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greatwolf
10-27-2012, 04:39 PM
This:

Do you want to know the thing that twists my brain in knots, Perrin? Rand said softly. The thing that gives me shivers, like the cold breath of the Shadow itself? The taint is what made me mad and what gave me memories from my past life. They came as Lews Therin whispering to me. But that very insanity is the thing giving me the clues I need to win. Dont you see? If I win this, it will be the taint itself that led to the Dark Ones fall

How come? how did he arrive at that?

Rand smiled, and a thought fluttered at the edge of his mind. I am mad, Perrin. My madness is these memories, these impulses. Lews Therin tried to take over. I was two people, fighting over control of myself. And one of them was completely insane.

If Rand accepts he is LTT why did he say LTT tried to take over? Do memories "try to take over"? Madness is enough excuse, why attempt to just anything?

Its something directly contradicted by this:

Im going to be a father, he thought, not for the first time. Yes, Lews Therin had had children, and Rand could remember them and his love for them. It wasnt the same.

Why isn't it the same? Why not grieve for the children he lost? Is it because it is someone else's memories?

I thought this was dead and buried but sadly...

Maybe this passage will help dissuade minds and show how far back RJ had this down.

He knew it would be him that Aginor followed. He had seen the certainty in the Forsaken's hollow eyes, in that last second before terror whipped his feet to run.

Suddenly he felt something, saw it, though he knew it was not there to see. A glowing rope ran off from Aginor, behind him, white like sunlight seen through the purest cloud, heavier than a blacksmith's arm, lighter than air, connecting the Forsaken to something distant beyond knowing, something within the touch of Rand's hand. The rope pulsed, and with every throb Aginor grew stronger, more fully fleshed, a man as tall and strong as himself, a man harder than the Warder, more deadly than the Blight. Yet beside that shining cord, the Forsaken seemed almost not to exist. The cord was all. It hummed. It sang. It called Rand's soul. One bright finger-strand lifted away, drifted, touched him, and he gasped. Light filled him, and heat that should have burned yet only warmed as if it took the chill of the grave from his bones. The strand thickened. I have to get away!
"No!" Aginor shouted. "You shall not have it! It is mine!"
Rand did not move, and neither did the Forsaken, yet they fought as surely as if they grappled in the dust. Sweat beaded on Aginor's face, no longer withered, no longer old, that of a strong man in his prime. Rand pulsed with the beating in the cord, like the heartbeat of the world. It filled his being. Light filled his mind, till only a corner was left for what was himself. He wrapped the void around that nook; sheltered in emptiness. Away!"Mine!" Aginor cried. "Mine!"
Warmth built in Rand, the warmth of the sun, the radiance of the sun, bursting, the awful radiance of light, of the Light. Away!
"Mine!" Flame shot from Aginor's mouth, broke through his eyes like spears of fire, and he screamed.
Away!
And Rand was no longer on the hilltop. He quivered with the Light that suffused him. His mind would not work; light and heat blinded it. The Light. In the midst of the void, the Light blinded his mind, stunned him with awe.
He stood in a broad mountain pass, surrounded by jagged black peaks like the teeth of the Dark One. It was real; he was there. He felt the rocks under his boots, the icy breeze on his face.
Battle surrounded him, or the tail end of battle.

There are several things in this passage.

First the OP struggle with Aginor. It shouldn't have been possible at all if Rand was LTT born anew. He would be severely limited in how much he could draw. Unlike the forsaken who are apparently full strength after transmigration and Aginor at least, was still in his aol body.

Secondly very few were stronger than Aginor in the aol - only LT and Ishamael that we know of. To make Aginor overdraw like this means he was as strong here as LTT was in the aol. An impossibility for Rand.

Third, the manner of Travelling. Exactly the same way LTT did it in the prologue. He's the only one to have ever done this in the series, and we know he has a talent for Travelling.

Four, how did Aginor know he was LTT? You can't identify a man by the memories in his head can you?

And that voice thing...

The wind died. The screams died. The earth was still. Dust and smoke swirled back down the pass to surround him.
"The Light blind you, Ba'alzamon! This has to end!"
IT IS NOT HERE.
It was not Rand's thought, making his skull vibrate.
I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.
"Where?" He did not want to say it, but he could not stop himself. "Where?"
The haze surrounding him parted, leaving a dome of clear, clean air ten spans high, walled by billowing smoke and dust. Steps rose before him, each standing alone and unsupported, stretching up into the murk that obscured the sun.
NOT HERE.

Note that the voice only answered Rand after he stopped channeling at the trolloc army. And the gateway made is like a normal skimming device with stairs.

All of these things can best be explained by one fact - A real LTT. Not a taint manifestation. Mat also thought he gained his memories from the finns but we know he had them way back in EotW. It isn't a new error. But its most certainly wrong.

jana
10-27-2012, 04:44 PM
I just don't take it as canon

GonzoTheGreat
10-28-2012, 04:58 AM
If Rand accepts he is LTT why did he say LTT tried to take over? Do memories "try to take over"? Madness is enough excuse, why attempt to just anything?

Why isn't it the same? Why not grieve for the children he lost? Is it because it is someone else's memories?
Because it is not "just memories". It is a full personality, somewhat different to the Rand personality.

It's basically a variation on the ancient nature/nurture debate. In this case, consider identical twins: they start out with the same genetic properties, virtually the same natural environment and to a very large extend also the same upbringing. Yet, when they are mature, they have two distinct (though not necessarily easily told apart by outsiders) personalities. The children of the one won't be the children of the other, even though they started out from the same basis originally.

With Rand and LTT, the basis is not genetic, but they started out growing their personalities based upon the same soul.

First the OP struggle with Aginor. It shouldn't have been possible at all if Rand was LTT born anew. He would be severely limited in how much he could draw. Unlike the forsaken who are apparently full strength after transmigration and Aginor at least, was still in his aol body.

Secondly very few were stronger than Aginor in the aol - only LT and Ishamael that we know of. To make Aginor overdraw like this means he was as strong here as LTT was in the aol. An impossibility for Rand.
That is indeed a fairly big problem. The best explanation (a somewhat contrived one, admittedly) is that the EotW was designed to fit the Dragon better than anyone else, so that Rand had an advantage when it came to working with it.

Four, how did Aginor know he was LTT? You can't identify a man by the memories in his head can you?
Maybe, maybe not. Rand managed it with Cyndane, but she was a woman, not a man, so that may be different. Still, I think that you might need a bit more than a mere assertion to make your case.

Note that the voice only answered Rand after he stopped channeling at the trolloc army. And the gateway made is like a normal skimming device with stairs.
Which could be because the DO wanted to teach Rand how to use Skimming. He hadn't counted on Rand failing to catch on to that, perhaps.

Mat also thought he gained his memories from the finns but we know he had them way back in EotW.
Mat seemed to have different memories then, and far less pronounced. Those memories were then strengthened (and garbled a bit, probably) by the dagger's influence. That is why he was capable of understanding the *finns when he first met them, starting out from Tear.

Tedman
10-28-2012, 04:09 PM
I think Mat is actually the soul of a potential HotH from Manetheran's time and other times possibly, and is perhaps a descendant of that person or some nobility, in a way that would make the Andor lines from Ishara seem like a joke.

Egwene not as strong but close, and when you're a soul like that there is clearly some seepage between your current self and your soul.

There has to be some reason souls like Birgette do what they do without having the insanity of Rand\LTT this time around.

I often wonder if this book will finally settle for me what I always thought since I read the BWB whenever it first came out that there HAD to be channelers who could accomplish what Semi, Damandred and LTT could do stopping a gateway (edit: Gateway closing) except they just didn't have the strength to do it, aka Androl.

Personally I think that is the only thing that truly sets Rand apart as a channeler, is he is merely strong as all the strongest but gifted in "dextrous" aspects in a way that isn't possible.

Davian93
10-28-2012, 06:58 PM
Mat also thought he gained his memories from the finns but we know he had them way back in EotW.

http://i.qkme.me/3ozhvd.jpg

Cortar
10-28-2012, 11:29 PM
http://i.qkme.me/3ozhvd.jpg

I thought he was referring to Rand and his memories.

greatwolf
11-01-2012, 05:32 PM
I just don't take it as canon

Certainly not in all things but this is one theme that has been remarkably consistent. And RJ did say some things about the ending were settled at the very beginning.

There's so much about that passage that screams LTT to me. There may be hints elsewhere, but in the conclusion of EotW we see him come out. Moiraine hits on it when she remarks on the power levels in the eye. If it was enough to born out Aginor then it should have burnt out Rand. Except if LTT was not just present here, but is also a lot more than just a memory (or memories) in Rand's head.

The way and manner Rand channeled were also pointers, achieving feats that have not been repeated since and unable to see any flows or understand any of what he was doing. Egwene was already in training at this time and could handle very little of the OP. And Rand was still growing months after this event. There's only one reasonable explanation IMO.

greatwolf
11-01-2012, 05:40 PM
I should apologize I've been unable to reply for a while. Had to do some debugging here.

Because it is not "just memories". It is a full personality, somewhat different to the Rand personality.

It's basically a variation on the ancient nature/nurture debate.


That won't work. Memories can't save you from overdraw or enable to channel beyond your potential. The only mechanism that works is a separate being at full strength. One who is at the least stronger than Aginor or better still much stronger than Aginor and more skilled.

How do you want to explain Rand wrestling with Aginor for the OP? He doesn't even know how to seize, let alone hold saidin!

GonzoTheGreat
11-02-2012, 04:34 AM
Aginor was using a lot (probably most) of what he drew to restore his health, while Rand was using all that he drew to fight (he did not know what he was doing, but he could do a lot instinctively). So it is quite possible that Aginor was drawing five times as much as Rand, and could only handle four times as much.

greatwolf
11-02-2012, 06:53 AM
Aginor was using a lot (probably most) of what he drew to restore his health, while Rand was using all that he drew to fight (he did not know what he was doing, but he could do a lot instinctively). So it is quite possible that Aginor was drawing five times as much as Rand, and could only handle four times as much.

That's about the weakest argument of all. If Rand could do all that instinctively who needs memories? or even training? And Gonzo you know very well you can't heal yourself and thats what restoring yourself means. Aginor couldn't have actively restored himself.

GonzoTheGreat
11-02-2012, 07:27 AM
Maybe not, but then: who was doing it?

There has to be some way. I'll go back and find a way around. Go back and —When he turned, Aginor was there, just reaching the crest. The Forsaken topped the hill without any difficulty, walking up the steep slope as if it were level ground. Deep-sunken eyes burned at him from that drawn parchment face; somehow, it seemed less withered than before, more fleshed, as if Aginor had fed well on something. Those eyes were fixed on him, yet when Aginor spoke, it was almost to himself.
...
Rand did not move, and neither did the Forsaken, yet they fought as surely as if they grappled in the dust. Sweat beaded on Aginor's face, no longer withered, no longer old, that of a strong man in his prime. Rand pulsed with the beating in the cord, like the heartbeat of the world. It filled his being. Light filled his mind, till only a corner was left for what was himself. He wrapped the void around that nook; sheltered in emptiness. Away!"Mine!" Aginor cried. "Mine!"
Bolding mine. Mine!

If this was not a case of Aginor's drawing on the EOTW undoing the ravages of time, then who or what was restoring his health here?
I somehow doubt that LTT would bother providing this specific service for his enemy right in the middle of a fight to the death.

And Gonzo you know very well you can't heal yourself and thats what restoring yourself means.
Yes, I know. The AS have told us so. Just as they've told us that healing stilling couldn't be done. And as they have told us that undoing the Taint couldn't be done. And as they've told us that rediscovering how to make ter'angreal couldn't be done. And ...

It may very well be true that just using Healing on yourself can not be made to work. But that doesn't mean that there can't be special situations in which something like that could be managed anyway.
In this case, my hypothesis is that the EOTW had some peculiar characteristics apart from just being a big well. That doesn't seem a far fetched idea, does it?

frenchie
11-02-2012, 07:47 AM
Take this for what you will:

Interview: Dec 19th, 2005
Robert Jordan's Blog: THIS AND THAT (Verbatim)
Robert Jordan
For David, Warders don't slow. They age at a natural pace, but they do maintain vitality and vigor beyond the levels associated with most ordinary men. That said, I recently saw a photograph of a man in his seventies who had an absolutely ripped six-pack. In fact, from the neck down, if you were told you were looking at somebody in his 20s or 30s, you'd just think he was in incredible shape. And he wasn't bonded to anyone. Also, Aes Sedai can release a Warder from the bond. In fact, I have said that most Aes Sedai who have time to realize that they are dying will release any Warders they have in order to spare them the effects. I'm pretty certain I have said that publicly, by the way.

As an aside, I saw somewhere that I supposedly said that Sharina Melloy will not grow younger. If I did, then I misspoke. Sharina will not grow young, but she will grow younger in appearance, as will any other older women who begin to channel. For Sharina, by way of example, she will "regress" into apparent middle age, but no younger.

Surmiser
11-02-2012, 09:19 AM
In this case, my hypothesis is that the EOTW had some peculiar characteristics apart from just being a big well. That doesn't seem a far fetched idea, does it?



That’s it!
I think I figured out how Tarmon Gaidon could be won by the forces of Light.
Assuming the restorative power of the Eye of the World being powered by Saidin
the “eager” saidin between Illian and Ebou Dar. Rand will be constantly healed
and the land will also be healed because he is one with the land.

Saidar gateways need to link the North location of EotW and the South location of the eager Saidin in the south and make them as one.

West must be as one as South.
Falme must be linked with the south location.
Why? So that the battle can be broadcast over the continent via super HD tech only available from the sky tech over there.

East must be as one with the North
The EotW location must be linked to Rhuidean
Why? So that the battle can be recorded for posterity for future generations using the super DVD recorder aka glass-columns aiel history channel terangreal.

Awesome thanks GonzoTheGreat

greatwolf
11-02-2012, 02:08 PM
Gonzo knows frenchie, but he tends to forget at times like these:)

Surmiser
11-02-2012, 07:24 PM
i always wondered why ishamael did not look as old as Aginor in the book EotW. Assuming that the Eye has restorative powers, perhaps it is not too big a leap to consider that Ishamael might have been tapping into the Eye and rejuvenating himself? maybe every thousand yrs?

Or maybe the ancient Nakomi actually channels saidin (kinda like Arangar) and was able to rejuvenate previously from the Eye?

Zombie Sammael
11-03-2012, 07:32 AM
i always wondered why ishamael did not look as old as Aginor in the book EotW. Assuming that the Eye has restorative powers, perhaps it is not too big a leap to consider that Ishamael might have been tapping into the Eye and rejuvenating himself? maybe every thousand yrs?

Or maybe the ancient Nakomi actually channels saidin (kinda like Arangar) and was able to rejuvenate previously from the Eye?

Ishamael didn't look old because of the restorative (and other) properties of the True Power, which he'd been channelling almost constantly for nearly 4000 years. Aginor and Balthamel had not had that opportunity, as they were properly sealed if close to the surface during that time, and therefore couldn't channel (or do anything else except age slowly). Here's the full interview quote, since it's all relevant:


ROBERT JORDAN
I asked him about Aginor getting younger at the end of The Eye of the World, and he said 'no, he doesn't get younger, he dies'. So I actually looked up the reference and read it to him. He said 'oh, that,' and then went on to explain that it is actually the True Power, not the saidin from the Eye, that rejuvenates him. He did describe the saidin in the Eye as a 'mother-lode', however, I didn't think to ask him what he meant by that until I was in the car going home. I instead asked him whether the True Power was the source of the Forsaken's immortality. He said: yes.
(LATER)

MARK ERIKSON
Initially I asked 'In the end of Eye of the World, when Rand is fighting Aginor, why did Aginor get younger?'
ROBERT JORDAN
RJ replied 'He didn't, he died there. Do you mean the resurrection? He and Balthamel got resurrected in Lord of Chaos.'
MARK ERIKSON
I said 'I know that, but....' and couldn't think of anything else. I thought I must have read that part wrong, so while other people were having their books signed, I went through the book and found the line, and read it to him.
ROBERT JORDAN
RJ said 'Oh that. That's actually the power of the Dark One rejuvenating him,' and went on to basically explain what the True Power is, like I was an idiot.
MARK ERIKSON
So then I said 'So is the True Power the source of their immortality?'
ROBERT JORDAN
And he said 'Effectively, yes.'
FOOTNOTE
Some fans picked this line of questioning up in Budapest in 2003, and RJ said that the Forsaken are not actually immortal; they have merely been promised immortality after the Day of Return. RJ probably meant that the True Power is what kept them alive all the years they were sealed in the Bore.

Surmiser
11-03-2012, 09:43 AM
stll a little confused but now much more enlightened and extremely thankful.
neat concept

my question below is about my confusion
so it's possible that rand would use the dark one's true power to heal himself and by doing that , would be healing the land?
and the fain-inflicted wound is bad because it prevents the true power wound from doing its work of healing rand?

GonzoTheGreat
11-03-2012, 09:52 AM
Probably not, as Rand already had that TP wound for a while when Fain struck, and there was no sign of healing.
I suspect that such healing could only take place if the DO allowed it, and this is one case where he would definitely not have any reason to do so.

greatwolf
11-03-2012, 11:09 AM
Forgot all about that part. If Aginor was using TP at the eye, was that what burnt him out?

GonzoTheGreat
11-03-2012, 11:20 AM
If he could use the TP, then why did he mess around with the Eye?

77jester
11-03-2012, 01:25 PM
If he could use the TP, then why did he mess around with the Eye?

for this reason:
WEEK 20 QUESTION (LORDJUSS)
Why was Aginor so interested in the Eye of the World? He could channel clean saidin anyway so it shouldn't have been an issue?
ROBERT JORDAN
He was able to channel clean saidin, true, but only through the "filter" which had been provided by the Dark One just a short time previously, which meant the Dark One would be aware of him channeling wherever he was. Remember, Aginor was the creator of the Trollocs; he is quite able to reason things out clearly, at least in a scientific sense. Also, he wasn't certain whether or not the Dark One also would know what he was doing when he channeled, too. For someone as secretive, competitive, and generally untrustworthy as the one of the Forsaken, the Eye of the World amounted to a valuable asset if it could be secured. To put it simply, Aginor saw a means of channeling without the Dark One looking over his shoulder, and maybe a way to increase his own power at the expense of those who didn't have that advantage. Balthamel might well have been for the long drop, administered by Aginor, if things hadn't worked out differently.
That being said, if Rand ended up getting half of this untainted Saidin, Why did he always feel the taint on Saidin every time he channeled? Has he not used this well yet? Or did it get all used up in his battle with Aginor/Baalzamon?

77jester
11-03-2012, 01:41 PM
http://i.qkme.me/3ozhvd.jpg

First off I love the image quote :D:D
But I fail to see why you would use it here. Why would you have issue with saying that Matt had his memories earlier in tEotW? Of the 5 Emonds fielders, he's the only one that spouted the Old tongue. He did this before being exposed to the SL dagger. And when he was finally healed of the Dagger in tDR, his first PoV was a vividly detailed memory of a battle in the Trolloc Wars. He clearly had other life memories before the Finns, they just gave him more.