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Tollingtoy
10-30-2012, 06:37 PM
If Demandred really is Roedran and is in control of Murandy, does this affect the prophecy Rand heard from the Aelfinn? If there is an enemy in the center, does that change the balance of "The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one."

Artur pendragon
10-31-2012, 03:40 AM
I personally don't think it will from randlander's point of view, throughout the whole series we hear how Murandy isn't even considered a country or power by the rest of the world. They are small and divided and not worth the trouble. even the Seanchen didn't consider it worth much other then the backdoor to Andor.

Aulis Vaara
10-31-2012, 11:19 AM
If Demandred really is Roedran and is in control of Murandy, does this affect the prophecy Rand heard from the Aelfinn? If there is an enemy in the center, does that change the balance of "The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one."

If that prophecy even means what Rand thinks it means. It might be a hint to the metaphysical construct that is needed to seal the bore, or something else entirely.

Prophecies are often not what they seem, which has been brought back to the foreground in the last few books. It's getting harder and harder to fulfil this prophecy in the traditional sense, as alliances formed don't adhere to the prophecy.

If we take south and west to be the Seanchan Empire, then what about Tear, Illian, and Arad Doman?

The east and north aren't exactly one either. The east is Tar Valon and Cairhien, but Egwene and Elayne don't exactly see eye to eye thanks to Elayne's use of the kin. It kind of looks like she's going to start her own school of channelers. And neither of them have a particularly good relationship with the borderlanders in the north either, despite their respect for Aes Sedai.

The major alliances right now are the borderlands in the north, Tar Valon kind of stands alone, Elayne and Perrin have an alliance in the middle, from center to east, Rand has two countries under him, Tear and Illian, in the south (maybe three, if you count Arad Doman). And in the southwest, you have the Seanchan, holding a rather small corner of Randland.

How can that collection give rise to "The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one." ?

GonzoTheGreat
10-31-2012, 11:54 AM
If we take south and west to be the Seanchan Empire, then what about Tear, Illian, and Arad Doman?
Rand will give those to his half-brother as a wedding present. That'll keep them in the Paendrag family.

The east and north aren't exactly one either. The east is Tar Valon and Cairhien, but Egwene and Elayne don't exactly see eye to eye thanks to Elayne's use of the kin. It kind of looks like she's going to start her own school of channelers. And neither of them have a particularly good relationship with the borderlanders in the north either, despite their respect for Aes Sedai.
Perrin will tell Egwene to stop being silly, and she'll actually do it. That will so impress the Borderlanders that they submit to his authority. Elayne will keep quiet, and end up being Empress of the whole lot two days after Rand is dead.

How can that collection give rise to "The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one." ?
I've solved that, haven't I?

Dom
10-31-2012, 06:13 PM
Merrilor, if Rand succeeds, should bring the North (Borderlands, Arad Doman, Andor-TR, Ghealdan) and East (Aiel, Tear, Illian, Cairhien, Tar Valon) together "as one" (another way to see it is the Westlands in general minus the Seanchan bits as "the north", and the Aiel as "the east".

Tuon has brought together "the West" (the Return, from the western continent) and South (their conquests: Tarabon, Amadicia, Altara).

In any case, it seems the Seanchan and the "Merrilor alliance" are "the two".

To complete the conditions, the alliance between the Seanchan lands and their Empress and Rand's Merrilor North and East allied front must come together.

If this is the correct (I think it might be, but I'm not discounting a plot twist and it turns out to be more symbolic or metaphorical) then the conditions for the Light to win the LB won't show up before this happens, and when the Seanchan and Rand (his side, anyway) ally we'll understand why it's so, but my feeling is that this is then and only then the Pattern will allow the three ta'veren to reunite as a trio (if my hunch is right it "deviated" Mat south again before he could get to Merrilor. And I suspect he'll get stuck in Altara for a while, the final alliance of the Light coming only after some pretty serious beatings by the Shadow)

GonzoTheGreat
11-01-2012, 04:11 AM
Where do the Sea Folk fit into this scheme? :p

iokepa
11-01-2012, 06:10 AM
Where do the Sea Folk fit into this scheme? :p

When the end is near, and Rand & Company have come so close to winning - the Sea Folk will stride in and bargain with the Dark One. Its the real 'secret' ending that RJ was hiding all along.

The Dark One will only want to unmake the Pattern, which the Sea Folk will allow him to do - but only in certain places...basically anything involving Faile being captured by the Shaido, Elayne/Nynaeve in the menagerie, and Matt being married...

All of this in return for him simply packing up and leaving town for good...:D

Dom
11-01-2012, 09:24 PM
Where do the Sea Folk fit into this scheme? :p


Well, they're still north-east of Seanchan for the most part, but then again one of their larger islands has also been conquered. And that one's West. :P

J/k, except I'm pretty sure "the two must be as one", refers to the South-West and North-East, ie: the Seanchan Empire (ie: the Return, lead by its legitimate ruler) and the Westlands.

It's by no mean perfect (Ghealdan, Andor, north?), but then it's the Aelfinn.

I also like for it (to an extent) the more "esoterical" interpretation I came up with years ago, that the first part of the riddle refers to Westlands territories forging alliances, but the second part refers to Rand having to bring this alliance of humanity to the north-east of the continent, ie: Shayol Ghul. The second part would be an obscure reference to the fact Rand musn't attempt this "alone" ( la LTT), that this time around the land and its people must be "one" with the Dragon if he's to succeed at the Pit.

Rand had his epiphany and has chosen the path to saving Creation, but perhaps he now has to bring the world to a similar epiphany. Considering the power the epiphany gave the Dragon, it's possible that a large part of humanity believing in Creation's continuation and in victory, and being one with the Dragon in this, could "boost" Rand's power even more, perhaps even enough to win a contest of wills against the DO over the Bore.

I get the nagging feeling lately that Nynaeve's "healing" of madness bears the seeds of the solution, that the Bore's relation to Creation may not be totally unlike how she described the Taint holding a brain.

She might remove first all the grips the DO has over Creation through the Bore - finish the process of "clearing the rubble" started by breaking the focus discs for the seals, then (if we use the healing of madness process to the end as the guide), others would have to invert the sealing weave and lay this over the residues of LTT's seals, removing them completely. Then it would be a matter of inverting the drilling process (which I suspect was a folding of tel'aran'rhiod accomplished by a team of Dreamwalkers incl. Mierin. The Horn of Valere folds TAR and the real world strangely at the point in the the Pattern where it's sounded, so there's a way to do this (could be by sounding the Horn at SG, simply enough), and I suspect, using an another mean than the Horn, it's what Beidomon and his team did: fold TAR and the RW at a specific point, then "willing" the bore open) to remove the Bore. Rand's role, aside from being the "focus" to the whole thing - would be to deal with the DO during the process, and for this he might have to go through death (literally, but perhaps also metaphorically, finish off Moridin) and thus put the fate of his own soul on the table.

There would be one part of it achieved in the RW at SG, with Callandor and SH and Moridin, and one part in TAR near the threshold to the after world, against Shai'tan, and achieved by a dead Rand with Justice, leading the Heroes of the Horn. The Horn might be sounded to prevent Shai'tan from seizing dead Rand's soul, or more dramatically to force Shai'tan to release it: that could turn out to be the true meaning of the inscription "Death is no bar to my call" that Aes Sedai etched on the Horn (RJ, or Maria - I can't recall - confirmed the inscription is in the Old Tongue because AS put it there. Going by the history of the Horn RJ gave us: it was a museum artefact, its power believed purely legendary, until Foretelling about it appeared, but by that time it had already been lost in the War of Shadow. Funny that one of precious museum artefact ended up in the lair of the woman the BWB told us made a speciality of destroying museums and libraries. She or her mobs of "Children" may have been responsible for the original loss of the Horn in the first place...)

In any case I find it interesting the prophecies speak of Rand facing the DO, but not of him sealing or removing the Bore.