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Davian93
10-24-2012, 02:46 PM
This is for spoiler tag free discussions of chapter two...which was recently transcribed by several super awesome TLers. Thanks guys!



First thoughts:

1. The double-bond was interesting and long thought about by fans of the books.

2. Was it Logain they were referring to with "they have him" at the end of that portion of the thread.

3. Interesting that Rand used the Great Game in his note...assuming it was indeed written by him.


Second thoughts:

1. The chapter felt rushed like everything else in these early releases so far...zero description of the surroundings.

Zombie Sammael
10-24-2012, 03:00 PM
I'm wondering if it's less because it was actually rushed than because of the sheer amount of content by way of action that they need to fit in. Although I've always said that it was certain they would get to everything that was meant to be in, there is no denying that it was always going to be tight, and that this is certain to be one of the longest books in the series. I'd imagine some of the fault would lie with RJ as well, in rushing to complete as much as he could, and that Brandon and the rest of Team Jordan would be reluctant to "enhance" any prose written by him. I'm sure the book will be the best book it could possibly be, it's just that as compared to some of the finer entries in the series it may not measure up, sadly.

Davian93
10-24-2012, 03:01 PM
I'm assuming its something along those lines.

Terez
10-24-2012, 03:04 PM
This chapter melted my brain. The whole conversation between Pevara and Androl was dumb, dumb, dumb. And the double-bond thing was dumb too...one of those things Brandon thought would be neat so he did it. I hope they offer up AMOL at a cheap price, because so far the content is very cheap.

fionwe1987
10-24-2012, 03:08 PM
This chapter melted my brain. The whole conversation between Pevara and Androl was dumb, dumb, dumb. And the double-bond thing was dumb too...one of those things Brandon thought would be neat so he did it. I hope they offer up AMOL at a cheap price, because so far the content is very cheap.
I agree that the presentation of the content of that conversation and the way the double bond was described was idiotic. But both were long expected. I don't think Brandon came up with either part.

Terez
10-24-2012, 03:13 PM
The possibility was theorized about, but I think it's going a little far to say it was expected.

Davian93
10-24-2012, 03:14 PM
This chapter melted my brain. The whole conversation between Pevara and Androl was dumb, dumb, dumb. And the double-bond thing was dumb too...one of those things Brandon thought would be neat so he did it. I hope they offer up AMOL at a cheap price, because so far the content is very cheap.

Yup, you just got repped for that. So very accurate.

fionwe1987
10-24-2012, 03:15 PM
That said, I think the double bond is very theory worthy. Pevara can feel Androl holding the Source, and feel how he feels about it. She can judge his strength. Presumably he can do the same. Now, this type of bond can only exist between two channelers. Which begs the question... is mutual bonding the solution to the separation between male and female channelers that Meirin was trying to dive so long ago? Will understanding of the other half of the Source, as well as ability to use it increase for those who are mutually bonded? What if they link? Do they even need to link?

Davian93
10-24-2012, 03:15 PM
The possibility was theorized about, but I think it's going a little far to say it was expected.

It was one of those dumb off the wall theories along the lines of "What would happen if you made a gateway to 10 feet behind you and then used balefire on yourself" kinda crap.


Very very stupid...fan-fic level stuff basically.

SauceyBlueConfetti
10-24-2012, 03:16 PM
It seems Pevara could see his memories, but it faded after the double bond. So, will she (we) know what his true back story is now?

Pfffft, not thrilled with Elayne getting her abilities back to channel reliably. I always believed that would be a bit of a key in her death (hehehehe) and/or the birth of the children.

What surroundings needed explaining? We already had that on Androl and Pevara in the earlier releases, and the rain outside is fairly descriptive. Avi and Elayne are in a tent. I guess I don't understand your complaint on this.

fionwe1987
10-24-2012, 03:16 PM
The possibility was theorized about, but I think it's going a little far to say it was expected.
Fair enough, for the double bond. But the Reds learning to work with men, and Pevara leading that charge, was more than merely theorized, IMO.

Davian93
10-24-2012, 03:18 PM
It seems Pevara could see his memories, but it faded after the double bond. So, will she (we) know what his true back story is now?

Pfffft, not thrilled with Elayne getting her abilities back to channel reliably. I always believed that would be a bit of a key in her death (hehehehe) and/or the birth of the children.

What surroundings needed explaining? We already had that on Androl and Pevara in the earlier releases, and the rain outside is fairly descriptive. Avi and Elayne are in a tent. I guess I don't understand your complaint on this.


The writing just feels really off...that's the best I can say about it. The prose did not flow so to speak.

Zombie Sammael
10-24-2012, 03:19 PM
The conversation between Pevara and Androl seemed to drag, and seemed intensely similar to conversations they've had in the past. You would have thought by now Pevara would have at least managed to put aside whatever prejudices she had about men who could channel, and Androl would have put aside his feelings about the Red Ajah, to work together to escape the situation they're in. Instead they keep going round in circles.

I liked the dual bond. I thought the way it was described and the effect it had on both was pretty well done, and I'm glad we've finally seen something we were including in an RPG ten years ago officially. It read to me as though dual bonding "completed" the bond between the pair, in that they are able to fully sense one another's thoughts in a manner that AS and Warder never could. It is the single aspect with the most theory potential in this chapter; I wonder what the applications of it are, since with all these new discoveries, there seems to be some corollary that comes along later - Nynaeve's healing of severing leading to a new method of healing, travelling leading to deathgates, etc. It's an area I've been reluctant to enter into because it's until now seemed like looney speculation, but since bonding seems to keep being mentioned alongside turning to the Shadow, I wonder if it's the key to turning someone back to the light (or at least undoing the turning), if that is going to come into play - as it very well might with Pevara the last remaining light-aligned AS at the BT.

Terez
10-24-2012, 03:23 PM
The writing just feels really off...that's the best I can say about it. The prose did not flow so to speak.
The dialogue is just empty. Hardly any reactions to anything, or indications of what either one of them is thinking. And the conversation itself is very contrived in places.

Crispin's Crispian
10-24-2012, 03:36 PM
It is the single aspect with the most theory potential in this chapter; I wonder what the applications of it are, since with all these new discoveries, there seems to be some corollary that comes along later - Nynaeve's healing of severing leading to a new method of healing, travelling leading to deathgates, etc. It's an area I've been reluctant to enter into because it's until now seemed like looney speculation, but since bonding seems to keep being mentioned alongside turning to the Shadow, I wonder if it's the key to turning someone back to the light (or at least undoing the turning), if that is going to come into play - as it very well might with Pevara the last remaining light-aligned AS at the BT.

It's funny--it didn't even occur to me to be disdainful of the double-bond. Sure, I thought it was something that had been discussed, but I just automatically assumed it would figure in to the plot later on. Well, like the next chapter when Androl and Pevara are taken in for their turning.

The dialogue and writing did feel a little...empty, now that you mention it.

Sid
10-24-2012, 03:45 PM
Pfffft, not thrilled with Elayne getting her abilities back to channel reliably. I always believed that would be a bit of a key in her death (hehehehe) and/or the birth of the children.

This actually seems to go against what we learn from Crossroads of Twilight. The Aiel Wise One Monaelle tells her channeling will become difficult and may become more so as the pregnancy progresses. While giving birth she will not be able to channel at all, but after the birth she will be able to again without issues. From a woman that birthed seven babes herself, I take it that she knows what she's talking about. To be able to channel reliably again before giving birth doesn't follow.

suttree
10-24-2012, 03:54 PM
Wanted to share this gem of a breakdown from Luckers over at DM...

Pevara: I'm Aes Sedai, you're a man who can channel. You scare me.
Androl: I can't trust you.
Pevara: I can help you plan your coup against Taim. He's taken the rest of my sisters. That totally happened. I cried. Off screen.
Androl: You offer yourself as bait?
Pevara: Say what now?
Androl: Ah sarcasm.
Pevara: You really don't know anything about Aes Sedai do you?
Androl: Wait, what about your ideas for the coup?
Pevara: We're discussing Aes Sedai now. Keep up.
Androl: Well, sure I know alot about Aes Sedai. I know all your innermost flaws.
Pevara: So you've spent time studying us?
Androl: Oh no, I've avoided you as best I can.
Pevara: Then how can you know about flaws none but the Wise One's, some Kinswomen and maybe Fortuona know about.
Androl: I read this thread: http://www.dragonmou...f-an-aes-sedai/ . How did you know about those other things?
Pevara: eWoT, idiot. Let's link.
Androl: Well, okay, just so long as you don't freak out on me.
Pevara: Don't be silly. Now, break the laws of physics and initiate the link. Don't worry, I misunderstood something I studied earlier. It will work.
Androl: Okay...
Pevara: ZOMG YOU'RE CONTROLLING ME!!!!! #MindRapeBond
Androl: You said you wouldn't freak out. Just for that... #MindRapeBond.
Pevara: Well, that was certainly interesting.
Androl: Oh yes. I enjoyed it, myself. Look, the door is opening. I, the weak one, will take steps to protect us from the very likely reality that we're about to be Mindraped in a far less congenial way. You just stand there and wax lyrical about the One Power. Good girl.
FanStandInChild: Hey Mum! I'm on TV!!!
Pevara: Calm down sparky, at this stage it's just a book. Now, what terrible news do you have?
FanStandInChild: Weilyn 13.0 just rocked up. You can infer that Logain might suffer the same fate.
Pevara: OH NO NOT LOGAIN!!!!!
Androl: Poor Melare. She seemed nice.
Pevara: Who?
Androl: Never mind. Onward and upward my friends! Into the breach!
Pevara: You're strange. I have a feeling we're going to end up together.
Androl: Say what now?
Brandon: To be continued....

Classic.

Also was banging my head against the wall as Elayne spells out for the fans in detail the purpose of Rand's letter and then goes on to announce he is playing the Game of Houses. Very subtle. :rolleyes: Characters tendency to spell out everyting is right up there with the "dumbing down one side when in conflict" as the worst for me uner Brandon.

Davian93
10-24-2012, 03:54 PM
This actually seems to go against what we learn from Crossroads of Twilight. The Aiel Wise One Monaelle tells her channeling will become difficult and may become more so as the pregnancy progresses. While giving birth she will not be able to channel at all, but after the birth she will be able to again without issues. From a woman that birthed seven babes herself, I take it that she knows what she's talking about. To be able to channel reliably again before giving birth doesn't follow.


Clearly the plot needs her to be able to channel again.

Davian93
10-24-2012, 03:56 PM
Wanted to share this gem of a breakdown from Luckers over at DM...



Classic.

Also was banging my head against the wall as Elayne spells out for the fans in detail the purpose of Rand's letter and then goes on to announce he is playing tehGame of Houses. Very subtle. :rolleyes: Charcaters tendency to spell out everyting is right up there with the "dumbing down one side when in conflict" as the worst for me uner Brandon.

I think Luckers version was better written.

Tsofu
10-24-2012, 03:57 PM
Firstly, many thanks to the transcriber/s!! I've no interest (like many) in audio books of WoT.
That said, the Androl/Pevara POV felt...lumpy, uneven? The dialogue just didn't -here's that word again- flow. Which was nothing compared to that -IMO-bizarre behavior of Aviendha. Since when do wise ones skulk around like maidens? And why should she? The reasoning given just struck me as thin. Avi spent HOW many months in Caemlyn? There isn't a single guard that wouldn't know her on sight and admit her to Elayne's presence in a heartbeat. It rang false false false.

Tsofu

ShadowbaneX
10-24-2012, 04:20 PM
The plot, or some semi-fan service? The chapter leaves off with Aviendha saying that she'll get Min to come over. How much do you want to bet that her being able to channel will largely her being able to perform or at least participate in the first-sisters thing between Avi & Min?

Dom
10-24-2012, 04:24 PM
The dialogue is just empty. Hardly any reactions to anything, or indications of what either one of them is thinking. And the conversation itself is very contrived in places.

Yeah, it's pretty terrible. Pevara and Androl sound like 10 years old role-playing adults.

The palm of sheer absurdity for me goes to Rand's letter and Elayne finding a blunt attempt at reverse psychology an example of fine daes'daemar that makes her proud of Rand's skills.

I have this mental image of Brandon when he created that passage remembering how he had convinced his three years old to eat his broccoli and thinking "oh yeah that was devious and brilliant of me, let's have Rand use my neat trick".

Another one of those "let's forget the details of how it happened" moments :D So Rand sent a letter, and Elayne found the content showed Rand's skills at daes'daemar, and as for the content, it doesnt matter an we never found out what it was :P

But overall it's the same problems as earlier. It's both bloated and rushed. Brandon as the Kevin Anderson disease of repeating the same stuff over and over from scene to scene.

Tollingtoy
10-24-2012, 04:34 PM
The only real question here is---is Logain turned?

Terez
10-24-2012, 04:38 PM
Dom—That reminds me of something that bothered me in the prologue that I never mentioned. Androl thinking about how clever Emarin was with insults. If your characters are being clever with insults, you don't have to insult the intelligence of your readers by saying so, nor do you have to diminish the maturity of your character by having him say so.

TT—I doubt it. I think Logain sent them both in to inspect, like Rand did with Naeff, one by one.

Zombie Sammael
10-24-2012, 04:42 PM
The only real question here is---is Logain turned?

Almost certainly not, and if he is, it means there will be a turning back. There is still glory in his future from Min's viewing, don't forget, and it's difficult to see how that glory could be anything but fleeting if he's a mindlessly evil servant of the Shadow. The foreshadowing is that he will become M'Hael, and to some extent take Rand's place over the Asha'man. Remember also that we were told in the final chapters of TOM that "Logain would soon return, and all would be right with Taim". We're told almost exactly the same thing again here - he'll always be back "soon" or "tomorrow". I think this probably means that he is in a bad situation, but is somehow eluding the Shadow - perhaps he escaped into the Blight on his way to the Town and M'Hael's forces are pursuing him. Alternately, and slightly more speculatively, perhaps it is possible for the strong-willed to resist the turning procedure; some evidence for this might be found in Egwene's ter'angreal vision where Rand claims to be holding madness at bay in the same sentence as telling her they can turn him (though obviously he hasn't been turned yet in the test). Whatever the situation, I think if Logain had been turned we'd have seen it on screen already. Something else is being set up, and the real question is what.

Tsofu
10-24-2012, 04:43 PM
The only real question here is---is Logain turned?

Tollingtoy has a point. IF Logain is turned, it means a whole other layer of story telling because we're going to have to witness (from some POV or another) the resurrecting of Logain, since we know from Min's viewings, just how much awesome-sauce Logain is going to shower on the LB.
And where does this resurrecting come from? He has bonded what, 2 Aes Sedai?

Tsofu

suttree
10-24-2012, 04:48 PM
Why does Avi ask Elayne if she has Toh? Didn't she tell Rand that is exactly what you are NOT supposed to do when teaching him?

Sid
10-24-2012, 04:51 PM
Clearly the plot needs her to be able to channel again.

And whose plot might that be? RJ's? I know there was plenty of things open to interpretation but previous books leave a certain amount of framework that set boundaries to work within. If a 'cool idea for a scene' doesn't work within those boundaries, then give a decent explanation for why it doesn't or drop it entirely. Too bad.

Another thing, not specific to the chapter but sorta relevant nonetheless. I kept remembering an episode of the Simpsons from looooong ago, where Bart's trying to get some girl to like him and it's really awkward. She eventually says "Do you ever think anything you don't say?"

Tollingtoy
10-24-2012, 04:52 PM
Is glory always necessarily a good thing? Aren't people seeking "glory" generally thought of as bad or shallow people?

arioch
10-24-2012, 05:03 PM
Why does Avi ask Elayne if she has Toh? Didn't she tell Rand that is exactly what you are NOT supposed to do when teaching him?

Mangin asks Rand the same question in around TFoH/LoC. Before Rand has him hanged.

Is glory always necessarily a good thing? Aren't people seeking "glory" generally thought of as bad or shallow people?

Logain doesn't really know he has glory ahead of him.

Min, Siuan, and Leane know.

Terez
10-24-2012, 05:07 PM
Rand told Logain about the viewing in COT.

sleepinghour
10-24-2012, 05:08 PM
Logain doesn't really know he has glory ahead of him.

Rand told Logain about Min's viewing, so he does know that there's glory ahead.
A faint scowl appeared on Logain’s face, and he shook his head slightly. He could not like hearing Min question her ability. Rand almost regretted telling him about her viewing of him, though it had seemed harmless encouragement at the time. The man had actually asked Aes Sedai to confirm Min’s ability, though he had been wise enough to try to keep his doubting from Rand.

arioch
10-24-2012, 05:09 PM
Ah. I hadn't gotten there in my current re-read yet. I was just going off my impression of Logain prior to his "escape" from the SAS.

The plot, or some semi-fan service? The chapter leaves off with Aviendha saying that she'll get Min to come over. How much do you want to bet that her being able to channel will largely her being able to perform or at least participate in the first-sisters thing between Avi & Min?

"He shall hold a blade of light in his hands and the three shall be one"

suttree
10-24-2012, 05:17 PM
Mangin asks Rand the same question in around TFoH/LoC. Before Rand has him hanged.


Very different situation and not worded the same but meh. I guess "I must know if I have toh to you" is close enough. Avi did advise Rand against it and says it embarrases her for him to seem so ignorant however. That makes the whole thing very odd.

Weiramon
10-24-2012, 05:17 PM
Aren't people seeking "glory" generally thought of as bad or shallow people?

Burn my soul, that's absurd.

Zombie Sammael
10-24-2012, 05:20 PM
Very different situation and not worded the same but meh. I guess "I must know if I have toh to you" is close enough. Avi did advise Rand against it and says it embarrases her for him to seem so ignorant however. That makes the whole thing very odd.

Not really, when in practically the same breath she says that Wetlanders are odd and unpredictable. It didn't seem out of place to me for that reason - she doesn't really know when it comes to Wetlanders.

Zombie Sammael
10-24-2012, 05:21 PM
Is glory always necessarily a good thing? Aren't people seeking "glory" generally thought of as bad or shallow people?

Seeking =!= finding.

Terez
10-24-2012, 05:31 PM
Not really, when in practically the same breath she says that Wetlanders are odd and unpredictable. It didn't seem out of place to me for that reason - she doesn't really know when it comes to Wetlanders.
So you were the one capitalizing wetlanders!

PS—The transcript will disappear soon.

Zombie Sammael
10-24-2012, 05:35 PM
So you were the one capitalizing wetlanders!

PS—The transcript will disappear soon.

Sorry! (the fact that I did it in my bits might have been a giveaway)

77jester
10-24-2012, 05:39 PM
So you were the one capitalizing wetlanders!

PS—The transcript will disappear soon.

It disappeared as I was reading it.

Southpaw2012
10-24-2012, 05:45 PM
I agree that the Pevara and Androl scene was annoying but I didn't have that much of a problem with Aviendha. Back to actual plot discussion, it definitely sounds like Logain is planning on returning soon with a "bang." It's almost too obvious from the scene in this chapter and in ToM that the battle of the BT will begin soon

David Selig
10-24-2012, 05:48 PM
Yeah, it's pretty terrible. Pevara and Androl sound like 10 years old role-playing adults.

The palm of sheer absurdity for me goes to Rand's letter and Elayne finding a blunt attempt at reverse psychology an example of fine daes'daemar that makes her proud of Rand's skills.

I have this mental image of Brandon when he created that passage remembering how he had convinced his three years old to eat his broccoli and thinking "oh yeah that was devious and brilliant of me, let's have Rand use my neat trick".

Another one of those "let's forget the details of how it happened" moments :D So Rand sent a letter, and Elayne found the content showed Rand's skills at daes'daemar, and as for the content, it doesnt matter an we never found out what it was :P

The most ridiculous part is that Elayne figured out Rand's plan in a nanosecond (naturally, since it was beyond obvious) yet she was all "what a smart plan, he's getting good at this" even though it didn't work at all at fooling her.

Why was an Andoran messenger bringing Rand's letter to Elayne, BTW? The whole scene makes no sense.

Terez
10-24-2012, 05:52 PM
Sorry! (the fact that I did it in my bits might have been a giveaway)
I wasn't keeping up with whose bits were whose.

suttree
10-24-2012, 05:53 PM
The most ridiculous part is that Elayne figured out Rand's plan in a nanosecond (naturally, since it was beyond obvious) yet she was all "what a smart plan, he's getting good at this" even though it didn't work at all at fooling her.

Why was an Andoran messenger bringing Rand's letter to Elayne, BTW? The whole scene makes no sense.

You know things are getting bad when David starts piling on! ;)

1Powerslave
10-24-2012, 08:16 PM
I very much enjoyed the chapter. Though it might be that just reading new material is the joy.

I didn't think of the Pevara-Androl conversation as childish, or anything that passed between them, when I listened to it. Pevara lashing out was properly explained, tied to a trauma she had and the extra stigmatization of male channelers that Reds harbour. There is also precedence with Alanna bonding Rand, same with the long intent to bond him.

Some complain that Brandon go in circles having them react as if Pevara has not been at the BT for a long time. I find that the Black Tower plot is so neglected, and so seldom pushed forward, I can't feel time passing there any more. And so it doesn't matter to me. And maybe having them moving past the issues would've have felt as if it came out of nowhere to me.

Silly Aviendha behaving as a Maiden again, and the letter, the letter...

Also I had hope that Aviendha would go straight to Rand. Needless waste of time and pages to visit Elayne (except for learning Elayne wont try to take Caemlyn back). But as SBX noted, this is probalby a prep for the sister bonding ceremony with Min and Aviendha. I wish they wouldn't do that though, it feels of and out of character for them to do that, they aren't even that friendly yet. Really Aviendha don't have time to get news from Elayne, much less sister bond with Min. She needs to save her people! Not talk with Rand five minutes before the meeting.

Random thought; I wish Min hadn't been bonded the way she was. That way seems needless with the wife bond. I wish instead Rand had learned the wife bond and Min had insisted that he bond her.

Might be I will react differently when I read the chapter instead of listening to it. Right now I'm okay with it except the points mentioned above.
But I've ever since Brandon started writing Wot criticised him on spelling out too much to the reader and writing characters out of character and badly. Then I was pretty alone in criticising him. Now there is a storm of criticism, funny that.

Dom
10-24-2012, 09:08 PM
The most ridiculous part is that Elayne figured out Rand's plan in a nanosecond (naturally, since it was beyond obvious) yet she was all "what a smart plan, he's getting good at this" even though it didn't work at all at fooling her.

Exactly.

Why was an Andoran messenger bringing Rand's letter to Elayne, BTW? The whole scene makes no sense.

What do you mean it makes no sense? :D

We're in the camp where everybody has managed to infiltrate tons and tons of spies in the other groups in a mere 24 hours in some cases, where Rand who's been there a few hours has developped a good work relationship and learned the whole back story of Sebban Balwer who had previously managed to keep secret his background from everyone, just like that. It's not only DF Rand can spot now, he knows all the plot points he didn't know before (just mention Asmodean, he'll explain how exactly Graendal did it), unless it's a scene where another character needs to look intelligent, then he magically will drop 60 IQ points just like that.

Isn't it obvious that this is not a real Andoran messenger but one of the 344 spies (all of them bearing weird names, that's because they're not real characters but WOT fans in disguise) Sebban Balwer's managed to infiltrate in Elayne's inner circle over the last 24 hours. Actually it's one of the 122 of those Renee Harfor has discovered in the last few hours and turned as double agents to spy on Rand. That poor guy in particular has been bought by Balwer to spy on Elayne in the afternoon, has been found and tasked by Renee to feed false reports to Balwer who, having forgotten who he was, has infiltrated him this time in Berelain's entourage, who used him as messenger to Galad by dusk, and Galad was about to send Berelain his answer when he remembered he could use an extra spy near Egwene so he gave the guy a white shawl and told him to just look cold and distant and shift the conversation whenever someone talked to him and no one would be the wiser he ain't AS, but alas he bumped into Siuan who took him for a really ugly laundress working for a white, spoke of his eyes and his ears and sent him with a whole basket of smallclothes to the river where Balwer's agents who were spying on the fish (and occasionally on the laundresses) pretending to be fishing sent him to fetch more bait in the Cairhienin camp where he got recruited by a Saldaean-Two Rivers-Illian triple agent who sent him to spy on Perrin's camp where Rand saw him and commented "who the heck are you?" - "Well, I'm a spy for Tenobia or Perrin or Gregorin, two laundresses, about to be hired as a spare-time Blue Ajah eyes-and-ears - I think, Galad, Berelain, you and I think originally I was a Kandori who's faking a Caemlyn accent taught to me by Lord Mat while I worked as a cook for the Band of the Red Hand, before Mat sent me to work as a spy in the palace kitchens as a carpenter who's aged grandmother had once be a maid to Elayne's great aunt, except I can't hit a nail if I tried, that's just something very clever Lord Mat calls "a legend" that he picked in some mysterious old tome called the CIA manual, so Mistress Harfor decided to reassign me as a messenger before I hammered anyone's finger.

- "I see, you obviously have a lot of experience and I can trust you. Take this to Elayne. And for Light's sake, look mysterious and Cairhienin while you hand the letter, with the Andoran uniform that will suitably puzzle Elayne. Oh, I'm playing such a deep game here. Where's Moiraine? Perrin! Am I supposed to know yet that Moiraine is alive?".

- "Dunno, ask Balwer."

Terez
10-24-2012, 09:45 PM
The most ridiculous part is that Elayne figured out Rand's plan in a nanosecond (naturally, since it was beyond obvious) yet she was all "what a smart plan, he's getting good at this" even though it didn't work at all at fooling her.
Exactly.
"All right," Birgitte said as the door to the smaller chamber closed. "What in the name of the Dark One's bloody left hand just happened?"

Elayne sat down. It had worked! Or it seemed as if it would. The plush chair was a comfort after the stiffness of the Lion Throne. Dyelin took a seat to her right; Morgase sat to her left.

"What happened," Morgase said, "is that my daughter is brilliant."
.

Isabel
10-25-2012, 12:45 AM
I can understand most of the comments about this chapter. However, i still enjoyed it:D even though sometimes thinking RJ would have done it differently.

Tedman
10-25-2012, 01:43 AM
As bad as the writing in Chapter 2 is, it is understandable for the characters in that situation. I would still never compare it to the abortions KJA produced in the Dune saga.

How dare you sir.

He started with the X-wing Star Wars novels. Get your god damn facts straight.


Also am I just screwed and I have to listen to this thing ? Figures I don't troll this board for one day while I'm busy with some stupid crap.


Edit:
Pevera did her very best to ***intense pain***

If these AshaMAHN :Gunshot:

That sums up how I feel about this audio book.

SamJ
10-25-2012, 03:04 AM
Ahhh! I tell myself again and again to make allowances for BS - but no. This stuff is just depressing. I know it's not RJ so am alert for every little thing and getting thrown out of the story all over the place. And I know this and am trying to stop myself. AND I have what feels like the collective voice of Theoryland in my head reminding me of each issue. At this rate AMOL will drive me crazy ....

Seriously, not much to add here except that I was really impressed by Pevara's oh-so-clever ability to steer the conversation exactly where she didn't want (go Aes Sedai skills!); by her changing life-goals (thought she was in the red to catch DFs which might have been worth mentioning given the situation); and by the way Androl apparantly assumes he knows any leather-worker anywhere (clearly they have the best union in RL). And then there was action-girl Avi which I think was supposed to be funny.

Sarevok
10-25-2012, 04:07 AM
I didn't really have any issues with any of it (probably for the same reason as 1PS), except for the Elayne thing people already mentioned. I have a sneaking feeling they're setting up Rand to say "Why are you still here?" at the meeting later on, and it turns out it wasn't Daes Dae'mar after all... If he does that, it'll be kinda disappointing. :(

GonzoTheGreat
10-25-2012, 05:41 AM
As for Pevara and Androl going nowhere: there is a possibility that they were a bit nervous. Caught up in a "fight or flight" rush with nothing to fight and nowhere to flee too. Plus, neither of them seems particularly experienced at seduction, which made things even more awkward for them. Pevara should have asked Mat for advice when he was in the Tower, but she obviously failed to take that precaution.

About Rand's letter to Elayne:
She knew he was trying to manipulate her into staying. She suspected that he knew that she knew. She also suspected that he knew that she suspected that he knew tha she knew. That's the clever bit she admired: she could not figure out precisely how many levels deep this knowing went.
Plus, he gave her advice (don't go) without insulting her by blatantly giving that advice.

I do wonder whether or not the Warder that Aviendha spotted was there on legitimate business. If he was a DF, that could bring some interesting complications in following chapters.

We also only have 5 chapter left to see Mat packed off on a honeymoon holliday. How will that be managed without seeming contrived?

Zombie Sammael
10-25-2012, 06:28 AM
Exactly.



What do you mean it makes no sense? :D

We're in the camp where everybody has managed to infiltrate tons and tons of spies in the other groups in a mere 24 hours in some cases, where Rand who's been there a few hours has developped a good work relationship and learned the whole back story of Sebban Balwer who had previously managed to keep secret his background from everyone, just like that. It's not only DF Rand can spot now, he knows all the plot points he didn't know before (just mention Asmodean, he'll explain how exactly Graendal did it), unless it's a scene where another character needs to look intelligent, then he magically will drop 60 IQ points just like that.

Isn't it obvious that this is not a real Andoran messenger but one of the 344 spies (all of them bearing weird names, that's because they're not real characters but WOT fans in disguise) Sebban Balwer's managed to infiltrate in Elayne's inner circle over the last 24 hours. Actually it's one of the 122 of those Renee Harfor has discovered in the last few hours and turned as double agents to spy on Rand. That poor guy in particular has been bought by Balwer to spy on Elayne in the afternoon, has been found and tasked by Renee to feed false reports to Balwer who, having forgotten who he was, has infiltrated him this time in Berelain's entourage, who used him as messenger to Galad by dusk, and Galad was about to send Berelain his answer when he remembered he could use an extra spy near Egwene so he gave the guy a white shawl and told him to just look cold and distant and shift the conversation whenever someone talked to him and no one would be the wiser he ain't AS, but alas he bumped into Siuan who took him for a really ugly laundress working for a white, spoke of his eyes and his ears and sent him with a whole basket of smallclothes to the river where Balwer's agents who were spying on the fish (and occasionally on the laundresses) pretending to be fishing sent him to fetch more bait in the Cairhienin camp where he got recruited by a Saldaean-Two Rivers-Illian triple agent who sent him to spy on Perrin's camp where Rand saw him and commented "who the heck are you?" - "Well, I'm a spy for Tenobia or Perrin or Gregorin, two laundresses, about to be hired as a spare-time Blue Ajah eyes-and-ears - I think, Galad, Berelain, you and I think originally I was a Kandori who's faking a Caemlyn accent taught to me by Lord Mat while I worked as a cook for the Band of the Red Hand, before Mat sent me to work as a spy in the palace kitchens as a carpenter who's aged grandmother had once be a maid to Elayne's great aunt, except I can't hit a nail if I tried, that's just something very clever Lord Mat calls "a legend" that he picked in some mysterious old tome called the CIA manual, so Mistress Harfor decided to reassign me as a messenger before I hammered anyone's finger.

- "I see, you obviously have a lot of experience and I can trust you. Take this to Elayne. And for Light's sake, look mysterious and Cairhienin while you hand the letter, with the Andoran uniform that will suitably puzzle Elayne. Oh, I'm playing such a deep game here. Where's Moiraine? Perrin! Am I supposed to know yet that Moiraine is alive?".

- "Dunno, ask Balwer."

The messenger was a girl.

Davian93
10-25-2012, 08:20 AM
"Well, I'm a spy for Tenobia or Perrin or Gregorin, two laundresses, about to be hired as a spare-time Blue Ajah eyes-and-ears - I think, Galad, Berelain, you and I think originally I was a Kandori who's faking a Caemlyn accent taught to me by Lord Mat while I worked as a cook for the Band of the Red Hand, before Mat sent me to work as a spy in the palace kitchens as a carpenter who's aged grandmother had once be a maid to Elayne's great aunt, except I can't hit a nail if I tried, that's just something very clever Lord Mat calls "a legend" that he picked in some mysterious old tome called the CIA manual, so Mistress Harfor decided to reassign me as a messenger before I hammered anyone's finger.


"...saw Ferris pass out at 31 Flavors last night, I think its pretty serious."

"Thank you, Simone."

jana
10-25-2012, 12:53 PM
We also only have 5 chapter left to see Mat packed off on a honeymoon holliday. How will that be managed without seeming contrived?

And probably the meeting. And probably Moiraine reuniting with Rand (If the writing continues as is, I may vomit during that part)

But actually you counted wrong unless there's something I'm unaware of. 11-2=9

GonzoTheGreat
10-25-2012, 01:02 PM
But actually you counted wrong unless there's something I'm unaware of. 11-2=9
11, 8, what's the difference?
My math was right, I had just accidentally repressed* the memory of three chapters. Once you've read them, you may wish you could do that too. :D

Edited to add:
You counted wrong. There are only 8 chapters in between 2 and 11, not 9. :p

* Still can't remember having read them. Which, of course, proves they were horrible, or something.

Terez
10-25-2012, 01:15 PM
11, 8, what's the difference?
My math was right, I had just accidentally repressed* the memory of three chapters. Once you've read them, you may wish you could do that too. :D

Edited to add:
You counted wrong. There are only 8 chapters in between 2 and 11, not 9. :p

* Still can't remember having read them. Which, of course, proves they were horrible, or something.
When all else fails, count on fingers.

GonzoTheGreat
10-25-2012, 01:32 PM
When all else fails, count on fingers.
Difficult, for many people, when the count goes to 11.

Dom
10-25-2012, 01:55 PM
Am I the only one who thinks Logain and a majority of his faction are simply at Merrilor awaiting to hear Rands announcements like nearly everybody else? A comment by Perrin about sending all of them to Caemlyn's rescue suggested that the Asha'man are there.

I believe there's a high chance "Logain's visit" with a puzzling and "earth-shattering" announcement to make about a reconciliation with Taim is a convenient and simple pretext Taim came up with to gather everyone in one place (likely indoors - his palace, if the downpour goes on) and "deal with them". It could have been something else, the Logain story is clever as most BT denizens will want to hear first hand that surprising Logain announcement, and as it's Logain they might not be suspicious or on their guard (or wouldn't be, if not for Pevara and Androl having put the soldiers/dedicated on their guard).

I think much like Rand sent Naeff recently, Logain quite possibly sent his own spies, some of whom appeared to have been captured/taken and turned, and one is simply used now to sell the deception Logain has joined Taim and is coming. Unless "Logain" channels, no one would know his strength, a simple Mask of Mirrors can provide a credible Logain, if Taim even goes as far as that with the deception, showing himself with his "Logain" before the meeting to convince people he's really there..

It's very hard to tell what is the time gap now between the new Pevara scene and the events of Merrilor. I guess perhaps the cloud cover never lift over the BT itself, and there's a possibility the scene happened as the attack on Caemlyn is ongoing, the unnatural downpour meant to cover the sound and lights in the night sky four leagues north from the "light side" denizens of the BT.

What of the 47 Tower envoys? Taim may intend to deal with them once he's finished with those inside, or perhaps he will have a pretext to invite them in to hear Logain's "big announcement".

There's been too much set up for Androl and Pevara not to escape somehow, but if those events aren't now synced to those of Merrilor, the big question is why have Rand and co. not heard of anything by now. Androl probably has no idea where the Asha'man are, but in a matter of hours at most he should be able to find about Merrilor. Hard to come up with something that would credibly delay them for days etc., except perhaps they don't escape the next day, but get captured by Taim's faction, held some more time awaiting the 13x13 ritual.

I suspect Taim is waiting until the last minute to turn Pevara as a contingency plan, in case he needed to buy time and use her to talk to an envoy of Elaida (actually, it would be Tsutama, or Egwene now),. A turned Pevara wouldn't work - the effects are too visible, and now Javindrah is exposed as BA and wouldn't do either. That left keeping Pevara untouched, to be Compelled if Taim needed to show someone nothing's happened to the Reds. For the Rebels, he simply didn't touch them. WT envoys have come and go and the WT believes they're simply forced to wait.

Terez
10-25-2012, 02:12 PM
Difficult, for many people, when the count goes to 11.
But you get to start with 3!

As for Logain...I'm not quite sure what to expect there. I can envision lots of different scenarios; I'm not sure any of them are really foreshadowed.

Weiramon
10-25-2012, 02:29 PM
Burn my soul, this Ablar fellow has clearly abandoned his post in fear of great battle to come.

No doubt some wit will claim he and his cronies have been captured and sent deep into the Blight, along with fanciful tales of being unwillingly turned to the Shadow, as though a supply of mad savages had dwindled, and now all that is left is a former false Dragon with an inflated reputation based on serving wenches' gossip.

greatwolf
10-25-2012, 03:54 PM
I think BS has done better chapters than this. The characters were off. But I can still take it if it doesn't happen all through the book. But what really worries me is that it isn't really like a WoT book. For instance what of the channeling? Why did Avi go sneaking through the camp when she could have used the power to remain undetected? She had this problem before when she was an apprentice - she's acting like a maiden when she should be thinking like a WO. And she didn't even think about it and Elayne is admiring her for it?

If anything, the training to be a WO is more in shaping the mind than anything else. If Avi is still reasoning like a maiden, then she was raised too soon. And what of her terangreal dagger? Does she still have it? Will she give it to Rand? RJ's books were always very rich in all sorts of content. I hope BS remembers that.

Also I noticed a similar problem in chapter 1. Nynaeve, one of the strongest women with a strong Talent for healing and a very strong angreal was tired after just one healing. And she actually makes the comparism to Moiraine who was already exhausted before attempting to heal Tam and isn't as strong as nyn and has a weaker angreal? Is this error or a new plot twist at this stage?



It's very hard to tell what is the time gap now between the new Pevara scene and the events of Merrilor. I guess perhaps the cloud cover never lift over the BT itself, and there's a possibility the scene happened as the attack on Caemlyn is ongoing, the unnatural downpour meant to cover the sound and lights in the night sky four leagues north from the "light side" denizens of the BT.

I think its still far behind. Whatever Rand intended to do, its likely over by this time. The one thing I wonder about is if the seanchan have anything to do with the resolution of the BT impasse.

I think Logain is about to pull a clever one on Taim. It might be possible to use mobile gates (deathgates) against Taim's entrapment.

Weiramon
10-25-2012, 04:06 PM
I think its still far behind. Whatever Rand intended to do, its likely over by this time.

Burn my soul, that must be right. It's not as though the Lord Dragon would send a trusted Asha'man, like that Naeff fellow, just the day before this pageant at Merrilor.

Tollingtoy
10-25-2012, 04:24 PM
The BT storyline is behind all of the others, so if Logain is at Merrilor, it is because he has already resolved the issue with Taim

Aulis Vaara
10-25-2012, 05:37 PM
Like many others here, I was very disappointed by the way Aviendha was depicted. The very low point is when she's babbling and actually asks "Do I have toh?" No Aiel would ever ask that question. Least of all a Wise One.

They're also not a very vocal people, preferring to watch and figure out their mistakes on their own.

TankSpill
10-25-2012, 06:36 PM
So, thinking about Logain.

Taim seems to be promising that Logain will be back "tomorrow" (Chapter 2). I feel like we can be pretty sure that Logain is not going to be turned - he still has to experience his glory, and I feel that he has been built up to be much more than just a turned toady for Taim.

So, what if disguises himself as Logain to get close to Rand? Maybe kill him (or even start the turning process, that could/would then lead to having to have a good guy kill Rand to save his soul). This could definitely work with the dream of Logain stepping over Rand's body.

I'm not sure how else it works, it just seems to me to be very suspicious that Taim has put out word that not only is Logain coming back tomorrow, but he's reconciled his differences.

Just a thought more than any sort of full-blown theory, obviously...

WinespringBrother
10-25-2012, 07:29 PM
I liked it, but have a few nitpicks:

Androl somehow learned how to do the saidin bonding weave without the "extra bit" lol or the kissing.

If Aviendha is going to sneak around, why not use all her abilities - channeling would be very useful.

Why didn't Elayne weave a ward against eavesdropping if she doesn't have channeling problems?

When Aviendha was noticed inside the tent, "all 3 High Seats jumped up, reaching for swords" - Lady Dyelin carries a sword now?

sleepinghour
10-25-2012, 08:38 PM
Another issue is that the woman in a male/female circle has to be the one who initiates the link and passes control of it to the man, like Nynaeve does at the Cleansing. This is also confirmed elsewhere in the books.
"Then link with me. The pair of us linked would be more than a match for al'Thor. Let that be the beginning of our new standing together." [Sammael's] scar tightened as he smiled at the sudden blankness on [Graendal's] face. The link had to come from her, but with only the two of them, she would have to give him control and trust him to choose when to end it.

Women can initiate a link; men cannot, though they can be part of it and even lead in certain circumstances. [...] In most cases, either a man or a woman can control the link—this is called leading, focusing, or guiding—but in the case of a circle of seventy-two, a circle of only one man and one woman, or in most circles of up to thirteen which contain more than one man, a man must lead.
So Pevara should have been able to form the link, and Androl shouldn't have been able to seize her.
She reached out to link with Androl as she would with a woman. She found nothing to grasp. It wasn't like teaching an Accepted to form a circle. There, most times she could feel something, but the girl would pull away instead of surrendering.
"Is it working?" Androl asked.
"No," Pevara said. "I had hoped that one thing I'd read about a linked man-and-woman pair wouldn't be true."
"Which is?"
"That the man, for whatever reason, must lead a mixed circle this small."
He eyed her, and she reluctantly prepared herself to join when asked. Instead, he seized her!

Terez
10-25-2012, 08:43 PM
I decided to follow my own advice in this one: pick something, and hate it.

"Well," he asked, "where does he live?"
"Back in Kandor."
But he's dead.

David Selig
10-25-2012, 09:16 PM
Does my memory deceive me or was there really "Elayne was as true a warrior as anyone Aviendha has seen" or something like this in it, since the transcript is gone and I don't feel like listening through the whole file to look for it.

Terez
10-25-2012, 09:23 PM
This is how we transcribed it:

Elayne was a warrior, as true a one as Aviendha had ever known.
But I don't feel like relistening either.

Davian93
10-25-2012, 09:35 PM
This is how we transcribed it:


But I don't feel like relistening either.

Can't imagine why.

I'd rep you again just for the pain you must have suffered while transcribing it...but I am blocked from repping you again so soon.

jameshazza
10-25-2012, 09:39 PM
Lord I hate audiobooks. Can we confirm that it is indeed not being read by Kate Reading and Michael Kramer? That passage was copied and pasted straight to here (http://text-to-speech.imtranslator.net/).

I actually liked Aviendha sneaking around. I thought it was true to her character. I think a lot of what we have seen of the Wise Ones has been other character's perceptions and the impressions of the apprentice Aviendha. For her to suddenly transform into this perfect, serene Wise One after two minutes wouldn't be very believable.

If all Aes Sedai acted like their stereotypes we would have several dull robotic characters, thankfully that isn't the case. While they all have similar traits they are allowed to have a personality.

I haven't read the transcript but it didn't seem as rushed to me. At least not the Androl and Pevara bit. I felt their was adequate description of the rain and the double bond. I also agree that there wasn't much need for description in Aviendha's narrative.

That said I agree about the dull dialogue. Although I think we can expect a lot of dialogue like that and rushed sequences, early on anyway. The Androl plot clearly needs wrapped up early as will other plots. I expect a lot of forced and rushed scenes. It's a shame but I'm not so sure it would be any different even if RJ was still here.

Also I liked how Elayne did the exact opposite of what the haters wished and expected her to do.

IvySedai
10-25-2012, 10:23 PM
Well, I am bit surprised at the reaction to chapter 2 here at TL. The general things people are complaining about (dialogue, behaviour, inability to make someone "seem" smart without making other a complete fool, lack of descriptions, teenage reasoning, etc.) are common occurrences since The Gathering Storm. I would cringe inside whenever an Aes Sedai would open her mouth, and at other things too, but people were always defending him, saying things like he was not supposed to imitate RJ. So I thought, OK, maybe I am being too judgemental, let´s give him a chance. Since then I have learned to sieve and filter what RJ really wanted show us from BS writings, for example, I usually would imagine RJ writing something on his notes like "character A is not supposed to know about X" whenever I read someone saying out loud "character A in not supposed to know about X".

So, truly, I think the chapter is pretty much in accordance with the previous books. Maybe the general reaction is due to having only weak chapters at hand, not the whole story nor the more polished chapters to dissipate the bad taste of these few chapters. I say, let´s wait for book to come out before giving opinion. I don´t think he will disapoint me; we will have the same as the previous books. And don´t get me wrong, I already thanked him profusely for accepting the task, and treating it like a fan (ToM did seemed to me a very well written fanfiction, at least regarding the meetings between long lost friends). And I don´t expect him to write like RJ. But I do have some issues that I plan to write about later.

Like, I can hold my breath and pass through differences in writing style. But I am more picky when it comes to the working mechanisms of wot, like the bonding problems people are talking about. Most are already commented here, but nobody said anything about the first-sister bond of Aviendha and Elayne. In WH, ch7, after the sister bonding cerimony, Elayne can feel that Avi is in the city. How come Elayne didn´t feel Avi reaching Merilor? And don´t give me the excuse of an answer like 'she was too worried with Caemlyn being under attack'. Because that is what it would be, an excuse, and a poor one.

And what about Elayne´s personal guard of honor? The one that took chapters of writing to Birgite form and dress? Did they disappear? Would they abandon their posts to run after intruders and leave Elayne unprotected? They would know Aviendha. Didn´t any around Elayne knew Aviendha from the palace? I understand he wanted to try and show some typical Aiel behaviour, but he did went to far back in the books for an example. It was clearly a case of a bad choice. But I am not really worried. There will be better written chapters and some precious RJ gems to look for.

Terez
10-25-2012, 11:43 PM
I was one of those defenders for TGS. My opinion started to change over the course of time and several interviews which made it clear that respect for the work was lacking. This chapter was probably not far worse than others; it just made my brain melt because I had to transcribe it and there wasn't anything exciting enough to make up for it.

Artur pendragon
10-26-2012, 12:49 AM
if anyone didn't catch peter on twitter he said that the previews were from near final drafts and that Maria has most of the errors fixed by now. so we may not see this in AMOL on January:)

newyorkersedai
10-26-2012, 01:00 AM
I didn't know you did comedy posts like I used to...


Isn't it obvious that this is not a real Andoran messenger but one of the 344 spies (all of them bearing weird names, that's because they're not real characters but WOT fans in disguise) Sebban Balwer's managed to infiltrate in Elayne's inner circle over the last 24 hours. Actually it's one of the 122 of those Renee Harfor has discovered in the last few hours and turned as double agents to spy on Rand. That poor guy in particular has been bought by Balwer to spy on Elayne in the afternoon, has been found and tasked by Renee to feed false reports to Balwer who, having forgotten who he was, has infiltrated him this time in Berelain's entourage, who used him as messenger to Galad by dusk, and Galad was about to send Berelain his answer when he remembered he could use an extra spy near Egwene so he gave the guy a white shawl and told him to just look cold and distant and shift the conversation whenever someone talked to him and no one would be the wiser he ain't AS, but alas he bumped into Siuan who took him for a really ugly laundress working for a white, spoke of his eyes and his ears and sent him with a whole basket of smallclothes to the river where Balwer's agents who were spying on the fish (and occasionally on the laundresses) pretending to be fishing sent him to fetch more bait in the Cairhienin camp where he got recruited by a Saldaean-Two Rivers-Illian triple agent who sent him to spy on Perrin's camp where Rand saw him and commented "who the heck are you?" - "Well, I'm a spy for Tenobia or Perrin or Gregorin, two laundresses, about to be hired as a spare-time Blue Ajah eyes-and-ears - I think, Galad, Berelain, you and I think originally I was a Kandori who's faking a Caemlyn accent taught to me by Lord Mat while I worked as a cook for the Band of the Red Hand, before Mat sent me to work as a spy in the palace kitchens as a carpenter who's aged grandmother had once be a maid to Elayne's great aunt, except I can't hit a nail if I tried, that's just something very clever Lord Mat calls "a legend" that he picked in some mysterious old tome called the CIA manual, so Mistress Harfor decided to reassign me as a messenger before I hammered anyone's finger.

- "I see, you obviously have a lot of experience and I can trust you. Take this to Elayne. And for Light's sake, look mysterious and Cairhienin while you hand the letter, with the Andoran uniform that will suitably puzzle Elayne. Oh, I'm playing such a deep game here. Where's Moiraine? Perrin! Am I supposed to know yet that Moiraine is alive?".

- "Dunno, ask Balwer."

newyorkersedai
10-26-2012, 01:09 AM
Yes. To everything you wrote, yes.

Well, I am bit surprised at the reaction to chapter 2 here at TL. The general things people are complaining about (dialogue, behaviour, inability to make someone "seem" smart without making other a complete fool, lack of descriptions, teenage reasoning, etc.) are common occurrences since The Gathering Storm. I would cringe inside whenever an Aes Sedai would open her mouth, and at other things too, but people were always defending him, saying things like he was not supposed to imitate RJ. So I thought, OK, maybe I am being too judgemental, let´s give him a chance. Since then I have learned to sieve and filter what RJ really wanted show us from BS writings, for example, I usually would imagine RJ writing something on his notes like "character A is not supposed to know about X" whenever I read someone saying out loud "character A in not supposed to know about X".

So, truly, I think the chapter is pretty much in accordance with the previous books. Maybe the general reaction is due to having only weak chapters at hand, not the whole story nor the more polished chapters to dissipate the bad taste of these few chapters. I say, let´s wait for book to come out before giving opinion. I don´t think he will disapoint me; we will have the same as the previous books. And don´t get me wrong, I already thanked him profusely for accepting the task, and treating it like a fan (ToM did seemed to me a very well written fanfiction, at least regarding the meetings between long lost friends). And I don´t expect him to write like RJ. But I do have some issues that I plan to write about later.

Like, I can hold my breath and pass through differences in writing style. But I am more picky when it comes to the working mechanisms of wot, like the bonding problems people are talking about. Most are already commented here, but nobody said anything about the first-sister bond of Aviendha and Elayne. In WH, ch7, after the sister bonding cerimony, Elayne can feel that Avi is in the city. How come Elayne didn´t feel Avi reaching Merilor? And don´t give me the excuse of an answer like 'she was too worried with Caemlyn being under attack'. Because that is what it would be, an excuse, and a poor one.

And what about Elayne´s personal guard of honor? The one that took chapters of writing to Birgite form and dress? Did they disappear? Would they abandon their posts to run after intruders and leave Elayne unprotected? They would know Aviendha. Didn´t any around Elayne knew Aviendha from the palace? I understand he wanted to try and show some typical Aiel behaviour, but he did went to far back in the books for an example. It was clearly a case of a bad choice. But I am not really worried. There will be better written chapters and some precious RJ gems to look for.

Tedman
10-26-2012, 02:05 AM
Difficult, for many people, when the count goes to 11.

We all have 11 fingers. And I can prove it.

Start on one hand, count down 10 - 9 -8 -7 - 6
plus the 5 on the other hand = 11.




After the time where Avi gets all embarrassed for Rand with the toh, and Elayne "if you aren't sure about your its none or very little", and then Avi the PARAFREAKINGGON of upholding Aiel ways for the readers.... asks.... I want to blow my brains out.

I do however, know who has toh.


So if these early releases are from early "final" drafts, what exactly was the rush to get them out since its still an eon until the book comes out.

greatwolf
10-26-2012, 02:12 AM
I do however, know who has toh.


So if these early releases are from early "final" drafts, what exactly was the rush to get them out since its still an eon until the book comes out.

I just hope the rest is much better. Can you imagine waiting a decade or more for the finish and Demandred gets beaten by Pevara? I don't think it will be that bad but just a little jittery here.

Yaunzaul
10-26-2012, 02:50 AM
I don't see the need to be jittery about the book. If anything, all of us should be very excited. I haven't done any re-reads, and I have been reading this series since the fall of 1999. So, granted, maybe the BS versions are bothering me less because of no re-reads. I have also made peace with RJ's passing. I always knew it wouldn't end perfectly, but it would end the way it was supposed to end.

As far as the actual chapter is concerned, I completely forgot about bond rules, and the rules about forming a circle and seizing power to form the circle. It is for these reasons I have been reading these boards for a few years now. :p While it is concerning, I am sure it will be ironed out prior to release.

Please forgive me for my lack of ready knowledge, but is it possible Androl is something else entirely allowing him to seize the power? I am sure I am being stupid, but I can't wrap my head around such a glaring oversight.

Right then. These Advil PMs are making me wonky. I apologize if my first post is rubbish, but I really love reading all of your thoughts. Dom, you are a clever one. :)

GonzoTheGreat
10-26-2012, 04:52 AM
Another issue is that the woman in a male/female circle has to be the one who initiates the link and passes control of it to the man, like Nynaeve does at the Cleansing.
Do you have a quote for that?
The version I have suggests that Rand took control from her, and she then decided that was what she'd wanted to happen.
She drew a shuddering breath. "How can you stand. . . . that?" she said hoarsely. "All chaos and rage and death. Light! Now, you must try as hard as you can to control the flows while I—" Desperate to gain his balance in that never-ending war with saidin, he did as she said, and she yelped and jumped. "You were supposed to wait until I. . . ." she began in angry tones, then went on in a merely irritated voice. "Well, at least I'm rid of it. What are you so wide-eyed about? I'm the one had her skin yanked off!"
That sure sounds as if Rand seized control from her without even realising that it shouldn't have been possible to do so according to what AS knew of it.

And what about Elayne´s personal guard of honor?
A good question. Maybe Egwene frightened them off. Or maybe they all went with Birgitte to visit some Caemlyn taverns while those were still standing. Neither explanation seems very convincing, but better ones are unavailable so far.

sleepinghour
10-26-2012, 06:05 AM
if anyone didn't catch peter on twitter he said that the previews were from near final drafts and that Maria has most of the errors fixed by now. so we may not see this in AMOL on January:)

I don't know where you got "Maria has most of the errors fixed by now" from.


sleepinghour: Nynaeve had to initiate the link in WH, and she was able to see saidar from linked pairs in KoD, yet Pevara can't.

Peter Ahlstrom: Maria is looking into it.

Terez:‏ Dunno if anyone mentioned the "Where does he live?" "Back in Kandor." First Oath issue.

Peter Ahlstrom: Send an email to Maria… I don't know what all got changed between the version they recorded for this preview and the latest fixes.

David Selig
10-26-2012, 06:12 AM
And what about Elayne´s personal guard of honor? The one that took chapters of writing to Birgite form and dress? Did they disappear? Would they abandon their posts to run after intruders and leave Elayne unprotected?
See, Elayne has become as true a warrior as Aviendha has ever known (thanks for the quote, Terez). She doesn't need bodyguards now. :p

GonzoTheGreat
10-26-2012, 06:24 AM
Even better explanation: Aviendha mistook them for servants, and hence paid them no heed at all. That's how she was able to walk in unannounced: because the guards saw her, recognised her, and knew she was allowed in without any fuss at all.

sleepinghour
10-26-2012, 06:25 AM
That sure sounds as if Rand seized control from her without even realising that it shouldn't have been possible to do so according to what AS knew of it.


What AS know about linking can probably be written on the back of a postage stamp, but Graendal and Sammael would almost certainly have known if it was possible for a man to seize control.

Nynaeve is the one who had to initiate the link at the Cleansing. That fits with that we know of m/f linking. The questionable moment is when Rand begins to control the flows, but since we don't have Nynaeve's POV, we don't know exactly what she was doing with the link at that point. She may have been reaching out with it, but was mad Rand accepted it before she had finished talking.

GonzoTheGreat
10-26-2012, 06:35 AM
If the woman could decide not to relinquish control, then there could be a link between an man and a woman with the woman in control. Since we know that's not possible, it stands to reason that as soon as the link is formed control shifts to the male.

1Powerslave
10-26-2012, 10:18 AM
So the scene with Pevara and Androl linking need to be rewritten to have Pevara succeed in taking Androl into the link, then she wont be able to channel the flows of that link because a man must lead a 2 person man/female circle, so she can only either dissolve the link or pass control to Androl... Right?

I actually think that is strange, that one can initiate the link, but not be able to control it/use it to channel with. When she has initialized the link, she isn't holding saidin? Saidar? How was it with Nynaeve and Rand?

SauceyBlueConfetti
10-26-2012, 10:49 AM
But you get to start with 3!

As for Logain...I'm not quite sure what to expect there. I can envision lots of different scenarios; I'm not sure any of them are really foreshadowed.

But, but, but, that then requires SUBTRACTION. My head hurts now.


Agreed about Logain. To be honest, that bit and the turning of the Black Tower folk is the most interesting part of the chapter. I am excited. Not bouncy, on my toes, wiggling my fingers-excited yet. Yet. But getting there.

Terez
10-26-2012, 10:51 AM
But, but, but, that then requires SUBTRACTION. My head hurts now.
Nah, we're counting on our fingers; no subtraction necessary. First chapter we haven't read: 3. Next chapter we have read: 11. Chapters we haven't read: 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. You only need 8 fingers. ;)

GonzoTheGreat
10-26-2012, 10:54 AM
How was it with Nynaeve and Rand?
I posted that specific bit only a few posts ago, in post #105 in this thread.
The main challenge (not a problem, of course) with it is that it is from Rand's point of view, and as he had never linked before that he remembered, it isn't all that informative.

GonzoTheGreat
10-26-2012, 10:56 AM
Nah, we're counting on our fingers; no subtraction necessary. First chapter we haven't read: 3. Next chapter we have read: 11. Chapters we haven't read: 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. You only need 8 fingers. ;)
I warned you, didn't I?
I said that most people couldn't do it. :D

SauceyBlueConfetti
10-26-2012, 11:18 AM
Oh, and about the toh question...I was always under the impression the issue was asking PUBLICLY if you have toh to someone ELSE.

I don't feel like looking it up, but it all ties in with Rand, Sulin, Mangin, etc. Mangin asked RAND directly if he had toh because the wetlander ways were different, and it was in front of Rhuarc and Berelain. Rand asked spear sisters if he had toh TO SULIN -which was deemed embarassing for Rand and Avi who was teaching him about toh, because Sulin was not there. (And by-the-by, both those situations were RJ's writing, so back off the Brandon-bash there before investigating)

So Avi to Elayne seemed acceptable, but I could be wrong.

Peter Ahlstrom
10-26-2012, 12:26 PM
I don't know where you got "Maria has most of the errors fixed by now" from.

After the earlier tweets you posted, I heard from Maria, so I later tweeted what he said.

The audio previews are recorded from either the copyedit version or the first pass proofs. Maria made a lot of spot fixes after the first pass proofs. Hopefully the final audio version is not as out of sync with the final book as TOWERS was.

1Powerslave
10-26-2012, 02:32 PM
I posted that specific bit only a few posts ago, in post #105 in this thread.
The main challenge (not a problem, of course) with it is that it is from Rand's point of view, and as he had never linked before that he remembered, it isn't all that informative.
That is only a partial quote, there has to be something before it. It is needed to compare the whole procedure.

What we do have shows beyond resonable doubt that the part where the man seizes saidar from the woman is identical in both scenes. They have opened themselves up to being seized, but grabbing saidar from them roughly is always inpleasant. And the unpleasantness is probably proportional to quickness/roughness of grabbing it. Hehehehe, RJ is so dirty. :D

jana
10-26-2012, 02:55 PM
RJ is so dirty.

"Countless thousands of sparkling lights, like stars or fireflies, rushed into a great blackness, trying to fill it up, rushed in and were swallowed."

Yaunzaul
10-26-2012, 02:58 PM
"Countless thousands of sparkling lights, like stars or fireflies, rushed into a great blackness, trying to fill it up, rushed in and were swallowed."



Look Who's Talking!

1Powerslave
10-26-2012, 03:05 PM
"Countless thousands of sparkling lights, like stars or fireflies, rushed into a great blackness, trying to fill it up, rushed in and were swallowed."Haha. :D

sleepinghour
10-26-2012, 03:11 PM
That is only a partial quote, there has to be something before it. It is needed to compare the whole procedure.
Winter's Heart:

"You must put yourself right on the edge of embracing the Source," she told him, smoothing skirts that did not need smoothing. "Then I can link with you." [...]
"Now," he said, and reached for the Source through the bearded man. Reached, but did not seize it. He hung on the brink, wanting to howl with the agony as flickering flames seemed to broil him even while shrieking winds blasted particles of frozen sand across his skin. Watching Nynaeve take a quick breath, he knew it lasted only an instant, yet it seemed he endured for hours before . . .
Saidin flowed through him, all the molten fury and icy tumbling, all the foulness, and he could not control a hair-thin thread. He could see the flow from him into Nynaeve. To feel it seething through him, feel the treacherous tides and shifting ground that could destroy him in a heartbeat, to feel that without being able to fight or control was an agony in itself. He was aware of her, he realized suddenly, in much the same way he was aware of Min, but all he could think of was saidin, flooding through him uncontrolled.
She drew a shuddering breath. "How can you stand . . . that?" she said hoarsely. "All chaos and rage and death. Light! Now, you must try as hard as you can to control the flows while I—" Desperate to gain his balance in that never-ending war with saidin, he did as she said, and she yelped and jumped. "You were supposed to wait until I . . . " she began in angry tones, then went on in a merely irritated voice. "Well, at least I'm rid of it. What are you so wide-eyed about? I'm the one had her skin yanked off!"


AMoL:
"Well," Pevara said, "I've never actually done it with a male channeler, of course. I did some reading before I came down here, but much of what we have is hearsay. If you were a woman, I'd tell you to put yourself on the edge of embracing the Source, then open yourself to me. That would let me establish a link with you."
"All right," he said. "You're not holding the Source, however."
It was downright unfair that a man could tell when a woman was holding the One Power and when she wasn't. Pevara embraced the Source, flooding herself with the sweet nectar that was saidar. She reached out to link with Androl as she would with a woman. She found nothing to grasp. It wasn't like teaching an Accepted to form a circle. There, most times she could feel something, but the girl would pull away instead of surrendering.
"Is it working?" Androl asked.
"No," Pevara said. "I had hoped that one thing I'd read about a linked man-and-woman pair wouldn't be true."
"Which is?"
"That the man, for whatever reason, must lead a mixed circle this small."
He eyed her, and she reluctantly prepared herself to join when asked. Instead, he seized her! She was pulled into a tempestuous link—yanked, as if by her hair, right in. He was unpracticed, and the force of it nearly made her teeth rattle. He did establish it on his first try, which was remarkable. Pevara closed her eyes and did not let herself fight back—that would dissolve the circle—but she couldn't help a moment of sheer panic.

So Nynaeve could establish a link, but Pevara couldn't. As I said before, we don't know exactly what Nynaeve was doing with the link when Rand began to control the flows, so that scene doesn't necessarily contradict Sammael's claim that Graendal would have to give him control.

Terez
10-26-2012, 03:26 PM
I suspect this is one of those instances of Brandon trying to fix what he sees as a continuity error, because there was some discussion about why Nynaeve was able to hold control of the link at all. But as sleepinghour said, she never did anything with it, so there's no reason to assume she had real control. I'll be interested to see if Maria fixes it, and I wonder if she addressed this in the editing process. It wouldn't be the first time that Brandon ignored her advice, only to force her into retconning it when the fans complained.

sleepinghour
10-26-2012, 03:48 PM
After the earlier tweets you posted, I heard from Maria, so I later tweeted what he said.

The audio previews are recorded from either the copyedit version or the first pass proofs. Maria made a lot of spot fixes after the first pass proofs. Hopefully the final audio version is not as out of sync with the final book as TOWERS was.

Okay, thanks for clarifying, Peter. I was not aware the audio preview was from an earlier draft. While I hope everything works out well with the audio book, from the more selfish point of view of a fan, it would be interesting if the deleted scene Brandon talked about (the one he initially wanted to include in Unfettered) made it into the audio book. One of the foreign editions of ASoIaF included a deleted scene because someone had sent the translator an earlier draft of the book, so it wouldn't be the first time an accident happened while juggling different editions of a book.

I suspect this is one of those instances of Brandon trying to fix what he sees as a continuity error, because there was some discussion about why Nynaeve was able to hold control of the link at all. But as sleepinghour said, she never did anything with it, so there's no reason to assume she had real control.

I just meant that we don't know if Rand seized control from Nynaeve completely without Nynaeve's consent, in the same way that Androl seized Pevara. Sammael said Graendal would have to give him control. Nynaeve might have been in the process of doing that, and her annoyance was because Rand didn't wait for her to give a verbal command.

Sid
10-26-2012, 06:25 PM
So Nynaeve could establish a link, but Pevara couldn't. As I said before, we don't know exactly what Nynaeve was doing with the link when Rand began to control the flows, so that scene doesn't necessarily contradict Sammael's claim that Graendal would have to give him control.

Right, Pevera didn't establish the link. We know that she did not, and if she had, she would have had her first experience with saidin, which she obviously did not have. So Androl, who cannot establish a link, did. This is a continuity error. Anything happening after that doesn't effect the fact that Androl establishing a link with Pevara instead of the other way 'round is not how it works. Once she does establish it, Androl could presumably do what Rand did to Nyneave, but not before.

Dom
10-26-2012, 09:03 PM
Anything happening after that doesn't effect the fact that Androl establishing a link with Pevara instead of the other way 'round is not how it works.

Right.

A man can't establish a link. It involves surrendering to the One Power. The furthest a man can go is surrender to the will of a woman who surrender to saidar through him, and seize saidin as it comes into play.

Rand, exactly like Sammael said, specifically thought that he could not use a thread of saidin that flowed through him as the link was established. From what we know, Nynaeve couldn't either, but she had to surrender control to Rand eventually. She had started relinquishing control when Rand yanked it from her (she was probably doing this too slowly for a newcomer man, Rand probably acted on instinct, freaking out about this uncontrolled power passing to him, he just seized it. Nynaeve is forceful for a saidar user, and she did something fairly similar while demonstrating linking with Elayne in TPOD: Elayne was surrendering it softly, Nynaeve yanked it early).

The Pevara scene is in error. She should have surrendered to saidar through Androl to establish the link - and that required Androl to surrender himself to her without seizing saidin but open to it, and he couldn't grab control from her either, she had to relinquish it before he could seize it.

Of course, the BA apparently has a way to force a woman into a circle (details unknown) which was apparently a third age discovery unknown in the AOL and which the rest of the AS deem totally impossible to perform, as they deem totally impossible to force a man in a circle (they've tried, and failed), as he needs to surrender himself to the link. But I'd put my money on a Brandon blunder rather than Androl having just done the impossible.

77jester
10-26-2012, 10:09 PM
Lord I hate audiobooks. Can we confirm that it is indeed not being read by Kate Reading and Michael Kramer? That passage was copied and pasted straight to here (http://text-to-speech.imtranslator.net/).

I actually liked Aviendha sneaking around. I thought it was true to her character. I think a lot of what we have seen of the Wise Ones has been other character's perceptions and the impressions of the apprentice Aviendha. For her to suddenly transform into this perfect, serene Wise One after two minutes wouldn't be very believable.

If all Aes Sedai acted like their stereotypes we would have several dull robotic characters, thankfully that isn't the case. While they all have similar traits they are allowed to have a personality.

I haven't read the transcript but it didn't seem as rushed to me. At least not the Androl and Pevara bit. I felt their was adequate description of the rain and the double bond. I also agree that there wasn't much need for description in Aviendha's narrative.

That said I agree about the dull dialogue. Although I think we can expect a lot of dialogue like that and rushed sequences, early on anyway. The Androl plot clearly needs wrapped up early as will other plots. I expect a lot of forced and rushed scenes. It's a shame but I'm not so sure it would be any different even if RJ was still here.

Also I liked how Elayne did the exact opposite of what the haters wished and expected her to do.

I totally agree with you on all of your points. Avi sneeking around like a maiden is not out of character for a wise one, especially a new WO. Even Amys still pretended to be a maiden in TaR after years of being a WO. Besides Avi has already shown a reluctance to use the power instead of her own ability in the past, she's not going to all of a sudden use the power only. As for Elayne not sensing her, it could just be that she has too many things on her mind at the moment to acknowledge Avi's presence. She is bonded to 4 other people, it's perfectly justifiable to excuse this lapse.
I'm not quite sure where I stand on the issues with the double bond and the letter from Rand. Again, they can be excused, but part of me doesn't want to.

greatwolf
10-27-2012, 06:20 AM
I totally agree with you on all of your points. Avi sneeking around like a maiden is not out of character for a wise one, especially a new WO. Even Amys still pretended to be a maiden in TaR after years of being a WO.


Sorry the two don't match up. If Avi sneaked into Elayne's tent naturally or test her guards, I'd be happy. But then where were the honour guard? She should have noticed that or her sneaking was worse than useless.

And Amys was embarrassed when she was caught doing it. Avi isn't. What really makes me anxious is that BS seems to be overwhelmed by the detail in WoT in a way I didn't expect. I thought slips like this could be prevented with the help of team Jordan.

The way the Egwene scenes in the seanchan raid were written still gives me the dreads. She showed a lack of ingenuity with the OP that the episode was barely worth reading. At least for me. If much of the encounters in amol are like that...

GonzoTheGreat
10-27-2012, 06:32 AM
The way the Egwene scenes in the seanchan raid were written still gives me the dreads. She showed a lack of ingenuity with the OP that the episode was barely worth reading. At least for me. If much of the encounters in amol are like that...
In the Tower scene, Egwene had to be the best of the AS, which, I think you'll admit, is not a particularly taxing standard. During TG the standard will be "outwit the likes of Narg", and that's gonna be a whole other challenge.

greatwolf
10-27-2012, 12:28 PM
In the Tower scene, Egwene had to be the best of the AS, which, I think you'll admit, is not a particularly taxing standard. During TG the standard will be "outwit the likes of Narg", and that's gonna be a whole other challenge.

Dunno, I somehow expected that the seanchan attack would be the beginning of redemption for the AS. With tossing aside of old traditions and a willingness to embrace change. This is the transition period between two ages and everyone else seeems to be changing. Egwene was probably being built up as an agent of change up to that point. But I haven't seen much change since then. It maybe that BS just didn't want to let us have the big stuff before the final book but he might have missed a lot of the subtler details of RJ's work.

GonzoTheGreat
10-27-2012, 12:41 PM
Or maybe, unbeknownst to us all, the Aes Sedai are already perfect, and hence do not need to change.

Dom
10-27-2012, 01:24 PM
Egwene was probably being built up as an agent of change up to that point. But I haven't seen much change since then. It maybe that BS just didn't want to let us have the big stuff before the final book but he might have missed a lot of the subtler details of RJ's work.

Egwene was built up as an agent of change when her Amyrlin story line began. It is still in her personality. But it's RJ who began to show her gradually recuperated and swallowed by the White Tower system which work like a giant entropy producing machine, allowing only little steps of changes at a time, and fighting them even then. In a lesser measure (she's not at the heart of the system), even Nynaeve too is starting to be recuperated by the WT system.

Ultimately, I think RJ's intent was a demonstration that Egwene's revolution to rejuvenate the White Tower would work only to a very limited extent in the long run, and as she progressed in the system she'd find less and less the need and motivation to make radical changes. It's much the same with Kin, WO, Windfinders. In RJ's mind, those are systems female channelers will build, and they all have a strong inclination to hold off changes.

Ultimately, Egwene's build up as an innovator/reformer will come back into play when the male channellers will return. They're the real agents of change. In the meantime, RJ wanted Egwene to understand better and value more the edifice of traditions represented by the WT. She needs Logain, integrating the Asha'man will be the energizing boost that will challenge Egwene and bring her back on the ground of reformation and bigger compromises.

greatwolf
10-27-2012, 02:36 PM
Egwene was built up as an agent of change when her Amyrlin story line began. It is still in her personality. But it's RJ who began to show her gradually recuperated and swallowed by the White Tower system which work like a giant entropy producing machine, allowing only little steps of changes at a time, and fighting them even then. In a lesser measure (she's not at the heart of the system), even Nynaeve too is starting to be recuperated by the WT system.

Ultimately, I think RJ's intent was a demonstration that Egwene's revolution to rejuvenate the White Tower would work only to a very limited extent in the long run, and as she progressed in the system she'd find less and less the need and motivation to make radical changes. It's much the same with Kin, WO, Windfinders. In RJ's mind, those are systems female channelers will build, and they all have a strong inclination to hold off changes.

Ultimately, Egwene's build up as an innovator/reformer will come back into play when the male channellers will return. They're the real agents of change. In the meantime, RJ wanted Egwene to understand better and value more the edifice of traditions represented by the WT. She needs Logain, integrating the Asha'man will be the energizing boost that will challenge Egwene and bring her back on the ground of reformation and bigger compromises.


Agree to an extent that bringing in the males will be a major catalyst to change but how much has Egwene done to prepare AS minds for that event? Egwene and Suian both know how much AS resist change. But do they accept the need for males? Even after the "treaty"?

Egwene cited the need to heal the tower for raising Silviana, but made no mention of the future of the ajah. In AS politics, that could be bad. Having an ally in a top position whose power base has been weakened could weaken Egwene's own position, Amyrlin or no.

Few AS would support anything red after the disaster Elaida's tenure brought. And Romanda and Lelaine are still very much interested in the top job. Or have they suddenly lost interest? Like I said earlier, its the details that are so lacking.

greatwolf
10-27-2012, 02:44 PM
The changes needed though, are a part of the battle against the DO. The pattern needed an agent of change and set up Egwene for the task. She has common ground with Rand (if not with LTT!) and understands the WOs as a "honorary" WO. But she missed the momentum offered by the attack to press the AS for change. At the very least, better training as weapons - in seanchan methods that she is conversant with. All she done is the attack is attend to reports. Ok, ok, we know she had to deal with Mesaana.

But unless somethings happened off screen, then she's being set up as a rather lazy traditional Amyrlin.

fionwe1987
10-28-2012, 12:11 AM
But unless somethings happened off screen, then she's being set up as a rather lazy traditional Amyrlin.
Brandon clearly wanted some of Egwene's actions in ToM to be off screen to maintain suspense. He gave us no clue that she did extensive research on the Seals issue. All we got was her quoting ancient Brown scholars suddenly, and when I pointed out that was a hint that she had been doing research, few believed.

Similarly, we see her think about quickly raising powerful Accepted to AS, and how every woman would be needed for TG. I take that to be a hint that Egwene has Aes Sedai training for TG, and raising as many sisters as she can. Clumsy as the hiding of all this is, I think we can be fairly certain its all happening.

fionwe1987
10-28-2012, 12:12 AM
The way the Egwene scenes in the seanchan raid were written still gives me the dreads. She showed a lack of ingenuity with the OP that the episode was barely worth reading. At least for me. If much of the encounters in amol are like that...
Yup. I can't begin to explain all the stupid stuff in that scene. I mean... lightning and balls of fire? We know Egwene can do more than that. You have her head a link of 13, and drawing the OP through the strongest sa'angreal in the Tower, and we get fireballs and lightning? That was very disappointing.

Boli
10-29-2012, 10:30 AM
One interesting thing I noticed, is Pevara could SENSE when he seized Sadain; an error or a quirk of the double bonding?

GonzoTheGreat
10-29-2012, 10:36 AM
Maybe Pevara is a hermaphrodite. We'd wondered before how that would impact channeling, but RJ hadn't been willing to answer that.

Davian93
10-29-2012, 10:51 AM
One interesting thing I noticed, is Pevara could SENSE when he seized Sadain; an error or a quirk of the double bonding?

I'd lean towards quirk of the double-bond in that case.

Boli
10-29-2012, 11:01 AM
Given the man had to initiate bonding in this case it could also be bad editing :P

GonzoTheGreat
10-29-2012, 11:02 AM
Maybe the whole scene will be scrapped in the final version?

GonzoTheGreat
10-30-2012, 06:29 AM
I realised yesterday that there's apparently yet another case of symbolism involved in Moridin's colors: the red and black now stand for the turned Red sisters and the corrupted Black Tower they are working with. Neat, that.

Aulis Vaara
10-30-2012, 09:25 AM
Brandon isn't doing a bad job at all. That said, someone at Team Jordan should've swallowed their pride and hired the core Theoryland ensemble to nitpick everything apart. Even if this made the release cycle twice as long, it'd be totally worth it.

Maybe the whole scene will be scrapped in the final version?

I sure hope not. It's an interesting scene and kind of important, even if it is imperfect.

As for Androl being able to bond Pevara without kissing her: I always thought that the kiss was important because of its intimacy, an intimacy that is reflected in the bond. This intimacy is already present in the bond that Pevara created between them, and hence why Androl didn't need a kiss to weave his own bond.

That, or the Pattern did it.

GonzoTheGreat
10-30-2012, 09:42 AM
There's another explanation, and that one actually makes sense:
We know that the movements, hand wavings and such with which AS accompany a lot of weaves are not actually really necessary. They are simply aides in teaching. But once a weave has been learned with such an accompanying gesture, it is almost impossible to do without. Androl hadn't really learned how to do this bonding weave, he had merely seen the weave formed by others. So he could learn to do it in another way, and did.

Thus, the surprise is not (or should not be) that he could do it without a kiss. That should be quite possible for most Asha'man who haven't bonded someone already. The real surprise is that, weak as he is, he still managed to gather enough Power to manage this weave.

1Powerslave
10-30-2012, 09:56 AM
Brandon isn't doing a bad job at all. That said, someone at Team Jordan should've swallowed their pride and hired the core Theoryland ensemble to nitpick everything apart. Even if this made the release cycle twice as long, it'd be totally worth it.
I think they've already done this to some extent by having the leaders of various online communities as beta readers. Jason has been for a long time, and iirc Tamyrlin was for the last book and probably this one as well, and I think some other community founder.
And if Tam is beta reading he'll catch lots of this stuff.


I sure hope not. It's an interesting scene and kind of important, even if it is imperfect.

As for Androl being able to bond Pevara without kissing her: I always thought that the kiss was important because of its intimacy, an intimacy that is reflected in the bond. This intimacy is already present in the bond that Pevara created between them, and hence why Androl didn't need a kiss to weave his own bond.

That, or the Pattern did it.
The kissing part sounds like the "hand waving" that Aes Sedai do but Wise Ones don't. So a talented channeler like Androl might've seen the weave and learned it without hand waving. Though it goes against the established pattern that channelers of the same group learn a weave the same exakt way and it is hard to unlearn it or learn it in yet another way.
It would be to see that scene with a kiss as well. But a kiss wont read as well as a panicky reflex revenge counterstroke as just the weave does. :)

1Powerslave
10-30-2012, 10:00 AM
Thus, the surprise is not (or should not be) that he could do it without a kiss. That should be quite possible for most Asha'man who haven't bonded someone already. The real surprise is that, weak as he is, he still managed to gather enough Power to manage this weave.
I haven't gotten the feeling that the bonding weave requires a significant amount of strength. Can't all Aes Sedai do it? And there are Aes Sedai that are very weak. That part of it looks okay to me, even if it turns out there are quotes to back up your claim.

Aulis Vaara
10-30-2012, 10:09 AM
There's another explanation, and that one actually makes sense:
We know that the movements, hand wavings and such with which AS accompany a lot of weaves are not actually really necessary. They are simply aides in teaching. But once a weave has been learned with such an accompanying gesture, it is almost impossible to do without. Androl hadn't really learned how to do this bonding weave, he had merely seen the weave formed by others. So he could learn to do it in another way, and did.

I fail to see how this explanation makes more sense than mine. For this one, Androl needs to overcome his teachings (if he's had any) or he needs to perform a weave he's may or may not have seen done to others.

On the other hand. We know that the first male channeler to discover bonding did so during a kiss. If it's not the physical kiss that counts, but the intimacy, none of that matters. It would explain why a kiss led to the bond, if they're both a form of intimacy, and it would also explain how Androl could replicate the weave, without the need to have learned or seen it before.

GonzoTheGreat
10-30-2012, 10:33 AM
I haven't gotten the feeling that the bonding weave requires a significant amount of strength. Can't all Aes Sedai do it? And there are Aes Sedai that are very weak. That part of it looks okay to me, even if it turns out there are quotes to back up your claim.
There are also (quite a lot) of women who are too weak to be ever accepted as AS. The Black Tower doesn't have such a lower limit, however.
The impression I've gotten so far is that if Androl had been a woman, then she wouldn't ever have been considered suitable for the test for the shawl.

I doubt that Morgase or even Sorilea could bond a Warder even if they saw the weave. While Androl is probably stronger than Morgase, he may not be stronger than Sorilea is.

1Powerslave
10-30-2012, 10:56 AM
There are also (quite a lot) of women who are too weak to be ever accepted as AS. The Black Tower doesn't have such a lower limit, however.
The impression I've gotten so far is that if Androl had been a woman, then she wouldn't ever have been considered suitable for the test for the shawl.

I doubt that Morgase or even Sorilea could bond a Warder even if they saw the weave. While Androl is probably stronger than Morgase, he may not be stronger than Sorilea is.
True. I guess his talent for gateways is messing with my strength assessment of him. Though I can't recall a reference to the actual strength used when bonding. Sure it's a pretty complex weave as seen in the bonding of Rand by the girls, but that is not the same thing as strength required. If anything, Androl has already proved he can make a weave that normally would require much more strength to even form. Maybe that is a general talent of his, or he has a talent for bonding as well. It still doesn't strike me as a real discrepancy. And if it turns out it is one, it's too small to bother me.

GonzoTheGreat
10-30-2012, 12:25 PM
Maybe that is a general talent of his, or he has a talent for bonding as well.
Fifty shades of Androl? ;)

WinespringBrother
10-31-2012, 11:22 AM
Moderator alert: all off-topic posts will be subjected to one of the following actions: edited/deleted/moved to a separate thread.

Please stay on topic (discussion of AMOL Chapter 2). Thank you.

Davian93
10-31-2012, 12:31 PM
Moderator alert: all off-topic posts will be subjected to one of the following actions: edited/deleted/moved to a separate thread.

Please stay on topic (discussion of AMOL Chapter 2). Thank you.

Is that from here on out or will it be enacted retroactively? I'd go with the latter oh great Moderator.

WinespringBrother
10-31-2012, 12:36 PM
Is that from here on out or will it be enacted retroactively? I'd go with the latter oh great Moderator.

Retro-I am in the process now.

ETA: All posts that were primarily about critiquing writing styles of RJ and/or BS that did not also significantly discuss content/media format from chapter 2 and all posts that were about complaining about Egwene were moved to different threads that are more appropriate for those topics. Please note that I used considerable discretion before moving any posts and that this was not done to punish anyone but rather to keep the thread on topic as much as possible (i.e. if other related WOT topics were touched on, those posts would mostly stay in this thread). Some posts that were completely off-topic (regarding Kevin J. Anderson for example) were also moved, instead of being deleted or modified for being completely off-topic. No posts have been modified (yet).

77jester
11-06-2012, 03:20 AM
Sorry the two don't match up. If Avi sneaked into Elayne's tent naturally or test her guards, I'd be happy. But then where were the honour guard? She should have noticed that or her sneaking was worse than useless.

Most of her sneaking was described as natural instinct.
Aviendha moved through the darkened camps silently.

Aviendha moved silently out of the Aes Sedai camp. Stepping softly in these wetlands with their lush plants presented different challenges than the Three-Fold Land did. There, the dry ground was often dusty, which could muffle footsteps. Here, a dry twig could inexplicably be buried beneath wet grass. She tried not to think about how dead that grass seemed. Once, she’d have considered those browns lush. Now she knew these wetland plants should not look so wan and…and hollow. Hollow plants? What was she thinking?
She did this while letting her mind race on various subjects. To me it reads as someone casually sneaking around like she's done her whole life.
The Aiel saw her, but she did not approach them. The wetlanders didn’t notice her, save for a Warder who spotted her as she skirted the Aes Sedai camp

If she was focusing on stealth, I really doubt that the other Aiel or the Warder would ignore her, but they did acknowledge that she walked by. The lack of awareness on the "wetlander" guards just emphasizes her instinctive stealth in walking around.


And Amys was embarrassed when she was caught doing it. Avi isn't. What really makes me anxious is that BS seems to be overwhelmed by the detail in WoT in a way I didn't expect. I thought slips like this could be prevented with the help of team Jordan.

Amys' embarrassment is more likely because of her age, yet still having the desires of her youth. That doesn't change the fact that it shows even WO's still yearn for their past. Avi's sneaking wasn't worthless. It went right along with her character.

The way the Egwene scenes in the seanchan raid were written still gives me the dreads. She showed a lack of ingenuity with the OP that the episode was barely worth reading. At least for me. If much of the encounters in amol are like that...

I'm sorry but, what?!:confused::confused::confused: She was in a battle of desperation. Hardly the time to get fancy with your weaves. It's not like she had past memories to suddenly start weaving new attacks her current self hadn't thought of. If Egwene would have done something like Rand did, it would have cheapened how extraordinary his weaves and past memories really were.
She also had to endure channeling for quite a long time. Simple actions are easier to maintain than complicated moves. She also was still limited by the forkroot at first, so she needed to pace herself until it was completely gone.
That was one of my favorite chapters in tGS, but I realize we all have different tastes, so all I can say is I'm sorry you were disappointed.

pkhill
11-11-2012, 07:17 PM
I'll bet just about anything Logain can't be flipped because he was severed and then healed... I'd imagine there'll will be a silly sequence of him pretending to be all dark, but then winking at his buddies, followed by a big reveal where he saves the day. Something about the severing-healing process removed the 13*13 turning vulnerability. Mark my words! That is the only thing that makes him unique.

Dom
11-11-2012, 08:41 PM
I'll bet just about anything Logain can't be flipped because he was severed and then healed... I'd imagine there'll will be a silly sequence of him pretending to be all dark, but then winking at his buddies, followed by a big reveal where he saves the day. Something about the severing-healing process removed the 13*13 turning vulnerability. Mark my words! That is the only thing that makes him unique.

It's not a bad idea, though I can't really see how he could fake the result of the process in a convincing way, especially not knowing in advance what it's supposed to be like during the process. It also supposes the Dreadlords in the circle are totally oblivious to the fact something's wrong with the process when they try it on Logain.

Since it's a soul thing, my hunch is the one on whom the process might fail is Pevara and anyone who's been bonded by/has bonded another channeler.

No one knows she's bonded to Androl, and if no Asha'man bonded to an AS has been captured, the Shadow might have no clue why it doesn't work on Pevera, buying her a few days in a dark cell rather than death, as Taim contacts Moridin about the whole thing.

But it may not with Pevara a problem is discovered.

It looks like Logain's faction is about to fall into a trap. Some of his men have already been turned.

Logain and part of his faction may not come to "save the day" at all but rather to end up captured. Perhaps he's really agreed to come to the BT the next day. and Taim is boasting that he's come for a reconciliation because he knows Logain is scheduled to go through the 13x13 ritual as soon as he shows up.

But it won't work on Logain nor on his men who bonded AS. This would create a dilemna for Taim if these men's Aes Sedai aren't with them... if he kills them because the process don't work, their AS know where they are and that they went to a meeting with Taim, and there's no telling who the women will alert if the Asha'man who bonded them are killed (and I could well imagine Logain going to that meeting after having warned Gabrelle that if he doesn't return in X days, she must find Rand and tell him what happened). If those events are happening close to Merrilor's day, this could be disastrous for Taim as Rand has a few thousands of channelers gathered... Taim wouldn't have much choice but to keep Logain and his men with bonds prisoners. Taim's men may have made a mistake by announcing Logain's coming. Androl may very well figure out something seems wrong, something has happened with the announced meeting that finally isn,t taking place, and eventually figure out Logain's men have come for real and it's those not bonded who are turned, and none of the men who bonded an Aes Sedai is anywhere to be seen. Could it be bonded people are immune? What do Pevara think of the theory? What does she know of the process? This could bring Pevara to the decision (or at least considering it) of bonding herself all the men who aren't turned yet to prevent their turning (or for a funnier twist, the soldiers and dedicated start bonding one another...)... but this would mean Androl has very little time left to solve his gateway problem, rescue Logain and his men and get out of there before Taim have all the unturnable men not bonded to someone currently outside the BT killed. Eventually all the Light's channelers would be encourage to bond, to prevent the turning, a fate worse than death, if they are captured.

But actually, the bond may also not protect from the turning for events to take a very similar path. You only need Logain to come to the BT without his bonded AS, when Taim expected him and his men to come with them for Taim to decide to capture Logain and the bonders without turning them, as it's very likely the 13x13 ritual would immediately be sensed by the bonded sisters and alert them something's very wrong, warn Rand and spoil the "surprise" and spark a massive attack of the Light on the BT. It's all well and good to divide the Light and bait part of it to Andor, but if Rand decides to bring near all his channelers from Merrilor to Caemlyn, the Shadow will lose the Shadowspawn army, lose the BT and Taim will have nothing to do but flee in the face of overwhelming forces.

There can't be some major victory for the light at the BT at the beginning of TG, it would deprive the Shadow of most of its Dreadlords, and this would really suck. Taim's gotta win this round to a large extent.

My hunch is that Naeff's spying will save the the 47 envoys of Egwene, however. Either he will convince them to leave, or as soon as he reports to Rand they will get orders to vanish from there under cover of the next night. IMO we'll see them resurface at Merrilor soon (maybe on day 2 or something), around the time Rand sits down with Egwene after the main meeting to discuss the Asha'man/AS stuff as he promised her they would. Rand's directly responsible for sending these women there, for having pushed aside Logain's advice about Taim. If something happens to those women, Egwene will never, ever forgive Rand and AS/Asha'man relations would again be in jeopardy. I could see Naeff returning to Rand in the reminder of the eve of Merrilor's night, Rand meeting him off screen and the 47 envoys showing up later on Merrilor's day. Then as this comes out and Rand explains what he believes is happening at the BT - thinking he's avoided the worst and now the big issue are the families of the Asha'man caught there, several of which are bonded wives who could drive his men crazy if killed and would otherwise be used as hostages making Asha'men extremely distracted and anxious instead of focussed on the LB, the Red Sitters will come forward with the disappearance of Tarna and Pevara, and Javindrah who is no doubt on Verin's list of BA. And Rand who thougth he had avoided AS meddling in this will find Egwene still involved after all.

The Light can't have it too easy, even with "super Rand", problems and obstacles need to pile up.

It striked me that what Aviendha finds out as she goes retrieve Bair at Rhuidean is a gigantic Shadowspawn army about to raze the Aiel's "sacred city". The Aiel and their WO are one the major groups Demandred would want to break up from Rand. Another early target of the Shadow might be Bandar Eban, to make the Sea Folk freak about losing their fleet in the harbor.

If a similar attack to draw the AS back to TV and hold them there a while is to happen, it also has to happen very fast, during Merrilor, because destroying their Waygate in the TV grove will be one of the first things the AS will do, as soon as Egwene learns how the Trollocs invaded Caemlyn (and won't she be pleased Rand has not forewarned the WT nor Rebel AS about the WG the way he did others...)

That leaves the Asha'man, and for them it's fairly obvious their families held as hostages by Taim will be used soon.. if Androl's rescue of the families, perhaps Logain etc. doesn't take place pretty much on the Merrilor timeline.

There's a bit of a plot hole Brandon created. Perrin was supposed to go investigate the BT in TAR the night before he left for Merrilor. If he did he forcibly found out about the Dreamspike and yet he just spent hours with Rand and has not brought this up. A little convenient this will seemingly wait for the BT topic to be brought up - not that it matter plotwise as Rand already has figured out Taim must have a Dreamspike. He didn't say so, but he implied as much when he sent Naeff there.

MountainDancer
11-13-2012, 12:36 AM
The double-bond (discovered by Androl & Pevara) will be used by Rand to seal the Bore. However this would require that the two women linked to Rand with Callandor be Avi & Eylane.

They have each bonded him, so now he needs to bond them back.

Then ... "He shall hold a blade of light in his hands and the three shall be one"

See, the double-bond allows them to truly be "one"

Many think that the new cover art excludes Eylane from being one of the two, but since when has the cover art ever accurately shown a scene!

GonzoTheGreat
11-13-2012, 04:16 AM
Many think that the new cover art excludes Eylane from being one of the two, but since when has the cover art ever accurately shown a scene!
That change happened when Sweet died and the cover art had to be made by someone else. That replacement hadn't been informed of the "must not be based on the books" rule.

Zombie Sammael
11-13-2012, 06:46 AM
That change happened when Sweet died and the cover art had to be made by someone else. That replacement hadn't been informed of the "must not be based on the books" rule.

Gonzo, whatever happened to cover of the week? We hadn't even discussed the French covers yet, let alone the Japanese. :(

GonzoTheGreat
11-13-2012, 07:10 AM
Gonzo, whatever happened to cover of the week? We hadn't even discussed the French covers yet, let alone the Japanese. :(
Japanese covers?
Cadsuane posing as a schoolgirl?

Perhaps you should restart the series. It didn't run fast enough when I was pushing it, I seem to recall.

suttree
11-13-2012, 01:06 PM
Many think that the new cover art excludes Eylane from being one of the two, but since when has the cover art ever accurately shown a scene!

Sinca a new artist took over and it's been confirmed who they are...

Interview: May, 2012
A Memory of Light Cover Art Round-Up (Verbatim)
MRJackson@218 (7 May 2012)
Not sure why there's still confusion. It's Nynaeve and Moiraine on the back cover. The yellow and blue dresses should make that apparent. Nynaeve's hair is obviously shorter than it used to be.


Actually if you look back to ToM it was spot on for who was involved with the ToG as well.

Tollingtoy
11-13-2012, 09:32 PM
Actually if you look back to ToM it was spot on for who was involved with the ToG as well.


After the outcry at the first abortion of a cover

Weiramon
11-15-2012, 03:50 PM
Since it's a soul thing, my hunch is the one on whom the process might fail is Pevara and anyone who's been bonded by/has bonded another channeler.

No one knows she's bonded to Androl, and if no Asha'man bonded to an AS has been captured, the Shadow might have no clue why it doesn't work on Pevera, buying her a few days in a dark cell rather than death, as Taim contacts Moridin about the whole thing.

But it may not with Pevara a problem is discovered.



Burn my eyes, that's right. Those stories about that Mezar Kurin fellow acting strangely are simply more grousings from those who can't accept that Lord Taim is as loyal to the Lord Dragon as any.

Dom
11-15-2012, 04:51 PM
Burn my eyes, that's right. Those stories about that Mezar Kurin fellow acting strangely are simply more grousings from those who can't accept that Lord Taim is as loyal to the Lord Dragon as any.

Yeah, I forgot Mezar was one who bonded a woman. That puts the bond preventing the turning hypothesis to rest.

For the rest, Adrielle might have been captured and turned at the same time as Mezar, or killed.

It's hard to see how an AS could possibly have sensed nothing of her warder being turned to the Shadow. Even on the other end of the world, she should have had some sense of his panic, his horror, the fact he was in great danger etc.

Of course we don't know in which circumstances Mezar got himself captured - Logain may not even be aware one of his men was. It's also possible Adrielle is with Logain, did sense something very wrong happened to Mezar, and Logain is forewarned.

What we do know is there should be about 3 scenes from that story line left. Brandon said he had about five left for the beginning of AMOL.

Oneirist
11-15-2012, 08:02 PM
I'm pretty sure Evin mentioned Jenare being with Kajima, but that they didn't know her well enough to be able to tell whether she was different, too.