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anenu
06-18-2012, 06:54 PM
After rereading much of this series I have been trying to figure out who among those mentioned in the books are heroes reborn again and again by the wheel. We know from Birgitte that she was alive during the War of Power and as such we can assume Gaiden was as well. We also know that Hawkwing has stated that he has fought alongside Rand and against him many times which means that different heroes are often born to fight against the Dark One during a War of Power alongside the Dragon. So after some consideration here are my ideas for who is and isnít a possible hero of time and who they may have been.

Mat and Perrin - Both of these characters are very likely hereos of time due to their taíveren status and closeness to Rand the real question concerning them is if as taíveren they must always have been born as such or not and in the case of Perrin whether or not his connection to the wolves is always a part of him. As for who they have been in previous lives Mat was likely some if not all of the men he has memories from and has been reborn many times over. Perrin on the other hand may not have been reborn in an incredibly long time as no wolves remember remember men like him except in recent times and in times so far off that it is nothing but even a story among themselves.

Tuon and Faile - while both these are connected to either Mat or Perrin it is not guaranteed that they are the reborn counterpart of either of those and it may be that they simply serve as their wives in this life but have not in others however this is difficult to tell.

Randís Women - Considering the importance of Rand it is likely that all three of his women are reborn heroes and one of them is most likely Ilyena depending on if she could channel or not or if the ability is even guaranteed in each rebirth or not, the other women may have reborn only in other Wars of Power as Lews Therin was not mentioned to have multiple wives.

Olver - This subject has been debated heavily for some time normally thinking that Olver is somehow Gaiden despite the timeline problems. I think however that Olver is probably Jearom reborn, remember that Jearom was considered the best swordsman of all times and his feats are still remembered years after his death and as such he perfectly fits the qualifications for being a hero of time. Despite this he does not get mentioned at Falme at all meaning that if he was a hero of time he would have been reborn. Since Olver is being raised among army men and has already been stated that he is learning various different weapon styles it fits that he would be Jearom.

Nynaeve and Lan - I believe that both of these are reborn heroes who relive the story of a younger powerful woman falling in love with an older warrior a perfect example of who they might have been is is Barashelle and Anselan who are remembered in a story where Barashelle does many deeds to earn Anselanís love however Birgitte reveals a different story in which Barashelle is an accepted about to be raised who bonds a warder before she is raised and is punished for it and when eventually made Aes Sedia is given Anselan as her warder, this story portrays Barashelle acting hotheaded and impulsively against better judgement and despite what she would claim as false a very Nynaeve like way.

Others - Many other minor or not so minor characters may likely also be heroes of time such as Egwene, Moraine and Thom, Siuan and Gareth may or may not be heroes respun by the wheel. Others such as Juilin are confirmed not to be but may through their actions become part of the wheel and earn a place in history.

Side note - Birgitte with her memories of being a hero of time would very likely have an idea on who may be a hero such as herself as she has probably spoken to them many times before between lives, as such this points to either Elayne, Nynaeve or both as being attached to the wheel as she probably recognize or at least had suspicions about one or both of them from their time in the world of dreams together and as such she had a desire to help those who she had shared friendships with in the past.

Jasin Natael
06-18-2012, 06:59 PM
At Falme, the heroes refer to Mat as 'Hornsounder'. They don't treat him the same way as they do Rand, a Hero they're all familiar with.

anenu
06-18-2012, 07:08 PM
At Falme, the heroes refer to Mat as 'Hornsounder'. They don't treat him the same way as they do Rand, a Hero they're all familiar with.

Rand is known to be a hero and they all know who he is/was. Mat is not known to be a reborn hero, yet despite sounding the Horn they address Juilin about possibly becoming a hero for his actions not Mat so it is possible that they knew or had suspicions and did not want to confuse him. Plus Rand is the prime hero spun out for the sole purpose of fighting the Dark One while Mat would just be another hero to them.

Grig
06-19-2012, 10:38 AM
RMat is not known to be a reborn hero, yet despite sounding the Horn they address Juilin about possibly becoming a hero for his actions not Mat so it is possible that they knew or had suspicions and did not want to confuse him.

Hurin, not Juilin. Juilin wasn't introduced in the narrative yet.

Why would they compliment Mat? All he did (that they know of) was blow on a horn. He wasn't doing or saying anything particularly brave like Hurin did. He gave them nothing to react to.

GonzoTheGreat
06-19-2012, 10:59 AM
They might have mentioned him.
But they probably did not do so because of the precepts which Birgitte mentions to Perrin in TSR. Rand is a special case, as he does (should) know who he was in a previous life, so with him the rules are a lot relaxter.

anenu
06-19-2012, 06:52 PM
Hurin, not Juilin. Juilin wasn't introduced in the narrative yet.

Why would they compliment Mat? All he did (that they know of) was blow on a horn. He wasn't doing or saying anything particularly brave like Hurin did. He gave them nothing to react to.

You are correct it was Hurin I had forgotten about him since he disappeared and then Juilin appeared relatively soon after a filled much of the same role. However they still could have addressed the entire party or at least addressed it to Mat, Perrin, and Huron instead of simply specifying Hurin. Plus of course the precepts mentioned against talking to people who don't know they are reborn heroes.

Ieyasu
06-20-2012, 01:36 AM
You are correct it was Hurin I had forgotten about him since he disappeared and then Juilin appeared relatively soon after a filled much of the same role. However they still could have addressed the entire party or at least addressed it to Mat, Perrin, and Huron instead of simply specifying Hurin. Plus of course the precepts mentioned against talking to people who don't know they are reborn heroes.

But they probably did not do so because of the precepts which Birgitte mentions to Perrin in TSR. Rand is a special case, as he does (should) know who he was in a previous life, so with him the rules are a lot relaxter.

The precepts cover them exposing themselves to ppl who are "knowingly" in TAR. From Hawkwing's comments to Rand, I am not so sure that I believe those TAR precepts bind them when they are called by the horn... then again, Birgitte and Gaidal both proved that breaking the precepts while in TAR doesnt really have any seen or known consequences. Birgitte got ripped out by Mog because she got caught helping, not because she broke the precepts. Gaidal, on the other hand, was spun out normally... he broke the precepts as well, but nothing adverse happened to him. Neither seem to have had any consequences what so ever for breaking those precepts, unless you want to think of Moggy as some sort of half-assed Hero Precept Enforcer, personally, I just think thats the reason behind the precepts: Someone might find out you are a hero and fuck up the pattern by taking you out while in TAR. Imagine if Moggy killed her like Slayer kills dream wolfs... no coming back from that. By sending her to the real world, she didnt break her connection to the horn. (min's viewings os her proved that imo) Just because there are rules, doesnt mean there is any agency enforcing them.



I think you are stretching way to far to try and make ppl hero's. Rand himself noted that he knew there wouldnt be many, I do not think anyone is a hero other than Rand and Birgitte. Im on the fence regarding Matt and Perrin, though I lean more towards those 2 being heroes than not. Everyone else? minor characters who do not need to be reborn heroes to explain their actions.

I do not know why you want to make things up about Birgitte possibly knowing The Super Girls in prior incarnations, but she explained her motivations for helping when Gaidal exposed himself as well... because she cannot sit idle while the shadow wages war.

I do not think it is likely that any of Rand's harem are heroes. Given Birgittes snickering about Rand's previous "trouble with women" it is far more likely and believable that they are just that... regular women.

I do not know about Olver, but I would think Lan makes a better Jearom reborn than the kid does. Lan has been the best swordsman we have seen since New Spring imo. Jearom wasnt known as a weapons master, he was known as the greatest swordsman to live, so trying to link Olver to him because hes picking up various weapons training with the band is not even remotely supportive imo. Even Lan as a hero I find stretches plausibility. He is bad ass enough on his own...

I think it goes beyond reason to try to make every single minor and secondary character someone important... people are just people. It makes no sense at all to try to elevate these minor people to Hero status. Percentage wise, heroes represent less than .01% of the soul population at this given time in the world... to have so many spun out at once? Just seems far too fake... trying way too hard... and it makes the Hero condition far too common...

EDIT:
I used to think Ishy was a Hero, but I believe there is a RJ quote somewhere confirming otherwise... though I cant seem to find it right now...

Boli
06-20-2012, 03:14 AM
Interview: Jul, 2002
COT: 'Glimmers' Ebook Q&A (Verbatim)

Question
Does ta’veren-ness ebb and flow as needed? If Rand, Mat, and Perrin were all ta’veren growing up, it seems that the Two Rivers would have had a lot of odd events occurring, but no mention is made of it.

Robert Jordan
You might say that ta’veren-ness ebbs and flows. For one thing, remember that even for someone like Rand, the effects are really occasional, not continuous. Even when he is causing dozens of coincidences in a particular place, many more events pass off quite normally. For another thing, no one is born ta’veren. Rand, Mat, and Perrin only became ta’veren just before Moiraine appeared. You become ta’veren according to the needs of the Wheel. Like the Heroes linked to the Wheel, who are spun out as needed to try to keep the weaving of the Pattern straight, a man or woman becomes ta’veren because the Wheel has “decided” to use them as an influence on the Pattern. And, no, the Wheel isn’t sentient. Think more of a fuzzy logic device that uses feedback to correct what it is doing in order to do it in the most efficient way.

Just because you are ta'veren doesn't mean you are linked to the horn/wheel. Likewise being a HotH doesn't mean you are not a ta'veren. Rand is, and always will be the exception of the ages but I don't believe Mat or Perin is linked to the horn.

Personaly I think that there are a couple more HotH around other than Rand and Birgitte but they are either not involved in a great way yet or their story has already been told. Jain farstrider I've always believed to be a HotH; and like Hawkwing before him the DO went out of his way to corrupt them.

In fact its been my personal theory for a while yet that the last 1,000 years have been 'different' as the DO has tried; and often succeeded to corrupt the HotH and ta'veren who have been spun out to correct itself. Which is why there are three ta'veren (and not just one, which was all that was needed to unite the nations last time) as the pattern is completly off course heading for disaster.

Ieyasu
06-20-2012, 03:31 AM
Personaly I think that there are a couple more HotH around other than Rand and Birgitte but they are either not involved in a great way yet or their story has already been told. Jain farstrider I've always believed to be a HotH; and like Hawkwing before him the DO went out of his way to corrupt them.

In fact its been my personal theory for a while yet that the last 1,000 years have been 'different' as the DO has tried; and often succeeded to corrupt the HotH and ta'veren who have been spun out to correct itself. Which is why there are three ta'veren (and not just one, which was all that was needed to unite the nations last time) as the pattern is completly off course heading for disaster.

Well, there are atleast 3 more out in the world right now, but we dont know who or where they are. Gaidal Cain is a baby/toddler somewhere, and the two twins that show up at the end of every age have to be out there somewhere too, since this is TG and the last battle and all... but I mean of the characters we know the names of, I think only Rand and Birgitte are heroes.

Grig
06-20-2012, 10:20 AM
Well, there are atleast 3 more out in the world right now, but we dont know who or where they are. Gaidal Cain is a baby/toddler somewhere, and the two twins that show up at the end of every age have to be out there somewhere too, since this is TG and the last battle and all...

They weren't spun out as of Falme, so it is not as if they need to be any particular age at the end of the Age. Keep in mind Elayne is carrying twins...I do not know if that qualifies as "out in the world".

Ieyasu
06-20-2012, 01:13 PM
They weren't spun out as of Falme, so it is not as if they need to be any particular age at the end of the Age. Keep in mind Elayne is carrying twins...I do not know if that qualifies as "out in the world".

hehe yeah I know, just saying they are reputed to be there at the end of ages, so I put those 2 as 'out there' since we are at an end of an age...

still trying to find that RJ quote about darkfriend heroes... terez you remember the one im talking about?

frenchie
06-20-2012, 01:31 PM
hehe yeah I know, just saying they are reputed to be there at the end of ages, so I put those 2 as 'out there' since we are at an end of an age...

still trying to find that RJ quote about darkfriend heroes... terez you remember the one im talking about?

Is this the one?

Interview: Oct 5th, 2005
Robert Jordan's Blog: YET ANOTHER, IT SEEMS
Robert Jordan
For kcf, again, we have never met anyone who has the Talent of emulating the effects of a ta'veren over a small area.

I give my input on the design of the chapter icons whenever a new one seems needed, but Harriet actually decides where to place them, and I am happy to leave the job to her.

Yes, Ingtar was seen at the Darkfriend Social.

The Wheel creates ta'veren at need, making someone who is already alive one. You aren't born ta'veren. Can you imagine being around a ta'veren who is teething?

It would be possible for a Darkfriend or Forsaken to be made ta'veren, but it seems unlikely. Ta'veren are part of the Wheel's self-correcting mechanism. When the Pattern seems to be drifting too quickly, and especially if it is in the wrong direction, one or more ta'veren are created. I can't really see how making a Darkfriend or Forsaken ta'veren would help with correcting the drift of the Pattern.

Ta'veren can oppose one another, when their conflict is what the Wheel "sees" as the necessary corrective. And, no, ta'veren is not Old Tongue for Deus ex machina. It came out of musings on luck, charismatic leaders, and the theory of the indispensable man.

Katerine escaped with the help of Darkfriends. Galina, who is much more closely watched by Wise Ones than Katerine was, would have little opportunity to use their help for an escape even if she wanted to, and she doesn't, not until she can get her hands on that rod. She'll put up with anything to get that.

Anyone who can channel, however weakly, can see the glow of saidar and feel someone channel. For sul'dam who have been sul'dam for a time, some begin to be able to see what might be called a ghostly image of the flows. Others convince themselves that this is, of course, only imagination and manage to give themselves a block.

Wow, you have a lot of questions. One more, and then I'm off to the next person.

Someone who sees ta'veren sees them as glowing. The more strongly ta'veren, the brighter the glow. This is a Talent, and is something that only someone who can channel can do. While she was stilled, Siuan could not see ta'veren, nor could she have if she had been burned out.

Ieyasu
06-20-2012, 01:42 PM
Is this the one?


No, it was specifically about Ishy not being a HOTH from what I remember. Or that no HOTH were darkfriends.

I used to argue it years ago until such, as I figured both Lanfear and Ishy were Ta'veren or HOTH. It seemed intuitive to me that in a utopian society like the age of legends, that the pattern would need to correct itself by introducing evil and what not back, that the "right" thing to correct the imbalance in the pattern was to bring back the baddies.

I also thought so of Ishy because of his thoughts about memories in his POV scene with the fisher king, he specifically was griping about memories being lost to time and his right to those memories...

then RJ said none of the HOTH are darkfriends... but i cant find that quote. Though I do think both were Ta'veren back in the AOL.

frenchie
06-20-2012, 01:45 PM
Give me a few minutes to see what I can find.

"edit"

Yeah, I'm not finding it either, but I seem to remember reading it as well.

SauceyBlueConfetti
06-20-2012, 02:52 PM
From a quick search, not sure if this is it as it was MAFOd: Interview: Aug 31st, 2011
Reddit AMA (Verbatim)
Ted Herman ()
Are there any rogue Heroes of the Horn?
Brandon Sanderson
Depends on your definition of rogue.

TED HERMAN
As for definition of rogue, I would say if a Hero was acting intentionally or not to either advance the goals of the Shadow or to interfere with the actions of other Heroes.

Brandon Sanderson
I do not know of any. We can MAFO it, but I'm pretty sure that there are none doing that. They don't all get along, mind you. But I don't believe any of them are Darkfriends.

anenu
06-20-2012, 02:59 PM
snip

I think you are placing to little importance on the events happening in the book. The battle between the Dragon and the Dark One is the primary purpose of the wheel and as such Rand is the primary hero and this is the primary battle so it only makes sense that a large number than average HoTH are being spun out for this battle.

We already know from both Birgitte and Hawkwing that other heroes are spun out to fight alongside the Dragon in these battles but it is not necessarily the same ones or doing the same thing. So since we know that at least two HoTH besides the dragon existed during the war of power, Birgette and Gaiden, and they where both relatively minor heroes as these things go I would assume that it is safe to say that many of those who are connected to Rand are likely also HoTH.

Ieyasu
06-20-2012, 04:07 PM
SauceyBlueConfetti,

The quote I am thinking about was from the late 90s, directly from RJ, It was after PoD and before WH in an interview.

anenu,
I disagree as to the wheel's primary purpose. Nor do I believe the dragon's role is limited to confronting the dark one in each age he is born into. Hawkwing clearly states they have fought against each other more often than with each other, and he is not even spun out at this current time. I do not think he was merely talking about being called when the horn is sounded... point is, there are other ages and confronting the Dark One is not the catalyst for each age. The first age ended when Tamylin learned to channel, ushering in the 2nd age AOL... that age didnt end until the bore got drilled, 3rd age wont end till that bore is sealed... who knows why the 4th 5th 6th or 7th ages end. I am guessing one of those ages is a version of our modern day science>magic age... again back to the point, not every age is marked with a conflict with the shadow. Thus, the wheel has more purpose than spinning the dragon out to fight the shadow.


What is the Wheel of Time? Imagine a great cosmic loom in the shape of a seven-spoked wheel, slowly spinning through eternity, weaving the fabric of the universe. The wheel, put in place by the Creator, is time itself, ever turning and returning. The fabric it weaves is constructed from the threads of lives and events, interlaced into a design, the Great Pattern, which is the whole of existence and reality, past, present, and future.

SamJ
06-20-2012, 04:31 PM
Well, there are atleast 3 more out in the world right now, but we dont know who or where they are. Gaidal Cain is a baby/toddler somewhere, and the two twins that show up at the end of every age have to be out there somewhere too, since this is TG and the last battle and all... but I mean of the characters we know the names of, I think only Rand and Birgitte are heroes.

IIRC it is mentioned in one of the latest books that Grady's baby boy is pretty ugly (I don't have my books near at hand to check at the mo). I thought that was a bit gratuitous and therefore might be a hint about Gaidal Cain's current whereabouts.

On Mat and Perrin, I have always thought they might be heroes of the horn. For Mat, I read him as Aemon reborn, and also having a regular set of characteristics, eg gambler, at the heart of battles etc, attracted and tied to strong women ...

For Perrin, there was something in the Lanfear influenced (?) dream at the start of TGH that made me think he might have previous consistent incarnations as an empire builder - perhaps as per Alexander. I would concede however that this is much fuzzier and that there are other possible interpretations. Would be interested in others thoughts on this episode.

Grig
06-20-2012, 04:42 PM
For Mat, I read him as Aemon reborn

Aemon didn't really do anything that would mark him a Hero. He was known for bravery, sure, but bottom line is just that he was the last monarch of Manetheren and died fighting Trollocs. Nothing he did could really be seen as a "correction" for the Pattern (the closest is dying and getting Eldrene to melt a bunch of stuff, but that would make Eldrene the corrector and not Aemon).

SamJ
06-20-2012, 05:19 PM
Aemon didn't really do anything that would mark him a Hero. He was known for bravery, sure, but bottom line is just that he was the last monarch of Manetheren and died fighting Trollocs. Nothing he did could really be seen as a "correction" for the Pattern (the closest is dying and getting Eldrene to melt a bunch of stuff, but that would make Eldrene the corrector and not Aemon).

I thought the fall of Manetheren was the trigger that turned the tide of the Trolloc Wars. Anyway, he's one of the only other characters where we have good hints he is a specific person reborn with (more importantly for the argument that he could be a Hero) a pattern of attributes/characteristics that are proto-legendary.

Grig
06-20-2012, 05:38 PM
I thought the fall of Manetheren was the trigger that turned the tide of the Trolloc Wars.

Not really. All the fall of Manetheren accomplished was to spawn gleeman's tales, get an Amyrlin in deep trouble, and kill the Trollocs that killed Manetheren (although even then, that was Eldrene and not Aemon that did it -- all he did was fight on against incredible odds until he died, then she won the battle in a suicide attack). The Trolloc Wars didn't end until Ishamael's 40 years ran out and a new Amyrlin started a new offensive to drive back the Shadow. There was plenty of rampaging after Manetheren fell.

Anyway, he's one of the only other characters where we have good hints he is a specific person reborn with (more importantly for the argument that he could be a Hero) a pattern of attributes/characteristics that are proto-legendary.

I'm not disagreeing that there are hints that Mat could be Aemon reborn. I'm just arguing that that's not really evidence that he could be a Hero, since we have no real evidence that Aemon was either. Everyone is a "specific person reborn", we just don't know the specifics. If you're thinking about the Con quote about how Rand was special because he was a specific person reborn, that answer was more that he was special because there were prophecies about said specific person being reborn. Aemon didn't really do anything that could be considered "Pattern stabilizing" that we know of -- he did what we'd expect from any non-Darkfriend born into his position. He was simply a rather brave king that ruled over the land he inherited, had an elite fighting force, and eventually died with his troops.

Weird Harold
06-20-2012, 07:05 PM
IIRC it is mentioned in one of the latest books that Grady's baby boy is pretty ugly (I don't have my books near at hand to check at the mo). I thought that was a bit gratuitous and therefore might be a hint about Gaidal Cain's current whereabouts.

What RJ said about Olver applies to Jr. Grady -- he's too old. We met Jr. Grady before Gaidal Cain was spun out; Gaidal is "a babe in arms" if he's even been born already.

anenu
06-20-2012, 08:20 PM
SauceyBlueConfetti,

The quote I am thinking about was from the late 90s, directly from RJ, It was after PoD and before WH in an interview.

anenu,
I disagree as to the wheel's primary purpose. Nor do I believe the dragon's role is limited to confronting the dark one in each age he is born into. Hawkwing clearly states they have fought against each other more often than with each other, and he is not even spun out at this current time. I do not think he was merely talking about being called when the horn is sounded... point is, there are other ages and confronting the Dark One is not the catalyst for each age. The first age ended when Tamylin learned to channel, ushering in the 2nd age AOL... that age didnt end until the bore got drilled, 3rd age wont end till that bore is sealed... who knows why the 4th 5th 6th or 7th ages end. I am guessing one of those ages is a version of our modern day science>magic age... again back to the point, not every age is marked with a conflict with the shadow. Thus, the wheel has more purpose than spinning the dragon out to fight the shadow.


I'm sorry but the first age was not the discovery of channeling it was the age after the breaking and lasted until the trolloc wars followed by the second age which ended with Hawkwing leading us to the 3rd age.

It has been said somewhere on this site before that the DO always breaks free in the 3rd and 7th age and as such the dragon is always there to meet him. Also your statement that Hawkwing says he has fought against and alongside Rand is only more evidence that different heroes are called out during each battle with the DO and that they do not fulfill the exact same purpose each time so its not the same people reborn each time.

Your claim that the wheel does not revolve around the battles between Rand and the DO also makes no sense as it has been clearly stated that everything since the bore was sealed has been aimed at having Rand born exactly at the right place and time. It caused Lew Therin to make a giant mountain to mark his grave so that Rand could have a place to be born, it had some random tribesmen give water to the Aiel so that they would give a right of passage and a sapling of the tree of life so it could be cut down and even Hawkwing only existed to unite the lands so that he could send an army to conquer Seanchan and they could invade again in Rand's life. Literally everything it has done was to prepare for this battle and we can assume that the next ages will be to prepare for the next reincarnation of the dragon and that the ages before Lews Therin was to prepare for him Rand or the Dragon is the primary and most important HoTH and the idea that the wheel would simply let his main generals and supporters be random stage hands is ridiculousness. Rhuarc and Weiramon are examples of random reborn souls, they are important but they do not play a key role in the battle against the DO and if they died they could be easily replaced.

Personally I am willing to bet that every person who was in the stables after the trolloc attack in the first book is a reborn hero all of them from Moiraine to Thom to Lan to Egwene.

Ieyasu
06-20-2012, 08:39 PM
I'm sorry but the first age was not the discovery of channeling it was the age after the breaking and lasted until the trolloc wars followed by the second age which ended with Hawkwing leading us to the 3rd age.

o.O wat?
lol


It has been said somewhere on this site before that the DO always breaks free in the 3rd and 7th age and as such the dragon is always there to meet him. Also your statement that Hawkwing says he has fought against and alongside Rand is only more evidence that different heroes are called out during each battle with the DO and that they do not fulfill the exact same purpose each time so its not the same people reborn each time.


or its evidence that the dragon is spun out in every age, and some of those ages have absolutely nothing to do with the shadow...


Your claim that the wheel does not revolve around the battles between Rand and the DO also makes no sense bla bla bla....

I am sorry the quote i provided doesnt support your opinion.


Personally I am willing to bet that every person who was in the stables after the trolloc attack in the first book is a reborn hero all of them from Moiraine to Thom to Lan to Egwene.

People think we never landed on the moon and all kinds of batshit crazy things. *shrug*

frenchie
06-20-2012, 09:23 PM
Has Felix created an alt?

anenu
06-20-2012, 10:40 PM
o.O wat?
lol



or its evidence that the dragon is spun out in every age, and some of those ages have absolutely nothing to do with the shadow...



I am sorry the quote i provided doesnt support your opinion.



People think we never landed on the moon and all kinds of batshit crazy things. *shrug*

Judging by your reactions to both my post and others I have seen around here I have decided you are either a troll or haven't actually read the books so I will be from now on ignoring anything you say until it seems you have decided to say things of merit.

Weird Harold
06-20-2012, 11:18 PM
I'm sorry but the first age was not the discovery of channeling it was the age after the breaking and lasted until the trolloc wars followed by the second age which ended with Hawkwing leading us to the 3rd age.

I think you need to get familiar with Terez' signature link and all of the information in the interview and Q&A database. In particular, RJ's assertion that the discovery of Channeling is what marked the beginning of the Second Age (aka the Age Of Legends.)

It has been said somewhere on this site before that the DO always breaks free in the 3rd and 7th age and as such the dragon is always there to meet him.

Nowhere on THIS site that I ever saw. Again, Terez' hard work on the interview database caan be your friend; RJ said the Dragon Soul is reborn in other Ages but not necessarily in the role of 'Dragon.'

Personally I am willing to bet that every person who was in the stables after the trolloc attack in the first book is a reborn hero all of them from Moiraine to Thom to Lan to Egwene.

What little evidence we have suggests that the band of Heroes known as 'tHotH' only numbers around 100 to 125 total. Given the long (15 to 30 years) lead time required for a Hero to be spun out and mature before the "Crisis of Balance' they are spun out to correct occurs, it is unlikely that a high percentage of the 25 to 30 Heroes missing from the roll call at Falme were spun out to deal with T'G. Some will have been spun out to deal with problems during Rand's childhood, some will have been spun out to deal with T'G, and the rest to deal with events after T'G -- The last group would include those like Gaidal Cain and Calian & Shivan who have been spun out since Falme who are newborn infants without any heroic stature yet in this incarnation.

T'G is a big deal -- possibly the biggest Event in an entire Turning -- but I'd guess that no more than 20% of Heroes currently incarnate are of an age to have been spun out to deal with T'G. The other 80% are either remnants of an earlier crisis (like Noal Charin/Jain Farstrider) or far too young to be of use to Rand.

Of the main characters, The Three Amigos, The
Supergirls, and Lan are pretty much the limit of active Heroes.

SamJ
06-21-2012, 12:29 PM
I'm not disagreeing that there are hints that Mat could be Aemon reborn. I'm just arguing that that's not really evidence that he could be a Hero, since we have no real evidence that Aemon was either. Everyone is a "specific person reborn", we just don't know the specifics. If you're thinking about the Con quote about how Rand was special because he was a specific person reborn, that answer was more that he was special because there were prophecies about said specific person being reborn. Aemon didn't really do anything that could be considered "Pattern stabilizing" that we know of -- he did what we'd expect from any non-Darkfriend born into his position. He was simply a rather brave king that ruled over the land he inherited, had an elite fighting force, and eventually died with his troops.

I was thinking more about the pattern who he is. Mat is an archetype, what we know about Aemon suggests he had the same characteristics - the consistency is what suggests to me that he could be a Hero.

I'm also not sure that HOTH always do 'pattern stabilising' in the sense that you seem to imply, for example Birgitte's memories suggest she may not always have done so ( I'm thinking of her adventures in 'Finnland). We do know, however that heroes inspire stories ...

suttree
06-21-2012, 12:49 PM
I thought the fall of Manetheren was the trigger that turned the tide of the Trolloc Wars. Anyway, he's one of the only other characters where we have good hints he is a specific person reborn with (more importantly for the argument that he could be a Hero) a pattern of attributes/characteristics that are proto-legendary.

What turned the tide was the actions of Rashima Kerenmosa.

Davian93
06-21-2012, 01:22 PM
I'm sorry but the first age was not the discovery of channeling it was the age after the breaking and lasted until the trolloc wars followed by the second age which ended with Hawkwing leading us to the 3rd age.


Nobody can be this stupid.....I'm betting its an Alt account or an outright troll.

Terez
06-21-2012, 01:55 PM
I've seen noobs make the assumption before, but it's the whole "I'm sorry but" thing...tsk tsk. You should know what you're talking about if you're going to use that kind of language.

Zombie Sammael
06-21-2012, 04:09 PM
Successful troll is successful.

A search for the term "Second Age" does bring up some interesting (http://theoryland.com/intvsresults.php) results, however...

Ieyasu
06-21-2012, 04:25 PM
Nobody can be this stupid.....I'm betting its an Alt account or an outright troll.

I've seen noobs make the assumption before, but it's the whole "I'm sorry but" thing...tsk tsk. You should know what you're talking about if you're going to use that kind of language.

I understand his confusion, he is mistaking the 3rd age calendar systems for age spokes on the wheel, not understanding that just because there has been 3 major calendar systems in place since the breaking does not constitute a new age. (and several others that never caught on, like hawkwing's) Changing calendars doesnt change the age.... all of the calendar systems since the breaking have all been within the 3rd age. In the modern world we routinely use two calendar systems today, the gregorian and the julian (which is really a reformed roman calendar) Gregorian is more widely accepted, but the Julian tends to be used more in military and scientific purposes.

It also does not seem he has ever read the Big White Book either or any interview quotes.

EDIT:
think of it this way, id say our current age started with the death of christ, hense why we measure time AD and BC, we have changed calendar's multiple times since Zombiejesus came back to life, but it is still the same age, regardless of how we measure and keep track of time.
(others might want to think we have moved into a different age with the advent of modern technology, but does technology make society or does society make technology? either way you see the point im getting at, an age can encompass more than one calendar system)

Davian93
06-21-2012, 05:10 PM
I dont believe the Julian is used for anything other than historical discussions and even then we (It was my field of study) tend to preface a date by noting it as Old Style or Julian when we're talking...this came up more with Russia than most other dates as they didnt switch until their 1917 revolution.

Ieyasu
06-21-2012, 05:33 PM
I dont believe the Julian is used for anything other than historical discussions and even then we (It was my field of study) tend to preface a date by noting it as Old Style or Julian when we're talking...this came up more with Russia than most other dates as they didnt switch until their 1917 revolution.

I used it every day in the military for my entire duration in the 90s, so I am speaking from first hand experience.

I know that it is still used to establish some religious ceremonies (like easter):


The Julian calendar has been replaced by the Gregorian calendar in all countries which formerly used it as the civil calendar. Most Christian denominations have also replaced it with the Gregorian calendar as the basis for their liturgical calendars. However, most branches of the Orthodox Church still use the Julian calendar for calculating the dates of moveable feasts, including Easter (Pascha). Some Orthodox churches have adopted the Revised Julian calendar for the observance of fixed feasts, while other Orthodox churches retain the Julian calendar for all purposes.[1] The Julian calendar is still used by the Berber people of North Africa, and on Mount Athos.

Davian93
06-21-2012, 05:38 PM
I was in the military myself and never once used it...out of curiosity, how/when did you?

Weird Harold
06-21-2012, 06:56 PM
I was in the military myself and never once used it...out of curiosity, how/when did you?

Acft maintenance records are computerized according to a "Julian Date" which is not the same thing as according to the "Julian Calender."

Davian93
06-21-2012, 06:58 PM
Acft maintenance records are computerized according to a "Julian Date" which is not the same thing as according to the "Julian Calender."

I wonder if that's the confusion then...I was army so I had never heard of that.

frenchie
06-21-2012, 07:43 PM
I never used the Julian date in the Marine Corps either.

Ieyasu
06-21-2012, 09:09 PM
I was an electrical engineer for the US Navy, and yes, all maintenance logs, requests for parts, gear, flight records, sat/nav etc were kept by julian date, which I assumed derived from the julian calendar. If they arent the same then i retract the statement, however, I feel the point I was making about an age encompassing multiple calendars remains valid.



EDIT: an Aviation electrical engineer to further support the aircraft comment hehehe... however the green sailors that worked with me also used it (for the devil dog here <3)

It might be limited to just aviation and just the navy/marine corp aviation at that, but it always fucked me up trying to keep track of two dates for the same day

Davian93
06-21-2012, 09:11 PM
I was an electrical engineer for the US Navy, and yes, all maintenance logs were kept by julian date, which I assumed derived from the julian calendar. If they arent the same then i retract the statement, however, I feel the point I was making about an age encompassing multiple calendars remains valid.

EDIT: an Aviation electrical engineer to further support the aircraft comment hehehe...

The overall point remains...we're just being nitpicky.

Weird Harold
06-22-2012, 02:04 AM
I never used the Julian date in the Marine Corps either.

I wonder if that's the confusion then...I was army so I had never heard of that.

I'm pretty sure that both the marines and army use what the Navy and Air Force aviation community call Julian Dates because it is part of the DoD standard requisition tracking number.

It is sometimes called an "Ordinal Date" -- and I think that's closer to accurate than "Julian." It is the four or five digit number built from the last digit or last two digits of the Year and a three digit number for the day of the year (YYDDD date format)

In any case, it has nothing to do with the Julian Calendar as far as I know.

GonzoTheGreat
06-22-2012, 03:00 AM
I'm pretty sure that both the marines and army use what the Navy and Air Force aviation community call Julian Dates because it is part of the DoD standard requisition tracking number.

It is sometimes called an "Ordinal Date" -- and I think that's closer to accurate than "Julian." It is the four or five digit number built from the last digit or last two digits of the Year and a three digit number for the day of the year (YYDDD date format)

In any case, it has nothing to do with the Julian Calendar as far as I know.
To make things clearer: that has nothing to do with the Julian day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_day) either. Or rather, it's a simplified attempt at doing something that may be good enough for limited military purposes.

I have used the Julian day, as that's the standard way of dating in astronomy.

Ieyasu
06-22-2012, 03:59 AM
I'm pretty sure that both the marines and army use what the Navy and Air Force aviation community call Julian Dates because it is part of the DoD standard requisition tracking number.

It is sometimes called an "Ordinal Date" -- and I think that's closer to accurate than "Julian." It is the four or five digit number built from the last digit or last two digits of the Year and a three digit number for the day of the year (YYDDD date format)

In any case, it has nothing to do with the Julian Calendar as far as I know.

No, the Julian date I'm talking about numbered the actual date 1-365, starting from Jan 1 and going thru Dec 31st. As such, it never exceeded 3 digits. Except when we had to include the year...

EDIT:
well shit nevermind, should have finished reading your sentence hahahah my mistake

Weird Harold
06-22-2012, 09:34 AM
...Julian day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_day) ...

Thanks for the link.

From your link:
The term Julian date is also used to refer to:


Julian calendar dates
ordinal dates (day-of-year)


The use of Julian date to refer to the day-of-year (ordinal date) is usually considered to be incorrect although it is widely used that way in the earth sciences, computer programming, military and the food industry.[1]