PDA

View Full Version : Sorilea: Is She a Darkfriend?


Pages : [1] 2

Terez
05-31-2012, 03:16 PM
I have picked over Sorilea's lone POV over and over since TGS came out, trying to determine what RJ was trying to tell us with it. I can't believe it took me—us—so long.

Hurrying along the dusk-covered street by the great stone house where the Aes Sedai were, Sorilea could barely sense them still channeling inside. She could only just sense it because she could only just channel at all, but that was not why she ignored it. They had been channeling day and night in there since their arrival; none of the Wise Ones wasted thought on why any longer. Sorilea certainly had more important matters to think of now. Back at the treekiller’s palace, the Maidens were beginning to grow itchy over Rand al’Thor, muttering that the Car’a’carn would have some explaining to do when he returned this time. Sorilea had lived a great deal longer than any of those Maidens, longer than any other Wise One, weak in the Power or not, and she was uneasy. Like most men, Rand al’Thor went when he wished, where he wished – men were like cats in that – but this time, at the same time he was flitting off, Min had vanished somewhere between the tents and the palace. Sorilea did not like coincidences, no matter how many surrounded the Car’a’carn. Wrapping her shawl against a sudden feel of chill in her bones, she hurried on toward the tents.
She realized that Min disappeared between the tents and the palace. In other words, she realized Min never reached the palace at all...and yet she apparently told no one. No one knew Rand was gone until Berelain found his sword, and if they'd known about Min, they would have known about Rand.

Does anyone still wonder, now?

Heinz
05-31-2012, 03:46 PM
I remember wondering why she didn't say anything to anyone, but figured it was both the Aiel not trusting to tell Wetlanders anything and part of RJ's recurring theme of people not telling each other anything that might constitute useful information.

I'm still not certain it isn't part of that, or that this POV in LoC tells us much of anything new in hindsight of tGS. We know the Forsaken/Chosen do not act in unison, much less Darkfriends. We don't really know Sorilea's master and game yet, or how much she actually knew. Her reaction later once Berelain does find the sword, and actions on the road to Dumai's Wells and at the Wells to bring the Wise Ones into the fight, seem to suggest her end goal is different from those Darkfriends involved in the kidnapping.

In my last read-through, with tGS knowledge and our theories/comments posted here, I took this and assumed that Sorilea was one of those working for a more distant end-goal with Rand related to the Last Battle and his destiny to face the Great Lord.

(I also half-considered the idea that Sorilea was a Verin-like Darkfriend, but have little to back that thought process up and do not know how I'd feel about it. It was mostly born out of wondering how such a respected and deep-rooted Aiel WO could truly be working for the Shadow.)

Terez
05-31-2012, 03:51 PM
I remember wondering why she didn't say anything to anyone, but figured it was both the Aiel not trusting to tell Wetlanders anything and part of RJ's recurring theme of people not telling each other anything that might constitute useful information.
Except that they should have had a clue before then that he had not left of his own free will, and clearly they did not have a clue.

WinespringBrother
05-31-2012, 03:54 PM
I have picked over Sorilea's lone POV over and over since TGS came out, trying to determine what RJ was trying to tell us with it. I can't believe it took me—us—so long.


She realized that Min disappeared between the tents and the palace. In other words, she realized Min never reached the palace at all...and yet she apparently told no one. No one knew Rand was gone until Berelain found his sword, and if they'd known about Min, they would have known about Rand.

Does anyone still wonder, now?

I saw nothing sinister in that, the Wise Ones just keep their own counsel about everything, whether important or not. And Sorilea probably keeps her own counsel even from other Wise Ones.

Davian93
05-31-2012, 04:07 PM
Sorilea probably reports to the Naeblis alone...and helping bring the Aiel WOs into the battle definitely helps the lord of chaos rule.

Terez
05-31-2012, 04:15 PM
I saw nothing sinister in that
This from the guy who argued that Taim wasn't a Darkfriend.

the Wise Ones just keep their own counsel about everything, whether important or not. And Sorilea probably keeps her own counsel even from other Wise Ones.
If they had known Min had disappeared, they would have had good reason to believe that Rand had not left of his own free will, and clearly they did not until Berelain found the sword. If they had, don't you think they would have been even more suspicious when the Aes Sedai left three days later? Don't you think they would have sent spears to at least keep an eye on them? But they waited for three more days as if nothing had happened out of the ordinary.

WinespringBrother
05-31-2012, 04:48 PM
This from the guy who argued that Taim wasn't a Darkfriend.

One has nothing to do with the other ;)

Anyway, I never said Taim wasn't sinister, but that fact doesn't make someone a follower of the Dark One.

Terez on Twitter: People just don't want to believe that Sorilea is a Darkfriend. There is more evidence against her than there ever was against Weiramon.

This from someone who didn't believe that Sheriam was evil??? :D j/k

The same POV reveals Sorilea apparently feeling fear at Min's unexplained disappearance, an odd reaction for a presumed darkfriend, notwithstanding the fact that she was obviously ignorant of Rand's kidnapping in a darkfriend plot. And I think Sorilea's silence was in character with the Aiel not asking untrusted wetlanders for help in any issues, however critical, regarding Rand.

Terez
05-31-2012, 05:04 PM
One has nothing to do with the other ;)
I'd say they have quite a bit to do with each other.

This from someone who didn't believe that Sheriam was evil??? :D j/k
I actually did. I argued it for a while with Callandor but eventually gave up because I didn't really care if she was Black or not. Sometimes after that I would take up his argument, but most of the time when it came up I addressed it neutrally.

The same POV reveals Sorilea apparently feeling fear at Min's unexplained disappearance, an odd reaction for a presumed darkfriend
How so? There are a hundred reasons why it would have made even a Darkfriend nervous.

notwithstanding the fact that she was obviously ignorant of Rand's kidnapping in a darkfriend plot.
Since when do Darkfriends get told more than they absolutely need to know?

And I think Sorilea's silence was in character with the Aiel not asking untrusted wetlanders for help in any issues, however critical, regarding Rand.
They had good reason to trust Perrin, and Perrin assumed Min had disappeared with Rand.

Terez
05-31-2012, 05:32 PM
I found an example of me making Callandor's arguments (and some of my own), but it would be harder for me to find me arguing with Callandor about it, since it's on Yuku and the search is broken. Also, Google doesn't like to search Yuku either; it keeps giving me vbulletin results. I definitely went back and forth on that one, though.

fionwe1987
05-31-2012, 06:31 PM
She realized that Min disappeared between the tents and the palace. In other words, she realized Min never reached the palace at all...and yet she apparently told no one. No one knew Rand was gone until Berelain found his sword, and if they'd known about Min, they would have known about Rand.
They all knew Rand was gone. they thought he had Travelled on his own. Nandera thought he would be gone for a few hours, but it took six days, and Berelain finding his sword, before anyone got suspicious. In Perrin's PoV, he says that Min had either gone with Rand or was with the Aiel. Now, the Aiel obviously knew Min had left them to go to the Palace. They probably assumed she met Rand half-way and went with him.
Does anyone still wonder, now?
I still do. Sorelia's actions are entirely unconvincing for a Darkfriend.

The Unreasoner
05-31-2012, 07:00 PM
Regarding your twitter post on Sorilea:

Verin, probably the most effective investigator of Darkfriends in the Third Age, Compelled Sorilea. Her form allows her to ask questions and get a true response. Do you really think that she would have left a Darkfriend of Sorilea's power/influence alive when she took off?

Maybe she had explicit orders to leave Sorilea unharmed, but she could still plant a psychological block, or send a letter to Rand (or another, maybe one with no qualms on killing women) post-mortem.

Terez
05-31-2012, 07:41 PM
They all knew Rand was gone.
lol. At least Deadsy will get a laugh out of this, if no one else will.

GonzoTheGreat
06-01-2012, 04:45 AM
She realized that Min disappeared between the tents and the palace. In other words, she realized Min never reached the palace at all...and yet she apparently told no one. No one knew Rand was gone until Berelain found his sword, and if they'd known about Min, they would have known about Rand.
As had already been hinted at, Rand might have picked up Min to go wherever he'd gone. But they did not think he would have left his sword, so only then was it clear to them that he hadn't gone voluntarily.

jana
06-01-2012, 04:56 AM
They all knew Rand was gone. they thought he had Travelled on his own. Nandera thought he would be gone for a few hours, but it took six days, and Berelain finding his sword, before anyone got suspicious. In Perrin's PoV, he says that Min had either gone with Rand or was with the Aiel. Now, the Aiel obviously knew Min had left them to go to the Palace. They probably assumed she met Rand half-way and went with him.
Knowing Rand was gone is irrelevant. It's that Min disappeared that was weird. I like to think the Aiel know enough about Travelling to know he's not going to Travel into the middle of the city and risk splitting someone in half just to save the hour or so it would take Min to get back to him. I could be wrong, but even if I am wrong, it would still be strange for the Aiel to think he wouldn't wait a short time for her to return and then Travel with her from the palace.

You say Berelain found his sword before anyone got suspicious. But in this very thread it's shown that Sorilea was suspicious. She felt uneasy and her bones were chilled.

I still do. Sorelia's actions are entirely unconvincing for a Darkfriend.
I'm not as convinced as Terez that she's a darkfriend, but I haven't seen any good arguments against it being suspicious that Sorilea told no one.

fionwe1987
06-01-2012, 10:07 AM
Knowing Rand was gone is irrelevant. It's that Min disappeared that was weird. I like to think the Aiel know enough about Travelling to know he's not going to Travel into the middle of the city and risk splitting someone in half just to save the hour or so it would take Min to get back to him. I could be wrong, but even if I am wrong, it would still be strange for the Aiel to think he wouldn't wait a short time for her to return and then Travel with her from the palace.
He doesn't have to Travel into the middle of the city, though. Any number of basements for him to go to first. And I'm not the only one who thinks he might have done that, as I'll show.

You say Berelain found his sword before anyone got suspicious. But in this very thread it's shown that Sorilea was suspicious. She felt uneasy and her bones were chilled.
Fair enough. But answer me this. How do you think Sorelia figured out Min disappeared between the Aiel camp and the Palace?

Either she herself saw Min leave the camps, or she asked around and was told Min left the camps. Then she asked around the palace, of the Aiel guards, the servants, etc. if Min had come there. And they said no, she hadn't. Which means she went around speaking to quite a few people about this. How did she expect it to remain a secret? Especially since we know Perrin knew Min was not in the palace:

A few hours, Nandera had said, but Rand had been gone six days now. Min had either gone with him or was staying with the Aiel. And no one seemed to know anything. Except for the one called Sorilea, the Wise Ones were evasive as any Aes Sedai when Perrin managed to corner one; Sorilea told him bluntly to tend to his wife and keep his nose out of affairs that did not concern wetlanders.

So Perrin knew Min was not in the Palace, but he thought she may either be with the Aiel, or had gone with Rand (which means he also assumed Rand Traveled to the "middle of the city" and got her before going elsewhere).

More importantly, are you telling me that women like Amys and Bair did not think to ask where Min was for six days?

I'm not as convinced as Terez that she's a darkfriend, but I haven't seen any good arguments against it being suspicious that Sorilea told no one.
I'm yet to see a convincing argument that Sorelia did indeed tell no one. She was uneasy about this. The other WO might also have known, and like Sorelia, were uneasy, but didn't say anything because it wasn't proof of anything.

And given Sorelia's actions when she did find out Rand was kidnapped, exactly why would she be keeping Min's disappearance secret? She was clearly worried that Rand was missing in her PoV. Which means she didn't know anything about the kidnap plot, and given that she moved to thwart it the moment she did, wouldn't she have discussed Min's coincidental disappearance with the WO when Rand's disappearance was being discussed?

Terez
06-01-2012, 10:39 AM
The fact that Perrin assumed Min had gone with Rand was what made me post in the first place. Clearly he had no idea she had never made it back to the Palace at all.

fionwe1987
06-01-2012, 11:04 AM
The fact that Perrin assumed Min had gone with Rand was what made me post in the first place. Clearly he had no idea she had never made it back to the Palace at all.
Wait. He knew she wasn't in the Palace, so he didn't know she didn't make it to the Palace? Your logic is astounding El... uh, Terez. :p

fionwe1987
06-01-2012, 11:12 AM
The next morning, the rest of the Wise Ones still shifted from group to group, but before the long column had covered three miles, Perrin realized that all centered on Sorilea now. Now and then she and Amys went off to one side of the road by themselves to talk, but there were no more glares. Had they been wolves, Perrin would have said a challenge to the pack leader had been defeated, but by their scents, Sorilea accepted Amys as almost an equal now, which did not fit wolves at all.

So, let's say Sorelia is a Darkfriend. Amys strongly opposes her position on something, and they have a major argument. Sorelia wins the argument. Shouldn't she be feeling contempt and satisfaction if she is a Darkfriend? Shoudn't she be furious Amys is almost her equal now? Why in the world would she actually see Amys as almost equal? Which Darkfriend's character profile does this fit?

GonzoTheGreat
06-01-2012, 11:31 AM
Wait. He knew she wasn't in the Palace, so he didn't know she didn't make it to the Palace? Your logic is astounding El... uh, Terez. :p
As far as Perrin knew, Min might have made it to the palace and left from there together with Rand.
Then she wouldn't have been in the palace for days, but she would have been there for a short while after leaving the Aiel camp.

Why in the world would she actually see Amys as almost equal? Which Darkfriend's character profile does this fit?
Lanfear's. She is also willing to see Rand/LTT as "almost equal" after all.

Terez
06-01-2012, 11:32 AM
Wait. He knew she wasn't in the Palace, so he didn't know she didn't make it to the Palace? Your logic is astounding El... uh, Terez. :p
I'll try to make it clearer for you. He knew she wasn't in the Palace, but apparently did not know that she was not in the Palace when Rand was taken. Therefore he assumed that she had gone with Rand. Sorilea knew better. She knew something was up, and she clearly did not share that knowledge with anyone. If any of the Aiel had the slightest reason to suspect, they would not have waited six days to search Rand's chambers for clues. (Berelain is the one who did that, because she had some reason to be suspicious.)

Terez
06-01-2012, 11:36 AM
So, let's say Sorelia is a Darkfriend. Amys strongly opposes her position on something, and they have a major argument. Sorelia wins the argument. Shouldn't she be feeling contempt and satisfaction if she is a Darkfriend? Shoudn't she be furious Amys is almost her equal now? Why in the world would she actually see Amys as almost equal? Which Darkfriend's character profile does this fit?
Why should she be furious? She won. She was content because Amys had accepted the situation. She even made a water oath with her, apparently, though we don't know what that was about. We do know what they were arguing over, though—whether or not to break custom and use the Power in battle. Sorilea won that argument concerning Aviendha at the Battle of Cairhien, and she won it again with Amys. Let the Lord of Chaos rule...

fionwe1987
06-01-2012, 11:51 AM
Lanfear's. She is also willing to see Rand/LTT as "almost equal" after all.
So Sorelia is madly in love with Amys for her great political power and fame, and some day in the future, will be asking, "Which is Rhuarc"? :p

I'll try to make it clearer for you. He knew she wasn't in the Palace, but apparently did not know that she was not in the Palace when Rand was taken. Therefore he assumed that she had gone with Rand. Sorilea knew better. She knew something was up, and she clearly did not share that knowledge with anyone. If any of the Aiel had the slightest reason to suspect, they would not have waited six days to search Rand's chambers for clues. (Berelain is the one who did that, because she had some reason to be suspicious.)
Perrin thought Min had gone with Rand, or was in the Aiel tents. Why would he think that latter if he thought Min might have been in the Palace?

And your argument about Sorelia makes no sense. Why did she keep it secret? She was more than ready to go rescue Rand when she found out it was kidnap. If she suspected it earlier, why not say it, rouse up the Aiel, and go hunting the AS?

Why should she be furious? She won. She was content because Amys had accepted the situation. She even made a water oath with her, apparently, though we don't know what that was about. We do know what they were arguing over, though—whether or not to break custom and use the Power in battle. Sorilea won that argument concerning Aviendha at the Battle of Cairhien, and she won it again with Amys. Let the Lord of Chaos rule...
How does getting Wise Ones into battle help the Shadow in the long run? Short term, sure. Long term, you just added 6000 fighting channelers to your opposition.

And I'm still not seeing a reason for her to accept Amys as her equal. Which Darkfriend likes to give away power like that?

The Unreasoner
06-01-2012, 12:00 PM
You know I still think my Verin point is stronger than any 'evidence' against Sorilea, but this one is easy:

Sorilea kept it quiet for the same reason she wanted to handle Rand's return so delicately. People would flip out. And when the source of their flippedness is a ta'veren as strong as Rand...who knows? Maybe Bruan kneels to Radhanan, or Indirian assassinates Elaida.

Terez
06-01-2012, 12:10 PM
Perrin thought Min had gone with Rand, or was in the Aiel tents. Why would he think that latter if he thought Min might have been in the Palace?
Why would he have thought Min might have gone with Rand if he knew that she wasn't in the Palace when she left? Only Sorilea knew that, and she didn't tell anyone.

How does getting Wise Ones into battle help the Shadow in the long run?"Ji’e’toh is the core of the Aiel. We are ji’e’toh."

And I'm still not seeing a reason for her to accept Amys as her equal. Which Darkfriend likes to give away power like that?You apparently missed the word 'almost'. Gonzo didn't miss it, of course, but I expect more of Gonzo than most people, despite the fact he likes to make a joke of everything.

Terez
06-01-2012, 12:12 PM
Sorilea kept it quiet for the same reason she wanted to handle Rand's return so delicately. People would flip out. And when the source of their flippedness is a ta'veren as strong as Rand...who knows? Maybe Bruan kneels to Radhanan, or Indirian assassinates Elaida.
Sorilea could have had a few trusted people search Rand's apartments, at least. She could have had one of the Wise Ones talk to Melaine in her dreams to see if Rand was in Caemlyn. But she did nothing until Berelain revealed he was gone.

The Unreasoner
06-01-2012, 12:29 PM
Sorilea could have had a few trusted people search Rand's apartments, at least. She could have had one of the Wise Ones talk to Melaine in her dreams to see if Rand was in Caemlyn. But she did nothing until Berelain revealed he was gone.
Well, I don't know if she really did 'nothing'. But even if she didn't: Rand takes off all of the time, I get the feeling that the Pattern made her suffer a case of temporary narrow-mindedness and mental dulling to get its own agenda across. In this case, the Asha'man's coming out party/the beginning of Elaida's fall/the Shaido falling apart/and the WO going to battle. Some elements of chaos are apparrently 'good' as far as the Wheel is concerned (Faile being kidnapped). It's the same sort of a lack in mental function many Egwene bashers see in the SAS. Even Siuan, who used to be so awesome, had her mental abilities reduced in order to better serve the Pattern (Egwene's rise).

Terez
06-01-2012, 12:35 PM
Well, I don't know if she really did 'nothing'.
There's no reason to believe she did anything.

But even if she didn't: Rand takes off all of the time
This is about Min disappearing.

I get the feeling that the Pattern made her suffer a case of temporary narrow-mindedness and mental dulling to get its own agenda across.
That clearly did not happen. She was worried, and did not seem to think it very plausibly coincidental.

In this case, the Asha'man's coming out party/the beginning of Elaida's fall/the Shaido falling apart/and the WO going to battle. Some elements of chaos are apparrently 'good' as far as the Wheel is concerned (Faile being kidnapped).
The Wheel uses Darkfriend plans to its advantage just like everything else.

fionwe1987
06-01-2012, 12:36 PM
Why would he have thought Min might have gone with Rand if he knew that she wasn't in the Palace when she left?
Because he hadn't seen her in six days. The only two options were that she was with Rand, or with the Aiel, and Perrin stated both those options. He did not know for sure Min was with Rand.

Only Sorilea knew that, and she didn't tell anyone.
I'm still waiting for evidence here. Why didn't Amys think to check on Min? She's far from a fool, and Min missing would set alarm bells ringing in her head. Unless Sorelia had already told her...

"Ji’e’toh is the core of the Aiel. We are ji’e’toh."
That's all very nice, but the Aiel are still fine despite the Wise Ones entering battle. No one has shown particular shock at that fact, and Rand has regularly used Wise Ones in battle in Illian, against the Seanchan.
You apparently missed the word 'almost'.
I didn't. I omitted it in that sentence because I typed it out in a rush. I still don't see why Sorelia would be okay with anyone "almost" becoming her equal. Putting up appearances is one thing, but we get this from Perrin smelling her, which means its real.

And you still haven't given a motive for why Sorelia would keep Min's disappearance a secret. If her aim is to have Wise Ones fight Aes Sedai and thus destroy the Aiel, why not hasten that by investigating Min's disappearance?

ETA: Agreed with Unreasoner on the Verin thing. Verin looked very hard at Cadsuane. I find it beyond unrealistic that she didn't take the opportunity and question Sorelia on her allegiances when she compelled her.

Also:

"There must be two or three hundred women channeling down there, if not more." Kiruna, lying beside
him, sounded impressed. Sorilea, beyond the Green sister, certainly looked impressed. The Wise One smelled
concerned; not afraid, but troubled.

If a ji'e'toh destroying battle was what Sorelia wanted, wouldn't she have also smelled eager here? Her evil Darkfriend schemes are soon going to be successful, or so she should be thinking...

Terez
06-01-2012, 12:57 PM
Oh dear god, this has gotten ridiculous.

fionwe1987
06-01-2012, 01:12 PM
Oh dear god, this has gotten ridiculous.
Its certainly funny. You dance around important points quite well.

Terez
06-01-2012, 01:22 PM
I don't dance around them at all. You, on the other hand, apparently don't understand my points well enough to dance around them no matter how you try.

Terez
06-01-2012, 01:27 PM
I will try one more time. If this conversation doesn't take a logical turn soon, though, I give up.
Because he hadn't seen her in six days. The only two options were that she was with Rand, or with the Aiel, and Perrin stated both those options. He did not know for sure Min was with Rand.
This is exactly what I have been trying to tell you.


I'm still waiting for evidence here. Why didn't Amys think to check on Min? She's far from a fool, and Min missing would set alarm bells ringing in her head. Unless Sorelia had already told her...
Because she, unlike Sorilea, had no reason to believe that Min did not go with Rand. Sorilea is the one who knows that Min never made it back to the Palace. Clearly she didn't tell anyone.

The Unreasoner
06-01-2012, 02:57 PM
There's no reason to believe she did anything.
Again, not sure it matters.

This is about Min disappearing.
I just don't think Sorilea could have ruled out the possibility that Min went to a stable by the gate and met Rand there, who Traveled from the Palace.

That clearly did not happen. She was worried, and did not seem to think it very plausibly coincidental.
It's possible that those are not connected. She could be worried/furious if Rand just took off to screw around (like he did with min in ACoS). Not a coincidence, she's angry because Rand is slacking in his duty; but there is no sinister underlying cause.

As for the selective blindness and inaction:
I'm not sure you can say that it clearly didn't happen. There are tons of cases where a character doesn't make the obviously correct move even given the information he has at the time. Oftentimes, this bizarre mix of stupidity and inaction prove to serve the purposes of the Wheel. Even with Sorilea knowing what she knew, the raw 'pressure' of the Wheel may have silenced her mouth and stayed her hand. Maybe subconsciously, maybe by having her consciously believe that Rand apparently abandoning the Aiel again would be a political disaster.

The Wheel uses Darkfriend plans to its advantage just like everything else.
Sure. But that doesn't make Sorilea a Darkfriend, does it?
Oh dear god, this has gotten ridiculous.
I hope you don't mean me. I thought I was being uncharacteristically reasonable. If you mean fionwe, sure. I have him blocked, actually. It's like playing checkers with a kid that keeps changing the rules so he won't lose.
Because she, unlike Sorilea, had no reason to believe that Min did not go with Rand. Sorilea is the one who knows that Min never made it back to the Palace. Clearly she didn't tell anyone.
I still think there are a few innocuous explanations here. And the biggest point for me is Verin left Sorilea alive.

But to clarify, I don't even think Taim is a Darkfriend, really

fionwe1987
06-01-2012, 03:09 PM
I will try one more time. If this conversation doesn't take a logical turn soon, though, I give up.
Yeah. I'm at that point too. So lets give this one last try.
This is exactly what I have been trying to tell you.
Let's take this step by step:
1) On day 1, Perrin hears from Nandera that the Maidens are angry because Rand left without them. She says he's expected back in a few hours.
2) On that same day, some time before, Rand sends Sulin to Sorelia's tent to fetch Min:
Sulin began doing up his buttons. It was faster to put his hands down and let her. "Min will come when she comes, if she comes. Sorilea
will be done with her in the tents when she is done." Suddenly she peered up at him sharply. "What do you want with her? You hardly want your bottom pinched while the Aes Sedai are here." There was no hidden smile this afternoon. "My Lord Dragon."
...
He moved away again, but Sulin followed, working at the buttons. "Sulin, I want you to go to Sorilea's tent. Find Min and bring her here. No questions, Sulin. Just do it."
She managed to smile and grind her teeth at the same time, a remarkable sight. "As my Lord Dragon commands." A smooth curtsy spread red-and-white skirts wide and lowered her face halfway to the floor.
...
She looked him straight in the eye for a moment, the Sulin of old, if with longer hair, but just as quickly the mask returned.
"If my Lord Dragon will excuse me, I must run if I am to obey his command." Which she did, lifting her skirts to her knees and darting out of the room. Rand shook his head and did up the last buttons himself.

3) In the same chapter, we have Sorelia's PoV. This happened before Day 3, when the Aes Sedai left.
4) On Day 6, Perrin says Min was either with Rand, or among the Aiel. That he doesn't know she can't be among the Aiel is proof he never knew she left the tents. That he doesn't think she could be in the palace is proof that he knows she never was in the palace, before Rand left. And Perrin has been asking around. The Wise Ones rebuffed him, but he also asked at Rand's school. Which means it is absurd to think he didn't ask around at the palace. Which means he knows Min never came there before Rand left, which means that for him to think Min must have left with Rand, he assumes Rand met her outside the Palace. Which is certainly a feasible idea, despite the objection made that Rand wouldn't open a gateway in the middle of the city.
5) On that same day, Perrin meets Sulin:
Sulin came to the bedchamber door with a pillow in her arms, frowning at Faile and at Perrin. Her scent reminded Perrin of a she-wolf who had taken about all of cubs nipping her tail in play that she could stand. She also smelled worried. And afraid, oddly.

So, Sulin was sent to Sorilea's tent to find Min. Clearly, she wouldn't have found Min. In the same chapter, Sorilea's PoV reveals Min vanished between the tents and the Palace.

So lets figure what happened:

Sulin reaches Sorilea's tent. Sorilea tells her Min left. Sulin says Min never reached the Palace, or figures it out later. Either way, Sulin knows Min is missing. Which is why, unlike the other Maidens, who're angry that Rand left, she is worried and afraid.

The Maidens in particular appeared furious, though Perrin suspected that had nothing to do with Cairhienin women exposing themselves; the Maidens had been more and more cats lashing their tails every day since Rand went.

So Sorilea knows, and Sulin knows. If no one else among the WO knew, you need to explain why Sulin kept quiet. Is Sulin a Darkfriend too?

Because she, unlike Sorilea, had no reason to believe that Min did not go with Rand.
Not even when Sulin told her?
Sorilea is the one who knows that Min never made it back to the Palace. Clearly she didn't tell anyone.
Clearly, this is something you invented.

Terez
06-01-2012, 03:11 PM
I just don't think Sorilea could have ruled out the possibility that Min went to a stable by the gate and met Rand there, who Traveled from the Palace.
Ruled it out? Maybe not entirely, but she knew—Rand said she knew—that Min had to be back in time for his meeting with the Aes Sedai. Sorilea had instructions to make sure she got there, and presumably she actually let her go on time, and Min was accosted on the way there. Sorilea apparently discovered that much on her own. Now, Rand could have met her somewhere and Traveled her in to meet with the Aes Sedai, sure. But why?

It's possible that those are not connected. She could be worried/furious if Rand just took off to screw around (like he did with min in ACoS). Not a coincidence, she's angry because Rand is slacking in his duty; but there is no sinister underlying cause.
In case you missed it:
Hurrying along the dusk-covered street by the great stone house where the Aes Sedai were, Sorilea could barely sense them still channeling inside. She could only just sense it because she could only just channel at all, but that was not why she ignored it. They had been channeling day and night in there since their arrival; none of the Wise Ones wasted thought on why any longer. Sorilea certainly had more important matters to think of now. Back at the treekiller’s palace, the Maidens were beginning to grow itchy over Rand al’Thor, muttering that the Car’a’carn would have some explaining to do when he returned this time. Sorilea had lived a great deal longer than any of those Maidens, longer than any other Wise One, weak in the Power or not, and she was uneasy. Like most men, Rand al’Thor went when he wished, where he wished – men were like cats in that – but this time, at the same time he was flitting off, Min had vanished somewhere between the tents and the palace. Sorilea did not like coincidences, no matter how many surrounded the Car’a’carn. Wrapping her shawl against a sudden feel of chill in her bones, she hurried on toward the tents.

As for the selective blindness and inaction:
I'm not sure you can say that it clearly didn't happen. There are tons of cases where a character doesn't make the obviously correct move even given the information he has at the time. Oftentimes, this bizarre mix of stupidity and inaction prove to serve the purposes of the Wheel. Even with Sorilea knowing what she knew, the raw 'pressure' of the Wheel may have silenced her mouth and stayed her hand. Maybe subconsciously, maybe by having her consciously believe that Rand apparently abandoning the Aiel again would be a political disaster.
This is stretching it quite a bit. Very rarely do characters do things that are entirely out of character for them because of ta'veren, and when they do, the ta'veren is usually in the same room.

Sure. But that doesn't make Sorilea a Darkfriend, does it?
I didn't say it did. But you were putting it forth like it was evidence that she wasn't, because it was all part of the Divine Plan, or something. So was Taim showing up. So was Galina's part. So was Verin's. It's not really relevant.

I hope you don't mean me. I thought I was being uncharacteristically reasonable. If you mean fionwe, sure. I have him blocked, actually. It's like playing checkers with a kid that keeps changing the rules so he won't lose.
There are degrees of ridiculous, certainly, but fionwe is pushing the limits of what I can deal with.

I still think there are a few innocuous explanations here. And the biggest point for me is Verin left Sorilea alive.
Verin left a lot of people alive.

Terez
06-01-2012, 03:34 PM
On Day 6, Perrin says Min was either with Rand, or among the Aiel. That he doesn't know she can't be among the Aiel is proof he never knew she left the tents.
Like I have been telling you all along, Perrin's ignorance is the problem. No one told him.

It's possible that Sorilea learned about it from Sulin, I'll give you that, but Sulin could not act as a Maiden at the time; she was serving her toh as a servant, so apparently she couldn't do anything about it, and might have even been ordered to keep silent. Why not tell Perrin, or anyone else? Bain and Chiad were guarding the doors; did they know that Min was no longer with the Wise Ones? If they knew Min had disappeared mysteriously, why would they not tell Faile? I can't believe that Faile would keep something that important secret from Perrin just because she was angry with him, either.

That he doesn't think she could be in the palace is proof that he knows she never was in the palace, before Rand left.
It just means he knows she's not in the Palace any longer.

fionwe1987
06-01-2012, 03:50 PM
Like I have been telling you all along, Perrin's ignorance is the problem. No one told him.
But, as I, and the Ignorer, have pointed out, Perrin's ignorance doesn't mean Sorilea kept it secret from everyone.
It's possible that Sorilea learned about it from Sulin, I'll give you that, but Sulin could not act as a Maiden at the time; she was serving her toh as a servant, so apparently she couldn't do anything about it, and might have even been ordered to keep silent.
She certainly kept silent in front of the other maidens. What I find impossible to believe, though, is that she obeyed orders to keep this from other Wise Ones. For that, we first have to assume that when Sulin went to the Aiel tents, she went in unobserved and met Sorilea alone. And then... what? She was worried and afraid for Rand, her near-brother, but she kept quiet? That's quite a stretch, isn't it?
Why not tell Perrin, or anyone else?

Here's why:

Except for the one called Sorilea, the Wise
Ones were evasive as any Aes Sedai when Perrin managed to corner one; Sorilea told him bluntly to tend to his wife and keep his nose out of affairs that did not concern wetlanders.
Till they knew Rand was indeed kidnapped, they considered his disappearance an Aiel affair. That's why the Wise Ones refused to talk to Perrin.

Bain and Chiad were guarding the doors; did they know that Min was no longer with the Wise Ones? If they knew Min had disappeared mysteriously, why would they not tell Faile?
They didn't know. If they had known, they'd have told the other maidens, and instead of being angry, the other maidens would have been worried for Rand too, like Sulin.
I can't believe that Faile would keep something that important secret from Perrin just because she was angry with him, either.
No, but the Wise Ones would keep quiet about it. They wouldn't want any panic till they knew for sure. And the Aes Sedai were not the only suspects either. Rand could have left on his own and gotten into trouble too. Till they knew more, they would have kept quiet.

My point has always been that there is no evidence that Sorilea kept this quiet from the other Wise Ones. With the proof that Sulin knew, it becomes well nigh impossible for her to have kept it quiet. If she had, wouldn't Sulin, once she became a maiden again, have grown suspicious?

It just means he knows she's not in the Palace any longer.
But we know he asked around extensively. He had spoken to Bain and Chiad about there being only three AS, so he knew Min wasn't there then. He also knew Min had gone to the Aiel tents, which is why he thinks its possible she's still there.

Now, since Perrin knows Min wasn't there before Rand's meeting with the AS, yet he still suspects she might have gone with Rand wherever he went, he had to have thought that Rand found Min and then went wherever he went. Perrin's thought that Min might be with Rand makes no sense, otherwise.

Now, my point in bringing this up was to answer the argument made that Rand couldn't have found Min anywhere, since he wouldn't open a gateway into the middle of the city. It was argued the Aiel would know this, so they would never think Min had gone with Rand. But clearly, Perrin, who knows about Gateways too, doesn't think its a stretch that Rand found Min before he left Cairhein. So the argument that the Aiel wouldn't think this is false.

The Unreasoner
06-01-2012, 03:50 PM
Perrin's ignorance is the problem.
I hadn't thought of this. It's interesting. Perhaps it was Perrin's ta'vereness that held Sorilea's tongue. He needed to be kept in the dark until all the pieces were in place so that Dumai's Wells would happen. If he left earlier, would he have met the Caemlyn Aes Sedai and the TR men? A thousand things fell into place so that Dumai's Well would occur as it did, and assuming that it served the Pattern in some significant fashion, Perrin's ta'veren could almost certainly cause the needed delay, in this case by holding Sorilea's tongue.


A point on using the OP in battle:
Sorilea's hypothetical 'evil master' could be the school of thought that turns the Aiel into the people seen in Aviendha's vision. Not necessarily the DO.

Terez
06-01-2012, 04:00 PM
No, but the Wise Ones would keep quiet about it.
Why should they? I don't think Amys would, but Amys wasn't in charge, was she? Even if Sorilea did tell them, she apparently also told them to keep it quiet, and whatever excuses she might have given about wetlanders and Aiel business, it still doesn't add up. Many things could have been done, but nothing was done, and those are exactly the kind of excuses you would give if you were just trying to stall long enough to allow Rand's captors to get away.

Terez
06-01-2012, 04:04 PM
I hadn't thought of this. It's interesting. Perhaps it was Perrin's ta'vereness that held Sorilea's tongue.
Like I said earlier, the explanation is a thin one, especially considering all the other evidence that Sorilea is a Darkfriend. Using the Wheel to explain away anything unusual is a very bad WoT debate tactic. It can be used to explain away anything. But apparently religion and PLEs go hand in hand.

fionwe1987
06-01-2012, 04:12 PM
Why should they? I don't think Amys would, but Amys wasn't in charge, was she?
Why wouldn't she? I'm not asking this for the sake of debate. I'm genuinely curious why you think Amys would't want to keep things quiet till they know for sure.
Even if Sorilea did tell them, she apparently also told them to keep it quiet, and whatever excuses she might have given about wetlanders and Aiel business, it still doesn't add up.
So here we come to a change in the debate. It has moved from "Sorilea kept this quiet, so she was a DF", to "She asked others to keep it quiet for unsatisfactory reasons". But "Aiel business" isn't an unsatisfactory reason at all. It only becomes unsatisfactory if you already suspect Sorilea. But you're saying this event heaps suspicion on Soilea being a DF, not that her being a DF changes how we should understand this scene.
Many things could have been done, but nothing was done,
How do we know this?
and those are exactly the kind of excuses you would give if you were just trying to stall long enough to allow Rand's captors to get away.
Now I'm truly confused. You're saying Sorilea kept quiet so Rand's captors could get away. You mean she knew he was kidnapped, and by Aes Sedai? And her motivation in keeping silent was to let him be kidnapped?

Then at last I have an answer from you on her motivation. But it makes no sense. Why would she keep quiet about it if her aim was (as you said) to cause Wise Ones to fight Aes Sedai. Wouldn't a spectacular OP fight in the city serve even better for her goals?

But, of course, we see from her PoV that she doesn't suspect Rand was kidnapped at all. She certainly shows no signs of knowing the Aes Sedai were involved. And lastly, her PoV makes it clear that while Min's disappearance troubles her, she has in no way concluded Min was kidnapped too. In short, everything in her PoV contradicts the possibility that she could have been motivated by wanting to let the AS get away.

Zombie Sammael
06-01-2012, 04:18 PM
Perhaps it was Perrin's ta'vereness that held Sorilea's tongue. He needed to be kept in the dark until all the pieces were in place so that Dumai's Wells would happen.

If Perrin's ta'veren nature had in some way influenced Sorilea to not say something she otherwise would, then she would have thought about it afterwards, in all likelihood. Whenever we see the wheel/pattern/ta'veren cause someone to behave in an unusual way, they are always aware that they are behaving in an unusual way that they otherwise wouldn't. Consider, for instance, the AS swearing to Rand at the end of LOC. So it's highly unlikely that Sorilea or anyone else has been influenced by ta'veren. In fact, I'd go as far as to say ta'veren influence is not subtle; whenever we see it taking place it's always loud and flashy.

I still think there are a few innocuous explanations here. And the biggest point for me is Verin left Sorilea alive.
Verin left a lot of people alive.

Regarding Verin and leaving people alive, it may well be that the Dark Oaths in some way prohibit her from assassinating fellow Darkfriends outside of certain circumstances; compare "except in the last most extreme defence of my life, or that of a warder or another sister" with "except where it serves my own advancement in the Shadow, or the plans of the Great Lord of the Dark or one of the Forsaken", for example. That would still allow the BA to behave in the selfish way the Dark One requires, but both prevent betrayal and ensure they serve his ends.

Terez
06-01-2012, 04:21 PM
Why wouldn't she? I'm not asking this for the sake of debate. I'm genuinely curious why you think Amys would't want to keep things quiet till they know for sure.
I have already spelled out the reasons; there were a number of things they could have done, not least sending scouts (Maidens and siswai'aman to trail the Aes Sedai when they disappeared. They could have confided in Berelain, Rhuarc, Perrin—level heads who would know better than to let word get out—and they could have contacted Melaine in her dreams to see if Rand was in Caemlyn or not.

So here we come to a change in the debate. It has moved from "Sorilea kept this quiet, so she was a DF", to "She asked others to keep it quiet for unsatisfactory reasons".
The debate has not changed at all. I say Sorilea kept it quiet. You say there's no evidence she didn't tell the Wise Ones. I say there's no evidence she did, and plenty of reason to believe she didn't. You say (again) that there's no evidence she didn't tell the Wise Ones. So I say, even if she did tell the Wise Ones, she obviously told them not to tell anyone else, which is just as bad. And clearly she had a struggle with Amys before they left Cairhien, because Amys was for some reason obligated to tell Perrin that Sorilea was in charge.

But "Aiel business" isn't an unsatisfactory reason at all.
It is, considering the stakes.

Now I'm truly confused. You're saying Sorilea kept quiet so Rand's captors could get away. You mean she knew he was kidnapped, and by Aes Sedai?
At the time of her POV, obviously not. But I assume she reports to someone.

Then at last I have an answer from you on her motivation. But it makes no sense. Why would she keep quiet about it if her aim was (as you said) to cause Wise Ones to fight Aes Sedai. Wouldn't a spectacular OP fight in the city serve even better for her goals?
The thing about using the Power in battle is just something thrown into the bargain, something she'd already made strides on in TFOH.

The Unreasoner
06-01-2012, 04:26 PM
Like I said earlier, the explanation is a thin one, especially considering all the other evidence that Sorilea is a Darkfriend. Using the Wheel to explain away anything unusual is a very bad WoT debate tactic. It can be used to explain away anything. But apparently religion and PLEs go hand in hand.
I'm not sure 'Pattern pressure' = PLE. And I think it's been seen frequently enough that it has merit as a point. Not sure what you mean by your religion comment, but I guess I have to say: yes, I am a theist. Whether or not I am right in the real universe, there is a very real and present theology in WoT. Dismissing arguments that are derived from speculations on the nature of the Wheel seems unwise in that respect. Also, I wonder if good debate tactics always lead to good conclusions. Didn't you used to believe gholam were once human? You argued well, but...yeah.

Anyway, if you want a non-Wheel based argument, you have my Verin one. And 'Verin left lots of people alive' doesn't quite cut it. Verin knows a serious potential threat (she almost tried to poison Cadsuane) from a 'note' (she idly considered arranging an 'accident' for Katerine). She knows what sort of power Sorilea holds, perhaps the first to among the Aes Sedai. She knows what signs to look for in DFs, and is a capable executioner. And it is heavily implied that she Compelled Sorilea, which would allow her to ask questions and receive true answers. A perk she does not squander in the tents. Verin's quick departure seemed more personal than directed (as in, at a time of her chosing), and she does not seem the type of person to leave a loose end. She has always been meticulous. Leaving a Darkfriend of Sorilea's influence alive? Beyond reckless.

The only reason I could think of for Verin not to ask Sorilea questions on her affiliation would be that perhaps Sorilea's betrayal is instrumental in Rand's death. But then we get back to 'Pattern pressure', and we know how you hate that.

The Unreasoner
06-01-2012, 04:41 PM
If Perrin's ta'veren nature had in some way influenced Sorilea to not say something she otherwise would, then she would have thought about it afterwards, in all likelihood. Whenever we see the wheel/pattern/ta'veren cause someone to behave in an unusual way, they are always aware that they are behaving in an unusual way that they otherwise wouldn't. Consider, for instance, the AS swearing to Rand at the end of LOC. So it's highly unlikely that Sorilea or anyone else has been influenced by ta'veren. In fact, I'd go as far as to say ta'veren influence is not subtle; whenever we see it taking place it's always loud and flashy.
I'm not sure about that. Ta'veren is always flashy? That seems like a stretch. What about when Rand chose Dashiva? No one thought it (especially) odd. Certainly no one wondered about the Patterns motives.

I'm saying Sorilea had something like Mat in the beginning of TSR. He found reasons to convince himself to stay. Sure, he knew it was ta'veren, but it was much more intense there. Perrin always finds reasons to do things that seem simple enough to him, but they have enormous effects. And he attributed it to ta'veren much less frequently. He dismissed the possibility of the assassination attempt gone wrong at the manufactory as the work of ta'veren. Why would Sorilea (who may not know all that much about such things, maybe even less than Perrin) question her inner thought process? Especially if the reasons seemed sound? (she tells WO, WO tell husbands, husbands abandon Car'a'carn).

Also, there is always the possibility that she questioned it off screen.

eta:
whenever we notice it taking place it's always loud and flashy.
Fixed.
Regarding Verin and leaving people alive, it may well be that the Dark Oaths in some way prohibit her from assassinating fellow Darkfriends outside of certain circumstances; compare "except in the last most extreme defence of my life, or that of a warder or another sister" with "except where it serves my own advancement in the Shadow, or the plans of the Great Lord of the Dark or one of the Forsaken", for example. That would still allow the BA to behave in the selfish way the Dark One requires, but both prevent betrayal and ensure they serve his ends.It's not perfect. She didn't seem to think killing Katerine would be too much trouble beyond the logistics of going after her and the need to leave the Aiel (and probably not get welcomed back).

And, whatever 'condition' is necessary could have easily been facilitated. For instance 'you will attempt to smother me with the Power in my sleep tonight, for I plan to betray your allegiance' or something. Verin, waits for the weak Sorilea and then overwhelms her with her Angreal. (don't get hung up on the details here: if it needed to be done in a stable with a candlestick, Verin would have managed it).

Terez
06-01-2012, 05:18 PM
Anyway, if you want a non-Wheel based argument, you have my Verin one. And 'Verin left lots of people alive' doesn't quite cut it. Verin knows a serious potential threat (she almost tried to poison Cadsuane) from a 'note' (she idly considered arranging an 'accident' for Katerine).
Who has she actually killed, though? She could have offed Weiramon herself easily; why didn't she? It might have been easy for her to get at Sorilea; it might have been enormously difficult, especially since she was 'apprenticed' to the Wise Ones at the time and had little in the way of freedom. We don't have evidence that she's offed any Darkfriends at all, actually, and there have been plenty of dangerous ones along the way.

Weiramon
06-01-2012, 05:19 PM
Burn my soul, it's clear as the sun at noon this harridan is not working for the Shadow.

It's not like her behaviour during those crucial days leading to the rescue of the Lord Dragon shouts as though she is getting orders from a greater power.

Why, it's ridiculous, you might as well claim the entire episode at Dumai's Wells was orchestrated, despite how it ended.

The Unreasoner
06-01-2012, 05:21 PM
On the sad bracelets issue...
Epistemic Bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#Epistemic_bias)
It is possible that certain basic human epistemic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology) biases are projected onto the material under scrutiny. According to one study, humans apply a rule of thumb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_thumb) by which we expect a significant event to have a significant cause. The study offered subjects four versions of events, in which a foreign president was (a) successfully assassinated, (b) wounded but survived, (c) survived with wounds but died of a heart attack at a later date, and (d) was unharmed. Subjects were significantly more likely to suspect conspiracy in the case of the major events—in which the president died—than in the other cases, despite all other evidence available to them being equal. Connected with pareidolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia), the genetic tendency of human beings to find patterns in coincidence, this allows the discovery of conspiracy in any significant event. Another epistemic "rule of thumb" that can be misapplied to a mystery involving other humans is cui bono (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cui_bono)? (who stands to gain?). This sensitivity to the hidden motives of other people may be an evolved and universal feature of human consciousness.
I suppose you could argue that RJ is not perfect, his world is subject to limitations; and that this is a work of fiction anyway. But this is hardly the only source of exoneration.

Terez
06-01-2012, 05:24 PM
Burn my soul, it's clear as the sun at noon this harridan is not working for the Shadow.

It's not like her behaviour during those crucial days leading to the rescue of the Lord Dragon shouts as though she is getting orders from a greater power.

Why, it's ridiculous, you might as well claim the entire episode at Dumai's Wells was orchestrated, despite how it ended.
I can't rep you again. Someone else needs to post something good so I can rep them.

Zombie Sammael
06-01-2012, 05:27 PM
I'm not sure about that. Ta'veren is always flashy? That seems like a stretch. What about when Rand chose Dashiva? No one thought it (especially) odd. Certainly no one wondered about the Patterns motives.

I'm saying Sorilea had something like Mat in the beginning of TSR. He found reasons to convince himself to stay. Sure, he knew it was ta'veren, but it was much more intense there. Perrin always finds reasons to do things that seem simple enough to him, but they have enormous effects. And he attributed it to ta'veren much less frequently. He dismissed the possibility of the assassination attempt gone wrong at the manufactory as the work of ta'veren. Why would Sorilea (who may not know all that much about such things, maybe even less than Perrin) question her inner thought process? Especially if the reasons seemed sound? (she tells WO, WO tell husbands, husbands abandon Car'a'carn).

Also, there is always the possibility that she questioned it off screen.

eta:
Fixed.
It's not perfect. She didn't seem to think killing Katerine would be too much trouble beyond the logistics of going after her and the need to leave the Aiel (and probably not get welcomed back).

And, whatever 'condition' is necessary could have easily been facilitated. For instance 'you will attempt to smother me with the Power in my sleep tonight, for I plan to betray your allegiance' or something. Verin, waits for the weak Sorilea and then overwhelms her with her Angreal. (don't get hung up on the details here: if it needed to be done in a stable with a candlestick, Verin would have managed it).

This relates to one or two of the arguments you're making, so I'll state it as a general point: you are thinking too much about things that aren't there. For the purpose of discussing these books, we do have to wield Occam's Razor to a certain extent. If every time we see ta'veren manipulation taking place, it's flashy (or at least noticeable, which might have been a better term to use in my first post), then that means that until in AMOL ta'veren effects cause a blacksmith to lose a nail, a shoe, a rider, a battle, and a war, then we should assume it's always noticeable on the evidence we have at the moment. The same applies to Sorilea's thoughts. What you are positing is a hypothetical scene that doesn't exist where she intends to inform Perrin that Rand is missing, then doesn't, and in the same or subsequent hypothetical scene, she hypothetically might have questioned herself, and your argument is that since this might have happened, we should assume she is not a Darkfriend. That simply doesn't add up when we do have some evidence that at least causes us to question her motivations*. We have to focus on what we do have positive evidence for, not what might be - especially when we aren't shown what might be at all. The same applies to PLEs and Wheel-Pattern intervention via means other than ta'veren; we should avoid looking for them unless there's very direct evidence of them, since as Terez has already pointed out, they make for weak arguments, but also because the evidence in the books is that that kind of intervention takes place within very specific contexts.

Regarding the Dark Oaths, you are correct that my post was pure speculation, but I do intend to do a little more research and start a thread over the weekend regarding them. I think they reflect the Three Oaths - though I can't at present remember whether I read that in the books, the interview database, or a cool theory that I liked - hence why I chose the formulation I did.

*For the record, I'm not convinced she is a DF yet, but I do think she has behaved in a way that (as a Court might put it) requires answer.

The Unreasoner
06-01-2012, 05:31 PM
Who has she actually killed, though? She could have offed Weiramon herself easily; why didn't she?
She didn't want to play her hand too soon. There are Darkfriends and then there are Darkfriends. Rand effectively neutralized Weiramon by keeping him in a position of little power. Combined with Rand's paranoia, Verin could have quite plausibly considered the risk/reward analysis and concluded that Weiramon was not worth killing.

It might have been easy for her to get at Sorilea; it might have been enormously difficult, especially since she was 'apprenticed' to the Wise Ones at the time and had little in the way of freedom. We don't have evidence that she's offed any Darkfriends at all, actually, and there have been plenty of dangerous ones along the way.At least she would have put it in her letter to Rand, surely? A Darkfriend of Sorilea's power is far more dangerous than Katerine. And Verin considered killing Katerine quite calmly. Whether it was idle thought or actively considering the possibility is up to the reader. Perhaps Verin has offed some DF, perhaps not. But the scene with Cadsuane and the poison makes it pretty clear she would, for a serious threat.

Terez
06-01-2012, 05:45 PM
At least she would have put it in her letter to Rand, surely?
Perhaps. She might have put it in a letter to someone else. She might not have even been sure enough to mention it. Why not mention Elza in the letter, or Fera?

A Darkfriend of Sorilea's power is far more dangerous than Katerine. And Verin considered killing Katerine quite calmly.
She considered it, but she didn't do it, and since we've never actually seen her kill a Darkfriend, we have no reason to believe she necessarily should have killed Sorilea.

Whether it was idle thought or actively considering the possibility is up to the reader. Perhaps Verin has offed some DF, perhaps not. But the scene with Cadsuane and the poison makes it pretty clear she would, for a serious threat.
Perhaps...if she had the chance. Which, again, is not likely.

maleshub
06-01-2012, 06:13 PM
Out of curiosity Re: Verin and killing DF's. Would her oaths to the GLotD allow her to kill a DF to help the Light?

Zombie Sammael
06-01-2012, 06:15 PM
Out of curiosity Re: Verin and killing DF's. Would her oaths to the GLotD allow her to kill a DF to help the Light?

I considered it a few replies up, and in the thread I started on the Dark Oaths. The oath that we know might, or it might be interpreted to only refer to Black Ajah secrets and knowledge. One of her oaths might prevent her from killing outside specific contexts.

Jasin Natael
06-01-2012, 06:19 PM
I don't think Sorilea not telling Perrin necessarily means she's a darkfriend.

She's worried, probably making enquiries on her own, but doesn't want to go public until she's sure. Because this might happen:

Sorilea: Min is missing. The Car'a'carn has been kidnapped.

Maidens: We must rescue him!

(Maidens slaughter the Aes Sedai delegation

Rand returns a day later, having gone with Min to Caemlyn or somewhere else for a few days.)

Terez
06-01-2012, 06:22 PM
I don't think Sorilea not telling Perrin necessarily means she's a darkfriend.

She's worried, probably making enquiries on her own, but doesn't want to go public until she's sure.
This has already been discussed. There were people she could trust not to let it get out and cause a panic—people like Rhuarc and Berelain—and these people could have done a number of things to cover all their bases. That didn't happen.

final death
06-02-2012, 12:55 AM
I don't think Sorilea not telling Perrin necessarily means she's a darkfriend.

She's worried, probably making enquiries on her own, but doesn't want to go public until she's sure. Because this might happen:

Sorilea: Min is missing. The Car'a'carn has been kidnapped.

Maidens: We must rescue him!

(Maidens slaughter the Aes Sedai delegation

Rand returns a day later, having gone with Min to Caemlyn or somewhere else for a few days.)

That be great I can just see Rands reaction.

Cortar
06-02-2012, 06:53 AM
Regarding your twitter post on Sorilea:

Verin, probably the most effective investigator of Darkfriends in the Third Age, Compelled Sorilea. Her form allows her to ask questions and get a true response. Do you really think that she would have left a Darkfriend of Sorilea's power/influence alive when she took off?

Maybe she had explicit orders to leave Sorilea unharmed, but she could still plant a psychological block, or send a letter to Rand (or another, maybe one with no qualms on killing women) post-mortem.

I tried searching for this, but I don't know where to look, could someone help me. When exactly did Verin compel Sorilea?

Terez
06-02-2012, 06:56 AM
She didn't that we know of.

The Unreasoner
06-02-2012, 04:08 PM
She didn't that we know of.
Verin's PoV:
Gaining permission to be alone with the prisoners had required nearly as much effort as getting Sorilea and Amys to decide they needed to be questioned, and by someone intimate with the White Tower. If they ever learned they had been guided to that decision . . . It was a worry for another day.
Strongly implied. If we are only accepting things said straight out as acceptable evidence, we might as well pack up and go home.

Still working on a more detailed reply to ZS, but this was straightforward enough.

Terez
06-02-2012, 04:42 PM
Strongly implied.
Not really. Verin guides people to things all the time; it's precisely what she did in Caemlyn in the events leading up to The Mirror of Mists, and Merana thought she wouldn't have recognized it if she had not been such an experienced Gray.

If we are only accepting things said straight out as acceptable evidence, we might as well pack up and go home.
He asked when Verin compelled her. I merely pointed out that she didn't, as far as we know.

Zombie Sammael
06-02-2012, 04:49 PM
I'd say she probably did, from that statement. If she'd merely persuaded them to it, why would she be so concerned? They couldn't get mad at her for being persuasive, really. On the other hand, they'd be very upset if they found out they'd been compelled.

maleshub
06-02-2012, 04:50 PM
Could Sorilea be to the Aiel what Verin was to Randland? It might be a bit redundant; but she's been around Rand long enough to be affected by his ta'veren-ness.

Terez
06-02-2012, 04:51 PM
I'd say she probably did, from that statement. If she'd merely persuaded them to it, why would she be so concerned?
Because people don't like being manipulated. I don't see any reason to believe that Verin ever had the opportunity to compel Sorilea; her method requires that the victim be out of countenance and vulnerable in the first place, and it's doubtful she could have gotten either of them into that position, much less both.

Terez
06-02-2012, 04:52 PM
Could Sorilea be to the Aiel what Verin was to Randland?
There's not even a hint of that. There were plenty of hints with Verin, though.

maleshub
06-02-2012, 04:59 PM
There's not even a hint of that. There were plenty of hints with Verin, though.

Cannot remember any hints. But I am wondering if Rand looked into her eyes after VoG. Does Rand now recognize DF's as a rule? Or were the two in Tear an exception?

The Unreasoner
06-02-2012, 05:05 PM
Not really. Verin guides people to things all the time; it's precisely what she did in Caemlyn in the events leading up to The Mirror of Mists, and Merana thought she wouldn't have recognized it if she had not been such an experienced Gray.
Those cases are hardly the same. Perhaps Verin manipulated Sorilea in some way other than Compulsion, but when she directed events in Andor she was in a position of power to begin with, and commanded respect. 'Aes Sedai have no honor' became almost a mantra among the Aiel, what weight would Amys and Sorilea give to Verin's insistence that the da'tsang needed to be questioned, however it was presented? It would have been like asking for the order to question a mule. Useless, and shaming. Not something idly ordered.

Zombie Sammael
06-02-2012, 05:13 PM
Cannot remember any hints. But I am wondering if Rand looked into her eyes after VoG. Does Rand now recognize DF's as a rule? Or were the two in Tear an exception?

Rand has had some sort of Darkfriend detection abilities relating to the eyes for a very long time, since at least TSR (reread the first scene with Hadnan Kadere) and very likely TDR (the Darkfriend he recognised on the road). However, it's not as simple as "Darkfriend detection by looking into the eyes". It appears he needs to have some suspicion as well, and looking into the eyes merely confirms it. It's probable that, in the case of the two DFs in TOM, that suspicion was aroused by a letter from Verin.

Because people don't like being manipulated. I don't see any reason to believe that Verin ever had the opportunity to compel Sorilea; her method requires that the victim be out of countenance and vulnerable in the first place, and it's doubtful she could have gotten either of them into that position, much less both.

I really don't see how she could have manipulated the Wise Ones into deciding to let her question the AS in this case. The notion of extreme effort with them makes it sound like she went to them directly; after that, the options left to her are persuasion and compulsion. Manipulation isn't really possible for something so simple, and I'm afraid I don't see how she'd manipulate them into deciding to do that, or why she'd go to the trouble when she could compel them or just ask them outright.

maleshub
06-02-2012, 05:23 PM
Rand has had some sort of Darkfriend detection abilities relating to the eyes for a very long time, since at least TSR (reread the first scene with Hadnan Kadere) and very likely TDR (the Darkfriend he recognised on the road). However, it's not as simple as "Darkfriend detection by looking into the eyes". It appears he needs to have some suspicion as well, and looking into the eyes merely confirms it. It's probable that, in the case of the two DFs in TOM, that suspicion was aroused by a letter from Verin.


I thought Verin's letter was suspected to be about Alsalam.

The other instances where Rand looked people in the eye and suspected them. He saw dangerous eyes. In ToM, the DF could not look Rand in the eye. The same as Bashere's cousin who couldn't stand the light from Rand's presence in Maradon. That is different from his TDR and TSR experiences.

Zombie Sammael
06-02-2012, 05:31 PM
I thought Verin's letter was suspected to be about Alsalam.

The other instances where Rand looked people in the eye and suspected them. He saw dangerous eyes. In ToM, the DF could not look Rand in the eye. The same as Bashere's cousin who couldn't stand the light from Rand's presence in Maradon. That is different from his TDR and TSR experiences.

This has actually been discussed to death elsewhere, both here and on Twitter. I'd go find the threads for you, but doing it yourself will be character building. :P

maleshub
06-02-2012, 05:38 PM
This has actually been discussed to death elsewhere, both here and on Twitter. I'd go find the threads for you, but doing it yourself will be character building. :P

Does that refer to Verin's letter to Rand or to his DF-catcher eyes?

Zombie Sammael
06-02-2012, 05:42 PM
Does that refer to Verin's letter to Rand or to his DF-catcher eyes?

The magic (or otherwise) eyes.

maleshub
06-02-2012, 05:44 PM
The magic (or otherwise) eyes.

Ok! So is Verin's letter about Alsalam or the Tear DF's?

Zombie Sammael
06-02-2012, 05:52 PM
Ok! So is Verin's letter about Alsalam or the Tear DF's?

Why can't it be about both?

The Unreasoner
06-02-2012, 05:53 PM
http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/picture.php?albumid=8&pictureid=119

maleshub
06-02-2012, 05:54 PM
Why can't it be about both?

I don't know.

Terez
06-02-2012, 05:54 PM
Cannot remember any hints.
The biggest one was her seventy-year plan which apparently didn't have anything to do with Rand, since Rand's appearance threatened to throw it all out of whack. The best one, IMO, was in the very scene we're discussing where she mentions she needs to write out all of her ciphers because she might die soon. That was always one of the arguments against her being Black Ajah; for one, most Darkfriends seem to think they'll be rewarded, so they don't believe they'll die at all, and they're certainly not so nonchalant about it, and for another, what kind of Darkfriend would care about sharing knowledge with anyone? But anyway, that was a hint as to her 70-year plan, and also, when she decided not to poison Cadsuane, she thought that it was nice to finally be sure of her, and this was just after Cadsuane revealed to her that she was really just trying to help the boy. So that was a hint that Verin was concerned about powerful Darkfriends, and she was happy that Cadsuane wasn't one so she didn't have to kill her. Or, she might have been ordered to kill her; that wouldn't necessarily mean Cadsuane wasn't a Darkfriend. Killing someone is always difficult to get away with, and excuses can be made. By the by, she got the poison from Sorilea.

There are other hints, but those are the biggest ones that come to mind at the moment.

Those cases are hardly the same.
It doesn't matter if the situations are the same; the tactic is the same.

Perhaps Verin manipulated Sorilea in some way other than Compulsion, but when she directed events in Andor she was in a position of power to begin with, and commanded respect.Actually, Merana was in a position of power, and Verin was just hanging out for the tea. She took the embassy out from under Merana—even Merana didn't seem to notice that that was done just as purposefully as everything else—and still managed to 'defer without deferring' with Bera and Kiruna when they showed up to take her spot. She only had to do that because they were Aes Sedai, though; Wise Ones tend to listen to sense when they hear it, and Verin manages to make things seem both offhand and reasonable at the same time. That exact ability has been one of the chief aspects of her character since she was introduced, particularly beginning with her revelation of the dark prophecy. She confronted Siuan (as Amyrlin) and Moiraine rather directly, but then, she had the traction she needed to do so, and Moiraine's thoughts about her are not far different from Merana's.

'Aes Sedai have no honor' became almost a mantra among the Aiel, what weight would Amys and Sorilea give to Verin's insistence that the da'tsang needed to be questionedInsistence? Clearly you don't know Verin very well. She guides people to thinks by making it seem as though she's just casually commenting on them. Whatever she said to them, I doubt it was anything close to 'insistence'.

It would have been like asking for the order to question a mule. Useless, and shaming. Not something idly ordered.I have no idea what you're talking about here. They don't see the Aes Sedai as mules; they only see da'tsang that way, and only the ones who captured Rand were made da'tsang. The others were 'apprentices' from the beginning. Not very trusted apprentices, true, but far from mules. The value of questioning them was probably not a very difficult hurdle, but for Verin it was, because of her position. She couldn't even outright suggest it; she had to drop casual comments in over a certain stretch of time so as to not seem suspicious. That's why she said it took effort. The main hurdles would have been guiding them to think it a good idea for an Aes Sedai to question them, and guiding them to think that she was the most capable and trustworthy of the lot. Usually not difficult, for Verin; people always get that feeling with her, that she's maybe a little bit smarter than they are, and more than she appears to be on the surface, but they usually don't come close to guessing what she's actually up to. Just like Merana. Or Moiraine, or Perrin, or any number of other people who have spent some time with her.

I really don't see how she could have manipulated the Wise Ones into deciding to let her question the AS in this case. The notion of extreme effort with them makes it sound like she went to them directly; after that, the options left to her are persuasion and compulsion. Manipulation isn't really possible for something so simple, and I'm afraid I don't see how she'd manipulate them into deciding to do that, or why she'd go to the trouble when she could compel them or just ask them outright.
All of this is explained above in my responses to Unreasonable.

I thought Verin's letter was suspected to be about Alsalam.
It wasn't even about Alsalam; it happened to mention that Mattin Stepaneos was in the Tower, and Alsalam was all Rand's idea. But the letter also mentioned Weiramon; I think Anaiyella came with the bargain, partly because she'd been wearing Weiramon's colors lately, and partly because she was standing next to him and visibly traumatized. (See there, I used it properly.)

The other instances where Rand looked people in the eye and suspected them.And Sorilea made his blood run cold.

He saw dangerous eyes. In ToM, the DF could not look Rand in the eye. The same as Bashere's cousin who couldn't stand the light from Rand's presence in Maradon. That is different from his TDR and TSR experiences.In Maradon, it was hardly Rand's presence; Rand was channeling fuckloads of the Power. Torkumen's wife jumped out the window, and Torkumen himself clawed his eyes out, or something. I forget. (That's why I'm doing a reread.)

maleshub
06-02-2012, 06:01 PM
Thanks for the response re: Verin's hints. I should have said, "Cannot remember any hints about Sorelia;" because that is what I meant.

But I learned something new about the Tear DF's mentioned in Verin's letter. That was an eye-opener.

Another eye-opener is Rand's blood running cold after looking into Sorilea's eyes. Where did that happen?

The Unreasoner
06-02-2012, 06:08 PM
It doesn't matter if the situations are the same; the tactic is the same.
I'd say method rather than tactics, even if you're right. Tactics is too specific, and they were not the same.
Actually, Merana was in a position of power, and Verin was just hanging out for the tea.
Not my point. Verin is (relatively) strong in the Power, and has been around longer than almost anyone. Not to mention she's not under Merana's authority. She commanded power and respect in her own right. She doesn't with the WO.
Insistence? Clearly you don't know Verin very well. She guides people to thinks by making it seem as though she's just casually commenting on them. Whatever she said to them, I doubt it was anything close to 'insistence'.
Now I'm the one guilty of poor word choice. Fair enough. But, as I understood you, I'm sure you followed me.
I have no idea what you're talking about here. They don't see the Aes Sedai as mules; they only see da'tsang that way
Verin was simply an unreliable apprentice, but the Aes Sedai she sought to question were da'tsang. Why bother questioning something no better than a mule (in the WO's eyes)?
In Maradon, it was hardly Rand's presence; Rand was channeling fuckloads of the Power. Torkumen's wife jumped out the window, and Torkumen himself clawed his eyes out, or something. I forget. (That's why I'm doing a reread.)
They were on the wrong side of the building though. Bashere's comments seem to indicate it was indeed his presence.

The Unreasoner
06-02-2012, 06:18 PM
the relevant passage from ToM...
"She jumped," Torkumen whispered, clawing at his eye sockets, fingers covered with blood. He sounded dazed. "That light . . . That terrible light: Ituralde glanced at Bashere. "I cannot watch it," Torkumen muttered. "I cannot! Great Lord, where is your protection? Where are your armies to rend, your swords to strike? That Light eats at my mind, like rats feasting on a corpse. It burns at my thoughts. It killed me. That light killed me."

"He's gone mad," Bashere said grimly, kneeling down beside the man. "Better than he deserved, judging by those ramblings. Light! My own cousin a Darkfriend. And in control of the city!"

"What is he talking about?" one of Bashere's men said. "A light? Surely he couldn't have seen the battle. None of these windows face the right way."

"I'm not sure he was talking about the battle, Vogeler," Bashere said.

Terez
06-02-2012, 06:20 PM
Verin was simply an unreliable apprentice, but the Aes Sedai she sought to question were da'tsang. Why bother questioning something no better than a mule (in the WO's eyes)?
Because they know things. A great deal more than mules, anyway.

They were on the wrong side of the building though. Bashere's comments seem to indicate it was indeed his presence.
Bashere was probably wrong. I doubt it matters what side of the building they were on.

The Unreasoner
06-02-2012, 06:26 PM
Because they know things. A great deal more than mules, anyway.
About what? What is it that Amys and Sorilea thought to gain? Channeling secrets? they didn't care, or need to learn (they had Egwene). The White Tower politics? I think that falls into the category of 'frivolous wetlander business'. What the AS planned? It was likely a variant of the narrative pitched by the embassy. They know (real) AS cannot lie.

Bashere was probably wrong. I doubt it matters what side of the building they were on.
Do you care to explain this? I certainly don't follow, considering the passage I posted.

Terez
06-02-2012, 06:31 PM
Also, I just have to say, again, for the record, that the idea that Verin could get away with using the Power, and most especially her crazy compulsion weave, on Sorilea is ridiculous. The idea that she could get away with it with Amys is ridiculous too, but it's even more ridiculous with Sorilea. On top of the fact that the prisoners were already at the end of their ropes psychologically, she had to use Healing to make them open to it. Since no one attacks Wise Ones, it's doubtful any of them needed Healing, and I doubt they would accept Healing from Verin for something minor. I know that everyone wants Verin to have compelled everyone she ever met, but in most cases it's just not plausible. It's much more plausible with someone like Alanna who is emotionally vulnerable, but even in that case we have evidence that she didn't do it.

Of course the thing was not truly Compulsion as ancient texts described it. The weaving went with painful slowness, cobbled together as it was, and there was that need for a reason. It helped a great deal if the object of the weave was emotionally vulnerable, but trust was absolutely essential. Even catching someone by surprise did no good if they were suspicious. That fact cut down its usefulness with men considerably; very few men lacked suspicion around Aes Sedai.

Terez
06-02-2012, 06:36 PM
Do you care to explain this? I certainly don't follow, considering the passage I posted.
You should try a little harder in the future. For one, you might try coming up with a reason why this doesn't happen to every Darkfriend Rand meets. For another, it's not as if they were actually blinded by the light of his channeling; it's the effect of his channeling. It's not any more unbelievable that the channeling would affect them in that way on the 'wrong' side of the building than it is that his 'presence' would affect them that way.

The Unreasoner
06-02-2012, 06:38 PM
Trust is a relative thing, and it only helps if the subject is vulnerable. How much do you think the Compelled Reds trusted a woman who swore fealty to a man that could channel?

The Unreasoner
06-02-2012, 06:45 PM
You should try a little harder in the future. For one, you might try coming up with a reason why this doesn't happen to every Darkfriend Rand meets. For another, it's not as if they were actually blinded by the light of his channeling; it's the effect of his channeling. It's not any more unbelievable that the channeling would affect them in that way on the 'wrong' side of the building than it is that his 'presence' would affect them that way.
Can you prove that not every DF is affected that way? Rand's 'aura' or whatever may fluctuate in intensity, and it is plausible that it was especially strong at Maradon. But is there a case where a confirmed DF is left unnaffected post-Epiphany?

And I still don't follow the notion of 'the effect of the channeling'. It's not like Vogeler was talking about the light of his channeling; he probably wouldn't have seen it even if it existed around men. He was talking about the effect, which (unless I am very much mistaken), was the battle. Which was not visible from Torkumen's room.

Channeling is a very scientific and regulated process. It operates like a science much more than it operates like the traditional 'magic'. But science is by its nature consistent. If it was simply the 'effect of the channeling' that blinded Torkumen, why wasn't Ituralde affected?

Terez
06-02-2012, 06:49 PM
Trust is a relative thing
One could say the same for the arguments you've been making all along. But I think trust is 'absolutely essential' in the case of the compulsion weave. Not so much in the matter of Verin's specialty—manipulating by casual suggestion.

and it only helps if the subject is vulnerable.Yes, but it does no good to catch them by surprise—the only other option—if the victim has cause to be suspicious. You can't claim Sorilea has no cause to mistrust Verin; your entire argument rests on that suggestion.

How much do you think the Compelled Reds trusted a woman who swore fealty to a man that could channel?She's Aes Sedai, and the Aes Sedai trust each other more than they trust Wise Ones, particularly after they've been imprisoned with them for so long; they're nearly broken at this point. They know she has an excuse, too. Who else do they have to trust at this point? Maybe she brought them sweetcakes when they were novices, too. But again, the vulnerability helps, and the idea that Verin could get her hands on Sorilea when she was vulnerable is ridiculous.

The Unreasoner
06-02-2012, 07:00 PM
One could say the same for the arguments you've been making all along. But I think trust is 'absolutely essential' in the case of the compulsion weave. Not so much in the matter of Verin's specialty—manipulating by casual suggestion.
I don't see why she couldn't have tried manipulation in order to attain that modicum of trust. And as one of the WO said (can't remember which, or where): 'they are apprentices now'. I don't see why Sorilea (and, for the purposes of this thread, it is necessary to include Amys) would distrust any apprentice, especially one who is believed to be unable to lie.

She's Aes Sedai, and the Aes Sedai trust each other more than they trust Wise Ones, particularly after they've been imprisoned with them for so long; they're nearly broken at this point. They know she has an excuse, too. Who else do they have to trust at this point? Maybe she brought them sweetcakes when they were novices, too. But again, the vulnerability helps, and the idea that Verin could get her hands on Sorilea when she was vulnerable is ridiculous.
Vulnerability helps, yes. But what is this excuse you speak of? And as I said, trust is relative. The Reds saw Verin as an Aes Sedai who swore fealty to a rabid dog, and still trusted Verin 'enough' for her purposes. I don't think it unreasonable to think that Verin could have managed to achieve that same level of trust with Sorilea and Amys.

Kimon
06-02-2012, 07:13 PM
Vulnerability helps, yes. But what is this excuse you speak of? And as I said, trust is relative. The Reds saw Verin as an Aes Sedai who swore fealty to a rabid dog, and still trusted Verin 'enough' for her purposes. I don't think it unreasonable to think that Verin could have managed to achieve that same level of trust with Sorilea and Amys.

Her compulsion weave required quite a bit of time to be put in place. Had she had the same dexterity and speed with weaving compulsion as Moghedien, or perhaps even Liandrin, or if she simply had known at that time how to invert her weaves, then your claim would seem much more plausible, but what excuse would she have had to form such a slow weave and to direct it against Sorilea or Amys? With the captives, along with their shattered psyches, she also had the excuse of Healing them. Her actions here sound much more like clever manipulation than compulsion.

Terez
06-02-2012, 07:17 PM
I'm done with this particular argument (not with the thread in general), but I just wanted to drop this here.
Verin had slipped into the room as Demira began, and she added, "There can be no doubt of Perrin. I sent Tomas to look at the Two Rivers men’s camp. It seems they have sent two men to the Palace for Perrin’s horse, and his wife’s. The rest have left the wagons and servants and are already riding east as hard as they can go. Behind Perrin’s wolfhead, and the Red Eagle of Manetheren." A faint smile curved her lips as though she found that amusing. Kairen plainly did not; she gasped, then clamped her mouth shut in a hard line.

Merana did not find it amusing either, but it was such a small thing compared to the rest. A faint whiff of something spoiled when you already sat on a midden heap; a dog snarling at you when wolves already had hold of your skirts. To think that she had worried so over Verin, struggled so hard. Verin had hardly touched her own plans really, except for guiding Demira into suggesting today’s unfortunate confrontation. It had been done quite skillfully; Merana did not believe anyone but a Gray would have noticed. Yet she herself had agreed even with that. Facing al’Thor down – trying to face him down – was the least they could have done. She had worried about Verin, and then Kiruna and Bera appeared, neither with any tie to her authority, both at least as strong as Masuri or Faeldrin or Rafela.

The Unreasoner
06-02-2012, 07:20 PM
Her compulsion weave required quite a bit of time to be put in place. Had she had the same dexterity and speed with weaving compulsion as Moghedien, or perhaps even Liandrin, or if she simply had known at that time how to invert her weaves, then your claim would seem much more plausible, but what excuse would she have had to form such a slow weave and to direct it against Sorilea or Amys? With the captives, along with their shattered psyches, she also had the excuse of Healing them. Her actions here sound much more like clever manipulation than compulsion.
Time may be an issue, but we're not about hours, we're talking about minutes. And once it's in place, memory gets fuzzy.

And Terez's trust point is ridiculous: Sorilea and Amys decide the da'tsang are worth questioning, by an Aes Sedai apprentice, and without a WO supervisor (without being Compelled). And they set Verin to the task. So they trust Verin enough to give her all of this responsibility, but not enough to be receptive to the weave? And as I noted with my comment on the Reds, the minimum amount of trust required does not seem very high.

ETA:
@Terez
No one is arguing that Verin can't manipulate without the weave.

Kimon
06-02-2012, 07:31 PM
Time may be an issue, but we're not about hours, we're talking about minutes. And once it's in place, memory gets fuzzy.

And Terez's trust point is ridiculous: Sorilea and Amys decide the da'tsang are worth questioning, by an Aes Sedai apprentice, and without a WO supervisor (without being Compelled). And they set Verin to the task. So they trust Verin enough to give her all of this responsibility, but not enough to be receptive to the weave? And as I noted with my comment on the Reds, the minimum amount of trust required does not seem very high.

ETA:
@Terez
No one is arguing that Verin can't manipulate without the weave.

Here's the relevant passage again:

Once Aeron departed, Verin allowed herself a sigh of relief. She had been afraid Aeron intended to remain. Gaining permission to be alone with the prisoners had required nearly as much effort as getting Sorilea and Amys to decide they needed to be questioned, and by someone intimate with the White Tower. If they ever learned that they had been guided to that decision.... It was a worry for another day. She seemed to be piling up a great many of those.

"Guided" sounds much more like manipulation than compulsion to me.

The Unreasoner
06-02-2012, 08:02 PM
"Guided" sounds much more like manipulation than compulsion to me.
I'm not sure what to say to that. And this thread is complicated enough without us starting to debate the connotation of 'guided'. I will say that having to avoid saying outright lies (or in Verin's case, having to avoid getting caught saying them) has created a tendency in Aes Sedai to speak (and even think) around a point. 'Guided' could very well be a euphemism Verin uses for Compulsion.

And there's this:
In a firm, low voice, Verin gave her instructions. More like suggestions, though she phrased them as commands. Beldeine would have to find reasons within herself to obey; if she did not, then all this had been so much wasted effort.

The specific nature of this particular brand of Compulsion may be more or less covered by the 'guided' euphemism. The need for a reason seems to make it slightly less strong than 'forced'.

Terez
06-02-2012, 08:20 PM
ETA:
@Terez
No one is arguing that Verin can't manipulate without the weave.
Only you. The fact that you said that quote 'strongly implied' compulsion is what brought me into the debate in the first place. It doesn't.

"Guided" sounds much more like manipulation than compulsion to me.
It's even the same word Merana used.

The Unreasoner
06-02-2012, 08:27 PM
Only you.
No. I simply think she used it here. I don't even claim that it's all she used here. I may even be wrong. Although I have yet to see a convincing argument on why Rand wouldn't have simply spotted Sorilea as a Darkfriend on his own. He never even met Torkumen, and yet he had an effect. Through walls, at a distance. And I'm still not following your argument of 'it was the effect of his channeling.'

Terez
06-02-2012, 08:38 PM
I'm still not following...
I imagine this is surprising to no one.

The Unreasoner
06-02-2012, 08:53 PM
I imagine this is surprising to no one.
Ha. I imagine that the only thing less surprising is your response to it.

fionwe1987
06-02-2012, 08:58 PM
I have already spelled out the reasons; there were a number of things they could have done, not least sending scouts (Maidens and siswai'aman to trail the Aes Sedai when they disappeared. They could have confided in Berelain, Rhuarc, Perrin—level heads who would know better than to let word get out—and they could have contacted Melaine in her dreams to see if Rand was in Caemlyn or not.
I'm not sure the last didn't happen anyway, but what makes you think they had any indication any of the rest was needed? Sorelia's PoV makes it clear that she doesn't suspect the Aes Sedai with respect to Rand's disappearance at all. If she had orders to prevent any trailing of the Aes Sedai, and curb any suspicions that Rand might be kidnapped, then she would have figured out he was kidnapped. She would hardly have thought:

She could only just sense it because she could only just channel at all, but that was not why she ignored it. They had been channeling day and night in there since their arrival; none of the Wise Ones wasted thought on why any longer.

Nor would she have thought it was a coincidence that Min vanished. She'd have connected the dots and figured she was being held by the AS too. She's nobody's fool, and unless you're buying into Unreasoners ridiculous "ta'veren induced stupidity" theory, Sorelia can't have had orders to ignore the AS.

The debate has not changed at all. I say Sorilea kept it quiet. You say there's no evidence she didn't tell the Wise Ones. I say there's no evidence she did, and plenty of reason to believe she didn't. You say (again) that there's no evidence she didn't tell the Wise Ones. So I say, even if she did tell the Wise Ones, she obviously told them not to tell anyone else, which is just as bad. And clearly she had a struggle with Amys before they left Cairhien, because Amys was for some reason obligated to tell Perrin that Sorilea was in charge.
But there's a difference between Sorilea keeping it secret, and Sorilea asking other Wise Ones to keep it secret. The first is fairly strong evidence for her to be a DF, or at least up to something suspicious. The second has many very reasonable explanations. The problem, however, is that there is very weak evidence that Sorilea kept this from the WO, especially given that Sulin knew.

Believe what you may, the Wise Ones have shown no sign of cooperating with Wetlanders like Perrin and Berelain before. It was only when Perrin showed his clear intentions to rescue Rand that Sorilea began to trust him and asked Rhuarc to tell him everything, about why he couldn't take a huge Aiel army against the AS.

It is, considering the stakes.
What stakes? Sorilea's PoV clearly reveals she didn't think Rand had been kidnapped. She was suspicious, yes, but you're asking Sorilea and the Aiel to have foresight of events based on what you know, not based on what they do. We know Sulin also knew exactly what Sorilea did: that Rand disappeared right around the time of his meeting with the AS, and that Min had disappeared between the tents and the Palace. Yet, it took Berelain revealing Rand's sword for Sulin to realize Rand had been kidnapped. Sorilea could have been in a similar stage of thinking, which is why she didn't order all these things that you feel she should have.

At the time of her POV, obviously not. But I assume she reports to someone.
If so, what was her motivation at that time to keep Min's disappearance secret? She doesn't know Rand has been kidnapped, nor does she know the AS are involved. All she has is that Min rather conveniently disappeared when Rand did, which is hardly proof that Rand was kidnapped. As we saw with Perrin, it could be used as proof that Rand took her with him. So why would Sorilea have kept this secret before orders from above made it necessary for her to?

The thing about using the Power in battle is just something thrown into the bargain, something she'd already made strides on in TFOH.
What was her motive, then? Orders from above? That doesn't quite add up with the timeline we have.

Marie Curie 7
06-02-2012, 10:16 PM
Verin's PoV:
TPoD, Prologue

Gaining permission to be alone with the prisoners had required nearly as much effort as getting Sorilea and Amys to decide they needed to be questioned, and by someone intimate with the White Tower. If they ever learned they had been guided to that decision . . . It was a worry for another day.

Strongly implied. If we are only accepting things said straight out as acceptable evidence, we might as well pack up and go home.

One of the issues with this is that the 'compulsion' that Verin used took a fair amount of time; it was really slow, as a matter of fact:

The Path of Daggers
Prologue – Deceptive Appearances

Of course the thing was not truly Compulsion as ancient texts described it. The weaving went with painful slowness, cobbled together as it was, and there was that need for a reason. It helped a great deal if the object of the weave was emotionally vulnerable, but trust was absolutely essential. Even catching someone by surprise did no good if they were suspicious. That fact cut down its usefulness with men considerably; very few men lacked suspicion around Aes Sedai.

So how would Verin use such a weave on Sorilea or Amys? They are two of the most headstrong and self-assured Wise Ones of all, and especially after Dumai's Wells, they are not likely to have any trust for Aes Sedai . . .

In addition, as noted above, the 'compulsion' weave that Verin used was most effective if the recipient was emotionally vulnerable . . . unfortunately, that does not sound like either Sorilea or Amys in the least.

Furthermore, use of her compulsion weave would require Verin to channel in the presence of Amys and/or Sorilea, when the Aes Sedai taken as apprentices had to receive permission to use the One Power:

The Path of Daggers
Prologue – Deceptive Appearances

Everything went quickly then, and smoothly. As the crouching men lifted Turanna to her feet by the arms, she let the silver cup fall. Empty, luckily for her. She did not struggle, which was just as well, considering that either could have carried her off under one arm like a sack of grain, but her mouth hung open, emitting a wordless keening. The Aiel paid no heed. Daviena, focusing the circle, assumed the shield, and Verin let go of the Source completely. None of them trusted her enough to let her hold saidar without a known reason, no matter what oaths she had sworn. Neither appeared to notice, but they surely would have had she held on. The men hauled Turanna away, her bare feet dragging across the layered carpets that floored the tent, and the Wise Ones followed them out. And that was that. What could be done with Turanna had been done.

So again, how exactly would Verin have been able to use her cobbled-together pseudo-compulsion weave on either Sorilea or Amys, or any of the Wise Ones, for that matter?

The Unreasoner
06-02-2012, 10:42 PM
Believe it or not, I'm always a little relieved when you start posting on Terez's side when we have our little squabbles, Marie.

Makes me think I'm worth dismissing;)
One of the issues with this is that the 'compulsion' that Verin used took a fair amount of time; it was really slow, as a matter of fact:



So how would Verin use such a weave on Sorilea or Amys? They are two of the most headstrong and self-assured Wise Ones of all, and especially after Dumai's Wells, they are not likely to have any trust for Aes Sedai . . .
To take a page out of Terez's book, this has already been discussed. If it wasn't to your satisfaction, dismiss it. Verin couldn't get 10 minutes alone with Sorilea and Amys? They didn't have the most basic level of trust for an apprentice?
In addition, as noted above, the 'compulsion' weave that Verin used was most effective if the recipient was emotionally vulnerable . . . unfortunately, that does not sound like either Sorilea or Amys in the least.

No it does not. As I have also acknowledged and explained.
Furthermore, use of her compulsion weave would require Verin to channel in the presence of Amys and/or Sorilea, when the Aes Sedai taken as apprentices had to receive permission to use the One Power
Why? They can't hold the Power without a known reason, maybe even gave their word that they wouldn't channel anything without permission. But the latter wouldn't stop Verin, and she could easily have been using the Power for an innocuous reason at the same time. For instance, heating the rocks in a sweat tent. Where she might have been discussing Rand with Sorilea and Amys. Her opinions may even be thought valuable, she knew him for a relatively long time.

fionwe1987
06-03-2012, 12:35 AM
I think the whole argument over the compulsion is side-tracking the central point: Verin would have discovered if Sorilea was a Darkfriend.

This is the woman who ferreted out over 95% of the BA (and since it wasn't 100%, she obviously didn't have access to Alviarin's list). She has extensive notes on Darkfriend circles. She even looked at Warders and Novices. She investigated Elaida, she investigated Cadsuane... I'll believe she didn't investigate Sorilea when hell freezes over. She spent extensive amounts of time with her, gained her trust, was aware of her working with Cadsuane, was aware of her influence among the Wise Ones, and, with Katerine's escape, had ample reason to investigate Darkfriends among the Aiel. Whether she used compulsion or not (and I'm divided on this. There are quotes supporting both sides of the argument), she would have looked at Sorilea. Any overtly suspicious activity would have come out, I think.

jana
06-03-2012, 02:18 AM
I think the whole argument over the compulsion is side-tracking the central point: Verin would have discovered if Sorilea was a Darkfriend.

This is the woman who ferreted out over 95% of the BA (and since it wasn't 100%, she obviously didn't have access to Alviarin's list). She has extensive notes on Darkfriend circles. She even looked at Warders and Novices. She investigated Elaida, she investigated Cadsuane... I'll believe she didn't investigate Sorilea when hell freezes over. She spent extensive amounts of time with her, gained her trust, was aware of her working with Cadsuane, was aware of her influence among the Wise Ones, and, with Katerine's escape, had ample reason to investigate Darkfriends among the Aiel. Whether she used compulsion or not (and I'm divided on this. There are quotes supporting both sides of the argument), she would have looked at Sorilea. Any overtly suspicious activity would have come out, I think.

This isn't a good argument. Verin is fallible. Sorilea intimidates everyone she comes across, including Cadsuane. You have to be a formidable and smart person to do that. If there was anyone who was going to avoid getting found out by Verin, it's her.

GonzoTheGreat
06-03-2012, 05:29 AM
A stronger point is that there are secret DF recognition signs. That's how Kadere identified at least some DF Aiel.
Verin, being BA, would probably know those signs. So she could have used them if she were wondering whether or not Sorilea served the Shadow. Then, if she'd gotten the right reply, she would have known, and if she hadn't gotten a reply, that too would have been fairly good information.

Of course, it is possible that Verin and Sorilea never met in circumstances where exchanging such signs could be safe enough to do it. But that seems a bit unlikely.

Zombie Sammael
06-03-2012, 06:25 AM
A stronger point is that there are secret DF recognition signs. That's how Kadere identified at least some DF Aiel.
Verin, being BA, would probably know those signs. So she could have used them if she were wondering whether or not Sorilea served the Shadow. Then, if she'd gotten the right reply, she would have known, and if she hadn't gotten a reply, that too would have been fairly good information.

Of course, it is possible that Verin and Sorilea never met in circumstances where exchanging such signs could be safe enough to do it. But that seems a bit unlikely.

I wonder if the Darkfriend signals would be the same for an Aiel as for an Aes Sedai. Of course, Liandrin was able to recognise the Seanchan, but wasn't that because she was told what to do?

The Unreasoner
06-03-2012, 07:03 AM
I think the whole argument over the compulsion is side-tracking the central point: Verin would have discovered if Sorilea was a Darkfriend.

This is the woman who ferreted out over 95% of the BA (and since it wasn't 100%, she obviously didn't have access to Alviarin's list). She has extensive notes on Darkfriend circles. She even looked at Warders and Novices. She investigated Elaida, she investigated Cadsuane... I'll believe she didn't investigate Sorilea when hell freezes over. She spent extensive amounts of time with her, gained her trust, was aware of her working with Cadsuane, was aware of her influence among the Wise Ones, and, with Katerine's escape, had ample reason to investigate Darkfriends among the Aiel. Whether she used compulsion or not (and I'm divided on this. There are quotes supporting both sides of the argument), she would have looked at Sorilea. Any overtly suspicious activity would have come out, I think.
Unblocked, and repped. I think Sorilea was Compelled. But that is secondary to the rest. Compulsion or no Compulsion, Verin would have found Sorilea out.

Whether she could stop Sorilea or not is a more interesting question.
This isn't a good argument. Verin is fallible. Sorilea intimidates everyone she comes across, including Cadsuane. You have to be a formidable and smart person to do that. If there was anyone who was going to avoid getting found out by Verin, it's her.
No offense, but is your argument any better? Fionwe says, essentially: Verin is capable enough to catch Darkfriends. Is your response really: Sorilea is made of Dark Awesome, no one can touch her?

Side note: I'm not convinced even Cadsuane intimidated Verin. I'm not sure Cadsuane was convinced either.
A stronger point is that there are secret DF recognition signs. That's how Kadere identified at least some DF Aiel.
Verin, being BA, would probably know those signs. So she could have used them if she were wondering whether or not Sorilea served the Shadow. Then, if she'd gotten the right reply, she would have known, and if she hadn't gotten a reply, that too would have been fairly good information.

Of course, it is possible that Verin and Sorilea never met in circumstances where exchanging such signs could be safe enough to do it. But that seems a bit unlikely.
Unlikely indeed, especially if Verin was investigating her.
I wonder if the Darkfriend signals would be the same for an Aiel as for an Aes Sedai. Of course, Liandrin was able to recognise the Seanchan, but wasn't that because she was told what to do?
We can't be sure about Liandrin's exact circumstances. Liandrin may have simply found a Dark patron in order to obey her most primal command from Moghedien.

But even if the exact nature of the identifiers vary from region to region, I would assume some common elements exist, if only to not inconvenience the Chosen.

Zombie Sammael
06-03-2012, 07:18 AM
The reason I wonder that about the signals is because one of the ways I would assume they might be given is via hand signals. With Maiden handtalk as prevalent as it is among the Aiel, it would necessarily interfere with a Darkfriend signal of that kind, which suggests that the Aiel would need a separate Darkfriend signifier. Of course, there's no reason why a hand signal should be the only signal, or the only part, but if it was part of the means of recognition it might be complicated among the Aiel but perfectly useful amongst Aes Sedai or Seanchan. I'd expect something to do with the eyes to be used amongst all groups of Darkfriends as a mean of recognition, however.

fionwe1987
06-03-2012, 11:20 AM
This isn't a good argument. Verin is fallible.
Well, yes. Based on the fact that no human being is perfect, she is indeed fallible. But when it comes to ferreting out Darkfriends of any stripe, there's precious little indication of fallibility.
Sorilea intimidates everyone she comes across, including Cadsuane.
So Verin is fallible, but Sorilea is not? :p

Added to which... what has intimidation got to do with anything? Are you really saying Verin chickened out?

You have to be a formidable and smart person to do that.
What, intimidate people? You have to be much more formidable and smart to infiltrate a secret organization dedicated to the devil, then ferret out 95% of their membership, then investigate the Foresaken and understand them well enough to have the most clear-eyed view of them in the entire series. And Cadsuane is immensely formidable and immensely smart too. Didn't stop Verin from investigating her and coming to the right conclusion...
If there was anyone who was going to avoid getting found out by Verin, it's her.
Really? Based on her persona of toughness and competence? Cadsuane has the same traits. Didn't stop Verin, did it?

GonzoTheGreat
06-03-2012, 11:42 AM
Well, yes. Based on the fact that no human being is perfect, she is indeed fallible. But when it comes to ferreting out Darkfriends of any stripe, there's precious little indication of fallibility.
Maybe, just like Danelle, Sorilea is Mesaana? :p

Cortar
06-03-2012, 05:00 PM
Why does everyone think Sorilea is in the clear because Verin didn't kill her?

Isn't it possible that Verin knew she was BA but didn't do anything to her physically and instead sent someone a letter or something?

Is there a Verin PoV where she clears her or something? Because I can't remember whatever half the people here seemed to have read.

Zombie Sammael
06-03-2012, 05:11 PM
Why does everyone think Sorilea is in the clear because Verin didn't kill her?

Isn't it possible that Verin knew she was BA but didn't do anything to her physically and instead sent someone a letter or something?

Is there a Verin PoV where she clears her or something? Because I can't remember whatever half the people here seemed to have read.

If it were that simple, I doubt we'd be discussing it as much as we are. There's a significant amount of circumstantial evidence regarding Sorilea, but the fact that Verin didn't take action against her is an argument in her favour. Some people think that can be explained away by Verin's own motivations, however. We know Verin did send a letter to Rand and it did identify several Darkfriends within it, but Sorilea didn't appear in TOM so we don't know if she was one of them. If she is one, then she's one of the most capable - at hiding, at least - in the series and might still be placed to do some major damage. Hence the debate and in-depth analysis.

Jasin Natael
06-03-2012, 06:03 PM
I have picked over Sorilea's lone POV over and over since TGS came out, trying to determine what RJ was trying to tell us with it. I can't believe it took me—us—so long.


I thought this POV was just to spell out for anyone who didn't catch it that the Aes Sedai that had been channeling since they arrived were doing it to mask that they were holding Rand. For that they needed a female channeler POV working with Rand's forces.

Maybe that Saldaean Lord is a man who could learn to channel, attuned enough to feel just how much of the power Rand is holding.
For the rest, I agree with this:
I'm not sure the last didn't happen anyway, but what makes you think they had any indication any of the rest was needed? Sorelia's PoV makes it clear that she doesn't suspect the Aes Sedai with respect to Rand's disappearance at all. If she had orders to prevent any trailing of the Aes Sedai, and curb any suspicions that Rand might be kidnapped, then she would have figured out he was kidnapped. She would hardly have thought:


Quote:
She could only just sense it because she could only just channel at all, but that was not why she ignored it. They had been channeling day and night in there since their arrival; none of the Wise Ones wasted thought on why any longer.

Nor would she have thought it was a coincidence that Min vanished. She'd have connected the dots and figured she was being held by the AS too. She's nobody's fool, and unless you're buying into Unreasoners ridiculous "ta'veren induced stupidity" theory, Sorelia can't have had orders to ignore the AS.


Quote:
The debate has not changed at all. I say Sorilea kept it quiet. You say there's no evidence she didn't tell the Wise Ones. I say there's no evidence she did, and plenty of reason to believe she didn't. You say (again) that there's no evidence she didn't tell the Wise Ones. So I say, even if she did tell the Wise Ones, she obviously told them not to tell anyone else, which is just as bad. And clearly she had a struggle with Amys before they left Cairhien, because Amys was for some reason obligated to tell Perrin that Sorilea was in charge.

But there's a difference between Sorilea keeping it secret, and Sorilea asking other Wise Ones to keep it secret. The first is fairly strong evidence for her to be a DF, or at least up to something suspicious. The second has many very reasonable explanations. The problem, however, is that there is very weak evidence that Sorilea kept this from the WO, especially given that Sulin knew.

Believe what you may, the Wise Ones have shown no sign of cooperating with Wetlanders like Perrin and Berelain before. It was only when Perrin showed his clear intentions to rescue Rand that Sorilea began to trust him and asked Rhuarc to tell him everything, about why he couldn't take a huge Aiel army against the AS.


Quote:
It is, considering the stakes.

What stakes? Sorilea's PoV clearly reveals she didn't think Rand had been kidnapped. She was suspicious, yes, but you're asking Sorilea and the Aiel to have foresight of events based on what you know, not based on what they do. We know Sulin also knew exactly what Sorilea did: that Rand disappeared right around the time of his meeting with the AS, and that Min had disappeared between the tents and the Palace. Yet, it took Berelain revealing Rand's sword for Sulin to realize Rand had been kidnapped. Sorilea could have been in a similar stage of thinking, which is why she didn't order all these things that you feel she should have.


Quote:
At the time of her POV, obviously not. But I assume she reports to someone.

If so, what was her motivation at that time to keep Min's disappearance secret? She doesn't know Rand has been kidnapped, nor does she know the AS are involved. All she has is that Min rather conveniently disappeared when Rand did, which is hardly proof that Rand was kidnapped. As we saw with Perrin, it could be used as proof that Rand took her with him. So why would Sorilea have kept this secret before orders from above made it necessary for her to?


Quote:
The thing about using the Power in battle is just something thrown into the bargain, something she'd already made strides on in TFOH.

What was her motive, then? Orders from above? That doesn't quite add up with the timeline we have.

Seeker
06-03-2012, 07:56 PM
I have picked over Sorilea's lone POV over and over since TGS came out, trying to determine what RJ was trying to tell us with it. I can't believe it took me—us—so long.


She realized that Min disappeared between the tents and the palace. In other words, she realized Min never reached the palace at all...and yet she apparently told no one. No one knew Rand was gone until Berelain found his sword, and if they'd known about Min, they would have known about Rand.

Does anyone still wonder, now?

I'm sorry but this is pretty thin.

Sorliea notes that Min's disappeance seems an odd coincidence alongside Rand's disappearance? And she doesn't say anything? Well, given that numerous Wise Ones have popped in on Rand while Min was snuggled up in his lap, it's not much of a stretch to assume that they might have disappeared together for... other reasons.

Seeker
06-03-2012, 08:01 PM
Also, given that this debate hinges on the fact that Sorliea didn't share a crucial piece of information, I feel the need to point out that this is painfully common among RJ's characters and if this alone was basis enough to suspect foul play, we'd have to accuse everyone of being a darkfriend.

Given the number of times that Elayne runs off to do something stupid without telling anyone, I think we can safely conclude that she's secretly trying to get all of her so-called allies killed in a subtle ploy to be named Nae'Blis.

maleshub
06-03-2012, 09:57 PM
How does the Nakomi is Verin theory play into this? In that theory, Verin is knowledgeable enough in Aiel lore to intercept Aviendha in the Waste and discuss the future and purpose of the Aiel.

So, if we believe the above theory is credible, Verin could have investigated Sorilea's "shifts" if she wanted to :p

eht slat meit
06-03-2012, 10:48 PM
Also, given that this debate hinges on the fact that Sorliea didn't share a crucial piece of information, I feel the need to point out that this is painfully common among RJ's characters and if this alone was basis enough to suspect foul play, we'd have to accuse everyone of being a darkfriend.

Given the number of times that Elayne runs off to do something stupid without telling anyone, I think we can safely conclude that she's secretly trying to get all of her so-called allies killed in a subtle ploy to be named Nae'Blis.

There's a couple of crucial differences here, one in-story, the other meta.
1. If you're citing Elayne as the (only) example, she's already got a track record for being as reckless as Mat. It's part of her charm, and while she's cunning at politics, she's no Sorilea. Sorilea is a calculating woman with such force of personality that she dominates even the Aiel people. When she fails to share crucial information, there's a reason for it that goes beyond "I'm queen and I say so." Unless RJ's trying to share a critical shortcoming in her personality.

2. Following on that thought - Elayne's a primary character, and Sorilea is secondary. While undue attention is paid to describing the chickens and farms, my perception tells me that when a secondary with almost no other PoV representation in the books gets a PoV mention, something worth noting is happening. We're meant to gain some insight, whether it's into her personality flaws, or something larger, plotwise.

Question is: What's he trying to tell the reader with it?

frenchie
06-03-2012, 10:51 PM
That's the thing, Verin is only knowledgeable enough to hit on general points. She is a bullshit artist. She's smart enough to guide you come to the choice she wants you to make. Mat comments on this in TGS, which brings to mind the old saying, "You can't bullshit a bullshitter".

GonzoTheGreat
06-04-2012, 03:05 AM
Sorilea is a calculating woman with such force of personality that she dominates even the Aiel people. When she fails to share crucial information, there's a reason for it that goes beyond "I'm queen and I say so."
No, but it would be entirely in character for Sorilea to be investigating this on her own (delegating any hard work to others, of course), reach a decision on her own, and then tell the Aiel what they have to do. She doesn't share this information because it is already with the one who has to decide upon it: Sorilea.

Davian93
06-04-2012, 08:54 AM
Perhaps Verin couldn't ferret out Sorilea's allegiance because her crude form of compulsion only works on those individuals who are already vulnerable and those who are at ease around her (the reason it doesnt work on men most of the time). Thus, Sorilea likely never let her guard down.

There's also the possibility that Sorilea's handler deliberately told her not to identify herself to other DFs at some point.

Zombie Sammael
06-04-2012, 09:49 AM
Perhaps Verin couldn't ferret out Sorilea's allegiance because her crude form of compulsion only works on those individuals who are already vulnerable and those who are at ease around her (the reason it doesnt work on men most of the time). Thus, Sorilea likely never let her guard down.

There's also the possibility that Sorilea's handler deliberately told her not to identify herself to other DFs at some point.

The first point gets us on to the question of whether Verin compelled her or not, which her POV seems to imply she did, but which we've already discussed a bit. However, it being raised again, I went back and reread the relevant scene, and I found this quite interesting:

One of the smaller effects of this weave was to loosen the tongue and open the mind as well as any herb ever could, an effect that came on quickly.

So Verin's weave is about as good at getting people to reveal secrets as, say, a truth serum or alcohol - it's not something that seems like it would get an entrenched Darkfriend to reveal herself and give up her secrets. Verin does go on to get a few answers out of Beldeine that she wouldn't normally have given, but nothing that's particularly shocking or revealing. The primary purpose of the compulsion weave is to get someone to do as she asks, not reveal secrets - and even if that was "tell me if you're a Darkfriend", the victim would have to find reasons in herself to do so, not something someone as entrenched as Sorilea must be would do unless she was sure Verin was also a Darkfriend, which she couldn't be.

So with that in mind, it rather looks like we can dismiss the question of whether Verin compelled Sorilea entirely for the purposes of the question of whether Sorilea is a Darkfriend, since even if she had compelled her, there's no reason to think it would have revealed Sorilea's allegiance.

The second point is more interesting. The only reason I can see to leave someone isolated like that would be to protect her against identification by someone who might be an infiltrator, i.e. Verin specifically. It would appear the Shadow wasn't particularly worried about its agents turning on it with many other highly placed Darkfriends, so if Sorilea was given such an order, it must have been with a specific purpose in mind. Note, however, that Sorilea apparently didn't reveal herself (if she is a DF) to Elza or to Semirhage, assuming she could have done, so she might conceivably have been placed among the Aiel as a sort of sleeper agent, with instructions to reveal herself only when absolutely necessary - perhaps upon further instruction, even. The Shadow is quite vindictive. It might suit them to have Darkfriends placed to cause damage even if they did lose the War in the end; Shai'tan was happy to taint Saidin after the Bore was temporarily sealed, after all.

Davian93
06-04-2012, 10:29 AM
The second point is more interesting. The only reason I can see to leave someone isolated like that would be to protect her against identification by someone who might be an infiltrator

I was thinking more along the lines of avoiding interference from another Chosen or DF plot, not a Verin type attack from within. Look at what happens when Mesaana's WT and Taim's BT when on different tangents ending up with the confrontation at Dumai's Wells. Maybe her handler had good reasons to have her avoid notice.

Zombie Sammael
06-04-2012, 10:34 AM
I was thinking more along the lines of avoiding interference from another Chosen or DF plot, not a Verin type attack from within. Look at what happens when Mesaana's WT and Taim's BT when on different tangents ending up with the confrontation at Dumai's Wells. Maybe her handler had good reasons to have her avoid notice.

I can see your thinking there. If that was her requirement, I expect her "handler" would be Moridin or Demandred. I'm wondering if there's a correlation between the successful DFs and the more successful Chosen. For example, for all she was caught recently, Mesaana did very well; her underling was Alviarin, who is possibly around Taim's level for competence and success. On the other hand, Liandrin and her 13 (who seem to have got lost in the plot somewhere) were rubbish, and worked for Moghedien (also rubbish).

Terez
06-04-2012, 10:40 AM
They were rubbish when they worked for Mesaana, too. And I don't think anyone approaches Taim's level of competence.

Lupusdeusest
06-04-2012, 10:47 AM
Verin did miss some pretty blatant DFs in the TAS, from memory - Evi etc. If fandom can pick up on Evi (I have to find where I saw this, but it's after midnight here) but not Verin... I say it is still possible Verin could have missed Sori.
I may be restating what has already been said above, but I think it is worth it - Verin's woven Compulsionis only really worth the risk when laid after/during another weave on the victim. Verin is quite skilled enough verbally to do any manipulating to a mid-level thus.
Re Nakomi - That is after her time with the Aiel. I dare say she would have had time to pick up what she knew then and dance the conversation to keep with what she knew. But that is another thread.

Grig
06-04-2012, 11:15 AM
Compulsion or no Compulsion, Verin would have found Sorilea out.

Crazy, insane fanon of the worst order.

Verin had 70 years to sort out the Blacks among the Aes Sedai. She still missed a good number, that we know of, including one of the Forsaken. Do you think she considers Sorilea more of a threat than Mesaana, especially given how Third Age Aes Sedai all but Deify Second Age channelers?

She missed several Aes Sedai over a 70 year study. But in the 6 months she has had to look at the Aiel, it's a given that she would have been able to identify any high-ranking DFs there? Not buying it.

Terez
06-04-2012, 11:22 AM
Verin did miss some pretty blatant DFs in the TAS, from memory - Evi etc. If fandom can pick up on Evi (I have to find where I saw this, but it's after midnight here) but not Verin... I say it is still possible Verin could have missed Sori.
I guess you're talking about Evanellein? The only reason we picked up on her is because she was talking openly in the Hall about pulling Elaida down, after Alviarin was humbled. (Or that's the reason I suspected her, anyway; I can't recall anyone else suspecting her at all.)

Weiramon
06-04-2012, 01:44 PM
Burn my soul, it's clear this Mathwin woman imagined meeting others sworn to the Shadow - perhaps in her dreams - and has flung about false accusations.

Of course, if one she dreamt of was cloaked head to toe, this Mathwin woman would not know whom to falsely accuse.

Rand al'Fain
06-04-2012, 01:50 PM
Burn my soul, it's clear this Mathwin woman imagined meeting others sworn to the Shadow - perhaps in her dreams - and has flung about false accusations.

Of course, if one she dreamt of was cloaked head to toe, this Mathwin woman would not know whom to falsely accuse.

Oh, there you are. You're long cloak just got done at the cleaners. Will that be Andoran or Tairen silver crowns?

Weiramon
06-04-2012, 02:04 PM
Pshaw! As if the cloak would be sullied.

Why, those who are skilled can ride into battle on a mud soaked field and remain pristine.

Terez
06-04-2012, 02:26 PM
Damn, still can't rep you.

fionwe1987
06-04-2012, 06:30 PM
Crazy, insane fanon of the worst order.

Verin had 70 years to sort out the Blacks among the Aes Sedai. She still missed a good number, that we know of,
A good number? She missed three in the camp, and Evanellin is indicated in the Tower. That's high accuracy.
including one of the Forsaken.
That was more a matter of time, and time spent away from the Tower. Had Verin been able to investigate more, she'd have discovered her identity. Her conversation with Egwene makes that clear enough.
Do you think she considers Sorilea more of a threat than Mesaana, especially given how Third Age Aes Sedai all but Deify Second Age channelers?
The one time we saw Verin face a Foresaken, she showed not the slightest bit of awe. When speaking of them to Egwene, she called them children... Heady praise indeed, eh?
She missed several Aes Sedai over a 70 year study.
None of their leaders, though. And none who were obviously suspicious.
But in the 6 months she has had to look at the Aiel, it's a given that she would have been able to identify any high-ranking DFs there? Not buying it.
Why ever not? Missing 5-6 out of 200 secret agents is hardly proof that a top agent will be missed!

Davian93
06-04-2012, 06:32 PM
It is proof of her not being infallible though...which is the point being made.

Grig
06-04-2012, 06:45 PM
The one time we saw Verin face a Foresaken, she showed not the slightest bit of awe. When speaking of them to Egwene, she called them children... Heady praise indeed, eh?

/facepalm. She thinks they act like children. That doesn't mean they couldn't squash her or the Dragon Reborn like a bug if they could corner them in an appropriate trap. Children can be dangerous, and Verin has no reason not to believe they can tie her and most modern AS into knots with the Power. That is the Deification I was talking about. One doesn't have to respect a Deity to be scared of them or think they represent a threat to one's safety.

A good number? She missed three in the camp, and Evanellin is indicated in the Tower. That's high accuracy.

And the 1/3rd of Aes Sedai that aren't in the Tower at any given time? Your bolding of that we know of swings just as well the other way.

Why ever not? Missing 5-6 out of 200 secret agents is hardly proof that a top agent will be missed!

A top agent from a group that Verin didn't really even know existed as of a few months ago? Seems like a reasonable enough assumption. She knows nothing about the Aiel culturally. All the red flags she's familiar with don't really apply. She's had a few months to figure out what makes them tick. I would expect her Darkfriend detection rate (if she was doing such geared towards the Aiel) to be pretty piss-poor, unless they flashed her their gang signs. Seriously. 70 years with a people one lives among, compared to a few months with people who might as well be from another planet. You're fanwanking pretty crazily, here.

Cortar
06-05-2012, 05:46 PM
A good number? She missed three in the camp, and Evanellin is indicated in the Tower. That's high accuracy.

That was more a matter of time, and time spent away from the Tower. Had Verin been able to investigate more, she'd have discovered her identity. Her conversation with Egwene makes that clear enough.

The one time we saw Verin face a Foresaken, she showed not the slightest bit of awe. When speaking of them to Egwene, she called them children... Heady praise indeed, eh?

None of their leaders, though. And none who were obviously suspicious.

Why ever not? Missing 5-6 out of 200 secret agents is hardly proof that a top agent will be missed!

Sorry but your entire argument is flawed. Even if Verin caught every single one of the black Ajah, its still illogical to assume that since she didn't catch Sorilea she can't be a darkfriend.

Terez
06-05-2012, 05:52 PM
I don't know that we can even assume she didn't know Sorilea was a Darkfriend:
She suppressed a sigh. For one thing, she could not truly like seeing sisters treated so, whatever the reasons or need, and for another, it was obvious that a fair number of the Wise Ones wanted... What? For her to know that being Aes Sedai counted for nothing here? Ridiculous. That had been made abundantly clear days ago. Perhaps that she could be put into a black robe, too? For the time she thought she was safe from that, at least, but the Wise Ones hid a number of secrets she had yet to puzzle out, the smallest of them how their hierarchy worked. Very much the smallest, yet life and a whole skin lay wrapped inside that one. Women who gave commands sometimes took them from the very women they had been commanding earlier, and then later it was turned about again, all without rhyme or reason that she could see. No one ever ordered Sorilea, though, and in that might lie safety. Of a sort.
But, just because she might have known still doesn't necessarily mean she should have killed her.

Cortar
06-05-2012, 06:17 PM
I don't know that we can even assume she didn't know Sorilea was a Darkfriend:

But, just because she might have known still doesn't necessarily mean she should have killed her.

Im just waiting for the "Verin Compelled Sorilea" crowd to claim that that paragraph, especially the "safety of a sort" line, further proves their point.

Zombie Sammael
06-05-2012, 06:47 PM
Im just waiting for the "Verin Compelled Sorilea" crowd to claim that that paragraph, especially the "safety of a sort" line, further proves their point.

It might be further evidence that she did, actually, but as I already explained, the question is irrelevant to the discussion of whether she's a darkfriend; compelling Sorilea would not help Verin know.

Terez
06-05-2012, 07:13 PM
Im just waiting for the "Verin Compelled Sorilea" crowd to claim that that paragraph, especially the "safety of a sort" line, further proves their point.
I don't think so. The compulsion is still implausible for a number of reasons, and this can be explained by either 1) Sorilea knows Verin is a Darkfriend and for the moment has orders to leave her alone, or 2) Sorilea has decided to make a distinction between those who captured Rand and those who merely brought along a few extras and fought with them against the Shaido, albeit for their own selfish purposes....and Verin has reason to believe that Sorilea will continue to insist on that distinction short of a truly major mishap.

I still wonder who helped Katerine escape. A Wise One and two Aiel guards were poisoned, and the gai'shain who brought them the poisoned drink had his throat cut. That makes me think that it had to be a Wise One who helped her escape. The Wise Ones have collective gai'shain, but it seems to me that other gai'shain serve the person who took them in the first place. The Wise Ones gain them by trading things, and they seem to share them. A gai'shain would probably not bring the prisoners a drink for anyone but a Wise One, and the gai'shain was obviously killed so that he couldn't tell anyone who sent him with the poisoned drink.

Now, obviously there are lots of Wise Ones, and this doesn't necessarily point to Sorilea, but I don't think it could be just anyone. It has to be a Wise One. It's also worth noting that Aeron warned Verin not to mention Katerine's escape to Rand, supposedly because it would cause him undue stress. Did that order come from Aeron, or from higher up?

Terez
06-05-2012, 07:21 PM
The door to the hall opened to admit Verin and Sorilea. The leathery, white-haired Aiel woman handed something small to Verin that the Brown tucked into her belt pouch. Verin was wearing a flowered brooch on her simple bronze-colored dress, the first jewelry Cadsuane had ever seen on her aside from her Great Serpent ring.

"That will help you sleep," Sorilea said, "but remember, just three drops in water or one in wine. A little more, and you might sleep a day or longer. Much more, and you will not wake. There is no taste to warn you, so you must be careful."

So Verin was having trouble sleeping, too. Cadsuane had not had a good night's rest since the boy fled the Sun Palace. If she did not find one soon, she thought she might bite someone. Nesune and the others were eyeing Sorilea uneasily. The boy had made them apprentice themselves to the Wise Ones, and they had learned that the Aiel women took that very seriously. One snap of Sorilea's bony fingers could end their idle morning.
.

fionwe1987
06-05-2012, 08:05 PM
/facepalm. She thinks they act like children. That doesn't mean they couldn't squash her or the Dragon Reborn like a bug if they could corner them in an appropriate trap. Children can be dangerous, and Verin has no reason not to believe they can tie her and most modern AS into knots with the Power. That is the Deification I was talking about. One doesn't have to respect a Deity to be scared of them or think they represent a threat to one's safety.
:rolleyes: That's the most absurd definition of deification I've ever heard. She knows they're so powerful and knowledgeable they can easily overcome her in combat, so she's deifying them? This is acceptance of s simple fact, not an exaggerated sense of their abilities.

And the 1/3rd of Aes Sedai that aren't in the Tower at any given time? Your bolding of that we know of swings just as well the other way.
It doesn't. Unless you think there's some reason Verin missed a higher proportion of BA among those who sat out than among the Rebels or the Tower AS, I fail to see why there would be many more than 3-4 of those who sat out the Rebellion who Verin missed. And that's assuming as many BA sat out the Rebellion as the non-BA sisters did. The Rebellion was a BA plot, with major BA members near the helm of both sides. Why would Alviarin and Sheriam waste resources sending too many BA to sit in the sidelines? In fact, that's the trend revealed in Verin's list too:

There were Black sisters among the rebel Aes Sedai and those of the White Tower, and even some among those unaligned who had been away from the Tower during the split.

A top agent from a group that Verin didn't really even know existed as of a few months ago? Seems like a reasonable enough assumption. She knows nothing about the Aiel culturally. All the red flags she's familiar with don't really apply.
What does that mean? I doubt Verin looks for damning books in praise of Shai'tan and blasphemous language to detect Darkfriends! She isn't a Whitecloak. She looks for suspicious activity. How do you think she had an extensive list of Darkfriends, their Circles, and Circle leaders? Its not like she spent months in each place, but nor could she simply demand answers from other DFs. Nor would she go about randomly torturing innocents so that she may hit upon a DF by chance and then extract info on his Circle.

She looks for suspicious signs, like involvement in a clear DF plot, then she investigates more, she probably tortures or compels confirmed DFs, thus finding more.

Now, take Katerine's escape. Since Verin knew her to be BA, she would have suspected a DF plot released her. Which meant she would have investigated (she certainly seemed alarmed and interested enough). She'd have asked around, maybe used DF signs (which clearly exist in common between AS and Aiel, since Katerine clearly used them to let an Aiel DF know she was a DF too) to communicate with low level DFs, then she would have worked her way up.

With Sorilea, she'd obviously have looked closely because the woman holds so much power. She did the same with Elaida and Cadsuane.

She's had a few months to figure out what makes them tick. I would expect her Darkfriend detection rate (if she was doing such geared towards the Aiel) to be pretty piss-poor, unless they flashed her their gang signs. Seriously. 70 years with a people one lives among, compared to a few months with people who might as well be from another planet. You're fanwanking pretty crazily, here.
:rolleyes: This assumes that culture has anything to do with DF activity, which makes no sense. Seriously, if someone is involved in something like Katarine's escape, they can be Martians, and it would still be sign of their being a Darkfriend.

Sorry but your entire argument is flawed. Even if Verin caught every single one of the black Ajah, its still illogical to assume that since she didn't catch Sorilea she can't be a darkfriend.
That's hardly the only bit of evidence being used. Its just one significant piece.

fionwe1987
06-05-2012, 08:20 PM
From the same chapter:

"She is ... formidable," Verin murmured. "I am very glad she is on our side. If she is."
Cadsuane gave her a sharp look. "You have the appearance of a woman with something to say that
you don't want to. About Sorilea?" That alliance was very vaguely denned. Friendship or no friendship, she and the Wise One still might turn out to be aiming at different goals.
"Not that," the stout little woman sighed. Despite a square face, tilting her head to one side made her look like a very plump sparrow. "I know it was not my business, Cadsuane, but Bera and Kiruna were getting nowhere with our guests, so I had a little talk alone with Shalon. After a little gentle questioning, she spilled out the whole story, and Ailil confirmed everything once she realized I already knew. Soon after the Sea Folk first arrived here, Ailil approached Shalon hoping to learn what they wanted with young al'Thor. For her part, Shalon wanted to learn whatever she could about him, and about the situation here. That led to meetings, which led to friendship, which led to them becoming pillow friends. As much from loneliness as anything else, I suspect. In any case, that was what they were hiding more than their mutual snooping."
"They put up with days under the question to hide that?" Cadsuane said incredulously. Bera and
Kiruna had had the pair howling!

So, Sorilea's trustworthiness was something Verin did question. And the passage also reveals Verin was hardly going to be thrown off by alien customs of unknown nature. She managed what days of questioning could not by simply prattling to Shalon.

And Verin spent considerable time in the Aiel tents:

Verin began to make an observation, but fell silent for the Aiel woman. Strangely, Verin had taken to her own enforced apprenticeship like a heron to the marsh. She spent more time in the Aiel camp than out of it.

One reason, of course, was to compel the sisters to follow Rand. But do we seriously want to believe that despite her doubts on Sorilea's trustworthiness, Verin never investigated her?

eht slat meit
06-05-2012, 08:37 PM
One reason, of course, was to compel the sisters to follow Rand. But do we seriously want to believe that despite her doubts on Sorilea's trustworthiness, Verin never investigated her?

If she did, it was an investigation on Sorilea's terms and Sorilea's alone. Bear in mind that it's an enforced -apprenticeship-, and if I recall, the apprentices don't get to consort with Wise Ones on a whim. They do what they are told, without question. Certainly in line with Verin's chameleon-like and unassuming personality, but that offers few opportunities to seek out fellow Darkies.

Had she actually tried Compulsion on Sorilea, I expect she'd have ended up with a knife between her ribs and a shallow grave.

Cortar
06-05-2012, 09:10 PM
That's hardly the only bit of evidence being used. Its just one significant piece.


One significant piece that means nothing, logically.

Ishara
06-06-2012, 09:10 AM
If she did, it was an investigation on Sorilea's terms and Sorilea's alone. Bear in mind that it's an enforced -apprenticeship-, and if I recall, the apprentices don't get to consort with Wise Ones on a whim. They do what they are told, without question. Certainly in line with Verin's chameleon-like and unassuming personality, but that offers few opportunities to seek out fellow Darkies.

Had she actually tried Compulsion on Sorilea, I expect she'd have ended up with a knife between her ribs and a shallow grave.

Mmmm, can we avoid calling Darkfriends that, please?

GonzoTheGreat
06-06-2012, 09:29 AM
Mmmm, can we avoid calling Darkfriends that, please?
Would this be an appropriate time to point out that if you become a Darkfriend, then you're DFF?

Grig
06-06-2012, 11:29 AM
She knows they're so powerful and knowledgeable they can easily overcome her in combat, so she's deifying them?

But they attribute strengths to Second Age channelers that they don't have. They assume they're in a completely different league strength-wise, when really there are channelers in the current time that can hold their own, and the Third Age has innovations the Second Age couldn't dream of.

While Verin has been dissuaded of their wisdom, she has no reason to question their puissance(even though as the reader we do, as the Forsaken seems to consist at least 75% of mouthbreathers).

But then, I'm now remembering why I put you on my ignore list in the first place. Have a nice thread!

fionwe1987
06-06-2012, 01:48 PM
But they attribute strengths to Second Age channelers that they don't have. They assume they're in a completely different league strength-wise, when really there are channelers in the current time that can hold their own, and the Third Age has innovations the Second Age couldn't dream of.
Where has Verin shown any signs of this? You're lumping her with the unexceptional Aes Sedai PoV, whereas she has shown herself to be anything but.
While Verin has been dissuaded of their wisdom, she has no reason to question their puissance(even though as the reader we do, as the Forsaken seems to consist at least 75% of mouthbreathers).
So this is why, when faced with a powerful Foresken in weird, fantastic attire, she thought "a captured Foresaken would be interesting", instead of beating a hasty retreat? I'm sold...
But then, I'm now remembering why I put you on my ignore list in the first place. Have a nice thread!
I'm always amazed when people twirl their mustaches because they put someone on an ignore list. Its a sign of intellectual weakness. Continue burying your head in the sand. If you believe what you wrote was actually true, defend it. If you can't, do us the favor of not bothering in the first place. This passive aggressive sniping, followed by a hasty retreat, is ridiculous.

DahLliA
06-06-2012, 04:34 PM
I'm always amazed when people twirl their mustaches because they put someone on an ignore list. Its a sign of intellectual weakness. Continue burying your head in the sand. If you believe what you wrote was actually true, defend it. If you can't, do us the favor of not bothering in the first place. This passive aggressive sniping, followed by a hasty retreat, is ridiculous.

Gotta say I agree.

Pretty childish behavior.

I can understand putting people on ignore, but why act like it's the "cool" thing to do?

Just ignore them and move on.

OT(or almost I guess): I never thought Verin compelled Sorilea(or any other WO). Both because it's very unlikely she'd manage with her crappy version and because I'm convinced she could manage to manipulate them without using the power.

As for Sorilea being a DF. I'm not convinced. I can easily see her not telling anyone(except other WOs, which I'm not convinced she didn't) about Min because "it's WO business".

The whole thing with the sad bracelet is better evidence IMO, but even with that she's only in my "maybe"-category.

Hope I got my double-negatives and paranthesises right there :p

Terez
06-06-2012, 05:55 PM
I can understand putting people on ignore, but why act like it's the "cool" thing to do?
It's more about explaining to them why you aren't responding to their posts any more (assuming you aren't the curious type that always clicks the 'view post' button anyway).

As for Sorilea being a DF. I'm not convinced.
Not surprising. :p

Terez
06-07-2012, 01:07 AM
The more I think about it, the more I'm sure these two bolded bits are connected:
She suppressed a sigh. For one thing, she could not truly like seeing sisters treated so, whatever the reasons or need, and for another, it was obvious that a fair number of the Wise Ones wanted... What? For her to know that being Aes Sedai counted for nothing here? Ridiculous. That had been made abundantly clear days ago. Perhaps that she could be put into a black robe, too? For the time she thought she was safe from that, at least, but the Wise Ones hid a number of secrets she had yet to puzzle out, the smallest of them how their hierarchy worked. Very much the smallest, yet life and a whole skin lay wrapped inside that one. Women who gave commands sometimes took them from the very women they had been commanding earlier, and then later it was turned about again, all without rhyme or reason that she could see. No one ever ordered Sorilea, though, and in that might lie safety. Of a sort.

....Her thoughts raced, and none touched Turanna. Irgain’s stilling made her belly feel full of rancid grease, the Light knew. But what was the woman doing grinding grain? And dressed like the Aiel women! Had she been put to work just there so Verin could see? Foolish question; even with a ta’veren as strong as Rand al’Thor only a few miles away, there was some limit to the number of coincidences she would accept. Had she miscalculated? At worst, it could not be a large error. Only, small mistakes sometimes proved as fatal as large. How long could she hold out if Sorilea decided to break her? A distressingly short time, she suspected. In some ways, Sorilea was as hard as anyone she had ever met. And not a thing she could say that would stop it. A worry for another day. There was no point getting ahead of herself.
Sorilea is the source of her safety, such as it is, but she considers that she might have miscalculated. She doesn't understand how the Aiel hierarchy works, but she knows that Sorilea is at the top of it. I think the reason why she thinks that it could not be a very large error 'at worst' was that she didn't trust Sorilea's safety very far in the first place.

That's the nifty thing about Verin's double agency. It makes it difficult to really determine much from her thoughts on any given thing. When she hinted to Cadsuane that Sorilea might not be on their side, was she digging for hints that Cadsuane might be Black, or dropping hints to warn her? Or both? Not that it matters to Cadsuane; clearly she doesn't like hints.

"A very great gift," she said slowly. "I have nothing I can give you to compare."

This time, there was no doubt of the brief smile that flashed across Sorilea’s lips. She knew very well that Cadsuane was in her debt. Taking up the heavy golden pitcher with both hands, she carefully filled the small white cups. With plain water. She did not spill a drop.

"I offer you water oath," she said solemnly, picking up one of the cups. "By this, we are bound as one, to teach Rand al’Thor laughter and tears." She sipped, and Cadsuane imitated her.

"We are bound as one." And if their targets turned out not to be the same at all? She did not underestimate Sorilea as ally or opponent, but Cadsuane knew which target had to be struck, at any cost.
I believe the last bit is foreshadowing of Cadsuane's death. Any cost, including that.

DahLliA
06-11-2012, 08:33 AM
It's more about explaining to them why you aren't responding to their posts any more (assuming you aren't the curious type that always clicks the 'view post' button anyway)./QUOTE]

Yeah. But what's wrong with a simple "Ignored"?

[QUOTE=Terez;191579]Not surprising. :p

The world needs sceptics. If we didn't exist no one would know when they were right :p

Lupusdeusest
06-11-2012, 09:22 AM
Yeah. But what's wrong with a simple "Ignored"?



It gets boring...

newyorkersedai
06-11-2012, 10:38 AM
Had she actually tried Compulsion on Sorilea, I expect she'd have ended up with a knife between her ribs and a shallow grave.

Nice! Also, true.

I think there isn't enough evidence. Has Rand seen Sorilea since becoming hypermegabuddhaRand? I think we'd see her reaction then and there...

frenchie
06-11-2012, 10:43 AM
Brandon Sanderson told me he "thinks" Rand has seen her since his epiphany.

Terez
06-11-2012, 03:59 PM
I'm not sure it makes a difference. For one, Rand had a hint from Verin about Weiramon. For another, he had to line them up and stare them down to be able to tell which were Darkfriends, and even then it only seems to be because they couldn't meet his eyes. They were hardly running and screaming. And finally, if that sort of revulsion can be overcome, then Sorilea can overcome it. She's probably one of the strongest-willed characters in the series, and Weiramon was never that. Anaiyella much less so.

The Unreasoner
06-11-2012, 04:54 PM
I'm not sure it makes a difference. For one, Rand had a hint from Verin about Weiramon. For another, he had to line them up and stare them down to be able to tell which were Darkfriends, and even then it only seems to be because they couldn't meet his eyes. They were hardly running and screaming. And finally, if that sort of revulsion can be overcome, then Sorilea can overcome it. She's probably one of the strongest-willed characters in the series, and Weiramon was never that. Anaiyella much less so.
You forget Torkumen. And his wife. Was Rand tipped off about them too? Did he even know where they were? Who they were? That they existed at all?

Zombie Sammael
06-11-2012, 05:16 PM
You forget Torkumen. And his wife. Was Rand tipped off about them too? Did he even know where they were? Who they were? That they existed at all?

The situation with Torkumen is notably different though. Rand was mad and channelling huge amounts of the Power. It was more than likely an effect of that, as opposed to the relatively sedate scene with Weiramon et al. Also, Torkumen was actively serving the Shadow at the time through his current deeds, whereas Weiramon was just watching at the time.

Terez
06-11-2012, 05:23 PM
You forget Torkumen. And his wife.
Do you really think I forgot? Or are you just trolling me?

The Unreasoner
06-11-2012, 05:39 PM
The situation with Torkumen is notably different though. Rand was mad and channelling huge amounts of the Power. It was more than likely an effect of that, as opposed to the relatively sedate scene with Weiramon et al. Also, Torkumen was actively serving the Shadow at the time through his current deeds, whereas Weiramon was just watching at the time.
The only thing different is the intensity of the effect. Maybe the massive amount of saidin channeled was responsible, maybe some other mechanism was. But they were qualitatively similar.

The watching/serving point seems a little silly. So Torkumen was doing some serious Darkfriending while Weiramon was just passively serving the Shadow? And even if this point is valid: if Sorilea is a Darkfriend, she's doing some serious Darkfriending.
Do you really think I forgot? Or are you just trolling me?
Obviously you forgot to mention it. It's relevant. And if you use the word 'troll' to me one more time, or make another useless post with no intention behind it other than starting something, I'm putting you on the ignore list until AMoL comes out. You are the troll here.

The Unreasoner
06-11-2012, 05:48 PM
Brandon Sanderson told me he "thinks" Rand has seen her since his epiphany.
This is interesting. If Rand's 'Darkfriend-blinding' effect was inconsistent, why bother equivocating?

Terez
06-11-2012, 05:49 PM
Obviously you forgot to mention it.
No, I didn't. As your cohort pointed out, it's an entirely different situation, and it has a very easily-grapsed explanation.

And if you use the word 'troll' to me one more time, or make another useless post with no intention behind it other than starting something, I'm putting you on the ignore list until AMoL comes out.I would much rather you ignore me than troll me. And that is what it is, and you need to recognize it. You could have phrased your post something like, 'Well what about when this happened?' but you chose to say 'You forgot' because you know that I very rarely forget anything and you knew it would get under my skin. That's trolling. Even better would have been if you'd anticipated my responses, and I believe you are entirely capable of doing, but you didn't want to get to the heart of the issue—you wanted to troll me.

You are the troll here.No, first blood is usually yours. Saying otherwise doesn't make you right.

The Unreasoner
06-11-2012, 05:58 PM
No, I didn't. As your cohort pointed out, it's an entirely different situation, and it has a very easily-grapsed explanation.
No. 'He's channeling a shitload of Power' is not a very good explanation. By your own metric. The same reasoning you used against my PLEventettes ideas applies here as well. We have seen people channel lots of Power before. We have seen Rand channel lots of Power before. We have seen Rand channel lots of Power in the presence of Darkfriends before. So, like you and ZS have been telling me all along, we need to make arguments for things that have evidence and precedence. Supposing a hypothetical process beyond what we can see makes for a lousy explanation.

Terez
06-11-2012, 06:06 PM
No. 'He's channeling a shitload of Power' is not a very good explanation.
Whether or not it is a good explanation, this subject comes up often enough that you could have anticipated my responses.

By your own metric. The same reasoning you used against my PLEventettes ideas applies here as well. We have seen people channel lots of Power before. We have seen Rand channel lots of Power before. We have seen Rand channel lots of Power in the presence of Darkfriends before.Not since his epiphany.

Incidentally, someone asked Brandon if Rand channeling "Light" at the Eye of the World and Rand channeling "Light" at Maradon had any significance. Brandon said (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=36#5) yes. I have no idea what he was getting at, honestly, but I thought it worth mentioning. When Rand channeled at the end of TEOTW, he didn't admit it to himself, so he thought of it as the Light, and thought of his actions as being guided by the Light, too. He's very good at ignoring things he doesn't want to see, but he finally admitted it to himself when he was telling Moiraine about it, even though he tried to tell her it was the Light pulling him along, so it didn't count. Or something.

"But it wasn't me," he finished. "The Light ... pulled me along. It wasn't really me. Doesn't that make any difference?"

The Unreasoner
06-11-2012, 06:15 PM
Whether or not it is a good explanation, this subject comes up often enough that you could have anticipated my responses.
The fact that your response was predictable doesn't seem to make it any stronger.

Not since his epiphany.
The TEotW scene you are about to refer to is before the Epiphany also. You make an awful lot of assumptions to convict Sorilea. Occam would not be happy.
Incidentally, someone asked Brandon if Rand channeling "Light" at the Eye of the World and Rand channeling "Light" at Maradon had any significance. Brandon said (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=36#5) yes. I have no idea what he was getting at, honestly, but I thought it worth mentioning. When Rand channeled at the end of TEOTW, he didn't admit it to himself, so he thought of it as the Light, and thought of his actions as being guided by the Light, too. He's very good at ignoring things he doesn't want to see, but he finally admitted it to himself when he was telling Moiraine about it, even though he tried to tell her it was the Light pulling him along, so it didn't count. Or something.

Great.

ZS has posted on this a number of times, the relationship between the Dragon, eyes, and Darkfriends. Either we have multiple independent causes for the incidents, or we have one that may fluctuate in intensity. Since nearly everything else fluctuates (ta'veren, for instance), which one sounds like the better explanation?

Zombie Sammael
06-11-2012, 06:17 PM
The only thing different is the intensity of the effect.

Exactly my point. Under sedate circumstances, the effect was relatively small and sedate itself. Under more extreme circumstances, it was more... noticeable.

No, I didn't. As your cohort pointed out, it's an entirely different situation, and it has a very easily-grapsed explanation.

(emphasis mine) I've agreed with you against The Unreasoner lately more often than I've sided with him. On top of that, I spend more time chatting with Lupus and Tomp these days than I do with him. The Unreasoner and I are friends but please drop this idea that we're Troy and Abed or something because we're not. It's a similar situation to you and Marie so I know you can empathise.

Terez
06-11-2012, 06:18 PM
The fact that your response was predictable doesn't seem to make it any stronger.
Whether it does or not, that was not the point, and you know it.

Terez
06-11-2012, 06:20 PM
(emphasis mine) I've agreed with you against The Unreasoner lately more often than I've sided with him.
I noticed. It happens often enough recently to seem like tag-teaming, conscious or no.

Zombie Sammael
06-11-2012, 06:22 PM
I noticed. It happens often enough recently to seem like tag-teaming, conscious or no.

A tag team in which one side argues against the other? Now you're just being weird and paranoid. Could you not just apologise to me like I apologised to you when I offended you?

The Unreasoner
06-11-2012, 06:24 PM
Whether it does or not, that was not the point, and you know it.
Okay.

I have a request:
Why don't you ignore me?

As you can see from my sig, the reverse is impossible. And I don't think anyone believes you see my posts as worth reading.

Not to mention I can hardly troll someone who can't see my posts.

Terez
06-11-2012, 06:26 PM
A tag team in which one side argues against the other? Now you're just being weird and paranoid. Could you not just apologise to me like I apologised to you when I offended you?
What have I done that requires an apology? Call you his cohort? It's true, regardless of which people you talk to outside of TL. You and he are friends, and you discuss WoT on these boards with each other far more often than you do with anyone else, and often make references to private conversations you've had. I haven't insulted you.

Terez
06-11-2012, 06:29 PM
Okay.

I have a request:
Why don't you ignore me?
You are alright sometimes. When you're not doing your best to get on my nerves. ;) I'm glad you changed your sig, though; I adblocked all your images on the other one, but it was still annoyingly long. And if it makes you feel any better, I sympathize; there are several people I'd like to ignore but can't. Perhaps you can try doing it the traditional way.

Zombie Sammael
06-11-2012, 06:32 PM
What have I done that requires an apology? Call you his cohort? It's true, regardless of which people you talk to outside of TL. You and he are friends, and you discuss WoT on these boards with each other far more often than you do with anyone else, and often make references to private conversations you've had. I haven't insulted you.

You could have just called me Zombie instead of defining me by my relationships with others. I find that belittling. I'm sure you don't like being belittled, so why would you think I'd be okay with it? Think about how it makes you feel when people treat you and Marie that way (and you and her actually have an offline relationship); I know you don't like it because we just had a flamewar over it. It's also untrue that we discuss WOT more than with anyone else; I discuss WOT more with Lupus and (Light help me) Felix than I do The Unreasoner. That doesn't change the fact that we're friends but I dislike just being lumped in as some sort of extension of him. :mad:

The Unreasoner
06-11-2012, 06:40 PM
She knows Marie IRL? Is Marie her mom or something?

Terez
06-11-2012, 06:41 PM
You could have just called me Zombie instead of defining me by my relationships with others. I find that belittling. I'm sure you don't like being belittled, so why would you think I'd be okay with it?
I don't think of it as belittling. But now that you've said you find it belittling, I will try to avoid it in the future.

Think about how it makes you feel when people treat you and Marie that wayI don't mind it when people treat us as friends; that is what we are. The situation with yks was different, and started with something very hurtful that she said on the mod board during a past drama. I probably wouldn't have taken the same 'joke' the same way from another person. She understands that, I think, which is why she apologized.

I know you don't like it because we just had a flamewar over it. It's also untrue that we discuss WOT more than with anyone else; I discuss WOT more with Lupus and (Light help me) Felix than I do The Unreasoner.On these boards, I believe I said. As far as I'm aware, Lupus doesn't post much in WoT discussion here at all. Discussing WoT with Felix is like discussing WoT with a voicebot that has the books memorized, most of the time. ;)

That doesn't change the fact that we're friends but I dislike just being lumped in as some sort of extension of him. :mad:The point of the 'cohort' comment was that you, his friend, had already explained it. And I doubted that the two of you had never had the conversation before, which emphasized the trollish nature of Unreasoner's post. It wasn't meant to lump you in with him at all, other than in the relevant way.

The Unreasoner
06-11-2012, 06:43 PM
And I doubted that the two of you had never had the conversation before, which emphasized the trollish nature of Unreasoner's post.
We hadn't.

Terez
06-11-2012, 06:44 PM
I still find that hard to believe. I'm betting that, if I took the time, I could find an example on these forums. Not sure I care enough, though.

Davian93
06-11-2012, 07:40 PM
Rand at Maradon is evidence that he's different, special compared to other Channelers. He's clothed in the Light and has been since his epiphany.

Rand=Creator's Avatar.

maleshub
06-11-2012, 10:13 PM
Rand at Maradon is evidence that he's different, special compared to other Channelers. He's clothed in the Light and has been since his epiphany.

Rand=Creator's Avatar.

Which, to me, makes him less believable than pre-weeping on his grave Rand. My personal preference would have been for Nynaeve to remove the DO's taint from his brain Naeff-style. But that's just me!

fionwe1987
06-11-2012, 11:40 PM
I'm not sure it makes a difference. For one, Rand had a hint from Verin about Weiramon. For another, he had to line them up and stare them down to be able to tell which were Darkfriends, and even then it only seems to be because they couldn't meet his eyes. They were hardly running and screaming. And finally, if that sort of revulsion can be overcome, then Sorilea can overcome it. She's probably one of the strongest-willed characters in the series, and Weiramon was never that. Anaiyella much less so.
Now, what I'm going to say here isn't an argument against Sorilea being a DF. It isn't even really an indication against it. But...

The strongest willed Shadow-affiliates we've seen have been Ishamael and Graendal. They're strong willed compared to other Foresaken in the way Cadsuane and Sorilea are strong willed compared to legions of tough, stubborn, headstrong AS and WO.

Both of them went over to the DO for philosophical reasons.

Now, this doesn't mean that Sorilea went over for philosophical reasons too (if she did, indeed, go over). But what do you think her reasons were? Ultimate power? That just seems not to fit. She seems too clever to think she can get such power, yet too strong willed to settle for ruling a few nations or the Aiel under a Foresaken overlord.

Is it contempt for the rest of the world? They're all just too incompetent? Is it jealousy over weaker OP strength (which doesn't seem to fit either)? Is it despair for the Aiel? An Ishamael-like desire to see Creation destroyed?

Thoughts?

Terez
06-12-2012, 12:09 AM
Now, what I'm going to say here isn't an argument against Sorilea being a DF. It isn't even really an indication against it. But...

The strongest willed Shadow-affiliates we've seen have been Ishamael and Graendal. They're strong willed compared to other Foresaken in the way Cadsuane and Sorilea are strong willed compared to legions of tough, stubborn, headstrong AS and WO.
When it comes to strength of will, I'd put Sorilea against Graendal any day. Graendal was cowed by Sammael, of all people.

But what do you think her reasons were?It's hard to say, but the same goes for many Darkfriends. She might have envied those who were stronger in the power; she might simply enjoy killing or something along those lines.

Is it contempt for the rest of the world? They're all just too incompetent?I could see this too.

Is it jealousy over weaker OP strength (which doesn't seem to fit either)?Why don't you think it fits? Just because it's not part of Aiel hierarchy doesn't mean it's not important to her, personally.

I've given up on trying to decide why most people went to the Shadow; I think it's one of the more unrealistic elements of the story. Though I suppose it was different before people realized the Day of Return would come in their lifetimes. Sheriam apparently wasn't happy about that; I'm sure she's far from the only one.

The Unreasoner
06-12-2012, 12:16 AM
I think a character of Sorilea's importance would demand a good reason to switch sides. From a literary standpoint.


On another note...
Am I the only one who thinks it's weird so many DF didn't expect they'd live to see the Day of Return? I mean, they want to live forever, right? Some of them already expect to. How so many were surprised to be personally involved with the War of Power is beyond me.

Terez
06-12-2012, 12:28 AM
I think a character of Sorilea's importance would demand a good reason to switch sides.
I honestly don't think there is such a thing. But perhaps she has a reason that will pass your judgment.

eht slat meit
06-12-2012, 12:29 AM
I think a character of Sorilea's importance would demand a good reason to switch sides. From a literary standpoint.


The best reason of all: vengeance.

Sorilea's a woman of exceptional intelligence, one who has gotten to her rank by manipulation and brow-beating, and she's probably much like Cadsuane in perceiving herself as a shepherd of her people, authoritarian in her approach but protecting them.

Here comes Rand Al'car'a'carn, a half-Aiel outlander destined to destroy the Aiel, saving only a remnant of a remnant. She is a believer in prophecy, and like those Aiel who have accepted what he brings, knows she cannot change that.

She can, however, make him pay for it with his life, and with that of his friends and allies. His servants will be debased and carefully controlled, his wives manipulated and monitored, any outside obligations met by the hands of lesser Aiel darkfriends, and when Rand has shed their blood, she will shed his.

Like Lanfear, she serves the Great Lord's ends only because he serves hers.

An explanation among many possible.

Terez
06-12-2012, 12:31 AM
I suspect she has been a Darkfriend for a long time, though I could be wrong.

fionwe1987
06-12-2012, 12:46 AM
When it comes to strength of will, I'd put Sorilea against Graendal any day. Graendal was cowed by Sammael, of all people.
Cowed is not exactly the word I would used. Sammael claimed he was all but offered Nae'blis. As Moridin says, that is a rational reason for Graendal to obey him. It is tactically sound, and fear of Sammael if this were true is reasonable. Its like how Cadsuane genuinely was afraid of Dark Rand, and retreated from his presence. That didn't mean she was cowed.
It's hard to say, but the same goes for many Darkfriends. She might have envied those who were stronger in the power; she might simply enjoy killing or something along those lines.
Yes, but there are no indications of that. I'm not saying we need to see her enjoying causing pain to later believe that as her motivation, but there are means for laying subtle clues, which RJ was a master of. Clues for these motives don't exist, and I expect they would be, for a character like Sorilea. She clearly isn't a run of the mill DF.
I could see this too.
It is the closest I can think of, but her interactions with Kiruna seemed genuine enough to make me doubt this.
Why don't you think it fits? Just because it's not part of Aiel hierarchy doesn't mean it's not important to her, personally.
Because in her one PoV, she specifically thinks of her weak strength, but there's neither bitterness nor anger associated with it. If it was a big enough deal to make her change over to the Shadow, I expect her to think on it at least.
I've given up on trying to decide why most people went to the Shadow;
Sorilea isn't most people, though. One of the major protagonists was almost her apprentice, and has a fairly strong relationship to her. Another major character almost considers her a friend. She's going to be one of the big reveal DFs, if she is one. Thinking of her motivations can bear fruit in other discussions than whether she is a DF at all or not (hypothesizing her plans, for example).

I think it's one of the more unrealistic elements of the story.
No more unrealistic than executives of Exxon mobile continuing to promote oil in the face of disaster for the human species, or tobacco companies lying despite a mountain of evidence linking smoking to tobacco.
Though I suppose it was different before people realized the Day of Return would come in their lifetimes. Sheriam apparently wasn't happy about that; I'm sure she's far from the only one.
True, but that doesn't jive with Sorilea does it?

Now the revenge idea... that actually works well. The Dragon must break all bonds and Break the world and make it anew. Which means he's going to leave behind a lot of unhappy people. Sorilea could be one of them.

Kimon
06-12-2012, 01:37 AM
Now the revenge idea... that actually works well. The Dragon must break all bonds and Break the world and make it anew. Which means he's going to leave behind a lot of unhappy people. Sorilea could be one of them.

Revenge seems very ephemeral, but perhaps it could be as simple as an unwillingness to truly accept a future wherein the Aiel would again follow the Way of the Leaf and to once again become chattel for the Aes Sedai. After all, she was the one who urged that the Wise Ones should join in battle against the Aes Sedai at the Wells, and later, seemed to not merely encourage a situation in which the Aes Sedai became the servants of the Wise Ones, as apprentices, but moreover at the very least clearly approved of Verin's plan to force the Aes Sedai to become dragonsworn. Does that sound like a woman who seems willing to have the Aiel once again become da'shain?

In any case, the real crux with whether or not Sorilea is a DF is that troublesome scene with the e've. Sorilea knew where Cadsuane had hidden it, and while she was not the only individual above suspicion in that scene wherein Cadsuane revealed its hiding place, she is clearly the most suspicious of that lot. So, if one thinks that the e've points to Sorilea, then one will obviously search for earlier hints. Her actions leading up to the Wells and thereafter her interactions with the Aes Sedai are still somewhat nebulous as to her allegiances, but as for her motivations, the above seems the most likely, at least to me.

fionwe1987
06-12-2012, 02:04 AM
In any case, the real crux with whether or not Sorilea is a DF is that troublesome scene with the e've. Sorilea knew where Cadsuane had hidden it, and while she was not the only individual above suspicion in that scene wherein Cadsuane revealed its hiding place, she is clearly the most suspicious of that lot. So, if one thinks that the e've points to Sorilea, then one will obviously search for earlier hints. Her actions leading up to the Wells and thereafter her interactions with the Aes Sedai are still somewhat nebulous as to her allegiances, but as for her motivations, the above seems the most likely, at least to me.
Let's return to the matter of the Domination Band:

Sorelia was far from the only one who knew that Cadsuane had custody of the DB. That was something several others knew, very likely including Elza as well.

What Sorelia did possibly know was that there was a ward on the place where it was stored. She can't have known what the ward was, since Cadsuane had inverted it. And Cadsuane never reset it in Sorilea's presence that we saw.

Now, we know this about this ward:

Instead, the weaves—inverted to be invisible—sprang out in twisting threads of Air and captured anyone in the room when the box was opened. Then another weave set out a large sound, imitating a hundred trumpets playing while lights flashed in the air to give the alarm. The weaves would also go off if anyone opened the box, moved it, or barely touched it with the most delicate thread of the One Power.
That last is important, since it explains why Brandon says Elza had been given the knowledge of several rare weaves. She would need those to get through a ward set to react to the slightest bit of the OP.

The question then becomes: how did they know such wards were present? Most people point the finger at Sorilea, but that makes no sense, since she never saw the ward. She's clever enough to have guessed at its presence, but so are many others. The only contribution Sorilea could have made is to tell someone there was a DB inside a box located in Cadsuane's room. But so could Bair, and, given that Myrdraal can sense the OP, Shaidar Haran could have pinpointed the box quite simply by entering Cadsuane's room. So this bit of evidence against Sorilea is weak to begin with.

The other "suspicious" circumstance offered is that Cadsuane was with the WO when the attack on Rand happened. Why this is proof of anything is beyond me. The Shadow could simply have killed Cadsuane if she was in her room, or she could have gone to the tents on her own. There's nothing against either of these options.

The Unreasoner
06-12-2012, 02:06 AM
Yes, but there are no indications of that. I'm not saying we need to see her enjoying causing pain to later believe that as her motivation, but there are means for laying subtle clues, which RJ was a master of. Clues for these motives don't exist, and I expect they would be, for a character like Sorilea. She clearly isn't a run of the mill DF.
Yup.
or tobacco companies lying despite a mountain of evidence linking smoking to tobacco.
lol. I wonder if my fiancee would have made me quit if she believed that tobacco didn't come into it.

Seriously though, the tobacco companies are the good guys. It's slimy fucks like Apple that are evil.

Kimon
06-12-2012, 02:32 AM
Let's return to the matter of the Domination Band:

Sorelia was far from the only one who knew that Cadsuane had custody of the DB. That was something several others knew, very likely including Elza as well.

What Sorelia did possibly know was that there was a ward on the place where it was stored. She can't have known what the ward was, since Cadsuane had inverted it. And Cadsuane never reset it in Sorilea's presence that we saw.

Now, we know this about this ward:


That last is important, since it explains why Brandon says Elza had been given the knowledge of several rare weaves. She would need those to get through a ward set to react to the slightest bit of the OP.

The question then becomes: how did they know such wards were present? Most people point the finger at Sorilea, but that makes no sense, since she never saw the ward. She's clever enough to have guessed at its presence, but so are many others. The only contribution Sorilea could have made is to tell someone there was a DB inside a box located in Cadsuane's room. But so could Bair, and, given that Myrdraal can sense the OP, Shaidar Haran could have pinpointed the box quite simply by entering Cadsuane's room. So this bit of evidence against Sorilea is weak to begin with.

The other "suspicious" circumstance offered is that Cadsuane was with the WO when the attack on Rand happened. Why this is proof of anything is beyond me. The Shadow could simply have killed Cadsuane if she was in her room, or she could have gone to the tents on her own. There's nothing against either of these options.

It was only Sorilea and Bair that accompanied Cadsuane to her room to see the location of the e've, and there just doesn't seem to be anything pointing to Bair. As for Elza, she obviously gave Semirhage the e've, but that doesn't mean that she knew anything about where it was hidden. The scene where Cadsuane revealed the e've was obviously meant to draw suspicion on those to whom she showed its place of concealment, which presumably is why it required at least one other individual besides Sorilea about whom we could not be certain - Bair.

DahLliA
06-12-2012, 03:08 AM
The scene where Cadsuane revealed the e've was obviously meant to draw suspicion on those to whom she showed its place of concealment, which presumably is why it required at least one other individual besides Sorilea about whom we could not be certain - Bair.

This is probably the best "evidence" that Sorilea is a DF.

Then again it could also just be RJ messing with us.

Terez
06-12-2012, 03:58 AM
This is probably the best "evidence" that Sorilea is a DF.

Then again it could also just be RJ messing with us.
Why do you put 'evidence' in quotes? Aside from red-handed evidence, this is about the strongest kind of evidence you can hope for in WoT. It's not proof, but it's definitely evidence. And I really doubt it's just 'messing with us' at this stage in the game.

Also, just because Sorilea doesn't think of her strength in the Power doesn't mean it wasn't a motivation for her becoming a Darkfriend. If that was her motivation, it was a means of supplementing that weakness, not a delusion that it would change the fact. Sorilea is not the kind of person that would enjoy dwelling on her weaknesses at all; she's the kind of person who would trivialize them.

Weiramon
06-12-2012, 04:11 AM
Burn my soul, it would not be a surprise to learn that handsome woman, Cadsuane Sedai herself, considered and dismissed that old harridan's revealing the wards.

It is inconceivable such an aged, well-travelled Aes Sedai could be wrong. One would be hard-pressed to find examples of misjudgment among the Lord Dragon's coterie - or his rivals and adversaries, for that matter.

Lupusdeusest
06-12-2012, 04:18 AM
Terez - most of our discussion is via Facebook, for faster bouncing of ideas. Here's a bit slow, and if I'm in one of my overexcited modes, I need the instant discussion without waiting for a page to reload on the off chance someone has responded (particularly with the hours I can come on here; Theoryland is blocked at work for some reason). Some of the ideas are also a little... nutty... and several fall into the what-if/casual-exploration category I know you dislike.

I think this has already been said - but Rand said he shouldn't have extended himself so far at Maradon, but he was really pissed. (I just deleted a very long rambling theory from the end of this post. Well, fragments of a theory. Hence why this sounds a little abruptly cut.)

Lupusdeusest
06-12-2012, 04:21 AM
No, first blood is usually yours. Saying otherwise doesn't make you right.

I think with trolling, it's generally the greater consensus that determines it, rather than the lesser consensus.

Terez
06-12-2012, 04:33 AM
Terez - most of our discussion is via Facebook, for faster bouncing of ideas.
Yeah, I figured; I have come across such conversations before, after all. But it wasn't about a competition for who is Zombie's Best WoT Friend; it was about what I said it was about.

Terez
06-12-2012, 04:35 AM
I think with trolling, it's generally the greater consensus that determines it, rather than the lesser consensus.
Popular opinion does not amount to a hill of beans, as far as I'm concerned. Popular opinion = mob mentality.

GonzoTheGreat
06-12-2012, 05:05 AM
Brandon Sanderson told me he "thinks" Rand has seen her since his epiphany.
If true, then it is very strong evidence of one of the two following:
1. Rand can not detect DFs simply by observing them.
2. Sorilea is not a DF.

The fact that BS isn't sure whether or not Rand has seen her rules out the possibility that she is a DF who may have escaped through luck. If that had been the case, then BS would be aware of it, as she would be important enough to notice and remember such a detail.

Do you really think I forgot? Or are you just trolling me?
Well, it is also possible that you chose to not mention Torkumen because he would undermine your belief. Assuming that you forgot seems to be giving you the benefit of the doubt.

The watching/serving point seems a little silly. So Torkumen was doing some serious Darkfriending while Weiramon was just passively serving the Shadow? And even if this point is valid: if Sorilea is a Darkfriend, she's doing some serious Darkfriending.
Torkumen was not doing any active Darkfriending at the time, he was being under house arrest and had been ignored for weeks by anyone who might have followed his orders.
Weiramon, on the other hand, was supposedly still on active duty as a DF, learning what the DR did and counteracting his orders when that was to the benefit of the Shadow.

Terez
06-12-2012, 05:23 AM
Well, it is also possible that you chose to not mention Torkumen because he would undermine your belief.
Which is stupid, partly because Torkumen does not undermine my belief, and partly because I'm not daft enough to think that anyone but the shiniest noob would have forgotten it. We were talking about simple observation, not what happened at Maradon, which is a clearly different scenario.

DahLliA
06-12-2012, 05:27 AM
Why do you put 'evidence' in quotes? Aside from red-handed evidence, this is about the strongest kind of evidence you can hope for in WoT. It's not proof, but it's definitely evidence. And I really doubt it's just 'messing with us' at this stage in the game.

I put it in quotes, because it's only evidence because we, as readers, know that the scene is most likely written for that reason.

Lupusdeusest
06-12-2012, 06:05 AM
Yeah, I figured; I have come across such conversations before, after all. But it wasn't about a competition for who is Zombie's Best WoT Friend; it was about what I said it was about.

I did not actually even see it as being about ZS specifically, but anyhoo.

Zombie Sammael
06-12-2012, 06:21 AM
Yeah, I figured; I have come across such conversations before, after all. But it wasn't about a competition for who is Zombie's Best WoT Friend; it was about what I said it was about.

I think we should have a competition for who gets to be my best WOT friend though. Submissions via Twitter from all applicants. Judging panel consists of me. A prize for the winner, runner up and best dressed. Hop to it all of you!

Lupusdeusest
06-12-2012, 06:27 AM
Popular opinion does not amount to a hill of beans, as far as I'm concerned. Popular opinion = mob mentality.

Translation of my original statement: Trolling is one of those things that if you are the only person on the board that thinks a user is trolling, and the board is a brighter one such as Theoryland, you're likely wrong. Very likely. It simply makes you look as if you can't admit you may be wrong in this one or in any one.

It's not "mob mentality" when the "mob" is attempting to show you their reasoning in a gentle and supportive manner. I know others have tried explaining this before, but I tried to do it with tact this time. To save this thread going the same way as the other one, just think about that. A denial following this explanation will likely sound like a "NO U". I'd normally do this via PM, but the trigger for it has happened too often in public and as such those who have born its brunt have a right to see this.

----

On a happier note:
We need a full compilation of evidence against the accused so far.
I suspect we can probably say there is a DF amongst the WO, the main WO, as it is, not because of WHAT BS said at Supanova! but HOW he said it. (I may be sticking my neck out here.) Next time I am taking a video camera of some description, as his face said a lot more than his mouth.

Lupusdeusest
06-12-2012, 06:29 AM
I think we should have a competition for who gets to be my best WOT friend though. Submissions via Twitter from all applicants. Judging panel consists of me. A prize for the winner, runner up and best dressed. Hop to it all of you!

May I walk sedately?

Terez
06-12-2012, 06:58 AM
I think we should have a competition for who gets to be my best WOT friend though. Submissions via Twitter from all applicants.
Oh well, I guess I can't apply.

Terez
06-12-2012, 07:03 AM
Translation of my original statement: Trolling is one of those things that if you are the only person on the board that thinks a user is trolling, and the board is a brighter one such as Theoryland, you're likely wrong. Very likely.
1. Sometimes I don't think very much of the brightness of Theoryland.

2. I'm not sure why you believe I'm the only person at Theoryland that thinks that x, y, or z is trolling. Do you have intimate conversations with every single member? I doubt it. I'm aware that there is a largish group of people who don't believe it, and many of them are trolls themselves (some even pride themselves on it). I know they're all friends, and likely agree with each other on everything that concerns me. But they are not 'everyone' at Theoryland, not by any stretch.

It's not "mob mentality" when the "mob" is attempting to show you their reasoning in a gentle and supportive manner.I think you should probably stop pretending to know what is going on here. It's presumptuous in the extreme, and only slightly less so than it was with Alanna on the now-disappeared thread.

Zombie Sammael
06-12-2012, 07:29 AM
Oh well, I guess I can't apply.

What makes you think that?;)

Terez
06-12-2012, 07:31 AM
What makes you think that?;)
Didn't you block me on Twitter or something? All I know is I was following you, and then I wasn't, but I didn't unfollow you.

GonzoTheGreat
06-12-2012, 07:49 AM
Didn't you block me on Twitter or something? All I know is I was following you, and then I wasn't, but I didn't unfollow you.
Oh boy, if you two get that cleared up, the we'll have the Zombie Refollowed here.

Zombie Sammael
06-12-2012, 07:54 AM
Didn't you block me on Twitter or something? All I know is I was following you, and then I wasn't, but I didn't unfollow you.

I unblocked you ages ago. I was waiting to see how long it woukd take you to notice. :p

Terez
06-12-2012, 08:08 AM
Well, I'm not sure why you expected me to check it every day. Surely you know me better than that. ;)

yks 6nnetu hing
06-12-2012, 09:43 AM
TITLE: Crown of Swords

CHAPTER: Prologue - Lightnings

It was a foolish boast to speak of making someone meet an obligation they had not acknowledged, yet in the angry mutters from the other women, Sevanna heard other furious promises to make the Aes Sedai meet toh. Only those who had killed Desaine on Sevanna's orders stood silent. Therava's narrow lips tightened slightly, but finally she said, "It will be as you say, Sevanna."


Without singling anybody out, please take the high road. If it helps, think of yourself as Aiel and the other one as stupid wetlander not even realizing they have toh.

fionwe1987
06-12-2012, 10:24 AM
Also, just because Sorilea doesn't think of her strength in the Power doesn't mean it wasn't a motivation for her becoming a Darkfriend. If that was her motivation, it was a means of supplementing that weakness, not a delusion that it would change the fact. Sorilea is not the kind of person that would enjoy dwelling on her weaknesses at all; she's the kind of person who would trivialize them.
If she is the kind of person who can trivialize her weakness, rise above it and build a life where it is no longer a burning source of anger/jealousy, then no, it can't be her motivation for becoming a DF. That's like saying Demandred became a DF for his hatred of LTT, but hatred of LTT won't be obvious in his thoughts, he has trivializing it, and had risen above it.

It was only Sorilea and Bair that accompanied Cadsuane to her room to see the location of the e've, and there just doesn't seem to be anything pointing to Bair. As for Elza, she obviously gave Semirhage the e've, but that doesn't mean that she knew anything about where it was hidden. The scene where Cadsuane revealed the e've was obviously meant to draw suspicion on those to whom she showed its place of concealment, which presumably is why it required at least one other individual besides Sorilea about whom we could not be certain - Bair.
Except its a badly done "suspicious activity" scene, if so. Any Myrdraal can sense the OP, and THE Myrdraal was involved in this situation. The need for someone to go to Cadsuane's room and point out that box is nonexistent.

The Unreasoner
06-12-2012, 10:27 AM
Can a member of the prosecution explain to me why that scene is 'evidence' against Sorilea but not Bair? Wishful thinking?

And what about Sorilea wanting to kill Semirhage? A bluff? Or are we really supposed to believe that she is getting better info than half the Forsaken?

Davian93
06-12-2012, 10:32 AM
Well, Sorilea can channel while Bair cannot. Thus, she could see the weaves in theory...assuming they werent inverted from the start.

The Unreasoner
06-12-2012, 10:36 AM
Well, Sorilea can channel while Bair cannot.
Oh that's right...


But fionwe makes a good point. SH was involved, so as far as I'm concerned, all bets are off with that.

fionwe1987
06-12-2012, 11:19 AM
Well, Sorilea can channel while Bair cannot. Thus, she could see the weaves in theory...assuming they werent inverted from the start.

As Sorilea closed the door behind the three of them, Cadsuane disarmed the box's traps.
...
Her new weave was much more versatile. It didn't destroy the items in the box—Cadsuane wasn't certain if they could be destroyed. Instead, the weaves—inverted to be invisible—sprang out in twisting threads of Air and captured anyone in the room when the box was opened.

They were inverted. And Cadsuane never re-did them in Sorilea's presence. Which means Sorilea never saw them...

The Unreasoner
06-12-2012, 11:27 AM
They were inverted. And Cadsuane never re-did them in Sorilea's presence. Which means Sorilea never saw them...
Just to play Devil's Advocate...
it's possible that the counter-weave wasn't inverted.

Zombie Sammael
06-12-2012, 11:48 AM
Oh that's right...

But fionwe makes a good point. SH was involved, so as far as I'm concerned, all bets are off with that.

SH's powers are quantifiable though. He isn't just a magic man who can do anything. He has all the normal powers of a myrddraal plus the ability to block channellers in some way and the ability to mark people as "his". That second isn't really relevant, but it might aid those arguing against the proposal that Sorilea is a Darkfriend to note that when he performs the former, it's as if the True Source isn't even there. That might help him open a box warded with the One Power.

Davian93
06-12-2012, 11:54 AM
Just to play Devil's Advocate...
it's possible that the counter-weave wasn't inverted.

Yes, there is that.

The Unreasoner
06-12-2012, 11:56 AM
SH's powers are quantifiable though. He isn't just a magic man who can do anything. He has all the normal powers of a myrddraal plus the ability to block channellers in some way and the ability to mark people as "his". That second isn't really relevant, but it might aid those arguing against the proposal that Sorilea is a Darkfriend to note that when he performs the former, it's as if the True Source isn't even there. That might help him open a box warded with the One Power.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'quantifiable'...

He can do everything you said, plus he can smell the difference between saidar and saidin, he was able to teach Elza very rare weaves, and he gets more powerful every day. Frankly, I don't see why he couldn't have just smelled the box out, and then given Elza the weaves she needed to disarm it. Or, as you said, he might have been able to do it himself.

Tomp
06-12-2012, 11:58 AM
I'm not sure what you mean by 'quantifiable'...

He can do everything you said, plus he can smell the difference between saidar and saidin, he was able to teach Elza very rare weaves, and he gets more powerful every day. Frankly, I don't see why he couldn't have just smelled the box out, and then given Elza the weaves she needed to disarm it. Or, as you said, he could have done it himself.

Hang on now.
Did you just say that SH can smell Cadsuane's box? :D

The Unreasoner
06-12-2012, 12:05 PM
It's also clear from other quotes of BS that the weaves Elza used didn't require knowledge of the specific nature of the warding going in. So first, if all SH needed was knowledge of the location, Bair is just as potentially guilty. And second, assuming he couldn't find it on his own seems to be a stretch.

And for people pushing the 'Sorilea is bitter because she is weak' motive, Bair can't channel at all.

fionwe1987
06-12-2012, 12:27 PM
Just to play Devil's Advocate...
it's possible that the counter-weave wasn't inverted.
What counter-weave? When a person disarms their own web, they don't use a counter-weave against it, they just untie the weave:

Hastily he untied the weave of the dome, dispelled it rather than wait for it to dissipate, and wove around the wagon a tall chimney of Air that
gleamed like glass to carry the fumes high and away.

From tFoH, Fading Words.

GonzoTheGreat
06-12-2012, 12:32 PM
So it is possible that disspelling a weave simply means knowing how to untie it: ie. knowing where to pull so that the knot comes loose.
In that case, seeing it done may help.

Or it may not help at all, if the knot can end up in another place, depending on where the one weaving the ward was standing while doing it.

The Unreasoner
06-12-2012, 12:36 PM
What counter-weave?
Idk. I just tried to anticipate Terez's response, and acknowledge it first.

I will say that I always thought a flow of some kind was needed to untie a weave.

The Unreasoner
06-12-2012, 12:41 PM
Can we add an open poll to this thread? A sort of 'Yes, Darkfriend/Undecided/She's innocent'?

Davian93
06-12-2012, 12:52 PM
Can we add an open poll to this thread? A sort of 'Yes, Darkfriend/Undecided/She's innocent'?


Here you go...I had to do a work around (create a new thread with a poll and then merge them but it worked for what was requested.)

suttree
06-12-2012, 12:53 PM
Am I the only one who thinks it's weird so many DF didn't expect they'd live to see the Day of Return? I mean, they want to live forever, right? Some of them already expect to. How so many were surprised to be personally involved with the War of Power is beyond me.

I think you are giving them far too much credit. You average every day DF would most likely just be looking for a shortcut in life and quick petty advantages. To my mind being involved with the actual return of the DO would be far more than they thought they bargained for.

The Unreasoner
06-12-2012, 01:00 PM
Here you go...I had to do a work around (create a new thread with a poll and then merge them but it worked for what was requested.)
Much appreciated...

Now we have a jury to make our cases to.

Kimon
06-12-2012, 01:11 PM
Can a member of the prosecution explain to me why that scene is 'evidence' against Sorilea but not Bair? Wishful thinking?

And what about Sorilea wanting to kill Semirhage? A bluff? Or are we really supposed to believe that she is getting better info than half the Forsaken?

Along with the lack of channeling ability on the part of Bair, there is also the lack of prior hints foreshadowing at DF status for Bair. If she is a DF, it would seem to have been dropped out of nowhere, as if a decision was made that there should be a high profile DF amongst the Aiel, so let's pick a name out of a hat and make him or her a DF. At least with Sorilea there are prior oddities that could be construed as foreshadowing.

GonzoTheGreat
06-12-2012, 01:11 PM
I want an option in between "no" and "not sure".

Grig
06-12-2012, 01:21 PM
On another note...
Am I the only one who thinks it's weird so many DF didn't expect they'd live to see the Day of Return?

Do we know that many did not? The only one I can think of is Sheriam, and her thinking is pretty straightforward. "Hasn't happened for 3000 years, what are the odds of it happening in my lifetime? I can ride the wave for easy perks that I couldn't get without these powerful allies." Her reasoning would hold up for any normals that don't drink the Eternal Life Kool-Aid, as well. We're looking at feudal societies with little in the way of social advancement.

Of course, I don't know how Aes Sedai in general wouldn't be Millennialists -- even Lan noted that some major catastrophe happens every thousand years or so, making becoming Black Ajah for the perks a particularly risky thing near a millennial boundary.

Along with the lack of channeling ability on the part of Bair, there is also the lack of prior hints foreshadowing at DF status for Bair. If she is a DF, it would seem to have been dropped out of nowhere, as if a decision was made that there should be a high profile DF amongst the Aiel, so let's pick a name out of a hat and make him or her a DF.

Was the dragkhar in TSR ever explained? Bair was in the story at that time, while Sorilea was yet to be introduced. Tenuous, but there.

Zombie Sammael
06-12-2012, 01:30 PM
Do we know that many did not? The only one I can think of is Sheriam, and her thinking is pretty straightforward. "Hasn't happened for 3000 years, what are the odds of it happening in my lifetime? I can ride the wave for easy perks that I couldn't get without these powerful allies." Her reasoning would hold up for any normals that don't drink the Eternal Life Kool-Aid, as well. We're looking at feudal societies with little in the way of social advancement.

Of course, I don't know how Aes Sedai in general wouldn't be Millennialists -- even Lan noted that some major catastrophe happens every thousand years or so, making becoming Black Ajah for the perks a particularly risky thing near a millennial boundary.

Was the dragkhar in TSR ever explained? Bair was in the story at that time, while Sorilea was yet to be introduced. Tenuous, but there.

Couple of things spring to mind - first isn't even a response to you, Grig, but a general thing that's come up - if Sorilea isn't a Darkfriend, that doesn't mean Bair or another Aiel Wise One is, and if Sorilea is a Darkfriend that doesn't exonerate Bair.

Second is a response to you but it's completely off-topic. However, I can't help noting how pervasive the myth is that any Darkfriend has actually been granted immortality. Not even the characters who've been recycled are actually immortal:

WEEK 1 QUESTION
The Dark One has promised his followers immortality and power above all others on the Day of Return. In previous interviews you have said that this is within his power. My question is, will he? I mean, he doesn't seem very loyal or trustworthy to me. If (Light forbid) he breaks free, will he remember the "little people" or just destroy all the puny humans when he remakes the world in his own image?
ROBERT JORDAN
That's the big question for the Forsaken, isn't it. Can they trust the Dark One? You're right; he isn't very trustworthy or loyal.

Grig
06-12-2012, 01:33 PM
Second is a response to you but it's completely off-topic. However, I can't help noting how pervasive the myth is that any Darkfriend has actually been granted immortality.

Have you ever spoken to anyone that actually believes that? It's a completely new myth to me, so I don't get how it applies to me or what I said. By "Eternal Life Kool-Aid" I meant "Darkfriends who actually believe they will be granted Eternal Life", I am not referring to any posited magical sweetened beverage that Darkfriends actually ritually consume to prolong their lives. We know the DO's motives can't be trusted. Darkfriends generally do not.

Zombie Sammael
06-12-2012, 01:43 PM
Have you ever spoken to anyone that actually believes that? It's a completely new myth to me, so I don't get how it applies to me or what I said. By "Eternal Life Kool-Aid" I meant "Darkfriends who actually believe they will be granted Eternal Life", I am not referring to any posited magical sweetened beverage that Darkfriends actually ritually consume to prolong their lives. We know the DO's motives can't be trusted. Darkfriends generally do not.

I used to believe it - that's why it jumped out at me as something that was mistaken, but I've seen it elsewhere as well. Sorry I misinterpreted you.

Kimon
06-12-2012, 01:46 PM
Was the dragkhar in TSR ever explained? Bair was in the story at that time, while Sorilea was yet to be introduced. Tenuous, but there.

Lanfear told Rand that Asmodean had sent that draghkar that attacked Cold Rocks Hold to distract Rand while Asmodean checked on Rhuidean. He was attacked by 2 draghkar again in the Jangai Pass during tFoH, but those were sent by Sammael.

The Unreasoner
06-12-2012, 02:11 PM
So the Min/Sorilea thing has been pretty thoroughly discussed, unfortunately for conviction it's all but useless. And neither side ceded the point.

So what else is there? It seems that the DB scene is explained away sufficiently, given comments by BS on the scene and on Callandor. And I'm inclined to interpret BS's comment to frenchie as being in favor of Sorilea's innocence.

And yet, twice as many people (some of whom have opinions I value) feel that Sorilea is a DF. Am I forgetting something? Is there some major evidence against her other than what some people may find in those two scenes?

Kimon
06-12-2012, 02:14 PM
So the Min/Sorilea thing has been pretty thoroughly discussed, unfortunately for conviction it's all but useless. And neither side ceded the point.

So what else is there? It seems that the DB scene is explained away sufficiently, given comments by BS on the scene and on Callandor. And I'm inclined to interpret BS's comment to frenchie as being in favor of Sorilea's innocence.

And yet, twice as many people (some of whom have opinions I value) feel that Sorilea is a DF. Am I forgetting something? Is there some major evidence against her other than what some people may find in those two scenes?

You might have waited until there were more than 4 voters in the affirmative to have dropped that little nugget...

The Unreasoner
06-12-2012, 02:21 PM
You might have waited until there were more than 4 voters in the affirmative to have dropped that little nugget...
lol...
Well I intended no offense against Grig or suttree. I just feel like I know you and Davian better.

The Unreasoner
06-12-2012, 02:35 PM
This seems relevant...
Luckers Do the Forsaken know the weaves Elza used to break the warding Cadsuane placed on the Domination Band?
Brandon Sanderson

Yes.
LUCKERS

So, why didn’t they use it on wardings Rand placed on Callandor, and the other things they’ve wanted that were warded earlier in the series?
BRANDON SANDERSON

*stares at me for a long moment, thoughtfully* They may not have know them then. The thing is... we don’t see a lot of the Shadow innovating with the Power, unlike with the Light, but they have been. As much as the Light. But they know, now. The notes definitely say this.


Terez (herid) (http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/58772-jordancon/page__view__findpost__p__1815197)

Does Shaidar Haran channel the True Power? Can he teach weaves?
Brandon Sanderson

I’m going to RAFO Shaidar Haran for now.
TEREZ

Totally understandable. And predictable. But I asked anyway.
FOOTNOTE—TEREZ

This was asked in reference to the theory that Sorilea is a Darkfriend (http://terez27.blogspot.com/2010/08/%3Cspan%20class=%27highlight%27%3Esorilea%3C/span%3E-is-darkfriend.html).


Well, SH can teach weaves. And didn't need to know details about the (inverted) warding beforehand. So... this scene means nothing.

maleshub
06-12-2012, 02:39 PM
Voted no with my heart! I just hope that she isn't a DF :)

The Unreasoner
06-12-2012, 02:47 PM
Voted no with my heart! I just hope that she isn't a DF :)
You realize Terez could use that to attack all of us, right?;)

Weiramon
06-12-2012, 02:54 PM
Burn my soul, no doubt this Anath woman took those sad bracelets herself, rather than having them presented to her by some Aes Sedai oathsworn and compelled to follow the Lord Dragon.

Zombie Sammael
06-12-2012, 04:08 PM
In case anyone cared, I voted "don't know". Initially I was "don't know but am suspicious", but in fact as this thread's worn on I've become more and more "don't know but she's probably innocent". If she is one, she's done exceptionally well at hiding it, but - the incident with the Sad bracelets aside - that seems to be all she's done. In addition, the arguments against her having anything to do with the Sad bracelets seem pretty strong. She has at times behaved suspiciously but that may purely be in the nature of her job. Much of the other evidence seems to be usable by either side, too.

jana
06-12-2012, 04:17 PM
I want an option in between "no" and "not sure".

Funny. I want an option in between "yes" and "not sure"

I'll go with yes =oP

Terez
06-12-2012, 06:04 PM
Can a member of the prosecution explain to me why that scene is 'evidence' against Sorilea but not Bair? Wishful thinking?
You never did read my theory on this, did you? Because I went into that in detail. It's not just the fact that Sorilea can channel, and it's not just the fact that we know she can duplicate weaves even when she's not strong enough to make them. It's the fact that, in the scene where we learned she could do that, she very purposefully put Cadsuane in her debt. Chapter icon, the Viper. Of course, half the chapter is a Graendal POV, but that's beside the point.

Impossible, she would have said, yet she did not believe Sorilea was lying. She could hardly wait to try the weave herself. Not that it was of much use immediately. Even if she knew exactly where the wretched boy was, she had to make him come to her. Sorilea was right about that. "A very great gift," she said slowly. "I have nothing I can give you to compare."

This time, there was no doubt of the brief smile that flashed across Sorilea’s lips. She knew very well that Cadsuane was in her debt. Taking up the heavy golden pitcher with both hands, she carefully filled the small white cups. With plain water. She did not spill a drop.
And the calling in of the debt...note the chapter title, usually the most important thing in the chapter....

Sorilea did not seem convinced, but she pressed the issue no further. "And the item?" she asked. "May I see it?"

Cadsuane almost snapped a no. But . . . Sorilea had taught Cadsuane Traveling, an incredibly powerful tool. That had been an offering, a hand extended. Cadsuane needed to work with these women, Sorilea most of all. Al'Thor was a bigger project than one woman could handle.

"Come with me," Cadsuane said, leaving the wooden room. The Wise Ones followed. Outside, Cadsuane instructed the sisters—Daigian and Sarene—to make certain that Semirhage was kept awake, eyes open. It was unlikely to work, but it was the best strategy Cadsuane had at the moment.

Though . . . she did also have Semirhage's momentary look, that hint of anger, displayed at Sorilea's comment. When you could control a person's anger, you could control their other emotions as well. That was why she had focused so hard on teaching al'Thor to rein in his temper.

Control and anger. What was it that Sorilea had said to get the reaction? That Semirhage seemed disappointingly human. It was as if Sorilea had come expecting one of the Forsaken to be as twisted as a Myrddraal or Draghkar. And why not? The Forsaken had been figures of legend for three thousand years, looming shadows of darkness and mystery. It could be disappointing to discover that they were, in many ways, the most human of the Dark One's followers: petty, destructive and argumentative. At least, that was how al'Thor claimed they acted. He was so strangely familiar with them.
Disappointingly human?

And what about Sorilea wanting to kill Semirhage? A bluff? Or are we really supposed to believe that she is getting better info than half the Forsaken?Very nearly every Darkfriend POV we've had where they deal with the Forsaken, they think about trying to find weaknesses in the Forsaken, and many of them are surprised—surprised!—to learn that the Forsaken do not know everything. They think of them as gods, almost...until they meet them. Then they start learning the truth. What kind of Lightfriend would be disappointed that a Forsaken was more human than they had believed? Sure, she could have been goading her...but it had the ring of truth, to me.

But fionwe makes a good point. SH was involved, so as far as I'm concerned, all bets are off with that.
Except that we know Shaidar Haran has serious limitations, and if it was as easy as sending Shaidar Haran in to nullify the weaves, or even teach the weaves, then Moridin would have had Callandor as soon as he returned from the dead.

Interview: Nov 10th, 2009
TGS Signing Report - Lexington, KY (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=465) (Paraphrased)Brandon Sanderson
Brandon hinted at some severe limitations on Shaidar Haran to affect the physical world. He says that a lot of actions that people assume to be those of Shaidar Haran in the book in one particular scene were physically carried out by Elza. He further indicated that Shadar Haran would have been incapable of physically placing the collar himself.Just to play Devil's Advocate...
it's possible that the counter-weave wasn't inverted.
As far as we've seen, none of the Third-Agers know how to actively invert weaves. In other words, they have to weave them first, and then invert them. Demandred did it actively at Shadar Logoth and called it 'reversing', but I'm not sure if the terminology is significant. The wards on the box were inverted, but we have no reason to believe that Cadsuane's disarming weaves were reversed.

It's also clear from other quotes of BS that the weaves Elza used didn't require knowledge of the specific nature of the warding going in.
Which quotes would those be?

So first, if all SH needed was knowledge of the location, Bair is just as potentially guilty. And second, assuming he couldn't find it on his own seems to be a stretch.
It stands to reason based on what we've seen that Shaidar Haran only has power over Darkfriends, and can't do much that doesn't involve them.

And for people pushing the 'Sorilea is bitter because she is weak' motive, Bair can't channel at all.
Different people are motivated by different circumstances. This isn't about motivations, since we don't know what they are anyway; motivations are just an idle side-speculation where this topic is concerned. Nothing wrong with it, but it doesn't really qualify as evidence of anything.

Idk. I just tried to anticipate Terez's response, and acknowledge it first.
Helpful to anticipating my responses would be reading the theory I wrote on it (which you linked, if indirectly).

I will say that I always thought a flow of some kind was needed to untie a weave.
It seems that disarming a trap is usually more complicated than just letting a regular ward unravel. The only example I can think of of a person disarming someone else's traps is when Rand sent Narishma after Callandor.

Along with the lack of channeling ability on the part of Bair, there is also the lack of prior hints foreshadowing at DF status for Bair. If she is a DF, it would seem to have been dropped out of nowhere, as if a decision was made that there should be a high profile DF amongst the Aiel, so let's pick a name out of a hat and make him or her a DF. At least with Sorilea there are prior oddities that could be construed as foreshadowing.
Right, and we know so little about Bair that she might be a Darkfriend. But if she's the Darkfriend in this scenario, then it's disappointingly redshirt, and I don't think that's what RJ was going for, especially considering all those prior clues.

Well, SH can teach weaves. And didn't need to know details about the (inverted) warding beforehand. So... this scene means nothing.
I'm curious as to why you say that as if it is a fact.

You realize Terez could use that to attack all of us, right?;)
It didn't occur to me, but now that you mention it...

In case anyone cared, I voted "don't know". Initially I was "don't know but am suspicious", but in fact as this thread's worn on I've become more and more "don't know but she's probably innocent".
Clearly you are listening to the wrong people.

Southpaw2012
06-12-2012, 06:18 PM
If she is a DF we can definitely anticipate a Cadsuane vs. Sorilea battle for AMoL where Cadsuane will go down in a blaze of glory

Terez
06-12-2012, 06:35 PM
I suppose that's my cue.
"Be quiet!" Cadsuane roared, slapping her hands together in a thundercrack. "You, girl. He needs his bed. Hop!" Nandera hopped. Rand was stripped and in his bed in a twinkling, with Samitsu and Niande both hovering over him, the Cairhienin chased out and Nandera at the door repeating Cadsuane’s instructions that he was not to be disturbed by anyone, all so fast Min felt dizzy. She hoped one day to see the confrontation between Cadsuane and the Wise One Sorilea; it had to come, and it would be memorable.

Zombie Sammael
06-12-2012, 06:56 PM
Clearly you are listening to the wrong people.

Then the right people need to do a better job of convincing me. ;)

You are holding your own pretty well, but still... I'm no longer quite so suspicious of her as I was.

eht slat meit
06-12-2012, 07:05 PM
Disappointingly human?


Stray thought: Sorilea cannot Dreamwalk. I can imagine just how inhuman, how inspiring or terrifying one of the Dream-guises the Forsaken have used might be to someone with so little ability to channel and none to Dream, meaning she's never had the opportunity to be desensitized by Nightmares. While she's a powerful woman, her power is rooted almost entirely in the mundane.

Grig
06-12-2012, 07:06 PM
This seems relevant...


Well, SH can teach weaves.

Since when does RAFO mean yes?

For what it's worth, here's an (I believe) earlier quote; as I recall this was the first time Brandon opined on SH and Cadsuane's box:


Question
How did Elza defeat the wards on Cadsuane's plain wooden box?

Brandon Sanderson
Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves, and in other ways made into a tool of Shaidar Haran. Not all of it was pleasant for her.

Note that he very carefully doesn't say anything about Shaidar Haran teaching her anything. This fits perfectly well with Sorilea showing the weave that she memorized but couldn't use, just like she showed Cadsuane Traveling.

Repeating things as fact doesn't make them fact. Nowhere have we seen it indicated that Shaidar Haran himself can teach a channeler a weave (or can we get a better citation on that?).