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WinespringBrother
07-03-2012, 01:00 PM
You can ask any question about anything and someone helpful person will be along to answer it shortly. We know lots of stuff, and we enjoy showing off our knowledge, as anyone who was at JordanCon 2010 knows well.

Basic Rules (as described throughout the Part I Thread):
- Egwene bashing will removed to the Egwene Bashing thread
- questions that develop into discussion will eventually be moved into their own thread - this is at the discretion of mods
ETA - be civil and on-topic, as well

justin9e
07-03-2012, 09:21 PM
Hey everyone, i was just wondering if we ever did find out whose voice it was in the end of TEOTW saying, "IT IS NOT HERE. I WILL TAKE NO PART...". I never could figure out who this was.

Also correct me if i'm wrong which i very well might be, but the black cords and such i dont remember them being mentioned after like half way through the series, is this just something that was phased out .. or did i miss em on my first read?

Terez
07-03-2012, 09:31 PM
It's something about Tel'aran'rhiod (or the area around Shayol Ghul) that lets Rand see the cords, and he hasn't encountered any Forsaken in Tel'aran'rhiod since Rahvin. And we still don't know who the VOICE was; see the relevant tag (http://www.theoryland.com/wheel-of-time-interview-search.php) in the interview database if you're interested in what RJ and Brandon have said about it.

justin9e
07-03-2012, 09:46 PM
ah thanks i think that clears it up a lot about only being able to see it in T'A'R, or possibly by SG, ill have to look out for that on my next re read, thanks!

justin9e
07-03-2012, 10:23 PM
As i reread through FoH and LoC it mentions somewhere in one or both the books that there is skimishes in the borderlands between people i cant remember if its exactly rebellion or just fighting but i remember it was a surprise since borderlanders never fought one another, or at least rarely. Anyways i was just wondering if we ever find anything more out about this?

Ieyasu
07-03-2012, 10:40 PM
As i reread through FoH and LoC it mentions somewhere in one or both the books that there is skimishes in the borderlands between people i cant remember if its exactly rebellion or just fighting but i remember it was a surprise since borderlanders never fought one another, or at least rarely. Anyways i was just wondering if we ever find anything more out about this?

That was the results of Hurin returning and telling the Falme tale... the boarderlanders had minor skirmishes while they sorted out how to deal with Rand... the end result? the 4 monarchs and their huge army dicking around Andor for 5 or 6 books.

justin9e
07-03-2012, 10:59 PM
Ah thanks this fills in some of the holes :)

Terez
07-03-2012, 11:20 PM
That was the results of Hurin returning and telling the Falme tale... the boarderlanders had minor skirmishes while they sorted out how to deal with Rand... the end result? the 4 monarchs and their huge army dicking around Andor for 5 or 6 books.
Brandon said there were some scenes where RJ left a few options, not really very fleshed out in the notes (presumably this was all in RJ's head), and he had to figure out what to do with it. I suspect this was one of them, and I suspect the Ajah Heads plotline was much the same.

Ieyasu
07-04-2012, 12:23 AM
Brandon said there were some scenes where RJ left a few options, not really very fleshed out in the notes (presumably this was all in RJ's head), and he had to figure out what to do with it. I suspect this was one of them, and I suspect the Ajah Heads plotline was much the same.

why would you suspect that about this scene?

I fail to see what those unwritten scenes in AMoL that BS was talking about have to do with an already written scene in several books, along with RJ's QOTW answer.... are you implying there is more to it than them arriving with Rand to the FoM? That we will see even more of the skirmishes that ended 6+ books ago? I am sure the rulers and their armies have more to do, as that arc is not over, however the skirmishes/small scale rebellions were already answered in QOTW:


Interview: Jan 25th, 2005
TOR Questions of the Week Part II (Verbatim)
Week 5 Question
Will Hurin the Sniffer return in any of the remaining books? Please? We miss him. Could you share some insight as to why you decided not to use him after The Great Hunt?

Robert Jordan
He'll turn up again. He hasn't reappeared earlier because the part he had to play was a sidelight to the main story. You should be able to glean some of what he was doing, what effect he and the news he brought was having, from the news that came out of the Borderlands in the books following The Dragon Reborn, though.

The news was the skirmishes and small rebellions, what came out of the borderlands? the 4 monarchs and their armies...

Terez
07-04-2012, 03:34 AM
why would you suspect that about this scene?

I fail to see what those unwritten scenes in AMoL that BS was talking about have to do with an already written scene in several books
I'm not talking about what was already written; I'm talking about the resolution of the plotline, obviously. A reference to your 'dicking around in Andor' comment.

Ishara
07-04-2012, 10:43 AM
Also correct me if i'm wrong which i very well might be, but the black cords and such i dont remember them being mentioned after like half way through the series, is this just something that was phased out .. or did i miss em on my first read?

Tamyrlin has some very interesting (if debunked) theories on the black cords...makes for a fun afternoon of reading. :)

Ieyasu
07-04-2012, 12:02 PM
I'm not talking about what was already written; I'm talking about the resolution of the plotline, obviously. A reference to your 'dicking around in Andor' comment.

dicking around in andor... aka searching ineffectively for Rand.


That plot line was resolved when Rand finally met them and they used the super secret prophecy to ensure he was still good enough to win.

I am still not following if the quote BS said about unfinished scenes in AMoL is relevant here... this plot line is finished. Unless you are suggesting there is more to it? At this point, I think the borderlanders are nothing more than any other army of the land...

Or are you talking about some other BS quote? Please provide the BS quote you think is relevant.

justin9e
07-04-2012, 04:27 PM
hey i was reading again, and i came across that necklace (i think it was a necklace) that Aviendha had received from someone, but i am still not sure who, don't suppose you guys know?
Also remember those two attacks(could be one more in there somewheres) on rand and the Aiel when hes in the waste and when hes traveling out of it, the darkfriends in the attack shout Sammael and the Golden bees or something of the like. yet later on Sammael says that hes done nothing to provoke rand, and later in the convo tells Graendal to tell Demandred (i think) that he knows what hes up to. so i was wondering was it Demandred who send those attacks in order to lure rand to Sammael? or am i miss reading something?

Ieyasu
07-04-2012, 04:42 PM
hey i was reading again, and i came across that necklace (i think it was a necklace) that Aviendha had received from someone, but i am still not sure who, don't suppose you guys know?

The necklace was a gift from Egwene. She wonders who the bracelet was from (Rand), and Rand wonders who the necklace was from...

Later on, Aviendha stops wearing the bracelet after she meets with Elayne and explains the significance of it, vowing not to wear it till Elayne has a gift to match the meaning... She then puts in back on after Rand sleeps with Elayne and leaves her a fresh flower (in the middle of winter)...

Elayne also wonders about the necklace... Aviendha never tells anyone who gave it to her.


Also remember those two attacks(could be one more in there somewheres) on rand and the Aiel when hes in the waste and when hes traveling out of it, the darkfriends in the attack shout Sammael and the Golden bees or something of the like. yet later on Sammael says that hes done nothing to provoke rand, and later in the convo tells Graendal to tell Demandred (i think) that he knows what hes up to. so i was wondering was it Demandred who send those attacks in order to lure rand to Sammael? or am i miss reading something?

It was likely ordered by Sammael at the time, or Lanfear, Graendal, and Rhavin, because at that time they had a plot to attract Rand to attack Sammael where they would be waiting to capture him in a linked circle with Rhavin. Sammael expressed reluctance to not be involved in the circle.

When Sammael says he hasnt done anything to provoke him was later on, after Rand had left the waste, and after he had already killed Rhavin. After that plan had failed and it was clear that Rand was still gunning for him.

The Unreasoner
07-04-2012, 06:33 PM
Elayne also wonders about the necklace... Aviendha never tells anyone who gave it to her.
I always cracked up at those scenes...

But now I remember a question I had when I first read WH...

Did Rand make the lily? I know he tried to make Elayne a flower in TSR, but failed. Is it even possible? I always thought making a fake flower might work, and so is enhancing a real one, but can someone give life to feathers with the Power?

Ieyasu
07-04-2012, 07:15 PM
I always cracked up at those scenes...

It always bugged me that she kept that secret. I suppose it was the cultural affection thing at play, but it never made sense.


But now I remember a question I had when I first read WH...

Did Rand make the lily? I know he tried to make Elayne a flower in TSR, but failed. Is it even possible? I always thought making a fake flower might work, and so is enhancing a real one, but can someone give life to feathers with the Power?

I figured he traveled somewhere and picked it in the past, but in light of recent books, he could have just went outside and one popped up for him because hes one with the land and all...

He made the majhere in Tear a flower prior to his failed attempt with the feathers/Elayne. I never thought that it was alive per se, just looked like a flower. I never thought he might have somehow created a real flower with the power for the one he left in Andor.

GonzoTheGreat
07-05-2012, 01:59 AM
"Nothing has changed," the scarred man growled. "Least of all, my trust for you. I will be part of the link, or it ends now."
The golden-haired woman threw back her head and laughed. "Poor man," she said mockingly, waving a beringed hand at him. "Do you think he would not notice that you were linked? He has a teacher, remember. A poor one, but not a complete fool. Next you will ask to include enough of those Black Ajah children to take the circle beyond thirteen, so you or Rahvin must have control."
I'm wondering: how could Rand notice that another man was linked?
Is there any indication of anyone else in the series noticing something like that?

Women notice it when other women are linked because they see the glow around the whole group, of course. But there's no similar give away for men, that I know of.

yks 6nnetu hing
07-05-2012, 03:19 AM
It always bugged me that she kept that secret. I suppose it was the cultural affection thing at play, but it never made sense.
I may misremember but has anyone actually asked her where she got it? If Rand got all jealous about it I wouldn't tell him anything either. But did Elayne flat out ask about it? It may just be a case of idle wondering on the one part and simply not actively telling everyone "Oh this little thing? Yeah, the now Amyrlin gave it to me. We are good friends, you know"

WinespringBrother
07-05-2012, 08:05 AM
I'm wondering: how could Rand notice that another man was linked?
Is there any indication of anyone else in the series noticing something like that?

Women notice it when other women are linked because they see the glow around the whole group, of course. But there's no similar give away for men, that I know of.

Rand may notice any weaves cast by Sammael using both saidin and saidar are different than those cast with just saidin. Or he may just be observant and notice subtle changes in behavior. Or it could be more of Graendal's mind games.

GonzoTheGreat
07-05-2012, 09:16 AM
Rand may notice any weaves cast by Sammael using both saidin and saidar are different than those cast with just saidin.
At which point it would be a bit late, though, wouldn't it?
I mean, if he only notices after he's lost the battle and is shielded, what good would it do him?

Or he may just be observant and notice subtle changes in behavior.
That does assume that there is anything to notice in time. And it also assumes that Rand would be in a position to notice those things before the fight is really fully started, cause after that it would be a bit late. As you may remember, when he did go after Sammael, they did exchange fire for a while without actually seeing each other at all.

Or it could be more of Graendal's mind games.
Which would only work if you assume that Sammael doesn't know whether or not it would be possible to detect that a man is linked to others. If he knew that it could not be detected, then he wouldn't be bothered by this (im-)possibility.

But if it is possible, then I'm wondering whether there's any indication in the books of it. And, of course, I can supply the answer, come to think of it:
Grady stopped suddenly and spun toward the Wise Ones' tents.
"What?" Perrin asked urgently, scanning the camp. He couldn't see anything unusual.
Grady smiled. "I think they've managed it." He started into the Aiel camp, ignoring the glares several Maidens gave him. They might very well have tossed him out, Asha'man or no, if Perrin hadn't been there.
Neald, Perrin thought. He's been working with the Aes Sedai to figure out circles. If Grady had seen something in the weaves . . .
Don't know why I didn't think of this earlier.

SauceyBlueConfetti
07-05-2012, 10:01 AM
I may misremember but has anyone actually asked her where she got it? If Rand got all jealous about it I wouldn't tell him anything either. But did Elayne flat out ask about it? It may just be a case of idle wondering on the one part and simply not actively telling everyone "Oh this little thing? Yeah, the now Amyrlin gave it to me. We are good friends, you know"

Other than Rand, I don't think anyone ever asked. The interesting part is it came from Kadere, the Darkfriend peddler. Of course not everything he traded with the Aiel could be troublesome, but I would think Lanfear/Keille would be interested in anything Rand's girl from the Two Rivers bought. Ultimately, I am sure it was just another way to advance the Avi/Rand plot line at that point, nothing sinister.

Terez
07-05-2012, 12:21 PM
Rand asked, and Aviendha said she'd gotten it from a friend.

Ieyasu
07-05-2012, 01:43 PM
I may misremember but has anyone actually asked her where she got it? If Rand got all jealous about it I wouldn't tell him anything either. But did Elayne flat out ask about it? It may just be a case of idle wondering on the one part and simply not actively telling everyone "Oh this little thing? Yeah, the now Amyrlin gave it to me. We are good friends, you know"

I am not certain if Elayne asked or not, just that Elayne internally thought about it.

justin9e
07-05-2012, 04:12 PM
So i was reading the part where rand was talking to that philosopher guy in his school and they were saying that as the wheel turns and all that it eventually has to get back to the point where the bore was not longer drilled into (or atleast patched so well that the people who drill into the bore cant tell its been patched, so an age can come like the AoL where they first drilled into it). anyways i was just thinking that if the wheel keeps turning and what not, hasent the dark one already won? He gets an infinite number of tries to break free, and one slip on the side of the Light and he'll break free. Assuming someone dosent kill the Dark One of course. so do you guys ever feel like its all for naught, cuz in an age or two the Dark One will get his chance all over again.
Also any one have any ideas on how its possible to seal the bore to the point where Aes Seadi in the AoL we know couldn't detect it. (the seal or patch, people in past ages have made.) or do i not fully understand the concept?

The Unreasoner
07-05-2012, 04:51 PM
At which point it would be a bit late, though, wouldn't it?
I mean, if he only notices after he's lost the battle and is shielded, what good would it do him?


That does assume that there is anything to notice in time. And it also assumes that Rand would be in a position to notice those things before the fight is really fully started, cause after that it would be a bit late. As you may remember, when he did go after Sammael, they did exchange fire for a while without actually seeing each other at all.


Which would only work if you assume that Sammael doesn't know whether or not it would be possible to detect that a man is linked to others. If he knew that it could not be detected, then he wouldn't be bothered by this (im-)possibility.

But if it is possible, then I'm wondering whether there's any indication in the books of it. And, of course, I can supply the answer, come to think of it:

Don't know why I didn't think of this earlier.
Here's another relevant quote (from With the Choedan Kal):
Suddenly he saw people off to the right ahead of him through the trees, and sheltered behind a rough gray trunk. A bald-headed old man with a fringe of white hair was limping along between two women, one of them beautiful in a wild way, the other stunning. What were they doing in these woods? Who were they? Friends of al’Thor, or just people in the wrong place at the wrong time? He hesitated to kill them, whoever they were. Any use of the Power would warn al’Thor. He would have to wait until they passed. The old man’s head was turning as if he were searching for something among the trees, but Demandred doubted a fellow that decrepit could see very far.


Abruptly the old man stopped and thrust out his hand straight toward Demandred, and Demandred found himself frantically fending off a net of saidin that struck his warding much harder than it should have, as hard as his own spinning would. That tottering old man was an Asha’man! And at least one of the women must be what passed for Aes Sedai in this time, and joined with the fellow in a ring.

Of course, here he doesn't sense it until later. Nothing obvious, at least. In fact, he may have just come to the right conclusion with faulty reasoning (if he doesn't know Flinn, how would he know how strong Flinn is?). And not alot of time to react to the info.

But I think it's safe to assume the possibility, if only because Graendal acknowledged one (and Sammaeal was there to call BS). And Rand probably would have had enough time to run and hide/escape, much like one of the Fisher's two sides.

Weird Harold
07-05-2012, 05:48 PM
Also any one have any ideas on how its possible to seal the bore to the point where Aes Seadi in the AoL we know couldn't detect it. (the seal or patch, people in past ages have made.) or do i not fully understand the concept?

First, you have to remember that it will be a very, very, very, long time before the Wheel Turns back to the end of a new Second Age (AOL.) More than enough time for any scars in the Pattern to Heal. (Or, weather away to nothing.)

Second, It took most of the AOL for Channeling to become ubiquitous enough that a further source of power was needed. It is entirely possible that the "thinness in the Pattern" was detectible throughout the Second Age, but nobody had any reason to look for it; or possibly lacked the knowledge and skill required to find it if they did look.

Finally, The WOT is a largely predestinationist cosmology. Nobody noticed the "Thinness in the Pattern" because the person predestined to discover it wasn't spun out until it was time for it to be discovered.

That final point is also the answer to your first question; Ishamael/Moridin belives it is all pointless because the DO will eventually win, but re-read Rand's Epiphany on Dragonmount for the opposing view.

justin9e
07-05-2012, 08:02 PM
hey thanks, yeah i am looking forward to AMoL cant wait to re read it. one more question, when Nynaeve and Elyane are in Salidar and there is a bubble of evil, they link with Anyia and told her that it was a bubble of evil but she didnt listen. then afterwards she listened and Nynaeve said that she seemed disapointed that is wasn't one of the forsaken or darkfriends. she also said something stirred in the back of her head, but she was much to tired to think about it. i am wondering you guys knew what this is all about. was it just that Anyia was glad to think that they held up against a forsaken? or was there more to this than that?

The Unreasoner
07-05-2012, 08:58 PM
hey thanks, yeah i am looking forward to AMoL cant wait to re read it. one more question, when Nynaeve and Elyane are in Salidar and there is a bubble of evil, they link with Anyia and told her that it was a bubble of evil but she didnt listen. then afterwards she listened and Nynaeve said that she seemed disapointed that is wasn't one of the forsaken or darkfriends. she also said something stirred in the back of her head, but she was much to tired to think about it. i am wondering you guys knew what this is all about. was it just that Anyia was glad to think that they held up against a forsaken? or was there more to this than that?
They wanted it to be the Forsaken because it would aid their political agenda regarding the Black Tower. Large circles to fight strong channelers is a good argument. Large circles to fight bubbles of evil is less compelling (like Cadsuane declining the link in the ACoS fog)

Terez
07-06-2012, 12:15 AM
They wanted it to be the Forsaken because it would aid their political agenda regarding the Black Tower.
The Black Tower barely existed at that time; Rand took Taim to the farm 8 days previous. They wanted to believe it was the Forsaken because bubbles of evil were evidence that the Dark One himself was touching the world. The Forsaken are, in this case, the lesser evil, and preferable to the truth. Also, Anaiya probably seemed disappointed because she wanted to believe that, in the case of a Forsaken attack, they were sufficiently prepared. They were very proud of themselves for that plan.

The Unreasoner
07-06-2012, 12:55 AM
The Black Tower barely existed at that time; Rand took Taim to the farm 8 days previous. They wanted to believe it was the Forsaken because bubbles of evil were evidence that the Dark One himself was touching the world. The Forsaken are, in this case, the lesser evil, and preferable to the truth. Also, Anaiya probably seemed disappointed because she wanted to believe that, in the case of a Forsaken attack, they were sufficiently prepared. They were very proud of themselves for that plan.
Against the advice of counsel, I respond with Rand and the BT. Feeling secure is an esoteric goal, convinving the Hall to strongly ally with Rand (and later, the BT) was more specific (and likely the stronger motivator).

ETA:
And Rand's proclamation predated Taim's arrival

Terez
07-06-2012, 01:05 AM
Against the advice of counsel
You should listen to your counsel.

I respond with Rand and the BT.It doesn't matter because they had no plans for the Black Tower at that time, seeing as how it barely existed. And you said nothing about Rand in your previous post.

And Rand's proclamation predated Taim's arrivalAnd yet it had nothing to do with their plan for the Forsaken, nor did it have anything to do with Anaiya's disappointment.

The Unreasoner
07-06-2012, 01:32 AM
It doesn't matter because they had no plans for the Black Tower at that time, seeing as how it barely existed. And you said nothing about Rand in your previous post.
Well, there's a simple explanation: I was mistaken on the timing. However, I think political agendas regarding Rand (later expanded to the BT) are more compelling for evidence than a 'sense of security'.

Admitting fault...
You should try it some time.

ETA:
And if you don't think that some AS used the threat of the Forsaken (eventually strengthened by the Cleansing) to forward their agendas of becoming closer to the Dragon, you are out of your mind.

Terez
07-06-2012, 01:37 AM
Well, there's a simple explanation: I was mistaken on the timing. However, I think political agendas regarding Rand (later expanded to the BT) are more compelling for evidence than a 'sense of security'.
It might make more sense to you, but there is not a single scrap of evidence to support it.

Admitting fault...
You should try it some time.
I do it all the time, but only when I'm wrong. You resist it even when you're clearly wrong, usually by trying to pretend that you said something other than what you actually said, or trying to pretend like whoever you're arguing with said something different than what they actually said.

The Unreasoner
07-06-2012, 01:52 AM
Whatever.

I'm tired of talking to you.

Congrats on not screwing up the TEotW Voice question this time around.

Terez
07-06-2012, 02:06 AM
Congrats on being a troll. You're welcome to your opinion on the voice, but it's honestly baffling that you keep bringing it up like it's some kind of notch in your belt.

utinbaho
07-06-2012, 08:09 AM
What is the duration and frequency of Rand and Min sexing it up? So is Min infertile? Seeing as Rand has extremely potent sperm, I find it hard to believe the Min haven't even conceived yet.

Ishara
07-06-2012, 08:11 AM
Heartleaf tea, my friend. Min is taking precautions. Although it does raise the question of OP-related contraceptive/ barriers, doesn't it? ;)

WinespringBrother
07-06-2012, 09:02 AM
Heartleaf tea, my friend. Min is taking precautions. Although it does raise the question of OP-related contraceptive/ barriers, doesn't it? ;)

Good point - since in general we've seen that most Aes Sedai sneer at the use of herbs (save Moiraine, as far as I remember), what is Gabrelle doing, for example, since there is no indication she is expecting.

Ishara
07-06-2012, 12:02 PM
I'm thinking a little wall of Air, put somewhere useful?

yks 6nnetu hing
07-06-2012, 12:12 PM
I'm thinking a little wall of Air, out somewhere useful?mmmhmmm...

Can't do a gateway as you would with dirty diapers. Edges are sharp.

Zombie Sammael
07-06-2012, 01:10 PM
Actually, it's just like the trick for ignoring heat and cold. :eek:

SauceyBlueConfetti
07-06-2012, 01:13 PM
ummm...OWWWW!!!

I recall reading a book years ago about time travel, etc where a girl trades places with her great grandmother, it was called The Mirror. In that book the main character is trying to figure out contraception, and a bordello owner or someone shows her how to use a penny sort of as an IUD/Diaphragm. As a 15 year old I remember thinking...hmmmmmmm...regarding birth control in "the olden days" of the 1800-early 1900 Americas. I would equate that time to Randland in many ways. So yeah, maybe there was another unusual use for the Tar Valon coins ;) If you don't believe in herbs, you must believe in gold :D

Tomp
07-06-2012, 01:18 PM
I was wondering about the slowing of age.

Is it determined by how strong (potential) a channeler is,
or how much of the power the channeler uses.

frenchie
07-06-2012, 01:24 PM
I was wondering about the slowing of age.

Is it determined by how strong (potential) a channeler is,
or how much of the power the channeler uses.

Ask and you shall receive:

Interview: Oct 13th, 2005
KOD Signing Report - Allen Bryan (Paraphrased)
Question
Does the rate of slowing depend on your strength in the Power?
Robert Jordan
Yes, basically; you age at 1/X your normal rate, with X being dependent up to a point on Power strength. The Power acts as a natural rejuvenator on you; even at the point of death you won't look or feel worse than a normal 65-year-old.
Allen Bryan
(RJ had to hem and haw a good bit to avoid revealing that slowing != the Ageless Look—there were several spoiler people in the audience, including one who was working on Book Six at the moment.)

Tomp
07-06-2012, 01:35 PM
So, just to be clear.
A channeler that stops using the one power still benefit from the slowing in the same extent as a frequent user of the one power.
(when they have the same potential)

Is that correct?

Zombie Sammael
07-06-2012, 01:46 PM
So, just to be clear.
A channeler that stops using the one power still benefit from the slowing in the same extent as a frequent user of the one power.
(when they have the same potential)

Is that correct?

He says the Power acts as a natural rejuvenator, so presumably you'd have to actually use it. Note that severed people, both stilled and gentled, don't generally live very long because they just lose the will to live. That to me says they lose the rejuvenating effect as well.

yks 6nnetu hing
07-06-2012, 02:09 PM
He says the Power acts as a natural rejuvenator, so presumably you'd have to actually use it. Note that severed people, both stilled and gentled, don't generally live very long because they just lose the will to live. That to me says they lose the rejuvenating effect as well.

I don't know about that... Presumably the Slowing is unlocked when a person starts channeling (case in point: sul'dam have normal lifespans even though they work with power on a daily basis). However, we see Morgase: her ability in the Power is really negligible yet it's mentioned that she looks considerably younger than she ought to. Remember the trouble she had to even channel that little trickle back in the Aiel camp? with that kind of trouble, and her insecurity about even attempting to embrace the Source I'd think that she hadn't channeled (almost?) at all since leaving the Tower, yet the Slowing continued.

A similar example would be Sorilea but she's much stronger than Morgase in that she at least can embrace the Power whenever she wants to.

which makes me think how weird it is that being able to embrace the power would be determined by how strong you are instead of it being a mind trick same as ignoring heat/cold. Because either that, or *somebody* deliberately sabotaged Morgase's study, right?

Zombie Sammael
07-06-2012, 02:14 PM
I don't know about that... Presumably the Slowing is unlocked when a person starts channeling (case in point: sul'dam have normal lifespans even though they work with power on a daily basis). However, we see Morgase: her ability in the Power is really negligible yet it's mentioned that she looks considerably younger than she ought to. Remember the trouble she had to even channel that little trickle back in the Aiel camp? with that kind of trouble, and her insecurity about even attempting to embrace the Source I'd think that she hadn't channeled (almost?) at all since leaving the Tower, yet the Slowing continued.

A similar example would be Sorilea but she's much stronger than Morgase in that she at least can embrace the Power whenever she wants to.

which makes me think how weird it is that being able to embrace the power would be determined by how strong you are instead of it being a mind trick same as ignoring heat/cold. Because either that, or *somebody* deliberately sabotaged Morgase's study, right?

Sul'dam don't actually touch the source themselves, though. As for Morgase, she might just be young looking. Some people are. Especially since RJ said channelling ability was key to the prolongation of life, so she can't be getting much benefit from channelling.

frenchie
07-06-2012, 02:47 PM
Morgase has slowed.


Interview: Oct 4th, 2005
Robert Jordan's Blog: ONE MORE TIME
Robert Jordan
For Gyrehead, Foretelling is not related to strength. The weakest possible channeler could Foretell as strongly as Elaida or Nicola, or perhaps even more so, depending entirely on the strength of his or her Talent for Foretelling.

The three Red Sitters were sent into exile in 985 NE under Marith Jaen.

Yes, Morgase has slowed, and that is exactly why there is so much emphasis on her looking only ten years older than Perrin when she has children the ages of Elayne and Gawyn.

Regarding the percentage of women who could test for the shawl, it would be 62.5% of the bellcurve. I'll leave the maths to you for an idle moment. The question doesn't really apply to men, since the Black Tower accepts anyone who can learn to channel, but if the White Tower limits were applied, it would be roughly 65.4% of the bellcurve. Although, considering the effectiveness question, they should probably set it at the same 62.5%. Again, the maths are all yours. Regarding the levels of male strength, while the weakest man and the weakest woman would be roughly equivalent, you might say that there are several levels of male strength on top of the female levels. Remember to integrate this with what I've said elsewhere about effectiveness, though.

yks 6nnetu hing
07-06-2012, 02:51 PM
Sul'dam don't actually touch the source themselves, though. that's exactly what I just said, except the Power has to flow through them (eh... with their permission, anyways) in a way. Some develop a way of seeing the weaves even, without actually channeling anything at all. point being, they're proof that handling power or objects of loads of Power does not Slow people.
As for Morgase, she might just be young looking. Some people are. Especially since RJ said channelling ability was key to the prolongation of life, so she can't be getting much benefit from channelling.
it's a possibility. Good Life (=staying out of the Sun) + Slowing might have a better effect than just slowing. I seem to remember somewhere that strength in Power also determines when people start Slowing - hence Nynaeve's contant mumbling about looking in her late teens and nobody taking her seriously while she was actually in her mid-twenties.


Which makes me think of yet ANOTHER frigging timing problem in Avi's trip through the Pillars, she sees her daughter Padra, 17 years after the last battle (she said, last time they fought, I assumed she meant the Last Battle but it may be vague on purpose) this, considering that she's been channeling since birth should make her look about 5 years old but she's not.

Zombie Sammael
07-06-2012, 02:59 PM
Which makes me think of yet ANOTHER frigging timing problem in Avi's trip through the Pillars, she sees her daughter Padra, 17 years after the last battle (she said, last time they fought, I assumed she meant the Last Battle but it may be vague on purpose) this, considering that she's been channeling since birth should make her look about 5 years old but she's not.

There's so much that's odd about Padra and the rest that their non-slowing isn't really a problem. Being permanently connected to the OP and channelling since childhood are so different from the usual run of things that they can explain away the lack of slowing. Maybe they'll not slow, but stop completely when they reach full adulthood, for example.

yks 6nnetu hing
07-06-2012, 03:22 PM
There's so much that's odd about Padra and the rest that their non-slowing isn't really a problem. Being permanently connected to the OP and channelling since childhood are so different from the usual run of things that they can explain away the lack of slowing. Maybe they'll not slow, but stop completely when they reach full adulthood, for example.

then how do you explain them being dead later on and I'm assuming from fairly natural causes as the next person doesn't comment on it at all?

that part of the book was just... not thought out with Jordan's usual meticulous way. the main point is fine, it's just the details that screw eveything up :( it's like the corners don't really meet at proper angles and your eye can't follow the lines if you take my meaning ;)

anyways, back to Slowing and usage of OP. My personal opinion is that actually using the Power won't matter. Take Moiraine: her ability is now much less but she has that sa'angreal that makes her even stronger than she was before. What'll happen to her? I'd hazard a guess that because her ability is less, she'll die younger than she would have otherwise (that is, if she lives though the LB); her using an aid for channeling will not lengthen her lifespan. But, it's all air I'm spinning, could be that I'm totally wrong.

At least Siuan and Leaine are simple: they stopped Slowing altogether when they were Stilled and then started again sort of from a blank page just at a slower pace.

Tomp
07-06-2012, 04:46 PM
At least Siuan and Leaine are simple: they stopped Slowing altogether when they were Stilled and then started again sort of from a blank page just at a slower pace.

Did you mean that they age more slowly than normal people, after being healed and retaken the oaths, but not as slowly as they originally did.
Then I agree with you.

Edit:
The question is also would they live longer in a weaker one power strength without the oaths
than original strength with oaths.

utinbaho
07-06-2012, 04:57 PM
Did Jordan ever mention why he doesn't name characters the same? There's a thing called family name and place of birth.

There isn't a Mat of Arad Doman or something. Hell I find it hard to believe that there is no parent who named their kid Jain or Arthur.

Terez
07-06-2012, 05:15 PM
It happens more among the minor characters. And just because we haven't met any Mats doesn't mean there aren't any. From a storytelling perspective, it makes it easier for the reader to keep characters straight if they don't have the same name. Also, just because we have a convention of naming children after famous people doesn't mean that Randlanders necessarily should. The Aiel do it, though; Melaine says she plans to name her girls Min and Egwene, IIRC.

yks 6nnetu hing
07-06-2012, 05:17 PM
Did Jordan ever mention why he doesn't name characters the same? There's a thing called family name and place of birth.

There isn't a Mat of Arad Doman or something. Hell I find it hard to believe that there is no parent who named their kid Jain or Arthur.

Lol, I think that's a common feature in most Fantasy. Tolkien doesn't have any recurring names either. A bit weird but there you are.

Zombie Sammael
07-06-2012, 05:34 PM
Lol, I think that's a common feature in most Fantasy. Tolkien doesn't have any recurring names either. A bit weird but there you are.

Actually, he does. Check the genealogies; there's at least one dwarf name that's shared, and at least one elf, though I can't bring either name to mind at the moment. I know they're there, though.

rand
07-06-2012, 09:59 PM
There actually are a whole bunch of characters with the same names, but, like Terez said, they're all minor. There's lots of Hads, I think three Huans, and (according to eWoT) no less than six Jaims. There's probably a bunch more I'm missing too.

And then there's the ever-popular Luca...

GonzoTheGreat
07-07-2012, 02:53 AM
And of course both Lan's horse and Perrin's wife are called Mandarb.

Tomp
07-07-2012, 08:07 AM
And of course both Lan's horse and Perrin's wife are called Mandarb.

Yes but one of those two is an ass, not a horse. :D

maleshub
07-07-2012, 03:13 PM
And of course both Lan's horse and Perrin's wife are called Mandarb.

Naughty! Are you accusing "wolfbrother" of what I think you're accusing him of? :eek:

GonzoTheGreat
07-08-2012, 04:07 AM
Naughty! Are you accusing "wolfbrother" of what I think you're accusing him of? :eek:
I just reported the facts. I wasn't being judgmental here.

Laras
07-09-2012, 12:39 AM
If Dick stabs Harry to death, Tom stabs Dick to death and then balefires Dick's body, does Harry come back to life?

Terez
07-09-2012, 12:45 AM
Nope, it only works if they're still alive; once they're dead the thread is no longer connected to the body.

Laras
07-09-2012, 12:48 AM
Will Sharina live just as long as every other channeller/Aes Sedai?

Weird Harold
07-09-2012, 01:09 AM
If Dick stabs Harry to death, Tom stabs Dick to death and then balefires Dick's body, does Harry come back to life?
No

Terez
07-09-2012, 01:09 AM
We do know (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=255#22) that she will have some youth restored to her, so it would seem logical.

Weird Harold
07-09-2012, 01:11 AM
Will Sharina live just as long as every other channeller/Aes Sedai?
yes.

The Unreasoner
07-09-2012, 02:57 AM
I'm thinking a little wall of Air, put somewhere useful?
A killing ward, like Rand used in SL, attuned to semihumans.

Spermicide without the mess.

Random Man
07-09-2012, 02:58 AM
Will Sharina live just as long as every other channeller/Aes Sedai?

She will in all probablility outlive the average Aes Sedai, since longevity is in part tied to strength in the Power. Indeed, as Terez pointed out she's already apparently experiencing a "youthening."

The Unreasoner
07-09-2012, 03:00 AM
yes.
What does that mean, though? She'll live as long as the average AS (because she's already lived a few years even Saidar can't bring back (*some* youth restored aside))? Or she'll live as long as a bound AS with her strength (none come to mind)?

GonzoTheGreat
07-09-2012, 03:10 AM
After the Great Lord has defeated the so called Dragon, time will end, and thus all AS will cease living too. Obvious, really, isn't it?

Weird Harold
07-09-2012, 05:13 AM
What does that mean, though? She'll live as long as the average AS (because she's already lived a few years even Saidar can't bring back (*some* youth restored aside))? Or she'll live as long as a bound AS with her strength (none come to mind)?
http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=255#22

utinbaho
07-09-2012, 06:43 AM
i remember Tuon commenting on Mat letting go of a poisonous snake. Are there any mention of snakes as omens by Seanchan?

GonzoTheGreat
07-09-2012, 07:28 AM
While not finding actual omens related to snakes, I did come across the following:
Running a green-gloved hand across the top of her head, she sighed. “Toy, Toy,” she murmured, resettling the cowl of her cloak. “How many children’s tales do you believe? Do you believe that if you sleep on Old Hob’s Hill under a full moon, the snakes will give you true answers to three questions, or that foxes steal people’s skins and take the nourishment from food so you can starve to death while eating your fill?”
Putting on a smile took effort. “I don’t think I ever heard either one of those.” Making his voice amused required effort, too. What were the odds of her mentioning snakes giving true answers, which the Aelfinn did after a fashion, in the same breath with foxes stealing skins? He was pretty sure that the Eelfinn did. and made leather from it. But it was Old Hob that nearly made him flinch. The other was likely just ta’veren twisting at the world. She certainly knew nothing about him and the snakes or the foxes. In Shandalle, the land where Artur Hawkwing had been born, though, Old Hob. Caisen Hob, had been another name for the Dark One. The Aelfinn and the Eelfinn both surely deserved to be connected to the Dark One, yet that was hardly anything he wanted to think on when he had his own connection to the bloody foxes. And to the snakes, too? That possibility was enough to sour his stomach.
So now I'm wondering: what kind of fool goes sleeping in the open on the slopes of Shayol Ghul, just out of curiosity, to see what would happen? And then keeps it up until he gets a night with a full moon, too?
That does seem to be the way to start a tale like this, after all.

yks 6nnetu hing
07-09-2012, 07:36 AM
i remember Tuon commenting on Mat letting go of a poisonous snake. Are there any mention of snakes as omens by Seanchan?

there's this:

TITLE: Knife of Dreams

CHAPTER: 10 - A Village in Shiota

Running a green-gloved hand across the top of her head, she sighed. "Toy, Toy," she murmured, resettling the cowl of her cloak. "How many children's tales do you believe? Do you believe that if you sleep on Old Hob's Hill under a full moon, the snakes will give you true answers to three questions, or that foxes steal people's skins and take the nourishment from food so you can starve to death while eating your fill?" Putting on a smile took effort. "I don't think I ever heard either one of those." Making his voice amused required effort, too.
What were the odds of her mentioning snakes giving true answers, which the Aelfinn did after a fashion, in the same breath with foxes stealing skins? He was pretty sure that the Eelfinn did, and made leather from it. But it was Old Hob that nearly made him flinch. The other was likely just ta'veren twisting at the world. She certainly knew nothing about him and the snakes or the foxes. In Shandalle, the land where Artur Hawkwing had been born, though, Old Hob, Caisen Hob, had been another name for the Dark One.


Though she does say she had a Foretelling regarding his fox-signet-ring. So she might have had something about the snakes as well. I cna't find anything more right now though.

utinbaho
07-09-2012, 10:19 PM
Verin's letter to Rand is about Mattin Stephanos situation right? Who is the representative of Amadicia? Galad or someone else?

The Unreasoner
07-09-2012, 10:59 PM
http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=255#22
I had already read that...not nearly specific enough. All he really said is that she'll slow (which has a rate determined by strength 'to a point') and get some youth back. So, she's already lost a handful of years, and is starting out more or less a third of a lifetime ahead. My guess is she'll live 67-75% of Nynaeve's lifetime.
Verin's letter to Rand is about Mattin Stephanos situation right? Who is the representative of Amadicia? Galad or someone else?
I don't think Verin was limited to telling Rand one piece of information.

And Galad has more or less abandoned Amadicia. Not that any Seanchan nations are represented at the FoM anyway.

utinbaho
07-09-2012, 11:30 PM
And Galad has more or less abandoned Amadicia. Not that any Seanchan nations are represented at the FoM anyway.


Amathera is in Tar Valon, so it seems she'll be in FoM, I'm guessing Beslan would be coming with Mat, that leaves Amadicia. Im kinda guessing Egwene will be left with no support after thinking everyone will follow her. Or did I forget some things?

The Unreasoner
07-10-2012, 12:23 AM
Amathera is in Tar Valon, so it seems she'll be in FoM, I'm guessing Beslan would be coming with Mat, that leaves Amadicia. Im kinda guessing Egwene will be left with no support after thinking everyone will follow her. Or did I forget some things?
'Thera' is in no condition to represent anyone, nor does she have the right anymore. Beslan coming with Mat is a theory, but no more than that. Certainly the timing seems to be off if Moiraine gets her way.

Terez
07-10-2012, 01:09 AM
Amathera is in Tar Valon, so it seems she'll be in FoM, I'm guessing Beslan would be coming with Mat, that leaves Amadicia. Im kinda guessing Egwene will be left with no support after thinking everyone will follow her. Or did I forget some things?
Tarabon has a new panarch, obviously. And Ailron is dead; he was killed at Jeramel.

The Unreasoner
07-10-2012, 01:19 AM
Tarabon has a new panarch, obviously. And Ailron is dead; he was killed at Jeramel.
Made this a while ago for another thread that didn't pan out...

http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/picture.php?albumid=8&pictureid=122

Terez
07-10-2012, 01:22 AM
I'm not even arguing with you.

The Unreasoner
07-10-2012, 01:26 AM
I'm not even arguing with you.
that utinbaho is wrong?

In any case, probably as close to it as we're going to get (though I do wonder what the hell you thought I meant by Amathera not having the right).

And (s)he didn't seem to ever suspect Ailron. We don't need to assume everyone is an idiot.

Terez
07-10-2012, 01:39 AM
Trolling again already?

Zombie Sammael
07-10-2012, 02:52 AM
Trolling again already?

I think he was agreeing with you. Which, as he says, is one of the last great signs before Tarmon Gai'don begins.

Terez
07-10-2012, 03:20 AM
I think he was agreeing with you.
He has a strange way of going about it, though, doesn't he? :)

Which, as he says, is one of the last great signs before Tarmon Gai'don begins.
Can I ride Moridin?

The Unreasoner
07-10-2012, 04:41 AM
I think he was agreeing with you. Which, as he says, is one of the last great signs before Tarmon Gai'don begins.
lol...
I think a small part of the post-apocalyptic confusion may come from me reading 'arguing' as 'agreeing'. My bad.

Not sure what the tone was though. It could be read as dismissive or conciliatory.

Terez
07-10-2012, 04:48 AM
lol...
I think a small part of the post-apocalyptic confusion may come from me reading 'arguing' as 'agreeing'. My bad.
Probably because I read 'agreeing' as 'arguing'. A morning moment.

The Unreasoner
07-10-2012, 05:00 AM
Probably because I read 'agreeing' as 'arguing'. A morning moment.
lmfao...

dibs on the red horse.

Weird Harold
07-10-2012, 05:05 AM
...she's already lost a handful of years, and is starting out more or less a third of a lifetime ahead. My guess is she'll live 67-75% of Nynaeve's lifetime.

Sharina may have started out older, but Slowing Rate is determined solely by Potential Strength, and Sharina has a tremendous advantage in strength over almost every Aes Sedai -- She is "possibly as strong as a woman can be." Nyneave's 30% advantage in starting slowing is going to be offset by Sharina's 25-35% advantage in slowing rate.

If Sharina takes the Three Oaths, she'll easily hit the 300 year cap on lifespan the Oaths impose. If she doesn't, then she'll have a life expectancy of around 700 years. She might not be a spry and vivacious as someone who started slowing at sixteen to twenty, but they're all going to look fifty to seventy at the end of their lives.

Tomp
07-10-2012, 07:32 AM
Just had a realisation that you might have had a while ago.

This is not a question really, just not own thread worthy.

Demandred and Logain are very similar. The difference is that Logain accepted his place as second after the dragon.
Demandred never could settle for less than being the best and finishing first.

GonzoTheGreat
07-10-2012, 07:47 AM
Demandred and Logain are very similar. The difference is that Logain accepted his place as second after the dragon.
Demandred never could settle for less than being the best and finishing first.
Well, duh:
"You know, I saw a man once who will cause more trouble than I ever did. Maybe it was the Dragon Reborn; I don’t know. It was when they took me through Caemlyn after I was captured. He was far away, but I saw a... a glow, and I knew he’d shake the world. Caged as I was, I couldn’t help laughing."

maleshub
07-10-2012, 02:53 PM
Just had a realisation that you might have had a while ago.

This is not a question really, just not own thread worthy.

Demandred and Logain are very similar. The difference is that Logain accepted his place as second after the dragon.
Demandred never could settle for less than being the best and finishing first.

And that is the difference between Logain and Taim. And the glory above all men goes to the man who accepted his place as second to the Dragon. How fitting!

greatwolf
07-10-2012, 04:17 PM
If Sharina takes the Three Oaths, she'll easily hit the 300 year cap on lifespan the Oaths impose. If she doesn't, then she'll have a life expectancy of around 700 years. She might not be a spry and vivacious as someone who started slowing at sixteen to twenty, but they're all going to look fifty to seventy at the end of their lives.

The "cap" may be due to other (environmental) factors rather than just the oaths. The aol is a very different age from the current medically. Plus, would the strongest woman have an equal life expectancy to the strongest man given what RJ said about effectiveness in women balancing male strengths? It shouldn't matter, but...

The Unreasoner
07-10-2012, 04:28 PM
Sharina may have started out older, but Slowing Rate is determined solely by Potential Strength, and Sharina has a tremendous advantage in strength over almost every Aes Sedai -- She is "possibly as strong as a woman can be." Nyneave's 30% advantage in starting slowing is going to be offset by Sharina's 25-35% advantage in slowing rate.

If Sharina takes the Three Oaths, she'll easily hit the 300 year cap on lifespan the Oaths impose. If she doesn't, then she'll have a life expectancy of around 700 years. She might not be a spry and vivacious as someone who started slowing at sixteen to twenty, but they're all going to look fifty to seventy at the end of their lives.
The slowing rate is discussed by Jordan:
Question

Does the rate of slowing depend on your strength in the Power?
Robert Jordan

Yes, basically; you age at 1/X your normal rate, with X being dependent up to a point on Power strength. The Power acts as a natural rejuvenator on you; even at the point of death you won't look or feel worse than a normal 65-year-old.

Bold mine.

If Sharina is as strong as a woman can be, she is probably well past the threshold necessary to hit the slowing limit. But Nynaeve may be just barely past the threshold, so she and Sharina could plausibly slow at the same rate (if they weren't bound).

Laras
07-11-2012, 12:35 AM
If an Aes Sedai is released from the Oath Rod, will they live as long as if they had never been bound?

Weird Harold
07-11-2012, 01:06 AM
If an Aes Sedai is released from the Oath Rod, will they live as long as if they had never been bound?

Unknown; probably.

The "cap" may be due to other (environmental) factors rather than just the oaths.

Not according to RJ; he said "the three oaths put a cap on lifespan."

Other factors -- environment, genetics, OP strength, etc -- may influnce or limit lifespan, but the Oaths put a cap of three-hundred years or so that overrides any other factors which might allow a longer lifespan.

PS:
would the strongest woman have an equal life expectancy to the strongest man

Given the historical tendency for women to outlive men I'd guess that a channeler like Lanfear or Sharina would outlive Moridin, Rand, Demandred, et al -- barring any unnatural causes of death, like crossing the Dragon Reborn or overdosing on the True Power. :D

Weird Harold
07-11-2012, 01:12 AM
But Nynaeve may be just barely past the threshold, so she and Sharina could plausibly slow at the same rate (if they weren't bound).

Nyneave isn't as strong as you seem to think she is -- especially in relation to Sharina's potential. See any of the past discussions on relative strength/ strength ranking.

Being "the strongest novice in 300 years" isn't really that much of an accomplishment, given the generally low strength level of established AS. As the series progressed, several channelers stronger than Nyneave are identified.

fionwe1987
07-11-2012, 01:35 AM
Nyneave isn't as strong as you seem to think she is -- especially in relation to Sharina's potential. See any of the past discussions on relative strength/ strength ranking.
She is. She's exactly as strong as most people think she is, which is extremely strong, but not the strongest.
Being "the strongest novice in 300 years" isn't really that much of an accomplishment, given the generally low strength level of established AS. As the series progressed, several channelers stronger than Nyneave are identified.
Its 3000, not 300. And remember that we're only told that Sharina has a potential even greater than Nynaeve's, but get no statements about her potential being much greater, or anything like that.

Also, its worth noting that only six women are stronger than Nynaeve. Making it very likely that she's in the second or third tier of channelers, and no lower.

Weird Harold
07-11-2012, 02:26 AM
She is. She's exactly as strong as most people think she is, which is extremely strong, but not the strongest.

"Most People" is not the same as "Unreasoner." What you cited was an opinion on Unreasoner's belief, not the general consensus.


Its 3000, not 300. And remember that we're only told that Sharina has a potential even greater than Nynaeve's, but get no statements about her potential being much greater, or anything like that.

Like I said, go find the old discussions. The refernce to Sharina being, potentially, as strong as it is possible for a woman, doesn't use those exact words, so it is difficult to find -- it has been found, though, IIRC.

ETA:
Glaring, Tiana pursed her lips stubbornly, emphasizing her dimple again. You could almost forget she had worn the shawl for over thirty years and think her a novice herself. “As long as I am Mistress of Novices, the decision on whether to send a girl away is mine,” she said heatedly, “and I do not intend to lose a girl of Nicola’s potential.” Nicola would be very strong in the Power, one day. “Or Sharina’s,” she added with a grimace, hands smoothing her skirts in irritation. Sharina’s potential was nothing short of remarkable, far beyond anyone in living memory except for Nynaeve, and ahead of Nynaeve as well. Some thought she might become as strong as it was possible to be, though that was only speculation. “If Nicola has been bothering you, Mother, I will see to her.”

At the very least, that puts Sharina in the very top rank of women.

/ETA

As for Nyneave's historical ranking, she is the strongest since Cadsuane, which is right at 300 years. I don't recall her being touted as the strongest since the breaking, or even since the founding of the White Tower -- something like 2,900 years.

Terez
07-11-2012, 03:01 AM
Like I said, go find the old discussions.
fionwe is from Wotmania where, as I'm sure you know, they are much more obsessed with this subject than we are.

The refernce to Sharina being, potentially, as strong as it is possible for a woman, doesn't use those exact words, so it is difficult to find -- it has been found, though, IIRC.
Yes, but that doesn't mean that Nynaeve is very far below her.

As for Nyneave's historical ranking, she is the strongest since Cadsuane, which is right at 300 years. I don't recall her being touted as the strongest since the breaking, or even since the founding of the White Tower -- something like 2,900 years.
Elayne was the strongest in 1000 years, and that's as much as we know.

GonzoTheGreat
07-11-2012, 04:20 AM
Elayne was the strongest in 1000 years, and that's as much as we know.
Not quite:
Cadsuane scowled, a fearsome sight. "No one has come to the Tower in a thousand years who could match me. No one to match Meilyn or Kerene in almost six hundred. A thousand years ago, there would have been fifty sisters or more who stood higher than this child. In another hundred years, though, she'll stand in the first rank. Oh, someone stronger may be found in that time, but there won't be fifty, and there may be none. We dwindle."
If Cadsuane spoke the truth, then there hasn't been an AS who was stronger than she is for almost a thousand years, or even longer (depending on when the last one who could match her started). If Nynaeve is significantly stronger than Cadsuane, then it is indeed quite possible that there hasn't been a stronger AS since the founding of the WT.

Terez
07-11-2012, 05:09 AM
Nynaeve is stronger than Elayne, so it doesn't make a difference; Cadsuane's words simply repeat that same truth, and add a little bit about weaker strengths that don't apply to Nynaeve. In other words, we have no idea how long it's been since they had someone as strong as Nynaeve, except that it's been at least 1000 years. Like I said.

Weiramon
07-11-2012, 01:58 PM
Aye, let's not go making a bonfire out of a candle.

The Unreasoner
07-11-2012, 02:16 PM
Aye, let's not go making a bonfire out of a candle.
That could have just been figurative.

And the issue isn't 'how strong is Nynaeve?', it is 'is Nynaeve's strength above the minimum needed to attain maximum slowing?'

Frankly, if the minimum were much higher, the 'to a point' would have been superfluous.

justin9e
07-12-2012, 01:03 PM
So as i read the ending of LoC at Dumai Wells i remember thinking at one point for some reason they couldn't use Traveling ( probally they didnt know the area well enough) and i remember thinking to myself how come they didnt use Skimming. and as i was reading today when Rand returned to Cairhien after the battle at DW, they were going to enter the city by traveling instead of walking in ( the city had been usurped) but they didnt know the terrain well enough so they went in by foot. now i could be wrong but i though to Skim you didnt need to know the place where you were well in order to use it. if so how come no one ever uses it or thinks of it even?

Terez
07-12-2012, 01:05 PM
Skimming is probably the single largest source of inconsistency in the series. Does that help? :)

PS—I love your sig quote. Particularly because it didn't work.

MountainBadger
07-13-2012, 11:39 AM
I am going through my re-read and I just noticed something in LoC. In Ch 52, Elayne recalls seeing two women try to stab Adeleas in the Rahad. Supposedly, Adeleas lifts the two with the power and "stuffs" them through a second story window. But two references earlier in LoC make is seem like this shouldn't be possible. After being healed Suian comments that lifting something is one of the hardest things to do with the power and she, at her peak, was only able to lift three times her weight. Then on the way to Ebou Dar, Vandene and Adeleas acknowledge that they are not strong enough for some of the new discoveries.

Do we know if this is a continuity error or was this subterfuge on Adeleas' part? Thanks!

GonzoTheGreat
07-13-2012, 12:13 PM
Maybe Siuan is heavier than she looks. Alternatively, it is possible that Adeleas was taking a big risk, getting closer to burning herself out than advisable.

Tomp
07-13-2012, 01:14 PM
Adeleas maybe wouldn't be able to lift both with one weave.
I'd say that Adeleas weaves two separate weaves, one for each person she throws.
Adeleas would only need to be at about half of Siuan's old strength for doing that, I think.

The Unreasoner
07-13-2012, 02:30 PM
Adeleas maybe wouldn't be able to lift both with one weave.
I'd say that Adeleas weaves two separate weaves, one for each person she throws.
Adeleas would only need to be at about half of Siuan's old strength for doing that, I think.
Except that it is more than twice as hard to divide a single flow into two than it is to just weave the one flow.

So even one weave at double strength would be less demanding than two weaves at normal, (and both would be less demanding than four at half strength).

Tomp
07-13-2012, 03:41 PM
Except that it is more than twice as hard to divide a single flow into two than it is to just weave the one flow.

So even one weave at double strength would be less demanding than two weaves at normal, (and both would be less demanding than four at half strength).

More difficult yes.

Look at the scene when Egwene is a "captive" in the tower (KoD chpt 24) and must as a novice perform simple tricks.
She has been forced to drink forkroot tea so she can barely channel.
Despite that she weaves dozens of separate weaves. I think it was fourteen different coloured balls and rings of fire and air, at the same time.


I would argue that it's technically more than twice as difficult to weave two weaves compared to one.
But each of those weaves are as strong individually as her single weave would be.

Multiple weaves are taxing on the skill, not the potency (at least not as much).

Laras
07-13-2012, 08:58 PM
Is it possible for anyone to learn to enter Tel'aran'rhiod without a ter'angreal, or are all the Forsaken special?

Terez
07-13-2012, 09:42 PM
Is it possible for anyone to learn to enter Tel'aran'rhiod without a ter'angreal, or are all the Forsaken special?
See here (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=605#2).

utinbaho
07-13-2012, 10:48 PM
How old is Morgase by FoM?

Weird Harold
07-13-2012, 11:03 PM
... lifting something is one of the hardest things to do with the power and she, at her peak, was only able to lift three times her weight.

Adeleas lifted two women -- approximate twice her weight. The passage doesn't specify that she lifted them simultaneously, so she could have restrained one with a relatively low-powered weave and lifted the other with most of her strength before lifting the second.

Then on the way to Ebou Dar, Vandene and Adeleas acknowledge that they are not strong enough for some of the new discoveries.

Aes Sedai-Speak :D

Mat was in no mood to talk about being ta’veren. He was never in that mood, but certainly not now. "What’s this nonsense I hear about five or six days to reach Ebou Dar?" The old Warder straightened, staring hard, and Mat reevaluated him as well; stringy, but hard as old roots. It made no difference in his tone. "You can open a gateway in sight of Ebou Dar. We aren’t any bloody army to scare anyone, and as for popping out of air, you’re Aes Sedai. People expect you to pop out of air and walk through walls."


"I fear you are speaking to the wrong one of us," Vandene said. He looked at the other white-haired woman, who shook her head as Vandene said, "Nor Adeleas, I fear. It appears we are not strong enough for some of the new things."

Note that Vandene did not say that Traveling was one of the things they were too weak to perform; She could have been talking about any of the "New Things."

One other point: lifting someone with flows of air only requires strength in weaving air; overall strength could be only moderate and still be able to lift extraordinary weights with air.

GonzoTheGreat
07-14-2012, 03:50 AM
I suspect that a lot of Windfinders could do things with Air that would have been beyond Siuan's ability even before she was Stilled.

finnssss
07-14-2012, 04:34 AM
How old is Morgase by FoM?

She went to the WT at 14.
She returned just before her 16th birthday to lay claim to the Lion Throne after Tigraine's disappearance in 972NE.
She won the Throne and married Taringail 2 years later in about 974NE.

She is roughly about 44 years old.

utinbaho
07-14-2012, 10:16 PM
Will Elaviendreda actually sleep with Nuli?

Rand al'Fain
07-15-2012, 02:23 AM
Is Tam Al'Thor the descendent of King Aemon of Manetheren? Probably is, but I just want to make sure.

Weird Harold
07-15-2012, 02:47 AM
Is Tam Al'Thor the descendent of King Aemon of Manetheren? Probably is, but I just want to make sure.
There's no evidence in either direction. Everyone in the Two Rivers can probably claim some degree of descent from Aemon, but it's doubtful that Tam can claim any closer descent than anyone else.

Rand al'Fain
07-15-2012, 11:09 AM
There's no evidence in either direction. Everyone in the Two Rivers can probably claim some degree of descent from Aemon, but it's doubtful that Tam can claim any closer descent than anyone else.

Well, according to the WOT wikia Aemon's name is;
Aemon al Caar al Thorin

And I figure that Tam's last name has been slightly changed (as most names do over long periods of time) to al'Thor. Just something that has had my attention since the very first time I read the book Eye of the World.

maleshub
07-15-2012, 07:52 PM
If anyone has a strong lineage back to Aemon, it is probably Matrim Cauthon. He seems to have the strongest Manetheren blood of the gang. His Old Tongue is manifested strongest among them; and his battle chant is Aemon's even before the trips to the "snakes and foxes."

My question ... Do we know where Kari al'Thor is from. I just read TEotW and noticed that her eyes were described as "grey." My first confused thought ... She might be an Aiel gai'shain; but of course that isn't possible under ji'e'toh; even if Tam managed to touch her unarmed during the Aiel War. And there is no indication that she had reddish hair.

Weird Harold
07-15-2012, 09:01 PM
My question ... Do we know where Kari al'Thor is from. I just read TEotW and noticed that her eyes were described as "grey." ... And there is no indication that she had reddish hair.

Kari was Andoran. Probably related to the royal lines, but distantly enough that she was only a lady's maid or lady-in-waiting. My impression was that she was a "strawberry blonde" but I don't recall where that impression came from.

frenchie
07-15-2012, 09:10 PM
Kari was from Caemlyn, and was a Merchant's daughter.

finnssss
07-15-2012, 09:27 PM
Well, according to the WOT wikia Aemon's name is;
Aemon al Caar al Thorin

And I figure that Tam's last name has been slightly changed (as most names do over long periods of time) to al'Thor. Just something that has had my attention since the very first time I read the book Eye of the World.

Caar Thorin
Cauthon

Either way, it's pretty clear at this point that Mat has the closest ties to Aemon by blood, soul or both.

maleshub
07-15-2012, 09:32 PM
Kari was Andoran. Probably related to the royal lines, but distantly enough that she was only a lady's maid or lady-in-waiting. My impression was that she was a "strawberry blonde" but I don't recall where that impression came from.

Kari was from Caemlyn, and was a Merchant's daughter.

Thanks for the responses and information :)

Random Man
07-16-2012, 12:04 AM
There's no evidence in either direction. Everyone in the Two Rivers can probably claim some degree of descent from Aemon, but it's doubtful that Tam can claim any closer descent than anyone else.

This, plus it would be unsurprising if many of Manetherans' survivors gave their children first names in memory of their fallen sovereigns. So once the practice of being named "son of ___" faded into carrying a patronymic, there's likely be more than a few Al Caars, Al Thorins and other permutations (like 'Cauthon,' or 'Aybara' maybe once being 'Al Bara,' and who the heck knows who 'Vere' or 'Meara' or 'Azar' were). This would get even fuzzier two thousand years down the road. With a largely enclosed breeding pool, it's likely ancestral claims would be impossible to determine.

Laras
07-16-2012, 12:20 AM
Somewhere in CoT Nicola Foretells the Dragon Reborn doing nine impossible things. Have any of them been done yet?

P.S. I probably should get the relevant quote, but I'm too lazy. Anyway, what's the point of having all these amazing brains here if nobody uses them?

Weird Harold
07-16-2012, 12:49 AM
Somewhere in CoT Nicola Foretells the Dragon Reborn doing nine impossible things. Have any of them been done yet?

That was a sarcastic comment on the volume and suspect nature of what Ariena was reporting about Nicola's Foretellings. There is no Foretelling detailing the nine impossible things the Dragon Reborn does every day before breakfast.

Laras
07-16-2012, 01:03 AM
It was in the same sentence as the Amyrlin imprisoned, so I thought that it might be true.

Kimon
07-16-2012, 01:11 AM
If anyone has a strong lineage back to Aemon, it is probably Matrim Cauthon. He seems to have the strongest Manetheren blood of the gang. His Old Tongue is manifested strongest among them; and his battle chant is Aemon's even before the trips to the "snakes and foxes."



There is also a link to the al Caar portion of Aemon's name. Likely the both the al'Caars and the al'Thors can claim descent from Aemon. Mat and the rest of the Cauthons certainly have Old Blood, but that need not mean that he has the most direct lineage back to Aemon, especially considering that we have two local cognomens that maintain parts of Aemon's own name.

Weird Harold
07-16-2012, 01:46 AM
It was in the same sentence as the Amyrlin imprisoned, so I thought that it might be true.

ETA: Which Amyrlin's imprisonment is Foretold? Egwene? Elaida? some successor in the future entirly unrelated to current events?


Here is the reference in context:

... once Janya had the bit between her teeth, getting a word in edgewise was no easy matter. "Nicola, on the other hand, causes all sorts of problems, Mother," the Brown rushed on. "Ever since we found out she has the Foretelling, she's been Foretelling two or three times a day, to hear her tell it. Or rather, to hear Areina tell it. Nicola is smart enough to know everyone is aware she can't remember what she says when she Foretells, but Areina always seems to be there to hear and remember, and help her interpret. Some are the sort of thing anyone in the camp with half a brain and a credulous nature might think of ... battles with the Seanchan or the Asha'man, an Amyrlin imprisoned, the Dragon Reborn doing nine impossible things, visions that might be Tarmon Gai'don or a bilious stomach ... and the rest all just happen to indicate that Nicola ought to be allowed to go faster with her lessons. She's always too greedy for that. I think even most of the other novices have stopped believing her."

[Emphasis mine]

Any "foretelling" by Nicola has to be considered suspect unless it happens 'onscreen,' and especially anything reported by Ariena and relayed second or third hand has to be considered garbled to the point of uselessness.

The whole list of predictions is characterized as "... the sort of thing anyone ... with half a brain and a credulous nature might think of...." RJ wasn't above including a few nuggets of truth as dismissed theories; Ishamael's periodic 40 year furloughs, for example. But in order for that literary trick to work, there has to be a falsehood or two in the list to obscure the truthiness of the nuggets. A typical sarcastic hyperbole, like "Nine impossible things before breakfast," is well withing the limits of the Three Oaths, and serves only as an "etc,etc,etc" ending to a list of suspect Foretellings.

GonzoTheGreat
07-16-2012, 03:03 AM
ETA: Which Amyrlin's imprisonment is Foretold? Egwene? Elaida?
Well, the Pattern has graciously seen fit to accommodate Nicola by having both Egwene and Elaida imprisoned, though not by the same captors.

SauceyBlueConfetti
07-16-2012, 08:13 AM
Kari was Andoran. Probably related to the royal lines, but distantly enough that she was only a lady's maid or lady-in-waiting. My impression was that she was a "strawberry blonde" but I don't recall where that impression came from.

TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 16 - The Wisdom
Listen to me. Tam al'Thor ran away seeking adventure when he was a boy no older than you. I can just remember when he came back to Emond's Field, a grown man with a red-haired, outlander wife and a babe in swaddling clothes.

Red head :)

Ishara
07-16-2012, 08:28 AM
Thanks for the responses and information :)

Check out the Character of the Week thread on Tigraine (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5670) for more...

Kimon
07-16-2012, 10:25 AM
This, plus it would be unsurprising if many of Manetherans' survivors gave their children first names in memory of their fallen sovereigns. So once the practice of being named "son of ___" faded into carrying a patronymic, there's likely be more than a few Al Caars, Al Thorins and other permutations (like 'Cauthon,' or 'Aybara' maybe once being 'Al Bara,' and who the heck knows who 'Vere' or 'Meara' or 'Azar' were). This would get even fuzzier two thousand years down the road. With a largely enclosed breeding pool, it's likely ancestral claims would be impossible to determine.

The "ay" seems to have originally meant "daughter of", just as the "al" meant "son of". Hence the last king of Manetheren was Aemon al Caar al Thorin - Aemon the son of Caar, the son of Thorin. His wife however was Eldrene ay Ellan ay Carlan. We actually have another local family that possesses this name, albeit with one letter altered - the Ayellins. The Aybara gens thus were likely descended from some noblewoman who was the daughter of Bara, and that name, Aybara, became solidified as their cognomen.

maleshub
07-16-2012, 04:25 PM
Check out the Character of the Week thread on Tigraine (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5670) for more...

Thanks for the link. That was a very interesting reading. Was this question of Kari's background and link to Tigraine ever directed at Team Jordan or the late master himself?

Ishara
07-17-2012, 06:52 AM
A quick search of the interview database tells us...

Interview: Nov 19th, 2009
TGS Signing Report - Samadai (Paraphrased)

Samadai: RobMRobM had me ask three questions. Will we find out where Morgase learned the Two Rivers speech? Will Tam end up with a wife? Was Kari al'Thor related to Morgase?

Brandon Sanderson: RobM you get the triple RAFO award.


So, maybe? Or maybe not. ;)

Tomp
07-17-2012, 04:04 PM
Which characters apart from our 3 boys are ta'veren?

I suppose anyone mentioned or referred to in prophecies are ta'veren in some form or another. (Dreaming not inluded)

If that's the case then the following should be ta'veren (number indicate strength of ta'vereness)
Rand 3
Mat 2
Perrin 2
Lanfear/Cyndane 2
Ishamael/Moridin 2
Tuon 2
Tigraine 2
Slayer 1
Broken wolf 1 (if it's not Rand)
Min 1
Avienda 1
Elayne 1

Maybe there's an official list somewhere which you could direct me to.

Davian93
07-17-2012, 04:09 PM
Only the big 3 are ta'veren...the rest are just caught in their web.

Tomp
07-17-2012, 05:28 PM
Bair is a bit of a mystery to me.

She's the oldest wise one of the whole Shaarad clan though she can't channel.
She's outlived three husbands, I guess they all died in fighting.


She's always in the background togeher with more colourful wise ones who steals the spotlight.
I just realised, on my third readthrough of tGS, that she was present when Cadsuane showed Sorilea the box with the domination band.

In LoC Rand hopes that wise ones who can channel would help him after he's been taken prisoner. The wise ones he wishes for includes Bair, but why would he since she can't channel.

It wouldn't surprise me if she's a DF.
She may have a very weak channeling ability that she's manage to somehow conceal (no idea how).
Bair may have shown someone how to open Cadsuane's secret box, or maybe she herself was the one who took the domination band from it.

I have no proof for anything of this.
My fascination with Bair started when I read the box scene today. Brandon places her there, but the rest of the exchange is just between Cadsuane and Sorilea. Bair is present the whole time but she says nothing and they don't say anything to her.

After reading Brandons other books this smells very fishy to me, he dangles Sorilea in front of your nose and then slams you with Bair.

Any thoughts?

Terez
07-17-2012, 05:32 PM
It's unlikely, since the foreshadowing previous to TGS implicates Sorilea (on many levels), and aside from that, Occam's Razor suggests that the one who can actually channel is the one most likely to have betrayed Cadsuane.

Landro
07-17-2012, 05:56 PM
Eureka!

Bair is Demandred in disguise!

maleshub
07-17-2012, 06:16 PM
Eureka!

Bair is Demandred in disguise!

Lol ... Demandred dreams of his last husband during younger days.

utinbaho
07-18-2012, 08:13 AM
what would happen if an aes sedai bonded an aes sedai. if reds hate men why don't they bond each other?

Terez
07-18-2012, 08:22 AM
what would happen if an aes sedai bonded an aes sedai.
The gender thing would probably be the same as the Elayne/Birgitte bond, and the control issues would probably be similar to those with Aes Sedai and Asha'man. Alanna couldn't compel Rand with the bond, presumably because he is much stronger than she is. And while Merise, for example, keeps a tight rein on Narishma, there's nothing to suggest she uses the bond to compel him.

Ishara
07-18-2012, 09:00 AM
Is her inability to compel him due to his strength, or simply due to his ability to channel?

yks 6nnetu hing
07-18-2012, 09:09 AM
Is her inability to compel him due to his strength, or simply due to his ability to channel?

I always thought it was because he was ta'veren

Terez
07-18-2012, 09:09 AM
The way Alanna describes it makes it seem due to his strength.

GonzoTheGreat
07-18-2012, 09:32 AM
The way Alanna describes it makes it seem due to his strength.
Which, of course, is not all that informative.

He's strong when it comes to channeling.
He is strong as a ta'veren.
He is strong when it comes to being stubborn (which undoubtedly also helps in fending off Compulsion).
And he is probably also physically strong; wielding a sword properly takes some brute force (as well as a bit of skill, admittedly).

Terez
07-18-2012, 09:58 AM
Which, of course, is not all that informative.

He's strong when it comes to channeling.
He is strong as a ta'veren.
I dislike the ta'veren explanation because it's vague and it would make more sense for this to have something to do with the Power itself, and further, strength. Perhaps any channeler would be aware that the bonder was using the bond to compel him (Rand might have fought it off instinctively), but it makes sense that someone who is stronger in the Power (especially by a great degree) should still be able to control another channeler through the bond.

He is strong when it comes to being stubborn (which undoubtedly also helps in fending off Compulsion).Again, he seems to have fought it off without even realizing he was doing so, which isn't the normal way of resisting Compulsion.

And he is probably also physically strong; wielding a sword properly takes some brute force (as well as a bit of skill, admittedly).It's hard to see how this would have anything to do with it.

More to the point, Logain et al. don't have any problem using the bond to compel Aes Sedai.

Davian93
07-18-2012, 10:29 AM
I think it has more to do with simply being able to channel that makes the bond inoperative for the Warder bond. Clearly it could be tweaked as Logain shows with the Ashaman bond but that was more simple compulsion.

GonzoTheGreat
07-18-2012, 10:34 AM
More to the point, Logain et al. don't have any problem using the bond to compel Aes Sedai.
First, they use a different bond, though how different is unclear. They made it up based on stories, and we all know how accurate those stories are, by now.
Second, they added the "extra bit" in order to make the AS behave.

I still wonder how they came up with that extra bit, why anyone got away with experimentation in that direction, and how many test Aes Sedai they'd used to make it actually worked.

Terez
07-18-2012, 10:38 AM
First, they use a different bond, though how different is unclear. They made it up based on stories, and we all know how accurate those stories are, by now.
Second, they added the "extra bit" in order to make the AS behave.
Sure, but it shows that a bond can be used to compel another channeler, and the extra bit simply removes the need to tweak.

TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 30 - What the Oath Rod Can Do

"The Warder bond could be modified slightly," Maigan said. "As it is, you can make the man do as you wish with a little tweaking, but the need to tweak could be removed quite easily."

Davian93
07-18-2012, 10:45 AM
Yet Rand shows that it definitely doesnt work as long as the Male is holding the OP at the time. Maybe there is a point where the woman can control the male channeler but once the male is strong enough, it becomes impossible.

Weird Harold
07-18-2012, 11:03 AM
More to the point, Logain et al. don't have any problem using the bond to compel Aes Sedai.

That's probably because the Asha'man "Spouse Bond" isn't the same as a "Warder Bond" -- it may have been reverse engineered from popular descriptions of the Warder Bond, but it had an entirely different purpose behind the design.

Weird Harold
07-18-2012, 11:09 AM
I still wonder how they came up with that extra bit, why anyone got away with experimentation in that direction, and how many test Aes Sedai they'd used to make it actually worked.

The Asha'man Spouse Bond was originally developed to keep in contact with Wives; I suspect that reaffirming wedding vows figured into the development -- although I have no idea whether traditional WOT wedding vows conform to "Love, Honor, and Obey."

Ishara
07-18-2012, 12:15 PM
I dislike the ta'veren explanation because it's vague and it would make more sense for this to have something to do with the Power itself, and further, strength. Perhaps any channeler would be aware that the bonder was using the bond to compel him (Rand might have fought it off instinctively), but it makes sense that someone who is stronger in the Power (especially by a great degree) should still be able to control another channeler through the bond.


Plus, being ta'veren isn't a permanent thing. So, if your ta'vereness fades, does using the bond to compel suddenly work? I would think not.

And as for wedding vows:

I, (his name), do pledge you my love (her name) for as long as I live. What I posess in the world I give to you. I will keep and hold you,succor and tend you, protect and shelter you, for all the days of my life. I am yours, forever and always.


These are the only ones we've seen, and you'll note they do NOT say obey. ;)

Davian93
07-18-2012, 12:31 PM
These are the only ones we've seen, and you'll note they do NOT say obey.

Given the highly matriarchal societies we see in Randland, I highly doubt there is any such vow for them.

SauceyBlueConfetti
07-18-2012, 12:42 PM
Nynaeve and Lan's vows are likely a bit different in regards to OBEY :D They were married under the matriarchal SeaFolk vows but someone is always IN CHARGE if they wish to require it.

utinbaho
07-18-2012, 12:53 PM
Is there any comprehensive list in the intraweb on Mat's saying about women? They are funny as hell and I would love to read them in succession.

Weird Harold
07-18-2012, 02:01 PM
And as for wedding vows:


These are the only ones we've seen, and you'll note they do NOT say obey. ;)

Surprisingly, it has been long enough since I last had any direct contact with wedding vows that even searching for "traditional wedding vows" turns up the 'modern' (ca 1960) unisex wording. I am used to the pre-1960's gender specific historical wedding vows as the "default" wedding vows.


The original* wedding vows, as printed in The Booke of Common Prayer, are: (http://www.allheartweddings.com/the_history_of_wedding_vows.html)

[* ca 1549 through about 1970--WH]

Groom: I,____, take thee,_____, to be my wedded Wife, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death us do part, according to God's holy ordinance.

Bride: I,_____, take thee,_____, to be my wedded Husband, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love, cherish, and to obey, till death us do part, according to God's holy ordinance.

GonzoTheGreat
07-19-2012, 03:14 AM
Nynaeve and Lan's vows are likely a bit different in regards to OBEY :D They were married under the matriarchal SeaFolk vows but someone is always IN CHARGE if they wish to require it.
Not necessarily. If they have the exact same rank in public life, then they'll have to actually talk and agree about things in the bedroom too.

Ishara
07-19-2012, 06:36 AM
Heaven forfend! LOL

rand
07-22-2012, 11:03 PM
A few questions about people's ages:

It was a mentioned a little while back in this thread that Morgase is in her mid-forties. When Perrin meets her in tPoD, he thinks she looks about 30. This isn't odd because of slowing, but what does seem odd is that Perrin also thinks Tallanvor is only about 4 or 5 years younger than she is. Presumably this is mentioned as a joke about Morgase constantly calling Tallanvor young. However, this would mean that Morgase is right about being substantially older than Tallanvor, or that Perrin is very bad a judging people's ages.

And that latter option may have something to do with my second question. Throughout tDR, Perrin estimates Faile's age to be about his own. But when Faile herself states her age in LoC, she says she is the same age as Ewan Fingar, making her be about 14 or 15. Is she really that young?

Kimon
07-23-2012, 01:12 AM
A few questions about people's ages:

It was a mentioned a little while back in this thread that Morgase is in her mid-forties. When Perrin meets her in tPoD, he thinks she looks about 30. This isn't odd because of slowing, but what does seem odd is that Perrin also thinks Tallanvor is only about 4 or 5 years younger than she is. Presumably this is mentioned as a joke about Morgase constantly calling Tallanvor young. However, this would mean that Morgase is right about being substantially older than Tallanvor, or that Perrin is very bad a judging people's ages.

And that latter option may have something to do with my second question. Throughout tDR, Perrin estimates Faile's age to be about his own. But when Faile herself states her age in LoC, she says she is the same age as Ewan Fingar, making her be about 14 or 15. Is she really that young?

Well, along with Faile's comment about her age being the same as Ewin's we also have this, also from the LoC Prologue:

In the Two Rivers, girls did not braid their hair until the Women's Circle said they were old enough to marry, whether that was fifteen or thirty, though few went beyond twenty. In fact, Rhea was a good five years older than Faile, her hair four years braided...

That unfortunately still does not give us an exact age for either Faile or Rhea, but if Rhea first braided her hair at fifteen, that would make her nineteen, and Faile fourteen.

We also have this nugget from Davram as to her age from LoC Ch 46:

Zarine still isn't old enough to marry without her mother's permission...

Fourteen or fifteen seems a distinct possibility.

David Selig
07-23-2012, 04:15 AM
Faile's age compared to Ewin Finngar is corrected in later editions and the ebook versions of LoC. Now the passage reads "Ewin not really that much younger than she herself."

As for Tallanvor, we have this:

“He is young, Lini. Young enough to be my son.”

Lini snorted, and this time there was nothing delicate about it. “He has a few years on Galad, and Galad is too old to be yours. You were playing with dolls when Tallanvor was born, and thinking babes came the same way as dolls.”"

Davian93
07-23-2012, 01:24 PM
Faile is likely around 17 when she marries Perrin...FWIW. That would fit in with all the "a couple years younger than X" and "a few years older than Y" references we get.

Tallanvor is likely in his early 30s.

rand
07-23-2012, 02:20 PM
I didn't know the "same age as Ewin" thing was corrected, so it seems that Faile probably is about 17-18.

As for Tallanvor, I'm guessing Perrin's estimate of him being 25 is just a mistake as well. As for what his real age is... Mid thirties seems like it would be right, but there are a wide range of ages given for him in the books. Perrin thinks he's 25, but if he really is only 4-5 years younger than Morgase that would make him about 40. And the Galad comment would seem to put him in his mid thirties. So I guess mid thirties is a good average of all that...

Kimon
07-23-2012, 04:04 PM
I didn't know the "same age as Ewin" thing was corrected, so it seems that Faile probably is about 17-18.

As for Tallanvor, I'm guessing Perrin's estimate of him being 25 is just a mistake as well. As for what his real age is... Mid thirties seems like it would be right, but there are a wide range of ages given for him in the books. Perrin thinks he's 25, but if he really is only 4-5 years younger than Morgase that would make him about 40. And the Galad comment would seem to put him in his mid thirties. So I guess mid thirties is a good average of all that...

40 would probably make him older than Morgase. She was sixteen when she left the WT upon news of Tigraine's disappearance, and 18 when she married Taringail. Rand is born on Dragonmount in 978, so she is 36-38 when tEotW begins (998).

Oden
07-23-2012, 05:04 PM
I read about cherubs in the bible. They are the Great Lord's servants. His throne on Earth is made out of two of them, though the GL never completely arrived to take his seat, only his essence came.
They are described as half human, half animal (like a Trolloc), with wings (like a Dragkhar) and they rode the wind (like Myrddraal rides shadows). My question is this: is the Great Lord of David really the Great Lord of the Dark?
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." I'm thinking he convinced the world he was the good guy. That would explain why he was so evil BC. Then came a man, born of a maiden, to right our wrongs.

PS. My second verification word is Lan :p

David Selig
07-23-2012, 07:08 PM
40 would probably make him older than Morgase. She was sixteen when she left the WT upon news of Tigraine's disappearance, and 18 when she married Taringail. Rand is born on Dragonmount in 978, so she is 36-38 when tEotW begins (998).
Morgase is 43-44. Tigraine disappeared in 972 NE (EOTW Glossary), when Morgase was 16. Tigraine spend four years in the Waste before the Aiel War began.

Jasin Natael
07-23-2012, 07:30 PM
Here's a question...where are all the Trakand armsmen? It doesn't make sense for them all to be in the Queen's Guards, but a major plot point is that Elayne is chronically short of soldiers. Trakand is a powerful house, one of the nineteen that can take the throne, and probably has several vassal Houses. Surely one of the first places she could look is on the soldiers sworn to her, but I don't remember any mention of them.

David Selig
07-23-2012, 07:43 PM
Here's a question...where are all the Trakand armsmen? It doesn't make sense for them all to be in the Queen's Guards, but a major plot point is that Elayne is chronically short of soldiers. Trakand is a powerful house, one of the nineteen that can take the throne, and probably has several vassal Houses. Surely one of the first places she could look is on the soldiers sworn to her, but I don't remember any mention of them.
IIRC many of them left immediately for the capital when they got the news she was back, but it took them ages to reach it (due to the snow), and since they were somewhere on the way and not at the Trakand lands, it was hard to get them even with Travelling (though still some got to caemlyn this way, several thousands in total IIRC). Something contrived like this, which seemed a bit like an excuse to have Elayne's forces severely outnumbered to me.

Terez
07-23-2012, 07:49 PM
Technically those were houses sworn to Trakand, not Trakands. We haven't seen any of those. Discounting Tomas Trakand, a cousin from a minor branch of the House. :)

justin9e
07-25-2012, 12:03 AM
hey in CoS Sammeal gives the Shaido Aiel small cubes used to travel, then afterwards hes talking with grandeal, i was just looking for clarification, are the boxes/cubes really ter'angreal. or are they fake? also can someone clarify why he sent some of the aiel into a trap? i am a bit lost. it was CoS chapter 40, Spears. i think.

Kimon
07-25-2012, 12:30 AM
hey in CoS Sammeal gives the Shaido Aiel small cubes used to travel, then afterwards hes talking with grandeal, i was just looking for clarification, are the boxes/cubes really ter'angreal. or are they fake? also can someone clarify why he sent some of the aiel into a trap? i am a bit lost. it was CoS chapter 40, Spears. i think.

He called the "traveling boxes" nar'baha (fool boxes) for a reason. He was opening the gateways himself, the boxes were just for show.

Ieyasu
07-25-2012, 12:34 AM
hey in CoS Sammeal gives the Shaido Aiel small cubes used to travel, then afterwards hes talking with grandeal, i was just looking for clarification, are the boxes/cubes really ter'angreal. or are they fake? also can someone clarify why he sent some of the aiel into a trap? i am a bit lost. it was CoS chapter 40, Spears. i think.


The boxes were fake. The translation of their name was "foolbox" which Greandal mentioned was risky in case one of them made the connection. The scene also shows that Sammael tied off most of the gateways to dissipate after a short while, but held open several to ensure proper numbers went through.

He sent some of the Aiel in front of Rand's offensive that was marching towards Illian at the time, but I am not sure what trap you are talking about? Basically he spread them out all over, some in positions to slow down Rands troops, others in positions that would just sow chaos in the areas they were in.

justin9e
07-25-2012, 12:56 AM
Yea that was the 'trap' was when he sent them in front of rands troops, just got to the part where they mentioned that a bit ago. So why use the boxes then, if they were fake all along? just to make it appear like he was giving them something, cuz he said they could only be used once every 3 hrs so he would be gone before they tried to use them again. which makes me wonder why would he do that, unless he doesn't plan to contact them again, cuz they would then know he tricked them.

Kimon
07-25-2012, 01:07 AM
Yea that was the 'trap' was when he sent them in front of rands troops, just got to the part where they mentioned that a bit ago. So why use the boxes then, if they were fake all along? just to make it appear like he was giving them something, cuz he said they could only be used once every 3 hrs so he would be gone before they tried to use them again. which makes me wonder why would he do that, unless he doesn't plan to contact them again, cuz they would then know he tricked them.

It allowed him to send them without making it quite so obvious that he was doing the channeling.

justin9e
07-25-2012, 01:10 AM
oooh right they didnt know he could channel. riiight, gotcha. thanks

Rand al'Fain
07-28-2012, 07:33 PM
For Sheriam, obviously a BA and was executed, but otherwise, do we know of anyother crime she committed? We know she was friends with Siuan and Moiraine in New Spring, and never (at least that I can recall) tried to sway Elayne, Egwene, or Nynaeve over to the Black Ajah (considering they were the most powerful channelers in a 1000 years and they all had ties to Rand). And in her POV that revealed her to be a BA member, it sounded like she wished she wasn't. So, do we know of any crimes other than actually being a member of the BA? And manipulating would not count, else the whole White Tower would be considered so.

maleshub
07-28-2012, 09:50 PM
For Sheriam, obviously a BA and was executed, but otherwise, do we know of anyother crime she committed? We know she was friends with Siuan and Moiraine in New Spring, and never (at least that I can recall) tried to sway Elayne, Egwene, or Nynaeve over to the Black Ajah (considering they were the most powerful channelers in a 1000 years and they all had ties to Rand). And in her POV that revealed her to be a BA member, it sounded like she wished she wasn't. So, do we know of any crimes other than actually being a member of the BA? And manipulating would not count, else the whole White Tower would be considered so.

As to whether she committed or was privy to any crimes, that is an fact since she confessed to many crimes and schemes before her death with the hope that it might save her life. But the details of those crimes are a mystery.

And if we take Verin's experience, she was working against the Shadow from within; but that didn't allow her to sidestep her responsibilities and fulfill the missions given to her by her superiors. She admitted that she's committed crimes that required a special kind of salvation. So, I don't think Sheriam somehow managed to evade doing what must be done to remain alive after joining the Shadow.

justin9e
07-31-2012, 01:03 AM
Hey so a couple times now while reading Suain and Elayne mention how Egwene was Forced, while training. (as in to be trained faster than normal). so i was wondering when does this occur exactly? and where/what are Nyneave and Elayne doing during this time? Thanks again~

yks 6nnetu hing
07-31-2012, 02:04 AM
Hey so a couple times now while reading Suain and Elayne mention how Egwene was Forced, while training. (as in to be trained faster than normal). so i was wondering when does this occur exactly? and where/what are Nyneave and Elayne doing during this time? Thanks again~

During her captivity with the Seanchan

GonzoTheGreat
07-31-2012, 04:19 AM
and where/what are Nyneave and Elayne doing during this time?
They were being forced as a result of their fights against damane, thus more or less keeping up with Egwene.

rand
07-31-2012, 03:41 PM
Actually I think Elayne mentions at one point that Egwene is stronger than she is due to forcing.

So I guess the force is stronger with Egwene.

justin9e
07-31-2012, 04:25 PM
Yeah it definitely* says that Egwene was stronger than Elayne because of Forcing.

~Thanks my spelling is horrible, i know.

Terez
08-01-2012, 04:41 AM
http://www.d-e-f-i-n-i-t-e-l-y.com/

yks 6nnetu hing
08-01-2012, 04:51 AM
http://www.d-e-f-i-n-i-t-e-l-y.com/

Egwene certainly is defiant on some things. And Elayne is constantly the object of defiance...

SamJ
08-01-2012, 11:08 AM
In EOTW chapter 49 as they are attacked in the blight Mat shouts in the old tongue. Does anyone know what this part means: "Mordero daghain pas duente cuebiyar!" ?

Zombie Sammael
08-01-2012, 11:30 AM
In EOTW chapter 49 as they are attacked in the blight Mat shouts in the old tongue. Does anyone know what this part means: "Mordero daghain pas duente cuebiyar!" ?

"No fear of death holds my heart." (http://www.angelfire.com/tx/jcs97b/otd.html)

SamJ
08-01-2012, 11:36 AM
Thanks!

Nisheeth
08-02-2012, 10:57 AM
I was wondering, whether it was ever revealed what question did Moiraine find an answer to while with Adeleas in The Great Hunt?

WinespringBrother
08-02-2012, 12:31 PM
I was wondering, whether it was ever revealed what question did Moiraine find an answer to while with Adeleas in The Great Hunt?

I think it had something to do with Mordeth and Padan Fain. I wonder if they will meet again.

Terez
08-02-2012, 08:00 PM
I was wondering, whether it was ever revealed what question did Moiraine find an answer to while with Adeleas in The Great Hunt?
She realized that Fain had run into Mordeth in Shadar Logoth when Vandene mentioned that Mordeth was waiting for a soul to steal.

justin9e
08-03-2012, 12:01 AM
Do we know what Rand all asked for while he was in the door Ter'Angreal in Tear? I just read that he asked them how to cleanse Saidin which is new to me, I never remembered that on my first read. I seem to remember him asking them on how to win the Last Battle and survive, but I am not 100% on that one. In either case I am still missing the last question...
~Thanks again~

Terez
08-03-2012, 01:16 AM
We're all missing the last question, so don't feel bad.

Q: How do I cleanse saidin? (paraphrased)
A: (a riddle)

Q: How do I win and survive the Last Battle?
A: The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. To live, you must die.

Q: ?
A: ?

Landro
08-03-2012, 02:17 AM
I think it had something to do with Mordeth and Padan Fain. I wonder if they will meet again.

Fain will be waiting for Rand at Shaiol Ghul which is where Rand will go with Moiraine and Nyneave. So the answer is most likely 'yes'

GonzoTheGreat
08-03-2012, 02:54 AM
She realized that Fain had run into Mordeth in Shadar Logoth when Vandene mentioned that Mordeth was waiting for a soul to steal.
Why didn't she ask Moiraine?
That would've saved her the whole trip.

"Mordeth alone was not consumed by Mashadar, but he was snared by it, and he, too, has waited within these walls through the long centuries. Others have seen him. Some he has influenced through gifts that twist the mind and taint the spirit, the taint waxing and waning until it rules ... or kills. If ever he convinces someone to accompany him to the walls, to the boundary of Mashadar's power, he will be able to consume the soul of that person. Mordeth will leave, wearing the body of the one he worse than killed, to wreak his evil on the world again."

Terez
08-03-2012, 03:49 AM
It wasn't that Vandene told her anything she didn't know already. She just turned on a light bulb, so to speak.

GonzoTheGreat
08-03-2012, 03:59 AM
It wasn't that Vandene told her anything she didn't know already. She just turned on a light bulb, so to speak.
Good trick, that, when dealing with an AS. Of course, with Moiraine it is a bit easier than with most, but still, very impressive. :p

Nisheeth
08-03-2012, 11:28 AM
I just read New Spring. Does the Aiel Shouting "Aan'allein" have any significance? And did they know it was Lan who was leading the army?
And thanks for replying about the Moiraine question.

Landro
08-03-2012, 11:36 AM
I just read New Spring. Does the Aiel Shouting "Aan'allein" have any significance? And did they know it was Lan who was leading the army?
And thanks for replying about the Moiraine question.

It is the name they have given to Lan to show their respect towards him. I'm 100% sure they knew it was him. It means "One Man" or "a man who is an entire nation". Moiraine explains this in TSR chapter 23.

Nisheeth
08-03-2012, 11:50 AM
Thanks!

justin9e
08-03-2012, 12:25 PM
So I was kinda looking forward to Rand dying (permanently) in the last book, but from what he gets from the door Ter'Angreal, it is possible for him to win and survive. So I am guessing now this is more likely, what do you all think?

Zombie Sammael
08-03-2012, 02:19 PM
So I was kinda looking forward to Rand dying (permanently) in the last book, but from what he gets from the door Ter'Angreal, it is possible for him to win and survive. So I am guessing now this is more likely, what do you all think?

The best theory (IMO) is that Rand will die before TG proper and be resurrected by being ripped out of TAR, Birgitte style. But there are others.

Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon
08-03-2012, 03:47 PM
T'A'R is neutral, right? So, anyone could travel based on need, regardless of whether their need serves the Light or the Shadow?

For example...

Suppose the Green Man's grove is in T'A'R - which i believe, and have seen some comments/posts suggesting I'm not the only one, plus Terez pointed me toward an old theory that mostly agrees with me (I can post the link later if needed). Moiraine mentioned a few times that there could be no need greater than that of her crew. But, could there be an equivalent need, on the other side?

I know Aginor said Mat guided the two Forsaken to the grove, but could that have been need-based? If Aginor didn't need the Eye of the World enough to get there, he certainly needed to find the boys (and, with Mat being the only one to touch his dream-figurine, he would still be the "guide").

I'm still pondering the meaning of Aginor's comment (i.e., "An old thing...") and i think it could apply to need-based searching but, on top of my other question(s) in this post, can anyone direct me to any discussions about what Aginor meant?

Thanks.

The Unreasoner
08-03-2012, 04:11 PM
T'A'R is neutral, right? So, anyone could travel based on need, regardless of whether their need serves the Light or the Shadow?
This is something of a philosophical question, but if I understand the mechanics properly, I'll take a shot at it:

The nature of 'evil' in the world of the Wheel of Time is always imperfect within the Pattern. A 'perfect' evil is opposed to the Pattern, and can only exist outside of it. At the same time, the equal and opposite force to the Dark One is neither the Creator nor the Light, but rather humanity. Therefore, a true 'lightsider' will always have his or her goals aligned with those of the Wheel and the perpetuation of the Pattern. The goals run parallel, in a sense. So (and the similarities of finding the Green Man and searching with Need are relevant here), lightsiders are more strongly 'present', in a way (just as being in T'A'R in the flesh gives one greater power there), and are capable of greater need. A true servant of the Shadow is necessarily divided against himself on a fundamental level, and so has less energy to expend outwards. And a half-hearted servant of the Shadow would have some degree of indifference that also diminishes his Need.


IOW...
No.

ETA:
This is just on Need. All evidence suggests that standard T'A'R manipulation is equally possible for either side.

One possible exception is the Mesaana v. Egwene battle of wills. The internal conflict of the true servants of the Shadow may inevitably weaken the 'sense of self'

Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon
08-03-2012, 10:04 PM
"...[everything the Unreasoner said]..."

Yup. That makes sense to me. Thanks for the explanation.


So, to clarify (because I've been away from the world of WoT for a little while, and EotW is the only book I've read twice so far):

Does the Dark One exist outside of the Pattern?
If so, what about his prison? (I have so many questions about this.)
If not, was he created by the Creator?
Better yet, is there a WoT cosmology somewhere that I can read?

Terez
08-03-2012, 10:19 PM
WoT cosmology: you'll need The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time (http://www.amazon.com/World-Robert-Jordans-Wheel-Time/dp/0312862199), a.k.a. the Big White Book (BWB). Some very good deals there; I just ordered a used hardcover. Mine is paperback, and it never occurred to me to look for a deal on Amazon for some reason...

For now:

1. Yes, the Dark One is outside the Pattern.
2. His prison is, for those inside the Pattern, technically 'everywhere'. It can best be sensed through the thinness in the Pattern found at Shayol Ghul.
3. We don't know if the Creator created him. It seems...unlikely?
4. BWB.

Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon
08-03-2012, 10:43 PM
Thank you, yet again! Just ordered the BWB.

And, yeah...
We don't know if the Creator created him. It seems...unlikely?
Now that I am no longer confused about the DO being external from the Pattern, I think it's a pretty safe bet that he was not created by the Creator.

Kimon
08-06-2012, 01:38 AM
Have we ever seen a woman smoking in WOT?

maleshub
08-06-2012, 04:03 AM
Nope, only sniffing. But we are not introduced to the world of hells appropriately. That would be a place where women smoke!

Landro
08-06-2012, 07:01 AM
Have we ever seen a woman smoking in WOT?

It seems the women in Randland are too smart to smoke ;)

Tomp
08-06-2012, 09:04 AM
Do you guys think RJ put Aram in the story just to show how easily the innocent are corrupted?

Terez
08-06-2012, 11:32 AM
No. I think he put Aram in for Perrin conflict. I'm not sure he had a clear idea where he was going with it in the beginning. That's probably the case with a lot of similar details, but in this case he doesn't appear to have come up with anything truly interesting.

Zombie Sammael
08-06-2012, 12:01 PM
No. I think he put Aram in for Perrin conflict. I'm not sure he had a clear idea where he was going with it in the beginning. That's probably the case with a lot of similar details, but in this case he doesn't appear to have come up with anything truly interesting.

Aram's essentially a reverse-Perrin, in that while Perrin's desire is for peace but he is willing to fight, Aram gave up peace in order to fight. That's why he's in the story, and essentially what Terez appears to be getting at. The conflict serves to show Perrin rejecting such a notion, and as such Aram has to die.

Terez
08-06-2012, 12:09 PM
There's really not much difference between Perrin and Aram philosophically, other than the way Aram was raised (which was essentially in a religious fashion). The difference was character. Aram was just a troubled young man, and the deaths of his parents made it worse. Honestly he wasn't developed very well; there are tons of minor characters with less prominent places in the story and more development. Aram was generally just there, being slightly weird and otherwise part of the scenery.

Tomp
08-06-2012, 04:01 PM
There's really not much difference between Perrin and Aram philosophically, other than the way Aram was raised (which was essentially in a religious fashion). The difference was character. Aram was just a troubled young man, and the deaths of his parents made it worse. Honestly he wasn't developed very well; there are tons of minor characters with less prominent places in the story and more development. Aram was generally just there, being slightly weird and otherwise part of the scenery.

So one could say that Aram was the ultimate follower and Perrin the ultimate leader. Except during the missing-Faile-crisis, when Perrin stopped being a leader and became a "crusader" for a cause. That's why Aram was drawn to the only other leader in the area. Aram must have someone to follow.

I'm only thinking out loud here (or its equivalent in this medium).

SamJ
08-07-2012, 03:44 PM
In TGH, chapter 15 when Rand and co travel the mirror world, does anyone know what made the black scorch marks on the landscape? Feel like I'm missing something obvious ...

Landro
08-08-2012, 12:25 PM
Is there a thread that discusses Jahar Narishma's future? Prophesy says he may have a big role to play but until now he's mostly been a follower.


Into the heart he thrusts his sword,
into the heart, to hold their hearts.
Who draws it out shall follow after,
What hand can grasp that fearful blade?

Zombie Sammael
08-08-2012, 01:32 PM
Is there a thread that discusses Jahar Narishma's future? Prophesy says he may have a big role to play but until now he's mostly been a follower.

Not to start a debate, but that prophecy doesn't necessarily state much other than his existence. In fact, depending on your reading, that prophecy just confirms his status as a follower as you've mentioned; he follows after Rand, and draws out Callandor for him. The fact that it isn't Rand who later takes Callandor might be the only reason he's even mentioned at all. The question really is this: does mere participation in prophecy indicate significance, even when the prophecy itself does not?

Terez
08-08-2012, 02:55 PM
I don't think that prophecy refers to Narishma at all.

Davian93
08-08-2012, 03:02 PM
I don't think that prophecy refers to Narishma at all.

Are you implying that Rand might be wrong about something? Because that's not possible.

Zombie Sammael
08-08-2012, 03:44 PM
I don't think that prophecy refers to Narishma at all.

Moridin?

Ivhon
08-08-2012, 04:27 PM
Are you implying that Rand might be wrong about something? Because that's not possible.

Search your feelings...you KNOW it to be true.

Terez
08-08-2012, 04:47 PM
Moridin?
Not sure who. The who depends on what the prophecy actually refers to; I don't think it is likely that it refers to Rand's attempted forcing of the prophecy.

Davian93
08-08-2012, 04:53 PM
Not sure who. The who depends on what the prophecy actually refers to; I don't think it is likely that it refers to Rand's attempted forcing of the prophecy.

Neither do I. I think Moridin seems to fit though...along with that black hand viewing.

Didnt we have a discussion along these lines a couple years ago?

Terez
08-08-2012, 05:05 PM
Moridin might fit if the prophecy refers to Callandor. Maybe. I don't recall discussing this with you, but it may just be that the discussion was not memorable.

Davian93
08-08-2012, 05:23 PM
Moridin might fit if the prophecy refers to Callandor. Maybe. I don't recall discussing this with you, but it may just be that the discussion was not memorable.

I think I was mostly just lurking, not actively discussing it.

Zombie Sammael
08-08-2012, 05:45 PM
Not sure who. The who depends on what the prophecy actually refers to; I don't think it is likely that it refers to Rand's attempted forcing of the prophecy.

Just realised it also makes a lot of sense as a death-prophecy. Interesting.

Ishara
08-08-2012, 06:40 PM
I've moved the posts relating to the wards around Callandor specifically to another thread. If you're interested in pursuing the Narishma/ Moridin prophecy discussion, I can also move them into the same thread or into a seperate one. Just let me know! Let's try to keep this thread to question - answer format as much as possible. :)

Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon
08-08-2012, 07:05 PM
In TGH, chapter 15 when Rand and co travel the mirror world, does anyone know what made the black scorch marks on the landscape? Feel like I'm missing something obvious ...

I assumed it was people channeling fire. When Rand sees the end of one of them, it's described as tapering to a point, or something like that. It made me picture a person (the point) channeling a huge beam of fire straight out in front of her/him.

But, that's my only reason for the assumption. I'd be awfully surprised if no one here has a better explanation than what I'm giving you.

Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon
08-09-2012, 09:23 PM
Is Bayle Domon a tall man?

Terez
08-09-2012, 09:27 PM
Yes. Also wide.

WinespringBrother
08-10-2012, 09:09 AM
The discussion about Hanlon and spymasters has been moved here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7227).

Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon
08-10-2012, 05:21 PM
Somewhere in here is a theory - which was shot down pretty quickly - that claimed LTT balefired himself, rather than burning out. It got me to wondering, "if it were true that LTT somehow called balefire down on himself from above, then could it be the case that such a massive amount of balefire would de-thread the patch of earth on which LTT stood, thereby causing the area to revert to whatever was there before that particular patch of earth existed (i.e., an ancient volcano we now call 'Dragonmount')?"

So, here's my super deep philosophical question: if you balefired the crap out of the ground in front of you, would it just leave a hole?

Or, do balefired things revert to their previous states of existence (e.g., for a person, that would be the pre-birth soul; for a wall, it would be the empty space in which the wall was built)?

Are things like, "a patch of earth" even balefireable?

Bill Door
08-10-2012, 05:53 PM
When you Balfire something it destroys it, it burns the thread out of the pattern. But it burns the thread so much that the object gets destroyed in the past as well.

Say for example, I was to balefire my computer right now. It would destroy the computer, but it would also destroy the computer a week into the past*. Which would mean I wouldn't have been able to join this site, so there would be no Theoryland member called Bill Door. Meaning I wouldn't be able to write this post, and so on.

So no, a balefired object does not return to its previous state of existence. It would just leave a hole, but it would also mean that there has been a hole in the ground there for the last week.

At least that's my interpretation of it.

*The length of time depends on the strength of the balefire being channelled, and is probably a lot less than a week.

Terez
08-10-2012, 05:55 PM
1. RJ is the one who shot down the Lews Therin Balefired Himself theory, in case you weren't aware. (Unclear from what you said.)

2. Yes, a patch of earth is balefireable. When non-living things are balefired, they are only destroyed where the balefire touches them. Brandon says there is a slight spread effect that takes care of your clothes when you're balefired, and increases the more power you use, which is his explanation for Natrin's Barrow.

3. RJ said the temporal effects also apply to inanimate objects; this has been argued for years due to Nynaeve's boat, which was filled with water on the instant that it was balefired. The balefiring of the rowers explains the boat moving back up the river, but doesn't explain the water.

Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon
08-10-2012, 09:59 PM
1. RJ is the one who shot down the Lews Therin Balefired Himself theory, in case you weren't aware. (Unclear from what you said.)
I was not aware of that. But, at the same time, yeah, I should’ve been more clear: I definitely was not agreeing with the theory that LTT balefired himself – it just got me thinking about balefire, in general. Also, I was being sarcastic about how that was a deep philosophical question; but, now y'all got me really thinking about it, and I have way more balefire questions.

I promise to do my best to find answers before posting a ton of questions at once; so, in the meantime, here's a seemingly unrelated question:

Do we know the consequences of Birgitte's being ripped out of T'A'R - specifically regarding her HotH status and what happens if she dies now?

The Unreasoner
08-10-2012, 10:28 PM
It seems likely that she will end up being bound to the Horn. Whether or not she needs to be 're-admitted' to the ranks based on her deeds in this life remains unclear. But Min (who can only see people's futures) has viewed Birgitte, and seen more adventures than one lifetime could possibly hold, and someone connected to her (presumably Gaidal Cain) who appears younger in some images and older in others.

Which raises an interesting line of thought: Min can see the future lives of a soul, too. At least for someone in Birgitte's situation. Unless, of course, Birgitte simply stops aging altogether (maybe the T'A'R image file is read-only). But that seems less likely.

Sarevok
08-11-2012, 02:31 AM
edit: nevermind. T beat me to it. :)

Terez
08-11-2012, 02:48 AM
Do we know the consequences of Birgitte's being ripped out of T'A'R - specifically regarding her HotH status and what happens if she dies now?
She's still a Hero. Min had a viewing indicating that she's still tied to Gaidal and will be for many lives to come, so there is no reason to believe that she isn't. If she were to die, she'd probably be spun out again immediately, but that's not going to happen because Min's viewing indicates that Birgitte will be older than Gaidal in this life and perhaps others too. So, that's the only real consequence for Birgitte. Things will be weird this time because she was ripped out with her past life memories rather than being born as a baby without them. She's losing her memories but it's yet to be seen how far that will go. She will probably always remember something of being a dead Hero.

justin9e
08-14-2012, 12:57 AM
After Rand is kidnapped by the Aes Sedai, I remeber he looses his angreal, do we know what happened to it? I don't remember him finding it, but I could be mistaken.

Kimon
08-14-2012, 01:35 AM
After Rand is kidnapped by the Aes Sedai, I remeber he looses his angreal, do we know what happened to it? I don't remember him finding it, but I could be mistaken.

The fat little man hasn't resurfaced. Taim might have it, or else one of the sisters who escaped with Gawyn might have pocketed it.

Terez
08-14-2012, 07:44 AM
Taim doesn't have it because Taim searched for it too.

GonzoTheGreat
08-14-2012, 07:45 AM
Taim doesn't have it because Taim searched for it too.
Or Taim might have found it and then gone through the motions of searching, to hide the fact that he had it. Or he might've hoped to find another angreal, for his other hand.