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GonzoTheGreat
06-20-2012, 03:28 AM
Artur Hawkwing clapped the sniffer on the shoulder. "Sometimes the Wheel adds to our number, friend. Perhaps you will find yourself among us, one day." Hurin sat up as if he had been offered a crown. Hawkwing bowed formally from his saddle to Rand. "With your permission ... Lord Rand. Trumpeter, will you give us music on the Horn? Fitting that the Horn of Valere should sing us into battle. Bannerman, will you advance?"
Now, it is possible that Perrin is the Bannerman, and that that's his actual title as HotH, just Birgitte is the Archer.

But could Mat be the Trumpeter?
If he is, then he can't be a HotH, since if he is to be spun out by it, then who's supposed to blow it?

Yet, if being the one who uses the Horn of Valere is no big deal, then how can Mat (or anyone, really) ever hope to be worthy of being a Hero?

All in all, I'm now thinking that while Rand and Perrin are HotH, Mat isn't, because he can't be.

Ieyasu
06-20-2012, 03:41 AM
Now, it is possible that Perrin is the Bannerman, and that that's his actual title as HotH, just Birgitte is the Archer.

But could Mat be the Trumpeter?
If he is, then he can't be a HotH, since if he is to be spun out by it, then who's supposed to blow it?

Yet, if being the one who uses the Horn of Valere is no big deal, then how can Mat (or anyone, really) ever hope to be worthy of being a Hero?

All in all, I'm now thinking that while Rand and Perrin are HotH, Mat isn't, because he can't be.

I dont know if Mat or Perrin are heroes, though I do tend to lean more towards ARE than ARE NOT...

That said, I do not see how being spun out and sounding the horn somehow disqualifies Mat from being a Hero. He could be the mischief or trickester/gambler as Rand is the dragon, B&C are the lovers, B = the archer, P = the bannerman, etc His role in being bound to the horn doesnt have to be tied into sounding the horn... perhaps last rotation Perrin was a wolf-talking horn-blowing son of a gun... just because Mat blew the Heroes Horn this time around shouldnt auto dq him from hero status... I do not see what one has to do with the other...

GonzoTheGreat
06-20-2012, 05:04 AM
My idea does indeed depend on the assumption that the Horn isn't blown officially all that often, and that when it is done, the one to do it is always the Trumpeter-Trickster: Mat.

If that is the case, then Mat could never be called up by the Horn, because he would be the one doing the calling and he can't do that if he's dead.

Ieyasu
06-20-2012, 05:13 AM
My idea does indeed depend on the assumption that the Horn isn't blown officially all that often, and that when it is done, the one to do it is always the Trumpeter-Trickster: Mat.

If that is the case, then Mat could never be called up by the Horn, because he would be the one doing the calling and he can't do that if he's dead.

ok even going with that assumption, its not a stretch to imagine mat is the sounder every time and never actually comes to the call because hes always out when its sounded... he can still be a HOTH without ever being called by the horn... simply because hes always the one who SOUNDS the horn... tho it stands to reason this cant be so, since people know (on both sides of the ocean) that the sounder is linked until death with the horn... only way they would know that is if someone sounded it and got linked, then lost the horn or allowed someone else to blow it... and presto it doesnt work... till that first guy dies...


then again i suppose one of the blabbermouth heroes that dont care about the precepts very much could have told people...

Grig
06-20-2012, 10:14 AM
But could Mat be the Trumpeter?
If he is, then he can't be a HotH, since if he is to be spun out by it, then who's supposed to blow it?

You're starting from a false premise, I think, although it's understandable since we always refer to them as "Heroes of the Horn". Heroes are used as a corrective mechanism for the Pattern, completely aside from any duties they have of serving when the Horn is blown. It would not detract at all from that duty if Mat's soul always blows the Horn.

And I say that leaning towards Mat and Perrin not being Heroes. I dislike the idea that everyone in the current Age is someone important reborn or a Hero. That makes the eternal struggle just a small reference pool of people responsible for saving the world, with nobody else's actions really mattering at all for all eternity.

GonzoTheGreat
06-20-2012, 10:24 AM
That makes the eternal struggle just a small reference pool of people responsible for saving the world, with nobody else's actions really mattering at all for all eternity.
Only if Ishamael and Lanfear are also Heroes. If not, then you can have a clear and (possibly) big impact if you choose the other side at the right moment. :p

Ishara
06-20-2012, 05:37 PM
Can't souls be pre-destined to be a part of the Pattern without being Heroes?

Just because we know that Perrin and mat are both integral, and prophesized in no way sets them up to be Heroes, in my opinion...

maleshub
06-20-2012, 05:42 PM
Birgitte did call Mat "Hornsounder." That has a nice ring to it, as well as a defined "Job Description."

Grig
06-20-2012, 05:46 PM
Can't souls be pre-destined to be a part of the Pattern without being Heroes?

Sure, all souls are pre-destined part of the Pattern. Even the birds, rocks, and trees. It's what they dom getting weaved into the pattern :).

Just because we know that Perrin and mat are both integral, and prophesized in no way sets them up to be Heroes, in my opinion...

+1. And "prophecy" by no means marks one as a Hero, otherwise Lanfear, Luc, and many others would be (and Brandon would definitely know that there are "subverted" Heros active, instead of giving an "I don't think so but not positive" answer).

Birgitte did call Mat "Hornsounder." That has a nice ring to it, as well as a defined "Job Description."

And yet, they addressed Rand as Lews Therin instead of Dragon. It doesn't really seem like they refer to each other by codenames.

And before anyone brings up precepts again (ugh), those have to do with behavior between lives in Tel'aran'rhiod. And there's no real difference between Rand and Perrin/Mat in that scene. Rand suspects that he's LTT, but he knows nothing about his possible status as a Hero of the Horn any more than Mat and Perrin do.

maleshub
06-20-2012, 06:03 PM
And yet, they addressed Rand as Lews Therin instead of Dragon. It doesn't really seem like they refer to each other by codenames.


Which could very well be an early manifestation of Min's viewing of two men merging. Rand later told Min that he's always been Lews Therin and that Lews Therin has always been him. Could it be that Hawkwing and the heroes recognized his spirit?

Or is it that the Horn is linked to the Dragon and is always found and sounded only when the Dragon is alive?

anenu
06-20-2012, 08:41 PM
And before anyone brings up precepts again (ugh), those have to do with behavior between lives in Tel'aran'rhiod. And there's no real difference between Rand and Perrin/Mat in that scene. Rand suspects that he's LTT, but he knows nothing about his possible status as a Hero of the Horn any more than Mat and Perrin do.

Except that Rand is the Dragon Reborn while other HoTH are not specified as being particular people reborn they are simply reborn to fulfill part of the pattern to to tell a story. So Birgitte for instance is not simply her last incarnation reborn she is only one person each life and it isn't until she dies that she becomes all the people she has been. Rand however is both himself and LTT so addressing Rand as who he is besides himself is a great difference from addressing Mat or Perrin by their previous lives because they aren't those people and will not be again until they die.

GonzoTheGreat
06-21-2012, 03:00 AM
Birgitte did call Mat "Hornsounder." That has a nice ring to it, as well as a defined "Job Description."
Then again, maybe Birgitte is a Myrddraal:
The Fade's black sword blurred as it knocked the dagger away, almost casually; it did not even break stride. "Time to die, Hornsounder." Its voice was a red adder's dry hiss, warning of death.

Heinz
06-21-2012, 08:50 AM
Now, it is possible that Perrin is the Bannerman, and that that's his actual title as HotH, just Birgitte is the Archer.

But could Mat be the Trumpeter?


Is it too simple that Hawkwing was simply calling them by a title fitting the duties they (Mat and Perrin) were performing in this moment, and not for all eternity? I have always assumed this was the case, and there has been little to nothing in the rest of the series to suggest otherwise.

The exception is the references to Mat as 'Hornsounder', though I took this to reference his actions at the end of tGH, not a title of his theoretically destined role.

Though I lean toward Perrin and Mat not being Heroes, partly from this very scene where they were not recognized as Rand was.

GonzoTheGreat
06-21-2012, 09:08 AM
Is it too simple that Hawkwing was simply calling them by a title fitting the duties they (Mat and Perrin) were performing in this moment, and not for all eternity? I have always assumed this was the case, and there has been little to nothing in the rest of the series to suggest otherwise.

The exception is the references to Mat as 'Hornsounder', though I took this to reference his actions at the end of tGH, not a title of his theoretically destined role.
Well, Perrin's role as Steward of the Dragon is yet another example of him being the Dragon's Bannerman. That is a fairly new development, but it fits this old pattern well.

A lot weaker is the fact that Mat has been teaching new (old) songs, which fits his role of musician. But, to make it a bit stronger again, there's this bit of prophecy to consider:
“I’m glad he didn’t name you the Wolf King, my Lord,” the Banner-General drawled. The way she slurred her words, Perrin had to listen hard to make out what she was saying. “Otherwise, I’d think Tarmon Gai’don was on us. You know the Prophecies of the Dragon? ‘When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known. When the fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown.’ I never understood that second line, myself. And you. my Lady. Sur Paendrag. That would mean from Paendrag?”
Once again trumpets associated with Mat, you'll notice.

Though I lean toward Perrin and Mat not being Heroes, partly from this very scene where they were not recognized as Rand was.
The trouble with that approach is that Rand is a rather huge exception, so extrapolating based on his case seems rather iffy. Rand is not only a Hero reborn, he actually appears there knowing that he is that Hero reborn. Having the other Heroes confirm that does not give any new information; it does not tell anyone things they're not supposed to know.
Hurin is told in the same scene that's he's not a Hero (yet), which puts him in the same boat as billions of other people, so this is not a great reveal either.

The silence on this score about Mat and Perrin is suggestive, but no more than that.

Heinz
06-21-2012, 11:40 AM
But, to make it a bit stronger again, there's this bit of prophecy to consider:

Once again trumpets associated with Mat, you'll notice.


Except this quote still references a prophecy regarding this age and its events, not an implication that Mat does this sort of thing all the time through the ages. Mat will sound the Horn at TG, something we've known for quite some time. I don't see that there's anything else here.


The trouble with that approach is that Rand is a rather huge exception...The silence on this score about Mat and Perrin is suggestive, but no more than that.

I'll agree that the silence regarding Mat and Perrin is suggestive. My thought is that we have had no further evidence of what it really suggests.

Mat is called a Hornsounder a couple of times, and a trumpeter in Seanchan prophecy (I had forgotten that quote, actually, as I usually skip Perrin's stuff except for clearing the Two Rivers on rereads now. I might have to suffer through one last round of a reread.), but not in such a way that I, personally, think you can say 'yes, that is a reference to his soul, not just Matrim Cauthon of the current Third Age'. All references are to Mat specifically, or to a prophecy regarding this age. None are referring to a Hero archtype like 'The Archer'.

maleshub
06-21-2012, 09:07 PM
Then again, maybe Birgitte is a Myrddraal:

Thanks for that reference. It just goes to show how "universal" his job description is :p

Landro
06-22-2012, 07:14 AM
Go trickster! Go Gambler! Go son of Battles!

That's how the Finn called Mat. Those are much likelier candidates for Mat's role.

Abbaaddon
07-03-2012, 04:29 AM
is there any evidence of the previous Hornblowers (it has a nasty sound, I must admit) being integrated to the Heores of the Horn ? And does they always have to go by pairs (one bannerman and one trumpetter) or is it due to Perrin and Mat's nature of Ta'veren ?

Slightly off-topic but i would see Olver, Hurin and maybe Talmanes (I cannot resign myself to the fact that he might be a Darkfriend or under Demandred's compulsion) being Heroes in another turn of the Wheel. Even if Olver's role is yet to be discovered

GonzoTheGreat
07-03-2012, 05:43 AM
is there any evidence of the previous Hornblowers (it has a nasty sound, I must admit) being integrated to the Heores of the Horn ?
Not that we know of. In the AOL, the Horn wasn't used at all, and all they had were vague myths about it. That ignorance was then further improved by the destruction of all libraries and other centers of learning.

And does they always have to go by pairs (one bannerman and one trumpetter) or is it due to Perrin and Mat's nature of Ta'veren ?
No idea at all. Which, I'll admit, does not particularly help solidify my speculation on this.

Weird Harold
07-03-2012, 06:01 AM
is there any evidence of the previous Hornblowers (it has a nasty sound, I must admit) being integrated to the Heores of the Horn ? ...

I don't think there is anything within the WOT canon to suggest a link between sounding the Horn and a Hero's soul. There is however strong suggestion in the Norse and other mythologies that the horn to summon heroes from Valhalla (or equivalent) will be blown by either a Hero or a God -- a God which is probably indistinguishable from a Hero of the Horn from half a Turning's distance.

RJ borrowed heavily from Norse Mythology in forming the character traits of the Three Amigos. Mat has bits of Odin, Loki, and Baldur(?) in his makeup, as well as bit and pieces from other mythologies as well -- eg Coyote. Rand, Perrin and Mat all have bits of Thor in their makeup. Etc, etc, etc.

I don't recall all of the sources that have been tracked down, but most of the associated mythologies include some corespondent to Valhalla, Elysian Fields, or "Heroes of the Horn Of Valere"

SauceyBlueConfetti
07-03-2012, 12:41 PM
New Spring sheds light on the ties Mat and Perrin have to everything. There likely is a Dark Prophecy regarding a "lucky" man or a "gambler" along with a "blacksmith".

The Black Ajah in NS were killing all ages of male children and men who came even close to the description of being lucky, being a blacksmith or those who could potentially channel. They knew something, something not shared with us the reader. THEY believed the descriptions they were given were for the Dragon Reborn, we on the other hand could already deduce they were three separate men.

Mat being a Hornsounder does not equate to automatic = Hero status. It doesn't add up. His overall big picture DOES. Hornsounder + ta'veren + luck + Finn memories says to me he was or will be a Hero. I am not convinced he is a reborn Hero now, but he will meet the rollcall next time.

Mat's importance it tied to both Rand and Perrin, end of story. His individual actions, while crucial, are not because he is a reborn Hero.


It is slowly dawning on everyone the importance of the three together. The Forsaken seem to have figured it out way back during the DF ball, but even Min hasn't pieced it together in TGS when it is being slapped in her face:

The Gathering Storm - Ch 48 Reading the Commentary

He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one.

That small bit is the key to everything.

Grig
07-03-2012, 01:28 PM
New Spring sheds light on the ties Mat and Perrin have to everything. There likely is a Dark Prophecy regarding a "lucky" man or a "gambler" along with a "blacksmith".

Potential Problem: Was Ishamael free when the orders from NS were given? I got the impression that he was free after the fact and then found out, after which he trapped Jarna Malari in the ter'angreal as punishment. Ishamael is the one with access to the Big Book of Dark Prophecy, and he doesn't seem to allow many people to see it.

The Black Ajah in NS were killing all ages of male children and men who came even close to the description of being lucky, being a blacksmith or those who could potentially channel.

The problem here is "being lucky" was being used as the criterion for "could potentially channel". And while it was notable that one blacksmith was killed, the half-page description sure makes him sound very lucky (and possibly ta'veren/a channeler, to the BA).

Definitely an interesting theory.

SauceyBlueConfetti
07-04-2012, 12:52 PM
Potential Problem: Was Ishamael free when the orders from NS were given? I got the impression that he was free after the fact and then found out, after which he trapped Jarna Malari in the ter'angreal as punishment. Ishamael is the one with access to the Big Book of Dark Prophecy, and he doesn't seem to allow many people to see it
.

Two things...

Jana was punished but was it for hunting the dragon, killing potential dragons or killing the Amyrlin? or just acting without permission? We don't know, that I am aware of anyway.

Dark prophecies are collections of foretellings and dreamer interpretations. Foretellings during Ishy's crunch times within the Bore may or may not be in his possession.

There is a great quote somewhere about Rand's true role is to face the DO's champion THEN the DO. Ishy may just have been pissed that his turn to face the dragon was being fracked up by an upstart while he was crunchy crunched by the wheel in the Bore fringe when in fact he likely recognized the three descriptions...lucky, swordmaster and blacksmith...were separate entities.

Lost One
12-15-2012, 03:15 PM
This is a problem of a series with so many symbolic elements. We tend to look for meanings in every little detail. While many things do have various meanings, ties, and implications, sometimes a rock IS just a rock.

AH addressed Rand as LTT and the Dragon, because as someone here said, he recognized the Dragon soul/spirit. He, AH had most likely been a general during the War of the Power during the AoL, as well as being tied to the Horn.

And I am sorry to burst this bubble, but of course AH is going to address Perrin as Bannerman. He was the only one holding a banner. While Bannerman is a position, it is not tied to a person. While the HotH are tied to the horn, they are also tied to the Banner.

"Something is wrong here. Something holds me." Suddenly he turned his sharp gaze on Rand. "You are here. Have you the Banner." A murmer ran through those behind him.

"Yes" Rand tore open the straps on his saddlebags and pulled out the Dragon's Banner. It filled his hands and almost hung down to his stallions knees. The murmer among the heroes rose.

"The Pattern weaves itself around out necks like halters, Artur Hawkwing said. "You are here. The banner is here. The weave of the moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon" TGH, 559-560.

Perrin then goes and cuts a sapling. Why Him.. For one, he has an axe, and two, he has always been the most responsible.

"Give it to me, Rand," he said gravely. If they need it.. give it to me"

Being addressed as bannerman was his position of the moment. Anyone may be the bannerman. Perrin cannot be the bannerman in the LB. For him to be so, would make evrything else tied to him, wolves, his new hammer, his new leadersip position meaningless.

The same with the trumpteer... almost. While anyone can blow the Horn, it would take someone with hero qualities to aquire it. At this time, Mat is the hornsounder. Why? Outside of the story, it was something that his character needed for character development and significance. Similar to what another person wrote in a Theory concerning stroy props, ie Chekov's Gun. The Horn was a major plot line.. It had to be used/blown. It also could only be one of the main/primary characters, or else the story would center on someone else. Inside the story, Mat had possession of the Horn at the time. It was on his saddle. He is also the risk taker. This is why HE blew it. However, being addressed as Trumpeteer.. Like Perrin was the only one with a Banner, Mat was the only one with the horn. It was a common for troops to ride into battle with uplifting music. Horns, trumpets, and bugles are best because of distinctive sounds that troops can hear over the sound of combat, and this means they can also be used for signalling.

As far as mat being addressed as HornSounder by B and the Fade, the only significance is, (1) the Fade was not there to kill Mat, he was there to kill the Taveren who had sounded the HoV. Birgette, on the other hand, addressed him as Hornsounder, to show that while he knew her secrets, she knew his as well. Her character needed something to be able to keep him quiet. Mat is not tied to the horn except in this life.

However, what is interesting is that while several say that anyone can blow the HoV, hero or villian, AH says specifically taht the HotH follow the Banner, and the Dragon (see above quote). The Horn calls them, but they followed the Dragon, not the hornsounder. This, it seems to me, would contradict Suian when she says,

"They want the Horn. You must know that. It will work as well for the Shadow as for the Light. But if it is to work for them, the must take you, or kill you. Do you want to risk that?" TDR, Visitations/Chapt 20, pg 183. It would only work for the Shadow if the Dragon fought for the Shadow. Suian thinks she is speaking truth, but in this case, I think a HotH knows more than someone who only knows legends. AH, even though he responded to the call, cannot act without the Dragon and the Banner. IF this is taken verbatum, anyone who blows the horn (if no one is tied to it, such as Mat) can Summon the HotH, but could not actually make them do anything. The Dragon and the Banner MUST be present.. or else it is a big flaw in TGH.

Dom
12-15-2012, 05:20 PM
Suian thinks she is speaking truth, but in this case, I think a HotH knows more than someone who only knows legends.

Especially when RJ flat out said that part is just a legend, that legends have corrupted the facts over time.

Siuan and Moiraine had it wrong. We don't know where the AS have it from - is it disinformation spread long ago among them by Ishamael via the BA? Maybe. Is it a remnant from incorrect AOL information about the Horn. Possibly, we know the AOLers themselves didn't believe the legends when they had the Horn in a museum, lost it in the WOS and it's importance became known to them only through foretelling late in the WOS. We can deduce the phrase "The Grave is no bar to my call" was part of the foretelling and it's why it's been etched on the Horn (which Maria has revealed was done in the AOL - most likely by Deirdre's group right before they hid the Horn and Banner in the EotW. It sounds likely the foretelling also included a reference to the Banner. It could be on purpose that Deirdre's group leaked the "Grave is not bar" bit, but kept secret what tied the Horn to the Dragon Banner, perhaps in fear if it was known, anyone who found the Banner could get the Heroes to follow him).

It's not common knowledge outside WT circles that the Horn could serve the Shadow, even for someone who must know pretty much all there is to know about the Horn stories/legends (I mean Thom, he was stunned when Rand passed to him the disinformation he got from Moiraine, who thought it was the truth. Of course, no one thought to report to Moiraine what happened with Hawkwing and the banner, who in turn kept to herself she knew Mat was now tied to the Horn).

I don't think the Bannerman/Hornsounder episodes are indications Mat and Perrin are HotH.

Personally I think they are. Perrin is a kind of Shaman-Warrior-Leader rolled into one. He is a blacksmith, but specifically that kind of blacksmith, a smith who magically forges bonds between people and nature. He embodies a lot of primitive concepts of the sacred, including his ability to walk the Spirit World and talk/bind the animals. In various myths, that archetype shows up in various guises, from a smith-god to a powerful God, to a leader/father of the Gods (eg: the Dagda), to war leaders/heroes with shamanic/druidic powers (eg: Cuchulain).

And Mat is a trickster-war god. My guess is that Mat is spun out mostly when the Wheel needs to spread chaos to be able to re arrange the Pattern at a macro level. He seems to be a counterpart to Hawkwing. Two candidates for previous incarnations of Mat in the third Age would be Aemon and Guaire Amalasan.

It's not only Mat and Perrin. Nynaeve, Egwene, Moiraine, Thom Merrilin also have extremely strong archetypal qualities. Nynaeve has "Healing Goddess"/Shaman written all over her, while Egwene is the Moon Goddess Lanfear pretends to be (she even has the maiden-warrior/queen/crone aspects rolled in one person. Lanfear needs disguises to achieve the same, and her wise/crone aspects are totally faked...she's anything but Wise, she could teach Mat lessons in how never to grow out of adolescence.).

We may never learn the full truth, unless we can deduce part of it from the fact one of those character beside Rand dies in AMOL. That character, eg: Nynaeve or Perrin, returning with the Horn, would be a strong clue they all are Heroes.

As for the Bannerman/Hornsounder thing, it's good to keep in mind the Horn doesn't originate from the dawn of times as some magical object given to humans by the Creator. It's confirmed it's a device created by mortals in a specific Age in a specific turning of the Wheel. Its makers seemed to have taken precautions to ensure only the Dragon-soul could use it.

And of course, once it's in the Pattern, the Wheel uses it, like it uses everything.

There's no strong reason to believe there's a Bannerman hero and a Hornsounder Hero, unless the makers of the Horn of Valere went one step further in restricting its use to a very specific purpose and Age and they not only keyed the Horn to the Dragon and banner, but also to two more Heroes who are spun out when Rand's soul have its Dragon/LB incarnations (because we know in other Ages without the DO, that Hero has different jobs as a corrective mechanism.. given the real nature of the soul and how much it relies on the strength of his spirit and faith in Creation/the Creator, something more spiritual or even religious in nature, I wouldn't be surprised). Those two heroes might have de facto played the roles of the Dragon's bannerman (a symbol around which to rally - this fits Perrin like a glove) and Hornsounder (a symbol for the call to battle/leadership in battle, fitting Mat like a glove) a few times over the Turnings since the Horn was introduced.

Lost One
12-15-2012, 11:08 PM
Dom.. You are awesome. I know next to nothing of interviews so when I find stuff likke that here, it is great.

Terez
12-16-2012, 06:00 AM
I'm not so sure Dom represented RJ's answer correctly:

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=86#4

He at first gives the answer that she is only speaking the truth as she knows it, but then goes on to say that she is correct. He's just reminding us for the sake of it that things Aes Sedai think they know are not always true.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=204#6

Lost One
12-16-2012, 01:10 PM
I compared what Suian said to Mat relating to the Horn summoning the HotH to fight for the shadow, to what Hawkwing told Rand at Falme. The Only way that the HotH would fight for the Shadow was if the Dragon had turned and was also fighting for the Shadow. Hawkwing almost explicity says, that to fight, the Banner must be present, as well as the Dragon (see my post above for quote).

I had another epiphany this morning. Since No one has ever blown the Horn before, except in the previous third ages, no one really knows who the heroes attached to the Horn are/which ones. They know it is supposed to call Heroes back. But only those tied to it know who they are. While there are the stories about the great heroes and those who might be an incarnation of them, Birgitte/Merion/Jethari MoonDancer;no one knows if these heroes are tied to the Horn until horn is sounded.. with the exception of those who were at Falme

Terez
12-16-2012, 01:44 PM
Did you read the whole quote? RJ never said the banner was necessary for the Heroes to fight, and neither did Hawkwing.

Lost One
12-16-2012, 02:37 PM
TGH, chapter 47, Page 559
Hawkwing speaking. "Something is wrong here. Something holds me." Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. You are here. Have you the banner?" A murmer ran through those behind him.
page 560

"The pattern weaves itselve around our necks like halters," Artur Hawkwing said. "You are here. The weave of the moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

It does not get any clearer than that. When summoned by the Horn, for the HotH to fight, the Dragon and the banner must be present. This is most likely why the banner was hidden with the Horn. And then they will fight whoever the Dragon tells them to. So this is saying that the HotH only fight FOR the Shadow if the Dragon does also.

By implication, the Dragon cannot be a HotH as he must be in the flesh for the HotH to follow. Otherwise, if the Dragon was tied to the Horn like the others, if it was found and blown (it would be a stretch for the Pattern/Wheel to allow this) then whoever sounded it would control the Dragon.. Hmm. Maybe that is how the could fight for the Shadow.. But the Banner would still have to be present

Terez
12-16-2012, 02:46 PM
I know what he said. He said that, since Rand was there, he thought it fitting to have the banner. Nothing to say what he would have done if Rand hadn't been there. So yes, it could get a lot clearer than that.

Lost One
12-16-2012, 03:33 PM
Stepping out of the story for a moment, I think that we agree that sometimes different words can be used in place of another because they have the same or very similar meanings. Also I think that we can agree that context can change the meaning of a word. A perfect example of that is Rand being described as a blind man. While he could see fine, it was his outlook and judgement that "blinded" him to other important aspects.

This being said, there are other words which cannot change. In this circumstance, it is the word MUST. The line reads, "We must follow the banner. And the Dragon." The word must having any ambiguity is like cuendellar crumbling. Right now, I can only think of two words that can replace must, but neither carries as near a strong imperative: Shall and Should, with Shall being stronger. "Thall Shall not kill." There are few synonyms, should, obligation, necessity, requirement. All of these are very black and white. It is not "I guess so", or "in this case", It is a command. Must leaves no room for doubt, no wriggle.

Also, especially since Falme was NOT the LB, why should the Dragon and the Banner matter? They were not fighting the DO.. no one knew Ishmael was going to show up. Though evidently Falme was tied to Prophecy; when the horn blew, and they attacked, it was only to drive back the Seanchan and rescue Egwene. If under this circumstance, a seemingly unimportant battle for them, why make were a big deal about the banner and the Dragon. They would not follow Mat. They come to the call of the Horn, but that is all. Once here, regardless of the circumstance they MUST follow the banner and the Dragon. I find it hard to believe an accomplished writer would use this word when it was not what he really meant

Terez
12-16-2012, 03:39 PM
The line is intended to tell the reader that, since Rand is present, they must follow him. Beyond that, it doesn't appear to mean anything.

PS—Meant to add, the fact that the banner was an afterthought is a big clue that they can fight without it. Hawkwing is just like, oh, Lews Therin is here. We should have the banner, shouldn't we? That's why Hawkwing took his instructions from Rand and barely paid any attention to Mat. When Rand is there, he's the boss.

Dom
12-16-2012, 06:53 PM
I'm not so sure Dom represented RJ's answer correctly:

Isn't it Moiraine he said was wrong?

I spoke of Siuan, but it's because Siuan essentially repeated the same thing, and so did Verin for that matter. It seems to be "WT knowledge".

And I meant about the Horn working without LTT present.

Terez
12-16-2012, 07:25 PM
Is there a quote I am missing?

Dom
12-16-2012, 07:35 PM
Is there a quote I am missing?

I'll have to check. I don't really have quotes you don't have (I once did - a few old Wotmania things from reports that weren't catalogued, but I lost that list in a crash) I may rather remember a quote wrong.

Edit: yeah, it was that. What I remembered was the POD era extremely confusing quote which seems to say one thing and then its opposite. It's pretty much good for the trashcan that one.


PS—Meant to add, the fact that the banner was an afterthought is a big clue that they can fight without it. Hawkwing is just like, oh, Lews Therin is here. We should have the banner, shouldn't we? That's why Hawkwing took his instructions from Rand and barely paid any attention to Mat. When Rand is there, he's the boss.

I'm not sure about your "afterthought" interpretation Terez.

I think it was more a matter of Hawkwing assuming the Banner was there, only to realize he was held back because it wasn't in display.

He says:

""Something is wrong here. Something holds me." Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. "You are here. Have you the banner?" A murmur ran through those behind him."

The "something is wrong here", the murmur among the Heroes. I don't think the banner is optional. No more than the Dragon's presence. Something held the Heroes back, and after the Banner was displayed, they were held back no longer.

From RJ's "confusing" quote that whoever sounds the Horn is in control, the only explanation is that it's Mat who was holding back Hawkwing because of the Banner. It would be a reasonable explanation if it was plausible Mat thought of that, but it's not plausible.

Mind you, an answer from Maria to Luckers, where she said she thought since it was at the EOTW the Banner was very necessary but had no idea how or why suggests very much those matters are totally irrelevant/not to resurface/we'll never know the final word on this (all the more when we know Maria is fairly fond of the Heroes. A RAFO was more in order, if she knew something.).

That the Dragon is one of the Heroes of the Horn doesn't seem to be known.

Moiraine, Siuan, the girls etc. The connection isn't brought up. It's especially odd from Nynaeve and Elayne who know more than anyone else.

It makes me think not much attention is paid to the legends that the Heroes are reborn as the same archetype over and over.

They don't seem aware of the concept that the Heroes are a corrective mechanism either. If they were, the Aes Sedai would pay much more attention to the incarnations of the Heroes, and to Birgitte's apparition.

The characters don't go speculating Birgitte was this and that other woman before. Most of that is forgotten, some of the few remaining tales rather get attributed to the woman Birgitte who lived at the time of Arthur Hawkwing. They have no idea some of those tales aren't 1000 years old, buy 1600 or 2500. Others surviving tales have the right incarnation, but aren't associated with Birgitte.

But then, they are aware of the "theory" as Mat mentions awareness that Shivan and Callian are born at the end of Ages etc.

It's hard to figure out how much they believe real, how much they believe is legend in all of this. It's extremely curious no Aes Sedai has even wondered if the connection between the Horn and the Dragon may simply be that he's one of the Heroes.

They don't really connect very strong ta'veren and Heroes either. Given Rand and Hawkwing, they should. It's as if they aren't aware at all Hawkwing was one of the Heroes of the Horn, or the Dragon.

It's not matters RJ handled very clearly, let's say. The girls take all of it in stride, as if they knew all along it's all true - and it suggests it's widely known heroes are reborn over and over in archetypal roles, but the scholars of the story pay no attention to those matters. It's all very bizarre.

We could have very long and not very productive debates about these matters, the information is fairly confusing.