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View Full Version : Ishmael was there? Or not?


SauceyBlueConfetti
08-22-2012, 03:00 PM
In EotW, Ishmael stands in front of crazed Lews Therin and gives him his moment of clarity regarding Ilyena's death.

Later, when visiting Rand in his dreams he says:

TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 14 - The Stag and Lion
"Fool, I have never been bound!" The fires of his face roared so hot that Rand stepped back, sheltering behind his hands. The sweat on his palms dried from the heat. "I stood at Lews Therin Kinslayer's shoulder when he did the deed that named him. It was I who told him to kill his wife, and his children, and all his blood, and every living person who loved him or whom he loved. It was I who gave him the moment of sanity to know what he had done.


Do we have any information on this? Was Ish truly THERE when Lews Therin killed them, did he tell him to do it while the taint was feeding on his soul? Or was this posturing by Ish, trying to say he did more, saw more, said more than he truly did and was taking credit for something to scare Rand? It just seems odd he would be there for the killing, leave, then return. Not to mention the disdain he showed for the dead when he spoke to the mad Lews Therin as if seeing them for the first time.


Edited for clarity, then re-edited :)

Terez
08-22-2012, 03:02 PM
It wasn't just disdain for the dead; he was also surprised when he took in the details of the scene:

"Lord of the Morning," he said, "I have come for you."

The laughter cut off as if it had never been, and Lews Therin turned, seeming unsurprised. "Ah, a guest. Have you the Voice, stranger? It will soon be time for the Singing, and here all are welcome to take part. Ilyena, my love, we have a guest. Ilyena, where are you?"

The black-clad man's eyes widened, darted to the body of the golden-haired woman, then back to Lews Therin. "Shai'tan take you, does the taint already have you so far in its grip?"

Ishara
08-22-2012, 03:25 PM
Yeah, I'd say this would a prime example of RJ asking if we believed everything Ishamael said. I don't think he was there, but was more than willing to take credit for the horror.

Ivhon
08-22-2012, 04:31 PM
Or his eyes could have widened in surprise that LTT doesn't remember or even see what he has done.

Terez
08-22-2012, 04:37 PM
Yes, but his words indicate that he hasn't seen Lews Therin since the taint got him. And if the taint didn't have him so far when he supposedly whispered in his ear then he wouldn't have had any reason to believe that Lews Therin would actually do it.

Ivhon
08-22-2012, 04:42 PM
Yes, but his words indicate that he hasn't seen Lews Therin since the taint got him. And if the taint didn't have him so far when he supposedly whispered in his ear then he wouldn't have had any reason to believe that Lews Therin would actually do it.

Or maybe Ishamael's not so surprised that he would do it, just that he's so far gone he can't even see what he's done when it is lying right in front of him. I mean, the poor nutter is calling for a wife who's dead body is in plain sight.

Great Lord of the Dark
08-22-2012, 07:32 PM
Ishamael is simply exagerrating ever so slightly. He showed up within minutes of Lews Therin killing his wife and family. The damage is so recent the palace stil is graoning from damage to its foundations, motes of dust still hang in the air. Ishamael wasn't there at the precise moment Lews Therin murdered Ilyena, but he missed it by less than a minute or two.

He is telling the truth, as he sees it, and the difference is semantics.

GonzoTheGreat
08-23-2012, 03:52 AM
Ishamael was being "creative with the truth", as it's called.
He did not stand at LTT's shoulder when that one did the killing.
He did not make suggestions about whom LTT should kill; if he'd done that, he would probably have been a casualty too himself.
But he did give LTT that moment of sanity, in which LTT realised what he had actually done.

And, finally, the first: he was bound, but not quite as much as the others. They were bound with cuendillar chains, Ishamael with bungee cord, so that he could bounce in and out of time/existence/whatever*.

* I think that "whatever" is the most accurate, even though it isn't really all that informative.

WinespringBrother
08-23-2012, 07:53 AM
Ishy was certainly there in spirit at least during the deed, but was wise enough to stay clear of a rampaging madman who was blindly killing everyone around him with elemental forces. And who is going to call him on that lie, anyway? Not to mention the fact that Ishamael was a few bricks short of a full load himself, and may have convinced himself over the subsequent millenia that he was there.

greatwolf
08-24-2012, 11:25 AM
Or maybe just maybe Ishy was referring to the DO manipulating LTT's mind while in the grip of the taint?

padfoot89
09-01-2012, 06:32 AM
Is there a reason why Lews Therin did not attack Ishamael when he popped up ? I thought he was at the "kill anything that moves" stage.

GonzoTheGreat
09-01-2012, 07:05 AM
Is there a reason why Lews Therin did not attack Ishamael when he popped up ? I thought he was at the "kill anything that moves" stage.
Nah, he'd gotten over that. Now he was at the "let's all sit around the corpses and sing kumbaya" stage". If only Ishamael had gone along with it, the entire Third Age would have been vastly different.

Tomp
09-02-2012, 05:28 AM
Does anyone know how long time it takes from that the Saa is formed in the eyes until you have fiery eyes and mouth?

The same question in another way.
How long until Moridin gets his fiery eyes and mouth?

Enigma
09-03-2012, 01:31 PM
I don't think RJ ever fully answered how long it takes for the fire eyes to show up. My understanding is that it is the end stage of the cycle of using the True Power and death is around the corner unless the DO is willing to step in.

Likewise I think the black flecks is a middle stage. If I remember correctly one of the forsaken commented on the specks when Moridin used the TP and it was something like he must have been using it exclusivly to be that far advanced. We know that Graendal used the TP to impress forsaken with her lin the last book but she had to brush his/her cheek with the weave so she would know Graendal had access to the TP. Presumably she does not have the black flecks but most of the forsaken don't use it very often.

If your looking for more info I think RJ touched on it a bit during a very extensive taped interview he did in eastern Europe, I think it was Budapest and it should be knocking around somewhere.

neurotopia
09-05-2012, 08:48 PM
It seemed weird to me that basically Moridin showed up with the saa almost immediately. Is it possible that Moridin's body belonged to another dark channeler who had TP access, and Ishy inherited it?

Ishy is a bit unhinged and would probably think of anything associated with the DO's actions as being "his", since Ishy is the proxy chosen to fight for the DO. They're near-one and the same in his eyes.

SauceyBlueConfetti
09-05-2012, 09:01 PM
I don't think RJ ever fully answered how long it takes for the fire eyes to show up. My understanding is that it is the end stage of the cycle of using the True Power and death is around the corner unless the DO is willing to step in.

Likewise I think the black flecks is a middle stage. If I remember correctly one of the forsaken commented on the specks when Moridin used the TP and it was something like he must have been using it exclusivly to be that far advanced. We know that Graendal used the TP to impress forsaken with her lin the last book but she had to brush his/her cheek with the weave so she would know Graendal had access to the TP. Presumably she does not have the black flecks but most of the forsaken don't use it very often.

If your looking for more info I think RJ touched on it a bit during a very extensive taped interview he did in eastern Europe, I think it was Budapest and it should be knocking around somewhere.

Go to the interview database HERE (http://theoryland.com/wheel-of-time-interview-search.php) and type in SAA. For anyone looking for supporting info/details, the database is great and easy to use

Lost One
12-14-2012, 07:33 PM
I think it was a little of both. In the prologue of TEOTW, Elan Morin Teldronai arrives soon after Lews Therin kills his family/household (without glowing eyes or black dots), talks with LTT, heals him, and gloats. While he is evidently a bad guy, he does not seem mad/loony/crackers... too much.

Later discussions,however, amongst the other Chosen imply that his is not all there, even to the extent that someone made the comment that "he thinks he is the Great Lord". Why else appear to everyone; Shadowspawn, Friends of the Dark, as well as the Boys as the Great Lord.

We know he was never bound as well as the other chosen. That was one thing that had bothered me; on the one hand, he was sealed away before LTT went mad, but yet, he was already out when LTT kill his family. Over the past three millenia, he did directly influence events. He somehow led during the Trollic Wars, and he influenced Artur Pendraeg Tanreal, "I whispered into his ear and across the breadth of the land, Aes Sedai died". Of course I can't find the source for that now, it is from a dream sequence in either TGH or TDR. It evidently was sometime during this period that he got the Saa, and Saa Advanced.

So I think Elan was boasting/ranting.

Ona related note, I do not think that Lews Therin went on a killing spree. He was in the grip of madness. I think that he just started throwing weaves on people, not knowing that he was killing them in much the same way a toddler might pull the ears/tail of the family pet while not knowing that this is hurting it. Maybe like "Oh my, son, you look hilarious sunk halfway through the floor" By the time Elan arrived, he had become distracted and was no longer playing with the power/

suttree
12-14-2012, 07:51 PM
I think beyond the TP being partially sealed and then spun out/locked back in over intervals of time would drive just about anyone mad. Further it is speculated in the BWB that he wasn't sealed in at the same time as the other Forsaken, it took some 40 years for him to be drawn fully into the trap.