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View Full Version : Sealing the bore vs. another way...


iokepa
10-23-2012, 03:53 PM
So as I've re-read TOM and now the releases from AMOL, I'm left wondering what fresh theories/thoughts you all have on this "something else.."?

One answer kept coming to Rand. A dangerous answer. One that Lews Therin hadn’t considered.

What if the answer wasn’t to seal the Dark One away again? What if the answer, the final answer, was something else? Something more permanent.

Yes, Rand thought to himself for the hundredth time. But is it possible?

Disclaimer: My apologies if this is already in another thread, I have tried to search as best I can but not finding anything recent. That being said - I'm def a newb here, so just point me in the right direction if its already here..

Zombie Sammael
10-23-2012, 05:21 PM
Rand wants to kill the Dark One. I'm all but certain the answer has something to do with Callandor, but all the theories on that seem to hinge upon looney ideas such as channelling the True Power through it or using it to contain the Dark One, none of which really seem to quite work given RJ's comments on the nature of the taint, the TP, and the DO - most hinge on the idea of the taint and TP as the same.

Based on the cover, Terez and others think that Rand will be going to Shayol Ghul twice. I'm not personally a fan of that - I think there is more chance that he will lose his hand again post-resurrection - but if he does, then a hubristic attempt to kill the Dark One could tie in to a certain line of prophecy I'm fond of quoting. Attempting to make a permanent change to the Wheel such as removing the DO completely could break the cyclical nature of time, and likely not in the "linear time" way that some people are fond of. Inevitably, the pattern wouldn't allow this and might arrange things such that Rand's death "distracts" him long enough for him to come up with another plan; something like this would have to fulfil certain other prophecies and foreshadowing we know about the death of Rand.

Another possibility that I find equally distasteful is that the Dark One might get replaced, specifically by Padan Fain. We know he is, like the Dark One, a sort of extra-pattern being:



QUESTION
Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

ROBERT JORDAN
He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

Most of the reasoning for this suggests a repeat of what happened at the Cleansing, with the evil of Shadar Logoth being used to counter the evil of the Dark One in some permanent sense. I dislike this idea firstly because it's pulling the same trick twice, something I think was beneath Jordan. But there is a better reason: having Fain save the day is way too much like Gollum:


QUESTION
Is Padan Fain going to turn out like Gollum?
BRANDON SANDERSON
No, he is not going to be like that. I am aware of the comparisons, and I am trying to distance him from that. The scene in Towers of Midnight with Padan Fain was originally written differently, and when I submitted it to Harriet she said, "Oh no, he's much crazier than that!" So I changed it accordingly.

At the end of Lord of the Rings, Gollum bites off Frodo's finger, which is holding the Ring, and in the process falls into the Cracks of Doom, holding the ring. Both are destroyed. The Ring is the essence of Sauron, who is comparable to the Dark One, so having Fain "jump in" to the Bore or in some other way end up with/destroying the DO is very similar to LOTR and what happened with Gollum.

The other way it offends my sensibilities is that two wrongs oughtn't make a right in the Wheel of Time. What happened to Aridhol was horrific and shouldn't be encouraged.

Unfortunately, that's all I've really got. Rand's plan is to kill the Dark One, and it will probably involve Callandor, and probably not involve Padan Fain. But everything beyond that is too murky, and unfortunately I only know what I think won't happen.

iokepa
10-23-2012, 05:30 PM
I couldn't agree more on the simple distaste of Fain turning out to do something Gollum-like...

My own looney thoughts have been hovering around something like this:

-Dark One has been able to influence the world for sometime, but can't directly 'touch' it.
-The Dark One's release will allow him to touch the world and turn everything into the nothing. (yes that was a never-ending story reference) :D
-The pattern likes balance, and attempts to weave things into balance.
-Completely eliminating/killing the Dark One would leave as much unbalance as him being fully released.
-Therefore, (and here's where things get looney), wouldn't releasing the Creator as an anti-Dark One force upon the world bring everything into a more "permanent" balance? In other words - create a 'bore' to the creator and leave it open..

Like I said..looney - but fun to run wild with on my long drives at work.. :rolleyes:

Great Lord of the Dark
10-23-2012, 05:55 PM
If anything, I think a role reversal between Fain and the Dark One. Fain represents trying to eradicate evil at any cost, which Rand tried, and has now rejected. Rand has to stop Fain from killing the Dark One,so that he can do what the Dragon has to: accept the evil nature of man, do his best to stand against it, to not succumb to its allure, die living the ideals, not defending them. It's not sealing the Dark One away, or destroying him, it's acknowledging he exists and is part of Rand, but refusing to bend to him.

Fain killing the Dark One kills time, bla bla, so that's what Rand has to stop. Fain is not Gollum.

Zombie Sammael
10-23-2012, 06:38 PM
Quite apart from the in-book and interview quotes that suggest non-interference from the Creator, I don't think the Wheel itself has that power. For a start, the Dark One is bound within the Pattern. That suggests the Creator is external to it, and not in contact with the Pattern in the same way the DO is. Thus, it wouldn't be possible in the first instance to create a Bore to him. Secondly, I don't think the Wheel, as a creation, has the power to command the Creator any more than it can the Dark One (or Padan Fain, potentially). They're outside of the influence of the Wheel and the Pattern.

I think that the balance which the Pattern provides to the Dark One and the Shadow is the human individuals who are working and fighting for the Light, particularly Rand and the other three ta'veren, but also people like Egwene, Tuon, and Cadsuane. There is no particular balance for the DO himself, but the closest thing to it is Rand. Obviously, though, he's nowhere near the DO's godlike power level.

Dom
10-23-2012, 07:01 PM
I think Herid Fel was generally right, the idea behind a "permanent solution" is in the absolute completely out of Rand's hand, as he will never have any control over a future replay of the drilling of the Bore in a future Age.

The best he can hope for is to make the Bore disappear and return to the Pattern to its pre-Bore state, and encourage humanity not to forget the DO... but it will become legend and turn to myth and be forgotten again. As RJ implied this turning of the Wheel has nothing special, more specifically that nothing set this third Age apart from past ones, it sounds like Fel's notion the prison has to be made whole again is the right one.

The notion that Rand could "kill" the Dark One sounds absurd (I tend to think Moridin wasn't lying about this). Shai'tan is the embodiement of death. Rand needs some epiphany about Shai'tan real role in the cosmology, and about what's different between that and the present situation with the Bore. He needs to really understand, perhaps remembering what he knows of the Drilling itself too. His bond to Moridin (Moridin knows about these topics, I'm sure), or the fact he connected to Shai'tan's essence might play a role in achieving this epiphany.

I like a lot the hypothesis that the Creator engineered the life cycle by allowing Shai'tan a touch on the Pattern, through which decay and death can exist within. Without Shai'tan, the cyle couldn't exist, everything would stagnate, if life would even be sustainable (if nothing can decay or die, how would beings even feed?)

In this hypothesis, this is the purpose of what's referred to in the series as the "weakness" in the Pattern, actually part of the system and obeying strict rules. This is what the drilling of the Bore completely messed up.

I don't really have a set theory on how concretely Rand will be able to make the Bore vanish, to heal the Pattern or to return it to its natural state. The only elements I think may be on the right track is that the famous "weakness" existed in the TAR layer of creation, that TAR is connected to the "Afterworld", and that the weakness in the Pattern, which allows death, stood as the threshold to that Afterworld. This would mean the Drilling of the Bore was achieved in tel'aran'rhiod, that Lanfear was part of a team of powerful Dreamwalkers.

This could mean the final solution would involve all the main characters. Rand has to do something at the Pit of Doom itself, involving a link with Moiraine and Nynaeve. Min had two viewings which may be connected: one has Rand holding a Sword of Light wielded against one of Shadow (darkness Min rather said), and the other viewing as a black hand grabbing Callandor. One interpretation of this, connecting the two viewings, could be that Rand has to use Callandor at the Pit, in a link, to bait Shaidar Haran to seize it, turning it into that "sword of darkness". The Sword of Darkness in the second viewing would then be Callandor wielded by Shaidar Haran, which suggests the second sword of Light Rand wields against it could only be Justice. In TGS it's implied Justice has properties LTT knows about but (pre-epiphany) wouldn't "tell" Rand. Rand should have access to those memories now, it's a matter of him thinking of that sword and its properties again (my hunch: Justice is not an ordinary power-wrought weapon, it might be part of a triad of pre-AOL "legendary" objects with the Horn and the Banner of Light. It could mean it sat in a museum in the AOL (but maybe was given to LTT as a symbol), its powers never tested and believed purely legendary, like the Horn's. It may be those legends LTT knows of. In any case, that sword exists both in TAR - its reflection in the guard of Arthur Hawkwing's soul... at least when the Dragon Soul isn't dead in TAR anyway, and in the real world. This could prove relevant or not).

Whatever Rand is accomplishing through this ballet, when it's achieved is when he has to die to reach the Heroes' Afterlife in TAR, cutting his bond to Moridin if Moridin isn't yet dead, go face Shai'tan the Lord of the Grave in his own domain. Perrin and his wolves and Egwene, the dead heroes too maybe, could be required to help Rand undo/repair from Tel'aran'rhiod what Beidomon's team have done there to drill the Bore. If they succeed, the Pattern would return to normal, the Bore would vanish leaving only the normal "weakness" through which death can exist.

Mat will be required to keep the Shadow's defenders from interferring during all this (could also be Perrin's and the wolves' task in TAR, if the Shadow still has dreamwalkers alive to interfere with Rand's/Egwene's), and when the TAR deed is accomplished to sound the Horn to call the Heroes to the real world. That is when the matter of Rand's "ressurection" might be taken care of. How would probably be more surprising than merely replicating Moghedien's trick and bonding him. a bit too obvious. It could rather be Nynaeve who find a way to keep dead but called back by the Horn Rand in the real world. That way he would be both dead but alive... Rand in the funeral bier would be a dead physical body that's the one he lost when he dies at the Pit, but Rand would actually be alive in the TAR body, which either got snatched and bonded Birgitte style, or something more creative Nynaeve comes up with to hold TAR Rand in the real world after the Horn called him back. I tend to be rather "creative" with the ways in which Rand would return, as I really hate the notion of Nynaeve finding a way to "heal death". It goes against so many themes of WOT, and this refusal of death is actually strongly associated to evil. I'd be appalled if Nynaeve found a way to grant immortality, at least if what she does doesn't spark from unique circumstances and can't be reproduced to bring back to life anyone...

The "three becoming one" could refer to several elements all at once: Rand, Moiraine and Nynaeve forming a circle, Saidar, Saidin and the True Power coming in contact within Callandor, and probably Rand's, Mat's and Perrin's minds joining because of their "color swirls" bond.

Cabadrin
10-23-2012, 07:24 PM
For a start, the Dark One is bound within the Pattern.

According to The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of the World ch 1 (I gather the book may have been issued under a different name in the US so I put in the full name of my copy here):
The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it - as well as the plan for the Great Pattern - and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation. No one inside and of the pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern. Even those who are ta'veren can only alter, but not completely change the weave.

As for Fain, don't forget this has happend before. Every turn of the Wheel, the DO is released enough to affect the world, then eventually resealed and everything restored to original conditions.
Fain is unique for this turn, he isn't necessary unless this is Robert Sedai speaking and there is someting unique every turn of the Wheel necessary in the end game. But that conflicts with the promise that Fain will not do a Gollum.

iokepa
10-23-2012, 09:37 PM
Quite apart from the in-book and interview quotes that suggest non-interference from the Creator...

I should have clarified that I don't actually want this outcome, or think it will happen. As a reader/fan I would feel that it was something of a cheap-shot for the Creator to all-of-a-sudden show up at the end.

That being said, I simply enjoyed toying with the concepts of defeating evil with enhancing good vs. destroying evil.

Along those lines - I do wonder at the 'white-ness' surrounding Rand's madness that Nynaeve sees when she delves him to cure his madness. Where did this come from, and could it hint at something to the 'permanent' solution?

I think that the balance which the Pattern provides to the Dark One and the Shadow is the human individuals who are working and fighting for the Light, particularly Rand and the other three ta'veren, but also people like Egwene, Tuon, and Cadsuane.


Good point.

Tedman
10-24-2012, 04:25 AM
Along those lines - I do wonder at the 'white-ness' surrounding Rand's madness that Nynaeve sees when she delves him to cure his madness. Where did this come from, and could it hint at something to the 'permanent' solution?



Good point.

I've thought that that was one of Moirane's demands to the Aelfin,Elfin sorry forget which does what.

Re: the Sealing

I hope the answer isn't the silly one that I always come back to thinking about this.

When Rand first uses the Portal stone and he just touches a symbol, and that is what Mat's coin flipped to, he says "it has to work for me sometime", this coupled with Fel's "Belief and Order" note .... can they just get all 3 ta'veren + a bunch of others singing\chanting\saidaring(cringe), and after enough time it just happens, in TAR or out of it.

The AoL'ers have a remarkable blind spot when it comes to certain things to be done with the Power like healing stilling, which seems so implausable to the 30 year old me compared to the 14 year old reading LoC, but ok whatever.


But the Seal\Resealing the DO prison has none of those constraints. The best minds of the age were on this for some time, LTT manages to patch it, but its imperfect and he posits that women not being involved might have been good. I really cannot buy that they wouldn't have found a way that involved the power, I get the blindspots for certain things that Nynaeve doesn't have.


To me this only leaves regrowing it whole again in some fashion.

"Ive already been to the WT"
"They let you leave?"
"I didn't allow them any other option"

This to me implies how it will be done, everyone concentrating on it being whole and then the pattern bending to the combined Ta'veren wills. I feel as though this is kind of cheesy, but I really hope it is not done with the power some how, because that would mean Latrae Posae and all the women were just morons to the highest power, which would just be a huge bummer to me.

Zombie Sammael
10-24-2012, 06:57 AM
According to The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of the World ch 1 (I gather the book may have been issued under a different name in the US so I put in the full name of my copy here):

Bear in mind that the Big White Book is deliberately inaccurate in some respects. If the Dark One was outside the pattern in the same sense that the Wheel or Creator is, then he'd be completely free. When I say "bound within", I'm thinking of the Pattern as a sphere, with the Dark One inside and the cosmic dwelling of the Creator above and outside.

SamJ
10-24-2012, 07:46 AM
I wonder if a vacuole might be involved - it could explain Brandon's comment about time passing differently. This is just speculating but I wonder whether the bore could be manipulated into one and then it could be closed up away from the pattern. No ideas about the mechanism for this, perhaps they could isolate it so DO can't touch the world. While thet're at it they could trap Fain in there too. Kind of like how Flinn et al dealt with Rand's double wounds.

GonzoTheGreat
10-24-2012, 07:54 AM
Bear in mind that the Big White Book is deliberately inaccurate in some respects. If the Dark One was outside the pattern in the same sense that the Wheel or Creator is, then he'd be completely free. When I say "bound within", I'm thinking of the Pattern as a sphere, with the Dark One inside and the cosmic dwelling of the Creator above and outside.
Add a few more dimensions, make the sphere infinite in size, and "inside" and "outside" become rather arbitrary. Still, apart from that, it's probably a fairly accurate view.

A vacuole seems unlikely to be a permanent solution, as those things are not all that trustworthy, yet still part of the Pattern generated by the Wheel. On top of which there is the fact that the Bore is everywhere (it just can be felt more easily in some places than in others), so you would have to stuff the entire world into the vacuole in order to make this work. Not really useful, that.

Zombie Sammael
10-24-2012, 08:00 AM
Add a few more dimensions, make the sphere infinite in size, and "inside" and "outside" become rather arbitrary. Still, apart from that, it's probably a fairly accurate view.

A vacuole seems unlikely to be a permanent solution, as those things are not all that trustworthy, yet still part of the Pattern generated by the Wheel. On top of which there is the fact that the Bore is everywhere (it just can be felt more easily in some places than in others), so you would have to stuff the entire world into the vacuole in order to make this work. Not really useful, that.

I was going for something my tiny mind could comprehend. :p

GonzoTheGreat
10-24-2012, 08:03 AM
I just misread the title as: Stealing the bore vs. another way...

Letting Vanin run off with the Bore might be a solution not many would've expected, I think.

SamJ
10-24-2012, 08:19 AM
A vacuole seems unlikely to be a permanent solution, as those things are not all that trustworthy, yet still part of the Pattern generated by the Wheel. On top of which there is the fact that the Bore is everywhere (it just can be felt more easily in some places than in others), so you would have to stuff the entire world into the vacuole in order to make this work. Not really useful, that.

I've never been convinced that the solution this time will necessarily last more than the next age ... But good point re the bore.

Dom
10-24-2012, 09:02 AM
Bear in mind that the Big White Book is deliberately inaccurate in some respects. If the Dark One was outside the pattern in the same sense that the Wheel or Creator is, then he'd be completely free. When I say "bound within", I'm thinking of the Pattern as a sphere, with the Dark One inside and the cosmic dwelling of the Creator above and outside.

From RJ (verbatim):

The Dark One is outside of the Pattern, as the Creator is outside of the Pattern, but everything human is inside of the Pattern.

Notice the inversion in the beliefs between the Light's cosmology and Elan Morin Tenodrai's notions. For the Light, the DO was emprisoned by the Creator, for Elan Morin the Pattern is the prison, for the souls inside. For the Light, the DO is trying to break free of his prison, for Moridin the DO is trying to break the prison itself.

The boundary of the Pattern appears to be "the prison".

We know the True Power is the essence of the DO. LTT said "it is him", but RJ in a Q&A said the DO isn't only the True Power.

The TP and OP are the godly energies, substance. What's the rest? Probably something like godly "souls"?

IMO the whole substance/essence of the Creator, the One Power, is invested in Creation, his souls/will/mind he separated from this, thus it's outside. The DO, soul and substance, is also outside, trying to undo what the Creator has made with his energy/substance. It's unlikely this would destroy the OP. Rather, it would probably force the Creator to order it into a new Creation, which the DO would again try to unravel.

The Creator seems to leave Creation a choice through the Dragon. At some point (after experiencing in some ways the worse/hardest of life) the Dragon faces the final decision: should Creation go on, is it worth fighting for this to continue, or is it time to put an end to it all? It's the choice Shai'tan doesn't give his followers, whom he deceives about "a New World" over which they'd rule immortal.

Rand reached the point where all that drove him was hatred of the Shadow, and he fell more and more into Moridin's nihilistic thinking. Then at the breaking point he had his epiphany.

Rand has made the choice now, but the Creator won't (perhaps can't) hand him the solution (he seems rather to have provided him with the potential, the power to achieve the deed). Rand and his allies have to create their solution to making the "prison" whole and unbroken again. In a Q&A, RJ said (echoing Fel) that because of the cyclic nature of time we have to assume it's inevitable (his caveat: unless the DO wins). There remains the (very slight) possibility it's not in the third Age this deed is achieved.

IMO, it wouldn't be too far from the truth to say post-epiphany Rand has become or his own his way to become the Light's mirror of Shaidar Haran, with a fundamental difference. Shaidar Haran is but a puppet, the DO's will and power completely drives it. I think the Light's champion is simply invested with the potential to draw what he needs from the Creator, be his Hand, but also guide that Hand.

LTT (in KOD, IRRC) blamed his arrogance to have believe humans could mend what had been made by the Creator, rambling at the same time the Creator had moved on and didn't care what happened to Creation. IMO the problem wasn't arrogance, it was loss of faith, both in his own potential as Champion and in falsely believing the Creator didn't care.

Dom
10-24-2012, 09:49 AM
I'm all but certain the answer has something to do with Callandor, but all the theories on that seem to hinge upon looney ideas such as channelling the True Power through it or using it to contain the Dark One, none of which really seem to quite work given RJ's comments on the nature of the taint, the TP, and the DO - most hinge on the idea of the taint and TP as the same.

What if Egwene is on the right track that there's an issue with how the sealing will be removed, that if it's not done right it could rip the Bore open?

Perhaps simply breaking the cuendillar disks, the focal points for the "real" seals, isn't the same as removing all the residues from the previous sealing? What if Rand has to remove actual weaves at the Pit itself to really "clear the rubble?". This likely would involve touching the DO directly with the OP again.

The purpose of Callandor, an incidental property having to do with its flaw, could be to contain within it the effects of that contact, or if you prefer, to contain within the san'angreal the DO's counter-strike?

Remaking the prison might be another step that doesn't involve Callandor, Callandor may be necessary to "clear the rubble" safely.

This prior step before remaking the prison may not even be performed by Rand, but by Nynaeve. She's the one who developped a technique which in her own words isn't even healing or using healing weaves to pick out taint/TP barbs grabbing a brain, as a first step before she can weave a mirror of the weave she wants to remove. It may be the same principles involved that would let a channeler remove the residues of LTT's sealing once all the focal points are destroyed - first pick out the TP hooks on the Bore, then Rand or Nynaeve can weave a mirror of the sealing and remove it.

Perhaps the DO will on purpose hold to the last sealing weave that way (the evidence is that the others he destroyed as each focal point was destroyed, thus his increase in power to touch the world), in order to leave no choice to Rand but to have to come remove that weave (or the residues of the sealing weaves) at the Pit of Doom itself, using the OP, thereby touching Shai'tan with it directly again.

The TP and the Taint are from the same essence, but not exactly the same nature. Nynaeve could safely touch the Taint barbs directly without ill effects, but the DO can't be touched directly the same way, not safely.

Cabadrin
10-31-2012, 07:26 AM
Just occured to me, what would happen if rather than breaking the seals, Egwene turned them back to cuendillar? They are something else now, cuendillar is unbreakable. Not the solution, they were pure cuendillar when LTT&100 made the patch, but maybe a step on the way.

For the solution, we have seen two results of unwinding a weave, Aviendha's successful unwinding, astounding Moridin, and Elayne's explosion. There could be a reason why we have these demonstrations.
And for Moridin's surprise, "Something the pinnacle of civilization had not known!" Something LTT could not have done.

So, draw the patch together, then remove the bandage one thread at a time, leaving a healed wound?

Dom, love the use of the Horn to call Rand back. Much better than just repeating Falme.

Zombie Sammael
10-31-2012, 08:14 AM
What if Egwene is on the right track that there's an issue with how the sealing will be removed, that if it's not done right it could rip the Bore open?

Perhaps simply breaking the cuendillar disks, the focal points for the "real" seals, isn't the same as removing all the residues from the previous sealing? What if Rand has to remove actual weaves at the Pit itself to really "clear the rubble?". This likely would involve touching the DO directly with the OP again.

The purpose of Callandor, an incidental property having to do with its flaw, could be to contain within it the effects of that contact, or if you prefer, to contain within the san'angreal the DO's counter-strike?

Remaking the prison might be another step that doesn't involve Callandor, Callandor may be necessary to "clear the rubble" safely.

This prior step before remaking the prison may not even be performed by Rand, but by Nynaeve. She's the one who developped a technique which in her own words isn't even healing or using healing weaves to pick out taint/TP barbs grabbing a brain, as a first step before she can weave a mirror of the weave she wants to remove. It may be the same principles involved that would let a channeler remove the residues of LTT's sealing once all the focal points are destroyed - first pick out the TP hooks on the Bore, then Rand or Nynaeve can weave a mirror of the sealing and remove it.

Perhaps the DO will on purpose hold to the last sealing weave that way (the evidence is that the others he destroyed as each focal point was destroyed, thus his increase in power to touch the world), in order to leave no choice to Rand but to have to come remove that weave (or the residues of the sealing weaves) at the Pit of Doom itself, using the OP, thereby touching Shai'tan with it directly again.

The TP and the Taint are from the same essence, but not exactly the same nature. Nynaeve could safely touch the Taint barbs directly without ill effects, but the DO can't be touched directly the same way, not safely.

This is quite probably the best theory I've heard about the purpose of Callandor in the whole business of sealing the DO. I've often thought that Callandor is the thing that would have to touch the DO, since something has to make direct contact. There are of course still unanswered questions - the onyx fist, for instance. But this at least makes sense, unlike the idea that it would enhance the True Power.

iokepa
10-31-2012, 08:56 PM
Remaking the prison might be another step that doesn't involve Callandor, Callandor may be necessary to "clear the rubble" safely.

This prior step before remaking the prison may not even be performed by Rand, but by Nynaeve. She's the one who developped a technique which in her own words isn't even healing or using healing weaves to pick out taint/TP barbs grabbing a brain, as a first step before she can weave a mirror of the weave she wants to remove. It may be the same principles involved that would let a channeler remove the residues of LTT's sealing once all the focal points are destroyed - first pick out the TP hooks on the Bore, then Rand or Nynaeve can weave a mirror of the sealing and remove it.


So in your opinion, remaking the prison will fit into this "something more permanent" solution that Rand is brooding on? In other words, are you saying that remaking the prison is different than re-sealing the Bore?

codetoast
11-05-2012, 05:53 PM
I believe that sealing the bore and fixing the bore are different and I believe the something else that Rand will achieve during this tarmon gaiden is the fixing the bore (fixing the tear in the pattern).

We know that the only things that exist outside the pattern are the creator and dark one.

Q: And the rest of the Shadowspawn? Yeah, and how do their threads work.
A: What? Do they have souls you mean? The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behaviour is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balace. So not even the Forsaken are apart from that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

So the dark one is outside the pattern, and we know hes all about the world from demandred


TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message
Even after all his visits—and the first lay well over three thousand years in the past—Demandred felt awe. Here he could sense the Bore, the hole drilled through so long ago to where the Great Lord had lain imprisoned since the moment of Creation. Here the Great Lord's presence washed over him. Physically, this place was no closer to the Bore than any other in the world, but here there was a thinness in the Pattern that allowed it to be sensed.

The reason the bore can be sensed more here is the thinness, perhaps the same thinness that allowed Lanfear to sense the dark one as a source of power to begin with. The bore as rand knows it then is merely a hole in the pattern where that thinness could be sensed that was created by Lanfear.

LTT's original mission required both men and women. So the original "sealing" reminds us of something else requiring both men and women channellers that acts as a shield. The shield around Callendor prior to TDR:


TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 27 - Tel'aran'rhiod
Cautiously, she reached out with the Power, probing at whatever held and shielded the sword. Her probe touched - something - and stopped. She could sense which of the Five Powers had been used here. Air, and Fire, and Spirit. She could trace the intricate weave made by saidar, set with a strength that amazed her. There were gaps in that weave, spaces where her probe should slide through. When she tried, it was like fighting the strongest part of the weave head on. It hit her then, what she was trying to force a way through, and she let her probe vanish. Half that wall had been woven using saidar; the other half, the part she could not sense or touch, had been made with saidin. That was not it, exactly - the wall was all of one piece - but it was close enough. A stone wall stops a blind woman as surely as one who can see it.

I think that this is what LTT planned to do in resealing the bore, however without the women, it didn't work as well. I think Rand's present thinking is that if he has women, he can reseal the bore better this time.

Well, the something else comes from Herid fel and Min. Making it whole again. Fixing the bore entirely by fixing the pattern. This leads me to my next idea:
The bore made by lanfear works like a gateway.
Here is how I think it was made:

TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 37 - When Battle Begins
Egwene moved closer to Moghedien. The other woman was taller, but she cowered back against the table, knocking over the winecups on their tray and rocking the pitcher. Egwene made her voice cold; it did not have far to go. "The day I detect one lie out of you is the day I execute you myself. Now. I have considered traveling from one place to another by boring a hole, so to speak, from here to there. A hole through the Pattern, so there's no distance between one end and the other. How well will that work?"

"Not at all, for you or any woman," Moghedien said, breathless and quick. The fear that boiled inside was plain on her face now. "That is how men Travel." The capital was plain; she was speaking of one of the lost Talents. "If you try, you will be sucked into.... I don't know what it is. The space between the threads of the Pattern, maybe. I don't think you would live very long. I know you would never come back."

I particularly want to look at the word choice in the above of "boring a hole" bore is used commonly to describe how men channel and we can guess that Lanfear, a woman was the one leading the circle to drill the original bore. I think that maybe this is the method she used.

So lets take a look at how travelling works:

Date: Unknown | Location: Tor.com
Type: Weekly Questions | Questioner: Alexander Moscow Russia
Q: Military strategy in the War of Power must have been odd, indeed. How do the concepts of capturing and holding territory even make sense in a world where forces can Travel?
A: Good question, though not all of the forces involved could use gateways. (Rafo! Rafo!) Think of the ability to Travel in terms of moving troops via aircraft, and you will begin to get the picture. Even with the largest possible circles, there are limits to the size of gateways and thus limits to the front along which you can move troops out through it, the numbers you can commit simultaneously. Of course, you can use multiple gateways, but each is still only so large and can admit only so many soldiers at a time. Socalled front lines were very fluid, but you couldn't fling your forces in anywhere without regard to what would be surrounding them or how you were going to resupply, reinforce or withdraw them. Although no one has shown it so far in the books, there are ways to interfere with the making of a gateway and ways to defend against interference so the battle would take place on many levels. Yes, any area you hold can be attacked by your enemy, and you can attack any area that he holds. (Part of the result was great destruction and a great falloff in the ability to produce high tech items. By the time the Bore was sealed, soldiers were already much, much more likely to ride horses and carry swords than to ride armored vehicles or aircraft and carry shocklances, which had all become very rare.) But holding an area is not impossible so long as you can successfully disrupt your opponent's attempts to make gateways into it. Even if he manages to get those first soldiers in, if you can disrupt his ability to reinforce, resupply or withdraw, it becomes another Dien Bien Phu for him. Of course, if you fail, then it becomes Gettysburg or Waterloo, a blood fight that will be decisive for somebody. At least until the next "decisive" battle is fought. Remember, that designation is always given after the fact, by historians."

This is a property of gateways that I will connect later. More importantly we know this from Asmodean:
TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 32 - A Short Spear
Asmodean swallowed, shifting as though he-did not know whether Rand meant his threat. Rand was not sure himself. “My Lord Dragon, you never asked. A matter of bending light. You always have so many questions, it is hard to find a moment to speak of anything else. You must realize by now that I’ve thrown my lot in with yours completely.” Licking his lips, he got up. As far as his knees. And began to babble. “I felt your weave anybody within a mile could have felt it-I never saw anything like it-I didn’t know that anyone but Demandred could block a gateway that was closing, and maybe Semirhage-and Lews Therin-I felt it, and came, and a hard time I had getting past those Maidens-I used the same trick-you must know I am your man now. My Lord Dragon, I am your man.”

So there is a way to hold open a gateway, perhaps there is a way to hold open the gateway that is the bore.

From earlier in the same book:
He could sense his weaves holding open the gateway

The gateway was narrower. Maybe as much as a finger width narrower than moments before. Only his block held it open; it had tried to close as soon as Aviendha released her weave, and it was still trying to.

We can see that this gatway is growing smaller with time and it's trying to close. So how would such a thing stay open even with a tied off weave it seams infeasable but not impossible.

TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message
Abruptly, he noticed something. Every time he had made this journey, those spikes had all but brushed the top of his head. Now they cleared the Myrddraal's by two hands or more. That surprised him. Not that the height of the tunnel changed—the strange was ordinary here—but the extra space the Halfman was given. The Great Lord gave his reminders to Myrddraal as well as men. That extra space was a fact to be remembered.

I think this is a stretch but I believe Demandred gives us some clues to the bore's reality here. I think its on the border with what is outside reality. We know of the great explosion that occured after the bore was created from Rand's vision.Perhaps this was just the Dark One coming into the world with a bang, but perhaps it was a byproduct of one of the properties of a gateway. A gateway can be unweaved, possibly resulting in a massive explosion.

TITLE: Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: 2 - Unweaving
Moridin went back to studying the stableyard below as soon as Madic spoke. Ridiculous tales of gold and cuendillar held no interest. Nothing would make a gateway behave that way. Unless. . . . Could she actually have unraveled the web? Death held no fear for him. Coldly he considered the possibility that he had been within sight of an unraveling web. One that had been unmade successfully. Another impossibility casually offered up by these . . .

Its a little bit of a stretch, but for a time now I think it was less the bowl of the winds escaping that ticked off moridin and more the fact that someone capable of unweaving got away. I feel like unweaving will be an important step in finishing the dark one.


Final thing about gateways: what is this?
TITLE: Dragon Reborn
The stones around him faded almost to mist; the Stone faded. Reality trembled; he could feel it unraveling, feel himself unraveling. He was being pushed out of the here, into some other place where nothing existed at all. Callandor blazed in his hands like the sun till he thought it would melt. He thought he himself would melt from the surge of the One Power through him, the flood that he somehow directed into sealing up the hole that had opened around him, into holding himself on the side of existence. The Stone became solid again.

I think this is important for two reasons. I feel like in the fight with ishameal, Ishy tried to push rand out of the pattern into oblivion. THis is remaniscent of what happens to a women trying to travel like a man according to moghedien. So...what saved Rand? Callendor. I like the theory on this board that considers that Callendor might also be a terangreal. I think it was that property of callendor that saved Rand during this scene and also explains how callendor can be instrumental in not only shielding the bore again, but completely fixing it.

Here are some other things to note about callendor. The netweaver wanted it. So did ishy, and so did Aginor in Winter's Heart. Maybe some leverage to gain favor or the title of naeblis. After all, the CK are the more powerful. Anyways here are the properties of Callendor:

TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: The Wheel and the Pattern
One of the most powerful male sa'angreal ever made, Callandor is believed to have been constructed during the War of Power. A crystal sword with a curved blade, it is the only sa'angreal known to be made in the form of a weapon. Possibly second only to the giant male and female statues, it was believed able to channel enough of the One Power to level a city. Perhaps aware of the danger inherent in such a weapon, its makers placed the sword within the Stone of Tear and specially shielded it sometime during the Breaking of the World, probably in an attempt to protect it from maddened male Aes Sedai.

I find it interesting that its the only weapon shaped sa'angreal. I think the sword shape of this sa'angreal will be instrumental.(If only because Rand likes swordplay)

Also:
"He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one."

"What do you mean about Callandor?" "It is flawed," she replied curtly, "lacking the buffer that makes other sa'angreal safe to use. And it apparently magnifies the taint, inducing wildness of the mind. So long as a man is using it, anyway. The only safe way for you to use The Sword That Is Not a Sword, the only way to use it without the risk of killing yourself, or trying to do the Light alone knows what insanity, is linked with two women, and one of them guiding the flows."

I think these two mean that the sword will be instrumental in the last battle using 2 female and one male channeler. Further supported by the cover of the last book.

that mankind shall come to the Crossroads of Twilight and all that is, all that was, and all that will be shall balance on the point of a sword

Perhaps this sword is callandor, and the entire future of the pattern relies on the sword.

TOM:“I see you, a brilliant white sword held in your hand, wielded against one of black, held by a faceless darkness.”

Min's viewing to me indicates further that callendor will be wielded by Rand against the dark one.


What hand can grasp that fearful blade?
“A glowing sword, Callandor; being gripped in a black hand. [...] "Callandor, held in a fist. The hand looks to be made of onyx."”

I think maybe a special hand needs to be used to unlock the true terangreal power of the sword, and conveniently rand needs just such a hand. I also like the imagery used in the excerpts of the kareathon cycle where the reborn one, will face the shadow. All the talk of whaling and grinding of teeth, as well as the idea of having to pay in pain for your salvation is very biblical. Whatever happens between Rand and the shadow in the last battle, it will not be without blood being paid. The parallel to Catholic beliefs is very interesting in that Christ used his blood to pay for the sins of mankind. Just like Rand's blood being spilled to bring the Light. Anyways, Thats me getting sidetracked, however here is one more connection I found in the terminology used to describe the bore:

TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 30 - To Heal Again
A murmur rose among the Yellows, and Nynaeve prepared to bask in their compliments. She would accept their apologies gracefully. Then she heard what they were saying. "... used Fire and Earth as if she were trying to bore a hole through stone." That from Dagdara. "A smoother touch would be better," Shanelle agreed. "... see where Fire might be useful in problems with the heart," Therva said, tapping her long nose. Beldemaine, a plump Arafellin with silver bells in her hair, nodded thoughtfully. "... if the Earth were combined with Air just so, you see...." "... Fire woven into Water...." "... Earth blended with the Water..'.."

The bold part is a little description of some of Nyneave's new healing technique. It uses the word "bore". And also notice the use of Fire and Earth, typically male aes sedai specialties(Egwene excepted). If Nyneave is involved with the fixing of the bore (see the cover), maybe her ability to see how to heal things, will show her how to heal the monstrousity that is this rip in the pattern.

Cabadrin
11-06-2012, 04:36 AM
@codetoast:

You have convinced me saidin gateways was the root technology that led the scientists at Collam Daan to the method used for the Bore. The Bore would not be conventional gateway though, but a gateway to a location outside the Pattern, not easily achieved or the Forsaken, guided by Lanfear, would have opened another, unsealed, Bore. Once opened, I would expect the DO to hold it open, no tying off the weave would be needed - in fact I believe you have explained the explosion: the DO interfered with the weave, leading to a partial unweaving.

According to the interviews, Callandor was produced at a time when *angreal were mass-produced for the War, there should be nothing unusual about it except for the accidental flaw. I suspect you have uncovered one of the deliberate falsehoods in TWOTWOT. The Callandor survived because once the flaw was found it was no longer used, and later probably because of a Foretelling that it would be needed in the final sealing of the Bore.

Min's viewings are usually symbolic; the viewing of Rand wielding Callandor against the DO need not represent a physical battle, only that Callandor will be used in sealing the Bore.

I decribe a possible use of unweaving to seal the Bore in my post #16 in the Min to the rescue thread.