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Ozymandias
09-10-2012, 12:02 PM
I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere, but I missed it, so I'll ask again for the abbreviated response.

Have we ever determined whether the Seanchan version of the Prophecies of the Dragon are equally valid as the Westland version, or are they a partial corruption. Tuon thinks of several prophecies that come true, and its not impossible that valid Foretellings happened over there, but a lot of their Prophecy regarding Rand seems a little too conveniently tailored to their own social/political realities (i.e. him kneeling to the Empress).

suttree
09-10-2012, 12:08 PM
I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere, but I missed it, so I'll ask again for the abbreviated response.

Have we ever determined whether the Seanchan version of the Prophecies of the Dragon are equally valid as the Westland version, or are they a partial corruption. Tuon thinks of several prophecies that come true, and its not impossible that valid Foretellings happened over there, but a lot of their Prophecy regarding Rand seems a little too conveniently tailored to their own social/political realities (i.e. him kneeling to the Empress).

The original Seanchan version of the Kareathon seems to be correct. The ones that Luthair brought with him that they now regard as "pure" appear to be tampered with by Ishy however.

GonzoTheGreat
09-10-2012, 12:10 PM
They have their own, valid, Prophecies. However, it's still possible that that single bit is a falsification intended to drive a wedge between the Seanchan and the Dragon. If so, then it happened with the copy of the KC which Luthair Paendrag took with him. It is also possible the bit spelling out how he 'shall bind the nine moons to serve him' was excised from that copy.
If so, then both changes were probably done by Ishamael, who engineered the conquest of the Seanchan by Luthair, and had a clear motive for making this kind of trouble.

RJ has said that the Seanchan prophecies in general were accurate, but I don't think he has ever said anything explicitly about these two passages.

Great Lord of the Dark
09-10-2012, 08:30 PM
I think they were both true. Ishamael needn't have been involved for transcription errors or for translators to interpret differently. Luthair's language prevailed after the consolidation but whatever the Seanchan spoke also had its roots in the Old tongue, so they could have read the original prophecies Luthair brought with him and said the correct translation for a particular old tongue word is actually something other than what the Mainlanders said. Even translators on this side of the ocean diasgreed frequently.

The Court of the Nine Moons and the Royal Family may only have come into existence decades, maybe centuries after Luthair first arrived. No reason to excise that passage from the Prophecies.

If Ishamael did tamper, he likely only introduced true elements from his own book of Dark Prophecy. He always likes to stay close to the truth when he misleads.

finnssss
09-10-2012, 09:49 PM
I think they were both true. Ishamael needn't have been involved for transcription errors or for translators to interpret differently. Luthair's language prevailed after the consolidation but whatever the Seanchan spoke also had its roots in the Old tongue, so they could have read the original prophecies Luthair brought with him and said the correct translation for a particular old tongue word is actually something other than what the Mainlanders said. Even translators on this side of the ocean diasgreed frequently.

The Court of the Nine Moons and the Royal Family may only have come into existence decades, maybe centuries after Luthair first arrived. No reason to excise that passage from the Prophecies.

If Ishamael did tamper, he likely only introduced true elements from his own book of Dark Prophecy. He always likes to stay close to the truth when he misleads.

It has to be more than just a few translation differences...

tPoD CHP 24 (Miraj PoV):
The Prophecies of the Dragon had been known in Seanchan even before Luthair Paendrag began the Consolidation. In corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought. Miraj had seen several volumes of The Karaethon Cycle printed in these lands, and they were in corrupted form too--not one mentioned him serving the Crystal Throne!--but the Prophecies held men's minds and hearts still.

Terez
09-10-2012, 10:40 PM
Brandon confirmed (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=455#17) there has been some tampering. My belief is that it will make little difference in the end since both sides believe their prophecies to be true.

GonzoTheGreat
09-11-2012, 03:51 AM
The Court of the Nine Moons and the Royal Family may only have come into existence decades, maybe centuries after Luthair first arrived. No reason to excise that passage from the Prophecies.
Could you please run this past me just a trifle slower?

The bit which I fail to understand is why, if their Prophecies say that the Dragon Reborn will "bind the nine moons to serve him" any ruler in his right mind would adopt the name "Nine Moons" at all. It's a bit like an American presidential candidate running on "I think I'm the Antichrist, and if I am not, then I wish I was". Not very believable, to say the least.

So it makes more sense that the Nine Moons reference was taken out before Luthair's descendants managed to conquer that particular place, and now they (Tuon) don't know what should and shouldn't be done.

Similarly, if there'd been a reference to the Dragon serving the Crystal Throne, then the Amyrlin would've been sitting on one.

Weird Harold
09-11-2012, 04:54 AM
They have their own, valid, Prophecies. However, it's still possible that that single bit is a falsification intended to drive a wedge between the Seanchan and the Dragon. If so, then it happened with the copy of the KC which Luthair Paendrag took with him.

It should be noted that the Essanik Cycle is NOT the same thing as the Karetheon Cycle -- any more than the Aiel Prophecies or Jendai Prophecies are the same thing at the KC.

As noted by BG Miraj, the KC was known in Seanchan before Luthair's arrival. The "corruption" of Seanchan Prophecy only involves the differences between pre-luthar and post-luthair version of the KC. There is, (or should be,) no question of the Essanik cycle being corrupted.

However, the bottom line is that we only positively know what BG Miraj revealed in the quote above: The copy brought by Luthair is considered the correct version by the Seanchan and "corrupted" copies don't mention the DR serving the Crystal Throne.

The Unreasoner
09-11-2012, 05:29 AM
27. Essanik, so questionable authenticity. Maybe only the Karaethon sent over was actively corrupted, but the Essanik were spoken by damane. So post-Luthair. And the transcribers may have seen fit to slip in a little imperial propaganda. Maybe there was a mention of the Dragon approaching the most powerful woman (or just person, but if it's specifically a woman it may explain why Luthair's son was one of the last Emperors of Seanchan, if not the last. A little bit like forcing the prophecy) in the world with humility and respect, and his need to acknowledge her power and/or success. Now, it may have been fulfilled when Rand saw Egwene in the White Tower: he acknowledged her power and success, wasn't arrogant, and she might have been the world's most powerful woman at the time. Of course, this isn't in the KC, instead there is the Foretelling on the Amyrlin's anger (which was also misinterpreted). But a devout imperial transcriber may have honestly thought it was obviously referring to the current Empress, and may have written it down as such.
From my old prophecy thread. The Essanik was spoken post-Luthair, by Imperial damane. I would find the Essanik suspect by that alone, whatever tongue it was spoken in originally.

Weird Harold
09-11-2012, 06:24 AM
From my old prophecy thread. The Essanik was spoken post-Luthair, by Imperial damane. I would find the Essanik suspect by that alone, whatever tongue it was spoken in originally.

Whether the Essanik is accurate or not has no bearing on which version of the Karetheon Cycle is accurate.

I would tend to rely on the Pattern to ensure accurate transcription from the original source; Prophecy does no good if there isn't an accurate transcription of the original source. :D

I would expect some suppression of unpalatable passages, but doubt that any alterations were done for imperial reasons. Suspicions about Ishamael's tampering with Luthair's copy suggest there may have been alterations for non-imperial reasons, but the same could be said of westland (uncorrupted) copies of the KC. We tend to trust those copies of the KC, though because RJ said "Prophecy always comes true," and at that time, we only knew of the KC (and Aiel) prophecies.

GonzoTheGreat
09-11-2012, 07:01 AM
The Prophecies of the Dragon had been known in Seanchan even before Luthair Paendrag began the Consolidation. In corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought. Miraj had seen several volumes of The Karaethon Cycle printed in these lands, and they were in corrupted form too--not one mentioned him serving the Crystal Throne!--but the Prophecies held men's minds and hearts still.
And who said that those pre-Luthairian copies were corrupted?
The Seanchan imperial family, which, it just so happens, had the 'correct' version. Which, funnily, happens to be different from the version which is found on the mainland now too.

The simplest and most believable explanation by far is that those early Seanchan copies weren't corrupted at all; that they were the same as the version that is now available in Randland. Of course, because of the censorship used, it's impossible to determine this now, unless RJ left something about this in his notes.

Weird Harold
09-11-2012, 04:14 PM
And who said that those pre-Luthairian copies were corrupted?

Interestingly, BG Miraj apparently knew which passages/verses to check for "corruption." That suggests that there is still an active campaign to suppress "corrupted versions" in Seanchan; old copies still turning up often enough to keep the knowledge of specific differences alive?

Sadly, the only difference we know of is the "serving the Empress" clue given here. Most people make the connection between Moiraine's cryptic mention of "bind the nine moons to him" as the obvious text for "serve the Empress of the Nine Moons" to have replaced, but that is only a guess.

Changing one line, while significant to the plot, doesn't rise to the level of "much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought." We may never know what other differences there are that rise to that level.

Great Lord of the Dark
09-11-2012, 09:08 PM
Some of the others seem vastly more knowledgeable about the relevant prophecy quotes than I, who was merely speaking from what I recall of Seanchan history.

Luthair found a continent of warring and scheming factions, and began a conquest which only ended centuries later, when his bloodline was already firmly established as the herdeitary rulers of the continent. Either the Court of the Nine Moons predates Luthair's arrival and he took it for his own , or (more likely I think) his success was such that he or his followers named the Court of the Nine Moons in the belief that this would ensure that the Dragon knelt to the Royal Family, thus keeping the Empress at the pinnacle of society. Nothing, not even the Dragon should displace the Empress from her station.

The point being that the Court could have been named well after the Luthair version became the established bible of the Seanchan nobility.

Weird Harold
09-12-2012, 01:18 AM
...

The point being that the Court could have been named well after the Luthair version became the established bible of the Seanchan nobility.

The problem with that is that we've seen no evidence that "the nine moons" are even mentioned in the Luthair version.

The only mention of "the nine moons" in prophecy that we've seen is the cryptic mention by Moiraine as an example of a passage that is not understood. (I'm not counting the *finn's answer to Mat as Prophecy.)

BG Miraj mentions the DR serving the Empress (MSLF) and Tuon mentions prophecy requiring the Dragon Reborn to kneel before the Crystal Throne -- Neither makes any connection to "the nine moons."

Common consensus is that the "bind the nine moons" passage is missing from the Luthair version and "kneel before the Crystal Throne" and/or "serve the Empress (MSLF)" has been added -- they seem mutually exclusive clauses.

Jasin Natael
09-12-2012, 06:23 AM
Why mutually exclusive? It's possible to bind someone to you by serving them (what Moiraine did to get Rand to trust her.) And kneeling before the Crystal Throne doesn't mean a lot. Rand is capable of showing respect to get what he wants (in the White Tower, to the Borderlanders, etc.)

Interestingly, it's phrased as kneel before the crystal throne. Everyone else prostrates themself before the empress, suggesting that the Dragon has some special rank.

Weird Harold
09-12-2012, 04:03 PM
...And kneeling before the Crystal Throne doesn't mean a lot. ...

From the Encyclopedia WOT:
Crystal Throne (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/crystal_throne.html)

The throne of the Empress of Seanchan in the Court of the Nine Moons in Seandar.
References

Guide - The Crystal Throne is, in fact, a ter'angreal that inspires awe in all who approach.

Kneeling before the Crystal Throne is NOT a mere symbolic act.

Jasin Natael
09-13-2012, 09:08 AM
Are the effects permanent or do they fade as soon as someone leaves the room? Rand is smart enough to realise 'wait...it's not like me to feel in awe of a chair'. It's not a huge problem.

GonzoTheGreat
09-13-2012, 09:42 AM
Are the effects permanent or do they fade as soon as someone leaves the room? Rand is smart enough to realise 'wait...it's not like me to feel in awe of a chair'. It's not a huge problem.
Depends:
Few easily shook off the awe they felt, kneeling before the Crystal Throne, with the thirst to obey drying their tongues.
Of course, we don't know upon what it depends, which is a bit of a problem when it comes to building solid theories.

Weird Harold
09-13-2012, 01:37 PM
Are the effects permanent or do they fade as soon as someone leaves the room? Rand is smart enough to realise 'wait...it's not like me to feel in awe of a chair'. It's not a huge problem.

Part of the problem with kneeling before the Crystal Throne isn't really the "awe" produced, but that n trying to force that Prophecy, the Seanchan would drag Rand to Seanchan and thus out of position for T'G. (somewhat like Rommel being back in Germany on D-Day instead of where he could command the defense of Normandy.)

The ter'angreal aspect is what makes the "bind" and "serve" passages mutually exclusive, not necessarily what makes the corruption of the Prophecy effective for the Shadow.

finnssss
09-13-2012, 05:58 PM
It should be noted that the effect is resistible as mentioned by RJ during the KoD tour.


Mad Cao:
I then asked if Semirhage was somehow immune to the effects of the Crystal Throne.


Robert Jordan:
He said that she certainly was.

Whether it's her ties/vows to the DO that make her immune, that she has a natural resistance to compulsion like Nynaeve and Morgase or if holding the power does it, we don't know for sure BUT since we know that someone holding the power is immune to compulsion, that would seem the most logical answer imo.

Zombie Sammael
09-14-2012, 05:42 AM
It should be noted that the effect is resistible as mentioned by RJ during the KoD tour.




Whether it's her ties/vows to the DO that make her immune, that she has a natural resistance to compulsion like Nynaeve and Morgase or if holding the power does it, we don't know for sure BUT since we know that someone holding the power is immune to compulsion, that would seem the most logical answer imo.

Rand also has the "indomitable will" perk, so if Ny or Morg were able to resist the CT, he would doubtless be able to.

Sinistrum
09-14-2012, 12:05 PM
Whether it's her ties/vows to the DO that make her immune, that she has a natural resistance to compulsion like Nynaeve and Morgase or if holding the power does it, we don't know for sure BUT since we know that someone holding the power is immune to compulsion, that would seem the most logical answer imo.

This raises a very interesting possibility that has probably occurred to others but not me before. We know that ter'angreal can produce specific weaves of the OP (such as the rod that produces BF that BA stole). The effect of the Crystal Throne seems very similar to the minor Compulsion that Verin used on the White Tower faction Aes Sedai to get them to swear allegiance to Rand. What if the Crystal Throne is a ter'angreal designed to inflict weaves of Compulsion on those around it?

As for the differences in the Seanchan vs. Westlands KC, I think the obvious answer is tampering is responsible for the differences. Whether it was Ishy or a Counsel of Nicea type event after the Consolidation began is up for debate. There isn't any evidence either way though I tend to lean toward Ishy. Its just a little too convenient to me that have the Empire that Ishy spawned have a version of the KC so diametrically opposed to the Westland version and it being one of the major bones of contention standing in the way of an alliance between Rand and the Seanchan.

Weird Harold
09-14-2012, 02:58 PM
This raises a very interesting possibility that has probably occurred to others but not me before. We know that ter'angreal can produce specific weaves of the OP (such as the rod that produces BF that BA stole). The effect of the Crystal Throne seems very similar to the minor Compulsion that Verin used on the White Tower faction Aes Sedai to get them to swear allegiance to Rand. What if the Crystal Throne is a ter'angreal designed to inflict weaves of Compulsion on those around it?

The BWB says "causes awe" rather than compulsion. It is certainly similar to the Glamourie style compulsion Moghedien used on the Supergirls, where a simple "desire to please" was the main effect.

As for the differences in the Seanchan vs. Westlands KC, I think the obvious answer is tampering is responsible for the differences. Whether it was Ishy or a Counsel of Nicea type event after the Consolidation began is up for debate. There isn't any evidence either way though I tend to lean toward Ishy.

There is Ishamael's boast of "a doom yet to come" which fits with the theory that he tampered with Luthair's copy of the KC (and later influenced the adoption of Luthoair's version as the true version.) Most people associate the "Doom Yet To Come" with the Seanchan invasion in general, but the timing is right for a more specific meaning as well.

GonzoTheGreat
09-15-2012, 03:37 AM
The BWB says "causes awe" rather than compulsion. It is certainly similar to the Glamourie style compulsion Moghedien used on the Supergirls, where a simple "desire to please" was the main effect.
The BWB is supposedly sort of written by a Randland AS or something (someone) like that, or a committee of such. The author then would have gotten her information second or third hand from people who probably couldn't channel themselves, which makes detecting compulsion rather haphazard.

Weird Harold
09-15-2012, 05:00 AM
The BWB is supposedly sort of written ...

Which is why I added the next sentence after, "the BWB says..." :rolleyes:

in case you missed it: "It is certainly similar to the Glamourie style compulsion..."

The Unreasoner
09-15-2012, 09:35 PM
It would be nice if we really had the actual text in question. The people who think Rand will kneel before the Crystal Throne, either because the Prophecy is valid or because it won't make a difference...how?

This is why I would like an actual excerpt. Because the Crystal Throne itself is probably in Seandar, in the middle of a civil war that probably makes everything Randland has seen so far look relatively small in comparison. And that's if the Throne wasn't moved by any of the factions for any of a thousand reasons. I suppose now that Fortuona has Traveling, she could send a force to Seanchan and take it, but there are still many questions. That would make too much sense, the Throne might not be there, it's the epicenter of chaos...

Weird Harold
09-15-2012, 10:05 PM
...the Crystal Throne itself is probably in Seandar, in the middle of a civil war ...

Worse, the Crystal Throne is probably the focus of that Civil War; Whoever holds the Crystal Throne rules Seanchan.

I imagine any time any one faction looks like it might claim the Throne, all of the other factions make a temporary truce to work against the front-runner.

The Unreasoner
09-15-2012, 11:43 PM
Worse, the Crystal Throne is probably the focus of that Civil War; Whoever holds the Crystal Throne rules Seanchan.

I imagine any time any one faction looks like it might claim the Throne, all of the other factions make a temporary truce to work against the front-runner.
Exactly. While I think it's too much to hope for that the faction with the Throne rules Seanchan, it will inevitably be the epicenter of chaos.

Sinistrum
09-16-2012, 12:36 AM
There is Ishamael's boast of "a doom yet to come" which fits with the theory that he tampered with Luthair's copy of the KC (and later influenced the adoption of Luthoair's version as the true version.) Most people associate the "Doom Yet To Come" with the Seanchan invasion in general, but the timing is right for a more specific meaning as well.

It would be the kind of move he would make. He always seems to calculate more than a few moves ahead in whatever game he plays. Also, it struck me as kind of odd that out of all the books that could have been taken along for the ride on that Voyage, the KC was one of the ones that was picked. Doesn't exactly strike me as light reading, or reading that is particularly socially acceptable outside of academia.

The people who think Rand will kneel before the Crystal Throne, either because the Prophecy is valid or because it won't make a difference...how?

A better question is why? Yeah yeah he needs the Seanchan. But he's also got a fountain of hope coming out of his ass right now. He was extremely close to getting Tuon to cave while he was doing his Mordeth impress. It shouldn't be any harder than getting the Hall of the Tower to shut up and sit still. Additionally, Rand hasn't ever been the kneeling type, epiphany or no. He pretty much told Egwene to piss off and that he was doing things his way in the Hall. He was just a lot more respectful than that. On top of that, him kneeling to Tuon pretty much puts her in charge of the Last Battle. Can't see that going well. Can't see it going well with anyone but Rand in charge really. You don't abdicate the responsibility you were specifically born for at the last moment just to make another friend.

Weird Harold
09-16-2012, 02:18 AM
... Also, it struck me as kind of odd that out of all the books that could have been taken along for the ride on that Voyage, the KC was one of the ones that was picked. Doesn't exactly strike me as light reading, or reading that is particularly socially acceptable outside of academia.

ETA:
A thought occurs: Could Ishamael have convinced Luthair that Luthair was a "child of prophecy" and set him on a course guided by a tampered copy of the KC?

BG Miraj, in the passage quoted earlier, says that Westland copies are "greatly different," even though he only mentions one point of difference. What else might have been changed and how did those changes affect Luthair's decision-making?

...On top of that, him kneeling to Tuon ...

Tuon makes it fairly clear that it isn't kneeling to the Empress (MSLF,) but kneeling before the Crystal Throne that is specified in Prophecy. I doubt that Rand would kneel before Fortuona anyway, but that wouldn't be the disaster people make it out to be.

neurotopia
09-16-2012, 01:03 PM
Tuon makes it fairly clear that it isn't kneeling to the Empress (MSLF,) but kneeling before the Crystal Throne that is specified in Prophecy. I doubt that Rand would kneel before Fortuona anyway, but that wouldn't be the disaster people make it out to be.

Guys I think we're looking at this the wrong way. It is not uncommon for the royalty themselves to be referred to as "the throne". Rand need not kneel to the actual Crystal Throne, but those who embody it.

Forget the Empress. There is a Seanchan Emperor now, married to the Empress who has the rightful claim to the throne. Who is about to visit with Rand, bearing a very special gift. Someone old, someone... Blue? :)

Rand may very well fall to his knees when that happens.

Weird Harold
09-16-2012, 04:49 PM
Guys I think we're looking at this the wrong way. It is not uncommon for the royalty themselves to be referred to as "the throne".

You might have a point if the CT wasn't a ter'angreal.

The Unreasoner
09-16-2012, 07:27 PM
Forget the Empress. There is a Seanchan Emperor now, married to the Empress who has the rightful claim to the throne.
There is no Emperor, nor has there been for about a thousand years. Just because Mat married her doesn't necessarily make him more than Prince. Have you ever heard of Prince Phillip?

And what WH said on T'A.

and @Sini:
Just because the why is 'more' important doesn't mean the 'how' is not worth discussing. Of course, only people who believe Rand will kneel need to be able to answer. Those who think he won't can simply ask it.

boy
09-17-2012, 04:12 AM
I assume the Crystal Throne is a binding chair, and its effect is that the words of whoever is sitting on it become more imposing and binding to those before it.

See the Aiel clan chiefs' attitude to Rand sitting on chairs near them: they consider it incredibly offensive because they believe chairs should only be used when passing judgement. Seems like cultural memory.

That and 'binding chairs' being the only other magical chair we hear of - which I find unlikely to be a coincidence.

Terez
09-17-2012, 04:30 AM
We've seen a binding chair; the Black Ajah hunters in the White Tower used one on Talene Minly.

Despite its name, the ter’angreal looked nothing like a chair, just a large rectangular block of marbled gray. No one knew what it was made of, but the material was hard as steel everywhere except the slanted top. The statuesque Green sank a little into that, and somehow it molded itself to her no matter how she twisted. Doesine’s weavings flowed into the only break anywhere in the Chair, a palm-sized rectangular hole in one side with tiny notches spaced unevenly around it. Criminals caught in Tar Valon were brought down here to experience the Chair of Remorse, to experience carefully selected consequences of their crimes. On release, they invariably fled the island. There was very little crime in Tar Valon. Queasily, Seaine wondered whether this was anything like the use the Chair had been put to in the Age of Legends.
Or at least, it seems to be closer to what Sammael was thinking of when he mentioned it—a way to deal with non-channeling criminals.

Boli
09-17-2012, 07:47 AM
Hmmm, I just had an interesting thought:

There is a lot of symbolism within the WoT books more-so with banners, sigils and thrones; much like there is on our own world.


Crystal, you think fragile, and shattering you do NOT want to name your throne after a material which breaks easily. You might as well say "the empress may she lives forever rules from a fragile seat liable to shatter into a thousand shards (factions).

Callandor is refered to as the "sword that isn't a sword" is also made of "crystal" or glass. Crystals are also clear see-through and this got me thinking about the way the old-tongue is often miss-interpreted or its original meaning lost.

The original text could have meant the Dragon will bow before *NO* throne; or there is no throne the dragon will bow before. A Warning within the dragon prophecies to rulers attempting to use him.

With the way it has mentioned repeatedly as how the old tongue is often miss-interpreted; Ishy could have easily skewed the prophecies in such a way that instead of it saying "no throne" it says "throne, that isn't a throne" which is translated as a see-through or glass throne... a crystal throne.

He was after all an award winning philosopher who wrote in the old tongue twisting meanings of the words should be no problem to him.

Weird Harold
09-17-2012, 04:03 PM
The original text could have meant the Dragon will bow before *NO* throne; or there is no throne the dragon will bow before. A Warning within the dragon prophecies to rulers attempting to use him.

One major problem with your idea is that the Crystal Throne is actually a throne/ter'angreal made of unbreakable crystal. Whatever the actual wording -- which have neither version of -- the interpretation leads to an actual throne.

Another major problem is that the common consensus is that the "original wording" doesn't mention anything that could be interpreted as "a crystal throne" or TDR showing any kind of submission to the Seanchan Empress. (MSLF)

Boli
09-18-2012, 03:34 AM
The thing is we only have "evidence" from people who cannot channel and I doubt they are very forthcoming about studying it. I have no doubt there is *something* there; but the entire thing could have been planned by Ishy when he was about using his dark-friend network :)

I was just going from the symbolism angle; which we know rulers like :P