great Lord of the Dark
06-15-2012, 04:23 PM
The main mystery about Moiraine is whether she means Rand ill as Ba'alzamon implies. While it affects certain decisions the boys make, I don't see that the reader's perception is altered; Moiraine saved the Two Rivers, Ba'alzamon is the embodiment of the Dark One. Clearly evil trumps mysterious motives. Knowing Moiraine's motives in no way diminishes the mystery of how she plans to act on those motives: will she lock Rand away in the White Tower until Tarmon Gai'don, or use him and toss him away once his purpose has been served?

Any mystery about their origins is largely inconsequential, and shouldn't act as a reason to read New Spring later.

recognizing the third-tier Aes Sedai as novices and Accepted is more of an Easter Egg than a compelling reason to read in any order.

But if you are going to read New Spring later, then you have chosen one of the two good spots, at the end of the second major act where there is a sense of closure.

The other logical spot to read it is after it's original publication as a short story in Legends, right after A Crown of Swords, (take that you publication date fetishists) which also ends with a note of closure, and has the bonus of coming immediately after the introduction of Cadsuane and the Vileness, so you can satisfy your curiosity on these topics right away. You also get a bonus of 'look how close they came to inviting Sheriam on the hunt' just before her Dark affiliations are revealed in the main series.

Terez
06-15-2012, 05:46 PM
It also takes away the mystery surrounding Rand. I don't think I'd ever recommend for a new reader to read New Spring first.

jana
06-15-2012, 10:45 PM
The main mystery about Moiraine is whether she means Rand ill as Ba'alzamon implies. While it affects certain decisions the boys make, I don't see that the reader's perception is altered; Moiraine saved the Two Rivers, Ba'alzamon is the embodiment of the Dark One. Clearly evil trumps mysterious motives. Knowing Moiraine's motives in no way diminishes the mystery of how she plans to act on those motives: will she lock Rand away in the White Tower until Tarmon Gai'don, or use him and toss him away once his purpose has been served?

Any mystery about their origins is largely inconsequential, and shouldn't act as a reason to read New Spring later.

I disagree completely, at least as far as new readers are concerned. Moiraine worried me in EotW. I flip flopped back and forth on her about every other chapter until around the time they all reunited in Caemlyn. Yes, she saved the Two Rivers. But I was still worried about her. There is no way in hell I would have had any doubt on her after reading New Spring. She was almost warm in that book. It would never have even entered my mind that she would do Rand harm or "lock him away." In my experience with the first half of EotW, Moiraine created about 1/4 of the tension. This would not have been the case if I'd read New Spring first. I would never recommend reading NS first to someone new to the series.

Terez
06-16-2012, 06:25 AM
Some of the Asha’man might believe the Aes Sedai were resigned to their captivity, but only a fool could think fifty-one sisters who had been forcibly bonded would all embrace resignation, and Logain was no fool. Besides, he knew they had been sent to destroy the Black Tower. Yet if he suspected that they were still trying to find a way to end the threat of hundreds of men who could channel... Light, constrained as they were, one order could halt them in their tracks! You will do nothing to harm the Black Tower. She could not understand why that command had not been given as a simple precaution....

...It was all Gabrelle could do to control the fear that was rising in her. Did Toveine never think about what she must sense through the bond? Something that had always been there in the connection with Logain – determination – now lay hard and sharp as a knife. She thought she knew what it meant, this time, and knowing made her mouth dry. Against whom, she could not say, but she was sure that Logain Ablar was riding to war.
.

Great Lord of the Dark
06-16-2012, 07:57 AM
Of course, when the series is all done, it may be that the best place to read New Spring is after A Memory of Light, to not interrupt the main sequence. If those other two outriggers had ever been written, I suspect we wouldn't be trying to plug them in the middle.

I suppose it makes a difference whether you're talking about a new reader vs. a reread. But The Eye of the World is a better hook to lure them in, which is probably the only consideration we have when we're convincing new readers this 14.5 volume epic is the next thing they should read.

GonzoTheGreat
06-16-2012, 08:31 AM
Why not advise them to start at the beginning, with the BWB? :p

Boli
06-16-2012, 03:03 PM
In my current re-read I started with new spring; it only worked in that order BECAUSE I have read the books previously.

For a first time reader; I would recommend it just after tFoH after Morraine's disappearance as part of a "flashback".... but that is my personal preference.

Zombie Sammael
06-16-2012, 04:33 PM
The last couple of times I've reread, I've read according to internal chronology, i.e. New Spring first. I do feel it takes something away from TEOTW; the sense of mystery surrounding Lan and Moiraine that Terez mentioned is all gone, and it becomes far too blindingly obvious that Rand is the Dragon Reborn. When I do my post-AMOL reread, I'll slip it in somewhere appropriate; I think just after Moiraine's "death" in TFOH would be a great place for it.

Terez
06-17-2012, 03:55 AM
Once, the thought of Faile displeased would have made him uneasy, but that was before he learned about her spies. And that little matter of the Broken Crown that Elyas had let slip. Everybody always said that wives kept their secrets close, but there were limits!

Egwene began at once, smoothly. They were from the north, from Saldaea, from farms outside a tiny village. Neither of them had been more than twenty miles from home in their whole lives before this. But they had heard gleemen's stories, and merchants' tales, and they wanted to see some of the world. Caemlyn, and Illian. The Sea of Storms, and maybe even the fabled islands of the Sea Folk.

Perrin listened with satisfaction. Not even Thom Merrilin could have made a better tale from the little they knew of the world outside the Two Rivers, or one better suited to their needs.

"From Saldaea, eh?" Elyas said when she was done.

Perrin nodded. "That's right. We thought about seeing Maradon first. I'd surely like to see the King. But the capital city would be the first place our fathers would look."

That was his part of it, to make it plain they had never been to Maradon. That way no one would expect them to know anything about the city, just in case they ran into someone who really had been there. It was all a long way from Emond's Field and the events of Winternight. Nobody hearing the tale would have any reason to think of Tar Valon, or Aes Sedai.

"Quite a story." Elyas nodded. "Yes, quite a story. There's a few things wrong with it, but the main thing is Dapple says it's all a lump of lies. Every last word."
I love little ironies.

fionwe1987
06-17-2012, 04:00 AM
"I'd surely like to see the King."

BWAHAHAHAHA!

GonzoTheGreat
06-17-2012, 04:02 AM
"I'd surely like to see the King."

BWAHAHAHAHA!
I actually never caught that one. Good find.

Grig
06-18-2012, 06:03 PM
I actually never caught that one. Good find.

It does somewhat detract from the humor that Dapple needs to be the one that detects the lies. Elyas, as Terez's quoting makes clear, should know full well that they were not Saldaean peasants based that "King" flub (ignoring their accents, which are distinctive enough that Morsase recognized Rand's based on hearing it once in the past). Ah, farm folk, not realizing that accents are a thing and making themselves look silly in so doing.

Of course, he does say that there are a few things wrong with the story, so I'm just being too nitpicky I think. Elyas was just using it to make a point about the wolves to prepare Perrin for his big reveal.

Davian93
06-18-2012, 09:47 PM
Elyas assuredly did catch it but Dapple was the pack leader and Elyas was merely acting as a translator for her in that scene. So it was kinda both to be honest.

Terez
06-18-2012, 09:58 PM
In Perrin's chapters after the Cleansing is done, Neald is annoying him because he's being cheerful and Perrin doesn't know why. He laughs a lot and Perrin thinks he's going mad. It goes on and on, but this bit made me laugh:
Seonid had to be found. She was not precisely hiding, yet she had learned of his departure, and, leaving her Warders to hold her horse quite openly, she dodged about on foot trying to keep carts between herself and him. The pale Aes Sedai could not hide her scent, though, or if she could, she did not know it was necessary. She was surprised when he tracked her down quickly, and indignant when he marched her to her horse ahead of Stayer. Even so, he was well under the hour riding away from So Habor, with the Winged Guards making their ring of red armor around Berelain, the Two Rivers men surrounding the eight loaded carts that trundled along behind the three remaining banners, and Neald grinning for all he was worth. Not to mention trying to chat up the Aes Sedai. Perrin did not know what to do if the fellow really was going mad.
It's funny, but it seems to suggest that Neald feels an equality with the Aes Sedai that he didn't feel before.

Terez
06-18-2012, 10:08 PM
Also, I'd forgotten about this:
“I once met a man who was far from home.
His eyes were yellow and his wits were stone.
He asked me to hold smoke in my hand,
and said he could show me a watery land.
He put his head in the ground and his feet in the air,
and said he could dance like a woman fair.
He said he could stand till he turned to stone.
When I blinked my eyes, he was gone.”
No one ever talks about it that I know of.

Terez
06-19-2012, 02:49 AM
On the subject of Sorilea again (and hopefully we've gotten that mostly out of our systems for the moment; I think we all know how we stand now), I think Suroth's POV is a really good example of how Sorilea's brain might work. The Seanchan version of ji'e'toh has a harder grip on her brain than the Shadow does in many ways. I compare the Seanchan hierarchical customs to ji'e'toh because the rules are just as complex and rigid, even though the hierarchical aspect of ji'e'toh is not, really, and many aspects of it seem more casual. Suroth is very concerned about the honor of her name, and not only because it is a tool to help her achieve her objectives; she is concerned about it for after her death as well.

Terez
06-19-2012, 06:36 AM
Description fail:
Sipping her wine – and suppressing a sigh; it was from the here and now; she had hoped for a delicate Satare or one of the exquisite Comolads – she stroked her gown with beringed fingers. "I found one as well, but beyond streith, it contained the most appalling collection of useless rubbish."
Graendal's gown turned a darker gray, regrettably obscuring the view. It was real streith. Aran'gar had found a pair of stasis-boxes herself, but filled with the most appalling rubbish for the most part.

GonzoTheGreat
06-19-2012, 08:00 AM
Description fail:

Might be a technical term. Just as American military rations can be described as "iron rations", even when they only contain trace parts of iron, so perhaps the contents of stasis-boxes can be said to contain "the most appalling rubbish" even if there is only very little real rubbish in it. :p

Terez
06-19-2012, 09:30 AM
I just realized that RJ is Valan Luca.
"I expect twice as many visitors today, maybe three times as many, and tomorrow as well. People can't see everything in one visit, and here they can afford to come twice. Word of mouth, Cauthon. Word of mouth. That brings as many as Aludra's nightflowers. I feel almost like a ta'veren, the way things are falling out. Large audiences and the prospect of more. A warrant of protection from the High Lady." Luca cut off abruptly, looking faintly embarrassed, as if he had just remembered that Mat’s name was on that warrant as being excluded from protection.

"You might not like it if you really were ta'veren," Mat muttered, which made the other man give him an odd look. He put a finger behind the black silk scarf that hid his hanging scar and tugged at it. For a moment, the thing had felt too tight. He had spent a night of bleak dreams about corpses floating downstream and woken to the dice spinning in his head, always a bad sign, and now they seemed to be bouncing off the inside of his skull harder than before. "I can pay you as much as you'll make for every show you give between here and Lugard, no matter how many people attend. That's on top of what I promised for carrying us to Lugard." If the show was not stopping all the time, they could cut the time to reach Lugard by three quarters at the least. More, if he could convince Luca to spend whole days on the road instead of half days, the way they did now.

Luca seemed taken with the idea, nodding thoughtfully, but then he shook his head with a sadness that was plainly feigned and spread his hands. "And what will that look like, a traveling show that never stops to give shows? It will look suspicious, that's what. I have the warrant, and the High Lady will speak up for me besides, but you certainly don't want to pull the Seanchan down on us. No, it's safer for you this way." The man was not thinking of Mat Cauthon's bloody safety, he was thinking that his bloody shows might earn him more than Mat paid. That, plus making himself as much the center of attention as any of the performers was nearly as important to him as gold. Some of the showfolk talked of what they would do when they retired. Not Luca. He intended to keep on until he fell over dead in the middle of a show. And he would arrange it so he had the largest audience possible when he did.Now it all makes sense.

Seth Baker
06-19-2012, 09:42 AM
should know full well that they were not Saldaean peasants based that "King" flub (ignoring their accents, which are distinctive enough that Morsase recognized Rand's based on hearing it once in the past). Ah, farm folk, not realizing that accents are a thing and making themselves look silly in so doing.

Ah, so you Irish folk are trying to claim that you're Egyptians.

I see.

Heinz
06-19-2012, 01:38 PM
Ah, so you Irish folk are trying to claim that you're Egyptians.

I see.

RJ watched Highlander too much, obviously. (Scottish in that case)

Terez
06-19-2012, 01:47 PM
I had gone back to wondering about Balwer again, but then I read this:
"Ah, they steal a chicken now and then, General," Neald said with a laugh, giving one of his thin waxed mustaches a twist, "but I'd not be calling them great thieves." He had enjoyed the Seanchan astonishment at the gateway that had brought them all here, and he was still posing over it, somehow managing to strut while sitting his saddle. It was difficult to remember that had he not earned that black coat, he would still be working his father's farm and perhaps wondering about marriage to a neighbor girl in a year or two. "Great theft requires courage, and Tinkers have not a bit of it."

Huddled in his dark cloak, Balwer grimaced, or perhaps smiled. Sometimes it was hard to tell the difference with the desiccated little man unless Perrin could catch his scent....

...."Twice they offered me shelter when I needed it, me and my friends, and asked nothing in return," Perrin said quietly. "Yet what I remember best about them was when Trollocs surrounded Emond's Field. The Tuatha'an stood on the green with children strapped to their backs, the few of their own that survived and ours. They would not fight—it isn't their way—but if the Trollocs overran us, they were ready to try to carry the children to safety. Carrying our children would have hampered them, made escape even less likely than it already was, but they asked for the task." Neald gave an embarrassed cough and looked away. A flush tinged his cheek. For all he had seen and done, he was young yet, just seventeen. This time, there was no doubt about Balwer's thin smile.
Though I think Balwer's irritation was less over the insult to the Tinkers and more over Neald trying to act like an Aes Sedai (i.e. like he knows everything). I don't think Balwer cares about much aside from the truth, whatever it might be. I hold out a small hope that Galad will reclaim him and make him High Inquisitor. The job seems to have been vacated.

Zombie Sammael
06-19-2012, 02:09 PM
I just realized that RJ is Valan Luca.
Now it all makes sense.


But Luca is my least favourite character!

*BRAINSPLOSION*

Ishara
06-19-2012, 02:11 PM
Ha ha. The justice and irony of that would be awesome. But I sort of see Galad eliminating that position from existence in the Children of the Light, no?

Terez
06-19-2012, 02:17 PM
Ha ha. The justice and irony of that would be awesome. But I sort of see Galad eliminating that position from existence in the Children of the Light, no?
Perhaps. I was thinking of a modification. But then, I currently favor the theory that the Whitecloaks will end up being Egwene's personal army. :)

Grig
06-19-2012, 02:24 PM
I had gone back to wondering about Balwer again, but then I read this:
They would not fight—it isn't their way—but if the Trollocs overran us, they were ready to try to carry the children to safety. Carrying our children would have hampered them, made escape even less likely than it already was, but they asked for the task."


So...what you're saying is that Tinkers are so set on their quest to steal Randland's children that they're even willing to die to do it? Interesting...

Zombie Sammael
06-19-2012, 04:43 PM
Perhaps. I was thinking of a modification. But then, I currently favor the theory that the Whitecloaks will end up being Egwene's personal army. :)

No way - the Whitecloaks are going to take up residence in Cairhien, which Galad will rule as Elayne's First Prince of the Sword/regent. I expect they will even go so far as to replace their current sunburst with the Cairhienin rising sun sigil, as a sign of the order moving out of the darkness of fanaticism and to a more enlightened world view under Galad, and also representing and acknowledging the dawn of the Fourth Age.

Terez
06-20-2012, 12:37 AM
No way - the Whitecloaks are going to take up residence in Cairhien, which Galad will rule as Elayne's First Prince of the Sword/regent.
Nope, Moiraine will rule Cairhien, or I will throw a fit.

Ieyasu
06-20-2012, 01:13 AM
...or I will throw a fit.

I think you will be throwing a couple fits anyway :P

Terez
06-20-2012, 01:48 AM
Why would you think that?

Ieyasu
06-20-2012, 01:58 AM
Why would you think that?

Biggest reason:

No one is going to butt rape Demandred

;)

Terez
06-20-2012, 02:33 AM
And? That's hardly something to throw a fit over.

Random Man
06-20-2012, 02:37 AM
Nope, Moiraine will rule Cairhien, or I will throw a fit.

Just to interject a quick point, I think Moiraine will throw a fit if she does end up ruling Cairhien. But maybe she's changed enough for it to suit her. Myself, I doubt it.

Ieyasu
06-20-2012, 02:42 AM
And? That's hardly something to throw a fit over.

I think Moiraine not taking the throne of Cairhien is hardly worthy of throwing a fit over either... but i dont think its going to happen at all... so inc terez fit lol

I will be interested how many (if any) of your theories prove true. I dont see this one (or many others) as having much chance.. hence why I think you will be throwing a couple fits anyway ;)

EDIT:
but mainly its the butt rape thing hehe

Terez
06-20-2012, 02:47 AM
I think Moiraine not taking the throne of Cairhien is hardly worthy of throwing a fit over either... but i dont think its going to happen at all... so inc terez fit lol

I will be interested how many (if any) of your theories prove true. I dont see this one (or many others) as having much chance.. hence why I think you will be throwing a couple fits anyway ;)
My theories have been wrong before and I don't throw fits over them, and I don't see why you would assume that I would. This one is different.

Terez
06-20-2012, 02:47 AM
Just to interject a quick point, I think Moiraine will throw a fit if she does end up ruling Cairhien. But maybe she's changed enough for it to suit her. Myself, I doubt it.
Why do you doubt it?

Ieyasu
06-20-2012, 02:58 AM
Why do you doubt it?

I doubt it because of her feelings in New Spring. Perhaps she will "get over it" when she sees Elayne on a throne as a AS and no riots/wars starting over it, but that is only one reason I doubt it.

My main reason for doubting it is that Moiraine is with Thom now, and neither of them are homebodies. I see much traveling and work to do if either or both survive TG...and I am finally hoping for some good guy deaths in AMOL. I want carnage on the good guy side, and I wouldn't take it badly if Moiraine actually dies this time. Then again, I didnt have a problem with the damsel in distress nor did I think her captivity or rescue lessened her in any way (as many other people do) Point being, I hope she dies (along with plenty of other big name good guys) and barring that, I dont see her giving up her traveling ways, especially not with a gleeman warder/lover.

EDIT:
Besides I think Elayne is going to hold on to Cairhien anyway, making it a moot point for Moiraine even if she does survive... I am not sure I have read anything more than you wanting Moiraine to rule Cairhien, how exactly do you explain Elaye passing that throne over to her? she just says "OMG MOIRAINE YOU ARE BACK!!! IVE HEARD SO MUCH ABOUT YOU & YOU ARE AWESOMESAUCE PLEASE COME LEAD ONE OF MY COUNTRIES FOR ME!!!! IVE MISSED YOU SOOOO MUCH SINCE THOSE FEW DAYS WE HUNG OUT TOGETHER IN TEAR!!"

How exactly do you think Elayne will come to relinquish her Sunthrone for Moiraine anyway?

Terez
06-20-2012, 03:07 AM
I doubt it because of her feelings in New Spring. Perhaps she will "get over it" when she sees Elayne on a throne as a AS and no riots/wars starting over it, but that is only one reason I doubt it.
Her feelings in New Spring were more complex than most seem to realize. Her main reasons for not wanting to take the throne are irrelevant now.

My main reason for doubting it is that Moiraine is with Thom now, and neither of them are homebodies.
Thom is a Court Bard; I can't see why you think he would be uncomfortable staying in one place when he did it for years in Caemlyn with no problems.

I see much traveling
This is so cliché it makes me want to puke.

Besides I think Elayne is going to hold on to Cairhien anyway, making it a moot point for Moiraine even if she does survive... I am not sure I have read anything more than you wanting Moiraine to rule Cairhien, how exactly do you explain Elaye passing that throne over to her? she just says "OMG MOIRAINE YOU ARE BACK!!! IVE HEARD SO MUCH ABOUT YOU & YOU ARE AWESOMESAUCE PLEASE COME LEAD ONE OF MY COUNTRIES FOR ME!!!!"
Elayne only agreed to take the Sun Throne as a favor to Rand; it would never have occurred to her otherwise. And I don't think it's an accident that it was put off for so long, either. Or that she has not yet had a coronation.

Ieyasu
06-20-2012, 03:21 AM
Her feelings in New Spring were more complex than most seem to realize. Her main reasons for not wanting to take the throne are irrelevant now.

Hense why I put this as only a Lesser reason...


Thom is a Court Bard; I can't see why you think he would be uncomfortable staying in one place when he did it for years in Caemlyn with no problems.

Thom was a court bard, and he lost that position because he ran off to handle something else (owen) and talked shit to the queen when he came home.

I do not know why you seem to think the fact that he stopped traveling to stick around Andor for a couple years before moving on again is indicative that he will ever settle down in any one place for long... Can you explain to me why staying in Caemlyn a few years before resuming his traveling ways some how means he may settle down somewhere else permenantly?


This is so cliché it makes me want to puke.


A woman who has spent over 20 years traveling just on one blue quest? You think she will settle down now? I do not see anything in Moiraine to indicate that she will suddenly up and stop her traveling ways. I guess you can always have a puking fit when she doesnt get a throne... ;)


Elayne only agreed to take the Sun Throne as a favor to Rand; it would never have occurred to her otherwise. And I don't think it's an accident that it was put off for so long, either. Or that she has not yet had a coronation.

I do not agree with this at all. Elayne took the Sun throne on her own, just as she took the Lion throne. whats the quote she had about the sun throne? Her exact positions was made clear when she said she has some claim to the Sun throne and will make her claim if she chooses to, not because Rand hands it to her... Exactly the same thing she said about Andor. How can you say she only took it as a favor to Rand? She made her own claim and TOOK that throne just as she made her claim and TOOK the lion throne.

She did not want to even give Perrin lands she hasnt controlled in generations, I do not see her giving Moiraine an entire throne. At this point she has already accepted the throne, has already swapped lands and titles with some nobles on both sides of the boarders etc... can you please explain to me how you see her passing her throne to Moiraine? You have not explained how you propose this to happen...

Terez
06-20-2012, 03:52 AM
Thom was a court bard, and he lost that position because he ran off to handle something else (owen) and talked shit to the queen when he came home.
No, he's still a Court Bard. He's Elayne's, in both Caemlyn and Cairhien.

I do not know why you seem to think the fact that he stopped traveling to stick around Andor for a couple years before moving on again is indicative that he will ever settle down in any one place for long...I don't see why you believe he has an urge to travel that isn't rooted in his attempt to stay ahead of the warrants for his arrest. I can provide evidence that he has no problem staying in one place, for many years in Caemlyn, and again in Tear when Moiraine had to root him out bodily. In fact, Moiraine thinks it's funny (and arrogance) that he kept his own name when he was so well-known in Caemlyn. Furthermore, a Court-Bard gets to travel with his Queen, and even did in the days before Traveling when it required weeks or months of riding on a horse to get anywhere.

A woman who has spent over 20 years traveling just on one blue quest? You think she will settle down now?Moiraine was never the one with an urge for traveling; that was Siuan. Why wouldn't she settle down? Her quest was important, and she fulfilled it, but ruling a great nation is important too, if for no other reason than to keep it from becoming a province of Andor. And there are plenty of clues along the way that, no matter how ashamed she is of her House and its black name, she does care about Cairhien. In fact, her shame shows that she cares.

I do not see anything in Moiraine to indicate that she will suddenly up and stop her traveling ways.To quote you..."Obvious troll is obvious." ;)

I do not agree with this at all. Elayne took the Sun throne on her own, just as she took the Lion throne.She took it by her own right, which is a very important distinction. I like distinctions. She would have never taken it if Rand didn't feel like he needed her to do it.

She did not want to even give Perrin lands she hasnt controlled in generationsIndeed, and that is a problem, the way I see it.

I do not see her giving Moiraine an entire throne.I think that Elayne has never wanted anything more than to rule Andor. She is Andoran, and she always will be in her heart. Perhaps the Cairhienin don't deserve one of their own, but the word 'deserve' can take on whole new connotations in the context of Moiraine and Thom ruling Cairhien. Because it is, after all, a joint monarchy. ;)

At this point she has already accepted the throneThere has been no coronation, and again, I don't believe that's an accident.

has already swapped lands and titles with some nobles on both sides of the boarders etc...I suspect that Moiraine will have a problem with that. Just a suspicion, though; that could go down several ways.

can you please explain to me how you see her passing her throne to Moiraine? You have not explained how you propose this to happen...I shouldn't have to. There are several scenarios that come to mind, all of them believable. It just takes a little imagination.

fionwe1987
06-20-2012, 04:07 AM
I'm not seeing Queen Moiriane Damdored either. Most simply because I really don't see Moiraine wanting to spend the rest of her long life ruling. The great adventure of her life will be done post LB. I think, like Siuan, Moiraine too wants to take pleasure in life after the LB. I'm having a hard time picturing her ruling Cairhein, because its bound to be the most boring job for her. Do you really see her having patience to deal with the sneaky Game of Houses obsessed Cairheinin nobility? Do you see Thom wanting to work on that?

Moiraine is headed the Cadsuane route. Romp through adventures. She may offer Mat aid in the recapture of Seanchan. More likely, she may take it upon herself to hunt out the remaining Darkfriends. Or help rebuild Malkier.

The last seems most likely to me. Whether Lan survives aMoL or not, Malkier just came back to life. And both Nynaeve and Moiraine will want it rebuilt in memory of Lan if he dies, or help him rebuild it if he survives.

Or maybe she and Siuan will cook up some other plans for how they want to live out life. Travel to Shara like they dreamed of as Accepted, maybe?

Terez
06-20-2012, 04:09 AM
I really don't see Moiraine wanting to spend the rest of her long life ruling.
She doesn't have to; presumably she can have children.

Do you really see her having patience to deal with the sneaky Game of Houses obsessed Cairheinin nobility? Do you see Thom wanting to work on that?
Both of them do it in their sleep; I highly doubt either of them would have difficulty navigating those waters. Both of them together are unstoppable.

fionwe1987
06-20-2012, 04:18 AM
She doesn't have to; presumably she can have children.
And...? Do you really see Moiraine actually taking the throne, giving to her kids in some years, and then not worrying? If she takes it, she'll consider it her responsibility till she dies, whether she renounces the throne or not. And a queen who gives up her throne can be a destabilizing force, especially if she disagrees with how her great-great grandson is doing the job.

Both of them do it in their sleep; I highly doubt either of them would have difficulty navigating those waters. Both of them together are unstoppable.
The question was never if they can. The question is would they want to. After literally facing the Dark One, do you really think Moiraine is going to have any patience for petty politics?

One of Moiraine's big reasons for rejecting the throne before was that she knew it would put her in a position where she'd have to play the Game. She's excellent at it, but she has never shown an interest in playing it. She clearly despises it. Will she embrace it after the life she's lead up to now?

Terez
06-20-2012, 04:41 AM
And...? Do you really see Moiraine actually taking the throne, giving to her kids in some years, and then not worrying?
Yes.

I started a new thread on General; please divert all Moiraine discussion there. Thanks.

jana
06-20-2012, 06:02 AM
She gave him a pardon for both countries for any crimes past and present... tho i think his comment about Elayne's pardon (wonder who told her...) was off-based. I dont think anyone really knows what happened to Galledrile except Thom, as shortly after (and as a result of) that assassination the country erupted into civil war until Rand pacified them.

I think she found out in Tear from Moiraine, even though there's no way she found out in Tear from Moiraine, because the whole trip to Tanchico she thinks Thom is some random gleeman. Not a crazy-arse gleeman who murders kings of Cairhien.

Terez
06-20-2012, 08:37 AM
See, I KNEW that Tai'daishar was a stallion. Apparently, Rand is so manly that after he rode Kiruna's gelding for a while, its parts were restored.
Tai'daishar was a sight to stare at, a sleek black stallion with a massive chest, a horse that drew attention, yet he had chosen to ride the animal anyway. If the Forsaken could find him as easily as they had at Algarin's manor house, there was little point to hiding.
The big, fiery-eyed black gelding he had ridden back from Dumai’s Wells had been brought out for him, with a high-cantled saddle all worked in gold and a crimson saddlecloth embroidered with the disc of black-and-white at each corner. The trappings suited the animal, and his name. Tai'daishar; in the Old Tongue, Lord of Glory. Horse and trappings both suited the Dragon Reborn.

Terez
06-20-2012, 08:52 AM
And yet Rand didn't seem to feel the same about Lord Brend's soldiers, when the Legion of the Dragon took them in, and their leader tried to kill him.

You might call that another pairing of clues, since Rand defeats Sammael right after this, and the bit with the Legion is in the beginning of Rand's arc in TPOD.

A difference could be that the White Lions were Rahvin's personal force, whereas what you call Lord Brend's soldiers were just regular Illianer conscripts. Led, of course, by officers hand picked by Brend, but we'll ignore that detail for now.
I missed this comment earlier. Just wanted to point out, that's probably not true. Brend would have had time to recruit his own men into Illian's army, and this gathering was ten times as large as any others they came across. Most of the rest of the army disintegrated. There's no reason to believe that only the officers were Brend's men, and plenty of reason to suspect otherwise.