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Seeker
06-06-2012, 05:43 PM
The Ilyena thread raised the question of what happens when someone like Rand is born in Ages where the One Power is unknown to mankind. One potential solution to the “Once a channeler, always a channeler” problem is to have Rand be a Learner with no one to teach him.

But let's go one step further. Let's assume that in every Age Rand is born a Sparker. He always channels even in Ages where no one knows about the One Power. He'd have a real hard time teaching anybody else to channel because

a) He'd a be a wilder with a one in four chance of surviving.

b) He wouldn't even know how to test for the ability to channel.

So, perhaps in such lives he'd be a wandering miracle worker, healing the sick by laying on hands, calling fire and lightning to strike down the wicked. That sort of thing. It would work wonderfully with RJ's theme of myth having a basis in reality but there is one problem.

Suppose every few thousand years or so, a man pops up who performs miracles. This would upset the balance between saidin and saidar as there is always one active saidin channeler throughout the WOT cycle but, so far as we know, no active saidar channeler outside the Ages where channeling is known to mankind.

Rand's presence in such a scenario would almost certainly necessitate a female counterpart. Not necessarily at the same TIME as him but appearing with the same frequency.

Discuss.

Tomp
06-06-2012, 05:54 PM
Is it confirmed that the dragon is reborn in every age?

Seeker
06-06-2012, 06:05 PM
I seem to recall RJ saying as much but for the purpose of this discussion, simply work within the theorhetical framework I've listed.

(Or create your own if you prefer :) )

Do you think the presence of a male channeler throughout history would necessitate a female counterpart.

fionwe1987
06-06-2012, 06:26 PM
I think there are female Heroes who can channel. Almost certainly. Wasn't Mabriam en Shereed mentioned as one?

And there are enough motifs in the lives of Elayne, Nynaeve and Egwene that match with previously famous female channelers who played critical roles in their times that any one of them can be a Hero. Moiriane, too, has aspects of her life very closely matched by various myths. Enough that she too may be a Hero.

I've also felt that Birgette's attraction to help Nynaeve and Perrin, but her desperate need to stay away from Egwene, point to all of them being Hero souls Birgette has had interactions with before. And since her life thread is kind of piggybacking on Elayne right now, perhaps this will cause Elayne also to be added to the Horn.

Then there's Shivan and Kalian. If Elayne's children are these two, and it is also likely that they channel, it would imply they are indeed channelers.

Weird Harold
06-06-2012, 06:31 PM
But let's go one step further. Let's assume that in every Age Rand is born a Sparker.

That's really dumb assumption. :D

You've forgotten the easiest resolution of the Channeling Soul + Channeling Body in a non-Channeling Age -- The absence of the True Source.

Given modern (New Age) traditions about Ley lines and "Places of Power" being remote and difficult to find/access, it would make more sense to "assume" that the proportion of Stedding to True Source access is variable. In ages, like ours, where "magic" is only a myth, most of the world is like a Stedding (Minus the peaceful aura) and no amount of ability will allow Channeling because there is nothing to Channel.

Seeker
06-06-2012, 08:03 PM
That's really dumb assumption. :D

You've forgotten the easiest resolution of the Channeling Soul + Channeling Body in a non-Channeling Age -- The absence of the True Source.

Given modern (New Age) traditions about Ley lines and "Places of Power" being remote and difficult to find/access, it would make more sense to "assume" that the proportion of Stedding to True Source access is variable. In ages, like ours, where "magic" is only a myth, most of the world is like a Stedding (Minus the peaceful aura) and no amount of ability will allow Channeling because there is nothing to Channel.

I personally don't subscribe to this theory, largely because I think the Stedding are pockets of the Ogier homeworld and not a naturally occurring phenomenon on Earth. But just for fun, I'll work within your framework.

Before I do, I'd like to point out that I prefer the genetic explanation for the rise and fall of channeling because it offers a simple explanation for how channeling came about and how it went away. At some point prior to the Age of Legends, humans were born with the channeling gene. The ability to channel can be lost by simply killing off all the channelers.

For instance, we know that the next Age is due for an industrial revolution where technology leaps forward. It's not out of the question for there to one day be a conflict between channelers and normals, most likely started by the latter in response to the perceived destructiveness of the latter. If people with the ability to channel are all killed off, that would result in the removal of the channeling gene from the gene pool until the Wheel reintroduces it.

There's an... elegance to this theory.

But when I ask myself about what might make the Stedding expand. Honestly, I've got nothing. I've been thinking about it for the last hour, trying to come up with something.


But just for fun, let's imagine that the loss of channeling is triggered by an expansion in the Stedding. We could then imagine a full turning of the Wheel to be a Year with seven Months (one for each age) and four seasons.

Summer would be the point where the ability to channel is strongest.

Winter would be the point where the ability to channel is weakest.

The Age of Legends would obviously be Spring and by extension, I think that Tarmon Gaidon takes place at or near the Summer Solstice. Why? Because of the rapid expansion of talents and discovery of things that had been thought “impossible” even in the Ages of Legends. Yes, yes, yes, only one percent of the population channels now as opposed to three percent of the population in the Age of Legends but that could easily be the result of the primitive technology. The Age of Legends had the advantage of Traveling along with planes (sho-wings) and automobiles (jo-cars) so it was easier for the Hall of Servants to find all the Learners and train them.

Until recently, scouring the countryside for potential trainees was quite an undertaking but that does not mean that Learners were not being BORN into the population. Possibly (probably) more of them than had been born in the Age of Legends. And that's not to mention all the Sparkers who die from a lack of training. Of course this tends toward a genetic explanation but I'll get back on task.

Right.

Okay, so if we liken the WOT cycle to a Year, then the One Power would be likened to sunlight. In Summer the sun is stronger than it is in Winter. Perhaps the universe itself has a curvature, an axis that gradually tilts. In Summer more of the True Source is shining on the universe causing a contraction of the Stedding. In Winter, however, the universe is “tilted” away from the Source, causing an expansion of the Stedding.

It's thin, I know.

I really do prefer the idea that channelers are simply killed off and not re-introduced until a random event triggers that mutation but this was fun.

Weird Harold
06-07-2012, 10:06 AM
I personally don't subscribe to this theory, largely because I think the Stedding are pockets of the Ogier homeworld and not a naturally occurring phenomenon on Earth.

The Stedding don't necessarily have to have anything to do with the Stedding-like properties of a non-Channeling age.

Before I do, I'd like to point out that I prefer the genetic explanation for the rise and fall of channeling because it offers a simple explanation for how channeling came about and how it went away.

There is nothing that says that genetics can't be part of the answer, but your OP is concerned with the conflict between "The Dragon Soul is born in every age" and "Channeling Souls will be born into Channeling Bodies." The simplest resolution to that paradox is that The Dragon Soul can indeed Channel in Every Incarnation, but in some Ages, there is nothing (or very little) to Channel.

If people with the ability to channel are all killed off, that would result in the removal of the channeling gene from the gene pool until the Wheel reintroduces it.

It wouldn't require a pogrom for the Pattern to eliminate Channeling, it would simply need to arrange for a generation or two of no Channelers being reborn.

But when I ask myself about what might make the Stedding expand. Honestly, I've got nothing. I've been thinking about it for the last hour, trying to come up with something.

It isn't so much an expansion of the Stedding but a decline in the accessibility of the True Source. IIRC, RJ said the True Source is "finite but inexhaustible."

If whatever Rand does to Heal the Bore ties up most of the True Source then there won't be much for other Channeling to use until Rand's patch begins to fail and releases the True Source back into the general use pool. The effect would be similar (but multiplied many times) to the problems caused by the BotW around Ebou Dar; Channeling would become much more difficult or completely impossible.

Oden
06-07-2012, 11:21 AM
But let's go one step further. Let's assume that in every Age Rand is born a Sparker. He always channels even in Ages where no one knows about the One Power. He'd have a real hard time teaching anybody else to channel because

a) He'd a be a wilder with a one in four chance of surviving.

b) He wouldn't even know how to test for the ability to channel.

...

Suppose every few thousand years or so, a man pops up who performs miracles. This would upset the balance between saidin and saidar as there is always one active saidin channeler throughout the WOT cycle but, so far as we know, no active saidar channeler outside the Ages where channeling is known to mankind.

Rand's presence in such a scenario would almost certainly necessitate a female counterpart. Not necessarily at the same TIME as him but appearing with the same frequency.


The Dragon is a HotH, a mechanism for the Wheel to correct errors.ROBERT JORDAN
The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out ta'veren, can spit out Heroes as a self-correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. That means that whenever Rand is spun out, he has a purpose. I do not know what would happen if he dies of channelling sickness before that purpose is fullfilled, therefore I presume that the Wheel makes him survive long enough to have an impact. It does not have to be by channelling that he serves his purpose, he might die when he's 15 and still have had time to make a change in the Pattern.
Regarding female channellers to counteract him being a man: Have you ever heard of that old wise woman in the stories? Ever wondered how she could have gotten so old? The answer is that she was a channeller. One of the separating characteristics for channellers is their increased length of life.
Have you ever heard of the old seer? She's a channeller with the Foretelling.
Ever heard of the witch hunt in Europe some 500 years ago? Guess what started it? You've got it! A female channeller. Perhaps there were several females who knew each other. Females have it easy when looking for other channellers of Saidar, sensing a kinship and all, and should therefore be able to locate other sparkers quite easily.
As for regular Saidin users, there are tons of stories about the wise old men in the mountains in Asia who could do extraordinary things. There are stories of wizards in the Dark Ages. These might have been like the Asha'man in Aviendha's future vision. A society that you heard of but never knew where they were. They probably ran out of sparkers to train and simply died off.
Ever read the Old Testament? Did you notice that Moses was the last survivor of the Israeli in the exodus even though he was a man grown when they left Egypt? Moses might have been the Dragon, considering the long lasting effects of his actions.
Another possible Dragon is the Yellow Emperor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Emperor#.22Yellow_Emperor.22).
It seems to me that the Dragon is a uniter of people who strives for order and is a man who likes invention.

When thinking of the occurences where there has been possible channellers, it tends to lead to a bunch of channellers. This suggests that there has been a mutation and then in-breading in order for that location to produce a number channellers instead of just one. Persecution might be an explanation why their genes weren't spread to the general public, re: witch hunt.

Seeker
06-07-2012, 02:08 PM
The Dragon is a HotH, a mechanism for the Wheel to correct errors. That means that whenever Rand is spun out, he has a purpose. I do not know what would happen if he dies of channelling sickness before that purpose is fullfilled, therefore I presume that the Wheel makes him survive long enough to have an impact.

No, no. The Wheel cannot MAKE Rand (or any other Hero) survive. The best it can do is increase the odds. Rand has a purpose but that doesn't mean he will FULFILL his purpose. There are things that lie outside the Wheel's control, otherwise it wouldn't need corrective mechanisms at all.

eht slat meit
06-08-2012, 09:15 AM
I think there's a mistake in assuming that Rand is the solution to the problem of every age, and will be continuously reborn to correct it.

I expect that in the world imagined, he'd end up dead, as envisioned in a thousand flash sequences detailing his loss. After all, the death of the dragon is not ultimate victory.

More to the point, I seem to recall it being written in one of the archives that what the Wheel spins out as a corrective mechanism is specific to the needs of the Age. The Wheel is unlikely to spin out an OP-Hero for a non-OP Age. Seems likely there's an techno-Hero, or a Gaidal or someone more suited to the purpose. After all, with so many names lost to myth, legend and time, there's no way people could begin to guess at which "corrective mechanisms" the Wheel has available.

Tomp
06-08-2012, 09:23 AM
What was the culmination of the age before AOL. By that I mean what ended that age.
Surely the dragon would have been involved in that.

If we assume that it was our age and our time.
That would mean that
1. Either a person in our time starts to wield the power.
2. Or the power is not a factor in the conflict at all and the dragon is a very influential person who fights evil forces in some way.

Thom mentions Moscow (Mosk) and America (Merk) fighting each other in something resembling nuclear war (spears of fire). I think it's a plausible assumption that this is what ended that age.

That means that conflict probably also was a fight between a good and evil, i.e. between the Dragon and the DOs representative.

(Although I don't see the WoT struggle as a struggle between good and evil. I see it as a struggle between humans and evil.)

Zombie Sammael
06-08-2012, 09:28 AM
Thom mentions Moscow (Mosk) and America (Merk) fighting each other in something resembling nuclear war (spears of fire). I think it's a plausible assumption that this is what ended that age.

It was actually a "lance of fire that went around the whole world", which I would agree sounds like a nuclear defence system, but it sounds more a silo that could fire a nuke to anywhere on Earth than a nuclear war per se. The idea of two giants may be drawn from the legends of Gog and Magog which are well-known in the south of England.

Oden
06-08-2012, 10:21 AM
No, no. The Wheel cannot MAKE Rand (or any other Hero) survive. The best it can do is increase the odds. Rand has a purpose but that doesn't mean he will FULFILL his purpose. There are things that lie outside the Wheel's control, otherwise it wouldn't need corrective mechanisms at all.
Making the Dragon a ta'veren in his twenties and stop it when he has channelled a while is an 'easy' way to wastly increase his chances of not dying by channelling per se. Spinning him out as soon as possible if he dies is another way, though it may be too late for him to make a difference.

More to the point, I seem to recall it being written in one of the archives that what the Wheel spins out as a corrective mechanism is specific to the needs of the Age. The Wheel is unlikely to spin out an OP-Hero for a non-OP Age. Seems likely there's an techno-Hero, or a Gaidal or someone more suited to the purpose.
What are the common characteristics of LTT and Rand, besides their ability to channel? Right me if I'm wrong but aren't both leaders of men that sees it as their duty to protect humanity from evil? A person like that is really useful in times of trouble.

The Unreasoner
06-08-2012, 10:44 AM
But let's go one step further. Let's assume that in every Age Rand is born a Sparker. He always channels even in Ages where no one knows about the One Power. He'd have a real hard time teaching anybody else to channel because

a) He'd a be a wilder with a one in four chance of surviving.

b) He wouldn't even know how to test for the ability to channel.


This is fun, but it isn't much more than that. It's a 'what if?' question in a hypothetical universe that is less likely to exist than not.
Is it confirmed that the dragon is reborn in every age?
I don't know. I sort of doubt it. Birgitte could recall only one dull life among thousands. That seems to say that Heroes aren't (generally) permitted a 'vacation incarnation'.
That's really dumb assumption. :D
lol. Maybe. Certainly the simplest explanation for him would be that the Dragon simply is in the unlucky 75%. Less clear is why the Wheel would simply weave waste, or what reason there is for Rand to always be a sparker.
You've forgotten the easiest resolution of the Channeling Soul + Channeling Body in a non-Channeling Age -- The absence of the True Source.
I'm not sure the True Source is gone, I think it's just beyond reach.
Given modern (New Age) traditions about Ley lines and "Places of Power" being remote and difficult to find/access, it would make more sense to "assume" that the proportion of Stedding to True Source access is variable. In ages, like ours, where "magic" is only a myth, most of the world is like a Stedding (Minus the peaceful aura) and no amount of ability will allow Channeling because there is nothing to Channel.

I don't think it's the world, I think it's the people. The Wheel simply stops weaving sparkers, and learners without teachers are non-channelers.

It actually explains the trend in the Third Age. (Roughly) the same number of channelers, but an apparent decline because more and more are learners. Eventually everyone will be a learner, and as for what happens next, I don't know. It could be a pogrom, or it could be something like all 'conscious channelers' (those with the potential to teach the learners) are made damane (or the equivalent), and the sul'dam never quite learn how they do what they do.

***

Anyway, a quote I'm surprised no one posted yet:
Week 18 Question

Who were the first channelers, and how did they learn? By trial and error? Are there any Ages where channeling does not exist?
Robert Jordan

The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.
Yes, as I have set things up, there are Ages when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists. Our own, for one. (The Wheel of Time turns.)


Seems to imply the absence of channeling is due to the ignorance of the people, not the nature of the Earth and/or Source.

Also seems to be a strike against the 'crazy miracle working Dragon man' that would come about if there was some odd channeler who was always a sparker and survived.

Seeker
06-08-2012, 10:56 AM
This is fun, but it isn't much more than that. It's a 'what if?' question in a hypothetical universe that is less likely to exist than not.

What if questions are what sci-fi is all about.


[/quote] lol. Maybe. Certainly the simplest explanation for him would be that the Dragon simply is in the unlucky 75%. Less clear is why the Wheel would simply weave waste, or what reason there is for Rand to always be a sparker.[/quote]

An explanation for the various wandering miracle-worker myths in our culture.

[qupte] I don't think it's the world, I think it's the people. The Wheel simply stops weaving sparkers, and learners without teachers are non-channelers.[/quote]

Not necessarily. As I said in the other thread, if the Wheel never spun out another Sparkers, there is still the White Tower, the Black Tower, the Wise Ones, Kin and Windfinders, all with the ability to Travel and search out all the Learners.

Something more needs to happen for channeling to go away. My thought is that the channeling gene just stops showing up.


Also seems to be a strike against the 'crazy miracle working Dragon man' that would come about if there was some odd channeler who was always a sparker and survived.

Yes, but use your imagination. One channeler every few thousand years or so wouldn't be enough to teach the world that channeling is a thing. And he might not even know what to call it.

But to me the question is whether or not his presence would require a female counterpart. I think yes.

The Unreasoner
06-08-2012, 11:11 AM
What if questions are what Theoryland is all about.
Couldn't have put it better myself (although I suppose I just did ;))
Yes, but use your imagination.
http://images.wikia.com/southpark/images/8/8b/1110Mayor.jpg

Sorry...couldn't resist. Back on topic now:
One channeler every few thousand years or so wouldn't be enough to teach the world that channeling is a thing. And he might not even know what to call it.
Oh I agree. Which is why I didn't rule it out 100%.

I will say that I don't see any reason why this miracle man needs to be the Dragon. In fact I see reasons why it wouldn't be. The nature of the people we generally associate with 'miracle working' is much more humble and aloof than the Dragons we've seen: Buddhist monks/Buddha, Jesus/Saints, benevolent aliens.
But to me the question is whether or not his presence would require a female counterpart. I think yes.
I thought this was where you were going, but I couldn't see how or why this would be the case.

Seeker
06-08-2012, 11:43 AM
I thought this was where you were going, but I couldn't see how or why this would be the case.

Balance.

Maybe the channeler alternates (Sometimes it's a man, sometimes a woman) but if it's always a man then saidin is overrepresented and saidar undereprestented.

GonzoTheGreat
06-08-2012, 12:01 PM
Maybe the channeler alternates (Sometimes it's a man, sometimes a woman) but if it's always a man then saidin is overrepresented and saidar undereprestented.
Poor saidar. Maybe it should ask for some affirmative action. Like, maybe, an Age in which hardly any male channeler lived longer than a decade after starting to channel, while female channelers could do it for centuries. Or something. I'm just speculating, of course.

Seeker
06-08-2012, 12:10 PM
Poor saidar. Maybe it should ask for some affirmative action. Like, maybe, an Age in which hardly any male channeler lived longer than a decade after starting to channel, while female channelers could do it for centuries. Or something. I'm just speculating, of course.

Aaah! I was waiting for that!

The problem is that the Current Age IS (or rather WAS) fundamentally unbalanced due to the taint. See my taint thread. And that everything from the Breaking onward wasn't supposed to happen.

The Unreasoner
06-08-2012, 01:00 PM
Balance.

Maybe the channeler alternates (Sometimes it's a man, sometimes a woman) but if it's always a man then saidin is overrepresented and saidar undereprestented.
Seems reasonable enough. I don't know if a one wilder gender gap needs to be corrected by the Wheel, but I follow the theory.

I still think the evidence is against any channelers at all, but I don't think it's entirely conclusive, either. I definitely don't think it's Rand/the Dragon though (which cracks me up, given the title of the thread). Or his female counterpart. But sure, maybe some random Joe/Jane medicine (wo)man has some real powers. If this was the case, how frequent might it be? Are these people even HotH?
Discuss.
I have read that men (in general) think less about gender than women do (and whites think about race less, straight people think about sexual orientation less (which may be why I get annoyed by my gay friends who feel the need to make every activity 'gay', as opposed to SO-neutral. But 'gay baking' should not be a thing)). To me, the gender of your hypothetical channeler is only significant as a balancing item. Or iow, I don't see what there is to discuss on that point. Plenty on how and why these oddballs come to exist at all, but not much on the gender.
Aaah! I was waiting for that!

The problem is that the Current Age IS (or rather WAS) fundamentally unbalanced due to the taint. See my taint thread. And that everything from the Breaking onward wasn't supposed to happen.
This is something that always bugs me about Terez's arguments: they are frequently self-referential. What if we rejected your conclusions in the other thread? Gonzo's point would then be more than valid.

Seeker
06-08-2012, 01:07 PM
This is something that always bugs me about Terez's arguments: they are frequently self-referential. What if we rejected your conclusions in the other thread? Gonzo's point would then be more than valid.

I wasn't trying to be self-referential, merely avoid the need to repeat myself. If you reject my hypothesis, by all means say so. (Say so here even since it IS relevant to this discussion).

But I don't believe that you can correct imbalance simply by tilting the scales the other way. At least not to that degree. For instance, if Rand (or anyone else for that matter) was one lone male channeler who reappears throughout the Ages, then an entire age where women channel but men do not would leave the saidar overrepresented and saidin underrepresented, creating the opposite problem.

The Unreasoner
06-08-2012, 01:27 PM
I wasn't trying to be self-referential, merely avoid the need to repeat myself. If you reject my hypothesis, by all means say so. (Say so here even since it IS relevant to this discussion).
I disagree with some parts, agree with others. I may post the relevant bits here. But it really is secondary to the point I'm about to make below.
But I don't believe that you can correct imbalance simply by tilting the scales the other way. At least not to that degree. For instance, if Rand (or anyone else for that matter) was one lone male channeler who reappears throughout the Ages, then an entire age where women channel but men do not would leave the saidar overrepresented and saidin underrepresented, creating the opposite problem.

What constitutes balance, though? What things are measured, what weights are they given, what are the groups to be compared? Is your position (and incorporating elements from the other thread): the raw amount of Power channeled per Age must be the same for both saidin and saidar? Wouldn't that mean two (or more) women per man? Would the negligible amount of Power channeled by a handful of aberrations even be worth correcting?

Let's assume the Taint wasn't an error on a metaphysical level (or more specifically, the opposite of the position you took in your other thread). IOW, assume Taint-related injuries need to be balanced by the Wheel. Would the Wheel see balance if the Age's savior was male? Or if the Age's ta'veren were primarily male?

I'm just trying to follow your position. Who are the parties being balanced? Men and women? What is measured? Total number of channelers, years active, raw Power handled? Why is this balanced, but other things are not?

Jemlin
06-08-2012, 02:15 PM
Birgette, a Hero of the Horn, said she remembered having completely unremarkable and "boring" lives, where she simply lived to old age with out doing anything seemingly important.

That goes to show that it is entirely possible for a "Hero of the Horn" to be spun out in a normal life, and not having something grand and remarkable.

As far as Channeling being connected to the soul, I feel like I recall RJ saying that one didn't necessarily channel each life, just because you had the channeling ability in the soul, or that you will be a "sparker".

The Unreasoner
06-08-2012, 02:22 PM
Birgette, a Hero of the Horn, said she remembered having completely unremarkable and "boring" lives, where she simply lived to old age with out doing anything seemingly important.
I acknowledged that. But I still think it's rare for a vacation incarnation for a HotH.

And Birgitte recalled only one such life, not 'lives'.

Seeker
06-08-2012, 02:30 PM
I disagree with some parts, agree with others. I may post the relevant bits here. But it really is secondary to the point I'm about to make below.

What constitutes balance, though? What things are measured, what weights are they given, what are the groups to be compared? Is your position (and incorporating elements from the other thread): the raw amount of Power channeled per Age must be the same for both saidin and saidar? Wouldn't that mean two (or more) women per man? Would the negligible amount of Power channeled by a handful of aberrations even be worth correcting?

Let's assume the Taint wasn't an error on a metaphysical level (or more specifically, the opposite of the position you took in your other thread). IOW, assume Taint-related injuries need to be balanced by the Wheel. Would the Wheel see balance if the Age's savior was male? Or if the Age's ta'veren were primarily male?

I'm just trying to follow your position. Who are the parties being balanced? Men and women? What is measured? Total number of channelers, years active, raw Power handled? Why is this balanced, but other things are not?

Well, there's two fundamental issues involved here. When saidin is tainted, the Source is unbalanced not just because men don't channel but also because of the fact that saidin and saidar push the wheel of time together. Saidin and saidar are fundamental forces, part of the very heart of Creation. True, saidin itself remains pure with the taint only resting on the surface but anything it does would bring the taint along with it. Including the act of pushing the wheel of time. So, now the taint is creating friction between saidin and the wheel.

Nothing impedes saidar's ability to push the wheel so it pushes with full force. But the taint is essentially impeding saidin's ability to push. This knocks the wheel off balance (since saidar is pushing with full force but saidin's force is diminished) and the result is an aberration in the Pattern.

Balance, on the other hand would mean that both sides can push with equal force.

Now, if we're talking about Ages where people can't channel at all then a state of NO CHANNELING PERIOD would be balanced.

But a state where only one side of the Power is active (and thus exerting direct influence on the pattern) would be unbalanced. It doesn't have to be a strict one to one ratio of men to women but both sides must be active in roughly the same proportions for balance to be achieved.

If men start channeling and women don't then saidin is having a direct influence on the events of history but saidar is not. The result is imbalance. Saidin has a greater influence on the Patern which the Wheel would try to correct by introducing more and more female channelers.

One lone channeler who appears every few thousand years would not be enough to tilt the scales in any meaningful way but his presence would cause a minute imbalance. The thing about the Wheel is that it tries to correct little problems (minor imbalances) BEFORE they turn into major imbalances. So, with saidin and saidar pushing with equal strength due to the lack of a taint, the Wheel would spin out a lone female channeler to bring things back into harmony.

The Unreasoner
06-08-2012, 02:56 PM
Okay, I think I see what you're saying. But I'll make a few points:


You still haven't sufficiently explained (to me, at least) why the Taint would affect the Wheel but not the target of a flow of Air. It affects the Ways but not (as far as we know) those Healed by saidin.
If anything, it seems to me that the real issue (if this is an issue at all) would be indirect. A little grease on the surface may not affect how saidin drives the Wheel, but it would lead to a massive difference in 'pressure' (for lack of a better word) since there are far more saidar channelers than saidin.
We don't even know how the driving mechanism works. If the Wheel is driven by some function of the two (for instance, maybe saidin pushes and saidar pulls, so the effect on the Wheel is additive), the Wheel may be blind to differences between the halves of the Source. It would notice changes in the dynamic, but might not know which way the balance is skewed. It would only be capable of knowing that the balance is off.
The amount and status of the halves of the Source may even be entirely irrelevant to the driving process (though I doubt it).
Supposing everything you hypothesized is correct, I think we can rule out direct gender counterparts. Because unless they begin to channel relatively simultaneously, enough time would have passed to make 'correction' a trig problem rather than a straight up arithmetic one. Perhaps men being stronger makes this moot, but in any case I would say the Wheel would weave (for this scenario) gender counters, not counterparts.
I also (still) think that the amount channeled by any one person is small enough that it wouldn't be worth correcting even if it was an issue. Consider channeling in a normal Age where the ability is widespread: what are the odds that the two genders don't have the difference of a few (dozen) channelers between them?

Weird Harold
06-08-2012, 07:20 PM
I'm not sure the True Source is gone, I think it's just beyond reach.


Given modern (New Age) traditions about Ley lines and "Places of Power" being remote and difficult to find/access, it would make more sense to "assume" that the proportion of Stedding to True Source access is variable. In ages, like ours, where "magic" is only a myth, most of the world is like a Stedding (Minus the peaceful aura) and no amount of ability will allow Channeling because there is nothing to Channel.

I don't think it's the world, I think it's the people. The Wheel simply stops weaving sparkers, and learners without teachers are non-channelers.

The problem with assigning all of the blame for the loss of Channeling on "the people" or genetics is that doesn't explain the real world traditions and restrictions placed on "Magic" use.

If rumors, New Age Mystics, and UFOlogists can be believed, Channeling does exist in today's world, but the strongest, most capable "Channeler" is about the same strength as Morgase and Sorilea -- if that. But even those Channelers need to find Ley Lines and "places of power" to make any use of magic power.

It still seems to me to be far less complicated for the Tide of True Source to be out rather than manipulating billions of individuals so that only the weakest Channelers are born, if any.

Consider the droughts caused by so much fresh water being bound up in glaciers during the ice age. Water wasn't gone, it just was harder to reach and there wasn't as much that could be reached. If the True Source follows a similar pattern, only the very strongest -- Rand, Moridin, Lanfear, etc -- would be able to Channel at all and then only as effectively as Morgase or Sorilea.

GonzoTheGreat
06-09-2012, 02:21 AM
But I don't believe that you can correct imbalance simply by tilting the scales the other way. At least not to that degree. For instance, if Rand (or anyone else for that matter) was one lone male channeler who reappears throughout the Ages, then an entire age where women channel but men do not would leave the saidar overrepresented and saidin underrepresented, creating the opposite problem.
Which problem then, obviously, could be addressed by having the men on average being stronger in the OP than the women. That way, if equal numbers of both are channeling, more saidin than saidar will be used.

And guess what?
That's precisely the way it is.

So it does seem possible that there is an overall balance to saidin and saidar use, looked at over the whole of one Turning of the Wheel, even though in some Ages only one man channels, and in another Age women channel a lot more than men.

If you want to maintain a rigorous balance without a Third Age situation and with equal numbers of channelers, then the strength difference would seem to be a really serious problem for you.

Seeker
06-09-2012, 10:02 AM
Okay, I think I see what you're saying. But I'll make a few points:


You still haven't sufficiently explained (to me, at least) why the Taint would affect the Wheel but not the target of a flow of Air. It affects the Ways but not (as far as we know) those Healed by saidin.
If anything, it seems to me that the real issue (if this is an issue at all) would be indirect. A little grease on the surface may not affect how saidin drives the Wheel, but it would lead to a massive difference in 'pressure' (for lack of a better word) since there are far more saidar channelers than saidin.
We don't even know how the driving mechanism works. If the Wheel is driven by some function of the two (for instance, maybe saidin pushes and saidar pulls, so the effect on the Wheel is additive), the Wheel may be blind to differences between the halves of the Source. It would notice changes in the dynamic, but might not know which way the balance is skewed. It would only be capable of knowing that the balance is off.
The amount and status of the halves of the Source may even be entirely irrelevant to the driving process (though I doubt it).
Supposing everything you hypothesized is correct, I think we can rule out direct gender counterparts. Because unless they begin to channel relatively simultaneously, enough time would have passed to make 'correction' a trig problem rather than a straight up arithmetic one. Perhaps men being stronger makes this moot, but in any case I would say the Wheel would weave (for this scenario) gender counters, not counterparts.
I also (still) think that the amount channeled by any one person is small enough that it wouldn't be worth correcting even if it was an issue. Consider channeling in a normal Age where the ability is widespread: what are the odds that the two genders don't have the difference of a few (dozen) channelers between them?


Great Questions. I'll go through them one by one.

You still haven't sufficiently explained (to me, at least) why the Taint would affect the Wheel but not the target of a flow of Air. It affects the Ways but not (as far as we know) those Healed by saidin.

I believe the taint does effect the target of a weave; we just haven't had occasion to witness it. The Ways were created in the Breaking but they only started to “darken” around the time of the Wary of Hundred Years. That was 2000 years.

It took time for the taint's effects to set in.

The target of a flow of Air would have been exposed to minute traces of the taint. The Aes Sedai who were bonded by Logain's group were exposed to minute traces of the taint. But remember Rand did not go mad the very instant he touched saidin; it took time for the effects to become apparent. And now that the taint is gone, none of those people will get any worse.


If anything, it seems to me that the real issue (if this is an issue at all) would be indirect. A little grease on the surface may not affect how saidin drives the Wheel, but it would lead to a massive difference in 'pressure' (for lack of a better word) since there are far more saidar channelers than saidin.

Perhaps but the taint is more than a little grease. RJ likens it to oil only because he wants us to imagine it as a black not because it has the properties of oil. True, we don't know how the pushing mechanism works but we do know there is something BETWEEN saidin and whatever it touches. That alone tells us plenty.

We know that saidin expends energy to turn the Wheel of Time because that's what “turning” means. But saidin won't come into direct contact with the Wheel. It will touch the Wheel through the taint; that means that part of the energy that would have gone into pushing the wheel now goes into carrying the taint which has mass and therefore requires energy to move.

We don't even know how the driving mechanism works. If the Wheel is driven by some function of the two (for instance, maybe saidin pushes and saidar pulls, so the effect on the Wheel is additive), the Wheel may be blind to differences between the halves of the Source. It would notice changes in the dynamic, but might not know which way the balance is skewed. It would only be capable of knowing that the balance is off.

But the balance would still be off.

The amount and status of the halves of the Source may even be entirely irrelevant to the driving process (though I doubt it).

Yes but that's not the only thing to consider. There are two ways the Source can affect the Pattern. One is indirectly by pushing the Wheel of Time and the other is directly through humans who channel the One Power.

If only women are channeling then only saidar is having a direct impact on the course of history and thus the balance is off. Again, it doesn't have to be a strict one to one ratio of men to women but they do have to be channeling in roughly the same proportion to maintain the balance.

Supposing everything you hypothesized is correct, I think we can rule out direct gender counterparts. Because unless they begin to channel relatively simultaneously, enough time would have passed to make 'correction' a trig problem rather than a straight up arithmetic one. Perhaps men being stronger makes this moot, but in any case I would say the Wheel would weave (for this scenario) gender counters, not counterparts.

Men being stronger doesn't matter because – when we're talking about the Source affecting the world through channeling – it's not the amount of power used that matters but the influence it has on history. If Moiraine heals a monarch, using only a trickle of saidar, and saves that person's life, that's a major way that saidar has influenced the pattern.

In the Current Age, women have been channeling A LOT. Men have been channeling very very little. That's an imbalance.

If an age goes by where men channel a tiny bit but women don't channel at all, that's also an imbalance. It has to be in roughly the same proportion (having the same influence on events).

I also (still) think that the amount channeled by any one person is small enough that it wouldn't be worth correcting even if it was an issue. Consider channeling in a normal Age where the ability is widespread: what are the odds that the two genders don't have the difference of a few (dozen) channelers between them?

See above.

P.S. You are one of the most interesting people I've talked to on this board. Please stick around.

eht slat meit
06-10-2012, 12:50 AM
What are the common characteristics of LTT and Rand, besides their ability to channel? Right me if I'm wrong but aren't both leaders of men that sees it as their duty to protect humanity from evil? A person like that is really useful in times of trouble.

That's a lesser talent, and one that is shared by Artur Hawkwing, Perrin Goldeneyes, Matrim Cauthon and no doubt a host of other Heroes of the Horn.

There is something special that defines each of them beyond their ability to be leaders of men and protect humanity from evil. For Rand, it's his Dragon nature, his surpassing might in the One Power. For Mat, it's his fixation on luck and trickster nature. For Perrin, it's an obsessiveness shrouded in wolf-like parallels.

The Dragon is not the Creator, and what it comes down to for me is the old mantra that prefaces every book. Myths and legends fade, and even Dragons may be long forgotten when the Age that gave them birth comes again.

There should be other Heroes, other corrective mechanisms more appropriate to the Age the Wheel assigns them. In a technological era where the OP is a figment of the imagination and is even overmatched by atomic power duplicated by war machines, and transportation that can take people from one side of the globe to the other within hours, a man who conjures lightnings and portals is nowhere near as special.

An Einstein, on the other hand, would be a true marvel if he had the power to lead men and the ta'veren nature to give his theories life not just on a blackboard, but within his own lifespan.

GonzoTheGreat
06-10-2012, 04:33 AM
Perhaps but the taint is more than a little grease. RJ likens it to oil only because he wants us to imagine it as a black not because it has the properties of oil.
Do you have evidence for this?
The descriptions in the books suggest precisely the opposite of what you're saying to me.

The core of him floated in emptiness. He could see the light – saidin – even with his eyes closed, feel the warmth of it, surrounding him, surrounding everything, suffusing everything. It wavered like a candle flame seen through oiled paper. Rancid oil. Stinking oil.
He reached for it – he was not sure how he reached, but it was something, a movement, a stretching toward the light, toward saidin – and caught nothing, as if running his hands through water. It felt like a slimy pond, scum floating atop clean water below, but he could not scoop up any of the water. Time and again it trickled through his fingers, not even droplets of the water remaining, only the slick scum, making his skin crawl.
If it were black oil, then he couldn't see through it. Instead, it seems that olive oil would be a better comparison here. The scum (oil) remaining on his "fingers" while the water falls back also does suggest that the comparison was intended to be more literal than you give it credit for.

Saidin filled him. He felt as if his bones were vibrating, felt the red-hot, ice-cold flow of the One Power, felt truly alive as he never was without it, felt the oil-slick taint ... No! And silently he screamed back at himself from beyond the emptiness, It's coming for you! It'll kill all of us! He hurled it all at the black bulge, standing out a full span from the Waygate, now. He did not know what it was that he hurled, or how, but in the heart of that darkness bloomed a coruscating fountain of light.
Here too the "oil-slick" suggests that it has the sticking and slippery properties of oil, while the color is not mentioned at all.

Rand could not see Nynaeve any longer. He could not see anything, feel anything. He swam in surging seas of flame, scrambled across collapsing mountains of ice. The taint flowed like an ocean tide, trying to sweep him away. If he lost control for an instant, it would strip away everything that was him and carry that down the conduit, too. As bad, or maybe worse, despite the tide of filth flooding through that odd flower, the taint on the male half of the Source seemed no less. It was like oil floating on water in a coating so thin you would not notice till you touched the surface, yet covering the vastness of the male half, it was an ocean in itself. He had to hold on. He had to. But for how long? How long could he hold on?
If the color is really more important than the oiliness, then why is it that the color is specifically discounted (you wouldn't notice till you touched the surface) but the way in which it covers the water underneath is stressed as the important feature?

Maesterbaevern
06-12-2012, 02:50 AM
I saw Chronicle (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1706593/) yesterday and could not help to see a lot of parallels to WoT.

Three guys finding a weird source of power and growing stronger and stronger as they practice. This sounds a bit like the Eye of the World being found by three sparkers/learners. The powers also seem alike with the exception of flight.

As for your thoughts on remarkable people showing up in periodic intervals throughout history, I think this film gives some idea on how channelers can end up in a time where the True Power is not commonly known.

I will not disclose the ending due to spoilers, but I recommend it.

Boli
06-12-2012, 03:44 AM
Great Questions. I'll go through them one by one.

I believe the taint does effect the target of a weave; we just haven't had occasion to witness it. The Ways were created in the Breaking but they only started to “darken” around the time of the Wary of Hundred Years. That was 2000 years.

It took time for the taint's effects to set in.


I believe this is a misnomer; the ways did not become dark until during the war of the hundred years - in a time of great upheval; and more importantly vastly increased Aes Sedai distrust. It is THOUGHT that the taint on saidien was responsible, but the ways only became slightly dark after Hawkwing before becoming un-useable within a few hundred years. If the saidien taint was responsible for the ways corruption the darkness would have happened *much* earlier.

It is more likely that one or more waygates are in the blight and the blight (and therefore the shadow) are corrupting them just as a plant would become poisoned if one of its roots was drawing up corrupted water.

I did not mean destroy, exactly.” Loial leaned on his long-handled axe. “A Waygate was destroyed once, less than five hundred years after the Breaking, according to Damelle, daughter of Ala daughter of Soferra, because the Gate was near a stedding that had fallen to the Blight. There are two or three Gates lost in the Blight as it is. But she wrote that it was very difficult, and required thirteen Aes Sedai working together with a sa’angreal. Another attempt she wrote of, by only nine, during the Trolloc Wars, damaged the Gate in such a way that the Aes Sedai were pulled into—” He cut off, ears wriggling with embarrassment, and knuckled his wide nose. Everyone was staring at him, even Verin and the Aiel. “I do let myself be carried away, sometimes. The Waygate. Yes. I cannot destroy it, but if I remove both Avendesora leaves completely, they will die.” He grimaced at the thought. “The only means of opening the Gate again will be for the Elders to bring the Talisman of Growing. Though I suppose an Aes Sedai could cut a hole in it.” This time he shuddered. Damaging a Waygate must have seemed like tearing up a book to him. A moment later, he was grim-faced once more. “I will go now.”

I don't believe *any* action done by saidien was corrupted even whilst it was tainted; otherwise things such as Callandor's shield would have failed/ceased to work (as that was made with tainted saidien)

The taint corrupts the weilders (and thus their thread in the pattern) but constructs and flows of saidien have never been considered "tainted" by those channeling them... only by those who believe it is corrupted but do not channel it.

GonzoTheGreat
06-12-2012, 04:11 AM
I believe this is a misnomer; the ways did not become dark until during the war of the hundred years - in a time of great upheval; and more importantly vastly increased Aes Sedai distrust. It is THOUGHT that the taint on saidien was responsible, but the ways only became slightly dark after Hawkwing before becoming un-useable within a few hundred years. If the saidien taint was responsible for the ways corruption the darkness would have happened *much* earlier.
Funnily enough, that was also a time when the Blight expanded, and swallowed one or more Stedding which had Waygates beside them.

Seth Baker
06-19-2012, 02:35 AM
It isn't so much an expansion of the Stedding but a decline in the accessibility of the True Source. IIRC, RJ said the True Source is "finite but inexhaustible."

If whatever Rand does to Heal the Bore ties up most of the True Source then there won't be much for other Channeling to use until Rand's patch begins to fail and releases the True Source back into the general use pool. The effect would be similar (but multiplied many times) to the problems caused by the BotW around Ebou Dar; Channeling would become much more difficult or completely impossible.

That's not correct. Finite means that there is a limit to it; but inexhaustible means that it can't be used up. You're suggesting that Rand's solution is to make some kind of standing weave of all of the One Power - but I think it's pretty clear that his solution is going to be remaking the Dark One's prison so that it can be whole again for the next Second Age. That's not going to use a standing weave, and it's CERTAINLY not going to tie up any of the One Power, since the One Power was unencumbered prior to the drilling of the Bore.

Weird Harold
06-19-2012, 08:41 AM
That's not correct. Finite means that there is a limit to it; but inexhaustible means that it can't be used up. You're suggesting that Rand's solution is to make some kind of standing weave of all of the One Power - but I think it's pretty clear that his solution is going to be remaking the Dark One's prison so that it can be whole again for the next Second Age. That's not going to use a standing weave, and it's CERTAINLY not going to tie up any of the One Power, since the One Power was unencumbered prior to the drilling of the Bore.
Accessibility of the OP isn't inquestion for the Second Age; that is when Channeling was (re)discovered, after all.

What the Tidal OP theory addresses is the accessibility of the OP -- and modern traditions about "Magic" including Ley Lines and Places of Power -- in the "Fourth" through "First" Ages of a Turning. Inherent in the theory is a gradual return of the True Source to accessibility in the "First Age" so that it can be (re)discovered and begin a new AOL.

It doesn't necessarily have to have any relationship to Rand's repair of the DO's prison, but that is going to be a significant event that might affect the availability of the True Source -- as opposed to some random tidal effect.

Seth Baker
06-19-2012, 09:52 AM
Accessibility of the OP isn't inquestion for the Second Age; that is when Channeling was (re)discovered, after all.

What the Tidal OP theory addresses is the accessibility of the OP -- and modern traditions about "Magic" including Ley Lines and Places of Power -- in the "Fourth" through "First" Ages of a Turning. Inherent in the theory is a gradual return of the True Source to accessibility in the "First Age" so that it can be (re)discovered and begin a new AOL.

It doesn't necessarily have to have any relationship to Rand's repair of the DO's prison, but that is going to be a significant event that might affect the availability of the True Source -- as opposed to some random tidal effect.

I get what you're saying, but don't think that it can mechanically work in the story that RJ has set up. It just doesn't make sense. Especially since we saw post-repair scenes through the Aviendha Rhuidean chapter and none of the channelers there noticed any difference.

I'm not really a fan of the Tidal OP theory. I think it kind of contradicts the metaphysical framework that RJ set up - the One Power drives the Wheel of Time, but we're to believe that it somehow withdraws from the entire world at an Age change? There are mechanics that you can make up to support this theory but... they're made up, and I don't think RJ left enough commentary on WOT metaphysics for us to figure out what's going on. At least, nowhere that I've seen.

Aulis Vaara
06-19-2012, 11:50 AM
To add to that: the more things of importance happen in one age, the less is available for the other ages.

If everything happened in the second and third ages, why would 4, 5, 6, 7 even be there? Putting the end of channeling in the current age is stealing it from the future/past, and this story really deserves its own age.

Weird Harold
06-19-2012, 02:52 PM
I get what you're saying, but don't think that it can mechanically work in the story that RJ has set up.

On the contrary, the world RJ built for his story encompasses our world, or some analog thereof, and any explanation for the loss of any memory of Channeling has to include our r/w concepts and traditions.

It just doesn't make sense. Especially since we saw post-repair scenes through the Aviendha Rhuidean chapter and none of the channelers there noticed any difference.

1: I don't believe Aviendha saw a true future -- if she saw anything more than a halucination.

2: Channeling won't disappear like someone flipped a switch. Channeling will take, at least, a century or two, if not the entire fourth age, to fade away completely.

I'm not really a fan of the Tidal OP theory. I think it kind of contradicts the metaphysical framework that RJ set up - the One Power drives the Wheel of Time, but we're to believe that it somehow withdraws from the entire world at an Age change?

1: RJ's metaphysics pretty much requires that the OP be unavailable to Channelers during at least the "seventh" and "first" ages. Or that no Channelers be spun out, which contradicts the premise of this thread that the Dragon Soul is spun out in every age and that channeling souls always get spun out into channeling bodies -- which requires far more manipulation by the Wheel/Pattern than the true Source simply receding beyond human reach.


2: The True Source/OP would NOT stop driving the WOT, it would just ONLY drive the WOT without being accessible for human-scale tasking.

If everything happened in the second and third ages, why would 4, 5, 6, 7 even be there? Putting the end of channeling in the current age is stealing it from the future/past, and this story really deserves its own age.

According to RJ's mantra of "History becomes Legend and Legend becomes Myth before knowledge is lost completely to the Mists of Time," the loss of Channeling has to happen before the end of the Next Age. That leaves the Fifth, Sixth and Seventh Ages without Channeling so that it can be re-discovered in the "First Age" and be developed enough to make a new AOL in the next Turning.

Marking the end of this Age with an "Event" that begins the decline, and eventual loss, of Channeling by returning the True Source/OP to its primary task of Turning the WOT instead of diverting it to human comfort/whims fits with RJ's Cosmology that requires Channeling to be lost long enough for even myths to "fade away into the mists of Time."

It doesn't detract from this story to set up the next story as dealing with the consequences of ending this Age.

Boli
06-20-2012, 05:18 AM
Robert Jordan
As regards Randland being the future/part of our world, he made a reference to the game 'Chinese Whispers'. He said that, like in the game, the happenings of our time/age will be changed/twisted [my words] into Randland's myths, and similarly the occurrences in Randland will/have become our myths.
He also mentioned the fact that he tried to 'reverse-engineer' [his word] the current myths that we have into WoT's happenings/history, and our history into WoT's myths.

Scotty1489
Is our earth a future or past turn of the wheel?

Robert Jordan
Both. The characters in the books are the source of many of our myths and legends and we are the source of many of theirs. You can look two ways along a wheel.


Robert Jordan

The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.

Yes, as I have set things up, there are Ages when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists. Our own, for one. (The Wheel of Time turns.)

RJ was also very clear about a few things: that it was the rediscovery of channelling, not the One Power which heralded the new age; basically he never admitted that the One Power ebbed and flowed throughout the ages; but it was the knowledge to channel it which did. Taking Myths and Legends into account we can see that the "final" myths of our world... come from the 20th century or earlier basically the landing on the moon and the giants of Mosk and Merk so we can surmise one of two theories.

1. Mosk and Merk destroyed the world ending “our” age making our age the 7th and the 1st age one of barbarism where civilisation was rebuilt from scratch and channelling was re-discovered at the end of the 1st age... to an age more likely to believe in it.
2. Tamylyn was reborn to herald the end of our age and the revolutions which followed signalled the end of the 1st age; and began the 2nd Age (of legends) where war was forgotten and people lived in peace and harmony.

Of the two I think the first is far more likely, especially given as RJ began planning the book in 1985; at a time where the Cold War was in the forefront of many of people's minds; and there is nothing even suggesting exploration of the stars or any science fiction elements beyond landing on the moon; it will also allow far more time for corruption of our history into myth.

Looking at the major myths we can also theorise that a previous reincarnation of Rand was Noah – a flood myth is prevalent throughout most cultures (due to the end of the last ice age) where one man heralded the end of a previous age by destroying the corruption and unworthy; The Dragon destroying and saving the world to a tee.

Whether Noah was the herald of our age or the one before is not particularly clear however but aspects such as him - and his ancestors living *far* longer than normal and whilst nothing of him suggests having magic... only belief and presence (ta'veren) he could quite easily be a latent channeller. Nyneave had slowed in her age even though she was unaware of channelling. - the same could be true for others.

I don't think the 4th age would be the one to have channelling disappear there is simply too much that needs to be resolved with the slavery of people with the power. I see that being the theme to the next age. We better find out about the pattern of the 7 ages once the final book comes our – I'll admit it has been bugging me for a while :P

Weird Harold
06-20-2012, 02:01 PM
1. Mosk and Merk destroyed the world ending “our” age making our age the 7th and the 1st age one of barbarism where civilisation was rebuilt from scratch and channelling was re-discovered at the end of the 1st age... to an age more likely to believe in it.

2. Tamylyn was reborn to herald the end of our age and the revolutions which followed signalled the end of the 1st age; and began the 2nd Age (of legends) where war was forgotten and people lived in peace and harmony.

Of the two I think the first is far more likely, ...

There is no reason that both couldn't be likely. There is no fixed time frame for an "Age," and an "Age of Barbarism" following an apocalyptic war before Channeling is rediscovered to usher in an Age of Legends is far from impossible.

I think the fact that the label "Third Age" is commonly used obscures the fact that it is only a label of convenience. Any Age could be labeled "the Third Age" by those who live in it -- another, equivalent, label would be "The Present
Age"

I don't think the 4th age would be the one to have channelling disappear there is simply too much that needs to be resolved with the slavery of people with the power. I see that being the theme to the next age. We better find out about the pattern of the 7 ages once the final book comes our – I'll admit it has been bugging me for a while :P

Even if the current Age's 3,000+ years is a typical length for "An Age," that is more than enough time to resolve any lingering issues about Slavery and for Channeling to fade away completely.

It took an untold number of centuries for Channeling to develop from a few practioners at the beginning of the AOL to a civilization built around the OP and Channeling. It took an entire Age for channeling to mature, another entire Age to deal with the DO, and will probably take another entire Age for Channeling to fade away. Channeling will end with as few practioners as it began with; "Tamyrlin" was the "First Channeler" and some singular "Merlin" type character will be credited with being the "Last Channeler."

The "Story of Channeling" can only consume three of the seven Ages, since it takes a full age for each stage of "Legend to Myth to Forgotten." There are also three similar Ages going into the Future plus the Present Age for a total of Seven Ages in a full Turning. The Future Ages are required by the bidirectional nature of circular time; if Past and Future are simply a matter of which way you are facing, the there must be an equivalent to "Legend, Myth,Forgotten" in each direction.

Ozymandias
08-07-2012, 12:44 PM
The "Story of Channeling" can only consume three of the seven Ages, since it takes a full age for each stage of "Legend to Myth to Forgotten."

I'm not sure this is the case, as much as just a colloquialism. It doesn't have to be an exact age. Its just a generic reference point. For example, most of the early Third Age is legend at this point. Hasn't been an entire Age, though. You could even say certain of the stories are already myth, despite not existing for more than an Age. Like the ones regarding Avendesora, which has only existed for, say, 2800 years or however long its been the unique chora tree left.

Zombie Sammael
08-07-2012, 02:28 PM
Has anyone ever considered that channeling might actually be a permanent change introduced in one turning of the Wheel and which is now present in all ages? We know there are minute differences between the Ages in each turning; I'd always assumed that over the course of several turnings, that would render each Age unrecognisable from a much earlier version of that Age. If channeling just appeared and stuck around at one point, it could just be one more small difference that added up over (heh) time.

Weird Harold
08-07-2012, 03:17 PM
I'm not sure this is the case, as much as just a colloquialism. It doesn't have to be an exact age. Its just a generic reference point. For example, most of the early Third Age is legend at this point. Hasn't been an entire Age, though. ...

In the real world, you would be absolutely correct. Even astrological Ages, like the Age of Aquarius, don't have a precisely determinable starting or ending point.

In large part, the WOT exhibits the same piecemeal transition of ages the real world does; Specific events or people become myths and legends independent of the Seven Ages of the Wheel Of Time.

But this IS the WOT and there are Seven Ages and those Ages have clearly defined starting/ending points -- not necessarily detectible by humans, but markers as precise as a Clock Tolling midnight.

RJ said that the discovery of Channeling marked the beginning of the Second Age (AOL) and the Drilling of the Bore marked the end of that Age. There is some dispute as to whether The Breaking is part of the Third Age or whether it is an interregnum between Ages; but whether the Event marking the beginning of the Third Age Was the Bore or the Death of the Last Male Aes Sedai, as calendar makers assigned, there was a singular event that marked the Changing of each Age in a cosmological sense.

In terms of the Seven Ages of the WOT, the AOL represents the discovery and rise of Channeling, The current, Third, Age represents the Fall and Decline of Channeling, and the Next, Fourth Age has to include the demise/loss of Channeling even if it isn't the central theme of the Age.

Even though there is an "Event" marking the changing of an Age in a cosmological sense, the process you describe will play a role in the change. People living through the changing of an Age generally won't notice or find out that the Age has changed for quite some time.

For Example, the beginning of The Atomic Age in the RW happened either when the first sustained chain reaction was initiated, or (more probably) when the Trinity Test exploded at White Sands, New Mexico. In either case, only a few people knew about the "Event" and the rest of the world remained clueless for months or years, until realization spread that a New Age had begun. That lack of recognition in the wider world doesn't change the fact that the Atomic Age probably began in a microsecond or so on July 16, 1945.

Weird Harold
08-07-2012, 03:22 PM
Has anyone ever considered that channeling might actually be a permanent change introduced in one turning of the Wheel and which is now present in all ages?

I don't recall the question that prompted the answer, but RJ said that Channeling was not possible in some ages.

The basic circular time cosmology of the WOT basically eliminates any permanent changes, even though there are minor differences from one Turning to the next.

Marie Curie 7
08-07-2012, 09:06 PM
Has anyone ever considered that channeling might actually be a permanent change introduced in one turning of the Wheel and which is now present in all ages? We know there are minute differences between the Ages in each turning; I'd always assumed that over the course of several turnings, that would render each Age unrecognisable from a much earlier version of that Age. If channeling just appeared and stuck around at one point, it could just be one more small difference that added up over (heh) time.

As Weird Harold indicated, for channeling to become a permanent change in every Age is something that would be too large a difference for an Age, even considering the variations that might exist after many turnings. From RJ:

Interview: Apr 7th, 2001
Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=144#4)

Aan'allein: You talked before about the same Age in different Turnings, you can compare them to tapestries, they look alike at first sight. I was wondering, when at first sight, what would make a difference... Two points I'm really interested in. [*grumble* A stupid mobile phone was apparently not switched off here; yet again... I think Leiden was the only question session not interrupted by this.] Level of technology and gender related...if for example the roles of men and women were switched between Ages, would the tapestries still look alike at first sight?

Robert Jordan: Ah, but you're not gonna have that sort of switch. In this Age, how can you have a switch? One of the things for instance in the Age that I wrote. One of the things...For instance, I've been accused by some people of ignoring the feminist struggle. Well, there is no feminist struggle in this world, because there is no need for one. No one says a woman can't do this because she is a woman. A woman wants to be a blacksmith, she can learn to be a blacksmith, and she becomes a blacksmith, or a merchant or a wagon driver, or a worker on the docks, or wherever else. All of that took place, took place a long time ago. And they're very good at it. That sets the whole reasons why this should come about. Three thousand years ago the world was destroyed, by men. There is one group that has survived for that three thousand years, one organization that has managed to stick together for three thousand years, and have a great influence on history, and that is a group of women.

Okay, so you just don't have, you just don't have it. To have a reversal of roles means... absolutely nothing.

Aan'allein: Okay, so the sociological results would always be the same, every Turning...?

Robert Jordan: Ah, that is one of the things, one of the things that would be a large, a very large change. Uhm, it's gonna be the smaller details, smaller things than that which change.

And yes, RJ did say that channeling is not possible in some Ages (and that would presumably apply for ANY turning):

TOR Questions of the Week, August 2004-January 2005 (http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/tor-questions-of-week.html)

Week 18 Question: Who were the first channelers, and how did they learn? By trial and error? Are there any Ages where channeling does not exist?

Robert Jordan Answers: The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.

Yes, as I have set things up, there are Ages when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists. Our own, for one. (The Wheel of Time turns.)

Marie Curie 7
08-07-2012, 09:17 PM
RJ said that the discovery of Channeling marked the beginning of the Second Age (AOL) and the Drilling of the Bore marked the end of that Age. There is some dispute as to whether The Breaking is part of the Third Age or whether it is an interregnum between Ages; but whether the Event marking the beginning of the Third Age Was the Bore or the Death of the Last Male Aes Sedai, as calendar makers assigned, there was a singular event that marked the Changing of each Age in a cosmological sense.

Discovery of channeling marked the beginning of the Second Age, or at least the end of the Age before (from one of the same quotes I gave in the previous post):

TOR Questions of the Week, August 2004-January 2005 (http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/tor-questions-of-week.html)

Week 18 Question: Who were the first channelers, and how did they learn? By trial and error? Are there any Ages where channeling does not exist?

Robert Jordan Answers: The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.

That is, even the demarcation of the First/Second Ages is not clearly delineated.


In terms of the Seven Ages of the WOT, the AOL represents the discovery and rise of Channeling, The current, Third, Age represents the Fall and Decline of Channeling, and the Next, Fourth Age has to include the demise/loss of Channeling even if it isn't the central theme of the Age.


Well, it may be that channeling will begin to decline somewhat during the Fourth Age, but it will not go away during the Fourth Age:

BarnesandNoble.com Book Club Q&A with Brandon Sanderson (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=428#96)
July 2009

Aldoth: The question that I have for you is, now that you know the ending of Wheel of Time, after the final book has been released will it be a world that you could set a game in? Or will it be like Tolkien where after the end of Lord of the Rings the world is pretty much over? I ask because it looks to be a great place to set an RPG and I want to know if I should be looking to a time before The Eye of the World or if I should run a new age?

Brandon Sanderson: I'm going to stick pretty close to things Mr. Jordan has said or implied regarding this. Things he has said have implied strongly that it is not going to be like Tolkien; though the Wheel will eventually turn to a point where the One Power is forgotten and the land becomes like our world, that is NOT the Fourth Age. I think it would still be a fantastic place to set an RPG game.

Weird Harold
08-08-2012, 08:21 AM
That is, even the demarcation of the First/Second Ages is not clearly delineated.

I think RJ was speaking from a Historian's perspective, there -- from the mindset of Ozymandias' assertion. That is distinct from the perspective of the Cosmology that dictates Seven Ages and only Seven Ages.

From a Historian's perspective, there are far more than seven ages, and the turning points that define them are arbitrary and chosen by historians long after the fact -- as the "End of the Breaking" was arbitrarily set as "the death of the last male Aes Sedai" some hundred years after the fact, when the exact identity of the last male Aes Sedai was long forgotten, let alone the date and time of his death.

However, from a cosmological perspective each of the Seven Ages of the WOT must have some defining point or event that marks the change, whether mankind can define or pinpoint it or not. There is some point on the circular timeline where it is no longer one Age, but the Next Age.


Well, it may be that channeling will begin to decline somewhat during the Fourth Age, but it will not go away during the Fourth Age:

There is no doubt that the Fourth Age will begin with Channeling essentially unchanged. But the question is, "What will be the state of Channeling at the end of the Fourth Age?"

I think that, in order for Channeling to be completely eliminated and then forgotten by beginning of the next Second Age, Channeling has to have declined to the point that the Fifth Age will begin without any Channeling at all.

Rand and Mat have started the process of replacing "magic" with "technology" and that is the logical theme for the Fourth Age. That sort of theme requires the demise of Channeling so that Technology can resolve the crisis-point at the end of Fourth Age.

GonzoTheGreat
08-08-2012, 08:29 AM
Rand and Mat have started the process of replacing "magic" with "technology" and that is the logical theme for the Fourth Age. That sort of theme requires the demise of Channeling so that Technology can resolve the crisis-point at the end of Fourth Age.
Only if channeling and technology can't be combined.
Nynaeve is doing so, in the area of medical technology, with using both herbs and Healing.

It seems more likely that in the Fourth Age there'll be a combination of technology and channeling, rather than a cessation of either.

Weird Harold
08-08-2012, 10:10 AM
Only if channeling and technology can't be combined.
Nynaeve is doing so, in the area of medical technology, with using both herbs and Healing.

It seems more likely that in the Fourth Age there'll be a combination of technology and channeling, rather than a cessation of either.

If not for the minor detail that Channeling must decline and disappear soon (in cosmological time-scale) I'd almost agree with you. But Technology and Channeling combined, or Channeling-based Technology, was the province of the AOL.

The time of Channeling has to end soon enough to be completely forgotten before the Wheel Turns again.

GonzoTheGreat
08-08-2012, 10:25 AM
But that depends on a literal interpretation of "The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again."
Specifically, it assumes it can't all happen in one single Age.

Suppose that the Seventh Age ends with a really spectacular fight, rather than the half hearted affairs we've seen so far.
Then we could have a situation where the Dragon uses a super-Choedan Kal to stuff the escaped DO back into his prison. As a result, all channelers in the whole world would be burned out. Side effects would be that most people also died, and so much of the OP would be used that the Wheel of Time turned slower, making it impossible to get anything done, thus totally obliterating all civilisation, all learning, and (eventually) all stories of what had happened. Only after a long time (a million years, say) would the True Source start to recover, and channeling would become possible once again. That's then the start of the Second Age.

Not saying this is wholly accurate, but I don't see why we should assume that forgetting stuff needs to take many ages, when we know it can be done a lot quicker, if people just try.

Weird Harold
08-08-2012, 11:49 AM
But that depends on a literal interpretation of "The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again."

Specifically, it assumes it can't all happen in one single Age.

Exactly!

It depends on accepting the cosmology as presented.

GonzoTheGreat
08-08-2012, 11:51 AM
It depends on accepting the cosmology as presented.
No, it depends on accepting a simplistic interpretation of that cosmology. That's not quite the same, I think.

Weird Harold
08-08-2012, 12:36 PM
No, it depends on accepting a simplistic interpretation of that cosmology. That's not quite the same, I think.

The Cosmology as presented is anything but simplistic. the basic principle is stated simplisticly, but the literal interpretation of the cosmology isn't simplistic at all.

NobleHam
08-21-2012, 04:48 PM
Ishamael implies that the Dragon is always the champion of the Creator against the Dark One. That every turning of the Wheel, the Dragon faces the Dark One. So I would assume that the Dragon only lives twice per turning, once in the Second Age, when the Bore is opened, and once in the Third Age, when he permanently seals the Bore until the next Second Age. There's no reason for the Dragon to be born if the Dark One is sealed up. Of course, this assumes that the Dark One is permanently sealed at the end of the Third Age. Maybe there's another Bore in the 4th or 5th Age, followed by another Tarmon Gai'don in the 6th or 7th Age. All we really know is that the prison is whole when we come back around to the Second Age.

I don't think the One Power could simply not exist in other ages, though, but rather people would forget how to use it or go into hiding. After all, the One Power turns the Wheel of Time, so Ages couldn't pass without it. It's likely that in those times without channeling, those who could learn to channel just never did, and those with the spark either died or became wilders who didn't know that they could channel and therefore never did it consciously or for anything inexplicable, like Nynaeve. That is until Tamyrlin (Merlin) (re)discovered channeling.

Ieyasu
08-21-2012, 08:38 PM
Ishamael implies that the Dragon is always the champion of the Creator against the Dark One. That every turning of the Wheel, the Dragon faces the Dark One. So I would assume that the Dragon only lives twice per turning, once in the Second Age, when the Bore is opened, and once in the Third Age, when he permanently seals the Bore until the next Second Age. There's no reason for the Dragon to be born if the Dark One is sealed up. Of course, this assumes that the Dark One is permanently sealed at the end of the Third Age. Maybe there's another Bore in the 4th or 5th Age, followed by another Tarmon Gai'don in the 6th or 7th Age. All we really know is that the prison is whole when we come back around to the Second Age.

I don't think the One Power could simply not exist in other ages, though, but rather people would forget how to use it or go into hiding. After all, the One Power turns the Wheel of Time, so Ages couldn't pass without it. It's likely that in those times without channeling, those who could learn to channel just never did, and those with the spark either died or became wilders who didn't know that they could channel and therefore never did it consciously or for anything inexplicable, like Nynaeve. That is until Tamyrlin (Merlin) (re)discovered channeling.

The problem with this line of thought is that Robert Jordan is quoted as saying that the dragon soul is spun out in other ages in a non-dragon role. Check Terez' signature for a link to the quotes database.

Lost One
12-14-2012, 10:00 PM
Yes.. I am new here and still going through all of these wonderful threads. Been reading the sacred text since it a friend introduced me to it in the early 90's, and just finished re-reading the series. ( I really hoe the world does nto end on the 21st..lol).

I was reading browsing the theories, and came across one someone had addressed all of the various forms of symbolism, ie, the Dragon+ the serpent eating its tail, ect.. and another which dealt with Lucifer in relation to the Bringer of Light (I did find that one).

ODEN: 2011-05-01 (#31)
"Moridin beeing more than an elevated forsaken fits with RJ's use of myths. Ishamael, betrayer of hope, is not far from the fall of Lucifer. He was one of the arch angels and is now known as the devil, at least in some christian cultures and in movies.

You can also say that the dragon is Lucifer because Lucifer means light-bearer or light-bringer, in latin, and it's said to be derived from morning star. I think the name is all we need to say that Lucifer is the dragon.
Light-bringer - Champion of the Light
Morning star - Lord of the morning "

In the books, I think it is Ishmael who says that there have been ages in which the Dragon was turned to the Dark one. We also know that events of “our” Age are referred to as stories from before the AOL, ie Lenn who flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle made fire,.. Mosk with his lance of fire, .. (TEOTW, chapter 4, page 43).
In our age, with Lucifer being referred to as the Dragon, as well as the serpent (which is some cultures also means Dragon).. Might this be an age when the Dragon was turned to the DO with Lucifer/the Dragon succumbing to Shaitan/Satan?

Possibilities?

Jalyn
12-14-2012, 11:02 PM
It's possible that we live in an age where the Dragon turned and The Lord of the Morning became a champion of the DO. It's also possible that the stories have merely become so incredibly corrupted that we no longer understand that The Lord of the Morning really was the champion of the light.

Although, given my personal little hope that Ishy is a former "dragon" that turned, this gives me a bit to think about. Thanks, Lost One. :)

(Regarding the world ending and the loss of the last book, I've decided that this is inevitable...
Around CoS coming out, I hooked my dad on the series. Once he was well and truly into it, he asked me "when does it end?"
I said, "Well, RJ says three books. RJ has been saying three more books since TGH."
My father then decided to tell me that either he was going to die before the series ended, in which case he'd haunt me or the author was going to die without finishing it, in which case he'd kill me.
You get where this is going... I've decided that the world will obviously end on the 21st just to make my father's prophecy of not being able to finish the series true. I keep telling him that the book is written and it WILL be in a library in heaven...
Also, thank you Brandon Sanderson for saving my life.)

suttree
12-15-2012, 12:56 AM
We know Rands soul is the creators champion and that him and Ishy are linked/often spun out together a la Birgitte/Gaidal. When you say Ishy was the creators champion are you suggesting they switch place occasionally?

GonzoTheGreat
12-15-2012, 04:09 AM
"Light Bringer" was a title used by a Babylonian (or similar) king. Just as pharaohs in Egypt and emperors in Japan claimed to be descended from the Sun god or even to be incarnations of that Sun god, so too did this king claim heavenly antecedents.

The belief that it refers to Satan is a result of a misunderstanding by someone who read the text but did not know the actual background.

Lost One
12-15-2012, 11:43 AM
It's possible that we live in an age where the Dragon turned and The Lord of the Morning became a champion of the DO. It's also possible that the stories have merely become so incredibly corrupted that we no longer understand that The Lord of the Morning really was the champion of the light.

Although, given my personal little hope that Ishy is a former "dragon" that turned, this gives me a bit to think about. Thanks, Lost One. :)

(Regarding the world ending and the loss of the last book, I've decided that this is inevitable...
Around CoS coming out, I hooked my dad on the series. Once he was well and truly into it, he asked me "when does it end?"
I said, "Well, RJ says three books. RJ has been saying three more books since TGH."
My father then decided to tell me that either he was going to die before the series ended, in which case he'd haunt me or the author was going to die without finishing it, in which case he'd kill me.
You get where this is going... I've decided that the world will obviously end on the 21st just to make my father's prophecy of not being able to finish the series true. I keep telling him that the book is written and it WILL be in a library in heaven...
Also, thank you Brandon Sanderson for saving my life.)

I have had the same thoughts.. the same feeling of doom.. that the world will end before the final book comes out. I mean it basically IS about the end of the world, and here we have prophecies about the end of the world being eminent.. (I love my relatives, but if I hear about the end times, the apocalypse, rapture, ect one more time, I think I will scream)as well as us effing up the place with global warming..ect).. To a cynical person like me.. it makes sense..lol. Which sucks, because I REALLY want to read this book. On the other hand, I did not consider a library in Heaven

Jalyn
12-15-2012, 11:57 AM
We know Rands soul is the creators champion and that him and Ishy are linked/often spun out together a la Birgitte/Gaidal. When you say Ishy was the creators champion are you suggesting they switch place occasionally?

It's been so long that I don't remember any of the evidence or specifically what the theory was, but no, I believe my thought process was that if the lights champion falls to the DO, he/she stays a fallen champion and someone else is raised as the champion of the light. In other words, Ishy was the champion of the light, figured out that this whole thing just royally sucked and changed sides (probably in a 2nd age.) Someone seals the bore or does whatever they do to lock the DO away for an age and than that person (the dragon soul) is pulled back to be the light's champion in the 3rd age, Ishy finds himself tied in as the DO's champion.

I didn't say that it made a lot of sense, but I rather like it. It allows for change in circular system. It also parallels the fact that Lucifer was the brightest of angels before he fell.

LO, with my dad, the joke ends with "yep, so neither of us will get to read it." Of course, Hell probably has the book, with everything from the last battle on ripped out and unavailable.

boy
12-17-2012, 04:40 AM
Sort of assumed it was a given that the Dragon in this age was Jesus.

GonzoTheGreat
12-17-2012, 05:13 AM
Sort of assumed it was a given that the Dragon in this age was Jesus.
Why not Spartacus, Galileo Galilei, or, for that matter, Justin Bieber?

hippie-joe
01-29-2013, 09:20 AM
the idea that the ability to channel is in any way connected to the soul has been proven false. consider this, ishamael could channel but moridin cannot. same soul, different body.
i don't have the passage handy but i do recall moridin thinking of the irony of not being able to channel anything but the true power after the DO transfered him over.

on another note there is evidence that souls are gender specific, aran'gar for example was still a man yet in a beautiful womans body. the body had the ability but because the soul was male he she used saidin.

GonzoTheGreat
01-29-2013, 10:23 AM
i don't have the passage handy but i do recall moridin thinking of the irony of not being able to channel anything but the true power after the DO transfered him over.
Now that is a prime example of a claim I won't accept unless you (or someone, at least) can actually produce a relevant quote.

hippie-joe
01-29-2013, 03:59 PM
while i may be wrong about this i feel that i remember something very close to what i previously mentioned. through further investigation i can not find it however i did find this.

Little is known about Moridin's abilities with the One Power since witnesses have only observed him using the True Source. We do know that that power comes directly from the Dark One, and that its use has heavy, if unspecified, consequences. He has been observed to have saa in his eyes. These small moving black specks can be seen floating through his eyes, especially when he is actually touching the True Source.

we only ever see him use the true power and never the one power.

GonzoTheGreat
01-30-2013, 03:50 AM
we only ever see him use the true power and never the one power.
But that may be because he was eager to become a Ba'alzamon look-a-like again.

The fact that he didn't use the less addictive saidin does not prove that he couldn't have.

hippie-joe
01-30-2013, 06:43 PM
But that may be because he was eager to become a Ba'alzamon look-a-like again.

The fact that he didn't use the less addictive saidin does not prove that he couldn't have.

yeah i know...

i'm still sure i read it some where how he couldn't