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Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon
10-17-2012, 08:33 PM
What do you suppose would happen if a male channeler, prior to the cleansing of saidin, were to swear on the Oath Rod that he would never go mad?

For that matter, what if any channeler swore on the Oath Rod that they would never die?

Terez
10-17-2012, 09:39 PM
It doesn't work like that. You can only swear concerning matters of free will. For example, we saw what happened when someone was ordered by someone she was Sworn to obey to lie, which she had Sworn not to do. She started choking and would have died if the order hadn't been retracted.

Cortar
10-18-2012, 12:28 AM
What do you suppose would happen if a male channeler, prior to the cleansing of saidin, were to swear on the Oath Rod that he would never go mad?

For that matter, what if any channeler swore on the Oath Rod that they would never die?

As mentioned it wouldn't work, but on a similar line, I guess they could have just swore not to channel....

GonzoTheGreat
10-18-2012, 03:25 AM
As mentioned it wouldn't work, but on a similar line, I guess they could have just swore not to channel....
Yes, they could have.
However, a somewhat complicating factor is that the Oath Rod almost certainly doesn't work on male channelers at all, so it is unlikely that it would have had any effect.

Tsofu
10-18-2012, 12:50 PM
Yes, they could have.
However, a somewhat complicating factor is that the Oath Rod almost certainly doesn't work on male channelers at all, so it is unlikely that it would have had any effect.

Really? How did I miss THAT important tidbit? Gonzo, could you steer me to the salient passage, please?

Tsofu

suttree
10-18-2012, 01:29 PM
Yes, they could have.
However, a somewhat complicating factor is that the Oath Rod almost certainly doesn't work on male channelers at all, so it is unlikely that it would have had any effect.

What leads you to believe that? Possibly different numbered rods for males/females?

frenchie
10-18-2012, 01:38 PM
A Crown of Sword Chapter 40. Except from Encyclopedia WoT.

Sevanna POV - Watching Galina work, Rhiale tells Sevanna that Efalin and the other Wise Ones think Galina admitted killing Desaine. Therava wanted her as gai'shain. Caddar and Maisia appear, dressed as they were six days ago. Caddar gives Sevanna a binder saying he got it yesterday.2 He tells her it is activated by Spirit and that it is only for women who can channel. He implies he has something that will control Rand.3 He mentions a binding chair for those who cannot channel, but he does not know where one is. Caddar brought "traveling boxes," nar'baha. He tells her they need to use them today because Rand is coming with four clans. Rand's bound Aes Sedai taught their Wise Ones how to Travel short distances so they can be here today.4 He tells her the boxes use saidin and a woman must not touch it; they must wait three days before using them again.5 Sevanna thinks Caddar wants gold. She does not think he will betray her, but she takes precautions anyway.6

Tsofu
10-18-2012, 02:03 PM
Thank you, frenchie.

Tsofu

Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon
10-18-2012, 02:16 PM
This is all just speculating for the sake of speculation, so please feel free to ignore it or answer with something along the lines of "stop being foolish;" but...

It doesn't work like that. You can only swear concerning matters of free will.

Is there evidence (from the books or interviews) that supports that? I'm not challenging you - I agree with you, but then I wondered if it was just a presumption (because I think it is a natural & expected presumption, whether or not it's true). And, if so, I wonder if the AS also just presume that the OR is limited to matters of free will.

Also, @Tsofu & Frenchie, thanks for addressing the 2nd part of this follow-up. I also want to know why the OR almost certainly doesn't work on male channelers. However, why would you trust anything "Caddar" told Sevanna?

suttree
10-18-2012, 03:49 PM
A Crown of Sword Chapter 40. Except from Encyclopedia WoT.

2 He tells her it is activated by Spirit and that it is only for women who can channel.

Thanks Frenchie, not sure if I trust him here but cool to see non the less. I wonder if the numbers do have soemthing to do with it?

Weird Harold
10-18-2012, 05:39 PM
...why would you trust anything "Caddar" told Sevanna?

1: He had no obvious reason to lie.

2: that is the only assertion one way or another we have about the Binder working on Saidar wielders only.

Terez
10-18-2012, 07:22 PM
Is there evidence (from the books or interviews) that supports that?
Yes. The incident I already described for you of conflicting oaths.

GonzoTheGreat
10-19-2012, 04:29 AM
2: that is the only assertion one way or another we have about the Binder working on Saidar wielders only.
Well, we also have the fact that the WT Oath Rod was not used to stop male channelers from touching the OP. If it had worked on them, then that would have removed the need for the whole "gentle every male channeler" business.

This is slightly indirect evidence, but I would say that it is rather strong nonetheless. Unless you can come up with another reason why the Oath Rod was never used for the purpose of dealing with male channelers.

Dajoran
10-19-2012, 07:21 AM
Unless you can come up with another reason why the Oath Rod was never used for the purpose of dealing with male channelers.

Well you see, he asked and well... they came up to him with binders filled with women.

GonzoTheGreat
10-19-2012, 09:46 AM
Well you see, he asked and well... they came up to him with binders filled with women.
Yeah, I know:
"I think not," Verin replied calmly. "Even if we could find women willing to bear children by gentled men, there is no guarantee the children would be able to channel, or would be girls. I did suggest that if they wanted to increase the stock, Aes Sedai should be the ones to have the children; themselves, in fact, since they put it forward in the first place. Alviarin was not amused."
Though, admittedly, once he'd thought about it, Logain seems to have agreed to go along with the scheme after all.

Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon
10-19-2012, 12:02 PM
It doesn't work like that. You can only swear concerning matters of free will. For example, we saw what happened when someone was ordered by someone she was Sworn to obey to lie, which she had Sworn not to do. She started choking and would have died if the order hadn't been retracted.

I'm missing the evidence in here, then. I don't see how this situation supports the presumption that you can only swear on matters of free will. It shows that conflicting Oaths could kill you, but does not suggest to me that there are limits to what you can Swear.

Also, regarding "free will," Swearing to "speak no word that is not true" isn't really a matter of free will. Truth is not what you believe to be the case, it's what is the case (i.e., despite a common theme in WoT and real life, truth is not in the eye of the beholder, and it is not the same thing as belief). However, there's a loophole in it, where AS can speak untrue words, as long as the speaker believes them to be true (right?). This is not really a matter of free will, either, because you don't just choose to believe something. If you have to decide whether or not to believe something, then you don't completely believe it (you've already acknowledged the possibility that it's untrue). To me, this is like the ol' Catch 22: if you're able to recognize that you're crazy, then you're not crazy. And, that brings us to the part about male channelers: going mad usually involves believing that you're perfectly fine, in which case, you could theoretically Swear against going mad, without any real consequence, because even when you go mad, you still believe you're not mad.

As for the "why didn't the AS use the OR to bind men against touching the source" question: considering the evidence that we have, I think "because they know little about their ter'angreals and presumed that the OR wouldn't work on a man," or even, "no one thought to try it" are equally as plausible reasons as "they know the OR doesn't work on men." And, the AS have been proven to presume incorrectly at times.

eht slat meit
10-19-2012, 12:15 PM
This is slightly indirect evidence, but I would say that it is rather strong nonetheless. Unless you can come up with another reason why the Oath Rod was never used for the purpose of dealing with male channelers.

Belling the Cat.

Think about that for a moment. You have hundreds, perhaps thousands (given the Age) of psychotic male channelers running around wreaking havoc and breaking the world. Exactly how are you going to hunt down each and every one of them and safely capture him, much less convince the crazed SOB that it's in his best interests to swear the oath?

Rand al'Fain
10-19-2012, 07:38 PM
Belling the Cat.

Think about that for a moment. You have hundreds, perhaps thousands (given the Age) of psychotic male channelers running around wreaking havoc and breaking the world. Exactly how are you going to hunt down each and every one of them and safely capture him, much less convince the crazed SOB that it's in his best interests to swear the oath?

And that's IF he doesn't blast you into oblivion on the spot.

Cortar
10-19-2012, 07:58 PM
Also, I don't think its unrealistic to assume that the knowledge that the binders could work on men was lost with the knowledge about shortened life span, their original purpose, etc

Davian93
10-19-2012, 08:23 PM
Belling the Cat.

Think about that for a moment. You have hundreds, perhaps thousands (given the Age) of psychotic male channelers running around wreaking havoc and breaking the world. Exactly how are you going to hunt down each and every one of them and safely capture him, much less convince the crazed SOB that it's in his best interests to swear the oath?

Well, you could grandfather its usage in by only using the Sane ones.

There's the minor issue of such a thing not likely working on someone who is insane...I mean, if you cant control yourself to stop channeling, how would the Oath Rod stop it? It'd be the same as someone who thinks they're telling the truth.

There's also the possibility that RJ simply never thought about that possibility and its a whoopsy.

The other possibility is that the Oath Rod only works on females...

eht slat meit
10-19-2012, 11:21 PM
Well, you could grandfather its usage in by only using the Sane ones.

Question is, were there any sane ones at that point, and as you say - if the person suddenly goes nuts due to the taint, they can only stop channeling when they're in control.

And of course there's this - binders were used on criminals. It's a great stretch to convince the few remaining sane ones to let them be bound away from the source like common criminals and have their lives cut in half, especially when they (everyone) probably didn't necessarily know yet that every male was doomed to go insane.

The other possibility is that the Oath Rod only works on females...

Doesn't seem like it would be a very effective tool of law if it only worked on half the criminal population, and I seem to recall one of the Forsaken commenting on the oddity of the Aes Sedai using it to bind themselves like criminals, though probably for the same reason.

GonzoTheGreat
10-20-2012, 04:06 AM
Question is, were there any sane ones at that point, and as you say - if the person suddenly goes nuts due to the taint, they can only stop channeling when they're in control.
If nothing else, they could have started with Logain. He still was fairly sane, and given a choice between swearing such an oath or being gentled, I'm not sure he would have opted for the latter.

Is there any proof that Sammael was not killed by Rand's Ward, or at least subdued by it?
There is the fact that making such Wards do multiple things is basically impossible. Rand could make it work against Shadowspawn, or against human channelers, but not both. He picked the first, which meant that it had no effect on Sammael at all.
Actually, Sammael could not even detect it; the only reason why he knew about it was because of his spies.

eht slat meit
10-20-2012, 09:56 AM
If nothing else, they could have started with Logain. He still was fairly sane, and given a choice between swearing such an oath or being gentled, I'm not sure he would have opted for the latter.


??? I was under the impression we were talking about LTT and what they should have done to keep male channelers from running amok. It's pretty obvious the modern Tower has absolutely no clue about the properties of the object they're Swearing on, and it would be unthinkable to have some nutty male channeler use it for that purpose. Even with the friendly neighborhood Cadsuane kicking butt and taking names.

At Logain's point in time, the Tower pretty much had its collective head up its own backside.

GonzoTheGreat
10-20-2012, 11:04 AM
Obviously. However, they've had about 4,000 years in between the times of LTT and Logain, in which there was plenty of opportunity for at least some AS to try this. We also know that at least in the beginning of that period, they did try a lot of things to find a way of handling the problem; one of the results of that was the Domination Band (the E've) which Nynaeve found. Only when everything they'd thought of failed completely and they no longer could think of anything else did they give up.
I do not see any reason to assume they never thought of trying to use the Oath Rod in this context. If someone can give me such a reason (preferably supported from the books) then I may very well reconsider. Until then, the conclusion that the OR does not work on men is far more reasonable than the idea that it would work but just hasn't been tried.

Cabadrin
10-20-2012, 06:29 PM
The Rod "Caddar" gave Sevanna to use to control Rand worked on Galina. Why would "Caddar" give away a Rod that only worked on women? Oops, silly of me, I gave her the wrong Rod?


And, WH ch 13, Graendal:
"If the young man does somehow remove the shadow, well....You who channel saidin will no longer need the Great Lord's special protection. Will he trust your...loyalty...then?"
followed by a Demanderd POV:
During the War of Power, more than a dozen of the Chosen had died of the Great Lord's suspicion.

Apparently, the DO does not use Oaths to control the Forsaken. There are negative effects. Perhaps it is not just the Pattern spinning out new possibilities in preparation for the Last Battle that opens up for the wondergirls to introduce so many inventions. They are not bound by Oaths.

Davian93
10-20-2012, 08:04 PM
Question is, were there any sane ones at that point, and as you say - if the person suddenly goes nuts due to the taint, they can only stop channeling when they're in control.

Given that the Breaking lasted over 300 years and included an offer of Sanctuary by the Ogier where a good number of men stayed in the Stedding while every possibility to reverse the Taint was exhausted, I would suspect that there were some sane ones left.

Davian93
10-20-2012, 08:10 PM
The Rod "Caddar" gave Sevanna to use to control Rand worked on Galina. Why would "Caddar" give away a Rod that only worked on women? Oops, silly of me, I gave her the wrong Rod?


In actuality, he didnt give it to her to control Rand. He gave it to her to control Galina (or any other Aes Sedai...) because she had asked for one. Here's the quote again:


TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 40 - Spears
"If you want to make an Aes Sedai obey you," a man's voice said behind her, "this might help." Incredulous, Sevanna spun about to find Caddar standing there, and beside him the woman—the Aes Sedai—Maisia, both dressed in dark silk and fine lace as they had been six days ago, each with a bulging sack hanging incongruously from one shoulder by a strap. Caddar held out a smooth white rod about a foot long in one dark hand.

And here's the next part of that passage that is the basis for all this back and forth:


TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 40 - Spears
"Women who can channel, Sevanna," Caddar said, following her in. The man's tone was incredibly insolent. His dark eyes shone with open amusement. "You will have to wait until you have al'Thor before I give you what will control him."

"Of course," Caddar went on, "if you mean some other man—There is a thing called a binding chair. Binding people who cannot channel is more difficult than binding those who can. Perhaps a binding chair survived the Breaking, but you will have to wait while I find it."

Cheers.

eht slat meit
10-20-2012, 10:19 PM
Until then, the conclusion that the OR does not work on men is far more reasonable than the idea that it would work but just hasn't been tried.

Of course, rather than a limitation of the OR itself, it might also be that the Aes Sedai are and have been unable to channel the Saidin necessary to bind a male channeler with the male half of the source. Add on that that they couldn't teach the likes of Logain the Saidin spirit weaves necessary to do it himself, any endeavor to do so is an act of futility.

I don't see the OR as a jumped-up conduit for compulsion weaves channeled by whoever activates the rod. It's interacting directly with the intended "victim's" half of the source, and there doesn't seem to be much in the books to suggest that one half of the source may control the other half like that.

GonzoTheGreat
10-21-2012, 04:10 AM
Of course, rather than a limitation of the OR itself, it might also be that the Aes Sedai are and have been unable to channel the Saidin necessary to bind a male channeler with the male half of the source. Add on that that they couldn't teach the likes of Logain the Saidin spirit weaves necessary to do it himself, any endeavor to do so is an act of futility.
Are you sure?

Consider the following method:
Three AS link with a captured male channeler. One of the AS leads the circle. The one leading the circles weaves the appropriate saidin spirit weave to the right spot on the Oath Rod while the male channeler is holding that rod. Then the male says the words of the Oath they've agreed upon.
What reason is there to think that wouldn't work, apart from the "it does not work on males" one that you're not willing to accept as the only one that makes sense?

We know that women and men can link. We know that the AS know it. So they could have come up with this scheme quite easily.
There might be a short period of some danger in between releasing the shield on the male and him being drawn into the circle, in which he could try to fight. But with enough AS standing around, that shouldn't be a serious problem in most of the cases.

Cabadrin
10-21-2012, 05:10 AM
@Davian93:

Thanks. Had forgotten that. So if we are to believe "Caddar", this could refer to the a'dam, or a rod for saidin channelers. A black rod, presumably, but not the fluted or flexible rods we know about.

It would make sense that there is, or was, such a rod. When we hear of the use in AOL, it is said to be used on criminals, not female criminals. Or did I forget that, too?

GonzoTheGreat
10-21-2012, 06:04 AM
Thanks. Had forgotten that. So if we are to believe "Caddar", this could refer to the a'dam, or a rod for saidin channelers. A black rod, presumably, but not the fluted or flexible rods we know about.
And, if we choose not to believe Caddar wholly, then it is still quite possible that he was truthful about the Oath Rod not working on Rand. After all, he had nothing to lose by such honesty in this specific case. If she had both Rand and the OR, she would have tried it out, no matter what she was told by some wetlander. Having her find out he had lied might have led to some trouble, having her discover he was honest and knowledgeable would have improved his position.

And if Sevanna had captured Rand, then Sammael could've started figuring out what to do about it anyway. He could have provided her with a way of controlling the Dragon. He could have worked out a way to kill the captive; he would've liked that. He could have figured out a way of capturing Rand in turn. Or he could have done nothing, and let the Third Age idiots deal with the trouble they'd gotten themselves into, while he was pursuing his own interests.

All in all, he had nothing to lose by telling the truth, and a little bit to lose by being wrong about this detail. So he was more likely than not correct.

Cabadrin
10-21-2012, 06:36 AM
@GonzoTheGreat:

And the white Rod is suggestive. It is reasonable that a white Ter'angreal would be saidar and a black Ter'angreal would saidin.

Weird Harold
10-21-2012, 07:10 AM
@GonzoTheGreat:

And the white Rod is suggestive. It is reasonable that a white Ter'angreal would be saidar and a black Ter'angreal would saidin.


As equally suggestive is that the one given Sevanna is numbered 111 and the one in the White Tower is numbered 3 -- both odd numbers. We've never seen an even numbered binder.

GonzoTheGreat
10-21-2012, 07:21 AM
As equally suggestive is that the one given Sevanna is numbered 111 and the one in the White Tower is numbered 3 -- both odd numbers. We've never seen an even numbered binder.
Maybe they didn't know about even numbers in the AOL? :p

Cabadrin
10-21-2012, 08:15 AM
More likely they didn't know odd numbers are male and even numbers are female, at least that's how I have always pictured them. Probably because that's how it's organized with swedish social security numbers. I think Weird Harold's observation clinches it.

Remains to explain the absence of black/evennumbered rods. Could it be that female channelers were trying to use them against male channelers after the Breaking, and the madmen destroyed most of them?

eht slat meit
10-21-2012, 09:45 AM
Are you sure?

I was indicating a possible answer, so no I'm not sure. Discussing possibilities and haven't discarded anything yet.

The problem with the method you've chosen is in the context of the modern Tower, it's unthinkable. Outrageous. Borderline blasphemous. Foolhardy beyond all reason, and indicative that a sister has abandoned all reason. Recall that when Logain's shenanigans went down, there were no super girls changing the face of the Tower, no mighty Dragons utterly destroying the way they thought about the world. No cleansing the source. Even the adventurous Cadsuane or Moiraine would not have suggested such a thing.

It was not in their character; the world required a paradigm shift.

You mistake "can do" for "would do".

This is why the Tower, as it was, had to be Broken. Too steeped in tradition, too besotted by its own ways and arrogance to even consider something like that. Even though it might have worked.

I say might have, but again it comes back to this: if the OR is nothing more than a weave by one party (it can be the "victim"), followed by words spoken by the target, it's nothing more than a jumped-up compulsion spell, and the use of a ter'angreal seems wholly unnecessary. Moreover, compulsion doesn't cause agelessness.

The point, as far as I can tell, is to use the intended target's own half of the source against themselves. Normally, this would be a woman. And I do like the suggestions that have been made about one type of OR for each gender, though it seems unlikely that special numbering AND color coding would be required. Redundant?

Now that I think about it, have we ever seen a *angreal that can be used by both halves of the Source?

Surmiser
10-21-2012, 09:57 AM
Now that I think about it, have we ever seen a *angreal that can be used by both halves of the Source?

Bowl of the Winds?

GonzoTheGreat
10-21-2012, 11:05 AM
The problem with the method you've chosen is in the context of the modern Tower, it's unthinkable.
Which is only relevant, of course, if the Tower had become that hidebound and unwilling to change before they'd even acquired the Oath Rod. But if that had been the case, then they would not have been willing to start using the thing. Which, in turn, proves that the idea that this method was tried is not outrageous at all.
My suggestion is not so much that they would try it now. It is that they would have tried it in the first couple of centuries (say, until the time of the Trolloc Wars), before they gave up on trying to restore the situation where both men and women could channel.

It was not in their character; the world required a paradigm shift.

You mistake "can do" for "would do".
As I try to make clear, I am saying "would have done in the past", whereas you're arguing "wouldn't do now". Those two may not be incompatible.

Now that I think about it, have we ever seen a *angreal that can be used by both halves of the Source?
The Rhuidean pillars, which don't require the OP at all? (Surmiser's example may be better, but I haven't figured out how to steal credit for that, yet.)

Possibly (though that's a bit speculative) the TAR training devices?
That would explain why Elayne couldn't properly replicate them: doing a good job would have required her to be in a link with a man, so that both saidin and saidar were involved.

Res_Ipsa
10-21-2012, 11:48 AM
The other possibility is that the Oath Rod only works on females...

That may have been Mitt Romney's point when he talked about "binders full of women."

GonzoTheGreat
10-21-2012, 11:56 AM
That may have been Mitt Romney's point when he talked about "binders full of women."
Mittandred?

Weird Harold
10-21-2012, 12:09 PM
...say, until the time of the Trolloc Wars...

IIRC the WT didn't start using the Oath Rod until around the Trolloc Wars (and/or the formation of the BA)

It is entirely possible that the WT didn't possess an Oath Rod until then and/or didn't know what it did or how to use it. By the time they started to use it, the "proper" procedures for dealing with male channelers was already firmly defined, if not set in stone.

FWIW, since we've only seen binders #3 and #111 we've seen less than two percent of those manufactured in the AOL. That's a very small sample to draw any conclusions from. :D

Davian93
10-21-2012, 04:09 PM
That may have been Mitt Romney's point when he talked about "binders full of women."

I still wouldn't vote for him but I'd at least respect his reading choices.

Unfortunately, he's stated that his favorite fictional book is Battlefield Earth (http://www.latimes.com/features/books/jacketcopy/la-ca-jc-obama-romney-reading-20121021,0,1421008.story?track=lat-pick)...one of the worst Sci-Fi books ever written. Though he partially redeems himself with the mention of Ender's Game.

eht slat meit
10-21-2012, 08:53 PM
Which is only relevant, of course, if the Tower had become that hidebound and unwilling to change before they'd even acquired the Oath Rod. But if that had been the case, then they would not have been willing to start using the thing. Which, in turn, proves that the idea that this method was tried is not outrageous at all.

Tried perhaps, but found feasible? See earlier points, and in regards to-

It is that they would have tried it in the first couple of centuries (say, until the time of the Trolloc Wars), before they gave up on trying to restore the situation where both men and women could channel.

I question whether this would actually have been the case. LTT screwed up, screwed up bad, and so badly that nobody saw it coming. I mean, we see it in the opening of the series. I don't think he'd have been able to off his entire family and become the Kinslayer if anyone had seen it coming. The taint toxic-dumped the male half of the source, creating an instant disaster of global proportions.

It's like those global disaster movies you see - is it really reasonable or rational in the middle of a disaster in process, where the disaster involves thousands (?) of men going insane, blowing things up and slaughtering everyone around them no matter how close they are in family?

Bearing in mind that there are STILL Forsaken alive and untrapped outside the Bore at this point, and conducting a War against the forces of Light.

Is the reaction in the underground bunker really going to be: Hey, I bet we could track each of these guys down individually and make them swear not to use the source!

Circumstances killed them the first time, stupidity the second time. In between, Ishamael and fixing the mess got in the way.

As I try to make clear, I am saying "would have done in the past", whereas you're arguing "wouldn't do now". Those two may not be incompatible.

I'm inclined to believe that while it *could* have happened. the probability of it happening that way seems terribly low.

Back to the feasibility - how do you make that happen? How do you fight two Wars at the same time, one against half the population, and one against the surviving members of the Shadow?

The answer is, you don't.

Fair points on the ter'angreals that utilize both sides of the source. Wanted clarification before I made any points based on that information.

GonzoTheGreat
10-22-2012, 03:39 AM
Back to the feasibility - how do you make that happen? How do you fight two Wars at the same time, one against half the population, and one against the surviving members of the Shadow?

The answer is, you don't.
Maybe not, but attempts were still made after the Breaking was over, when no living Forsaken were left apart from those who had been bound by LTT:
"That is ridiculous." Exasperation dripped from Sareitha’s voice. "If you must know, it was the problem of men who can channel that drew them to it. The Breaking of the World was a living memory to some, then. I don’t suppose even very many sisters remember – it hasn’t been part of the required instruction since before the Trolloc Wars – but men can be brought into a circle, too, and as the circle doesn’t break even if you go to sleep... Well, you can see the advantages. That was an utter failure, unfortunately. More to the point here, I say again that it is impossible to force a woman into a circle. If you doubt, try it yourself. You will see."
Based on what we're told here, the attempt was made after the Breaking, yet they still involved men in a circle then.

Res_Ipsa
10-22-2012, 10:31 AM
I still wouldn't vote for him but I'd at least respect his reading choices.

Unfortunately, he's stated that his favorite fictional book is Battlefield Earth (http://www.latimes.com/features/books/jacketcopy/la-ca-jc-obama-romney-reading-20121021,0,1421008.story?track=lat-pick)...one of the worst Sci-Fi books ever written. Though he partially redeems himself with the mention of Ender's Game.

I need to read Ender's Game sometime, a lot of people talk about it.

Davian93
10-22-2012, 11:09 AM
I need to read Ender's Game sometime, a lot of people talk about it.

Its a good book...the rest of the series isn't as good.

Well worth the read.

"The enemy's gate is down"

Res_Ipsa
10-22-2012, 02:11 PM
Its a good book...the rest of the series isn't as good.

Well worth the read.

"The enemy's gate is down"

If that were GRRM writing I would think the book was hyper sexual (Red Wedding jibes as they are doing the bedding)

Ieyasu
10-22-2012, 07:27 PM
Its a good book...the rest of the series isn't as good.

Well worth the read.

"The enemy's gate is down"

Ender's Game is pretty good, but unlike Davian, I think the rest of the series is better. They started losing me a little on the spin-off Shadow series. Xenocide, Speaker for the Dead, and Children of the Mind are my three favorite books in the entire saga.

One thing to keep in mind, the spin-off's are actually more in-line with Ender's Game than the rest of the actual series. OSC had the idea for the rest of the series as a separate and unrelated series and ended up combining them, the 2nd book thru the last one are a totally different tone and aside from 2 returning characters, contain very little in common with Ender's Game, or the Shadows spin-offs. I really liked it a lot. The spin-off Shadow series on the other hand, follows the other kids in Enders Game and dues ex bullshit aside, is a pretty decent stand alone series in of itself.

Greycon
10-24-2012, 03:32 PM
Personally, whether an OR worked on men or not, I think that they would have wanted to use an A'dam. But he would not bring it to such an insect until they had Rand.
I don't think that the OR's that are out there would work on a male, but that's a gut feeling. I do kinda like the idea of Sadin being channeled into the opposite end of the OR to work for a male. I don't think there is any real evidence that they would not work no males though.
On the "They would have tried it" point, I agree. That does not mean that they did not try it. But since the males could not control touching the source, being mad and all, they would have died from the binding. This practice would have been found to not be effective and not worth the effort of catching and binding the male.
Fast forward to present time, there are no males to experiment with due to the mindset of the WT. Not only do they believe to strongly in tradition, but they really don't know what they are doing with all the toys that they have found.
So, yes, it could have been tried, and the knowledge lost that it is not worth it.

GonzoTheGreat
10-25-2012, 04:05 AM
On the "They would have tried it" point, I agree. That does not mean that they did not try it. But since the males could not control touching the source, being mad and all, they would have died from the binding. This practice would have been found to not be effective and not worth the effort of catching and binding the male.
Why do you assume that every male who could channel was mad?
Based on the evidence, there's no reason to make that assumption.

There are quite a lot of Asha'man who learned how to channel while the Taint was there who can decide not to do so, at least most of the time. All the OR would then need to do is stop them the rest of the time too.

Davian93
10-25-2012, 07:29 AM
Why do you assume that every male who could channel was mad?
Based on the evidence, there's no reason to make that assumption.

There are quite a lot of Asha'man who learned how to channel while the Taint was there who can decide not to do so, at least most of the time. All the OR would then need to do is stop them the rest of the time too.

The Breaking too over 300 years because it took that long for all the men to go mad and then die. The Ogier's offer of sanctuary was a big part of that but that also prevented it from being so massive all at once as to destroy humanity.

There were plenty of sane male channelers even 100 years into the Breaking. Only the original Hundred Companions went instantly mad. Examples of this would be the men used in making the Eye of the World which happened a good bit into the Breaking along with things like the Stone of Tear.

Greycon
10-25-2012, 09:51 AM
Why do you assume that every male who could channel was mad?
Based on the evidence, there's no reason to make that assumption.

There are quite a lot of Asha'man who learned how to channel while the Taint was there who can decide not to do so, at least most of the time. All the OR would then need to do is stop them the rest of the time too.

For some, but not for others. The mad ones would not be able to control themselves and die, either from the OR or from madness.

The "sane" males did not go mad right away, but they were tainted with their first touch of Sadin after the counterstrike. Madness is not just random crazy, it's the belief that something is real that is not. You can be mildly insane. The shadows in ToM are a good example. The problem is, he knew they were real. Little madness is just as crazy as no madness. If he truly felt that the shadows were coming, he would have contacted the closest Vorlon and, wait no, he may well try for the source to defend himself. Being blocked and in a panic he might try harder and harder till the OR killed him. We have no reference of someone being untouched by the taint after the breaking. Oddly enough, crazy shows up in crazy ways. I don't think that they would have been able to stop themselves from trying to touch the OP.

The Ogier's sanctuary is a perfect example. The males for what ever reason left the stedding knowing that they would die. Whether this is from the life shortening effects of the OR or from madness, who knows.

Ultimately, all the male channlers are ded. Knowledge passes to myth, myth passes to legend, legend passes to gentle all male channlers and "ohhhh, look at this pretty rod. Oh, wow! It uses the OP."