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rand
08-08-2012, 10:34 PM
Maybe I'm forgetting/missing something, but why don't people like Reene Harfor and Halwin Norry recognize Daved Hanlon when he "saves" Elayne and is made a captain, despite the fact that he essentially had the same job a few months beforehand in the White Lions? He would have been in the palace for that job, too, right? Assuming Harfor and Norry know about Rahvin (I don't remember if they do), they should at least be questioning why one of his top followers is back and in a position of power again.

GonzoTheGreat
08-09-2012, 03:46 AM
Maybe I'm forgetting/missing something, but why don't people like Reene Harfor and Halwin Norry recognize Daved Hanlon when he "saves" Elayne and is made a captain, despite the fact that he essentially had the same job a few months beforehand in the White Lions? He would have been in the palace for that job, too, right? Assuming Harfor and Norry know about Rahvin (I don't remember if they do), they should at least be questioning why one of his top followers is back and in a position of power again.
I'm not sure that Rahvin ever brought his White Lions to Caemlyn, let alone into the palace. He didn't need them there, he had Morgase to keep control of the court. So it is entirely possible that no one in Caemlyn had seen Hanlon before.

Then again, one would think that a competent spy master would've figured out that there was a bit of a coincidence with the former leader of a Forsaken's private army now appearing in Elayne's service.

Terez
08-09-2012, 04:50 AM
There's also the problem of the spurs at the Darkfriend Social. Of course, that could have been a disguise.

Davian93
08-09-2012, 08:24 AM
I'm not sure that Rahvin ever brought his White Lions to Caemlyn, let alone into the palace. He didn't need them there, he had Morgase to keep control of the court. So it is entirely possible that no one in Caemlyn had seen Hanlon before.

Then again, one would think that a competent spy master would've figured out that there was a bit of a coincidence with the former leader of a Forsaken's private army now appearing in Elayne's service.

Perhaps Norry is a Darkfriend too...

GonzoTheGreat
08-09-2012, 10:00 AM
Perhaps Norry is a Darkfriend too...
You? No!

maleshub
08-09-2012, 10:04 AM
But Norry isn't a competent spymaster. He was forced into the job. In brief, he is several leagues below Thom's level.

Terez
08-09-2012, 10:29 AM
Several leagues? I don't think so. Norry shares several traits with Balwer, and I wouldn't be so quick to take him at face value. He argues that his sources are merely correspondents, but a good spymaster would do exactly that. Balwer does it too. Few can compete with Thom, but don't sell old Norry short.

maleshub
08-09-2012, 10:35 AM
Several leagues? I don't think so. Norry shares several traits with Balwer, and I wouldn't be so quick to take him at face value. He argues that his sources are merely correspondents, but a good spymaster would do exactly that. Balwer does it too. Few can compete with Thom, but don't sell old Norry short.

Thanks for reminding of Balwer. He's probably close to Thom's level at information gathering, not field operations (killing a king!!!!). But Norry was forced into the job; and Elayne was thinking about the need to have a better spymaster in ToM when discussing Cairhien with Norry and Dyelin.

Terez
08-09-2012, 11:08 AM
But Norry was forced into the job
You keep saying that, but it's not true.

...and Elayne was thinking about the need to have a better spymaster in ToM when discussing Cairhien with Norry and Dyelin.
You talking about this?

Master Norry cleared his throat. "Your Majesty, Lady Dyelin's advice is not born of idle speculation. I, um, have heard things. Knowing of your interests in Cairhien. . . ."

He'd been growing better at gathering informants. She'd turn him into a regular spymaster yet!
1. Not what you said.

2. I don't take anything Brandon writes at face value. Most of the complexities of WoT were in RJ's head, and Brandon hasn't had nearly enough time to figure them all out.

Norry was not really in spymaster mode when Elayne showed up, but he had the skills already (not to mention the correspondents), and no doubt built a better network without any help from Elayne. She had advantages over him because of gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod, connections in high places, etc. but that does not mean that Norry is not skilled.

Davian93
08-09-2012, 11:17 AM
Using Elayne as a judge of character/ability is hilarious.

GonzoTheGreat
08-09-2012, 11:44 AM
Using Elayne as a judge of character/ability is hilarious.
Why?

Which question, you may note, fits right into the topic of this thread. :D

The Unreasoner
08-09-2012, 03:01 PM
You talking about this?
I think he was talking about a quote that would support his argument, not yours. Maybe it was from the chapter where Norry blew the Duhara situation.
Using Elayne as a judge of character/ability is hilarious.
For us, yes. But within the WoT universe, she's goddamn Machiavelli.

Still 2nd amongst the Supergirls.

(Maybe this needs a new thread too, Ishara? Or do we really not care?)

Terez
08-09-2012, 03:16 PM
I think he was talking about a quote that would support his argument, not yours. Maybe it was from the chapter where Norry blew the Duhara situation.
That's not what he said.

The Unreasoner
08-09-2012, 03:29 PM
That's not what he said.
While self-rated fallibility of internet posters is at an all-time low, maybe he's in the minority. Or maybe someone mentioned Cairhien in the scene. IDK.

maleshub
08-09-2012, 09:35 PM
You keep saying that, but it's not true.


You talking about this?



I'll reply to the second point first, here's what I am talking about (which was a few paragraphs after your quote):

Dyelin and Master Norry nodded. Eventually, she would probably have to build a stronger network of eyes-and-ears, as neither of these two was perfectly suited to leading them. Norry was too obvious, and he already had enough to do with his other duties.


As to the first point, Norry was the Royal Palace's chief clerk, if I remember his official title. He was Andor's "Finance Minister" and probably chief administrator.

Elayne was forced to use him as an information gatherer to fill (partially) a deficiency in her ruling apparatus during the Caemlyn siege and shortly afterwards.

Terez
08-09-2012, 09:36 PM
As to the first point, Norry was the Royal Palace's chief clerk, if I remember his official title. He was Andor's "Finance Minister" and probably chief administrator.

Elayne was forced to use him as an information gatherer to fill (partially) a deficiency in her ruling apparatus during the Caemlyn siege and shortly afterwards.
You're changing your story now. Norry was not forced into the job, and his obviousness has nothing whatsoever to do with his skills.

maleshub
08-09-2012, 09:42 PM
Thanks for reminding of Balwer. He's probably close to Thom's level at information gathering, not field operations (killing a king!!!!). But Norry was forced into the job; and Elayne was thinking about the need to have a better spymaster in ToM when discussing Cairhien with Norry and Dyelin.

You're changing your story now. Norry was not forced into the job, and his obviousness has nothing whatsoever to do with his skills.

Two points in my quote above:
- Norry forced into the job
- Elayne was thinking about the need to have a better spymaster in ToM.

Is the provided quote sufficient to verify the second point?
Dyelin and Master Norry nodded. Eventually, she would probably have to build a stronger network of eyes-and-ears, as neither of these two was perfectly suited to leading them. Norry was too obvious, and he already had enough to do with his other duties.

As to the first point, maybe the word "forced" is misleading in what I was trying to convey. Elayne had to use Norry as a spymaster (external) and Harfor as an internal security spymistress. She didn't have any other alternatives.

Landro
08-10-2012, 01:46 AM
Keep in mind that Balwer was officially just a secretary. It's not unlikely that Norry was Morgase's spymaster too and Elayne thought his publicly known office was his real one because Morgase never let her in on the secret.

Terez
08-10-2012, 02:55 AM
Two points in my quote above:
- Norry forced into the job
- Elayne was thinking about the need to have a better spymaster in ToM.

Is the provided quote sufficient to verify the second point?
No, for reasons I already explained. I'm starting to get the feeling you're trolling.

maleshub
08-10-2012, 03:58 PM
I'm starting to get the feeling you're trolling.

:confused: I said that Elayne was thinking of replacing Norry; and supplied a quote to support that statement. I don't know if that is trolling because honestly I don't know what it means.

I highly respect your posts and your status in this forum and in WoT universe. There is something to learn from you in every discussion. But that won't stop me from discussing a point; and I won't turn off my own thinking and understanding of WoT, deficient as it may be, to discuss what is posted on the forums. There are some discussions that I know are out of my league like the Sorilea discussion. But my understanding of Elayne and Rand's women is slightly better.

So, it saddens me that you think this discussion is "trolling."

rand
08-14-2012, 12:02 AM
I figured I'd put another vaguely Hanlon-oriented question in this thread. I just noticed for the first time that CoT chapter 15 Gathering Darkness has the saidin chapter icon. This is the chapter with the PoV of Elenia in Arymilla's camp, and also Hanlon going to see Shiaine. So why does the icon seem to imply that something in this chapter has to do with male channelers? Is the mystery guest that Shiaine murders supposed to be an Asha'man?

GonzoTheGreat
08-14-2012, 03:18 AM
The saidin icon happens to be the Dragon's Fang too, which is a generally accepted sign of the presence of evil, specifically: darkfriends. So it may not be a wholly clear sign of what is to be found in the chapter it's placed with.

Figbiscuit
08-14-2012, 05:13 AM
Perhaps Norry is a Darkfriend too...

Maybe all those inkstains are a subtely coded message to other Darkfriends!!

Lost One
12-15-2012, 01:29 PM
David Hanlon was only a captain in the White Lions, and while a FotD, not that senior. Unless he had a specific reason for being in the palace, no one in the palce would have known his face. The situation is similar to the character of Prince Kheldar/Silk of the Belgariad by David Eddings. He had several aliases for different people and situations, and each traveled in different social circles and locations. So while people in one group might know his face as Radek of Boktor, the name and discription Ambar of Kotu meant nothing to them.