PDA

View Full Version : Demandred = Kashgar?


Tollingtoy
09-04-2012, 08:31 PM
Forgive me if this has already been proposed, but could Demandred be posing as the Whitecloak Kashgar? In my reread of KOD, I noticed this interesting description in the prologue.

Realizing that he still held the helmet in an outstretched hand, Valda frowned at one of the dismounted Children, a lean Saldaean named Kashgar, until the man stepped forward to relieve him of it. Kashgar was only an under-lieutenant, almost boyish despite a great hooked nose and thick mustaches like inverted horns, yet he moved with an open reluctance...

To me, this SCREAMS Demandred. Hooked nose, boyish because of slowing perhaps, reluctance to submit to authority. There have been some inklings of Forsaken with Whitecloaks (Shaidar Haran, etc...) but if Demandred was somehow able to control the entire Whitecloak army, that would be a fearsome fighting force. When you take into account their alliance and relationship with the Seanchan, his association with the Whitecloaks could be a very interesting development.

What do the experts think?

Terez
09-04-2012, 08:42 PM
Brandon said (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=479#6) Demandred's alter ego was not seen on screen in KOD. Furthermore, the only possible book in which his alter ego might have appeared was TGS, and that's only because it hasn't been ruled out. All the others including TOM have been ruled out.

Tollingtoy
09-04-2012, 08:52 PM
I thought I remembered RJ saying that Demandred's alter ego appeared as of KOD, but you would certainly know more about that than I would.

I also noticed this little bit after Galad kills Valda

...every man including Trom was signaling approval. Every man but Kashgar, that was. Making a deep bow, the Saldaean held out the scabbarded heron-marked blade with both hands.

We know that Demandred never smiles, and Kashgar also does not smile even though he seemed very reluctant to support Valda earlier in the scene. It seems like a lot of attention to pay to a Whitecloak lieutenant, no?

kivo
09-04-2012, 09:06 PM
If he were with the whitecloaks, it would have played out in ToM, which resolved the major whitecloak issues

The Unreasoner
09-04-2012, 09:24 PM
I thought I remembered RJ saying that Demandred's alter ego appeared as of KOD, but you would certainly know more about that than I would.

I also noticed this little bit after Galad kills Valda



We know that Demandred never smiles, and Kashgar also does not smile even though he seemed very reluctant to support Valda earlier in the scene. It seems like a lot of attention to pay to a Whitecloak lieutenant, no?
lmfao...
Maybe he's just a buzzkill. A lot of attention? Some people need names.
Anyway, I think you're reading that scene wrong. Kashgar is the one presenting the heron-marked sword to Galad. Some formality/reverence might be expected.

Why don't you just read the quotes on this topic, put your mind at ease?

Terez
09-04-2012, 09:26 PM
I thought I remembered RJ saying that Demandred's alter ego appeared as of KOD...
Nope. (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=162#8)

Weird Harold
09-04-2012, 10:09 PM
Kashgar was only an under-lieutenant,



To me, this SCREAMS Demandred.

Demandred sees himself as a general -- a GREAT General -- and would never accept an alias where he wasn't completely in charge. Especially not a position as low a figure as an under-lieutenant, where he has no input into important matters and is given menial tasks, like holding the commander's helmet.

GonzoTheGreat
09-05-2012, 03:38 AM
To me, this SCREAMS Demandred. Hooked nose, boyish because of slowing perhaps, reluctance to submit to authority.
Boyish because of slowing?

At the time of the Sealing, LTT was four hundred years old. Even with slowing, he wouldn't have been boyish anymore. Demandred, who was born one day after LTT, was not all that much younger than LTT, so I do not think that he would fit the description "boyish" anymore either.
He could of course be using a weave to conceal his appearance, but I'm not sure that would work inside a Stedding, and we know that Whitecloaks have no hesitation about entering those. And, of course, if he's using the Mirror of Mists, then no similarity would be meaningful anyway.

Tollingtoy
09-05-2012, 03:17 PM
I'm not so sure the Whitecloak arc is completely over. I've also been wondering if there is more going on with Dain Bornhald. I've always chalked up his excessive drinking to the death of his father combined with the events in the Two Rivers, but could there be another reason? He does seem to be trying to forget something, was said to be overzealous and easy to influence by his father, and spent a lot of time with Byar--a known Darkfriend. He was also very eager to have Galad challenge Valda before the duel started.

I know Carridin turned to drinking when the reality of his oaths to the Dark actually meant. Delana and Sherriam both also started acting strangely when they were "supervised" by Forsaken. The Whitecloaks are a huge army with few qualms about attacking Aes Sedai and are also led by someone related to both Rand and Elayne. There is definitely potential for more story with them yet.

You all certainly have valid points, but why would RJ spend so much time describing a character that never appears again? The only thing I can possibly think of is that a seemingly minor character like that got lost in the shuffle when Brandon took over the subsequent books.

Tollingtoy
09-05-2012, 03:18 PM
Boyish because of slowing?



Ok, so maybe I was reaching a bit on that one :)

Terez
09-05-2012, 03:23 PM
You all certainly have valid points, but why would RJ spend so much time describing a character that never appears again?
1. He does it all the time.

2. The point of Kashgar in this scene was a literary trick to make it seem all that much cooler when Galad was given the sword. RJ leads you to believe that Kashgar will be the one dissenter to Galad's leadership, and then turns that impression around with the presentation of the sword.

Tollingtoy
09-05-2012, 03:34 PM
Not to beat a dead horse, but I looked around for the whole "Demandred hasn't appeared on screen until Knife of Dreams" quote and I have found a huge amount of references to it, but not the actual quote. I'm also pretty sure I remember reading about it before TGS came out. What's up with that? You know far more about WOT quotes than I do, is there just a whole bunch of misinformation out there?

Terez
09-05-2012, 03:37 PM
Not to beat a dead horse, but I looked around for the whole "Demandred hasn't appeared on screen until Knife of Dreams" quote and I have found a huge amount of references to it, but not the actual quote. I'm also pretty sure I remember reading about it before TGS came out. What's up with that? You know far more about WOT quotes than I do, is there just a whole bunch of misinformation out there?
I linked the quote where Brandon said Demandred's alter ego was not seen on screen in KOD. I also linked the only comment RJ ever made concerning whether or not his alter ego had been seen on screen. That confirmed said alter ego had not been seen on screen as of COT, and Brandon extended that to KOD. If you're looking for a quote that doesn't exist, then good luck. :p I know every quote in the database on this subject; I put most of them in there myself.

PS—I can understand how you might have been led to that conclusion. Before Brandon ever said anything on the subject (before TGS came out), the common fan wisdom was that we knew (from RJ) that Demandred's alter ego had not been seen on screen as of COT, but there was a possibility that his alter ego had been in KOD, because RJ never commented on that. So a lot of people were looking for his alter ego in KOD until Brandon extended the exclusion to KOD.

Tollingtoy
09-05-2012, 03:44 PM
Makes sense. I'm aware of your quote master abilities, which is why I asked first :)

What are your thoughts on a Demandred Whitecloak connection, even if it isn't Kashgar. I've never thought about this much until last night, but the conventional wisdom was that Mesaana, Semirhage and Demandred were working together. With Mesaana in the White Tower, Semirhage with the Seanchan, Demandred would make sense with the Whitecloaks and would fit with Sammael's "events to the south" comment. The WC and Seanchan alliance also makes this curious, I'd say.

Terez
09-05-2012, 03:55 PM
The only Forsaken we know of who were involved with the Whitecloaks were Ishamael/Moridin and Sammael himself. The highest-ranking Darkfriend in the Whitecloaks was Jaichim Carridin, and when Niall ordered him to infest Altara and Murandy with fake Dragonsworn, Carridin was only worried that it would conflict with his orders from Ishamael to find and kill Rand. Now, Sammael definitely might have included those Dragonsworn infestation in his 'events to the south', but we (unlike Sammael) know those orders came from Pedron Niall, who was not a Darkfriend (by his own thoughts). Sammael was giving Carridin orders in ACOS, and after that Carridin and Shiaine were reporting to Moridin.

Weird Harold
09-05-2012, 04:03 PM
The Whitecloaks are a huge army ...

:confused:

Galad commands 7,000 Whitecloaks and he commands the majority of surviving Whitecloaks. He picked up the remaining Whitecloaks when Asunawa was killed, but nothing is said about the breakdown of Whitecloaks to Amadicians in the 10,000 Asunawa intercepted him with, but there is also no breakdown of the butcher's bill after the shadowspawn attack after Perrin's trial.

At most, Galad commands 17,000 at Merrilor, and probably half that number. That is hardly a "huge" army when other factions command an order of magnitude more -- For example, the borderlanders combined army is over a hundred thousand, IIRC.

The Unreasoner
09-05-2012, 04:04 PM
Why the whitecloaks? They're weaker than most of the modern forces, smaller, and until ToM in relatively unimportant positions. I think the Legion is far more likely.

And is Byar a Darkfriend? I sort of doubt it, but do you have a quote?

Tollingtoy
09-05-2012, 04:08 PM
I was always under the impression he was the one that Grendael mentioned having control over, perhaps just speculation on my part. I haven't read TOM since it came out, but there wasn't any definite confirmation there?

Terez
09-05-2012, 04:10 PM
I have quote:

Gaunt face set with grim purpose, Byar galloped with the sinking sun behind him and never looked back. He had seen all he needed to, all he could with that accursed fog. The legion was dead, Lord Captain Geofram Bornhald was dead, and there was only one explanation for that; Darkfriends had betrayed them, Darkfriends like that Perrin of the Two Rivers. That word he had to carry to Dain Bornhald, the Lord Captain's son, with the Children of the Light watching Tar Valon. But he had worse to tell, and to none less than Pedron Niall himself. He had to tell what he had seen in the sky above Falme. He flogged his horse with his reins and never looked back.

PS—And another quote:

The woman turned back to a muscular young man who held a golden tray with another goblet and a tall matching pitcher. Both wore diaphanous white robes, and neither gave so much as the flicker of an eye to the gateway, opening into his apartments in Illian. When she served Graendal, the woman's face was a portrait of worship. There was never any trouble about speaking in front of her servants and pets, though they would not number a single Friend of the Dark among them. She distrusted Friends of the Dark, claiming they were too easily swayed, but the level of Compulsion used on those who served her personally left little room for anything beyond adoration.

Tsofu
09-05-2012, 04:12 PM
I was always under the impression he was the one that Grendael mentioned having control over, perhaps just speculation on my part. I haven't read TOM since it came out, but there wasn't any definite confirmation there?
Tollingtoy?

D00d! You are waaaaay behind the curve on this, speculating w/out having read ToM is like, um, jumping out of the plane w/out a chute? Seriously hombre, get the book. Just saying.

Tsofu

The Unreasoner
09-05-2012, 04:13 PM
Thanks Terez.
So, not a DF, then.

@Tollingtoy:
Compulsion seems likely.

Terez
09-05-2012, 04:14 PM
I was always under the impression he was the one that Grendael mentioned having control over, perhaps just speculation on my part. I haven't read TOM since it came out, but there wasn't any definite confirmation there?
Tollingtoy?

D00d! You are waaaaay behind the curve on this, speculating w/out having read ToM is like, um, jumping out of the plane w/out a chute? Seriously hombre, get the book. Just saying.
.

Terez
09-05-2012, 04:17 PM
Thanks Terez.
So, not a DF, then.

@Tollingtoy:
Compulsion seems likely.
And probably not much. Byar wouldn't need much. Case in point: Ituralde. And another quote, from the same chapter:

Sammael would not be surprised if every Domani who visited here left believing that this land had been handed down in her family since the Breaking. She used Compulsion so often like a hammer that one might forget that she could wield the weaker forms of it with great delicacy, twisting a mind’s path so subtly that even the closest examination might miss every trace of her. In fact, she might have been the best at that who ever lived.

Tsofu
09-05-2012, 04:19 PM
Hmmm, since one can't read a book before it comes out, I logically, (though perhaps erroneously) read that to mean Tollingtoy has not read ToM.

~le sigh~ My bad

Tsofu

Tollingtoy
09-05-2012, 04:32 PM
"Haven't read TOM since it came out", meaning that I only read it one time

Tollingtoy
09-05-2012, 04:35 PM
Thanks Terez, makes sense.

Last wrinkle to this thread. Any suspicion around Dain Bornhald? RJ spends an awful lot of time talking about how different he is and how drunk and derelict he has become. Is that purely because of his dad and the battles in the Two Rivers?

Terez
09-05-2012, 04:42 PM
I think the take-away from TOM is that Dain Bornhald is pretty face value. He was a bit of a prick before his dad died, but after that he was a mess because he took it badly. Byar was always the crazy one, and it was Dain's misfortune that his father chose Byar to relay the message of his death. Incidentally Dain also had a run-in with Rand (and Mat) in Baerlon. Eventually he saw all of them including Perrin at the gate, but he doesn't appear to have remembered that when he sees Perrin again. But maybe he would remember Rand, the blademaster who stood him down in Baerlon. Rand wasn't a blademaster yet, but he was suffering from post-Bela syndrome and feeling a little cocky, so he bluffed it fairly well.

The Unreasoner
09-05-2012, 05:42 PM
I agree that Dain is pretty much 'what you see is what you get' (at least as far as future plot threads go), but one thing that isn't mentioned all that often is that Dain may be feeling some guilt covering up the murders of Perrin's family. Fain did it, but it might be seen as the Whitecloaks under Dain. Maybe Dain was projecting or something, he needed to believe that Perrin killed Geofram (so it's an eye for an eye), because otherwise, his guilt might overwhelm him.

Lost One
12-14-2012, 08:10 PM
I think Dain is a low-tertiary character that will have a specific semi-vital part to play in AMoL.

An example is the primary characters are Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve,Avienda, Min Ishmael/Moriden, Shaidar Haran, Fain, Moraine.

Secondaries are, but not limited to: Lan, Loial, Tom, Galad, Gawyn, Elyas, Tuon, Morgase, Bashere, Siuan, Cadsuanne, Taim, various senior/prominant Aes Sedai, Sorilea, the Chosen

Tertiaries might be: Egeannin/Leilwan, Bayle Doman, Julian, Dain, Logain, Dobraine, Less prominant AS/Ashaman, Tylee Kirghan, Logain, Talannvor. Less prominant chosen.. Moghiedian.

Everyone else.

I think the teriary may/can rise to secondary, or secondary drop down as thier Plot line lessens or gets woven into something else. For example, who whould have imagined how much we would see of D.Bayle in the beginning. And Liandrin who seemed prominant is for the most part woven out, I think.

GonzoTheGreat
12-15-2012, 04:03 AM
I think the teriary may/can rise to secondary, or secondary drop down as thier Plot line lessens or gets woven into something else. For example, who whould have imagined how much we would see of D.Bayle in the beginning. And Liandrin who seemed prominant is for the most part woven out, I think.
You're not exactly the first to think of that, you know:
If the Great Lord meant to make al’Thor Nae’blis, she herself would kneel to him – and wait for a slip to deliver him into her hands. Immortality meant infinite time to wait. There would always be other patients to amuse her in the meantime. What troubled her was Shaidar Haran. She had never been more than an indifferent tcheran player, but Shaidar Haran was a new piece on the board, one of unknown strength and purpose. And one daring way to capture your opponent’s High Counselor and turn it to your side was to sacrifice your Spires in a false attack. She would kneel if need be, for as long as need be, but she would not be sacrificed.