PDA

View Full Version : The Warders' Hierarchy


Res_Ipsa
10-21-2012, 09:34 AM
How is it determined? They must have some formal/informal ways of giving commands to themselves. Given that in Salidar (and elsewhere in the series) there were Warders always on guard who rotated out their assignments and did escorts and the like it would stand to reason that someone had to be giving the orders as to who where and when and I doubt AS could be bothered to do so.

I believe Lan was called the king of all warders by another warder, does that mean they determine their own precedence? That would seem to be the more feasible option as opposed to say the precedence of their AS = the warder's own standing.

When in the WT, Hammar (before his death) was in charge of teaching prospective recruits. Other warders may have helped train but it was given to him to be the drill sergeant so to speak. Who were his superiors or did he go as high as they come given that warders exist for a martial purpose and would have very little need to deal with civilian affairs.

Any thoughts?

Zombie Sammael
10-21-2012, 02:02 PM
I would suggest that warders probably follow the same hierarchy as their Aes Sedai, but in situations requiring a little more organisation such as defending a military asset, develop informal chains of command based on experience and skill in the relevant areas. Hammar appeared to have more authority within the White Tower, but we're actually short a reference that says he was even a Warder and not simply a skilled instructor, so in non-military situations where Warders will be accompanying their Aes Sedai on various missions the command structure is obviously loose. Lan's "King of the Warders" title is probably just a reference to his skill and legendary status even prior to being bonded by Moiraine - and the fact that Moiraine no doubt got into more deadly situations in which Lan aided or saved her than most sisters and their warders - rather than being strictly a denotation of rank.

Davian93
10-21-2012, 04:18 PM
He was referred to as Hammar Gaidin...he was definitely a Warder.


TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 24 - Scouting and Discoveries
"It would not be fair, Hammar Gaidin," Galad said.

Maybe they did it by age, skill level or perhaps they were an autonomous collective of some sort where they shared such duties equally when their AS didnt need them.


Also, on Hammar:


TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 1 - Seeds of Shadow
"I will be in the practice yard. The only time I can stop worrying is when I am working the sword with Hammar." Hammar was a blademaster, and the Warder who taught the sword

Zombie Sammael
10-21-2012, 05:47 PM
He was referred to as Hammar Gaidin...he was definitely a Warder.



Maybe they did it by age, skill level or perhaps they were an autonomous collective of some sort where they shared such duties equally when their AS didnt need them.


Also, on Hammar:

Ah. That's what I get for relying on eWOT this time, heh. Thanks for the correction.

GonzoTheGreat
10-22-2012, 03:29 AM
Cute bonus question: what would Rand's position be in this hierarchy?
Bonus question to the bonus question: how does being able to channel add in to the calculations (this applies to the other Asha'man Warders, obviously)?
Extra bonus question: how about a Warder of whom it is known that she is a Hero of the Horn?

Res_Ipsa
10-22-2012, 10:40 AM
Also, on Hammar:

I always wondered who his AS would be, I regret not asking RJ when at the various signings.

Cute bonus question: what would Rand's position be in this hierarchy?

None, since he cannot be properly described as a Warder having never been tower trained and his purpose is not to serve his AS. Here, I am distinguishing between bonding and being a warder. Just like the wives of the AM are bonded but not warders to their husbands.


Bonus question to the bonus question: how does being able to channel add in to the calculations (this applies to the other Asha'man Warders, obviously)?

Before the cleansing, probably as well as strong things worked out for Elyas. Now, who is to say.

Extra bonus question: how about a Warder of whom it is known that she is a Hero of the Horn?

Her purpose (now) is to protect Elayne. Even though she is not tower trained, the other warders accept her when they find out that she was bonded. That would harken back to the time of the Trolloc Wars were suitable replacements were taken as needed. I highly doubt she will reveal who she truly is so I don't see her status ever changing based on that.

Now, if Warder hierarchy is determined by who can drink the most, she is probably a shoe in for Warder in Chief.

Davian93
10-22-2012, 11:07 AM
I always wondered who his AS would be, I regret not asking RJ when at the various signings.


Zero evidence at all here but I would guess that it was one of the Blue sisters who was killed in the attack. I think we would have heard of it otherwise...something along the lines of "She's still crying because of Hammar's death" mentioned to one of the supergirls in Salidar in passing. Also, it makes sense that a Blue warder would lead the attempt to free her.

Res_Ipsa
10-22-2012, 02:09 PM
Zero evidence at all here but I would guess that it was one of the Blue sisters who was killed in the attack. I think we would have heard of it otherwise...something along the lines of "She's still crying because of Hammar's death" mentioned to one of the supergirls in Salidar in passing. Also, it makes sense that a Blue warder would lead the attempt to free her.

Yeah, that is probably it. I went back and read NS to see if there was any hint as to her identity because Hammar showed a good deal of loyalty in trying to free her against other warders and their AS(not sure if that was ever mentioned). Uncommon loyalty because of . . . perhaps his AS was close w/ Siuan? I always hated Gawyn for his role in fighting against his mentors and his subsequent trip down cry baby lane.

Davian93
10-22-2012, 05:52 PM
Yeah, that is probably it. I went back and read NS to see if there was any hint as to her identity because Hammar showed a good deal of loyalty in trying to free her against other warders and their AS(not sure if that was ever mentioned). Uncommon loyalty because of . . . perhaps his AS was close w/ Siuan? I always hated Gawyn for his role in fighting against his mentors and his subsequent trip down cry baby lane.

That's pretty much what killed Gawyn as a character for me. I've hated him ever since.

GonzoTheGreat
10-23-2012, 04:19 AM
That's pretty much what killed Gawyn as a character for me. I've hated him ever since.
Elayne preferred him over Galad. Which, in hindsight, was a bit of a clue even earlier on.

Res_Ipsa
10-23-2012, 07:39 AM
Elayne preferred him over Galad. Which, in hindsight, was a bit of a clue even earlier on.

I don't follow.

GonzoTheGreat
10-23-2012, 07:46 AM
I don't follow.
Elayne has a bit of a tendency of making the same mistake over and over and over and over again. (There's serious discussion whether or not she's going to be caught by the Shadow yet again in AMoL.) That suggests that her judgment is not entirely trustworthy.

Res_Ipsa
10-23-2012, 09:48 AM
Elayne has a bit of a tendency of making the same mistake over and over and over and over again. (There's serious discussion whether or not she's going to be caught by the Shadow yet again in AMoL.) That suggests that her judgment is not entirely trustworthy.

Gotcha, I was thinking you meant it as a reference to not liking Elayne and thus who she approved of was tainted.

Davian93
10-23-2012, 10:25 AM
Elayne preferred him over Galad. Which, in hindsight, was a bit of a clue even earlier on.

So did Egwene...which is just as damning.

Res_Ipsa
10-23-2012, 11:50 AM
So did Egwene...which is just as damning.

Worse.

Egwene logic = "I know how to make Cuendillar, the seals are made out of Cuendillar, I KNOW ALL ABOUT THE SEALS RAND, YOUR IDEA IS A BAD IDEA!"

Tsofu
10-23-2012, 03:43 PM
So did Egwene...which is just as damning.

With the UTmost respect, Davian. Egwene was smitten with Galad waaaay before she turned her attentions to Gawyn. I can dig up the reference but I recall Elayne saying words to Egwene, to the effect that Gawyn was 'besotted' with her but wouldn't express any interest since Galad had already shown his interest.

The genius/aggravation of RJ's writing is that it's entirely possible to understand why each of these young people behaves the way they do and to either empathize with her/him or conversely, loathe each of their POV's.

However, this is getting rather far afield from the thread. I never perceived any hierarchy amongst the warders, except that Lan was first among equals.

Tsofu

WinespringBrother
10-23-2012, 03:57 PM
I've wondered about whether warders have a formal hierarchy, but I have a feeling that they really don't. It seems that they all defer to any Aes Sedai, but amongst themselves they will come to accomodations with each other rather than defering, as long as their accomodations don't conflict with their Aes Sedai's wishes. I can't think of any examples in the series where one warder listened to or obeyed another warder due to some formal or informal ranking system.

Davian93
10-23-2012, 06:40 PM
With the UTmost respect, Davian. Egwene was smitten with Galad waaaay before she turned her attentions to Gawyn. I can dig up the reference but I recall Elayne saying words to Egwene, to the effect that Gawyn was 'besotted' with her but wouldn't express any interest since Galad had already shown his interest.

The genius/aggravation of RJ's writing is that it's entirely possible to understand why each of these young people behaves the way they do and to either empathize with her/him or conversely, loathe each of their POV's.

However, this is getting rather far afield from the thread. I never perceived any hierarchy amongst the warders, except that Lan was first among equals.

Tsofu

Well of course she did...but she ultimately chose Gawyn over Galad...which tells you all you need to know.

GonzoTheGreat
10-24-2012, 04:07 AM
Well of course she did...but she ultimately chose Gawyn over Galad...which tells you all you need to know.
To be fair to her, she considered Lanfear too for a short while. Not sure why she chose not to pursue that. Might've made a big difference, if it had worked out.

77jester
10-24-2012, 04:05 PM
It was either Lord Agelmar or Ingtar that told Nynaeve that Lan was the greatest of the Warders, not the king. Which to me implies an opinion of a borderlander not necessarily an established hierarchy.

sleepinghour
10-24-2012, 06:00 PM
Agelmar called Lan the best of the Warders, and from context it's clear that he's only referring to Lan's skills.
"If you must enter the Blight, and with only a few, there is no man better to take you there, nor to bring you safely out again. He is the best of the Warders, and that means the best of the best."

I don't think Lan holds any particular position among the Warders considering Moiraine never spent much time in Tar Valon, but it wouldn't surprise me if he was something of a legendary figure seeing as even Gawyn knew of Lan in TGS. In TGH, Lan also told Nynaeve that if she showed any Warder his ring, they would help her if she needed it.

Enigma
10-28-2012, 02:22 PM
Given the duties of the Warders it might be hard for them to have a formal hierarchy. Some AS spend a lot of their time in the Tower so it would stand to reason that some warder with a flare for teaching and with an AS who hardly ever leaves Tar Valon would be set in charge of traning. Other's may help as time and other duties allow but I doubt they are set up like an army with ranks.

They are essentially elite bodyguards and confidents to their AS and that is the first and main job. Any hierarchy has the potential to interfeer with that.

It is possible that a Warder's AS could order him to obey anotehr AS's warder if that AS stood highter that her but again I doubt it. How often have we been told that AS don't like anyone interfeering with their warders.

If there are a large group of AS invovled in a joint operation, say escorting a false dragon to Tar Valon then I would guess they would work it out among themselves who does what. Each Warder probably is a very good judge when it comes to knowing the skil set of other warders. Given that they are quite professional I would guess they would show a certain deference and respect to other Warders who are either more skilled or experienced, as long as it does not interfeer with his job of keeping his AS alive and breathing.