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View Full Version : Moiraine's 'death' was just another ploy in the Game


Terez
06-20-2012, 04:39 AM
At least, I suspect that's how the Cairhienin will see it when Elayne tells them that Moiraine is going to be their queen after all. The subject came up in my reread thread so I decided to divert it here so I can get back to posting random thoughts about my reread.

A few points, for the uninitiated:

1. Elayne has not yet been officially crowned. I don't believe this is an accident. She claimed the throne by her own right, but she would never have done it if Rand hadn't needed her to do it, and she is an Andoran at heart.

2. Thom has already been made Court-Bard for both courts by Elayne, with some freedom, so clearly he has no desire to up and disappear after the Last Battle. He is like Luca in that.

3. Siuan was the one with the desire to travel around the world, much more than Moiraine, which is why Moiraine thought it was ironic that she was the one who went on the 'adventure' while Siuan was stuck in the Tower. Aside from that, state visits just got a lot easier with Traveling, and Thom made plenty of state visits when he was Court Bard for Morgase despite the need of long journeys to get anywhere.

4. Moiraine thought that Siuan would make a good Amyrlin, and Siuan thought that Moiraine would make a good queen. She even tried to talk Moiraine out of running away from the throne, and anticipated some of her arguments. I believe both of their comments on the subject in New Spring were foreshadowing.

5. Moiraine's original reasons for not wanting the throne are all null and void now. She had to find Rand because it was the most important thing in the world; she's a Blue, and she has her priorities straight. After the Last Battle is won, being a strong ruler in Cairhien might be the most important thing she can contribute to the world, which is not to say that she will not make other contributions. Elayne will too, I'm sure, as Queen of Andor.

6. One of the reasons Moiraine didn't want to be queen in New Spring was that she feared she would have to become like her grandmother Carewin to have a chance of keeping Cairhien in line. I don't think Moiraine anticipated how far she would go on that front simply by being Rand's advisor. She was scared when she was younger that she would have to 'stoop' to kidnapping and assassination, and neither she nor Thom are strangers to that, as we saw in Tear. But I think that neither would have to stoop any farther than they already have to rule by force of will, as Carewin Damodred did. Moiraine is a legend in Cairhien because of what happened on the docks, and you can be sure that word would spread, somehow, of Galldrian. And aside from those two things to bolster their reputations, I'm sure they could juggle the Cairhienin nobles with very little effort; I doubt there are two more skilled in the Game than those two.

So that's why I figure it will be presented as a ploy in the Game, when Moiraine finally takes the throne. She took out Lanfear in Cairhien in full sight of a ton of people, and that's just one detail of many that makes Moiraine on the Sun Throne too good to pass up. One might see it as Moiraine having run from a fate in New Spring that would eventually catch her up, though it's obvious that what she did do was more important to the Pattern at the time. One might also see it as Rand avoiding the obvious choice when he took Cairhien in the first place; now it's been several books and Elayne still hasn't officially taken the Sun Throne. But I think the Cairhienin will be less surprised than many readers when Moiraine shows up to take it instead. They like their Daes Dae'mar as complicated as possible; that's what makes their lives interesting.

Ieyasu
06-20-2012, 04:59 AM
from the other thread:

No, he's still a Court Bard. He's Elayne's, in both Caemlyn and Cairhien.

oh yeah, forgot that... I was thinking when he told Moiraine he is just a regular gleeman now, despite his past...however you are mistaken. She only made him court bard of Caemlyn. She gave him a pardon for both countries for any crimes past and present... tho i think his comment about Elayne's pardon (wonder who told her...) was off-based. I dont think anyone really knows what happened to Galledrile except Thom, as shortly after (and as a result of) that assassination the country erupted into civil war until Rand pacified them. I think she gave him a pardon in Andor and then added Cairhein into it as well because she wanted to be queen there too. She was establishing a precedent. To establish her interest and get people used to her issuing laws and proclamations for Cairhein as well


I don't see why you believe he has an urge to travel that isn't rooted in his attempt to stay ahead of the warrants for his arrest. I can provide evidence that he has no problem staying in one place, for many years in Caemlyn, and again in Tear when Moiraine had to root him out bodily. In fact, Moiraine thinks it's funny (and arrogance) that he kept his own name when he was so well-known in Caemlyn. Furthermore, a Court-Bard gets to travel with his Queen, and even did in the days before Traveling when it required weeks or months of riding on a horse to get anywhere.

Because he didnt stay in Caemlyn the first time, he didnt stay in Cairhien either, nor did he stay in Tear (nor would he have stayed, Moiraine was chasing him away from RAND, not TEAR, because he had too much influence with him) The only place he left with warrants was Andor. He would have left Tear with Rand had Moiraine not chased him off. After Cairhein, he went to Tar Valon, remember his stories to Mat? He was rich and young and traveling about with a carriage and found some married woman who wanted... bla bla bla... he was traveling before he was a bard (the first time) he traveled WHILE he was a bard, and he has been traveling every SINCE he was a bard... can you please tell me why a brief stay in Caemlyn somehow negates all this and means he wants to settle down?

Nothing in his history suggests he has ever stayed anywhere for long. I find it hard to believe he will settle down now because hes already an older man and hasnt settled down yet.



Moiraine was never the one with an urge for traveling; that was Siuan.

And yet Moiraine was the one who spent 20+ years traveling from place to place while Siuan stayed in teh tower for the majority of those years... funny how urges arent indicative of much... I mean every AS feels the urge to channel constantly, we really see it effecting Elayne in the middle books... that doesnt mean they act on each and every urge they have. Pointing out that who had what urge is not very supportive of much when the reality was exactly opposite those urges...


Why wouldn't she settle down? Her quest was important, and she fulfilled it, but ruling a great nation is important too, if for no other reason than to keep it from becoming a province of Andor. And there are plenty of clues along the way that, no matter how ashamed she is of her House and its black name, she does care about Cairhien. In fact, her shame shows that she cares.

Because she is an AS, and a Blue one at that. She won't settle down because I dont think shes going to live, but even if she does, she's going to keep on being AS, Cadsuane style (multiple retirements and continued adventures) ...biggest evidence in your favor imo was her willingness to give up her angreal for Thom... showing that the power (and i think possibly representing her feelings about the white tower) isnt the same priority to her as it once was... but barring her death, I think she will remain working on crusades and causes for the blues and keep on moving about.


To quote you..."Obvious troll is obvious." ;)


trolling you because I do not see the same things in Moiraine that you see? sorry kiddo, but disagreeing with several reasons (which i listed) is a far far cry from trolling... but hey! look at you! be proud! you just trolled a response out of me about trolling! (besides that guy was following you around in several threads trying so hard to troll you... cmon t, you know me better than THAT :P)


She took it by her own right, which is a very important distinction. I like distinctions. She would have never taken it if Rand didn't feel like he needed her to do it.

Im glad you like distinctions, but you cant have it both ways... she either took it on her own in spite of rand (as she did in andor) or she took it from rand... which is it? I dont think Rand factored into her decesion much as I recall, Ill be sure to pay attention during her POV's as I am coming up on these parts soon enough in my reread

Do you have any quotes to back up your opinion that "she would never have taken it if Rand didnt feel like he needed her to do it?" The only one that comes to mind is the exact same thing she said about the Lion Throne... do you likewise think she only rules there because Rand wants it? What is the difference here between the Sun and the Rose throne... she said she would put her claim in to both if SHE wanted to... not because Rand (or ANY man) gave it to her...


Indeed, and that is a problem, the way I see it.

I am glad you see this as a problem too, but I am still unsure why you seem to think she will start giving away lands?


I think that Elayne has never wanted anything more than to rule Andor. She is Andoran, and she always will be in her heart.

I agree, she has been training her entire life to be Queen of Andor, and Cairhien has always had a ruler prior to Thom assassinating the last king... so why would she even think about conquering another land by force? It was never a dream of hers... however her father had some dreams about rulers on BOTH thrones.

which leads me into this:

Perhaps the Cairhienin don't deserve one of their own, but the word 'deserve' can take on whole new connotations in the context of Moiraine and Thom ruling Cairhien. Because it is, after all, a joint monarchy. ;)

Elayne is one of their own by blood as well... without the dark past that hangs on Moiraine.


There has been no coronation, and again, I don't believe that's an accident.

I disagree, she already took control of the country, sat upon its throne, accepted nobles as her liege people and ordered them (and thier standing army) to follow her... and they did... she changed the tradition that Colaviere (i hate trying to WOT names by memory) displayed. She is the queen of Cairhien now. She has the nobles, has thier army, even sat on the throne... coronation is just a ceremony, she has the backing of nobles, armies, etc... Queens make new rules as they see fit... you saw the coronation. The first of a new tradition perhaps. Or perhaps they will have an official one after the fields meeting, but I think you put too much stock in a ceremony when she already has the effective power of the monarchy there...


I suspect that Moiraine will have a problem with that. Just a suspicion, though; that could go down several ways.

I repeat, Moiraine has never expressed any desire in being a ruler. Infact she has expressed the exact OPPOSITE of desire to be a ruler, and has fled and spent her early years out of the tower to avoid such a thing.

I could very easily see her being an advisory to a ruler however...


I shouldn't have to. There are several scenarios that come to mind, all of them believable. It just takes a little imagination.

eh, i guess its the FOTM to not bother fleshing theories out these days...I do not believe there is a single believable scenario in which Elayne will give up that throne. The only one that comes to mind is if she dies... and I do not know how believable her death would be atm, she isnt on my likely death list, tho mainly because I havent decided exactly how i feel about Avi's 2nd pillar visions of the future.


oh well, not long before we find out now

:)

Grig
06-20-2012, 10:18 AM
Because he didnt stay in Caemlyn the first time, he didnt stay in Cairhien either, nor did he stay in Tear (nor would he have stayed, Moiraine was chasing him away from RAND, not TEAR, because he had too much influence with him)

Do you hear what you're saying? He wouldn't stay in Tear because Moiraine was chasing him away. Why? Because she saw that he was settling in, to keep Rand comfortable as a ruler. That is exactly what he would be doing for Moiraine under this theory.

Thom was a drifter because he was depressed and had no place in the world. He was settling down in Cairhien until Dena was murdered and he lost his anchor to that place. He was settling down in Tear until Moiraine had to play psychological warfare and FORCE him to leave.

There is nothing in Thom's persona that would hinder him from settling down. He's already done it twice before external events took away his reason or ability to do so.

I do not believe there is a single believable scenario in which Elayne will give up that throne.

Uh, someone with a far better claim comes along? And Elayne decides her time is better spent trying to rescue her nation from the ashes of the Trolloc assault? If she so much as sets foot in Cairhien while Andor is under existential threat, I can't imagine the nobles there ever forgiving her.

Terez
06-20-2012, 11:53 AM
oh yeah, forgot that... I was thinking when he told Moiraine he is just a regular gleeman now, despite his past...however you are mistaken. She only made him court bard of Caemlyn.
If she's queen of both, then it makes little difference, but either way, he's still a Court Bard. In a way, he always was, hence his disdain for Common and even Plain.

I dont think anyone really knows what happened to Galledrile except ThomZera knows, for one. She doesn't seem like a gossiper, exactly, but I wouldn't be surprised if she has a couple of confidantes. And it's the kind of story that would be beneficial to Thom as a king, so she'd have no reason to keep it secret: he killed Galldrian because Galldrian's men killed the woman he loved. And it just so happens that the next woman he fell in love with was one with a strong claim to Galldrian's throne.

Because he didnt stay in Caemlyn the first timeHe would have stayed there a lot longer if not for Owyn.

he didnt stay in Cairhien eitherHe probably wouldn't have stayed there for long if Dena had lived, unless he could have gotten her a place as a Court Bard somewhere. He didn't think being a gleeman was a fitting life for a woman. But now he has Moiraine, who cares little for music, but tells a fine story. :)

nor did he stay in Tear (nor would he have stayed, Moiraine was chasing him away from RAND, not TEAR, because he had too much influence with him)Sure, but the point is not that Thom is a homebody, but that he doesn't have a problem staying in one place. He's indifferent; it depends on his circumstances whether he stays in one place or stays on the road. You're trying to make it out like he's got some sort of itch and can't stay in one place for too long, and there's no evidence for it. As a gleeman, he had no choice, particularly considering his warrants, but it wasn't itchy feet that put him on the road, but purpose. Which is, incidentally, the same as Moiraine.

The only place he left with warrants was Andor.It doesn't matter, because he could be called down for those warrants nearly anywhere if he encounters the wrong people, which is why he was drinking himself silly in Tar Valon. Elaida was there. ;) But also, the job of gleeman requires that he move around a lot, and if he couldn't be a Court Bard, then being a gleeman was the only option to him. You can't stay in one place forever as a gleeman, though he did mention staying a lot longer in the bigger cities where he could get around a lot before moving on.

He would have left Tear with Rand had Moiraine not chased him off.And he would have stayed there if Rand had stayed.

And yet Moiraine was the one who spent 20+ years traveling from place to place while Siuan stayed in teh tower for the majority of those years...As I said, Moiraine thought it was ironic. There were other reasons why Moiraine was the one out hunting; one of them had to do it, and Siuan was trapped in the Tower, first by Cetalia, and then by being raised Amyrlin. It's not that Moiraine had a problem with it. But she was doing it because she was on a mission, not because she had itchy feet.

Because she is an AS, and a Blue one at that.Blues are often rulers. Lelaine thought Elayne should have been a Blue because she was skilled in politics, generally the best avenue for causes.

trolling you because I do not see the same things in Moiraine that you see?No, because you're making lazy arguments...the same kind of arguments I see from noobs at Dragonmount (and here for that matter).

Im glad you like distinctions, but you cant have it both ways... she either took it on her own in spite of rand (as she did in andor) or she took it from rand... which is it?Now you sound like Emma. Not surprising, considering, but the distinction is the answer to your question. I addressed it in the OP of this thread. She took it by her own right, but she would never have done so if Rand had not needed her to do it. It never occurred to her until he suggested it. She took it as a favor to him. She resented the idea that he would 'give' her either throne, because that is not how things are done, and it's insulting to her, but Rand doesn't understand these distinctions, so he put her back up when he said he would give her the throne, particularly the throne of Andor. I think part of her knew she'd have a slim chance of gaining the Sun Throne if Rand hadn't announced his support of her, but she didn't think about it that way because he made her angry. But I don't think there are many people daft enough to suggest that Elayne would have claimed the Sun Throne without Rand's need.

Do you have any quotes to back up your opinion that "she would never have taken it if Rand didnt feel like he needed her to do it?"Only the fact that it never occurred to her before he suggested it. That's all that is needed, for anyone with half a brain.

Elayne is one of their own by blood as well... without the dark past that hangs on Moiraine.Elayne herself has stooped to kidnapping, if not assassination (apparently kidnapping is a matter of course in Andor), and her claim to the Sun Throne is through the Damodred name, just like Moiraine's. She is half-Cairhienin by blood, but 100% Andoran in spirit, so there's still quite a difference, there. They don't see her as one of their own; that was made clear when Colavaere took the throne, and further when Dobraine went out of his way to justify Elayne's claim, noting that it bothered him that Taringail had married into Trakand instead of having Morgase marry into Damodred. And meanwhile, Dobraine's...sister? Cousin? Has been rebelling against Morgase since TFOH. An interesting situation, to be sure.

I disagree, she already took control of the countryRand took control of it, really. Way back in TFOH. Dobraine has been handling it since Berelain left in ACOS. Elayne just said a few pretty words.

I repeat, Moiraine has never expressed any desire in being a ruler. Infact she has expressed the exact OPPOSITE of desire to be a ruler, and has fled and spent her early years out of the tower to avoid such a thing.Siuan didn't want to be Amyrlin; every time Moiraine brought it up, she said to not ill-wish her, that she wanted to see the world. She ended up Amyrlin anyway, and she was a good one...and she taught Egwene how to be a good one, too. And again, all of Moiraine's reasons for not wanting to be queen then have been nullified. One of the biggest reasons she didn't want to be queen was the fear that she'd be a puppet of the Hall, for example. Who would want that? But again, the most important reason was that she felt the politics of Cairhien were trivial next to the Dragon Reborn. She was right, but after the Last Battle is won, the most important thing in the world will be maintaining some kind of balance against Seanchan rule, maintaining the freedom of channelers, maintaining the Aiel. As Queen of Cairhien, Moiraine could play an important role in all three.

eh, i guess its the FOTM to not bother fleshing theories out these days...It has nothing to do with not bothering to flesh out the theories, and more with not bothering to venture into fanfic territory. Again, use your own imagination; there's evidence enough to say it will happen, but not enough evidence to say precisely how, so I don't feel the need to stake a claim on that one.

Ieyasu
06-20-2012, 12:16 PM
Do you hear what you're saying? He wouldn't stay in Tear because Moiraine was chasing him away. Why? Because she saw that he was settling in, to keep Rand comfortable as a ruler. That is exactly what he would be doing for Moiraine under this theory.

Wrong, as Terez already acknowledged, He was chased out of tear because of his influence with Rand, not because he was setting up shop.


Thom was a drifter because he was depressed and had no place in the world.

Thom was a drifter before his depression with Dena and Morgase. Are you forgetting his story of how he traveled around as court bard? Are you forgetting the many stories he told Mat (and many others) of his past, including his carriage that he left behind?

Are you forgetting how experienced he was in citys like Tanchico? Ebu Dari? etc...


He was settling down in Cairhien until Dena was murdered and he lost his anchor to that place. He was settling down in Tear until Moiraine had to play psychological warfare and FORCE him to leave.

Negative. He was settling in as Rand's Advisor, and as such, Rand was drifting away from Moiraine. She removed him to lessen his influence. She even said it in her POV...


There is nothing in Thom's persona that would hinder him from settling down. He's already done it twice before external events took away his reason or ability to do so.

Except the very simple fact that he has never spent more than a handful of years in any one place... you are right ;)



Uh, someone with a far better claim comes along?


Someone with no desire for that claim at all you mean?


And Elayne decides her time is better spent trying to rescue her nation from the ashes of the Trolloc assault? If she so much as sets foot in Cairhien while Andor is under existential threat, I can't imagine the nobles there ever forgiving her.

Caemyln is already under attack by Trollocs and Elayne is in neither Andor nor Cairhien, she's at the FoM with both of her armies... will be interesting to see what happens there, but I do not think Elayne or either her Andoran army nor her Caihien army are going to be the ones to do anything about it at all...

Grig
06-20-2012, 12:39 PM
Wrong, as Terez already acknowledged, He was chased out of tear because of his influence with Rand, not because he was setting up shop.

Uh, seriously, read that portion of the book. Moiraine specifically notes that Thom was setting up Rand to stay in Tear and rule. And Thom saw himself as indisposable to Rand. He wouldn't have left him. So he was actively trying to "set up shop" in Tear.


Thom was a drifter before his depression with Dena and Morgase. Are you forgetting his story of how he traveled around as court bard?

Court Bards don't really "travel around".

Are you forgetting the many stories he told Mat (and many others) of his past, including his carriage that he left behind?

Yes, and how many of them were from after his strings were cut in Andor and he had no place to belong? This doesn't mean he can't settle down, it means he had his settled life taken away and he hadn't found a suitable place to settle down again yet.

Are you forgetting how experienced he was in citys like Tanchico? Ebu Dari? etc...

Again, because he was kicked out of his home. We are given no indication that he wanted anything other than to stay in Andor as the resident Bard until things went sour with Morgase.

Negative. He was settling in as Rand's Advisor, and as such, Rand was drifting away from Moiraine. She removed him to lessen his influence. She even said it in her POV...

Uh, no shit. And what was he advising Rand to do? Stay in Tear. Sounds awfully like "settling in" to me.

Except the very simple fact that he has never spent more than a handful of years in any one place... you are right ;)

Uh, we are given indication that he was in Andor for several years. His drifting was after he was cut loose and had no home.

Someone with no desire for that claim at all you mean?

[citation needed]. 20 year old Moiraine is nothing like current Moiraine in many ways. She grew up. Part of growing up is accepting responsibility. And as Terez has noted several times, her reasons for not wanting to exercise the claim are pretty null and void for current Moiraine. She was green and timid in New Spring. She has not been so for a long time.

Caemyln is already under attack by Trollocs and Elayne is in neither Andor nor Cairhien, she's at the FoM with both of her armies... will be interesting to see what happens there, but I do not think Elayne or either her Andoran army nor her Caihien army are going to be the ones to do anything about it at all...

Thanks, I had no idea Caemlyn was under attack. My point was, you thought at this point there was no way Elayne would relinquish her claim to Cairhien (which was tenuous to begin with -- even Galad should have a better claim). I was pointing out that she has no real way to hold her claim, and it would reflect very poorly on her if she tried at a time where her people were in such peril. I can't see her NOT relinquishing if someone with a better claim steps forward, as it would be too expensive politically otherwise and would make her look like an imperialist at a time when her people need her undivided attention and support.

Ieyasu
06-20-2012, 12:42 PM
If she's queen of both, then it makes little difference, but either way, he's still a Court Bard. In a way, he always was, hence his disdain for Common and even Plain.


I thought distinctions were important to you :)


Zera knows, for one. She doesn't seem like a gossiper, exactly, but I wouldn't be surprised if she has a couple of confidantes. And it's the kind of story that would be beneficial to Thom as a king, so she'd have no reason to keep it secret: he killed Galldrian because Galldrian's men killed the woman he loved. And it just so happens that the next woman he fell in love with was one with a strong claim to Galldrian's throne.


Did Zera survive the civil war and aeil conquest?


He would have stayed there a lot longer if not for Owyn.

Except the fact that he was traveling around before, during and after his bard position in Andor. His story to Mat about the Wife who wanted escape (until he offered it) was during his tenure as Bard, and as he said to Mat, he had a carriage for traveling and money and what not... he was traveling around at that very time when he met here... he was also with the queen... so again, I do not think he was even settled down while he was bard, he still toured around the country doing his thang.


He probably wouldn't have stayed there for long if Dena had lived, unless he could have gotten her a place as a Court Bard somewhere. He didn't think being a gleeman was a fitting life for a woman. But now he has Moiraine, who cares little for music, but tells a fine story. :)

Moiraine he travels as widely and as often as him... amazing

You're trying to make it out like he's got some sort of itch and can't stay in one place for too long, and there's no evidence for it. As a gleeman, he had no choice, particularly considering his warrants, but it wasn't itchy feet that put him on the road, but purpose. Which is, incidentally, the same as Moiraine.

Even as a bard of Caemyln he was still traveling around in his carriage... looking for damsels in distress...

...which is why he was drinking himself silly in Tar Valon. Elaida was there. ;)

He was drinking away his sorry over Dena and feeling bad about his involvement in the assissination. He wanted to be somewhere risky because I think he was a touch suicidal before Mat found him

But also, the job of gleeman requires that he move around a lot, and if he couldn't be a Court Bard, then being a gleeman was the only option to him. You can't stay in one place forever as a gleeman, though he did mention staying a lot longer in the bigger cities where he could get around a lot before moving on.

He moved around a lot as a Bard too... just because he came back to Caemyln and stuck around there doesnt mean he wasnt traveling around in his carriage as he told Mat...



And he would have stayed there if Rand had stayed.


Yes, but you make it out like he was setting up permanent shop in tear, and this was not the case at all. He was setting up shop to be able to aid Rand, he had too much influence so Moiraine got him out of there.


As I said, Moiraine thought it was ironic. There were other reasons why Moiraine was the one out hunting; one of them had to do it, and Siuan was trapped in the Tower, first by Cetalia, and then by being raised Amyrlin. It's not that Moiraine had a problem with it. But she was doing it because she was on a mission, not because she had itchy feet.


Blues are often rulers. Lelaine thought Elayne should have been a Blue because she was skilled in politics, generally the best avenue for causes.

Every sister of every ajah wanted any and all three of the super girls merely for the prestige women of such power would give their respective ajahs. Elaida thought she should be red because she found her first... as for blues often being rulers, can you please back this up with some sort of quote? I cant think of a single ruler who was of the blue ajah (outside of the white tower)


No, because you're making lazy arguments...the same kind of arguments I see from noobs at Dragonmount (and here for that matter).

I am making lazy arguements? You just tried to act like Thom was settling down in Tear instead of being chased away from his growing influence with Rand... you have yet to provide a single backup quote stating your opinion that Elayne is only taking the throne because Rand wants her to... you have yet to flesh this out with any back up at all... but I am making lazy arguments? as for DM? I wouldnt know what quality of posters they have there, I dont bother reading crap there, but listening to you bash everyone everywhere (here and there and elsewhere) gets old. I am well aware of your personal sense of superiority, I just do not agree it is merited.

I addressed it in the OP of this thread. She took it by her own right, but she would never have done so if Rand had not needed her to do it.

Can you please post some sort of backup from the books for your opinion? Can you show me any evidence from the books that she believes this way?


It never occurred to her until he suggested it.


It never occurred to her to invade and conquer any other nation either... Elayne isnt a conquerer of this nature... just because she didnt think of it prior doesnt mean others (like her father) didnt.


She took it as a favor to him.

Quote please


Only the fact that it never occurred to her before he suggested it.

It occurred to her father, and he wasnt the first one who dreamed of uniting those two countries...


Rand took control of it, really. Way back in TFOH. Dobraine has been handling it since Berelain left in ACOS. Elayne just said a few pretty words.

A few pretty words that got her seated in the throne, got all the nobles (and their armies) to follow her...



It has nothing to do with not bothering to flesh out the theories, and more with not bothering to venture into fanfic territory. Again, use your own imagination; there's evidence enough to say it will happen, but not enough evidence to say precisely how, so I don't feel the need to stake a claim on that one.

eh, I dont see it happening the way you. Think you will be throwing your fit on this one

Ieyasu
06-20-2012, 01:05 PM
Court Bards don't really "travel around".


..and yet, he did.


Yes, and how many of them were from after his strings were cut in Andor and he had no place to belong? This doesn't mean he can't settle down, it means he had his settled life taken away and he hadn't found a suitable place to settle down again yet.

There is not enough information to tell how many were before his post with Morgase or after the falling out. Elayne remembers pulling his mustaches as a child... they were still white then. His story he told Mat was while he was young and before his hair changed color, but he already mentioned he had his position as a court bard (though he didnt say if it was for Andor or not) I do not think Caemyln was his first position as court bard... do you? Do you know how many courts he was bard in?


Again, because he was kicked out of his home. We are given no indication that he wanted anything other than to stay in Andor as the resident Bard until things went sour with Morgase.

Except that he was old when Elayne pulled his staches and he himself said he was a bard in his 'young' story to Mat...


Uh, we are given indication that he was in Andor for several years. His drifting was after he was cut loose and had no home.

The only indication we are given is that Thom had been involved with political intrigue in many nations for many years.


[citation needed]. 20 year old Moiraine is nothing like current Moiraine in many ways. She grew up.

Please provide me with any Moiraine quote to show she has changed her opinion on AS rulers since New Spring...


Thanks, I had no idea Caemlyn was under attack. My point was, you thought at this point there was no way Elayne would relinquish her claim to Cairhien

My point is there is nothing about Elayne to suggest she will give over anything to anyone. I do not find your little scenero here believable at all. And trying to bring up nobles getting pissy because of this attack... well im pointing out she isnt there with either of her armies... she might come back, but I dont think she will save the day, she will come back to the day already saved and help with the clean up.


I was pointing out that she has no real way to hold her claim,

She has armies in both countries to enforce her claim, she has traveling to hop back and forth, she has an entire army of channelers loyal to her to provide her troops with mobility and healing. I see plenty of ways for her to hold her thrones...


and it would reflect very poorly on her if she tried at a time where her people were in such peril.

It reflects no more poorly on her than not being there while her capital is under attack now does...



I can't see her NOT relinquishing if someone with a better claim steps forward, as it would be too expensive politically otherwise and would make her look like an imperialist at a time when her people need her undivided attention and support.

I do not believe Moiraine will make any such claim.

...her captial is under attack... shes not there... what will matter is what she does if she finds out. If she runs home and saves the day? people will love her... if someone else saves the day without her? it will be 'politically expensive'... either way whether she and her armies save the day or someone else does, the people arent going to be content with an absentee ruler anyway... this is why i brought up the attack on that city.

maleshub
06-20-2012, 05:08 PM
ToM: A Rabbit for Supper

"I never have spent much of my time in Tar Valon," Moiraine said. "I think we shall enjoy traveling together, Thom Merrilin. Should we survive the months to come."

Moiraine may have made that statement in reaction to being imprisoned for so long; and maybe to soothe Thom's fears that marriage to her would tie him down to places he dislikes. And it could be foreshadowing that Moiraine will continue to pursue causes as opposed to settling down in one place.

One place Moiraine can have a significant role to play is alongside Mat and Setalle Anan in helping Fortuona overcome a bad habit or two.

Another thing to consider is how possessive and greedy monarchs are when it comes to their claims, let alone their domains. Elayne worked for months to secure her claim to the Sun Throne. And she has taken the Throne. Also, giving up the Sun Throne for Moiraine will be an open admission by Elayne that she isn't fit to rule Cairhien, which will be a major blow to her image in Andor as well. I don't think Elayne would risk that.

The Unreasoner
06-20-2012, 05:29 PM
So the theory here is just the 'Moiraine becomes Queen of Cairhien' (and the Cairhienin will be Cairhienin)?

David Selig
06-20-2012, 06:37 PM
I am 99% sure Elayne was crowned officially on the same day he came to Cairhien in Ch. 52 of ToM, it just happened offscreen and the coronation feast (not the coronation itself) was skipped because there was more important business with the meeting at Merrilor and all. But it doesn't make sense to me for Elayne come to Cairhien, sit on the Sun Throne, start ordering the Cairhien nobles and mobilising their armies if she wasn't crowned too. There was a coronation feast planned this day, so clearly the plan was to have a coronation and nobody said it was postponed.

fionwe1987
06-20-2012, 07:21 PM
Moiraine is a legend in Cairhien

Come again? She was a legend among the Rebel Aes Sedai, and by now the entire Tower, but where in the world did you get the idea she was a legend in Cairhein? Not one of them has even mentioned her, as far as I remember.

Then there's this:

Elayne loved him. But she didn't intend to see Andor become merely another part of the
Dragon's empire. Besides, if Rand were to die at Shayol Ghul, who would rule that empire? It could break up, but she worried that someone, Darlin, perhaps, would be strong enough to hold it together. If so, Andor would stand alone between an aggressive Seanchan empire to the southwest, Rand's successor to the northwest and the southeast and the Borderlanders united together in the north and northeast.
She could not let that happen. The woman in her cringed to think of planning for Rand's
death, but the Queen could not be so squeamish. The world was changing.
"I realize it will be difficult to administer two nations," Elayne said. "But I must hold Cairhien. For the good of both thrones."

Elayne may not have had much enthusiasm for the Sun Throne when she still had Andor to win. But she does now. She sees her holding of the two crowns, and her alliance with Perrin, Ghealdan, Mayene and Saldea, as her trump card against the Seanchan. Add in the Kin, strong White Tower support, and the possibility of her kids having a right to the throne of Illian too, and her strong ties to the Borderlands through Nynaeve... she's setting herself up as the new Hawkwing, the sensible choice to hold together Rand's empire against the Seanchan. I don't see her giving that up, nor do I see Moiaraine wanting to destroy this alliance. She knows as well as any that Seanchan success will only speed up with the other nations divided.

And I really doubt Thom would want to take anything away from Elayne. He thinks she makes a fine queen.

anenu
06-20-2012, 08:30 PM
This idea and the following argument need 3 response.

1. Assuming Moiraine decides to be queen or Carhien Thom would be more than happy to stay with her as he has only been a drifter because he has no place to call home and nobody in his life. He spent years as Morgase's bard and helped her win and maintain the throne and only left when he heard his nephew needed help. Nothing in his personality makes him a drifter he simply has not had a place to call home or somebody to come back to.

2. Even if everyone told the truth do you think anyone outside a handful of friends would even believe it? Beside Carhien nobles think everything from when you wake up in the morning to how long your bath last is a move in the game so no matter what happens the nobles will think its a play.

3. The idea of Thom and Moiraine ruling a nation together almost scares me and I would feel bad for those poor unprepared nobles since they wouldn't know what was about to hit them.

IvySedai
06-20-2012, 08:43 PM
I admit I havenīt read the whole thread, but thatīs because I never considered Moiraine to be queen of Carhien. In her place I have always imagined that Galad, and Berelain with him, would assume the throne. To me it is more logic. Galad is a Damodred, in direct line for succession, prior to his brother and sister Gwayn AND Elayne. I am not sure if he surpasses Moiraine, but I think he does. And Berelain would be the perfect consort, since she has already governed Cairhine for the Lord Dragon. The Perfect Royal Pair. After all, the Great Captain of the Whitecloaks canīt be married, now, can he? Just my thoughts.:)

Edit: I just checked on Damodred Family Tree. After Laman Damodredīs death, House Damodred lost the throne as it went to Galdrian Riatin, who died childless. Moiraine was the youngest daughter of Lamanīs yougest brother. Gallad is the first son of Taringail Damodred, nephew of Laman. During Galldrianīs reign, Barthanes Damodred was the Head of House Damodred and he also died without heirs. If linneage was all that mattered it could be that the actual Head of House Damodred (who is...?) would be the next King/Queen of Carhien. But we saw that there are other factors in the equation, as power, money and support from other houses. So it is more a question of having all these beyond the connections to the throne. Moiraine, Galad and Elayne could claim it. But I still bet on Galad. Moiraine has already said she didnīt want it and Elayne will find that she got more than she could hold.

anenu
06-20-2012, 10:48 PM
I admit I havenīt read the whole thread, but thatīs because I never considered Moiraine to be queen of Carhien. In her place I have always imagined that Galad, and Berelain with him, would assume the throne. To me it is more logic. Galad is a Damodred, in direct line for succession, prior to his brother and sister Gwayn AND Elayne. I am not sure if he surpasses Moiraine, but I think he does. And Berelain would be the perfect consort, since she has already governed Cairhine for the Lord Dragon. The Perfect Royal Pair. After all, the Great Captain of the Whitecloaks canīt be married, now, can he? Just my thoughts.:)

Edit: I just checked on Damodred Family Tree. After Laman Damodredīs death, House Damodred lost the throne as it went to Galdrian Riatin, who died childless. Moiraine was the youngest daughter of Lamanīs yougest brother. Gallad is the first son of Taringail Damodred, nephew of Laman. During Galldrianīs reign, Barthanes Damodred was the Head of House Damodred and he also died without heirs. If linneage was all that mattered it could be that the actual Head of House Damodred (who is...?) would be the next King/Queen of Carhien. But we saw that there are other factors in the equation, as power, money and support from other houses. So it is more a question of having all these beyond the connections to the throne. Moiraine, Galad and Elayne could claim it. But I still bet on Galad. Moiraine has already said she didnīt want it and Elayne will find that she got more than she could hold.

While Galad does have a good claim I always thought he would establish himself with Berelain in Mayene and bring the Children of the Light with him since a powerful military force would actually help the nation stay independent plus I can't see Berelain deciding to give up Mayene and they can't rule both nations since they are rather far apart. Plus I don't see Galad ever even trying to press his claim.

Terez
06-21-2012, 01:52 AM
I thought distinctions were important to you :)
Sometimes they are important, and sometimes they are not.

Did Zera survive the civil war and aeil conquest?We have no reason to believe that she did not. If she was inside the walls during the siege, which seems likely, then she probably survived.

Except the fact that he was traveling around before, during and after his bard position in Andor.And? Still nothing to indicate that he has itchy feet.

He was drinking away his sorry over Dena and feeling bad about his involvement in the assissination. He wanted to be somewhere risky because I think he was a touch suicidal before Mat found himYes, I know.

Yes, but you make it out like he was setting up permanent shop in tear, and this was not the case at all. He was setting up shop to be able to aid Rand, he had too much influence so Moiraine got him out of there.The point is that he didn't have a problem staying in one place. Your entire argument rests on the notion that he does. It's ridiculous, and I won't waste another word on it, nor will I waste any words on you being lazy and not looking up your own quotes. If you can't remember half the series, then you should probably lay off being aggressive. Ask questions instead of assuming that you are right about everything. I'm not going to run and fetch quotes right and left because you question everything I say. This isn't about me being right about Moiraine being queen. This is about you being lazy and ignorant.

It occurred to her father, and he wasnt the first one who dreamed of uniting those two countries... Oh yes, Taringail Damodred is an excellent role model for Elayne. It's a shame Thom killed him.

Terez
06-21-2012, 02:09 AM
I am 99% sure Elayne was crowned officially on the same day he came to Cairhien in Ch. 52 of ToM, it just happened offscreen and the coronation feast (not the coronation itself) was skipped because there was more important business with the meeting at Merrilor and all. But it doesn't make sense to me for Elayne come to Cairhien, sit on the Sun Throne, start ordering the Cairhien nobles and mobilising their armies if she wasn't crowned too. There was a coronation feast planned this day, so clearly the plan was to have a coronation and nobody said it was postponed.
Elayne very deliberately wrote off the ceremony as unimportant because Tarmon Gai'don was on the doorstep. There was no ceremony off screen; all she did was sit on the throne. And Birgitte sat on it first. ;) There were a few details to go along with Birgitte to make me think that the scene was a ruse plot-wise. "Our sister from Andor..." "Some of you are dissatisfied..." "We will feast when the Last Battle has been won and Cairhien's children are safe..." But despite that the scene annoyed me because it came off as snarky.

The idea of Thom and Moiraine ruling a nation together almost scares me and I would feel bad for those poor unprepared nobles since they wouldn't know what was about to hit them.
Hence the poetic justice of it. The Cairhienin do deserve Moiraine as their ruler. She is one of them. She grew up in the Sun Palace just like Elayne grew up in the Royal Palace in Caemlyn, though Elayne grew up knowing she would be queen and Moiraine did not. Moiraine still spent more years in the Sun Palace than she spent in the Tower, from what we have been led to believe. I don't think any of the surviving Cairhienin nobles grew up in the Sun Palace, though I could be wrong. Caraline might have, but she is married to the King of Tear.

Terez
06-21-2012, 02:20 AM
Come again? She was a legend among the Rebel Aes Sedai, and by now the entire Tower, but where in the world did you get the idea she was a legend in Cairhein?
She is a legend among the rebels for what she did in Cairhien. That's all you need to know.

Elayne may not have had much enthusiasm for the Sun Throne when she still had Andor to win. But she does now.She is trying to make the best of the situation she is in.

She sees her holding of the two crowns, and her alliance with Perrin, Ghealdan, Mayene and Saldea, as her trump card against the Seanchan.Moiraine ruling Cairhien will actually make that alliance stronger, since Elayne's attention would not be divided between two nations, and she'd have another Aes Sedai ruler for an ally.

And I really doubt Thom would want to take anything away from Elayne. He thinks she makes a fine queen.He also knows that all she really wants is to be a good queen of Andor. He wouldn't take something from her of his own volition, but I have a feeling that this will be Elayne's idea anyway. I can definitely see Moiraine and Thom both being uneasy about the noble-switching thing, though, and that might possibly come into it.

David Selig
06-21-2012, 11:48 AM
Elayne very deliberately wrote off the ceremony as unimportant because Tarmon Gai'don was on the doorstep. There was no ceremony off screen; all she did was sit on the throne. And Birgitte sat on it first. ;) There were a few details to go along with Birgitte to make me think that the scene was a ruse plot-wise. "Our sister from Andor..." "Some of you are dissatisfied..." "We will feast when the Last Battle has been won and Cairhien's children are safe..." But despite that the scene annoyed me because it came off as snarky.

Elayne wrote off the coronation feast as unimportant, not the coronation itself. It just makes no sense to come to Cairhien with the intention to claim the Sun Throne, then sit on the throne, be accepted as the Queen by the local nobles, but not get coronated. The coronation could be done in 15 minutes, so lack of time is not a valid excuse.

Come to think of it, who would formally coronate a monarch in Cairhien? In the real world it is usually done by the head of the dominant religious organisation in the realm, but there are no such things in WoT. Rand was crowned in Illian by the Council of Nine, but they have no analogue in Cairhien.

Davian93
06-21-2012, 12:24 PM
Rand is the de facto leader of the Light and hope of all mankind...he would preside over it. Or in his absence, his designated Steward would preside.

Seriously though, I dont see Moiraine taking over Cairhien in any scenario where Elayne is still alive. I could see Elayne making someone like Galad her viceroy there and I could see Elayne simply ruling both nations by herself as with the knowledge of traveling, the distance is a moot point.

That goes for the Galad/Berelain argument too. Distance is no longer an issue as long as you have a couple nearby channelers.

GonzoTheGreat
06-21-2012, 12:26 PM
The word you should be using is "crowned". And however it was done, Colavaere was "at sunrise ... crowned Queen of Cairhien according to the laws and usages of Cairhien" (CoS, Ch. 5, A Broken Crown).
I have no idea whether or not the time of day was relevant there.

Terez
06-21-2012, 12:26 PM
Distance is not an issue, but time is always an issue for a ruler of even one nation.

Davian93
06-21-2012, 01:17 PM
Distance is not an issue, but time is always an issue for a ruler of even one nation.

That is why rulers have viceroys...or Stewards even. Elayne has already set a similar precedent with her actions towards Perrin and the Two Rivers.

Also, there is plenty of real-world precedent for the current dynastic union she is setting up between the Crowns of Andor and Cairhien respectively. A complete unification is also very possible under such a situation...particularly given her movement to give Andoran nobles Cairhienin titles and Cairhienin nobles Andoran titles.


EDIT: I should have said personal union, not dynastic union. If Elayne's boy is born first, the crowns will automatically separate again with Andor going to her daughter and Cairhien going to her son.

Davian93
06-21-2012, 01:18 PM
The word you should be using is "crowned". And however it was done, Colavaere was "at sunrise ... crowned Queen of Cairhien according to the laws and usages of Cairhien" (CoS, Ch. 5, A Broken Crown).
I have no idea whether or not the time of day was relevant there.

Given the sun imagery inherent in Cairhien, I would bet that the time of day is a very important tradition.

maleshub
06-21-2012, 09:17 PM
When a monarch claims a domain and is recognized and accepted, he or she does not simply step aside because a "better" ruler comes along! It is their prerogative, their right, and their arrogance. And Elayne's chin will be raised higher than ever before if anyone suggests that Moiraine would be a better ruler for Cairhien. That would open the doors for someone suggesting that a better ruler for Andor can step up and take the Lion Throne as well!

Elayne will not give up the Sun Throne for Moiraine, who has indicated she'd prefer to travel around with Thom than settle down anywhere.

Landro
06-22-2012, 07:09 AM
Quoting and responding to each other line by line is extremely annoying and makes it very annoying to read people's responses. This is my way of saying sorry for skipping over the other comments.

I always thought Galad would end up as the new king of Cairhien because his claim is stronger than Elaine's. I don't know if Moiraine has a stronger claim than Galad but after all she's been through, I think she'd prefer some time with Tom away from the spot lights. I think Moiraine will see Galad as a fair and strong ruler which would make that decision a lot easier. Galad would be perfect to beat the Game of Houses out of them and restore the country to prosperity.

Grig
06-22-2012, 10:48 AM
And Elayne's chin will be raised higher than ever before if anyone suggests that Moiraine would be a better ruler for Cairhien. That would open the doors for someone suggesting that a better ruler for Andor can step up and take the Lion Throne as well!

There's a difference between "a better ruler" and "a ruler with a better claim to the throne". This would be comparable to Rand leaving the throne of Andor so that Elayne could exercise her rightful claim. Or him vacating the Sun Throne so that someone with a rightful claim could claim it, etc etc./=

Davian93
06-22-2012, 11:01 AM
There's a difference between "a better ruler" and "a ruler with a better claim to the throne". This would be comparable to Rand leaving the throne of Andor so that Elayne could exercise her rightful claim. Or him vacating the Sun Throne so that someone with a rightful claim could claim it, etc etc./=

Rand was never formally proclaimed King of Andor or King of Cairhien. Elayne is now Queen of Cairhien. Its a slight but very important difference.

Terez
06-22-2012, 01:29 PM
Except that she's skirted some important formalities in lieu of the Last Battle, and there's good reason to think that was intentional. I have a hard time understanding the argument that she will somehow have a problem giving up a throne that she's not even fully taken yet, and never really wanted in the first place.

I also have issues with her sense of entitlement when it comes to the Two Rivers, but I think that sense of entitlement is in many ways more honest than any sense of entitlement she might have concerning the Sun Throne.

Davian93
06-22-2012, 02:41 PM
William the Conqueror became King of England in Oct 1066, he wasnt coronated until Dec. He was still king from Oct-Dec regardless.

fionwe1987
06-22-2012, 02:48 PM
Except that she's skirted some important formalities in lieu of the Last Battle, and there's good reason to think that was intentional. I have a hard time understanding the argument that she will somehow have a problem giving up a throne that she's not even fully taken yet, and never really wanted in the first place.
What formalities? The coronation feast? As far as I know, there was no feasting when Egwene was declared Amyrlin in the Tower either. Instead, there was rebuilding, eviscerating the BA, reswearing Oaths... should we now assume Egwene will be giving up the Amyrlin Seat too?

And I've shown you a quote where Elayne says she not only wants the Sun Throne, but feels having it is critical, not just for the LB, but for post-LB confrontations with the Seanchan. An ally on the throne doesn't achieve the same thing, or she'd have asked Gawyn or Galad to take the throne.
I also have issues with her sense of entitlement when it comes to the Two Rivers, but I think that sense of entitlement is in many ways more honest than any sense of entitlement she might have concerning the Sun Throne.
Its more necessity and fear, with the Sun Throne.

maleshub
06-22-2012, 04:28 PM
There's a difference between "a better ruler" and "a ruler with a better claim to the throne". This would be comparable to Rand leaving the throne of Andor so that Elayne could exercise her rightful claim. Or him vacating the Sun Throne so that someone with a rightful claim could claim it, etc etc./=

"stronger claim to the throne" stops when a monarch is recognized and sits on the throne. After that, all claims tend to be forgotten.

But even stronger claim doesn't always win. Remember that Elena claimed to have a stronger connection to Ishara than Dyelin, yet she wasn't chosen by Pelivar and Co. for the Lion Throne.

Except that she's skirted some important formalities in lieu of the Last Battle, and there's good reason to think that was intentional. I have a hard time understanding the argument that she will somehow have a problem giving up a throne that she's not even fully taken yet, and never really wanted in the first place.

I also have issues with her sense of entitlement when it comes to the Two Rivers, but I think that sense of entitlement is in many ways more honest than any sense of entitlement she might have concerning the Sun Throne.

If the Colavaere experience is any indication, the official Cairhienin coronation festivities cover a period of 7-10 days with different sittings. Elayne did not have time for that since the Field of Merrilor conference was more important.

What this theory needs to examine closer is Elayne the monarch and how she views her claims and domains. She was contemplating the assassination option with Perrin, even if only during her pregnancy emotional swings, because her rule was questioned in the Two Rivers.

She has been working for months to secure Cairhien. And she's invested considerable time and resources to achieve it. And she cemented her relationship to Cairhien with meeting the bellfounders of the city. Small as it might seem to outsiders, but I don't think Elayne would risk having a neighboring kingdom in possession of the greatest conventional weapon of the next age.

And as Fionwe said, Elayne is already thinking post-TG on who will rule the Dragon's Empire and how her domain will be affected by that and by the Seanchan. She's already collecting power cards to ensure that her rule will be strong enough to endure the challenges and savvy enough to grab the chances for additional power.

From another angle, Rand has been laying the groundwork for Elayne's takeover of Cairhien for some time with Dobraine and his sworn Aes Sedai. Sashalle already handed Cairhien to Elayne in the name of the Dragon Reborn. For the Cairhienin that is a more powerful argument than Moiraine's forgotten claim to the throne.

Also when Sashelle handed Cairhien to Elayne, Rand effectively exited the equation. He no longer holds power or leverage over the people since his "chosen" candidate ascended the Sun Throne. For him to come back and say that Moiraine should be Queen would shred his and Elayne's reputations.

Cairhien is too tired to go through another power shift that might give Cairhienin nobles an opening to contest Moiraine and throw the country back to civil war.

And Elayne is too proud and ambitious a monarch to give Cairhien to Moiraine. After all, she already told us "I am not beholden to anyone."

Terez
06-22-2012, 04:45 PM
"stronger claim to the throne" stops when a monarch is recognized and sits on the throne. After that, all claims tend to be forgotten.

But even stronger claim doesn't always win. Remember that Elena claimed to have a stronger connection to Ishara than Dyelin, yet she wasn't chosen by Pelivar and Co. for the Lion Throne.
The strength Dyelin's claim was through the line of succession while Trakand held the throne.

If the Colavaere experience is any indication, the official Cairhienin coronation festivities cover a period of 7-10 days with different sittings. Elayne did not have time for that since the Field of Merrilor conference was more important.Yes, we all know that. I'm saying it's not an accident that Elayne didn't get around to making her move on Cairhien until now.


She has been working for months to secure Cairhien. And she's invested considerable time and resources to achieve it.Not true, on any count.

Cairhien is too tired to go through another power shiftThat's just silly. It doesn't make a difference either way to their tiredness, and they'd probably be a lot happier with an actual Cairhienin.

maleshub
06-22-2012, 05:08 PM
Yes, we all know that. I'm saying it's not an accident that Elayne didn't get around to making her move on Cairhien until now.

True, you're saying it wasn't an accident that she delayed her move.

But it could very well be that her plans didn't bear fruit till then. After all, she had Dyelin collect information; then she met the nobles; then she sent the Band to Cairhien; and then she she went and sat on the Sun Throne.

In light of ToM's timeframe, those steps need time. And none seem to be delaying tactics.

Not true, on any count.

- Elayne knew that Rand wanted her to have Cairhien.
- As soon as she secured Andor, she started preparing to take Cairhien despite advice against that from her confidantes.
- She had Norry and Dyelin gather information on the breakdown of the houses.
- She brought Cairhienin nobles to Andor and gave them estates in Andor to cement her claim and dispel the perception she's a conqueror.
- She hired the Band of the Red Hand to go in her name to Cairhien to "restore order."
- She accepted the Sun Throne from Rand through Sashelle.
- She disclosed Andor's secret weapon to the Cairhien.

That's just silly. It doesn't make a difference either way to their tiredness, and they'd probably be a lot happier with an actual Cairhienin.

Pure speculation that they think they'd be happy under a Cairhienin since the last few Cairhienin monarchs brought disasters to the Kingdom, bringing it down from the most prosperous in Randland to the most war-ravaged Kingdom with tens of thousands of refugees dispersed all over Randland.

Cairhien has lacked stability for too long to want another succession or power transfer that will reignite the ambitions of nobles and houses.

Terez
06-22-2012, 05:15 PM
True, you're saying it wasn't an accident that she delayed her move.

But it could very well be that her plans didn't bear fruit till then. After all, she had Dyelin collect information; then she met the nobles; then she sent the Band to Cairhien; and then she she went and sat on the Sun Throne.
I'm talking about story-wise, not as-if-it-were-real.

Pure speculation that they think they'd be happy under a Cairhienin
No it isn't. I've already provided quotes on that, and there are more where those came from.

maleshub
06-22-2012, 05:27 PM
No it isn't. I've already provided quotes on that, and there are more where those came from.

:) And I provided the history of Cairhienin under Cairhienin monarchs for the past 3 decades.

Still, this shrinking debate seems to leave out considerable evidence pointing to Elayne cementing her ties to Cairhien at the expense of Andor's "national security." If Elayne was hesitant about Cairhien, why do everything that she did?

Terez
06-22-2012, 05:28 PM
:) And I provided the history of Cairhienin under Cairhienin monarchs for the past 3 decades.
Which is entirely irrelevant.

Still, this shrinking debate seems to leave out considerable evidence pointing to Elayne cementing her ties to Cairhien at the expense of Andor's "national security." If Elayne was hesitant about Cairhien, why do everything that she did?
No one said she was hesitant. I've said several times that she only put a claim forward because Rand needed her to. How hard is that to understand?

fionwe1987
06-22-2012, 05:31 PM
No it isn't. I've already provided quotes on that, and there are more where those came from.
But you ignore the statements which say Elayne does have a legitimate claim. Dobraine and Caraline have both said it, so has Alill, who was a fervant supporter of Elayne thanks to Verin. You have three of the major Houses either directly supporting or discreetly refusing to oppose Elayne's claim. Then you have the new crop of Houses which have a lot at stake based on the merger of the two monarchies, and would actually want the current state of affairs to continue.

The last group will work against Moiraine, even if Elayne orders otherwise. And that means civil war right after the ravages of Tarmon Gaidon...

maleshub
06-22-2012, 05:35 PM
Which is entirely irrelevant.

Ok! The decline of a nation from one of the richest to one of the most war-ravaged and fragmented; and the suffering of the people as a result of their monarchs' follies is irrelevant.

I think it might be worthwhile to give consideration to the impact of civil war and power-bickering on people's morale and opinions. And it might be interesting to study the impact of prolonged conflict and war and how that pushes people towards stability rather than additional power shifting.


No one said she was hesitant. I've said several times that she only put a claim forward because Rand needed her to. How hard is that to understand?

But why did she do it so whole-heartedly, giving away estates in Andor and disclosing the Dragons?

The theory implies that Elayne did this as a favor to Rand (who is by the way out of the picture now and cannot just jump in to give the Throne to another "chosen"). Why do it so wholeheartedly at Andor's national security interests?

Grig
06-22-2012, 05:56 PM
But why did she do it so whole-heartedly, giving away estates in Andor and disclosing the Dragons?

Because it was a convenient way to peacefully integrate them while reducing the risk of assassination? Giving away the estates of her political enemies to make new friends is hardly "whole-heartedly taking rule of Cairhien". It's a way of killing two birds with one stone.

If you read ToM, chapter 11, Elayne saw taking rule of Cairhien as a way to keep Andor safe in the event that Rand dies. Moiraine ruling Cairhien would not harm this goal at all, and would by far reduce the danger to Elayne from Cairhienin nobles playing Daes Dae'mar.

Also, please note that it's not like she became Queen of Cairhien then gave them lands in Andor. She made them stewards over land in Andor in return for them supporting her for the Sun Throne, and hinted that more lands would be available for gifting if they supported her bid for the throne of Cairhien. It may be unintentional, but you're completely misrepresenting the actions under discussion. She didn't just walk over and plump her prim bottom onto the Sun Throne, she bribed the nobles to support her by using Andoran lands to manipulate their greed to her betterment.

maleshub
06-22-2012, 06:14 PM
Elayne's thoughts in ToM: Choosing Enemies

"But what if she gave lands within Andor to some of the Cairhienin nobility? What if she created multiple bonds between their countries? What if she proved that she would not steal their titles - but would instead be willing to give some of them greater holdings? Would that be enough to prove that she didn't intend to steal the lands of the Cairhien nobility and give them to her own people? Would that ease their worries?"

Later Dyelin comments: "A clever maneuver, Your Majesty, but dangerous."

And then Morgase says: "So she made bonds between the two nations."

And Elayne admits that giving Andoran land to a Cairhienin noble has its ramifications: "He gave in because he saw that I was handing him the chance for both thrones.... I've essentially limited my competition. They saw the dragons, and those made them envious. Then I offered them the chance not only to gain access to those weapons, but to double their wealth. And on top of that, I gave them the seed of possibility that one day, they might be named king."

That hardly seems a clever ploy to avoid assassination. It is cementing bonds between two countries.

As to Moiraine being a safe bet to support Elayne, there is no guarantee that Moiraine's or Elayne's successors will continue to be so friendly. Gareth Bryne has fought the Cairhienin; so hostility between the two nations isn't something new. It could flare up in the future; but not if one monarch works to unify the two kingdoms.

Davian93
06-22-2012, 09:04 PM
Elayne did the exact same thing that a large number of English kings did to secure Scotland.

Other than going round and round on this, I dont really see the point of the discussion at this point. Both camps can use the quotes to support their side...only the final book will tell us what happens.

I simply dont see Elayne willingly giving up Cairhien. She'd be far more secure in her rule and secure against the Seanchan by having her own empire.

Appointing Moiraine or Galad as Steward makes far more sense than giving up an entire kingdom.

fionwe1987
06-23-2012, 01:58 AM
Moiraine ruling Cairhien would not harm this goal at all, and would by far reduce the danger to Elayne from Cairhienin nobles playing Daes Dae'mar.
This is so naive I want to cry. No matter what Elayne does, she is part of Das Dae'mar in Carihein now. Nobles like Lorstrum who gained rich, productive lands in Andor in exchange for supporting her will want her to continue as Queen of both nations, since that means that for their efforts, they can win not one but two thrones. They will not want Moiraine in the throne at all.

And no matter how friendly they may be, the rulers of two nations can't help but end up with situations where there will be competition and rivalry. Take Egwene and Elayne for example. They're great friends who have similar views on almost everything. As rulers of Tar Valon and Andor, though, they're going to have several areas of contention, Elayne's plan for the Kin not least among them.

However good their intention, however great their determination to remain friends, separate rulers of Andor and Cairhein can offer less security and unity for both, against the Seanchan. Hence, Elayne's determination to hold both thrones.

maleshub
06-23-2012, 08:45 PM
Elayne did the exact same thing that a large number of English kings did to secure Scotland.

Other than going round and round on this, I dont really see the point of the discussion at this point. Both camps can use the quotes to support their side...only the final book will tell us what happens.

I simply dont see Elayne willingly giving up Cairhien. She'd be far more secure in her rule and secure against the Seanchan by having her own empire.

Appointing Moiraine or Galad as Steward makes far more sense than giving up an entire kingdom.

Galad as Steward would have a small degree of irony and symbolism. The CoL (WC's is my preferred acronym for them so far) lost the golden sun in Amadicia and gained the Sun Throne in Cairhien, because their LCC is Steward to a "Witch!"

The Unreasoner
06-24-2012, 10:45 AM
I was hoping for a really cool Great Game theory. But the title was a bait and switch.

I really couldn't care less if Moiraine takes the throne of Cairhien (although I'm pretty sure Elayne already has). I can't really see RJ hating Moiraine that much though.

I do have a question on the theory: How much of the Cairhienin Queen/King's estates have already been transferred to the Andoran nobility? And vice versa? Elayne already promised some land to Elenia, no? With plans to transfer more? It seems like splitting the kingdoms again among two monarchs would still leave a number of Houses with land in two nations in any case. I can't see Elayne, at least, being okay with foreign nobles (not sworn to her) owning Andoran territory. No matter how much she likes Moiraine.

The Angry Druid
07-10-2012, 05:38 PM
Well, I'm firmly at odds with Tevez here. I don't think there is much of chance of Moiraine ruling Cairhein.

We have it from her own mouth she doesn't want to. She'll want to have a life with Thom, I'd expect. Not that she wouldn't be a good queen, she would be. She just doesn't want to be one.

I'd think Galad, Dobraine, or my personal choice, Caraline Damodred, make the most sense. Cadsuane has a bit of a hold on Ailil Riatin, but after he little dagger discussion with Rand lying helpless, I don't think Elayne would trust her, if she ever found out. Caraline, however, IS trustworthy. And Rand, Min, and Cadsuane can all vouch for her. Of course, she is likely going to be in Tear with with her soon to be hubby. So I guess we'll see.

I think Caemlyn will largely be destroyed in the battle and Elayne will rule both nations from the "Court of the Sun" in Cairhien.

Terez
07-10-2012, 05:55 PM
I don't think there is much of chance of Moiraine ruling Cairhein.

We have it from her own mouth she doesn't want to.
20 years ago, and for reasons already pointed out to be null and void now.

frenchie
07-10-2012, 06:50 PM
And why would Caraline, who will be Queen of Tear, take the job of Steward of Cairhein? She doesn't mind her cousin taking the throne, and she loves Darlin. Why would she want to spend time away from him by "ruling" Cairhein?

maleshub
07-10-2012, 09:07 PM
We have it from her own mouth she doesn't want to.

She just doesn't want to be one.


20 years ago, and for reasons already pointed out to be null and void now.

A more recent hint about Moiraine's preferences after the confinement in the realm of the snakes and foxes.

Towers of Midnight: A Rabbit for Supper

"I never have spent much of my time in Tar Valon," Moiraine said. "I think we shall enjoy traveling together, Thom Merrilin. Should we survive the months to come."

Terez
07-10-2012, 10:25 PM
Yes, we all know about that one, but it's hardly strong. She has no reason to believe at that point that there will be anything important for her to do after the Last Battle.

maleshub
07-11-2012, 08:48 PM
Yes, we all know about that one, but it's hardly strong. She has no reason to believe at that point that there will be anything important for her to do after the Last Battle.

Only 5 months before we find out ;)

Terez
07-12-2012, 12:14 AM
No, we can already say for sure that one is not strong, no matter how it turns out. It's not evidence; there are tons of people who think they're going to do one thing and end up doing something else.

newyorkersedai
07-15-2012, 06:53 AM
No, we can already say for sure that one is not strong, no matter how it turns out. It's not evidence; there are tons of people who think they're going to do one thing and end up doing something else.

Terez, I may love ya, and I may even lurve you, but Moiraine's a crusading Blue. That's not a good fit for sitting on her ass on a throne. I see Moiraine as the traveling type - hell more so once she learns Traveling, maybe...

Terez
07-15-2012, 07:18 AM
Terez, I may love ya, and I may even lurve you, but Moiraine's a crusading Blue. That's not a good fit for sitting on her ass on a throne. I see Moiraine as the traveling type - hell more so once she learns Traveling, maybe...
Siuan was always the traveling type, hence Moiraine thinking it was ironic that she ended up going off while Siuan got stuck in the Tower. And what better place to crusade as a Blue than from a powerful throne? Blues and politics go hand in hand.

newyorkersedai
07-15-2012, 11:52 AM
True, but then was Jordan ret-conning? Siuan is a horrific horse-rider, and I doubt she'd love travel so much if she can barely handle the most common mode of transport. She certainly wouldn't've had access to easier modes of transport (carriage, palanquin) until she became an AS..

No, we can already say for sure that one is not strong, no matter how it turns out. It's not evidence; there are tons of people who think they're going to do one thing and end up doing something else.

Siuan was always the traveling type, hence Moiraine thinking it was ironic that she ended up going off while Siuan got stuck in the Tower. And what better place to crusade as a Blue than from a powerful throne? Blues and politics go hand in hand.

Terez
07-15-2012, 12:33 PM
True, but then was Jordan ret-conning? Siuan is a horrific horse-rider, and I doubt she'd love travel so much if she can barely handle the most common mode of transport.
When she was dreaming about it, it was all about the places, for her. And she imagined taking ships to far-away places, and we know she can handle those. But now that she finally has the freedom to do it, she can use Traveling.

finnssss
07-15-2012, 01:52 PM
When she was dreaming about it, it was all about the places, for her. And she imagined taking ships to far-away places, and we know she can handle those. But now that she finally has the freedom to do it, she can use Traveling.

Providing she has an angreal or she gets healed to full by a man.
Obviously the second option is pretty likely.

Terez
07-15-2012, 03:48 PM
The second option is not likely at all, as Brandon says she doesn't want to do it. But she does have a sa'angreal. :) She might not get to keep it, but Egwene did promise her an angreal at least.

newyorkersedai
07-15-2012, 06:34 PM
Do you think women need angreal in order to determine their own lives? Sigh

The second option is not likely at all, as Brandon says she doesn't want to do it. But she does have a sa'angreal. :) She might not get to keep it, but Egwene did promise her an angreal at least.

Terez
07-15-2012, 06:50 PM
No. Just to Travel. ;) (If they're not strong enough.) And Moiraine has one too, so it's only fair.

maleshub
07-15-2012, 07:32 PM
The cornerstone of the theory is Elayne's willingness to step down from the Sun Throne and hand it to Moiraine. The opening to this possibility is that Elayne did not have a coronation ceremony; a hint that she is willing to give the throne to someone else who is worthy.

This premeditated intent of temporary ascension , or half-heartedness in taking the Sun Throne, is countered by concrete actions taken by Elayne to strengthen bonds between Andor and Cairhien. And some of these bonds threaten Elayne's Lion Throne security.

What Elayne has done to bond the two kingdoms screams louder that what she may have not done to keep them separate.

Terez
07-15-2012, 07:36 PM
What Elayne has done to bond the two kingdoms screams louder that what she may have not done to keep them separate.
"Whatever can be done, can be undone."—Rand to the Queen of Cairhien

maleshub
07-15-2012, 07:48 PM
"Whatever can be done, can be undone."—Rand to the Queen of Cairhien

How true? That gives a window of chance for this to happen.

But the context of Rand's quote would be hard to apply to the Elayne - Moiraine succession. Rand's quote was stated against a "perceived" usurper of the Sun Throne; whereas Elayne is Rand's choice for a number of practical political and military reasons.

And we do have Elayne's "I am not beholden to anybody (or was it to him)." As a Queen, she'll do what she wants. And her thoughts on the Kin, Asha'man, "league of monarchies," and post-TG Rand empire indicate that she wants to consolidate her power. Unifying 2 Kingdoms might be more secure than an alliance between the 2 said kingdoms.

Terez
07-16-2012, 04:22 AM
How true? That gives a window of chance for this to happen.

But the context of Rand's quote would be hard to apply to the Elayne - Moiraine succession.
No it isn't. You just don't want to apply it.

maleshub
07-16-2012, 03:25 PM
How true? That gives a window of chance for this to happen.

But the context of Rand's quote would be hard to apply to the Elayne - Moiraine succession. Rand's quote was stated against a "perceived" usurper of the Sun Throne; whereas Elayne is Rand's choice for a number of practical political and military reasons.

And we do have Elayne's "I am not beholden to anybody (or was it to him)." As a Queen, she'll do what she wants. And her thoughts on the Kin, Asha'man, "league of monarchies," and post-TG Rand empire indicate that she wants to consolidate her power. Unifying 2 Kingdoms might be more secure than an alliance between the 2 said kingdoms.

No it isn't. You just don't want to apply it.

1- Regarding your reply, I am confused. What Rand did to Colavaere would be the same thing that will be done to Elayne if Rand wants Moiraine to take the Sun Throne. Are the situations similar?

What can be done can be undone is a general life principal. But quoting it from Rand in the context it was stated cannot be that negligible.

2- Considering that Moiraine spent time in Cairhien after Rand took it, and Rand didn't try to hand her the throne, and the Cairhienin know that .... what are your thoughts on that?

3- And regarding the second paragraph of my post above, does that describe what Elayne seems to be doing since ascending the Lion Throne? Does it reflect her personality?

Terez
07-16-2012, 04:57 PM
1- Regarding your reply, I am confused. What Rand did to Colavaere would be the same thing that will be done to Elayne if Rand wants Moiraine to take the Sun Throne. Are the situations similar?
It doesn't matter if the situations are similar; the truth is still the same. Elayne giving up the throne to Moiraine doesn't have to be anything like the Colavaere situation for that truth to apply.

2- Considering that Moiraine spent time in Cairhien after Rand took it, and Rand didn't try to hand her the throne, and the Cairhienin know that .... what are your thoughts on that?
The title of this thread, obviously.

maleshub
07-17-2012, 05:02 PM
Elayne giving up the throne to Moiraine .....

But the theory keeps ignoring Elayne's personality and her actions taken to bond and unify the kingdoms, as opposed to keeping them independent of each other to lay a suitable framework for a future transition of power.

Terez
07-17-2012, 05:17 PM
Her actions have been minimal, and in some cases possibly destructive. As for her personality, in TOM I think it was pretty out-of-character.

maleshub
07-17-2012, 06:13 PM
Her actions have been minimal, and in some cases possibly destructive. As for her personality, in TOM I think it was pretty out-of-character.

I agree that her ToM outbursts seemed out of character. But her thoughts on Sashelle's speech of handing her the Sun Throne grated her. She's a monarch, with all the pride, arrogance, and possessiveness.

Some of her actions will be hard to undo, especially the estates and titles given to Andorans in Cairhien and to Cairhienin in Andor. And she cannot take back the knowledge of the Dragons from Cairhienin bellfounders.

Terez
07-17-2012, 06:57 PM
I agree that her ToM outbursts seemed out of character. But her thoughts on Sashelle's speech of handing her the Sun Throne grated her. She's a monarch, with all the pride, arrogance, and possessiveness.
And, IMO, setting herself up for a fall.

Some of her actions will be hard to undo
I don't think so.

maleshub
07-17-2012, 07:01 PM
1- And, IMO, setting herself up for a fall.


2- I don't think so.

1- I wouldn't complain if Elayne's pride and arrogance are brought down to earth.

2- How can she take back knowledge of Dragons from the Cairhienin bellfounders?

Terez
07-17-2012, 07:06 PM
She doesn't have to, since Moiraine will be her ally. I doubt Mat will complain either.

maleshub
07-17-2012, 07:10 PM
She doesn't have to, since Moiraine will be her ally. I doubt Mat will complain either.

True; but that doesn't guarantee Moiraine's successors being allies. Andor and Cairhien have a history of armed conflict; and it could flare up. Elayne is taking a huge risk without any substantial gain from it.

GonzoTheGreat
07-18-2012, 03:24 AM
There's only one realistic scenario in which Moiraine would take the Cairhienin crown:
She and Elayne decide together that's the best option. Then they approach Rand, and have him use the Colavaere precedent to hand the crown to someone else.

That would be something that both Moiraine and Elayne agreed upon, so it would not lead to trouble from that point of view.
It would be based in some sort of legal precedent, so it would have a clear aura of legality.
It would be something that only the DR could do, thus it would not be a threat to any other crown, unless they really annoyed Rand, and then only as long as he was around.

Terez
07-18-2012, 07:39 AM
There's only one realistic scenario in which Moiraine would take the Cairhienin crown:
She and Elayne decide together that's the best option.
That's how I see it, but I don't necessarily think it would happen without Elayne getting a stern talking-to from Moiraine. :p

codetoast
07-19-2012, 02:20 PM
I doubt Mat will complain either.

Ha, Mat would complain, but probably only in his head.

maleshub
07-19-2012, 09:43 PM
She doesn't have to, since Moiraine will be her ally. I doubt Mat will complain either.

Ha, Mat would complain, but probably only in his head.

But that would give Mat an opening out of his agreement with Elayne. If she spreads knowledge of Dragons beyond their agreement, so can he.

Landro
07-20-2012, 01:41 AM
But that would give Mat an opening out of his agreement with Elayne. If she spreads knowledge of Dragons beyond their agreement, so can he.

Why would Mat want to do that? He prefers standing behind them over facing them.

GonzoTheGreat
07-20-2012, 04:07 AM
But that would give Mat an opening out of his agreement with Elayne.
If Mat wants to alter that agreement, then all he has to do is ask the Sea Folk to handle that chore.

David Selig
07-20-2012, 11:26 AM
There's only one realistic scenario in which Moiraine would take the Cairhienin crown:
She and Elayne decide together that's the best option. Then they approach Rand, and have him use the Colavaere precedent to hand the crown to someone else.

Elayne: You know what, Rand, dealing with 3 assassination attempts per week in Cairhien is getting tiresome. Even my belief in my immortality is starting to waiver a little bit.
Rand: Maybe my arrangement for you to get the throne of a country where assassination and betrayal are the favourite activities wasn't such a good idea...

Terez
07-20-2012, 03:43 PM
But that would give Mat an opening out of his agreement with Elayne. If she spreads knowledge of Dragons beyond their agreement, so can he.
Yes, and I'm sure Aludra will be unhappy about it when the time comes. But it's probably going to happen.

I'm still interested to see what Elayne's white-hot iron and axe are going to be about.

maleshub
07-20-2012, 04:45 PM
Why would Mat want to do that? He prefers standing behind them over facing them.

But if knowledge is comprised, he needs another source to make his own Dragons. My hunch is that he'll help Fortuona retake Seanchan with Dragons (or at least Dragons will be involved).

If Mat wants to alter that agreement, then all he has to do is ask the Sea Folk to handle that chore.

Yeah, he could unleash Zaida on Elayne. That would be classic!

Elayne: You know what, Rand, dealing with 3 assassination attempts per week in Cairhien is getting tiresome. Even my belief in my immortality is starting to waiver a little bit.
Rand: Maybe my arrangement for you to get the throne of a country where assassination and betrayal are the favourite activities wasn't such a good idea...

:D If Rand is convinced that he needs Moiraine on the Sun Throne, he can probably make Elayne see reason quite convincingly :p

Yes, and I'm sure Aludra will be unhappy about it when the time comes. But it's probably going to happen.

I'm still interested to see what Elayne's white-hot iron and axe are going to be about.

Aludra won't be happy knowing that her Dragons are in Fortuona's arsenal. But she'll live with it.

BTW, what's the vision with the white-hot iron and axe? I cannot remember it.

Terez
07-20-2012, 05:25 PM
A man's ring of heavy gold floated above Nynaeve's head, and above Elayne's, a red-hot iron and an axe. They meant trouble, she was sure, but it seemed distant, somewhere in the future.
I always mix up white-hot and red-hot. White-hot is Rand (and a bloody hand).

Landro
07-20-2012, 05:40 PM
Could the red-hot iron be the red rod Ter'angreal?
http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/red_rod.html

Terez
07-20-2012, 05:49 PM
It's warm, not hot. And doubtful, since it's not central to her character like the others' strongest viewings were. I suspect it will have something to do with Demandred, when the time comes.

Ivhon
07-20-2012, 07:22 PM
It's warm, not hot. And doubtful, since it's not central to her character like the others' strongest viewings were. I suspect it will have something to do with Demandred, when the time comes.

All loose ends will tie with Demandred. :)

Terez
07-20-2012, 08:08 PM
There is that, and I have a nice sarcastic section on that amusing fan tendency on my Demandred page, but this has more to do with the actual clues we have about what he has been up to, and the overarching themes that tie them together. He is the captain general for the Battle of Caemlyn, and the evidence is that he plans to force Rand to do something irrational and foolish so that he can be killed. The best way to make him do that is to threaten one of his women. And Demandred is the only Forsaken we know of who has taken any interest in her at all (unless you count Rahvin). Murandy, the Black Tower, the Legion of the Dragon...nearly everything he can be tied to focuses on Caemlyn.

maleshub
07-21-2012, 09:33 PM
It's warm, not hot. And doubtful, since it's not central to her character like the others' strongest viewings were. I suspect it will have something to do with Demandred, when the time comes.

I always mix up white-hot and red-hot. White-hot is Rand (and a bloody hand).

Thanks for the clarification. Do you think any of it is linked to Daved Hanlon?

Dom
12-22-2012, 01:57 PM
Terez,

I also believe it would make more sense for Elayne to name Moiraine her regent or viceroy in Cairhien than any scenario where she gives up her crown. Passing the crown would have a high political price, a loss of prestige for Elayne and Houses Trakand. She's taken political steps she can't easily back off from without paying a hefty price.

Moiraine also has no ties to Andor. Ultimately it would make a lot more sense for Elayne to delegate the day to day ruling of Cairhien to Galad and his wife and keep all her royal authority/veto than to organize something like this with Moiraine and Thom. For Berelain it would merely be stepping back into the role.

The problem is Mayene, but so much as be made of the fate and future of Mayene guiding Berelain's actions and decisions I wouldn't be too surprised RJ intended to wipe out Mayene during the LB.

And let's not forget... the western part of Cairhien was once part of Shandalle, the nation where the ancestors of Berelain and Fortuona originate from. Settling the surviving Mayeners there after Mayene itself was wiped out in the LB would be a Return of the Paendrags to their "proper" place. A lot of the cutthroat culture of the Cairhienin in politics seems inherited from the Shandallin and also quite prevalent in Berelain's political culture, and at the Seanchan court itself, mixed with the abstemious, stern culture of the Tovans. After Hawkwing, the people of the western part of the then province (formelly Shandalle) wiped out the nobility of Tova and took control of the whole. The series nor the BWB never revealed if Cairhien was Hawkwing's city or part of Tova originally, but by its style etc., it probably was Tovan and the Paendrag city capital in the Shandallin part of Cairhien has been destroyed (it might have faced Aringill, or located at the point of the triangle, perhaps around the site of that town Mat started his trip south from with the Band as RJ was fond of "symbolic" geogeaphical repetitions like this).

Terez
12-22-2012, 04:51 PM
Terez,

I also believe it would make more sense for Elayne to name Moiraine her regent or viceroy in Cairhien than any scenario where she gives up her crown. Passing the crown would have a high political price, a loss of prestige for Elayne and Houses Trakand. She's taken political steps she can't easily back off from without paying a hefty price.
That's why the thread is entitled 'Moiraine's death is just a ploy in the game'. :) I think it's quite possible for her to back off of this one, and pretend it was always a part of the plan.

Dom
12-22-2012, 06:35 PM
That's why the thread is entitled 'Moiraine's death is just a ploy in the game'. :) I think it's quite possible for her to back off of this one, and pretend it was always a part of the plan.

She could get away with this in Cairhien, if it existed in a vaccuum.

It's in Andor she would pay the hefty political price for giving up the Sun Throne. She's sold her nobility all the advantages of her move to claim the Sun Throne, it's too late to back off that. She can't just claim it was all a ploy to have another take the throne of Cairhien. She can't especially step down in favour of another Aes Sedai, one with no ties to Andor and the sister of the much loathed Taringail Damodred beside. This would all look to any political observer like a huge White Tower power play, made at the expense of both nations. The alliances Elayne made with Ghealdan, Mayene would suddenly look most suspicious to everyone (including Berelain and Alliandre), and you can be sure Tenobia would do everything in her power to wriggle out of the situation Faile has entangled Saldaea in. Faile can't inherit if she's dead. Tenobia won't have forgotten Elayne made her deal with the Bordermen as Elayne Sedai, and that she deceived them. The Bordermen never trusted Elayne.

I don't think Elayne would win any popularity or confidence contest with the "unaligned" rulers right now. She's made an alliance with Mayene, that won't sit well with Tear. If it's revealed her children are from Rand, the Tairens and the Council of Nine will be both fear the implications for the Crown of Swords. Elayne's deal with the Seafolk will have a big economic impact on Far Madding in the long run - the goods from the sea of storms or the borderlands no longer need transit through there. And there's the Hall of the Tower that would have much to call Elayne into account for.. the Bargain, the deal with the Kin in the Amyrlin's back, and she's dithering to take the test and the three Oaths (on purpose, she's conveniently forgotten Min's Viewing nothing would harm her babies before birth that time...). If Elayne was an dutiful AS who heeded WT authority well, the WT would see her as a new Mabriam en Sheered, but right now she'll look more like a new Hawkwing, an Hawkwing who is Aes Sedai and has made a private deal with women the WT considers Wilders.

Elayne is both really powerful and in a precarious position right now. If she's not careful, she could well spark other alliances against hers, and the fact she's Aes Sedai and few rulers would believe the WT didn't approve all her moves could harm the WT's efforts to regain its prestige. I don't think giving up the crown of Cairhien in favour of another sister would help anything. On the contrary, it would appear to confirm the WT is behind it all and is attempting to bring the nations into an AS empire to stand against the Seanchan's Return. It could drive Tear or Illian, where AS aren't much loved, right into the Seanchan's camp post TG.

I think the whole thing about Moiraine and Cairhien is foreshadowing for Elayne's struggles as the first Aes Sedai in eons to hold a throne, which Elayne made worse by immediately expanding her influence widely.

My prediction: the whole thing at the end of TOM with Thom telling Moiraine they'd have to explain to Elayne how her Court-Bard is now a warder is foreshadowing for the fact Elayne will solve this by simply asking Moiraine to become her Aes Sedai advisor, giving her a position near Thom. The Elaida-Thom-Morgase triangle will turn into a Moiraine-Elayne-Thom one. And Moiraine might very well have to patch a few things up between Elayne, Egwene and the WT soon! The WT has a very bad track record when it comes to reacting to others becoming too powerful to their tastes... Bonwhin and Hawkwing, Eldrene and Tetsuan... At least with Egwene there, whatever conflict arising will be very short-lived. With Elaida, Elayne faced a conflict in every way as bad as the one between Hawkwing and the WT.

Terez
12-22-2012, 07:03 PM
She could get away with this in Cairhien, if it existed in a vaccuum.

It's in Andor she would pay the hefty political price for giving up the Sun Throne. She's sold her nobility all the advantages of her move to claim the Sun Throne, it's too late to back off that. She can't just claim it was all a ploy to have another take the throne of Cairhien. She can't especially step down in favour of another Aes Sedai, one with no ties to Andor and the sister of the much loathed Taringail Damodred beside. This would all look to any political observer like a huge White Tower power play, made at the expense of both nations.
Not so sure about that. Moiraine's marriage to Thom is significant, and I don't think Thom's reputation among the nobles is quite what it was with Elaida. There are even rumors still floating around that Taringail was killed by someone close to Morgase, so there's that too; I'm sure someone has an inkling it was Thom. But Moiraine is Elayne's aunt by blood, so the two thrones are still strongly tied together. I'm thinking that the Andorans would really prefer for their Queen to be all their own rather than also dedicated to Cairhien, and that they're not too concerned about the power grab.

Dom
12-22-2012, 07:43 PM
Not so sure about that. Moiraine's marriage to Thom is significant, and I don't think Thom's reputation among the nobles is quite what it was with Elaida. There are even rumors still floating around that Taringail was killed by someone close to Morgase, so there's that too; I'm sure someone has an inkling it was Thom. But Moiraine is Elayne's aunt by blood, so the two thrones are still strongly tied together. I'm thinking that the Andorans would really prefer for their Queen to be all their own rather than also dedicated to Cairhien, and that they're not too concerned about the power grab.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, I guess. We'll pick it up after we got the answers.

I think Thom needs to retire from politics. Having Moiraine take up the role of advisor to Elayne is a way it could happen, a way Thom could simply be what he does best: be an artist and entertainer. Moiraine would not let him interfere. Politics always end up bringing out the worse of Thom. His games in Caemlyn ended up costing him his lover, and all that his artistic talent had brought him of renown and standing, sent him on the road to earn his meals with his art. His brief attempt in Cairhien cost him the life of his lover and drove him to self-destruction. Moiraine has done a great thing for Thom himself by pulling him out of the dangerous mess he was getting himself and Rand into in Tear. Mat pulled him out of games that very soon would have backfired and cost him in Ebou Dar (the Seanchan vultures were starting to circle around him, it was only a matter of time before the Seekers took notice of him).

Moiraine doesn't approve of Thom's methods. Moiraine cut herself from her own House to distance herself from such methods and cutthroat politics. Thom when he plays politics is just as bad and as dark as the Damodreds Moiraine despises. I'm quite sure Moiraine will make sure Thom devotes himself to his art and doesn't entangle himself in politics anymore. He finally married a woman who doesn't need that sort of help from him, while making him a warder will satisfy his drive to protect.

Their whole conversation in Tear was laced with her disapproval. What she admires, what perhaps makes her fall in love, is his loyalty to people he commits himself to.

Terez
12-22-2012, 07:56 PM
Part of the great thing about Moiraine and Thom is that they're both known enough to rule mostly by reputation, particularly in these circumstances. And skilled enough to send potent messages in the beginning. I doubt Thom's methods would be quite the same from a position of power as they were from the position of gleeman or even bard, but Moiraine did tell Thom that a quiet life would kill him. And Moiraine distanced herself from her House because of its dark reputation; she hardly distanced herself from the methods by joining the White Tower.

Dom
12-22-2012, 08:37 PM
she hardly distanced herself from the methods by joining the White Tower.

Then spent her career well away from the WT in a way reminiscent of Cadsuane.

Moiraine could play dirty, but it seems to me she always tried to stay away from all that. I have a hard time imagining Moiraine manipulating people into murdering one another to get rid of them, or assassinating inconvenient people.

She's not naive, and she can be hard and make necessary hard decisions, but as far as we know, it's always all in service of her cause against the Shadow, quite different from doing the same to maintain her power/position. We've seen her reject Lan's hint they should kill some innocent people who knew too much, even though there was a risk they'd talk. She's no Siuan, who coldly suggested the same to Egwene for Nicola and Areina.

I don't think Moiraine would make a bad ruler, but it's obvious she has strictly no interest in the job.

Making her Elayne's advisor would be a fitting continuation of her cause. She would devote herself, near her husband, to the Dragon's legacy, helping the woman who managed to hold together the lands he conquered/briefly ruled and making it last post TG. She couldn't educate and form Rand to be the perfect ruler as she envisioned doing in New Spring - she thought he would need to be an accomplished scholar, diplomat and general. Now she'd get the chance to play exactly this role with Rand's and Elayne's twins, play her part so the "new Covenant of Nations" endure. There would be worse causes for Moiraine to take post TG. Elayne has not given much thoughts to the difficulties a ruler also Aes Sedai would face, and she's beginning to see them. Moiraine has given a lot of thought to those matters. Elayne's capable, but she could use someone like Moiraine, especially the post Rhuidean, post Ghenjei Moiraine.

Terez
12-22-2012, 08:42 PM
Then spent her career well away from the WT in a way reminiscent of Cadsuane.

Moiraine could play dirty, but it seems to me she always tried to stay away from all that. I have a hard time imagining Moiraine manipulating people into murdering one another to get rid of them, or assassinating inconvenient people.
Just after her conversation with Thom:

And power to gain, Moiraine thought. This was his first slip. Aside from deciding on Cairhien over Illian, of course. Alteima would certainly return to Tear on an equal footing with Meilan or Gueyam, ready for more plotting. She would have Rand assassinated before that, if he was not careful. Perhaps an accident could be arranged in Cairhien.
Without a hint of irony.

Dom
12-22-2012, 09:05 PM
Just after her conversation with Thom:


Without a hint of irony.

But all for the Dragon's sake.

In New Spring, she rather said that:

(...) no one has ruled Cairhien for long without being willing to stoop to kidnapping, assassination and worse. My great-grandmother, Carewin, ruled more than fifty years, and the Tower calls her a very successful ruler because Cairhien prospered and had few wars under her, but her name is still used to frighten children. Better to be forgotten than remembered like Carewin Damodred, but even with the Tower behind me, I will have to try matching her if the Hall succeeds." Suddenly, her shoulders slumped, and her face broke close to tears. "What can I do, Siuan? I am caught like a fox in a trap, and I cannot even chew off my own foot to escape."

I'm not convinced Moiraine will be permanently Elayne's advisor, but I'm pretty sure there will be at least one time in AMOL where she will help Elayne. She knows all too well what Elayne is facing and at Elayne's age it made her want to cry.

Elayne's own entourage is probably not yet devoid of DF among the HS or their retinue, and she just added to the mix the Cairhienin High Seats.

And as you know, I believe Demandred and a whole cohort of Murandians are about to enter the mix.

I don't think Jordan decided Elayne would get the most dangerous of his nations to rule right before Tarmon Gai'don began without having an intention to have this play a role during the LB.

I could even see Rand asking Moiraine and Thom to help Elayne manage her little Empire.

Terez
12-22-2012, 09:15 PM
But all for the Dragon's sake.
How is that different from Thom?

In New Spring, she rather said that:I know what she said. I addressed that several times throughout this thread. She was young and innocent at the time, and she has stooped to worse as an Aes Sedai.

PS—Finally remembered where this bit was:

In spite of himself Perrin hunched his shoulders as if she were delivering real blows. "Well, you had better be glad I opened my mouth this time. Simion knows you're Aes Sedai. He wants you to Heal his brother Noam of some sickness. If I hadn't talked to him, he would never have worked up nerve enough to ask, but he might have started talking among his friends."

Lan caught Moiraine's eye, and for a moment they stared at one another. The Warder had the air about him of a wolf about to leap. Finally, Moiraine shook her head. "No," she said.

"As you wish. It is your decision." Lan sounded as if he thought she had made the wrong one, but the tension left him.

Perrin stared at them. "You were thinking of... Simion couldn't tell anyone if he were dead, could he?"

"He will not die by my actions," Moiraine said. "But I cannot, and will not, promise that it will always be so. We must find Rand, and I will not fail in that. Is that spoken plainly enough for you?" Caught in her gaze, Perrin could make no answer. She nodded as if his silence were answer enough.
That makes it clear enough that Lan has killed on Moiraine's behalf before, for mere inconveniences. Siuan suggested the same for Nicola and Areina, and Egwene was horrified, but methinks Moiraine is rather practiced at it.