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View Full Version : Ilyena - HoTH?


Maesterbaevern
06-05-2012, 04:55 AM
I have found several threads considering whether Ilyena has been reborn as either Elayne or as fractioned into all three of the Harem girls. I also found one thread speculating around Alivia as well.

However, two old inputs in a thread (http://archive.tarvalon.net/forums-corrupt/viewtopic.php?t=15141&sid=18642ab216bc3cf2ecd0dc6c7f4ffa59) at TarValon.net disregards Ilyena as tied to the wheel.

Do we have any evidence of that Ilyena was/wasn't tied to the Wheel?

Weird Harold
06-05-2012, 08:34 AM
I have found several threads considering whether Ilyena has been reborn as either Elayne or as fractioned into all three of the Harem girls. I also found one thread speculating around Alivia as well.

However, two old inputs in a thread (http://archive.tarvalon.net/forums-corrupt/viewtopic.php?t=15141&sid=18642ab216bc3cf2ecd0dc6c7f4ffa59) at TarValon.net disregards Ilyena as tied to the wheel.

Do we have any evidence of that Ilyena was/wasn't tied to the Wheel?
We don't have any evidence one way or another for Ilyena. IMO that translates to "probably not" a HotH.

Terez
06-05-2012, 08:39 AM
We know from RJ that souls can't be split, so we know she's not fractioned, and that's why most people don't like the idea that she's a Hero. If she's tied to Rand, then that gives her a prominence over his other two women; she gets to hang out with him in the afterlife, and they don't. Also, Birgitte's comment to him at Falme seems to suggest he's not always tied to the same woman.

GonzoTheGreat
06-05-2012, 08:42 AM
I would say that if she had been a HotH, then Rand/LTT would've realised that during the Epiphany on the Mount. But that is only circumstantial evidence at best, so it isn't wholly convincing.

eht slat meit
06-05-2012, 06:18 PM
More along the lines of loony theory, but I personally kind of like the idea that Lanfear pulled a Moghedien and ripped Ilyena from T'A'R to ensure that she and LTT never met again in another life, with Min, Elayne and Aviendha each possessing some critical facet of her personality, represented by the three women on a boat.

Jasin Natael
06-05-2012, 06:42 PM
Isn't everyone tied to the Wheel? You don't have to be a Hero to be reborn in another age.

eht slat meit
06-05-2012, 06:55 PM
Isn't everyone tied to the Wheel? You don't have to be a Hero to be reborn in another age.

Makes me wonder. Why does Lanfear never worry about Ilyena being reborn? She knows LTT was, and presumably like the rest of the Forsaken, knows about the presence of the heroes in T'A'R. Even if Ilyena weren't reborn as HoTH, that still leaves a good chance that she'll come back this time around. Yet Lanfear never seems concerned about it, even though the woman is the obvious greatest threat for LTT's affections. Hmm!

Weird Harold
06-05-2012, 07:53 PM
Makes me wonder. Why does Lanfear never worry about Ilyena being reborn? She knows LTT was, and presumably like the rest of the Forsaken, knows about the presence of the heroes in T'A'R. Even if Ilyena weren't reborn as HoTH, that still leaves a good chance that she'll come back this time around. Yet Lanfear never seems concerned about it, even though the woman is the obvious greatest threat for LTT's affections. Hmm!
Ilyena being reborn is only a problem For Lanfear if she's linked to the Dragon Soul (LTT/Rand) the way Birgitte and Gaidal Cain are linked. Given the Prophecy and Foretellings about Rand's Three Queens, I think that it is fairly obvious she isn't.

Seeker
06-05-2012, 08:10 PM
"I cannot imagine what is keeping Ilyena. She will give me the rough side of her tongue if she thinks I have been hiding a guest from her. I hope you enjoy conversation, for she surely does. Be forewarned. Ilyena will ask you so many questions you may end up telling her everything you know."

So, she's naturally curious, inquisitive and loves the chance to meet strangers. Of all Rand's women, she sounds the most like Min.

It also works from a themematic standpoint. Lews Therin killed Ilyena, Rand choked Min. In both cases, what he wants most is forgiveness.

Within that moment, suddenly something amazing occurred to him. If I live again, then she might as well

He's obviously still in love with Ilyena and I think that he views her as his soul mate. Of the three women, the one who he's closest to, his best friend is Min.

I think she's Min.

frenchie
06-05-2012, 08:15 PM
Ileyna was an Aes Sedai, so Min is out.

Seeker
06-05-2012, 08:47 PM
Ileyna was an Aes Sedai, so Min is out.

How does that track?

Cortar
06-05-2012, 08:49 PM
So, she's naturally curious, inquisitive and loves the chance to meet strangers. Of all Rand's women, she sounds the most like Min.

It also works from a themematic standpoint. Lews Therin killed Ilyena, Rand choked Min. In both cases, what he wants most is forgiveness.



He's obviously still in love with Ilyena and I think that he views her as his soul mate. Of the three women, the one who he's closest to, his best friend is Min.

I think she's Min.

It also helps that I suspect Rand's relationship with Avi and Elayne is planned by the pattern to keep the nations and their peoples tied to Rand. Min, to be at least, seems like the only legitimate relationship Rand has.

Seeker
06-05-2012, 08:54 PM
It also helps that I suspect Rand's relationship with Avi and Elayne is planned by the pattern to keep the nations and their peoples tied to Rand. Min, to be at least, seems like the only legitimate relationship Rand has.

Agreed.

frenchie
06-05-2012, 08:55 PM
How does that track?

Min is a non-channeler. Ileyna could channel.

Seeker
06-05-2012, 08:57 PM
Min is a non-channeler. Ileyna could channel.

And....?

Ieyasu
06-05-2012, 09:32 PM
And....?

...and the ability to channel is attached to the soul.



I am surprised you seem to be forgetting all the interview quotes about this.... I suggest a quick perusal through Terez's database.

Seeker
06-05-2012, 10:02 PM
If I recall correctly, the ability to channel is both genetic and tied to the soul. Genetic means that it's a mutation - I was going to say random mutation but it wouldn't be random in a cyclic universe - and that means that channelers are, in fact, anatomically different from normal people.

So, one must meet two conditions to be a channeler.


1) Have a soul capable of touching the True Source.

2) Be born into a body with the genetic mutation that allows for channeling.

So, Min could very well have a channeling soul in a body that simply lacks the equipment. After all, her ability is remarkably similar to Foretelling. The fact that Ilyena was an Aes Sedai doesn't mean anything in this discussion. We know for a fact that channelers can be reborn as non-channelers because Rand has lived in all seven Ages and not all of those Ages feature the One Power.

That's why it took me a moment to understand Frenchie's point. I thought this was common knowledge on TL.

Kimon
06-05-2012, 10:07 PM
If I recall correctly, the ability to channel is both genetic and tied to the soul. Genetic means that it's a mutation - I was going to say random mutation but it wouldn't be random in a cyclic universe - and that means that channelers are, in fact, anatomically different from normal people.

So, one must meet two conditions to be a channeler.


1) Have a soul capable of touching the True Source.

2) Be born into a body with the genetic mutation that allows for channeling.

So, Min could very well have a channeling soul in a body that simply lacks the equipment. After all, her ability is remarkably similar to Foretelling. The fact that Ilyena was an Aes Sedai doesn't mean anything in this discussion. We know for a fact that channelers can be reborn as non-channelers because Rand has lived in all seven Ages and not all of those Ages feature the One Power.

That's why it took me a moment to understand Frenchie's point. I thought this was common knowledge on TL.

Can we be certain that Min is incapable of channeling? She obviously isn't a sparker, but a number of sisters (e.g. Sheriam) seemed interested in trying to get her into novice white in the early books. That sounds like potential channeler who chose not to learn to me...

Seeker
06-05-2012, 10:24 PM
Can we be certain that Min is incapable of channeling? She obviously isn't a sparker, but a number of sisters (e.g. Sheriam) seemed interested in trying to get her into novice white in the early books. That sounds like potential channeler who chose not to learn to me...

No, I don't think so.

RJ worked very hard to establish Min as a non-channeler. I don't think she's a Learner.

But again, it doesn't matter. Channeling souls can be born into non-channeling bodies, she seems to be Rand's soulmate (he's comfortable around her in ways that he isn't around anyone else) and the scene where he chokes her mirrors the death of Ilyena.

From a thematic standpoint, Min makes the most sense. People always assume Elayne because she has sunhair and her name sounds like Ilyena.

But does Rand sound like Lews Therin?

And if you read the description when Rand almost changes in TAR, you'll notice that Lews Therin has dark skin. Rand, on the other hand, is as Wonder Bread as they come.

Terez
06-05-2012, 11:08 PM
If I recall correctly, the ability to channel is both genetic and tied to the soul.
Channeling souls are spun out into bodies with the capability.

PS—For your convenience, some of that common knowledge among Theorylanders (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=197#22).

Boli
06-06-2012, 03:54 AM
Why should Ileyna be either reborn again in Rand's lifetime or be linked to Rand at all? Couldn't she just be a woman he loved when he was Lew Therin?

If she was bound to the wheel or linked to LTT/Rand Birgitte would have mentioned her rather than the pural "women" to Rand when they spoke on Tomman Head.

To his surprise, several of the small host behind Artur Hawkwing chuckled, and Birgitte, testing her bowstring, laughed. “You always choose women who cause you trouble, Lews Therin.” It had a fond sound, as between old friends.

Seeker
06-06-2012, 06:40 AM
Did RJ add any caveats to that? Because I know hw's said that Rand has lived in all seven Ages which would mean that he HAS to be born without the ability to channel at some point.

Seeker
06-06-2012, 07:54 AM
Also, Terez, is the quote you linked the one that people use to claim channeling is linked to the soul? Because if so, then I believe people are misinterpreting it.

RJ basically said that if you're born with the ability to channel - whether you use it or not - you'll be born with it again the next time around.

But that doesn't mean the ability is linked to your soul. It could just as easily mean that if you channel in one life, the Wheel will hold your soul in reserve until a channeling body becomes available.

My view has always been that your soul determines what side of the Power you will use (saidin or saidar) but your body determines whether or not you will have the ability to work with the One Power. Nynaeve's healing of Siuan seems to suggest that the ability to channel is essentially a part of the brain.

I don't think there's such a thing as channeling souls vs non-channeling souls. I think it's a case of the Wheel holding you in reserbe until the appropriate body becomes available. And we still have to determine if RJ's words apply to Ages where the ability to channel is unknown to mankind. Rand would be a non-channeler in those ages.

Oden
06-06-2012, 07:54 AM
The Dragon can be reborn as a learner without anyone to guide him into channelling.

Oden
06-06-2012, 07:58 AM
RJ basically said that if you're born with the ability to channel - whether you use it or not - you'll be born with it again the next time around.

But that doesn't mean the ability is linked to your soul. It could just as easily mean that if you channel in one life, the Wheel will hold your soul in reserve until a channeling body becomes available.

If your soul always is reincarnated in a channellers body, then that means that the soul is tied to channelling, i.e. the ability is linked (albeit indirectly) to the soul.

Enigma
06-06-2012, 08:14 AM
I know that Rand is a special case but he seems to have exactly the same strenght and talents at LTT had. RJ said that the channelling gene was recessive but if the soul is not the more significant what is the chances that the dragon would be reborn into a body that had exactly the right genes to give him the same strenght and abilities.

Ishara
06-06-2012, 08:22 AM
I'm not going to win any friends with this statement, but I truthfully think that the Dragon Soul isn't linked to any one woman. There is no love for him that lasts through the ages, like Birgitte and gaidal. His fate and purpose is altogether different, and while he may find love in each of his incarnations, that doesn't make them "soul mates", nor does it mean that those women are somehow linked to each other.

Ilyena was Lews Therin's love, and he did love her, but that doesn't mean that she's somehow linked to the Dragon Soul - just to Lews Therin's Turning. Same with the girls. They're all extraordinary in their own ways, but there is nothing whatsoever about them to suggest that they should be Heroes. They're just souls that were linked to Rand's Turning, this time around.

I think we sometimes lose sight of the fact that the Heroes of the Horn are not some huge body of souls - it's not. It's a small group of elite, new ones are not added with any regularity that we know of, notwithstanding Hawkwing's comment in tGH. Just beacsue we love and honour our favourite characters and their deeds in this Turning doesn't mean that they merit becoming a Hero...

Weird Harold
06-06-2012, 08:36 AM
I know that Rand is a special case but he seems to have exactly the same strenght and talents at LTT had. RJ said that the channelling gene was recessive but if the soul is not the more significant what is the chances that the dragon would be reborn into a body that had exactly the right genes to give him the same strenght and abilities.
Considering the Pattern's 3000+ year breeding program to produce Rand at the right time and place with the right lineage to be the Dragon Reborn, the chance of him having the necessary genetics to be as strong (or stronger) than LTT are pretty good. :D

Heinz
06-06-2012, 09:12 AM
I think we sometimes lose sight of the fact that the Heroes of the Horn are ...a small group of elite... Just beacsue we love and honour our favourite characters and their deeds in this Turning doesn't mean that they merit becoming a Hero...

This was my thought when first reading this thread yesterday as well. I haven't gone through all the 'off-screen' material some of the rest of you have, but as far as the books are concerned there is nothing in them to imply that Ilyena was anything more than a sweet, beautiful wife for the Dragon. The closest an implication comes is when Ishamael calls her 'Ilyena Sunhair', yet a special name for the Dragon's wife/consort/etc would not be off-base either. This doesn't qualify her for HotH status.

Also, when the Heroes met Rand in tGH and Rand mentions Egwene being in danger, they had a chuckle and a comment from Birgitte over LTT's connection with trouble and women. (Chapter 47..I'm at work so don't have my book with me, and can't get the quote from the summaries I find online, but I found enough that it'll be found in that chapter). In any case, the comment does not seem to imply LTT was linked with any one woman.

Terez
06-06-2012, 09:34 AM
Did RJ add any caveats to that? Because I know hw's said that Rand has lived in all seven Ages which would mean that he HAS to be born without the ability to channel at some point.
Your logic resembles swiss cheese.

Seeker
06-06-2012, 05:13 PM
The Dragon can be reborn as a learner without anyone to guide him into channelling.


Sure, that works for Rand but what about all the others? Are they all just learners with no one to teach them? More importantly, how does that lead to the ability to channel being lost to mankind? You see, Sparkers are only necessary to get things started. Even if no other Sparkers are born from this point onward, there are still powerful channeling institutions that can find and teach all the Learners. The only way that channeling can be lost is if people with the ability stop being born all together.

So if it's true that "Once a channeler always a channeler" then you have a whole lot of people who spend probably half of each Cycle (3 out of 7 Ages at least) in limbo. Without being born at all.

Which kind of seems contrary to what RJ intended. That's why I think his statement might have included some caveats. Possibly stuff he didn't mention because it didn't occur to him at the time. It's also one of the reasons why I don't think interview quotes should be considered canon. A guideline certainly, but I've seen a few interview quotes that have been contradicted by the books.

One example of this is the interview quote where RJ insists that the True Power is completely undetectable to anyone but the user and then we learn that isn't exactly true. The True Power is only detectable to people who have been given permission to use it and that is a very select few.

It's not that RJ lied and it's not that he changed his rules. It's that you're dealing with one of the most complex magic systems in modern fantasy, one with not only dozens of rules but also exceptions to those rules. And its hard for one man to keep track of all those exceptions. That's why RJ hired Maria. So, when he mentions things like "Only the user can detect weaves of the true power" he forgets to say "BUT..." simply because there are too many other things going on at a signing. RJ's a brilliant man but his world is enormously complicated.

I'm pretty sure the statement "if you channel in one life, you'll be able to channel in the next" was only intended to apply to Ages where the One Power is known to mankind.

I still think Min is Ilyena. I don't think she can channel but I don't think it matters because Min is one of a kind. She is the only one with her ability at this point in history and while RJ said there will be others in the coming Age who can do what Min does, at the moment, she is one of a kind.

Her ability is remarkably similar to foretelling and as such, I believe that Min has a mutation of the channeling gene. In other words, people who are born with Min's ability will be drawn from the pool of potential channelers. Depending on the body they get spun out in (which version of the special gene it has) they will either have the ability to channel or experience visions.

Seeker
06-06-2012, 05:18 PM
Your logic resembles swiss cheese.

It's full of protein and delicious?

GonzoTheGreat
06-07-2012, 02:42 AM
Sure, that works for Rand but what about all the others? Are they all just learners with no one to teach them? More importantly, how does that lead to the ability to channel being lost to mankind? You see, Sparkers are only necessary to get things started. Even if no other Sparkers are born from this point onward, there are still powerful channeling institutions that can find and teach all the Learners. The only way that channeling can be lost is if people with the ability stop being born all together.
Or if the Seanchan win.

Then you would have a situation in which only the sparkers actually channel, whereas the learners are either sul'dam or (if male) totally uninvolved with the OP altogether. Take the sparkers out of the equation, and OP use stops.

Heinz
06-07-2012, 09:34 AM
Her ability is remarkably similar to foretelling and as such...

I've always thought her ability was similar or the same as the Aelfinn, which would have nothing to do with the One Power if true.

Terez
06-07-2012, 09:57 AM
I've always thought her ability was similar or the same as the Aelfinn, which would have nothing to do with the One Power if true.
It has nothing to do with the Power either way, as we've been told repeatedly, but RJ said (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=7#1) it's not the same as what the Aelfinn do.

Jasin Natael
06-18-2012, 07:38 PM
Why should Ileyna be either reborn again in Rand's lifetime or be linked to Rand at all? Couldn't she just be a woman he loved when he was Lew Therin?

If she was bound to the wheel or linked to LTT/Rand Birgitte would have mentioned her rather than the pural "women" to Rand when they spoke on Tomman Head.

Probably true, but she could just be referring to the fact that LTT's ex is Lanfear. And for all we know, Ilenya could've been as reckless as Elayne.

Rand al'Fain
06-18-2012, 07:57 PM
Probably true, but she could just be referring to the fact that LTT's ex is Lanfear. And for all we know, Ilenya could've been as reckless as Elayne.

Well, we do know that both are blondes and have similar names. But we otherwise do not know much about Ilyena, other than she was blond, beautiful, a channeler, LTT's wife, had some kids with LTT, and was killed by LTT when he went mad.

Seth Baker
06-19-2012, 02:14 AM
Your logic resembles swiss cheese.

Glad I wasn't the only one scratching my head at the loops he was going through to disregard the plain words that Robert Jordan gave us and read a contrary interpretation that supported his pre-existing viewpoint.

anenu
06-19-2012, 07:16 PM
Considering the importance of Rand who is the primary HoTH and who as far as we know is only spun out to fight the dark one I would say that it is very possible that the wheel has created more than one woman to be tied to him and while the last time he was reborn only one of those women was spun out, or at least only one was spun out and destined to be with him in that life, it is possible that he has more than one connected to him and as such all three of the women are HoTH but they are not all spun out each age.

GonzoTheGreat
06-20-2012, 03:16 AM
On the other hand, it's also possible that he does not have an actual soul mate, and so simply has to make do with whatever girl or girls happen to be around each time he's spun out.
For all we know, the Dragon is routinely spun out 7 times in each Fifth Age, being a lifelong bachelor every one of those times.