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Cabadrin
11-23-2012, 05:11 AM
In the AMOL prologue, BS practically begs us to reconsider one of his favourite characters, Slayer. The only one to take any notice, so far as I have found, is Gonzo in his Nitpicks thread:
Isam has a conscience. Interesting, that.
Would it have any significance, though?

What must BS make Slayer do, to get a real reaction? Juggling?

The Established Consensus about Slayer seems to be:

For some unknown reason Gitara Sedai sent Luc into the Blight.
For some unknown reason (some whispered seeking fame) Luc agreed to go.
In the Blight, Luc met Isam.
Somehow, the two were joined in a double body, Slayer.
For some unknown reason, Slayer went to work for the DO.
Slayer has served the DO faithfully ever since.
Then there is a handful of loose threads, but no one cares about those.

Against which I would suggest:

Following a Foretelling, Gitara Sedai sent Luc on a quest to find Isam (LOC ch16 p7/15).
Luc and Isam met in the Blight.
Seeking to learn more about what the Pattern needed from them, they went to the Finns, who gave them three cryptic answers and granted them three whishes:
- Immunity from any oath the DO might require
- Whatever else they most needed for their joint quest
- Safe return to their own world
Beware what you wish for. The Finns will have savoured the emotions when Luc and Isam realized how the Finns had fulfilled their wish.

Slayer offered his services to the DO, using the cover persona we meet in the Far Madding POV: Don't care who I kill so long as there's variety (not a quote). (WH ch 22 p18/19)
Serving well, killing many, Slayer rose to become the DO:s special gofer and killer. The DO gave him powers to increase his usefulness.

Slayer's quest

Slayer is where the Pattern needs him to be: working for the DO, with powers given him, in position to play his vital role in the Last Battle. And Luc volunteered, Gitara could not have forced him. Has any other character in fiction made a sacrifice like this?

For now he is biding his time, maintaining his cover and sabotaging the Shadow's effort when he is confident he can get away with it. And, in his spare time, harvesting wolf souls to build his own Darkhound army for Tarmon Gai'don.

I speculated in the Defeat of Moridin thread that Slayer's Darkhounds may help against Moridin, but Slayer himself has no known powers that would be useful here. He may use his unique ability to Travel into the Town or some other Stedding to free Lan and the Malkieri held captive with him - Yellowbeard came up with this to make sense of Lan's mad dash. Lan fighting alongside Isam would be a nice touch, and they could wreck havoc on the Shadow central command in a location where proud channelers would have to fall back on whatever swordsmanship they have bothered to learn - the Samma N'sei use only knives, apparently.
Samma N'sei have turned Aiel tradition upside down, lowering the veil to fight; make one of them gai'shain and a ferocious fighter, and channeler, will probably be yours for a year and a day.

At some point I hope Slayer will have the opportunity to kill Shaidar Haran, the closest anyone of the Pattern can come to kill the DO. He has earned that right.

Two Rivers

Cyndane and Isam confirms (AMOL prologue) that Padan Fain's plan to draw Rand to the Two Rivers was known to the Shadow, although a small force to kill Fain, escalated when Perrin unexpectedly showed up (Isam: TSR ch42 p5/18) seems closer to what we know happened. We do not know the timing, possibly Slayer was sent after the Gray Men failed to kill Fain, with Trollocs to deal with Fain's Whitecloak guards. The Trollocs may also have been sent to harrass Two Rivers on the remote chance this would attract or at least distract Rand, or just to comply with Fain's request for assistance to keep him unsuspecting. Perrins's arrival changed everything, killing him had been a priority since the Darkfriend social (TGH prologue).

Luc started teaching the villagers how to defend themselves, to have Trollocs killed and to protect bystanders - this is his beloved Andor, even if the villagers didn't know it - but then he was shocked to met Verin (TSR ch 33 p2/23) so he had to backtrack. He couldn't just leave, Verin might mention Lord Luc and his timely advice in her next rapport, he had to play the dilettante Hunter, full of unhelpful help, to make Verin discount the early praise as naive. Necessary, but it must have rankled to see the villagers turn to Perrin. Then Perrin raised the Manetheren banner, no wonder Luc hates him deeply (Isam, TOM ch 37 p6/20).

Having Isam lead Perrin to the Tower of Ghenjei the first time we meet him is below RJ:s usual standards for a clue, but he got away with it (TSR,Ch28 p8/12).

Isam appears confused about what had happened (AMOL prologue), he may not have understod Luc's actions. We know that the passive person can see and hear what the active person is doing, and sense emotions, but we do not know if Luc and Isam share thoughts and memories. And he may have faced contradictory orders at the time, Ishamael was killed just a few days before the Whitecloaks arrived in Two Rivers.

Far Madding

In Far Madding (WH ch 22 p18/19) we see Slayer on his day job, letting himself be used in Forsaken schemes while keeping the Boss informed. Cyndane talks about failures to kill Rand (AMOL prologue), presumably on Forsaken orders stopped by Ishamael/Moridin when Slayer reported in. Here, his patron is probably Moridin himself, testing his theory that Rand is so strong a Ta'veren he is practically invulnerable. Moridin is masked to test Slayer's loyalty, too, a test Luc passes because he, too, is confident Rand is invulnerable. Note Moridin's ham acting. Luc is good, though, his cover persona, honed during nearly thirty hard years to the point of schizofrenia, is designed to be laconic: I kill, why would I care who dies (not a quote).

No wonder if Luc, on some level, really did want to kill Rand, after all he had gone through for Rand´s sake. Min, too, Luc had his miserable life while Rand could live cosily with this lovely young woman.

The Darkhound Tracks

Rand wounded Padan Fain (WH ch32 p13/14) the day before Perrin found the Darkhound tracks (COT ch6 p4/15), suggesting Fain fled through the Far Madding Waygate, then left the Ways at the next gate. He was in no shape to deal with Perrin, so it may have been sensing Masema that drew him to the camp - Masema had been one of the soldiers guarding the knife and the Horn in Cairhien, he could be a Shadar Logoth carrier, certainly Masema's followers resemble Fain's Whitecloaks - then circled the camp to find a way to contact Masema while staying safely away from Perrin.

Slayer, patrolling the Waygates, saw that the tell-tale object he would have placed at the gate had been moved and released his Hounds. When the Hounds reached the camp, half followed Fain, the other half circled the camp the other way. When they met, they had Fain trapped.

Obviously, Slayer did not kill Fain and let the Hounds feast. Instead the two men reached an accommodation:

Slayer had the knowledge Fain needed to make Terez' theory Fain : Shadowspawn thief solid. Studying his prey, he had realized how Fain could help him have enough Trollocs killed to reduce the force available for the planned attack on Caemlyn: Sheriam had helpt heal Mat, Alviarin had seen Fain steal the knife and Verin knew about Fain and Machin Shin, a little tidbit she had no reason to withhold from her supposed masters.
Rand resting in Algarin's manor provided the perfect opportunity. Slayer did not worry about Rand; either because he knew how hard it would be to kill this stong Ta'veren or because Gitara's Foretelling or the Finn's answers made him confident Rand would live to play his role in Tarmon Gai'don. Just to play safe, he launched the attack without waiting for the mansion to close down for the night (KOD ch19 p10/18).

Juggling

The man juggling with fire in Min's viewing of Thom (TEOTW ch15 p10/23) could be Luc. Thom's reaction when Moirane connected him with the death of Taringail (TSR ch17 p5/22) seems excessive for this experienced player, why would it matter after all these years? He was already under a death sentence for leaving the court to help Owen, yet he didn't even bother to use an assumed name. But it is not much of a stretch to assume Thom knew Luc, that Luc's unpleasant brother-in-law Taringail was a darkfriend, and that Luc, once he was trusted with access to the Shadow archives, found out and killed him.

Thom knows.

Sarevok
11-23-2012, 08:40 AM
Wow, nice read. I have to admit I never really considered the idea of Slayer being a double agent, but you have a point when saying there's no real reason for either of them to turn to the shadow (one was on his way to being one of the mightiest persons in Randland and the other's entire family was killed by the shadow)...

I think it's unlikely it'll turn out this way, but I love the idea. :D

Zombie Sammael
11-23-2012, 09:01 AM
I have to say, I very much like your thinking on this one. The leap you've taken seems to be the idea that Slayer might not be working for the Shadow, when all his POVs and actions seem to indicate he definitely is. Is it possible one side of his personality might be while the other is not? Slayer is one of my favourite characters and one of the biggest mysteries in the series, certainly not as fully developed as I'd like. You provide potential answers to his link to the Finns - was there something more to his attempt to trick Perrin into the TOG? - and how it is that two souls could be merged into one.

One thing to consider is that Slayer is a relatively strong Mordred parallel. He lacks a naming parallel, but wouldn't be the only Shadow-sider to so lack; "Ishmael" always struck me as an odd choice for the Dark One's first lieutenant. His familial relationship with Rand (uncle to nephew) is the inverse of Mordred's to Arthur (nephew to uncle), and the mission he's currently on is to kill Rand. Supporting your theory, could that inversion possible be foreshadow of another, that rather than betray Rand as Mordred did, he might betray the Shadow for Rand?

Dom
11-23-2012, 09:15 AM
You have the Eelfinn able to perform transmigration of a soul into another body like Shai'tan? That's not too likely, I'd say. That pushes their powers to the godly level.

I think I prefer this version of the story:

- Luc is a Hero of the Horn.
- Isam was sent by someone (Ishamael? a Red Veil "chief"?) to this "Aiel" town in the Blight to be raised in the Shadow, because a Malkieri lord like him might be useful (RJ said as much, he RAFOed by whom/where Isam had been raised but told us the rest).
- It raises the question whether the Red Veils have been secretely involved (as Dreadlords, leading the Shadowspawn) in the Fall of Malkier.

- A foretelling of Gitara Moroso sent Luc to the Blight. It's nothing to do with Isam, it's a mirror to his sister being sent to Aiel. She was sent to become a Maiden, he was sent to the Red Veils.
- Luc was captured by Red Veils, and having channeler genetics, he was turned to the Shadow at the Town.
- Shai'tan created a special bond to Isam and Luc. Luc was killed and his soul seized, translated into Isam's body (two souls in one body - some kind of merging occurs, based on Mordeth-Fain and a comment by Vandene, perhaps not worth much, that Mordeth awaited in SL to "seize a soul"). The soul of dead Luc is bound to the Wheel and to TAR. The ability to make "holes" with the TP to and from TAR is a gift from the DO. The ability to change appearance at will (or subconsciously, whichever soul/personality happen to dominate Slayer's thoughts) as he enters or exits TAR comes from Luc being a dead Hero.
- Slayer never adopts Luc appearance in TAR because the other Heroes would recognize him and destroy him.
- The original purpose of Slayer for Shai'tan? An experiment to deal with the Dragon soul, and find a way to control it.
- The apparent success of the Slayer experiment - the Wheel appears not to have control over its "corrective mechanism" when that soul isn't incarnated, and this lead to Shai'tan ordering Ishamael to try his damnedest to turn Rand to the Shadow, to bless Lanfear's attempt to achieve the same. Failing to lure him of his own free will, plan B was to capture him and turn him forcibly (it's the plan Semirhage was ordered to risk a lot to implement in the late game. The Shadospawn attack on the manor was an attempt to decimate his inner circle before Semirhage's attempt. Moridin lied about it, pretended he suspected one of the Chosen, to put them all on their guard and best behavior so none would dare try something if they got wind of Semirhage's moves...).
- Luring Rand to the Shadow isn't enough. Ta'veren have much more limited free will than normal people. A Darkfriend Dragon would still be controlled by the Wheel... to fail Shai'tan.
- Shai'tan prefers to get Rand alive, because he can control the timing, manner and location of his death and optimize his chances to seize his soul. Beside, it's important the soul embraces the Shadow before dying.
- Shai'tan ordered Ishamael to wound Rand with the True Power. This created an anchor of a sort.
- Shai'tan surprised Moridin in Shadar Logoth by seizing an opportunity, and seizing control of the True Power, Shai'tan had it piggy-back on Rand's balefire stream and connect to the anchor in Rand's body. Rand is now bound to Shai'tan through Moridin's soul.
- All that's needed to make Moridin and Rand a new Slayer is for Rand not to die in circumstances in which Shai'tan wouldn't be able to seize his soul. Ideally, Rand would still be turned to the Shadow first (thus Semirhage's orders so late in the game), as otherwise his soul and Moridin's will struggle for control).

Endgame musings:

- Rand must shed his blood on the stones of SG to remove the anchor and dissolve the bond to Moridin. The purpose of Fain's wound is to come in contact with the TP one and destroy it.

- Shai'tan might about to gain a bit of control/influence over Rand because of his use of the True Power. This is suggested by the Dark Prophecy suggesting the DO's ability to interact in the Pattern will increase through his gaining some direct control over those tied to him (Darkfriends, Forsaken etc.) . I guess we might expect more True Power "oddities" in the vein of what happened to Moridin (Shai'tan doing what he wants with the TP used by a Chosen/Dreadlord, changing their weaves or their effects against their will/control), and DF suddenly pulled forcefully to do things against their will (suicide attacks, etc.). It's a limited mirror to ta'veren, and a way for Shai'tan to counter it. It's unlikely to reach the level of control Shai'tan has over Shaidar Haran, but it's a bit the same principle.

- Slayer's role and the reason why there's a Foretelling involved: The Grave (Shai'tan) is No Bar to My Call. The sounding of the Horn of Valere will rip apart Slayer, freeing Luc's soul to be called with the Heroes. Wait, why hasn't this happened in Falme exactly? Because Slayer was in the living world. When it is sounded again, Slayer will be in TAR about to do something... momentous (idea: the DO's control over his servants has increased as prophecies imply. Slayer might be Shai'tan's last vessel to act in TAR against Rand or Perrin, after he lost Moridin, Cyndane and Moghedien.

- What happens to the dead wolves killed again in TAR is important/relevant. Those souls fall in Shai'tan's direct control. This is why the DH are "special" (and changed). As soon as Shai'tan's power grew from enough seals having broken, he gained direct control of DH. The Legend of Old Grim leading packs is real: Shai'tan literally sees through their eyes and and they run at his will, and if they die, he "reforms" them. Only balefire kills them, because then Shai'tan loses control of the soul... Relevant how? Because it's what would happen to Rand if he died in the real world then was killed by ? (Slayer, SH?) in TAR: he would be Shai'tan's champion, his complete puppet, and nothing short of balefire or the Horn of Valere could free his soul.

- Expect a Darkhound recognizable by Perrin as Hopper to show up before the end...

GonzoTheGreat
11-23-2012, 09:48 AM
What if the "his blood" that Rand must shed is not quite his own bodily fluid, but instead that of his uncle? :p

Tollingtoy
11-23-2012, 10:21 AM
Perhaps Luc and Isam were joined together in some way with the TP that mirrors how Moridin and Rand seem to be merging before VOG?

Cabadrin
11-24-2012, 05:33 AM
The central character to consider here is Gitara. In Caemlyn, the disappearences of both Luc and Tigraine were followed by whispers that Gitara was involved. Those servants; the upper class never pay attention to servants. We know more about Tigraine:
Amys, TSR ch34 p15/20:
An Aes Sedai called Gitara Moroso, who had the Foretelling, had told her that disaster would befall her land and her people, perhaps the world, unless she went to dwell among the Maidens of the Spear, telling no one of her going.

Which is practically confirmation that Gitara acted on a Foretelling. And of course we know the result: Rand, the Dragon Reborn, born on Dragonmount.

Luc has not told his side of the story to anyone, except possibly Thom, and the result is, and should be, in the future. All we can do for now is to look for cracks in his cover. Or wait for Jan 8, but that is cheating.

Remember, this is not a FBI game where the undercover agent must not do any real harm to innocent bystanders. This is an all-out struggle to save the world from eternal darkness. Luc has sacrificed his life for the cause, and he does not hesitate to sacrifice others. What would a british undercover agent in the SS do? Whatever his commanding officer in the SS told him to, most of the time.

There is a RAFO on Slayer and the Tower of Ghenjei, confirmation that there is a connection between Slayer and the Finns. And we know the trouble the DO went to, trying to make Padan Fain both obedient and independent. And failed. I'd say it is beyond the DO:s capacity to create Slayer. And yet he exists, someone or something created him.

@Zombie Sammael: You believe Slayer is all black, and yet he is one of your favourite characters? There is a bit of harlequin in Isam dealing with Perrin. Dangerous and amused. And white-and-black.

@Dom: Luc was in TAR in Far Madding. Isam was in TAR in Two Rivers because Luc was in the waking world; fair is fair. Then Isam fought Perrin in the Dreamspike episode. Egwene has seen both in TAR.

Hopper showing up is a possibility; I thought of predicting Slayer would hand over control of the Darkhounds to Perrin, but I prefer to stay within spitting distance of evidence. Mostly.

GonzoTheGreat
11-24-2012, 06:59 AM
The only reason why the DO failed with Fain is that Mordeth messed it up. I don't think that Slayer has a Mordeth soul mixed in with the two that we already know about, so that's not an issue.

Cabadrin
11-25-2012, 12:23 AM
@Gonzo:
Does Padan Fain look like a success to you, until Mordeth messed him up?
I'd say he was disintegrating, which may be why Mordeth gained such a stong grip on him.

EDIT edit replaced by new post #13 END EDIT

Dom
11-25-2012, 12:24 AM
Luc was in TAR in Far Madding.

He became Luc as he stepped out of TAR, thus he was Isam in TAR.

Nynaeve might have seen him briefly as Luc in the reflection of the Caemlyn palace - I'd have to check , but that'd be the only instance, IRRC.

Cabadrin
11-25-2012, 12:46 AM
@Dom:
Slayer was Isam in TAR, stepped into the waking world as Luc "it seemed appropriate", returned to TAR as Luc to deal with his patron, then turned into Isam to go hunting wolves.

Sid
11-25-2012, 12:53 AM
WH chapter 10 A Plan Succeeds"Halima's massages work wonders, Nynaeve. I couldn't sleep at all without her. Now, is there . . . ?" She trailed off, staring toward the doors at the entrance of the throne room, and Elayne turned to look.

A man was standing there watching, a man as tall as an Aielman, with dark red hair faintly streaked with white, but his high-collared blue coat would never be worn by an Aiel. He appeared muscular, and his hard face seemed somehow familiar. When he saw them looking, he turned and ran down the corridor out of sight.

For an instant, Elayne gaped. He had not just accidentally dreamed himself into Tel'aran'rhiod, or he would have vanished by now, but she could still hear his boots, loud on the floor tiles. Either he was a dreamwalker—rare among men, so the Wise Ones said—or he had a ter'angreal of his own.

Leaping to her feet, she ran after him, but as fast as she was, Egwene was faster. One instant Egwene was behind, the next she was standing in the doorway, peering the way the man had gone. Elayne tried thinking of herself standing beside Egwene, and she was. The corridor was silent, now, and empty except for stand-lamps and chests and tapestries, all flickering and shifting.

"How did you do that?" Nynaeve demanded, running up with her skirts hoisted above her knees. Her stockings were silk, and red! Hastily letting her skirts fall when she realized Elayne had noticed her stockings, she peered down the hallway. "Where did he go? He could have heard everything! Did you recognize him? He reminded me of someone; I don't know who."

"Rand," Egwene said. "He could have been Rand's uncle."

Of course, Elayne thought. If Rand had a mean uncle.I think that's the only time...
(Edit) Cabadrin gave another example:o

Cabadrin
11-25-2012, 02:25 AM
@Gonzo:
I apologize, I wouldn't have expressed myself like that if I had stopped to think. Recalling the miserable wretch in Baerlon, I thought "the DO went to all that effort to create THAT?"
But you may be right; a pocketful of gold and a week's R&R and Fain might have been good as new. Or not, there is just no way of telling.

My real point is, comparing what the DO did to Fain and what the Finns did to Mat, the Finns make the DO look crude.

Dom
11-25-2012, 04:40 AM
Luc has not told his side of the story to anyone, except possibly Thom

Why Thom? Why would the prince of Andor confide in the house bard of House Trakand? Thom wasn't royal bard under Luc's mother, he served Maighdin Trakand.

All we can do for now is to look for cracks in his cover.

Really not sure which "cracks" you're imagining to have seen, let alone what made you conclude it's a cover, and by Luc...

Do you really think Luc, whose soul is for all intent and purpose is successfully cohabiting with Isam's could be fooling Isam? They share thoughts...

There is a RAFO on Slayer and the Tower of Ghenjei, confirmation that there is a connection between Slayer and the Finns.

If every RAFO proved the question was relevant and the asker's speculation was right, a whole lot of things that have been debunked or turned irrelevant after being RAFOed by RJ or Brandon earlier would have been true... RJ warned us a few times.. many RAFOs simply means it's intentional we are left to wonder and the author doesn't wish us to know before the answer, true or false, is given in the books. The theories RJ debunked straight out appeared to be theories which annoyed him because we misunderstood stuff he had intended us to understand, or about stuff which RJ didn't intend to have mislead us. There a many examples, but I'll just mention how he hated the "Shai'tan makes people evil" angle, or how he got fed up with the Gaidal=Olver theory, which was probably meant to last 30 sec. as a red herring before we figured out for ourselves it wasn't possible, or how RJ at some point seemed to have become annoyed with Taimandred, likely because it meant tons of readers were no longer looking at his clues about Demandred, and tons of readers were not paying attention anymore to Taim's character development because they saw him as Demandred.

Brandon is perfectly aware Slayer has tried to trap Perrin by faking to enter Ghenjei while actually stepping out of TAR.


Brandon was extremely circumspectsin Q&A about the Finns, and it's pretty obvious there's more about them coming in AMOL (it's already proved true in the prologue, and there's more to come when Rand and Moiraine will meet. LTT has to know a whole deal about Sindhol that Moiraine and us don't know).

And even if Slayer has gone to Eelfinn or Aelfinn (which is possible... but after he's become Slayer and probably has the ability to jump in TAR from within Sindhol to escape the Finn. My hunch would be that Slayer wouldn't go there to bargain but to hunt Finns for sport...), that's no justification for the Eelfinn to have powers RJ gave to the antithesis and equal of the Creator.

And we know the trouble the DO went to, trying to make Padan Fain both obedient and independent.

What problems exactly? Fain performed just as expected until he bumped into Mordeth who possessed him.

We don't know for sure Shai'tan was even extensively involved. Some of what happened to Fain was done at the Pit of Doom, but Fain often referred to the DO as Ba'alzamon. It's pretty obvious he can't tell Ishamael and the Dark One apart.

I'd say it is beyond the DO:s capacity to create Slayer.

Huh? He's "bonded" Rand and Moridin somehow and they're merging. He's the Lord of Death and can seize souls and also place them in bodies. He can also remove souls from bodies without, seemingly, causing death. RJ also hinted that the DO's ease to seize souls increase with proximity to SG, and Luc died in the Blight...

What Slayer is, and his gifts give all the sings or being right up Shai'tan's alley, and involve powers that so far have been shown as the exclusive domain of the Lord of the Grave...

Shai'tan couldn't make Slayer, but it's within the powers of the Eelfinn? It looks like you've fallen into the trap of turning the creatures of Sindhol into Gods.

There's no hint whatsoever they can perform transmigrations. There are "patterns" to the Finns's powers.


The Finns don't "see" reality like humans do. They perceive dimensions the humans cannot perceive. For one thing they can see the aura of Spirit around humans, see their "life thread" and this perception isn't bound by Time etc. To them emotions is something substantial and "concrete" like matter. Memories/experiences too.

To them the One Power is pretty obviously "visible", and they have found a way to use it which isn't channeling. The clues are all there, the TOM episodes only made it even more obvious. Their use of the OP systematically involves symbols, shapes and materials. E.g. They make their equivalent of "Gateways" by drawing symbols using compatible materials (incl. bronze and or the alloy the Ashan'darei was made of). In their world (incl. the outside of Ghenjei itself) everyone can make these, even visitors.

Symbol/shape, material, color.. what does it remind you of? Ter'angreal, of course. Ter'angreal are made of very specific materials (and for most of them, "alien", ie: not existing naturally in the human world), and often the shape and color are important, and we know they work using matrixes "drilled"/imprinted in the material which for all intent and purpose reproduce a web. Since the "standing flows" have failed, most of them work only by being powered by a channeler with the right flow. Some (not all) using Spirit as their energy source seem to still work for non-channelers (so far they're the only ones proven to work non-channelers, eg: Egwene's ring, the Sindhol portals, Mat's medallion which as a side effect cuts him from TAR and shields his dreams), and the reason for this is most likely because Spirit happens to be the "flow" of sentient souls (the TS is the sum of all souls in Creation in the end... we know everything has a soul, everything has a thread including inanimate matter like rock, and living things like plants - all that energy is "the True Source", Creation itself is the True Source, and the essence of the Creator).

This is why channelers are able to draw/weave Spirit subconsciously in their sleep: it's their own energy from their own soul. Anything else require conscious control. This is why non-channelers also demonstrate Talents which all seem related somehow to Spirit, or are similar to Talents/effects related to Spirit in channelers... Min's Talent (in some way similar to Dreaming and Foretelling), Perrin's "soul bond" to the wolves (in the same family as Warder bonds), Dreamwalking which is a thing or Spirit etc.

My theory why the True Source can't be felt (and thus not reached) in Stedding is because stedding are pockets from another world, and in that world the flows are organized differently, ie: Spirit isn't the flow of sentience, it's rather the flow Trees and Ogier souls are made of.

Birgitte revealed in TOM that it's the Eelfinn or Aelfinn themselves who made the ter'angreal Portals to Sindhol, and who came to the humans to offer them a treaty. Brandon told Tamyrlin that they have vast stores of ter'angreal, and more importantly he started explaining that some things they can do aren't because of their Talents, but because they own ter'angreal that might be able to perform such things (eg: altering the physical appearance of someone).

I think this is because ter'angreal is simply their way to use the OP, a counterpart in their world to channeling, or Singing in the Ogier world: they "see" the threads of energy of which everything is made. It's how they perceive the world. A human sees a rock, they see how the Earth flow forms that rock.

Thus they must understand how each flow relates to the physical world, what matter(s) can stop Fire, or Air, or Spirit etc. If you use a matter Spirit can't pass through, and make an intricate matrix in a lump of a specific shape of that material, you could force the flow to adopt a certain shape, reproduce the equivalent of a weave, flows adopting a specific shape to produce an effect... becoming a pattern or symbol...or an object. The AS do this mentally, controlling the power, I believe the Eelfinn do something similar by drawing shapes/making motions using an object of a specific matter, or letting Spirit go naturally through a specific object in which they've designed a hole-out matrix, forcing the flow to adopt a specific shape, way too complex for an Eelfinn to "draw it" in the air.

IMHO, it's gonna be revealed by LTT in AMOL when he discusses the Finns with Moraine that the Eelfinn and the Aes Sedai of the AOL pooled their knowledge/skills to further develop the art of making ter'angreal, or "weave emulators". The Eelfinn know more about the complex relations of the physical world with the energy that forms everything, the AS had the unique talent to be able to draw the five flows distinctly, thus use the energies of non-sentient souls, not only Spirit. nor only their own soul energy. Obviously (because of the portals to other worlds they made) the Eelfinn can make ter'angreal of their own, but they're probably limited because only channeling is able to produce microcopic and incredibly intricate matrixes, and probably it's the only way as well to "merge" or transmutate many materials as well.

In their simplest form, ter'angreal emulate a weave a channeler can do, to spare him/her having to do the weave. With the Standing Flows to power them, that allowed non-channelers to use the function of those weaves without an Aes Sedai to make it for them, eg: the one to communicate from afar, reproduced with a "callbox".

In their more elaborate form, ter'angreal seem to perform weaves of so extreme a complexity to be beyond the mental capabality of a channeler to from them, or combine together many weaves in a precise manner, to produce extremely complex effects. I believe this second and third categories of ter'angreal were often conceived with active help from the Aelfinn and Eelfinn, because of the need for their different perception of how reality worked.

I think this will prove to be where their "great stores of ter'angreal" come from: by the treaty they kept their experiments/prototypes developped in collaboration with AS, and they are quite able to make some ter'angreal of their own too.. as long as they have a material naturally in their realms, and can create the matrixes through means other than channeling. AS may even have made them "matrix makers". It's very likely they're the ones who made Mat's medallion.

I also have a strong feeling ter'angreal with a relation to "alternate realities", "possible futures", "memories/blood memories" etc. in the series were all designed by the Eelfinn. That would include the arches the AS use to test Accepted, and far more obviously the WO's arches that essentially emulates the Talent of the Aelfinn.

I think the Aes Sedai of Rhuidean made a deal with Eelfinn so they'd make for them the Glass Columns.

Based on the few facts we know from RJ or Brandon about it (eg: it works only for those of Aiel blood), I think this seemingly incredibly complex ter'angreal is connected directly to Sindhol. The Eelfinn or Aelfinn (or both) can see the pattern of someone's life, thus they see that of a person in the ter'angreal. They can track the person's thread to birth, and from there find the thread of the mother/father.. all the way back to a Da'shain ancestor. It's how it determines if the person is or isn't of Da'shain ancestry. If not, the deal is that they do nothing.

If the person is Aiel, the Finns find specific moments determined by their bargain. They give the person in the ter'angreal those specific memories (just as they did with Mat...).

How is all this paid for? The emotions, to begin with... The Aelfinn don't ask for a price, they just enjoy the emotions without the visitor knowing. The Eelfinn are far more greedy... they love to have a physical bit of you to draw the emotions/experience from. It's their price, a blood price. It would be a fair bet, I guess, that the very old Rhuidean Aes Sedai and the Jenn Aiel (including the one named Nakomi) paird for this ter'angreal with their own lives. And to bind the Eelfinn to "operate it"? They feed on the emotions of everyone entering, and by their agreement they get their blood price from every one who fails. How do a WO candidate or Clan Chief candidate fails? Whenever the Finns don't see becoming chiefs or WO in their future. It's not about acceptance - Therava and co. reject the Aiel prophecies and show all signs not to believe what they've seen in the ter'angreal... but they've passed, because they were destined to become WO and chiefs of the corrupted plans, the Pattern needed them. The Eelfinn weed out each and every candidate the WO send who isn't destined to become chief or WO... and come (came, the Portal is now gone) get them as they are in the Glass Columns... not sign remains of those who failed...

We'd need to look no further to puzzle out where those clothes of human leather the Eelfinn have take to wear come from (they can't be 1000 years old - the last era in which the Eelfinn got visitors, they'd have desintegrated): they're the skins of the Aiel who failed the passage in the Glass Columns. For all we know they may get anyone who "vanishes" in similar ter'angreal.. the failed candidates to apprenticeship, and the failed Accepted....

Several clues also points to them also being the makers of the Portal Stones and "masters" (as in "they're the ones who understand them") of the "Worlds of If". The two most important is for the first that the PS also work using specific symbols in a language/alphabet terribly similar to the symbols of the "Red Doorways" and it's also very similar to the way to open a portal into or out of the TOG by tracing a symbol. The second important clue is that RJ let slip in a Q&A about the Finns' powers that the Finns have access to the "Mirror Worlds").

It's even how the Talent of the Aelfinn works, IMO: they can "see" the "Mirror Worlds" dimensions and thus can see all possibilities, and track the one most plausible to happen to a visitor (this is why their answers are so vague... implausible paths are "faded", the likely paths are more "vivid", but there are always choices, and they tell you about those crucial choices. The "answer" isn't a riddle, it's no meant to be understood until the time for a choice comes. Once Rand got his wound by Fain and it started interacting with his TP wound, a choice to Cleanse saidin appeared, and the Aelfinn had provided Rand information to make the right choice. Moiraine will either solve the "riddle" for Rand, as long foreshadowed (it's not about cardinal points. It means the People of the West (Seanchan) and the People of the East (the ill-named Westlanders) must ally "as one", the south and north refer to locations when Westerners and Easterners respectively now gather.. Merrilor and Ebou Dar., so when she tells Rand Mat has gone to attempt to convince the Empress of Seanchan to put aside conquest and come fight the LB he will understand the winning conditions aren't met and he must not Strike at SG yet.

TOM also reinforced the theories suggesting that some Shadowspawn may have Finns genes. Long ago, it was about the fact RJ used the very same wording to describe the way the Aelfinn moved like snakes that he used in the descriptions of Myrddraal, but with TOM it went further as Mat noticed the Eelfinn seemed to use shadows to move around.

Any, this got very long again, but I don't think I had exposed my Sindhol musings on this site yet, and it's relevant to show their connections are to very specific things, in summary it's about a wholly different way to "see" reality, a way to see the "possibilities and choices tying them to the Mirror Worlds, and about a wholly different way to create "patterns" with energy, based on shaping specific matter/symbols/colors to create effects.

Nothing in there suggests they have the sort of powers over soul or life manipulations in the vein of transmigrations RJ always made exclusive to Shai'tan.


And in every POV of Slayer so far, it's always hints about what Shai'tan made of him, what the Great Lord gave him. If he was made by the Eelfinn, RJ would have given us some clues by now.

He's Fain's antithesis in the series in some ways. He's the hound who accepted to be an hound, and the one who sees what the DO made of him as a series of "gifts". His merging with Luc also succeeded. They're "integrated" and functional. Fain/Mordeth is a utter mess, completely mad and unable to tell Fain from Mordeth anymore.

Luc was in TAR in Far Madding. Isam was in TAR in Two Rivers because Luc was in the waking world; fair is fair. Then Isam fought Perrin in the Dreamspike episode. Egwene has seen both in TAR.

The one and only time in the whole series we've seen Luc in TAR was in his "home", the Caemlyn palace, and it may be very relevant to that fact, ie: he maybe have become Luc without even noticing he did. Everywhere else he always appeared as Isam.

But in WH he reflected he could be Luc or Isam in both TAR or the RW at will, and sometimes it just seemed to occur, so presumably he's Luc in TAR occasionally.

He wasn't Luc in TAR in Far Madding, he was Isam. He became Luc as he translated himself in the RW.

I'm really puzzled about what makes you believe Luc isn't evil. To hear Isam, Luc is even darker/crueller than him (which is one reason why I believe he might have been captured by Red Veils, turned to the Shadow before he was killed at the Pit and the DO put his soul to cohabit with Isam's in his body) . Luc's the one of the two who hates Perrin the most obsessively.

It's Isam who showed signs of emotions and gave signs he can still feel some empathy. That doesn't make him any less a loyal servant of Shai'tan.

Perrin's nose also doesn't lie, and he said Luc and Isam smell different, but equally wrong, cold, cruel and inhuman.


Hopper showing up is a possibility; I thought of predicting Slayer would hand over control of the Darkhounds to Perrin, but I prefer to stay within spitting distance of evidence. Mostly.

Oh my, you really think Slayer isn't evil.

There was never any concrete evidence that Slayer controls/leads the DH or is in any way connected to them. It all comes from combining the facts he kills animals in TAR (and Slayer hates wolves in particular) and the theory (probably right) that the DH in WH hunted Fain, when we know Slayer hunts him too. But nothing concrete tying Slayer and DH ever surfaced. I think the DH hunting Fain in WH were sent by Demandred after Fain derailed his plans in Far Madding, and have nothing to do with Slayer or his mission to track down Fain from Moridin. Demandred had no wish for Fain to come near him in Lugard, or to interfere with his plans there. He sent packs of DH to eliminate him. They never found him, I believe Fain used the Waygate of Aran Mador to move out of the area and moved to the Blight when he got to Shadar Logoth and witnessed he couldn't exit there anymore as its Waygate no longer existed.

Cabadrin
11-25-2012, 06:51 AM
@Dom:

Why Thom? I suggest a connection between Luc and Thom at the end of my first post.

Cracks in his cover? I explored what I see as the most important ones in the second half of my first post.

My whole point is that I belive Slayer is working undercover. I am entitled to argue from that position without having to repeat my core argument in every post.

Luc fooling Isam? Some misunderstandings, possibly, but I argue they share the mission to defeat the Shadow.

The RAFO is relevant because there would be no reason to return to the matter just to say there is no connection between Slayer and the Finns, not in the book.

What trouble did DO go to, making Fain what he was before Shadar Logoth? Fain has a great deal to say about that. Compare with how the Finns repaired Mat's memories.

I know of no evidence DO had anything to do with the bond between Rand and Moridin.

I stay out of trying to figure out how the Finns do what they do. Don't try to build time machines from the descriptions in time travel stories, either, I don't think the author knows how to do it. There has to be a limit, even to RJ.

WH ch22. After the assassination:
His patron of the moment was waiting for him. A man, he was sure of that much, but Luc could not look at him.

Slayer isn't human. Don't know what he is. Perrin has never identified a darkfriend by smell, has he?

Yes, I really think Luc and Isam are heroes of the Light. Wouldn't have launched this thread if I didn't believe my own argument.

kivo
11-25-2012, 07:14 PM
There could be a whole "odd couple" style spinoff involving Slayer.

For example, what if Luc is a neatnick, but Isam is a slob? Luc wakes up and there's shit everywhere left by Isam. Or if Luc is the rumored gay character, and Isam wakes up in bed next to a man? Imagine the potential for hijinks and hilarious good-natured misunderstandings!

Dom
11-25-2012, 09:17 PM
Why Thom? I suggest a connection between Luc and Thom at the end of my first post.


Not what I meant by connections. I meant even some seed of evidence to connect Thom and Luc that way, an awareness of Luc or a reference to events from that time even, anything to justify your notion that Thom is aware the Mantear prince has not really vanished but had secretely returned a few years later to kill the new Queen's husband, and for some mysterious reason Thom never revealed to his Queen and lover Morgase that Luc Mantear was still secretely involved in Andoran politics...

Then you call this "not too far fetched".

Where are the usual clues typical of RJ's style? Where's the apparently innocent thought by Thom suggesting he knows stuff about the Mantears, for instance?

You also miss the obvious, for instance Thom's reaction when Moiraine implied he was behind Taringail's death. You find his reaction "excessive" after all these years, citing justice as if it's the law Thom feared. You seem to forget who Thom was talking to - Taringail's very own half sister and Aes Sedai beside and one of those scheming Damodreds, and that his reactions were more and more alarmed through the scene, because it's exactly the effect Moiraine was working to achieved. As the scene unfolds, Thom is already alarmed that Moiraine seemingly knows too much about his plots to help Rand against the High Lords, and he's extremely worried about her motives for letting him know she knows (eg: does she want to get rid of him by telling Rand what he did?). Then as Moiraine got Thom where she wanted, destabilized, she raised the stakes implying Thom had murdered her half-brother.. missing Moiraine's point which was to connect what he did for the young Morgase to what he was now doing for Rand, and that she disapproved. And he did get Taringail killed - his thoughts when Moiraine brings it up make it abundantly clear, and explains some of his discomfort around Elayne (there's even a "replay" of the TSR scene with Moiraine in TOM. Thom mistakingly believes Elayne knows he's murdered or paid for the murder of Galldrian Riatin).

Thom was shocked, anyone would be for less facing an Aes Sedai in that situation, and even worse when she's the sister of the victim. He countered by revealing he knew her exact connection to Taringail and implied she hid this from him on purpose. In other words, he told Moiraine he believed, or implied it, she was bringing all this stuff up as a prelude to exacting a Damodred revenge for Taringail's murder... and he tried to destabilize her by revealing he had reasoned out she was secretly involved with Rand with support from someone highly placed in the WT - in other words he told her "I'm not the only one with secrets that could be exposed".

Moiraine totally ignored what he reasoned out about her and the WT, that was dangerous and she couldn't let him see he hit the bull's eye with that, and she rather defused Thom's speculation that she wanted to exact revenge for Taringail, by letting him know indirectly she had not hid her House from him but simply never used it, then letting him know she had distanced herself from a House that in her opinion fully deserved its bad reputation even before the Aiel War and it became worse since. It's not Barthanes she meant, this was a comment about Taringail: Damodreds in Laman's days were bad, she thought her brother even worse. In other words, Moiraine told Thom he was quite wrong to believe she was seeking revenge for Taringail, that she considered Taringail got what he deserved. She was also telling him subtlety she disapproved of his methods by disapproving of her House's (which were much the same...)

That upset Thom even more, he stopped playing Daes'daemar with her move for move and irritably demanded bluntly what she wanted of him.

And she told him, as bluntly as a Cairhienin can: she wanted him to go to Tanchico, ie: she wanted him to leave Rand's circle.

QUOTE]Cracks in his cover? I explored what I see as the most important ones in the second half of my first post.[/QUOTE]

Again, not what I meant. I meant where are the clues in his POVs or scenes that Slayer isn't the dutiful servant of the Shadow he appears to be (he's not overly happy of how things have changed since the Chosen are around and they order him around, but he bears it and loves his hunts in TAR). His POVs show both Luc and Isam to be very nasty/evil.

Some of your interpretations do no match what happened either. E.g.: you portray Lord Luc as genuinely helping the Two Rivers people until Verin showed up and he stepped back.

The events don't support your interpretation. Luc wasn't helping, he was herding cattle. He kept people gathered in small groups at isolated farms instead of advising them to regroup in the villages, and scouts for the Shadowspawn movements. He basically had everyone gathering in small groups he knew where to find, and as they didn't leave their farms anymore and didn't scout they had no news but his to rely on. It's when Perrin destroyed his plans by gathering everyone in the villages that Isam fetched enough to mount a big attack.

My whole point is that I belive Slayer is working undercover. I am entitled to argue from that position without having to repeat my core argument in every post.

You've not brought a single example of clue/slip from his POV supporting your interpretation that Slayer is serving the Light "undercover". The picture of the man from his POV support the opposite: he's a cold, bloodthirsty killer, who rejoice in reminding himself of the details of his kills, in the act of taking life itself (and who loves to make the euphoria last, by killing people with his knives), and who revels in gratuitous cruelty. He's got the profile of a serial killer.

E.g:

He always liked to see the people he killed, after if he could not during. He had especially enjoyed those two Aes Sedai in the Stone of Tear. The incredulity on their faces when he appeared out of thin air, the horror when they realized he had not come to save them, were treasured memories. That had been Isam, not him, but the memories were none the less prized for that. Neither of them got to kill an Aes Sedai very often.

By the way, in your original post you implied maybe Luc/Isam didn't share thoughts and memories... the previous quote disapprove that.

With the poison, it was unlikely either would have had the strength to shout loudly enough to be heard outside the room, but he wanted to make this kill his own in a way that poison could not grant. Soon they stopped twitching when he thrust a blade between ribs

Your "Heroes of the Light" were having a massive kick out of killing a man they believe was the Dragon reborn.

And when his Chosen patron told him to stop hunting Rand for the time being, he thought:

It really was a pity. He had rather looked forward to killing his nephew and the wench. But if there was time to pass, hunting was always a pleasure. He became Isam. Isam liked killing wolves even more than Luc did.

What trouble did DO go to, making Fain what he was before Shadar Logoth? Fain has a great deal to say about that. Compare with how the Finns repaired Mat's memories.

Nice sophism. It's much the same as remarking the DO struggled to set the seasons in place, what the Finns did to Mat seemed easy in comparison, therefore the Finns are more likely to be responsible for vermin and diseases than the DO.

And how can you be sure what the Finns did to Mat was easy? He spent over a week in Sindhol, lost consciousness after concluding his bargain, and regained consciousness hung on Avendesora outside their realm days later...

They didn't heal his memory one bit, they gave him collected memories from other men that he would need to fulfill his destiny.

I know of no evidence DO had anything to do with the bond between Rand and Moridin.

There's no hard evidence, but the TP seemed to act with "a mind of its own" at Moridin's surprise. Graendal commented in TOM that it's fairly common for TP weaves to have unanticipated side-effects.

I stay out of trying to figure out how the Finns do what they do.

That's fine, but that's how you end up with weird notions such as the making of Slayer being "more up the Finns's alley" than the Dark One's, when everything points to Slayer having been made by the DO.

Great Lord of the Dark
11-25-2012, 10:09 PM
So much to comment on...

I'll only touch on 2 things for now:

1. Slayer as a parallel for Rand's self-sacrifice is not something I had considered, but it is very plausible that someone will play such a role.

2. The Dark One transmigrating Rand is one of my oldest theories. Ah, the good old days when Tamyrlin would argue so ardently, and yet here we are with a nice plausible mechanism thanks to the Moridin-Rand link.

Ok, get back to your argument!

Cabadrin
11-26-2012, 03:56 AM
Assuming, for the sake of the argument, that RJ wanted to place an undercover agent in a trusted position close to the DO while hiding this from the reader, how would he go about it?

First, this is a long-term high-risk project, unlikely to be undertaken by a volunteer on his own initiative; there will have to be a Foretelling behind events. He will not say so directly, that would give everything away, but there should be some hint of a Foretelling.

Second, he will seek to vilify the agent as much as he can without crossing the border where we are left with no alternative but to accept the agent as a genuine, obedient servant of the DO. He will stay close, very close, to the borderline.

Third, he will leave a few clues. Not many, it's not supposed to be easy.

Fourth, he will have to make it possible. The DO appears to control the Forsaken by awe, fear and the promise of rewards, adding Oath Rods for the BA. We know he went to great lengths to ensure control over Fain without the use of Compulsion. We do not know what, if anything, he did to Slayer, but the Finns are the only agency we know of that might provide protection if the DO did do something to ensure obedience. The Finns will extract a price.

@Dom:

I do not forget Thom is talking to Taringail's half sister, more importantly I would expect Thom to have been very much aware of this, and much better prepared, if he was the killer.

You do not falsify my separarate memory hypothesis (not a theory, just a question, I am not even certain it matters). This is a Luc memory, he was there, looking, hearing and feeling, he just didn't control the hand or share Isams thoughts.

Imagine yourself in Slayer's position, 30 years of this nightmare, your life and your mission depending on always staying in character. You will have to compartmentalize, to be, on the surface, the DO servant you are supposed to be. I do not call him a Hero as a joke.

codetoast
11-26-2012, 01:06 PM
Is it possible if Luc is a hero of the horn for him to be Shiva, making tigraine calian? Parallels don't seem to support it but the mask colors may be significant to aeil type. I don't necessarily believe Luc is a hero, but if he is, why not Shiva. As for appearing in TGH, I cannot offer an explantion.

Dom
11-27-2012, 05:15 PM
As for appearing in TGH, I cannot offer an explantion.

Luc is dead, I guess it's possible the Horn can call him (the same might happen to Birgitte, by the way. She isn't technically alive, she's got a special form of "death" and is in the wrong dimension, kept alive by Elayne's life thread/energy) and his soul returns to Isam's body rather than to TAR. If Isam happened to be in TAR when it happens, Isam might trapped in TAR, unable to exit it until Luc's soul returns to Slayer. Another option is that Isam is forced to "come along" when Luc's soul is called by the Horn.

I also think Luc and Tigraine may have been Calian and Shivan rather than this duo being born soon as Elayne's twins. In many ways, the birth of the Dragon marks the beginning of the end of the Third Age. It may be something Shivan does which ends the third Age once and for all.

Shivan the Hunter fits rather well with Luc's profile (especially since he appears to be the "big hunter" of the duo. Calian the Chooser is less obvious for Tigraine, though her choices were pretty fundamental, and she chose the Dragon Reborn's father, and chose to return to the Wetlands against all custom for a pregnant maiden. Etc.

The only things I don't like in Cabadrin's theory are) It's the Finns rather than the DO who made Slayer and 2) Luc is "undercover". I think Luc was turned to evil, plain and simple. It's being called by the Horn that frees him from the Shadow, IMO. It may well be he willingly went to his death as a sacrifice (like Tigraine), but I don't think he's "aware" of this right now.

SamJ
11-27-2012, 05:38 PM
Dom - I would be interested to know more on why you think Luc is a HOTH. Is it only that it would explain some of the special properties of Slayer or are there, eg mythological parallels?

Though I like the idea of Luc and Tigraine as the Twins, iirc Mat remembers them responding to the horn (when he talks to Birgitte in ACOS), so I'm not sure that works.

My take on the creation of Slayer is that it's an example of how some things are more powerful in TAR. Also, when Perrin describes their scent as cold and inhuman it reminds me of the consequences of entering TAR in the flesh that the WOs warn about. I figured it was something similar to what was done to the resurrected Forsaken - except without the previous occupant being removed, and done in TAR to make that effective with added cookies.

I do like the idea that Luc was turned as its hard to beleive him being such a nasty piece of work was never remarked upon when people remember him. Given that he doesn't seem to channel would 13x13 work? Perhaps he was corrupted in another way though (we've seem similar with Aridhol after all).

codetoast
11-27-2012, 05:43 PM
It's being called by the Horn that frees him from the Shadow, IMO

How come this didn't happen in TGH then?

Dom
11-27-2012, 08:12 PM
How come this didn't happen in TGH then?

I think it would have to do with whether Slayer is or isn't in TAR when the Horn is sounded (all this stuff is of course 100% speculative)

E.g: If Slayer is in the real world, Luc's soul gets called by the Horn and his soul is snatched into TAR and goes through whatever the Horn does to translate or reflect the dead Heroes, immune to the OP, in the real world (or makes TAR and the RW touch each other at a specific point. This fits more with some of the mythological sources of inspiration for the Horn/Dead Heroes... the Sidhe and the real world "merge" in a great fog, and the heroes/gods (the Tuatha Dé Danaan) come to Ireland. Later in the cycle, they hide the Sidhe from the humans (the Gael).

Luc becomes "all the Lucs" since the first time he became a Hero and joins the other Heroes. The evil Luc, turned to the Shadow (or corrupted by Isam's soul), is only a very small facet of a global Hero personality dedicated to the Light, and Isam's soul is overwhelmed by the whole, or in his body in the RW, he isn't affected.. it's simply that Luc's personality gets wiped from Slayer for a while. But their bond holds, and as the Heroes return to TAR, Slayer is "back to normal".

If Slayer is in TAR - Luc's proper place, not Isam's - when the Horn is sounded, perhaps Isam wouldn't survive the "call", or the "recall to TAR" processes of the Horn. Luc's eternal soul would be freed, Isam would die.

It could be the opposite, or some other rules. I'm giving this more as an example of possible mechanisms.

We could have a situation also where Slayer is in TAR doing something dire, in the middle of the endgame. Mat sounds the Horn, Rand's soul is freed from the DO's grasp, and Luc is temporarily freed from Slayer's body. Isam is temporarily only a man again, caught in TAR in the flesh with no way out until Luc's soul is back. Perrin gives him the so-called "final death", cutting the Slayer bond and freeing Luc's Hero soul. When the Heroes are recalled, Luc is dead in TAR normally again.

A Luc POV during the "battle of Heroes" would be enough to give us hints of what is happening, reveal Gitara's foretelling. reveal how becoming Slayer, letting his soul be grabbed by the Shadow, let him do his Hero job of putting an end to the Age, of "slaying it". Luc being called by the Horn/the undoing of Slayer, would mark the end of the Third Age. The removal of the Bore might correspond to that moment when the Horn is sounded. Rand might need to be dead, and have his full TAR powers and knowledge of the "All the Dragons" to do the deed. Events in the RW at the Pit would rather have Nynaeve removes the remnants of the Sealing, then Rand needs to die and face the Lord of Death directly, then be called back by the Horn, with TAR and the RW "merged" and him immune to the OP (and TP possibly...) to be able to remove the Bore (with or without help from Dreamwalkers and wolves uniting their Will as One to support his effort) without Shai'tan able to do anything to stop it, short of seizing Rand's soul, maybe.

Min may have found the relevant passage about this recently: The Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

This refers to either of two things, IMO. This is either Shai'tan being able to seize "all of Rand" (ie: his soul) because of his bond to Moridin, thus it needs to be cut so Rand can die safely.

Or this refers to dead Rand's soul in a direct face off against Shai'tan in the afterlife (TAR, for Rand).

I tend to think it's the first, by the way, but I'm also convinced Rand will have to face Shai'tan in death too, in his domain, and the Horn is the key to free him, because the real meaning of its etching is "Shai'tan is no bar to my call". I think the Chosen gave us a clue the way they reacted to Moridin's name. They either reacted thinking him a fool or extremely arrogant. It's before they learn Death itself gave him the name...

What "dire thing" Slayer may be doing in the endgame? When Moridin is dead, Slayer may be in TAR to give the "final death" to the dead Rand. The arrow flies, the Horn is sounded, Rand is called to the real world, and so is Luc. Perrin kills Isam.

Dom
11-27-2012, 09:28 PM
Dom - I would be interested to know more on why you think Luc is a HOTH. Is it only that it would explain some of the special properties of Slayer or are there, eg mythological parallels?

The concept for this exists in Greek esoterism (eg: in the Orphic Mysteries) but it's all very complicated/obscure stuff. RJ dug in that stuff for sure. Tuon/Fortuona comes primarly from there. It got confirmed by TGS. Previously it was just a hunch it was from Orphic religion specifically RJ took his version of Kore/Persephone, but when she transformed into "the Goddess of Fate/Fortune" it confirmed it. It's a cycle representing levels of initiation. Orpheus as The Fisher sends you through the cycle. You notably meet the Mother Goddess in various forms. First she's autumnal Demeter as the Grim Reaper, then she is her daughter Kore represented with a raven on her shoulder, and a lit torch in her hand. Then you meet her as the Goddess of Fate/Fortune, with her husband (Mat) who holds death (a poison) and life (a grain) in each hand. You take the poison (that seems to be Shadar Logoth in WOT) and face the Lord and Lady of Death (this is Persephone and Hades, but their representation is more dire than we're used to in the more mundane versions of Greek myths, devilish than in the lighter representations of the myths). Persephone is somewhat merged with the darker aspects of Artemis/Selene a Moon Goddess and more Lanfear than Egwene..., and Hades is associated to the Abyss - It goes on. At the end of the initiation process the Goddess is shown as The Empress (Demeter in full solar glory) who makes things grow and offspring be born, and the God is now summer Appollo. Again, it's not the lighter solar Appollo associated to music/poetry, but the more esoteric Delphic Apollo, with orecular powers. It's all fairly complicated (not all scholars agree on interpretation of the cycle either) and describing it from memory I probably have a few things wrong.

But you see the path of Tuon in it... Mat and her are now in their "Gods of fate" phase, but already on the threshold of going through a very dark phase where they might doom the light, which fits with Tuon's current plans. Then they emerge in a much brighter phase.. we should see the mischievous/playful Mat and Tuon again at some point.

Though I like the idea of Luc and Tigraine as the Twins

Nitpick: the series never confirmed them as twins. This is one of those things we all think we've been told and which in fact arose with the theory that Elayne's twins are Shivan and Calian (which doesn't make that much sense, Elayne's son would come too late to herald destruction and the birth of something new). Mat spoke of them only as brother and sister, which relationship they don't necessarily have while incarnated.

There was an interesting theory that Shivan the black is Luc, and Calian the red is Elaida.

Shivan the Hunter is the herald of the end of an Age and of the birth of a new one. He wears a black mask. His sister is called the Chooser, wears a red mask and RJ made sure not to tell us what's her "duty". :) She's not the herald, it's her brother who is.

There was another interesting theory that Ba'alzamon when he wore his black mask in TGH was mascarading as Shivan - herald of the end of the Age, and that his love of Red and Black is tied to Shivan and Calian somehow. Moridin was introduced, and so were his colors, in the same book Mat mentionned the Red/Black masks of Calian and Shivan.

But I prefer Luc and Tigraine as Shivan and Calian.

I figured it was something similar to what was done to the resurrected Forsaken - except without the previous occupant being removed, and done in TAR to make that effective with added cookies.

Replace "made in TAR" by "transmigrating the soul of a just killed Hero of the Horn - who now rightly would belong in TAR, so his captured soul shares the living body of Isam", and it's essentially the same theory and motifs. The difference is only in the way it relates to TAR.

I do like the idea that Luc was turned as its hard to beleive him being such a nasty piece of work was never remarked upon when people remember him.

Exactly. Turned to the Shadow, or corrupted by sharing a mind with Isam's soul, it doesn't seem likely Luc was in any way a "nasty piece of work". It would have been remarked on.


Given that he doesn't seem to channel would 13x13 work? Perhaps he was corrupted in another way though (we've seem similar with Aridhol after all).

Possibly. I base my notion maybe Luc is a latent channeler (aka a "learner") on his sister, as far as we know is real and full one, gave birth to Rand. Having the latent ability may be enough to be turned to the Shadow. I explain Slayer can't channel because it's Isam's body, and Isam doesn't have the right genetics.

I like my Red Veils hypothesis (ie: that the Red Veils captured him and had him turned to the Shadow) because it would mirror Tigraine who went to become a Black Veiled Maiden. That inverts the masks of Shivan and Calian... Then one day Luc and Isam were summoned to SG, Luc was killed and Slayer was made.

As I said originally, I believe Slayer is mostly an experiment to see if a Hero of the Horn could be controlled that way. A prototype for what the Shadow plans to do to Rand.

I think Rand-Moridin are already like Slayer, it only requires Rand to die to complete the making. Moridin has to die first to prevent it.

What would be interesting is if Moridin dying first would place his soul in Rand's body instead and prevents the "final death" he so wants to get. Then Rand's death would release his soul... which Shai'tan would willingly ignore and let go to the Afterlife/Soul Pool... his final betrayal of a loyal servant.

Cabadrin
11-28-2012, 02:16 AM
I was using "Hero" as a general honorific, I do not think Luc and Isam are Heroes of the Horn. Those seem to be a special category of returning souls, legendary warriors. No gleeman is likely to win fame and fortune with the Luc and Isam story, and what would they have been doing at Falme, sticking poisoned knives in people on both sides?

There should be some Heroes of the Horn resurrected for Tarmon Gai'don, Lan and Galad would be good candidates and we know Birgitte's partner Gaidal Cain is around somewhere; with the weird temporal connection between TAR and the waking world he could be old enough.

The core problem with the "Luc was turned" theory is the suggestion that Gitara sent him to the Blight. I find it inconcievable she would do that without a Foretelling and equally inconceivable that a Foretelling would have guided her to create a minor DO servant.
So, did RJ insert that rumor just to fool me? It didn't fool any of the rest of you.


SamJ - I like your explanation of the "cold and inhuman" smell:
RJ Okt 4 2005:
Slayer just chooses who he will be when he steps into or out of Tel'aran'rhiod. The stepping in and out is part of the mechanism for his change.

So there is a direct connection between Slayer and the TAR/WW interface.

SamJ
11-28-2012, 03:24 AM
Thanks Dom - interesting as always. I really like the ideas behind this, particularly the inversion of the masks. I hope this turns out to be right.

Dom
11-28-2012, 03:45 PM
I do not think Luc and Isam are Heroes of the Horn.

I never suggested Isam is a HoH. I think the DO captured himself a Hero with Luc. Much like the makers of the Horn found a way to "control" the Heroes to serve a purpose.

we know Birgitte's partner Gaidal Cain is around somewhere; with the weird temporal connection between TAR and the waking world he could be old enough.

It's been confirmed a few times, both by RJ and by Brandon, that this is impossible.

We can tell within a few months how old Gaidal is using Steven Cooper's chronology. That gives us two option's, as RJ contradicted himself slightly on this. Once he said the soul joined the body at fetal stage, another time he said it joined the body at the moment of conception.

Either way, "Gaidal" either was conceived, or reached the proper fetal stage, between Amadaine 22 (June 10) (the day after his last on screen appearance) and Maighdal 14 (August 16) 999 NE (the day before Birgitte said she has not seen him in TAR for some time).

We're in summer 1000 NE.

Perception of time while in TAR is very different from the real world. You may think you spent minutes there when it's been hours in the real world, and the reverse. But time never goes backward. Birgitte had no idea if she last seen Gaidal days, months or years ago. But we know. If was but a few weeks.

RJ has even confirmed Gaidal wasn't born to be involved in the LB (he said "he would sit this one out"), that he got spun out by the Wheel for a post TG purpose.


The core problem with the "Luc was turned" theory is the suggestion that Gitara sent him to the Blight. I find it inconcievable she would do that without a Foretelling and equally inconceivable that a Foretelling would have guided her to create a minor DO servant.

That's because you assume too much her foretelling was transparent. Most aren't. IMO there's not two foretelling, there's only one, sending Tigraine to the Waste and Luc to the High Passes, and Gitara had no idea why, beside that it was important. Gitara would have told Tamra if she knew or even suspected that Tigraine was sent away to become the DR's mother. She sent Tigraine first, and Luc later, probably to make it believable he had gone to look for his sister.


So, did RJ insert that rumor just to fool me? It didn't fool any of the rest of you.

Which rumor? About a foretelling?

There are a few "main" theories about Gitara and Luc that I know of.

- One is that Gitara had a foretelling to send Luc away to the High Passes. The first main variant cover the hypothesis that The Wheel wanted Luc away not to be there with Andor's armies when Tigraine returned as a Maiden, perhaps so he didn't find and raised Rand. The second variant cover purposes for the fact Luc had to be captured by the Shadow. Slayer has an unwitting positive role to play. A third variant is that Luc's purpose was to kill Janduin.

- The second main theory involve no foretelling. Gitara willingly sent Luc to his death in the Blight because he suspected she was behind Tigraine's disappearance and he started to pester her with too many questions. There's only so much word twisting an AS can do. In short, it's a variation on what happened to Gawyn. Elaida got fed up of his questions about Elayne and him being a nuisance with his Younglings, and she had Galina arrange for his death by the Shaido the WT knew were between Cairhien and the WT at the time. Sevanna betrayed Galina and tried to capture Rand instead.

Cabadrin
11-29-2012, 03:38 AM
"he would sit this one out"

I take your word for it, I didn't check Gaidal Cain in the interviews. There ought to be some reason for the temporal TAR/WW oddity, though. Rand needs more time in TAR before Mat recalls him to the Waking World?

But you didn't check the chronology (My underlining):

Sevenspokes: 971 NE

Lord Luc of House Mantear, brother of Tigraine Damodred, disappears in the Great Blight. Rumors suggest the involvement of Gitara Moroso, Queen Mordrellen's Aes Sedai advisor, who may have urged Luc to make the journey. [TGH-TP-590 / LOC-H-278]

Sevenspokes: 972 NE

Tigraine Damodred, Daughter-heir of Andor and wife of Taringail Damodred, disappears. Having been told by Gitara Moroso via a Foretelling that disaster would engulf Andor and its people if she did not join the Maidens of the Spear, Tigraine travels to the Aiel Waste in secret. [TEOTW-H-668 / TSR-H-392 / LOC-H-277]

Dom
11-29-2012, 08:48 PM
I take your word for it, I didn't check Gaidal Cain in the interviews. There ought to be some reason for the temporal TAR/WW oddity, though. Rand needs more time in TAR before Mat recalls him to the Waking World?

It's a characteristic of TAR. I guess time too is a reflection there, and for some reason it seems to fluctuate a lot. It might be perfectly possible to slow things down and accelerate them at will in TAR, but unless Will is applied to that purpose, we know it's something else that determines how time flows in TAR (RJ said there's a certain randomness to it but it's constant for a bunch of people together in TAR at the same time)

Will this have a purpose? Maybe. Not every little point of the world building will have.

Here are quotes about Gaidal:

QUESTION
He's too old (note from Dom: Olver is too old)

ROBERT JORDAN
Yes. Time in Tel'aran'rhiod and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in Tel'aran'rhiod, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.

Who says that what Gaidal has been reborn to do is to fight the Last Battle? There is more to do to keep the Pattern on course than the Last Battle.

Note: this one was about "how come Gaidal has been reborn since it's obvious he will be too old to fight in the LB for at least 15 years?"

There was another one I seem to remember where RJ said something like "I'm afraid Gaidal will have to sit this one (the LB) out", but it's not one the Terez has collected. I'll try to look into my old files to see if I have a source for it, this might have been from a Wotmania poster signing reports - a few of those have been lost.

But he's implied much the same in the quote above anyway. Brandon has also confirmed Gaidal is reborn now. At some point he's reported as having implied we've even seen him, but it was noted rather fast we've not met any baby fitting RJ's rather specific guidelines.

But you didn't check the chronology (My underlining)

I've not looked into the details of the back story of Luc in some time, no. Thanks. I mis-remembered some of the old theories, obviously. It must have been about sending Luc away ahead of Tigraine to get him out of the way first, so he didn't try to go after her, then sending Tigraine when Gitara was sure Luc was gone and not too soon so it looked too suspicious. Old stuff really, I've not discussed these issues in a very in a long time.

I think a foretelling was involved, by the way, I was merely commenting on other theories.

GonzoTheGreat
11-30-2012, 05:19 AM
Maybe Gitara just said to Luc: "Go take a hike." and Luc interpreted that as a foretelling.
If Luc resembled Gawyn when he was the same age, then this would be a perfectly believable explanation.

Dom
11-30-2012, 12:02 PM
Maybe Gitara just said to Luc: "Go take a hike." and Luc interpreted that as a foretelling.
If Luc resembled Gawyn when he was the same age, then this would be a perfectly believable explanation.

The daughter-heir goes alone in the Waste and gets herself pregnant, and her brother runs alone in the Blight.

Yeah, that sounds like Elayne and Gawyn all right...

You keep intermarrying to maximize bloodlines to Ishara, and this is what happens :D

Joke aside, it's interesting to see how the Pattern had a sort of echo of Luc in Gawyn and Tigraine in Elayne. Gawyn ended up serving Mesaana's purposes and hated Rand and wanted to kill him as Luc has killed Janduin - while for Gawyn AS have tried to get him killed by Aiel; Elayne keeps running around to "save the world"/help Rand - and ends up pregnant from Tigraine's son.

I wonder if it means after very central events have been set in place in the weaving, it takes a few generations for the Pattern to "loosen up", causing gradually fading "echoes" until it does. Another twisted "echo" of Tigraine/Luc is found in Moiraine and Taringail. Moiraine was also set on a life quest "to save the world" by a foretelling of Gitara - ended up seeking the Aiel, persuaded them to let her use the WO ter'angreal which sets her fate, while Taringail was a menace (it's even suggested he might well be the one who sent assassins to kill Moiraine) and got taken care of. And now Moiraine ends up with her brother's killer. And Elayne will seemingly give birth to yet another brother-sister duo, this time twins.

Anyway, if those patterns are really there and intentional, by reverse engineering it suggests Luc's "path" was also misguided/marked by the wrong choices/being used unwittingly by the Shadow. We never heard of Taringail's friends or entourage, but we know he had a DF cousin.

And the "paths" of Moiraine and Tigraine are precursors to Rand's, much like Elayne and Aviendha seem to be echoes.

RJ liked to put clues in the heraldry. Tigraine is interesting as it represents a willing sacrifice for the greater good (a hand bloodied by the thorns of a rose), following important choices (like Moiraine, like Rand). Luc's sigil is even more interesting as it's an acorn, the seed of the powerful and long lived oak tree. An oak takes a very long time to produce acorns, and they're the seed of something strong and long-lived. It would make a very good symbol for the Hero Shivan the Hunter who heralds the end of an Age and the beginning of a new one.

It's also interesting on Luc has begun his hunt by going to the Blight, and near the endgame he's set on possibly his real and final prey.

If Luc is really Shivan the Hunter, it would seem fitting that when he finds his prey the new Age will begin. Leaving for his Great Hunt was sort of the "beginning of the end", the transitional period between the two Ages started. Most of the "key births" (Rand, Elayne, Egwene, Mat, Perrin, Aviendha etc.) or key "life turning" events (Moiraine's, Morgase's, Thom's etc.) concerned with the end of the Age occurred in the years following Luc's departure for his "hunt", often set in motion by Tigraine's choices, and sometimes not very far removed... the pain of her departure killed her mother, which opened the path to Morgase, which freed Gitara to return to the Tower where her death placed Moiraine and Siuan on their own paths. Etc.

The departure of Luc on the hunt was marked largely by births, and sacrifice/deaths to bring about births. Tigraine dying for Rand, Mordrellen dying to open the path to Elayne's mother, Gitara dying to set Moiraine's path (and prevent the Shadow from putting her to the question. It seems likely she's not told even Tamra about Tigraine...)

Luc's departure also marked the apparition of Wolfbrothers (Elyas became one, and appears to have been the first, a few years after Luc went away and Rand was born), and Min was born 4 years later. New talents, typical of the transition between two Ages.

Since he became Slayer, his path seems set to be marked by deaths to bring about the new Age (an echo of "clearing the rubbles")... killing the assassins of the Shadow set against Nynaeve/Egwene (on the orders of a Chosen... most likely Lanfear countering Ishamael), killing BA pushing Elayne/Nynaeve/Thom forward (again on orders of a Chosen, most likely Lanfear again), causing the death of Mesaana on the eve of the LB etc. while the murders Slayer must not commit (at least not now...) all have failed despite his best efforts... Perrin, Rand and Min, Fain.

It's interesting to consider, if Luc is the Hero Shivan, that Shai'tan might have purposefully captured him, as if to prevent him from playing his role, stalling the transitional process to the next Age, or preventing at least the last stage. It fits quite well with other things Shai'tan does, like trying to make the seasonal cycle grind to an halt. Interesting too Shai'tan mostly use him as a hunter/assassin.

It's also interesting to consider a Chosen, and very probably Cyndane, has set Slayer on a target, and very likely in Moridin's back, as she told Slayer short of Shai'tan telling him otherwise he must go on.

Slayer seems very much a pawn in the rivalries of Lanfear and Ishamael... Interesting that Lanfear wants people alive when Ishamael wants them dead, and wants people dead when Moridin wants them alive for now. In the middle is Slayer, either sent as hunter/assassins, or to counter them, constantly being told to kill Rand, or taken away from this task by someone else. Lanfear and Ishamael somewhat have a Chooser/Hunter vibe going, except the gender are reversed: Lanfear's the Hunter, Ishamael's the Chooser. They even somewhat played a counterpart of these roles in the AOL (Lanfear being part of the drilling - but done by a Hunter (for LTT, for a new power), which set the end in motion, and Ishamael presided over LTT's death but it wasn't his doing, or wish, but LTT's choice (for obvious reasons, Ishamael/Lanfear were not Shivan and Callian but somewhat played their roles, in a skewed/inverted way. The end of the AOL seems distorted/skewed.. as if the second Age wasn't brought to a proper end, and the Third Age wasn't born right either.. the normal cycle couldn't occur, like the seasons are blocked etc (which seems normal for this phase of the cycle, however, like the third Age is The Age of Chaos): the changes of paradigms were brought by Shai'tan, no new talents appeared, the Age was spent replaying variations of the end of the Second Age, and awaiting the "true end", the LB):

It seems logical, if Shivan and Callian are Tigraine and Luc, that Callian gave birth to the Dragon after Shivan started his hunt, and Shivan is meant to kill him when the right time comes, completing the transitional circle.

A potential twist is that Slayer isn't meant to kill Rand that the cycle ends with the death of Moridin, freing Rand so he can bring about the new Age.

Interesting too that Shivan as a HoH would be so "dark", or have a very dark side. Prince Luc didn't seem dark, at least we've had no sign of that from people who've known him, but he would have gone on his hunt in the light, to fall into death and the Shadow. Two sides of a coin. It's dead he may be meant to accomplish his final role. This fits well with the hypothesis that the purpose of the weakness in the Pattern is to make the process of decay and death possible in Creation. Shivan would mirror this: he's a hero who needs to join the Shadow to be able to "kill an Age", while Callian is the one who chose if the Dragon would be reborn, and her offspring makes the choice if Creation should go on or not.

It will be fun to see if Callian the Chooser does anything of interest (like removing her red mask, she should have Tigraine's appearance, her last incarnation) when the Horn calls the Heroes, or in TAR sequences with dead Rand, maybe. That, or a POV of Luc (we always got Isam) are about the only ways I can see to confirm or hint at any of this.

If Shivan and Callian are Luc and Tigraine, it becomes obvious why they are shown masked - RJ didn't want Rand, Perrin and Mat to see their faces.

Very interesting their masks match Moridin's colors, associated to fire/blood and death. For Moridin they are the color of destruction and the final death as "the end of everything", the colors of the Pit of Doom, and probably how for Moridin the end is foreseen to come (dragon's blood on black rocks etc.).

Tigraine's choice is linked to blood in interesting ways, her choices brought the start of the final wars/conflicts, and she was the bringer in the world of the Dragon, but also the positive links to bloodlines, the Aiel blood, the Royal line of Andor, the culmination of bloodlines leading to Rand's birth (Ishara was "as dark as an Atha'an Miere", from the nobility of a nation where there's no dark skinned people anymore. We know Andor's line has Aiel blood, likely from Rhea and most likely an ancestor of Ishara's husband... while her own ancestry is exceptional, with her mother or father having made a marital alliance with the Sea Folk. So Rand isn't just Aiel, he's got Sea Folk blood as well). Even the final prophecy is one of red blood on the black rocks bringing salvation. And Luc's black is self-explanatory.

It's certainly a more interesting avenue for hardcore readers, to have some keys by the end to delve on the end of the Age process, than making Elayne's twins Shivan and Callian (they come to late to be, IMHO, all signs point to the transition to the fourth Age being well under way by now - too late for Shivan to be considered an herald).

SamJ
11-30-2012, 02:29 PM
Dom - an appearance by Tigraine in that manner in the last book might parallel Kari's appearance in the first book. Possibly Kari could represent Luc too, as corrupted by the shadow (whether she was real or a reflection).

Dom
11-30-2012, 04:02 PM
Dom - an appearance by Tigraine in that manner in the last book might parallel Kari's appearance in the first book. Possibly Kari could represent Luc too, as corrupted by the shadow (whether she was real or a reflection).

Yes, good point.

I believe if we could layer the finales of EOTW/TGH/TDR over each other just the right way, re-arrange the elements just the right way, what was skewed (inverting failures, making people not working together work together etc.) form the right combination, remove all the noise/dross RJ added to disguise things more, and fill in any intentional holes (he always included some in his repeating patterns), we'd come with something pretty close to the general shape of AMOL's finale.

A concrete example of this concerns how Nynaeve and Moraine are the two involved alongside Rand at the EOTW. They face Aginor (stand-in for Moridin?), then Rand has to deal with him, and move after that in TAR (as a HoH, it's his Afterlife), frees a captive dead soul, drives his sword into the heart of the dark, then returns. Egwene is a bystander, so are Mat and Perrin. Ba'alzamon then returns wearing the Red Mask of the Chooser. The dagger of SL lead the Shadow there. There are more elements to analyze, eg: Balthamel with his mask being dealt with by a Nym (Aiel warriors surrogates, Way of the Leaf? Balthamel is somewhat symbolic of corrupted history) who dies in the process.

TGH rather deals with the Horn of Valere angle. Perrin has the banner, Mat the Horn. Hawkwing has Justice. Rand is projected in the sky fighting "the DO", this time a staff is driven in his side, creating a TP wound. Egwene is a prisoner freed by Nynaeve. Fain is a by-stander and escapes.

TDR rather gives clue about the Callandor aspects. It's Rand who's baited to take the sword. Moiraine deals with Be'lal. Egwene breaks Elayne and Nynaeve out of jail, and captures prisoners. Mat has fireworks. The Aiel start the mayhem. Moiraine deals with Be'lal. Perrin too frees someone out of a prison with the wolves in TAR. Like all three confrontations, it's in two stages: one stage in the real world, one stage involving Rand facing who he believes is the DO in TAR/the Afterlife. SL is completely absent.

It probably doesn't stop at the first three "confrontations", but RJ was more obscure with the other layers. A lot of two stages/Afterlife surrogates again: Aiel Waste + the mysterious Rhuidean and a struggle for the AK with Asmodean, this time ending with Lanfear (she's a dark surrogate of Egwene in some patterns) capturing Asmodean. Perrin on the field (Green) fight Isam and what poured out of the "hole in the pattern" in the moutains north of EF that Loial and Gaul tried to close with a leaf of avendesora, Nynaeve fights over... a seal. Then again with Rahvin it's in two stages... fight in the RW, with Rand following in TAR, struggling for his soul/identity, Moiraine sends Lanfear and herself into an underworld. This time Nynaeve comes with a captive and distract Rahvin who is balefired by Rand.

And again with Sammael... a fight in Illian, then it moves to the underworld surrogate of SL... a trap on the Waygate (holes in the Pattern where a dark spirit lays... RJ often used Waygates as Pit of Doom stand-ins), Moridin appears this time to help... there's a weird interaction between TP and OP and their bond is created/enabled.

And there's the cleansing, which reveals the SL/TP/OP dynamics.

Mesaana's demise plays on some (incomplete) parallels too: TAR, prisoners/freeing prisoners wolves, balefire. Once more there are disguises/masks involved. This time for both Perrin and Egwene it's a big contest of will/cunning.

It's terribly hard to put it all together, RJ made sure it would be hard. But some variables show up a lot... balefire (as balefire or a symbol of the threat of destruction of the Pattern though, that's the question). Egwene (or Lanfear as her antithesis)/Perrin are often linked to "prisoners"/prisons, the wolves too. They have not worked together yet, except briefly against Isam/Mesaana. Nynaeve heals or fights, there's often a dynamic with Moiraine or a reversal of their roles, but it's not working (the pieces are all in place for their tandem to work now). For Mat it's definitely the "real world".. fights or the Horn, but a very strong motif is Mat arriving late, or getting killed or almost, or leading the enemy there unwittingly, or being a bystander in the finales. As if it's what he needs to avoid in the LB...

For the record, I do believe because the weakness has been turned into a Bore the DO has gained some power he's not supposed to have over the Afterlife. Kari has to be "real" somehow. How could Ishamael otherwise know the appearance of Kari al'Thor? Either that of the woman Rand believed was Kari was not Kari but a woman Rand, who barely remember her, mistook for Kari...his real mother Callian/Tigraine, either the dead HoH momentarily trapped by Ishamael, or she was a creation of Ishamael, who may have known her appearance, and her HoH role as the Dragon's mother.

Elan Morin Tenodrai do believe in the Patterns, linked souls, HoH, champions etc. Forcibly Shivan and Callian are very important to him. Shivan for Ishamael and Shai'tan would be the herald of the LB. Identifying Shivan and Callian would be a great advantage to the Shadow. Well, the Shadow might have found Shivan and thus would have known eventually who was Callian, but Callian vanished and reappeared in disguise. Ishamael seemingly returned from one of his eclipses too late.

If Luc/Tigraine are the two Heroes, and Callian is the Dragon's mother, it's very clear why Rand's birth and raising had to be so... tortuous. The Wheel has gone through great lengths to hide him: an Andoran was sent to a people of the same colouring, the foreteller who sent her died, Luc was sent to the Shadow. The prophecy spoke of a maiden, but Tigraine was already a mother and re appeared as a Maiden, Rand's birth happening during a chaotic battle between Aiel and the alliance of most nations... then when Ishamael might expect Rand is Aiel, Luc kills Janduin, and Rand ends up provided the right adoptive mother to disguise his real ancestry, and hidden in the most isolated nation.

GonzoTheGreat
12-01-2012, 04:37 AM
Dom - an appearance by Tigraine in that manner in the last book might parallel Kari's appearance in the first book. Possibly Kari could represent Luc too, as corrupted by the shadow (whether she was real or a reflection).

Kari has to be "real" somehow. How could Ishamael otherwise know the appearance of Kari al'Thor? Either that of the woman Rand believed was Kari was not Kari but a woman Rand, who barely remember her, mistook for Kari...his real mother Callian/Tigraine, either the dead HoH momentarily trapped by Ishamael, or she was a creation of Ishamael, who may have known her appearance, and her HoH role as the Dragon's mother.
Ishamael may have let Rand determine the appearance of Kari, thus making sure that Rand would then recognise the figure as his mother.

If the Shadow had had access to Kari before that scene, then Ishamael would have known that Tam al'Thor had found a baby on Dragonmount and had given that to his wife to be their own. That was kind of a fairly big clue, and I suspect that after some thinking Ishamael would have managed to spot the significance of it.
Combine that with Kari undoubtedly knowing that neither the Cauthons nor the Aybaras had left the Two Rivers, and the puzzle would have been solved in the same day that Padan Fain reported he had narrowed the list down to three options. That would've meant that the Trollocs had come a year or so before Moiraine arrived, and then things would have turned out quite differently.

So, all in all, there is strong circumstantial evidence against the idea that Kari had been real in that scene.

Dom
12-01-2012, 11:48 AM
So, all in all, there is strong circumstantial evidence against the idea that Kari had been real in that scene.

I see it more as strong evidence what we see happening to Kari in that scene can't possibly be real.

I also agree with you it's not possible the Shadow has had access to Kari while she lived, or even know she existed. It's with the Red Ajah I believe Tam and Kari had a brushing, and it had nothing to do with Rand even though I suspect Tam and Kari thought otherwise (that is all based on the legend of Tamlin and the Queen of the Red Fairies)

I also believe it's most unlikely Shai'tan seized that random soul when she died.

That leaves a few options:

- I'm not sure someone even in TAR can construct a reflection out of someone else's memories, but if I'm wrong Ishamael might have used Rand's mental image of Kari.

- It's hardly difficult for Ishamael to create a kindly looking woman with Rand's appearance and dress her in clothes similar to Nynaeve's... Ishamael almost certainly knew from Fain's intelligence of Rand's family background. That's probably the most likely explanation. She was a close enough Kari look-alike to fool Rand, he barely remembered her face. It wouldn't have fooled Tam or even Nynaeve.

- Hard to know how much Ishamael found out about Luc and Tigraine in all those years. Maybe nothing, maybe the whole thing. He might have puzzled out Tigraine was Rand's mother by that point, and based his Kari on her (or made her a feminine version of Luc). For all we know, Ishamael puzzled out parts only and concluded the Two Rivers as Tam's wife is where Tigraine ended up in hiding. What we know for certain about the Shadow and Tigraine is that by WH Luc knows Rand is Tigraine's son. Has he known since circa TSR or long before, and does he know of Shael or learned some other way, we don't know.

- We still don't know what's really the deal with the DO and ghosts. Is it limited to some souls (DF, or those who attracted his attention), or it's any soul? Must he have the soul, or is it some other power only to brush the shades in the Afterlife or something like this he has? It's not impossible Shai'tan could have shown Kari's ghost to Ishamael, or that Ishamael has some access from Shai'tan to the ghosts/damned (his dreamshard in the prologue was certainly weird, the faces in his palace too).

It's hard to speculate with the ending of the EOTW, as we know RJ wrote it with some dual intent to deceive us about what really happened but also to give some sort of satisfying ending, in an open-ended sort of way, to the tale if it was such a failure he abandoned the series.

The ending seems to include a mix of deceptions and hints at what his concepts of Shai'tan's powers, and some main themes, really were.