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Res_Ipsa
11-26-2012, 11:08 AM
Day #1 "It had been useful at Maradon. Nobody knew he had it. That was important."

Day #2 "'I should like to hear one of your stories. Perhaps you could tell me of the time your father and you visited Shara'"?

Day #3 "'Being married is not so bad, Perrin. Why didn't you tell me it was not so bad? I think I am rather fond of it.'"

Day #4 "Pass his bond to me."

Day #5 "'Creator shelter us,' she whispered. Mat scowled. 'You know, that's what Tuon said.'"

Day #6 "The right thing had always seemed clear to Galad before, but never had it felt as right as this. Those streaks of light were like indicators on a map, arrows pointing his way. The Light itself guided him. It had prepared him, placed him here at this moment."

Day #7 "'Nobody travels the Ways,' Ituralde said, aghast."

Day #8 "Egwene strode around a frozen pillar of glass in her dream. It almost looked like a column of light. What did it mean? She could not interpret it."

Day #9 "The letter was written in Mat's hand. And, Elayne noticed with amusement, the handwriting was much neater and the spelling much better in this one than the one he'd sent her weeks ago."

Day #10 "'And farewell to you, old friend,' she said to the air. 'Until I dream again.'"

Day #11 "'One more thing, the marath'damane . . .'
'I'll deal with those channelers personally,' Mat said. She gawked at him as if he were insane."

Day #12 "Enough talk. You will bed me now."

Day #13 "'We must spread the word to all of our allies,' Amys said. 'We must not use this weave.'"

Day #14 "That, she replied back, is something one should never, never say to an Aes Sedai. Ever."

Day #15 "'It is a simple thing, to stop a man’s heart,' Cadsuane said, arms folded."

Day #16 "Do not cut off your foot for fear that a snake will bite it, Perrin Aybara. Do not make a terrible mistake because you fear something that seems worse. This is all I will say on the topic."

Day #17 "It is one of the three things which I will require of you. Your payment, to me, in exchange for my life."

Day #18 "Fortuona ignored her, standing. 'This woman is my new Soe'feia. Holy woman, she who may not be touched. We have been blessed. Let it be known.'"

Day #19 "'What did you do to your eye?'"
"'A little accident with a corkscrew and thirteen angry innkeepers.'"

Day #20 "As Tam attacked again, Rand lifted the sword and-"

Day #21 "And you don't feel a small measure of pride? Egwene asked herself. Rand al'Thor, once simple village boy and your near-betrothed, now the most powerful man in the world? You don't feel proud of what he's done?"

Day #22 "'Why are you helping me?' Perrin demanded.
"I'm fond of you, Perrin.'"

Day #23 "'Light burn me,' Rand said. 'You're not him, are you?'"

Day #24 "There were many good years. Good decades, good centuries. We believed we were living in paradise. Perhaps that was our downfall. We wanted our lives to be perfect, so we ignored imperfections. Problems were magnified through inattention, and war might have become inevitable if the Bore hadn't ever been made."

Day #25 "'Oh, blood and ashes, no!' Cadsuane said, spinning on them. 'No, no, no.'"

Day #26 "Uno's topknot danced as he continued to blaspheme."

Day #27 "'Peaches!' Rand said, aghast. Everyone knew those were poisonous."

Day #28 "'But this . . . this isn't about blacksmithing, Perrin . . .'
'Of course it is,' Perrin said. How could Rand not see that?"

Day #29 "'Didn’t you once lead a band of thieves out of this forest?'
Birgitte grimaced. 'I was hoping you hadn’t heard that one.'”

Day #30 Rand strode forward, lifting his arms out to the sides. Grass sprouted in waves, red blossoms burst from the ground like a blush upon the land. The storm stilled, the dark clouds burned away by light.

A joyful song, a song of awe and wonder, though she could not understand the words.

Day 31 He doesn't want to fight in Andor, Elayne thought. He doesn't want to fight alongside me. He wishes the break to be clean.

Day 32 Rand stiffened. He'd known what he was doing, on some level, but to hear it explained was disconcerting.

Day 33 If the end of the Aiel was the sacrifice required for Rand to win, she would make it.

Day 34 What did you do when the One Power failed, the thing you relied upon to raise you above common folk?

Day 35 The Blight had consumed the Two Rivers.

Day 36 "Run, Bela," Faile said. "If you've kept any strength back, now is the time to use it. Please. Run, girl. Run."

Day 37 I AM THE ONLY HONESTY YOUR WORLD HAS EVER KNOWN.

Day 38 Humankind did not have days remaining, but hours.

Day 39 They seemed to be cracks into nothingness. They drew the light in, sucked it away. It was as if he was looking at fractures in the nature of reality itself.

Day 40 "We'll remember those who fell, and we'll tell our children how we stood when the clouds turned black and the world started to die. We'll tell them we stood shoulder to shoulder, and there was just no space for the Shadow to squeeze through."

Day 41 They stood at the edge of time itself, and still Thom Merrilin found a smile.

Day 42 Loial, son of Arent son of Halan, had secretly always wanted to be hasty.

Day 43 By the Light, he had a book to finish before he went!

Day 44 Rise, and save the world.

Fin!

Boli
11-26-2012, 11:14 AM
oh wow that is certainly tantalizing... my first thought is an object of the one power.

perhaps even the "missing" powerful sa'angrael referred to in book 4 by Lanfear. Considering he just came from the white tower maybe he picked something up?

Res_Ipsa
11-26-2012, 11:16 AM
Yes "it" implies something concrete and readily ascertainable to one with proper knowledge. I too would be in favor of a power object.

Terez
11-26-2012, 11:32 AM
Another chip away at the stupid Jesus Rand people. Yay.

Davian93
11-26-2012, 11:35 AM
Another chip away at the stupid Jesus Rand people. Yay.

He works in mysterious ways, my child.


Clearly the "it" in this spoiler refers to "gumption" or "charisma".

fdsaf3
11-26-2012, 11:38 AM
It's probably an 'angreal of some sort, but it's possible that Rand is referring in some way to his connection either to his past lives or his broader connection to the One Power. He's cognizant of his connection to the Light and being the Light's Champion, so maybe he's referring to that as well.

But yeah, it's probably something to do with an 'angreal. One sentence taken out of context, and a rather ambiguous sentence at that, isn't much to go on.

Edit:

Write a post, immediately think of something to disprove myself. Typical.

The "no one knew he had it" makes me doubt very seriously most of what I wrote. Everyone knows (or should know) that Rand is the Dragon Reborn. So...I'm going to go ahead and just conclude that he's referring to some object of the Power here.

Res_Ipsa
11-26-2012, 11:39 AM
It could not have been something large, if this is Rand speaking, he would not have been able to conceal it. Always the chance of another character though, perhaps one of the new dreadlords. The next sentence would read something like, "but then he had come and ruined everything," referring to Rand.

GonzoTheGreat
11-26-2012, 11:52 AM
Day #1 "It had been useful at Maradon. Nobody knew he had it. That was important."
Davran Bashere. Talking (well, thinking) about the bit of tree that he had saved from when his teacher had those trees executed and buried. If Bashere were to admit that he had spoiled the burial he would of course be executed himself, yes my precious, he would. So he doesn't tell anyone that he has it. But it is what brings him luck. It is why he became a Great Captain.

Or maybe not. I do think that this theory deserves equal time with the "Rand got some sa'angreal in the WT while being watched by dozens of suspicious AS" one. It makes at least as much sense, after all.

codetoast
11-26-2012, 12:10 PM
Rand speaking. Justice, a secret sa'angreal. How else was he able to suddenly channel for allthat time with that much power and controlling that many flows?

Davian93
11-26-2012, 12:14 PM
Rand speaking. Justice, a secret sa'angreal. How else was he able to suddenly channel for allthat time with that much power and controlling that many flows?

Justice is the other sa'angreal that Lanfear mentioned...it all makes sense now!!!

Terez
11-26-2012, 12:24 PM
If it's Justice, then it's the scabbard, not the sword.

Davian93
11-26-2012, 12:26 PM
If it's Justice, then it's the scabbard, not the sword.

I dont think its either but its a fun theory either way.


Even funner: Its a sa'angreal that is keyed specifically to the Dragon soul so nobody else can use it. (thus why nobody knew what Justice was previously) and why the prophecies mention the Dragon wielding Justice.

jana
11-26-2012, 01:26 PM
A brain.

neurotopia
11-26-2012, 11:30 PM
If it is Rand's POV, he's testing something out and it isn't necessarily an angreal/sa'angreal. Maybe he's got that dagger to hide him from the Shadow, or he's trying to determine what happens to one of the Seals when he comes close to a direct confrontation with the DO.

GonzoTheGreat
11-27-2012, 02:48 AM
jana's suggestion makes even more sense than the one I made, I must admit.

Cabadrin
11-27-2012, 03:02 AM
Bayle Domon, ship captain and collector of ancient objects, on his way south after a winter in Saldea when we meet him first time. Recently reappearing in the story, for no apparent reason and with no apparent mission.
EDIT he didn't know the a'dam had resurfaced so he had a reason to seek Elayne and Nynaeve to tell them END EDIT

So he has a nonchanneler ter'angreal.

Menthu
11-27-2012, 03:39 AM
If it's Justice, then it's the scabbard, not the sword.

Arthurian legend paralell?

What of the small fat man angreal he lost at Dumai's Well? Maybe he acquired that somehow back? Would help him with all the channeling and Taim (AFAIK) couldn't secure it at that time.

But where did he get it / recollect it :confused:

GonzoTheGreat
11-27-2012, 04:30 AM
But where did he get it / recollect it :confused:
Min had it all the time. He simply hadn't thought of asking her about it. This is yet another example of the "male/female failure to communicate" that is such an important theme in the series.

Great Lord of the Dark
11-27-2012, 06:25 AM
I don't know when he would have gone to collect it, but Aviendha and Elayne's Knife of Dreams that makes him undetectable to the Dark One would be of great use in whatever Shadow destroying idea Rand is planning.

I really like these other answers. A brain. A piece of tree. All that's missing is for my favorite poster Weiramon to posit that it was Cavalry, burn his soul.

Sporkster
11-27-2012, 08:10 AM
I agree with GLOTD. The Knife makes the most sense - mainly because of Rand's comments that he came close to exposing himself (heh) to the DO there, but didn't. Having the Knife helps that scenario come together.

Of course, my first thought when I read the quote was that Rand was talking about the True Power. But that makes no sense...

Davian93
11-27-2012, 08:16 AM
If it's Justice, then it's the scabbard, not the sword.

I always thought that Min was the scabbard for Rand's sword...

Khoram
11-27-2012, 08:32 AM
I always thought that Min was the scabbard for Rand's sword...

Yeah, but so are Elayne and Aviendha.

Dom
11-27-2012, 08:35 AM
I'll throw in my first idea, though after sleeping on it I don't like the idea as much as I did at first.

Little Fat Man was in Rand's coat, that got taken from him after his capture.

It seems likely whoever found the OP object handed it to the fairly authoritarian leader of the group: Galina. She's the one who would be expected to hand it over to the Hall/Elaida. Galina may of course have gone through Rand's things herself, and being a BA leader, kept the finding of the suspected angreal secret (why give it to Elaida, when she could hand it to a Chosen expecting reward?)

Rand searched everywhere in the wreckage of the AS camp at Dumai's Wells, but the angreal was most likely in Galina's saddlebag on her horse that got killed by a Shaido in the area where the Younglings had first retreated.

Either the angreal was found by a Asha'man inspecting the area, or it wasn't found. Asha'man wouldn't know it belonged to Rand. We know angreal are attractive to channellers (they even become fond of them) and they don't like sharing them or giving them back. An asha'man who found the little fat man might well have kept his finding secret, suspecting if he reported it to the M'Hael, Taim would likely take it from him.

I think there's a fair chance RJ intended it to be lost for good, a plot device to leave Rand without it, and to increase a notch his paranoia and mistrust. At first when it begun, RJ wanted us to know Rand chasing after shadows (eg: we knew Asmodean was dead) but soon he had us catch Rand's "disease". Taim looked immediately like bad news, Bashere looked odd, the Andoran nobles were really shady, RJ didn't give us a final answer on Fel's murder or its true motive, and there was the disappearance of the little fat man angreal.

If RJ's outline makes no mention of the little fat man, Brandon might have had to decide if he brought it back or not, and in whose hands. In a Q&A exchange about it, Brandon said as a fan he was "fond of the little fat man angreal".

So my idea is that Brandon decided his new "omnipresent" Asha'man Naeff was the one who found it in Galina's saddlebag in the aftermath of Dumai's Wells. There's no hard evidence Naeff was there, but with his background as a Queen's Guard who resigned when Gaebril took command, and who went to the BT on his own and had time to rise to Asha'man level, it's very possible he was at the BT early enough to have been at Dumai's Wells. In TOM, Brandon brought Naeff up to speed on "super weaves" (he's the one witnessing Rand's work at Maradon and being amazed) and let us know Naeff had the opportunity to see Rand's weaves up close. Later, Rand adds inverted MoM/disguises to his repertoire, and sends him to enter the BT in disguise to inspect it and bring back intelligence. It's pretty likely Naeff also knows how to enter a mixed gender circle. The little fat man could give him an additional edge.

IMO it's too early for a fight inside. I think what Naeff is meant to accomplish, beside gathering intelligence about what's going on inside, is saving Egwene's envoys outside the BT. This could turn into a fight if Taim's guards see them break camp. A mixed gender circle with or without an angreal might save them.

IMO, Egwene's envoys will return on day 2 of Merrilor, the day on which Rand expected to strike at SG but won't be able to because he'll find out, in part thanks to Moiraine, the winning conditions of the Aelfinn aren't yet met and he must wait for Mat to bring him the Seanchan. I think it's Moiraine's role: tell Rand where Mat has gone and when he tells her his plan to strike the next morning, puzzle out the North-South-East-West riddle and convince Rand he must delay. It's how she "saves the day".

When Rand's plans must be put on hold, all the problems he meant to by-pass with an early strike will return on the agenda: BT, Demandred's tactics to divide his forces in pockets to take out one by one, the WT and nations' fear of the Seanchan etc. The return of the 47 envoys (or most of them) is important; the Hall and Egwene would be murderously furious if Rand brings in the open what he knows about the BT but he's not warned the 47 envoys to get out of there. Producing the envoys would calm things down a bit, but there's the issue of the Reds who will be horrified their Sitters may have been turned to the Shadow. Will they finally tell the truth to the Amyrlin or try something on their own?

Dajoran
11-27-2012, 08:40 AM
I always thought that Min was the scabbard for Rand's sword...

Ahh... if only I could rep...

Dom
11-27-2012, 08:48 AM
I agree with GLOTD. The Knife makes the most sense - mainly because of Rand's comments that he came close to exposing himself (heh) to the DO there, but didn't. Having the Knife helps that scenario come together.


"At Maradon" could refer to events that have not happened yet, but if it doesn't as seems likely, there's not really any way Rand can have the dagger ter'angreal. Only Elayne and Aviendha know about it, and there's been no contact between Rand-Elayne and Rand-Aviendha in TOM.

Davian93
11-27-2012, 08:48 AM
Yeah, but so are Elayne and Aviendha.

The 3 become 1 prophecy clearly refers to at least 1 of those two being "part of the equation" so to speak.

Why yes, that was more sexual innuendo.



Also, on a more serious note, that's a good a theory as any. We briefly discussed that possibility on the Yuku board last night after the hamsters got into the vBulletin wiring and the Fat Man angreal makes the most sense. I dont care for that possibility (it'd be better plotwise if it was just lost or if Taim had found it but whatever). Brandon's answer on that question reeks of "little boy who knows a secret but cant help but share it" so its probably the fat man angreal.

Davian93
11-27-2012, 08:49 AM
"At Maradon" could refer to events that have not happened yet, but if it doesn't as seems likely, there's not really any way Rand can have the dagger ter'angreal. Only Elayne and Aviendha know about it, and there's been no contact between Rand-Elayne and Rand-Aviendha in TOM.

It makes the most sense that it was past-tense and the fat man angreal (I know you agree on that and are just pointing out other options).

I dont like it because it takes away from my Super Rand "Creator's Avatar" theory but whatever.

Dom
11-27-2012, 09:03 AM
Terez:

Another chip away at the stupid Jesus Rand people. Yay.

Not a fan of "Jesus Rand" much, but an angreal wouldn't explain fruits go through a full growth cycle where he walks, nor would it explain DF at Maradon couldn't look him in the eyes anymore, and while it could explain his apparent great strength, it would not explain the baffling number of flows/weaves he can now control.

And above all, I might not like "Jesus Rand" one bit (not that I would really pick Jesus as parallel, increase in powers because of his new found balance and harmony with the whole fits much better with Asian myths), but I would like even less reducing Rand to the level of a crook TV preacher pretending he's doing miracles when in fact it's all a trick and he's got an angreal in his pocket all along... That's an old trick of Ishamael from the early series, not worthy of Rand, or the Light.

Davian93
11-27-2012, 09:06 AM
A loosening of the Pattern combined with him being massively ta'veren (the loose pattern allows his ta'vereness to magnify its typical effect) would go a long way towards explaining that...along with the "Dragon is one with the Land" dynamic that we've never really delved much into.

GonzoTheGreat
11-27-2012, 09:11 AM
Seriously, the Knife wouldn't work at all, as, if he has it, then he got it either from Elayne or Aviendha, which would mean that at least one other person actually knows that he has it. Which in turn directly contradicts his "Nobody knew he had it. That was important." thought.

It could refer to some kind of spy device that Demandred has. If the other Forsaken were aware that he had such a thing, they could no doubt shield against it, so it is important that no one finds out.

metaphor
11-27-2012, 11:21 AM
Justice is the other sa'angreal that Lanfear mentioned...it all makes sense now!!!

Or a ter'angreal that affects guilty people and blinds darkfriends.

Terez
11-27-2012, 12:10 PM
"I should like to hear one of your stories. Perhaps you could tell me of the time your father and you visited Shara?"Someone talking to one of the Aiel or Sea Folk presumably.

Res_Ipsa
11-27-2012, 12:13 PM
Someone talking to one of the Aiel or Sea Folk presumably.

Updated, and yeah maybe Noal had some kids.

codetoast
11-27-2012, 12:13 PM
Androl son of Noal

WinespringBrother
11-27-2012, 12:19 PM
The storyteller could be Nalaam at the Black Tower, who seems to have an interesting past (visited Sea Folk isles, rescued a Two Rivers man from drowning) and has made claims about his parents as well (father being a Domani merchant, mother infiltrating the Tinkers to steal their recipes).

Res_Ipsa
11-27-2012, 12:27 PM
The storyteller could be Nalaam at the Black Tower, who seems to have an interesting past (visited Sea Folk isles, rescued a Two Rivers man from drowning) and has made claims about his parents as well (father being a Domani merchant, mother infiltrating the Tinkers to steal their recipes).

I like that.

Great Lord of the Dark
11-27-2012, 12:29 PM
"I should like" is a turn of phrase that sounds like Tuon, and she's more likely to be curious about Shara at this point than anyone else.

I suppose a certain number of snooty Aes Sedai could also fit the tone, but they'd have much less interest in Shara.

Although the person talking about his father is likely Olver, which undermines the Tuon angle. Only Olver would be scalawag enough to try pull this fast one and know enough about Shara to pull it off.

ScoundrelTheToy
11-27-2012, 12:35 PM
Day 2's sentence is Pevara talking to Androl :D. Pevara 'knows' everything about Androl now with that double-bond and she's asking him to talk about his family. So now we know that Androl's extensive traveling is due to his father. NEXT!

fdsaf3
11-27-2012, 12:37 PM
"I should like" is a turn of phrase that sounds like Tuon, and she's more likely to be curious about Shara at this point than anyone else.

I suppose a certain number of snooty Aes Sedai could also fit the tone, but they'd have much less interest in Shara.

Although the person talking about his father is likely Olver, which undermines the Tuon angle. Only Olver would be scalawag enough to try pull this fast one and know enough about Shara to pull it off.

I don't think Tuon is allowed to speak in the first person, nor do I think she'd entreat someone to tell her a story. She's the Empress (may she live foerver) - she tells you to tell a story, she doesn't ask.

I have no clue who the speaker is in the second quote, though.

Dajoran
11-27-2012, 01:05 PM
Day 2's sentence is Pevara talking to Androl :D. Pevara 'knows' everything about Androl now with that double-bond and she's asking him to talk about his family. So now we know that Androl's extensive traveling is due to his father. NEXT!

I agree. The 'I should like...' formal tone screams Aes Sedai to me.

glorious2D
11-27-2012, 01:15 PM
"I should like to hear one of your stories. Perhaps you could tell me of the time your father and you visited Shara?"

My first instinct was that Tuon was talking to Rand, and misinterpreting as fact one of the stories she's heard about the Dragon's upbringing.

But now I prefer the Androl, son of Noal guess, above. I'm sure there's something deeper going on with Androl...

Davian93
11-27-2012, 01:41 PM
I agree. The 'I should like...' formal tone screams Aes Sedai to me.

Funny, it just screamed awkward dialogue/bad writing to me...

frenchie
11-27-2012, 01:43 PM
I suspect we're going to be seeing alot of this in this book.

Terez
11-27-2012, 01:56 PM
The 'I should like...' formal tone screams Aes Sedai to me.
Funny, it just screamed awkward dialogue/bad writing to me...
.
"Interesting," Cadsuane said when they were gone. Her dark eyes locked with Amys' blue, and Cadsuane, at least, seemed to like what she saw. At any rate, she smiled. "I should like to meet this Sorilea. She is a strong woman?" She seemed to emphasize the word "strong."
“I should like to see these cities,” Tuon said, moving Akein nearer to Pips. “Will you show them to me, Toy?” Selucia kept the dun at Tuon’s hip. The woman looked composed enough, but doubtless she was shaken by what she had seen.

Davian93
11-27-2012, 01:58 PM
Its still bad dialogue regardless of who wrote it.

metaphor
11-27-2012, 01:59 PM
I suspect we're going to be seeing alot of this in this book.

You mean people trying their hardest to find ways to accuse Sanderson of bad writing?

Davian93
11-27-2012, 02:01 PM
You mean people trying their hardest to find ways to accuse Sanderson of bad writing?

Oops, you got lost, the White Knight discussion board is over there...

Davian93
11-27-2012, 02:03 PM
So its probably either Tuon or an Aes Sedai...I'd guess Pevara if I had to vention one.

Terez
11-27-2012, 02:03 PM
Its still bad dialogue regardless of who wrote it.
I knew you would say that. Just figured I'd set the record straight. (I don't see why it's awkward; it's just formal in a sort of odd way. Nothing wrong with being odd.)

Dom
11-27-2012, 02:07 PM
Seriously, the Knife wouldn't work at all, as, if he has it, then he got it either from Elayne or Aviendha, which would mean that at least one other person actually knows that he has it. Which in turn directly contradicts his "Nobody knew he had it. That was important." thought.


I agree. A similar argument can be made for Justice. The wording should have been more like "Nobody but him knew its true nature. It was important."

And again for Rand having the little fat man (but it's a bit weaker): he can't possibly have found it on his own without someone handing it to him, or telling him where to find it. It's odd Rand would think "Nobody knew he had it", if for e.g. Verin's letter lead him to it.

Not that I think Verin lead him to it, IRRC she isn't aware it even exists. So it has to be someone else who handed it back to him, and in this case the "nobody knew he had it" bit no longer works.

And about Justice (or its scabbard), I agree there's something unrevealed about it, but it's unlikely to be an AOL AS-made ter'angreal or san'angreal/angreal, because Rand would know this, if not necessarily its use/properties in the case of a ter'angreal. At the beginning Rand had reflections that the sword seemed to belong with him somehow, that it felt natural or something, even as he knew it was Hawkwin's sword. In TGS toward the end he reflected LTT seemed to know something about Justice he was not willing to share (some mental block.. we'll see when we know th end of it, but that knowledge was possibly very dangerous to the Light in a dark Rand's hands, as dangerous or more as letting him have the Horn of Valere and the Banner together while he was "dark".).

He simply stopped carrying Justice not long after his reflection that LTT was hiding something about it. Post-epiphany he would of course know what LTT "was hiding" - he's got free access to all the memories now, no more mental blocks - and he started carrying Justice again, Min noticed.

"hallows" and magical treasures most often come in three in myth and legend and RJ was very, very fond of triads.

With Moiraine's "bent backward" angreal (there's probably a clue to its final story purpose hidden in its description, it's a man bent backward and holding his feet with his hands, sort of a weird ourobouros representation), Callandor and the dagger ter'angreal, we might have the relevant angreal, san'angreal and ter'angreal triad.

Then there's the OP circle: Rand, Moiraine and Nynaeve.

There's the taveren triad. There's the triad of "lovers". Rand, Perrin and Egwene form a triad able to combine their efforts in TAR. Perrin has his wolves, Rand has a sword AH carried a version of in the afterworld, and Egwene's magical object could very well be her TAR ring.

And in TGH we had an unfulfilled triad: Perrin carried the Banner of the Light, Mat was the Hornsounder, but Rand got nothing. He had to be there with the Banner for the Heroes to fight, but he didn't lead the Heroes. They followed his surrogate as Heroes leader: Hawkwing. Rand didn't have Justice...

I think Justice is the third pre-AOL "magical object". LTT knows the AOL legends attached to those objects, believed like the people of his time until too late to be just that: fragments of legends. By the end he had the Banner and the sword, but the Horn had been lost. It was found again only too late, and etched by Deirdre's group with an important message, probably a foretelling that "Death was no bar to its call". Did it refer to death, to someone weirdly named Death, to the Lord of the Grave himself. They didn't know, and etched the original foretelling on the Horn itself to make sure it couldn't be lost, or corrupted. They also tried to spread it, it became the Horn's legends in the third Age.

Arthur Hawkwing had Justice, and he tried damn hard to have the Horn of Valere found in his time. A great deal of the Horn cycle originated from his times.

Post-epiphany Rand knows what LTT knows of the AOL legends surrounding "Justice", and I bet those legends connect it to the Banner, and it's why LTT was given these two antique objects and got named "The Dragon". He probably didn't believe in those legends, and never liked the title, but much like Perrin ended up doing about the Wolf Banner, he understood it was an important symbol of hope and unity to believers in those legends who wanted him to be the incarnation of some legendary Dragon (probably the Children of the Dragon... i.e.: the Da'shain Aiel). But the AOLers didn't know the legends of the Horn were connected to the legends of the Dragon (sword and banner).

Rand has learned the Banner and Horn are connected. LTT knows the Sword and Banner are connected. Rand probably puzzled out the three objects are related, but possibly not why and how at this point. He's gonna have to put together all that's known about each object, and reverse-engineer the original myth, find the missing link Moiraine was already after back in TGH.

Birgitte could help him with this, technically dead yet alive, she probably knows some of the answers. She still has some HoH knowledge Rand incarnated doesn't have. Rand doesn't yet know an Hero with still much of her "dead Hero" memories is around. He'll know the second he sees Birgitte at Elayne's side. Of course, the final answers/insights Rand might get only as he dies and becomes the sum of all Dragons since the dawn of time.

Justice blinding DF as someone proposed, an effect of Rand carrying it? Could be something like that.

Davian93
11-27-2012, 02:09 PM
I knew you would say that. Just figured I'd set the record straight. (I don't see why it's awkward; it's just formal in a sort of odd way. Nothing wrong with being odd.)

Say it out loud...its just weird. Any of the three passages (this one and the two you quoted).

Its not George Lucas level dialogue but its still blocky.

Overall though, you are right that it points to someone who is very formal in their speech...like Tuon or an Aes Sedai. Pevara is the obvious guess but perhaps a red herring.

Davian93
11-27-2012, 02:13 PM
By the end he had the Banner and the sword, but the Horn had been lost


The Sword, Banner and Horn were all gifts from Death. You see, three brothers were traveling when they came upon a river at sunset. Before crossing it, Death appeared to the brothers.


On Birgitte helping, I was under the impression that most of her memories had faded to nothingness at this point...certainly anything from AoL or earlier.

Dom
11-27-2012, 02:14 PM
Day#2.

I'm gonna go with someone (likely Pevara) talking with that Domani man at the BT telling tall tales (perhaps he now even claims his father really was Jain Farstrider and he's been to Shara with him. Pevara would know very well Jain Charin is Malkieri, not Domani).

Dom
11-27-2012, 02:24 PM
The Sword, Banner and Horn were all gifts from Death. You see, three brothers were traveling when they came upon a river at sunset. Before crossing it, Death appeared to the brothers.

I know it's extremely similar to Rowling, but Rowling and Jordan both drew heavy inspiration from the celtic folklore. The triads RJ was so fond of come from Arthuriana, the whole celtic culture and indo-european influences. Rowling didn't invent the legend of the hallows, she just re arranged it to make them boons given by Death to brothers. There are even versions of such legends connected with Arthuriana.



On Birgitte helping, I was under the impression that most of her memories had faded to nothingness at this point...certainly anything from AoL or earlier.

Again, I know. There's no evidence she's lost memories of her TAR state yet. The rules the Heroes follow, etc. I'm not suggesting she remembers the Horn-Sword-Banner from the Age (or even turning) it was made in, I'm suggesting the Heroes in TAR are connected to those objects and Birgitte might still remember scraps or hints she could give Rand. Telling Rand he is a Hero of the Horn would already be a start...

Davian93
11-27-2012, 02:26 PM
Both are very good points, Dom.

Tollingtoy
11-27-2012, 02:42 PM
Day#2.

I'm gonna go with someone (likely Pevara) talking with that Domani man at the BT telling tall tales (perhaps he now even claims his father really was Jain Farstrider and he's been to Shara with him. Pevara would know very well Jain Charin is Malkieri, not Domani).


Agreed, the skeptic in me can't help but imagine Tor employees giggling to one another after reading message board folk overanalyze minute pieces of unimportant dialogue.

But, despite that, this is pretty fun!

Dom
11-27-2012, 03:21 PM
Agreed, the skeptic in me can't help but imagine Tor employees giggling to one another after reading message board folk overanalyze minute pieces of unimportant dialogue.

But, despite that, this is pretty fun!


You can be sure they're having a lot of fun, and it's very likely several of those bits and pieces have been selected precisely for that purpose. Then, occasionally, we'll get a more meaningful bit and the fun will be that we completely miss its true relevance, or the top of the top: laughing their asses off as the person closest to the truth gets attacked from all sides for the "stupidity" of his/her suggestion...

But yeah, they love all this (not in a mean way, though, more in a Brandon sort of way). And they know we love this too...

The Angry Druid
11-27-2012, 03:51 PM
Its still bad dialogue regardless of who wrote it.

No, it's just formal. And as others have guessed, it suggests strongly an AS or a noble.

I like the Pevara guess. But Cadsuane and Tuon are possibilities as well.

greatwolf
11-27-2012, 04:22 PM
Day #1 "It had been useful at Maradon. Nobody knew he had it. That was important."

Still seems a little off. Who's this? LTT or Rand? I would expect Rand to think like a typical 3rd ager lad of twenty with three years of very atypical experiences under his belt. LTT would probably be more cultured and more eccentric. And why assume no one knows?

LTT would probably be surprised to find an angreal that escaped Ishamael's 3000year search. Or more likely suspicious of it. Rand is more likely to believe he missed it.

But still a good one from BS.

bowlwoman
11-27-2012, 04:22 PM
I always thought that Min was the scabbard for Rand's sword...

http://twitchfilm.com/assets/2012/06/scabbard_samurai_nyaff.jpg

Dom
11-27-2012, 04:23 PM
No, it's just formal. And as others have guessed, it suggests strongly an AS or a noble.

I like the Pevara guess. But Cadsuane and Tuon are possibilities as well.


If we knew the line was written by RJ, it more than strongly suggests noble or AS.

Brandon didn't respect the levels of language nearly as much, though. Not systematically anyway.

Cabadrin
11-27-2012, 06:40 PM
Another possibility is Egeanin/Leilwin, talking with Bayle Domon.

suttree
11-27-2012, 07:43 PM
You mean people trying their hardest to find ways to accuse Sanderson of bad writing?

Why in the world would anyone have to "try their hardest" to do that? The issues have been well documented, the quality is so uneven it quite literally jumps of the page at times and Team Jordan has admitted issues. Hell they changed Brandon's writing process this time around to polish up his prose and make sure they got this one "right". I certainly hope you aren't suggesting that no problems exist?

Trutino
11-27-2012, 08:20 PM
"I should like to hear one of your stories. Perhaps you could tell me of the time your father and you visited Shara?"

I'm imagining it being said by someone who, with a companion, is trapped, wounded, exhausted, waiting for torture or execution. Or being turned at the BT? Someone could be close to death and the speaker trying to keep the other person from dying until help arrives. Yes, it's very melodramatic.

Either that, or the speaker is saying it briskly and trying to startle someone into admitting that they have been to Shara. Or let the person who has been to Shara know that the speaker knows.

Great Lord of the Dark
11-27-2012, 08:28 PM
Still no takers that Olver has been bragging about his Sharan adventures to someone?

Maybe even Birgitte.

Anyway, I don't know what you're going on about Davian, it seems like perfectly non-English medieval fantasy speak to me.

Dom
11-27-2012, 08:41 PM
Another possibility is Egeanin/Leilwin, talking with Bayle Domon.

Bayle's been to Shara? I don't recall that. I thought Noal said they allow only SF traders to dock, and traders via the Aiel Waste.

Dom
11-27-2012, 08:51 PM
Still no takers that Olver has been bragging about his Sharan adventures to someone?

Maybe even Birgitte.

It's funny, and I like the fact it's an innocuous quote.

Not Birgitte, though. Birgitte would never buy it... or be so polite or formal about it (She'd know all along Olver is bullshitting her, she'd be more sarcastic, or amused at least).

It needs to be strangers Olver finds himself with. The little bugger is/was in Caemlyn (for all we know, he may now be with refugees and safe at Merrilor, but I doubt that somehow...), he might find himself among strangers/refugees, or hidden in the city with other children in some basement or something.

All those stories have gone to the boy's head. He's now convinced he's some hero out of a story.

And yeah, I could see him passing the stories Noal has filled his head with as adventures with his father...

Someone might be about to tell him "Are you taking me for a fool child, this is an episode from Jain's bloody Farstrider's book!". Oopss... Poor Olver would believe Noal has bullshitted him all the way passing as his own stories from a book... until Thom/Mats tells him Noal was Jain.

It sounds way too formal for another kid hidden from Shadowspawn in some dark corner of Caemlyn to ask Olver for stories.

Aes Sedai and Olver caught in Caemlyn? Hmmm... what about those at the Silver Swan? Where are they, by the way - no sign of them so far in the battle of Caemlyn?

Cabadrin
11-28-2012, 12:59 AM
Bayle's been to Shara? I don't recall that. I thought Noal said they allow only SF traders to dock, and traders via the Aiel Waste.

With his father. This would be a long time ago. Bayle is not a storyteller, but he might tell his wife about his youthful adventures. He and his father may have been shipwrecked and picked up by a SF ship bound for Shara.

GonzoTheGreat
11-28-2012, 04:30 AM
For the second: Mat Cauthon chatting with Artur Hawkwing during a lull in the fighting.

Terez
11-28-2012, 07:22 AM
I somehow read that as 'cheating'. And I was thinking, what's to say Tuon wouldn't like that?

Davian93
11-28-2012, 07:29 AM
I somehow read that as 'cheating'. And I was thinking, what's to say Tuon wouldn't like that?

That's true...and Mat does have experience with that sort of thing. I think we all remember that special part of tEotW where Mat showed Rand his Ruby-Pommeled Dagger.

Terez
11-28-2012, 07:36 AM
Yes, and he was very insulted when Rand suggested he sell it.

Davian93
11-28-2012, 07:38 AM
Yes, and he was very insulted when Rand suggested he sell it.

Mat has some self-respect afterall. He's not going to just whore himself out on the streets of Whitebridge. He's a romantic.

Terez
11-28-2012, 07:45 AM
You know, every time you mention the ruby-tipped dagger (which is quite often), I think your penis must look like a dog's or something.

Davian93
11-28-2012, 07:47 AM
You know, every time you mention the ruby-tipped dagger (which is quite often), I think your penis must look like a dog's or something.

LOL...no, its a pretty standard human one.

maacaroni
11-28-2012, 08:24 AM
It's the bullshitting Asha'man.

What's his name?

That's who that quote is referring to. The one whose Dad was a spy with the Tinkers...

WinespringBrother
11-28-2012, 11:07 AM
Day 3

"Being married is not so bad, Perrin. Why didn't you tell me it was not so bad? I think I am rather fond of it."

Definitely Loial!

GonzoTheGreat
11-28-2012, 11:16 AM
Could be Rand, of course. Or Elayne, for that matter.

Terez
11-28-2012, 11:17 AM
I was thinking Mat. But then, it wouldn't make much sense in the context of their recent meeting.

Res_Ipsa
11-28-2012, 11:27 AM
Day 3



Definitely Loial!

Yeah I agree, the second sentence is all Loial. The third sentence is odd though, does not sound like him.

Davian93
11-28-2012, 11:34 AM
Yeah I agree, the second sentence is all Loial. The third sentence is odd though, does not sound like him.

So probably Loial then as written by BS.

suttree
11-28-2012, 11:36 AM
I concur on Loial....

lsm
11-28-2012, 11:37 AM
Yeah I agree, the second sentence is all Loial. The third sentence is odd though, does not sound like him.

won't this be the first time brandon writes loial? so odd, but close enough that it's more than likely him

how are the ogier supposed to get to the FM in time? or wherever the last battle is going to be?

Davian93
11-28-2012, 11:41 AM
won't this be the first time brandon writes loial? so odd, but close enough that it's more than likely him

how are the ogier supposed to get to the FM in time? or wherever the last battle is going to be?

Maybe they'll use the Ways...

GonzoTheGreat
11-28-2012, 11:48 AM
how are the ogier supposed to get to the FM in time? or wherever the last battle is going to be?
Steam wagons. They are Demandred's surprise. The only detail Demandred had forgotten about was getting them on his side. But apart from that his plan worked perfectly.

Terez
11-28-2012, 11:57 AM
It's not like we have any idea what they have been up to; they might already be on the way.

lsm
11-28-2012, 12:01 PM
that's true. there's been close to 3 months since the battle at the manor and besides didn't the elder volunteer to close the rest of the ways, so he must have travelling

Dom
11-28-2012, 12:57 PM
I was thinking Mat. But then, it wouldn't make much sense in the context of their recent meeting.


Also, Mat never met the married Perrin before he married himself.

I thought of Loial to Perrin too.

When Rand realizes he can't strike at SG the day after Merrilor as planned, he's gonna have to address all sort of problems he meant to deal with only after Shai'tan was sealed.

One of those relates to the Waygates. Rand needs the Ogier.

I think he will send Perrin for Loial at the Great Stump. Perrin will come (or send for) Traveling resources. The arrival of Perrin to meet Loial at Tsofu during the Great Stump with fulfill the viewing of Perrin and trees, IMO.

Mimi
11-28-2012, 01:14 PM
I also think it is Loial.

However I can just see Thom saying it to Perrin (of course after Thom and Morrine are marred by Rand), while stroking his mustache and trying to hide that he is laughing.. espically if Perrin and Faile just finished a loud discussion.

Terez
11-28-2012, 01:19 PM
Also, Mat never met the married Perrin before he married himself.
Yes, but Mat hasn't really had a chance to experience being married yet, unless you count his grudging self-control with other women. :)

Dom
11-28-2012, 01:39 PM
Yes, but Mat hasn't really had a chance to experience being married yet, unless you count his grudging self-control with other women. :)

?? Maybe I don't understand a subtlety of the line or something, but it seems obvious it has to be said by someone who's met Perrin & Faile married before he/she married himself/herself.

Why should Mat comment to Perrin he should have told him marrying was nice?

Aside from Loial I thought maybe Rand, but given their chapter one exchange it would be odd.

Otherwise it's hard to see. Loial's the one who made all sort of comments about marriage to Perrin before. Well, there's Berelain and Morgase too, but somehow I think a comment like this to Perrin would be rather odd from either of those two!

Of course for all we know, this could be from Will al'Seen or one of those new TR nobodies Brandon's fond to clutter Perrin's entourage with (couldn't Maria have made him a list of existing minor players with a few points about previous appearances/interactions etc. so Brandon could pick one who fitted instead of creating cardboard stand-ins on the go he returned to name weirdly in further drafts? Oh well, maybe the Sulin affair traumatized him...)

Tsofu
11-28-2012, 01:39 PM
Anyone else sign up for the updates and (like me) still not getting them? I've verified (twice) that I signed up but nada...

Tsofu

Terez
11-28-2012, 01:52 PM
?? Maybe I don't understand a subtlety of the line or something, but it seems obvious it has to be said by someone who's met Perrin & Faile married before he/she married himself/herself.
Likely, yes, but not entirely obvious. Mat is a special case. As I said before, I don't believe Mat makes much sense, mostly because Perrin already told Mat how great being married is (it's probably Loial), but there is a difference between getting married and then spending every day with your wife, and getting married and then sending your wife back to Ebou Dar while you go elsewhere. You're not really experiencing it much when you do that, and I'm not just talking about the sex. ;)

Khoram
11-28-2012, 02:48 PM
Anyone else sign up for the updates and (like me) still not getting them? I've verified (twice) that I signed up but nada...

Tsofu

Yep. But I figured I'd get the updates here anyways. ;)

Although it sucks that I'm not getting them. :(

Dom
11-28-2012, 03:28 PM
Likely, yes, but not entirely obvious. Mat is a special case. As I said before, I don't believe Mat makes much sense, mostly because Perrin already told Mat how great being married is (it's probably Loial), but there is a difference between getting married and then spending every day with your wife, and getting married and then sending your wife back to Ebou Dar while you go elsewhere. You're not really experiencing it much when you do that, and I'm not just talking about the sex. ;)

I see. You're right (in all respects, inc. it's possible but not very likely). I suspect Mat won't have much opportunities to discover the joys of marital life with a wife surrounded by ambitious rivals, assassins, the Shadow at their door, and the Empress planning a final strike on the WT.

He may not have a good time in the south altogether - the viewings/dreams etc. we have left for Mat often seem rather unpleasant.

WinespringBrother
11-28-2012, 03:58 PM
Yep. But I figured I'd get the updates here anyways. ;)

Although it sucks that I'm not getting them. :(

I didn't get the first day's memory, but I got the last 2 memories after emailing Irene Gallo (irene.gallo@tor.com) to let her know and she fixed it rather quickly.

David Selig
11-28-2012, 05:00 PM
Anyone else sign up for the updates and (like me) still not getting them? I've verified (twice) that I signed up but nada...

Tsofu
I didn't get the first two, but I followed the instruction of Tor's Irene Gallo explained here (http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/11/spoiler-thread-for-the-memories-of-light#305217) and now I got the third one in time.

Terez
11-28-2012, 06:59 PM
By the way, I meant to comment on this earlier. I know I have commented on the same argument before at RAFO, but I'm guessing Dom ignored me. :D
At the beginning Rand had reflections that the sword seemed to belong with him somehow, that it felt natural or something, even as he knew it was Hawkwin's sword.
The context explicitly implies that Rand thought it seemed made for him because of the dragons on the scabbard, and it also implies that the scabbard was at least as old as Hawkwing.

He relaxed his hand on his sword, though he did not release it. He fingered the cloth-tied hilt. The weapon was long, slightly curved, and the lacquered scabbard was painted with a long, sinuous dragon of red and gold. It looked as if it had been designed specifically for Rand—and yet it was centuries old, unearthed only recently. How odd, that they should find this now, he thought, and make a gift of it to me, completely unaware of what they were holding. . . .
Presumably, Rand was able to recognize it from the scabbard (and hilt), since otherwise it wouldn't be much different from the other Power-wrought swords made in the Age of Legends. But it wasn't; the recognizable design (such as it is) is centuries old. (The blade is thousands of years old, and Rand knows it.)

In TGS toward the end he reflected LTT seemed to know something about Justice he was not willing to share...
That was actually in Min's POV. She thought that Rand knew something about the sword that he wasn't sharing. Presumably that refers to the fact that it's Hawkwing's sword, which apparently no one else knows about.

He stood, reaching for the sword which leaned against his clothing chest. The black scabbard, with its lacquered red and gold dragon, sparkled in the light. Such a strange weapon those scholars had found beneath the submerged statue. The sword felt so old. Was Rand wearing it today as a symbol of something? A sign, perhaps, that he was riding to battle?

"You're going after her, aren't you?" Min found herself asking. "Graendal."

"I have to fix what problems I can," Rand said, pulling the ancient sword from the sheath and checking the blade. There was no heron mark, but the fine steel blade glistened in the lamplight, showing the undulating lines of its folded metal. It had been Power-forged, he claimed. He seemed to know things about it he did not share.
Also, Rand made it clear enough that he didn't recognize the sword from Lews Therin's memories.

Tollingtoy
11-28-2012, 07:15 PM
My first thought on this one was that it was obviously Mat, but after thinking a bit more I agree that it is definitely Loial......Sanderson writes Mat pretty poorly, but even he wouldn't have Mat speaking that dialogue

Dom
11-28-2012, 08:03 PM
I know I have commented on the same argument before at RAFO, but I'm guessing Dom ignored me.

:P I can't there, not that I would . I must have stopped reading the thread. I do that a lot at RAFO.

The context explicitly implies that Rand thought it seemed made for him because of the dragons on the scabbard, and it also implies that the scabbard was at least as old as Hawkwing./QUOTE]


I remember this. I've theorized at the time of TGS - well, for the second bit after Brandon for a reason I still don't understand spoiled the fact it was that Justice - that the sword and scabbard were once in the hands of Guaire Amalasan, and Hawkwing took them from him as he defeated him, and he renamed the sword Justice. A trophy.

That would explain why the scabbard bears the creature which even today's Aes Sedai know to be associated to LTT's banner (descriptions or pictures must exist in some books). Amalasan had done some research, his banner had the AOL AS symbol (but he had it on blue rather than red. Logain reproduced Amalasan's banner).

You're right Rand's comments that it seemed to have been made for him comes from the dragon sigil, it's pretty explicit.

Just a sentence later though, there's also emphasis put on the fact the sword felt right beneath Rand's fingers.

[QUOTE]Presumably, Rand was able to recognize it from the scabbard (and hilt), since otherwise it wouldn't be much different from the other Power-wrought swords made in the Age of Legends. But it wasn't; the recognizable design (such as it is) is centuries old. (The blade is thousands of years old, and Rand knows it.)

I still don't think it was made in the AOL, but you must be right Rand recognized it from the hilt or scabbard. We don't have a proper description of the blade or hilt. It seems fairly similar to blademaster blades for sure, though Rand has not commented on it being just like his other swords.

That was actually in Min's POV. She thought that Rand knew something about the sword that he wasn't sharing. Presumably that refers to the fact that it's Hawkwing's sword, which apparently no one else knows about.

Oh, that's just great. I read TGS twice, and mistook a Min POV for a Rand one twice!!

Also, Rand made it clear enough that he didn't recognize the sword from Lews Therin's memories.

It's weirdly put, though. Rand comments he recognized the sword "not, oddly, from LTT's memories - but his own.".

It's not too clear why Rand should find it odd it's with his memories from Falme he recognized the sword. If this were RJ, this wording would imply Rand knew LTT recognized the sword, but he recognized it first from Falme.

But with Brandon it might have meant that for once Rand recognized something old by himself.

There should be nothing odd about LTT not having memories from Falme.

It's possible the blade is simply LTT's from the AOL, lost then eventually passing in Amalasan's hands (and getting a scabbard) taken by Hawkwing who made it Justice and finally returning to its proper owner.

But there's something about Justice. It's odd RJ had only the banner and Horn linked, he usually did triads.

Terez
11-28-2012, 08:34 PM
:P I can't there, not that I would . I must have stopped reading the thread. I do that a lot at RAFO.

The context explicitly implies that Rand thought it seemed made for him because of the dragons on the scabbard, and it also implies that the scabbard was at least as old as Hawkwing.I remember this. I've theorized at the time of TGS - well, for the second bit after Brandon for a reason I still don't understand spoiled the fact it was that Justice - that the sword and scabbard were once in the hands of Guaire Amalasan, and Hawkwing took them from him as he defeated him, and he renamed the sword Justice.
I theorized that too, and in fact I'm pretty sure that was how I explained to you at the time that it made sense that dragons were on the scabbard. (If I recall, you and Linda both were saying that was part of why it was probably Lews Therin's sword.)

A trophy.

That would explain why the scabbard bears the creature which even today's Aes Sedai know to be associated to LTT's banner (descriptions or pictures must exist in some books). Amalasan had done some research, his banner had the AOL AS symbol (but he had it on blue rather than red. Logain reproduced Amalasan's banner).
The BWB even says there were rumors (which even Hawkwing denied so therefore they must not be true!) that they had a duel after Amalasan was captured. The BWB's explanation for why this could not possibly be true was that Amalasan could channel, as if they didn't have to shield him to capture him.

You're right Rand's comments that it seemed to have been made for him comes from the dragon sigil, it's pretty explicit.

Just a sentence later though, there's also emphasis put on the fact the sword felt right beneath Rand's fingers.
That might just be a bit of a Brandonism. Maybe it feels right because it's Justice as opposed to a traitor's sword.

Oh, that's just great. I read TGS twice, and mistook a Min POV for a Rand one twice!!
:D

It's weirdly put, though. Rand comments he recognized the sword "not, oddly, from LTT's memories - but his own.".
This is another thing I talked about back during the original Justice debates. It's odd because Rand is oddly accustomed to having ancient memories, and recognizing things and people that normal people can't recognize. It's odd for him to recognize such a thing from his own memories as opposed to Lews Therin's.

It's not too clear why Rand should find it odd it's with his memories from Falme he recognized the sword. If this were RJ, this wording would imply Rand knew LTT recognized the sword, but he recognized it first from Falme.
I'm not so sure that's true. I never considered that the wording meant anything other than what I said above. Though of course RJ would probably have written it differently.

It's possible the blade is simply LTT's from the AOL, lost then eventually passing in Amalasan's hands (and getting a scabbard) taken by Hawkwing who made it Justice and finally returning to its proper owner.
It's possible, but unlikely, not only because Rand didn't recognize it from Lews Therin's memories, but also because it doesn't have a heron mark. Lews Therin, being the number one general during the War, would have had a heron-mark blade. Be'lal also gave himself a heron mark blade, and he was considered a 'more than adequate' general, so that makes sense.

eht slat meit
11-28-2012, 09:17 PM
It's weirdly put, though. Rand comments he recognized the sword "not, oddly, from LTT's memories - but his own.".

Not that strange - LTT's memories contain his work/combat with Sammael in "reinventing" the art of swordplay in lethal combat. He's been around swords most of his life, first as a fencing weapon, then as a true weapon. Rand has a bunch of farmboy memories, and his experience with swords can be summed up in about three or four special swords Not a small thing, but hardly a storied history of swordplay.

Terez
11-28-2012, 10:58 PM
Lews Therin's experience with swords has nothing to do with it. And Rand's experience was 1) to kill a Trolloc the first time he picked up a sword, 2) to be trained by the world's greatest blademaster, 3) to defeat a blademaster after only a few months of training, 4) to give Be'lal a good fight in TDR, 5) to train with the world's greatest blademaster again, 6) to practice against the five best swordsmen in the vicinity of Caemlyn daily, 7) to give another blademaster a run for his money in ACOS, and 8) to instinctively reach for his sword when he feels endangered, even after over two years of channeling and having lost a hand. Your explanation might make sense in earlier books, but it's incomprehensible in TGS.

rand
11-28-2012, 10:59 PM
My guesses:
Day #1 "It had been useful at Maradon. Nobody knew he had it. That was important."
Padan Fain, talking about the invisibility cloak he'd used to spy on the city.

Day #2 "I should like to hear one of your stories. Perhaps you could tell me of the time your father and you visited Shara?"
Thom to Moiraine

Day #3 "Being married is not so bad, Perrin. Why didn't you tell me it was not so bad? I think I am rather fond of it."
Faile to Perrin

Terez
11-28-2012, 11:00 PM
Thom to Moiraine
Good one.

Random Man
11-28-2012, 11:06 PM
I'm calling #3 for Loial. He spent so much time going on about how horrible it would be to be married -- to Perrin as well as others -- because he feared he would lose any ability to do anything on his own and be stuck in a Stedding doing nothing of significance...then when he is made to marry Erith in KOD, the first thing his new wife does is assert his right to address the Great Stump.

I see this snippet coming in the middle of a rambling, long-winded explanation of what he'd been up to and he mentions that Erith stood up for his right to speak or stood up for him to participate in the Last Battle or whatnot -- "why didn't you tell me a wife will have your back? I didn't think that would happen but it's kind of awesome -- so anyway here we are."

The Angry Druid
11-28-2012, 11:10 PM
I concur on Loial for #3. Excited that the Ogier are back into the story. We know Loial carries the day at the Stump, and we may have long handles on the axes.

Random Man
11-28-2012, 11:17 PM
I can't help but wonder if there will be a split among the Ogier. Some decide to stay and fight and the rest open the Book of Translation and leave. Perhaps they send away enough of them to repopulate when the Wheel turns around again, while those who stay fight to ensure the Wheel keeps turning.

Alternatively, the cowards who flee end up being the ones to keep the Ogier alive at the expense of the brave who stay, who will never rejoin their kind and their lines will die out even if they survive.

eht slat meit
11-29-2012, 01:19 AM
I'm not sure why you think Rand's months of exposure and training is in any way comparable to LTT's centuries of not just exposure, but integral role in developing the deadly art that it became, and probably the creation power-wrought swords as well. Comparing the two sets of memories that Rand possesses, it's clear the former would have a better chance of exposing him to a greater variety of blades, and it would be surprising to him to have his most recent set of memories be the culprit it recognizing the weapon. Probability based on the amount of exposure.

We're talking about his range of life experiences in each set of memories here, not his level of talent. Sure he's a badass now, but that's neither here nor there as to whether he would have been exposed to a greater number of weapons in his current incarnation as compared to his old.

Terez
11-29-2012, 01:34 AM
I'm not sure why you think Rand's months of exposure and training is in any way comparable...
Stop right there, because you're missing the point entirely.

Menthu
11-29-2012, 01:38 AM
Day #2

on an other Forums visitors speculated, that this line comes from some part of the epilogue, where some (maybe even yet unknown) person asks one of Rand's children.

I find the epilogue idea quite good, but I'm not in for the actual persons. Could also be Loial's son, as we all know, Loial tends to like travelling.

Day #3

Here I'm with the bandwagon and would also put my bet into the Loial bucket.

Dom
11-29-2012, 07:03 AM
in any way comparable to LTT's centuries

What centuries?

Davian93
11-29-2012, 07:08 AM
What centuries?

My guess would be he's referring to the fact that LTT was 400 years old when he died...though how much of that time was actually devoted to swordplay is up for debate.

On another note: RJ never would have told us the sword was Justice...he would have made us figure it out ourselves and given us a bunch of RAFOs to speculate on.

Daekyras
11-29-2012, 09:54 AM
On another note: RJ never would have told us the sword was Justice...he would have made us figure it out ourselves and given us a bunch of RAFOs to speculate on.

I hear he was "eight feet tall and shot lightning bolts out of his arse!"

Dom
11-29-2012, 10:44 AM
I theorized that too, and in fact I'm pretty sure that was how I explained to you at the time that it made sense that dragons were on the scabbard. (If I recall, you and Linda both were saying that was part of why it was probably Lews Therin's sword.)

It's too far for me to be sure, but I know Linda and me argued from the start about the sword, interpreting differently the quotes. I think she argued it was LTT's and it was why Rand was saying that "oddly he's the one who recognized it", but I'm not certain.

All I remember for sure was very much against the idea it was Justice at first, until you (I'm almost positive it was you) threw into the mix the theory it had been found in the water beneath the Hawkwing statue beneath the abandoned stedding. That's the argument that made me reconsider it all. How events unfolded in TGS also got out of the way my other objections (once the developments between Rand and Tuon had gone just as badly as I was convinced it would, and Tuon was more determined than ever to complete the Return, I didn't mind so much the sword being Justice :D).

As far as I remember, my first idea reading the chapter was Amalasan's sword (with or without a filiation to LTT), because I had just heavily researched everything we knew concerning the area for the pre-TGS Arad Doman/Almoth Plain article and map at the 13th D.. I even remember my line of arguing (which went against the sword being Justice) that Amalasan's sword made sense since he was born and proclaimed himself in those parts and his original followers might have hidden it there, and it seemed a better twist that Rand got the sword of Hawkwing's foe right before he had a face-off of some kind with Tuon (I even toyed with the idea it's Graendal who sent it to him, IRRC). As usual, I'm a bit too eager to fits new things in scenarios that don't contradict my conviction (it borders obsession, it's one of very few things I've rarely wavered about since joining forums, so when TPOD came out): Rand/WT and the Seanchan would remain enemies until the middle of the LB.

I'm not too sure why I thought that (might have to do with all the theories at RAFO I was the champion-attacker of that defused the Seanchan conflict over TGS), but Justice spoke to me of early resolution

While I prefer the notion Justice is older than Rand believes, I know there is another way to make my perceived triad work, in which only the Horn is ancient, and the Banner is from the AOL, and Justice made in the AOL but only significant in the third Age: Mat the Hornsounder (less likely Fortuona herself) is meant to wield that sword in the RW when Hawkwing comes wielding the TAR version of it. The object doesn't have to be magical in and of itself: who knows what could happen when TAR Justice and RW Justice suddenly co-exist?

That would fit the three objects requirements without making them all ancient like the Horn.

If Rand and the Way of the Leaf/the Aiel play a role in averting the Seanchan vs. rest war post TG, the symbolism of Justice itself becomes interesting: the sword of Hawkwing, sheathed/sleeping in a Dragon scabbard. It's not destroyed, ready to be unsheathed in the Light's name if remnants of the Shadow threaten, but it's a sword guarding the Light, not meant for conquest and glory.

As for the rationale behind Fortuona/Mat becoming Rand's "heirs", so to speak, it's fairly simple: what is happening in Seanchan now seems fairly "dark", and remnants of the Shadow, whatever they are, are very likely to flee the Westlands after Tarmon Gai'don is lost.

Rand's role in eradicating the Shadow will be over once Shai'tan is dealt with, but Fortuona/Mat may take over his role to end the new horrors Shai'tan's surviving followers will set up. That would be the big warning Aviendha's possible future sent: Aiel have not renounced warrior culture, and the Seanchan are still aimed at the wrong foes.

5-10 years after TG, the alliances may be all in place and Fortuona's ready to start that campaign on the continent where most of the more powerful "villains" have fled: her home. Fortuona is really the character who represents the best Latra Posae in the story. She makes Egwene look like a wannabe.

Fortuona's thematic role might be to bring the WT to renounce its vision of the Amyrlin as a ruler above the rulers now Shai'tan isn't anymore a threat looming over humanity. It was justified in the WOS to give such dictatorial powers to LTT, justified for Latra Posae to inherit them, and the KC legitimize the WT not returning to the pre-WOS state of affairs and perpetuating the notion the Amyrlin stood above everybody else. In a post-Shadow world, it's far less justified the Amyrlin doesn't return to a role more in line with that of her pre-WOS predecessor.

Depending how the final pieces of the puzzle fall in place, it's not impossible the army of channelers Tuon has at her side by then is for all intent and purpose an enlarged "Red Ajah" dedicated like her to eradicating the threat of rogue channellers, composed of a mix of old Reds and new Reds who were once ex-sul'dam/damane who agreed to still follow her.

Brandon has (perhaps, it's not verbatim) hinted that Elaida might be involved in the outriggers.

People argue a lot the Reds will remain around with the new purpose of dealing with rogue channellers - and Pevara's recent thoughts makes it even more likely, but the Ajah is way too large for such a purpose in the Westlands in the long term (even if dozens and dozens from the BA and Taim's faction remain around). If they flee and join what's already going on in Seanchan, trying to set up their rival empires and all. History would repeat itself, it's strongly hinted in the series it's how it happened the last time.

It fits with Hawkwing's themes too. He wasn't trying to conquer and set himself up as Emperor. It happened because he rose to deal with Guaire Amalasan the Tower was failing to defeat (did Bonhwin let that happen to rekindle fear of male channellers? Not impossible...) and it's the rogue actions of an Amyrlin that planted the seeds for an Empire, and his vision of the WT as "rogue" (with huge help from Ishamael to shape those, and Ishamael was likely working in concert with his BA around Bonwhin...).

I think we should ask the question why the Pattern needs a culture so dedicated to the eradication of rogue channellers. For now they consider all of them rogue, but this may change. What can't possibly change is the Seanchan accepting abuses by channellers, however. There's even a pale shadow of this Paendrag attitude in Berelain and how unforgiving she's been of Annoura's little misstep (liking involving a lot of words twisting and no straight answer about what she was doing meddling with Masema with the WO).

The BWB even says there were rumors (which even Hawkwing denied so therefore they must not be true!) that they had a duel after Amalasan was captured. The BWB's explanation for why this could not possibly be true was that Amalasan could channel, as if they didn't have to shield him to capture him.

That I remember you brought up to the original discussions. You may be quite right you're the one who originally found the way to fold the Justice theory into the Amalasan (with or without LTT) theories.


That might just be a bit of a Brandonism. Maybe it feels right because it's Justice as opposed to a traitor's sword.

Possibly. We were also still in the part of the story when Rand still had his wrong conception of his real role. He still saw himself as a kind of Emperor (in fact it was at its peak), and perhaps his thoughts more explicitly ran along the lines of "I have to bring the Seanchan under my rule like everybody else, and how fitting this sword, the sword of the founder of their dynasty, came to me at this precise juncture. There's a dragon on its scabbard, as if it's been designed all along for me. Yeah, it feels right beneath my fingers. I will have my way, they'll bend to my will. Hawkwing's sword has come to me, it's a sign."

With post-epiphany Rand, no longer "a tyrant- usurper-dictator", conscious not to repeat LTT's mistakes of having tried to fill too many pair of shoes at once (and failing at his real role of Champion in the end), and determined to give back to everyone agreeing to step up and fill their duties/responsabilities their rightful places and roles, the door is wide open for him to give Hawkwing's sword to Mat or Fortuona, down the line.

The last parts of TGS and TOM have set things up for Rand to have changed his views about the Seanchan, but he's not going to find much support because in parallel things have evolved to stir very strong opposition to the Seanchan.

Perrin's the one closest to the thinking that a temporary alliance for TG with the Seanchan is possible.

The likes of Elayne, Egwene, Berelain, probably Darlin, and the Aiel, and Roedran won't stand for it any time soon.

I think this is roughly how Merrilor will go: on day 1 Rand will with difficulties convince most to adopt his plan of striking at SG the next day, by passing all the unsolvable problems like the Seanchan in their back, the BT, Demandred's strategies to have their forces scatter back to their cities to defend them.

Because Merrilor isn't fulfilling the Aelfinn's winning conditions, the Pattern won't give him the solution for the Bore, and this is what Egwene's Dream warned about.

Rand will get very desperate, his allies waiting his signal to strike, knowing if he comes out and tells them he still has no plan the alliance will fall apart. He's tempted to gamble everything, to go to SG and trust the Pattern will give him the solution there, but he knows Egwene made AS help conditional to approval of his plan for the Bore. Impasse.

Moiraine will arrive to prevent an unilateral strike from Rand. She's the one who will solve the Aelfinn riddle when Rand tells her about it (West-East refer to the continents, South-North to the "gatherings"). Then Rand will know he needs the Seanchan to come north, and know Mat's gone to accomplish this. When Mat returns, he will strike. But that means on day 2 Rand will have to deal with all the problems his early strike plan let him bypass... incl. announcing to his allies the Seanchan need to ally with them.

By then, either Egwene will have put in motion her scheme with Egeanin to destroy the Seanchan and can't call it back (oops!), or in a more divisive scenario, Egwene and perhaps rulers (a group opposed to the Seanchan, the membership is quite a RAFO) won't agree to trust Rand/Perrin/Moiraine, and will initiate the secret scheme to destroy Tuon's rule.

I'm not so sure that's true. I never considered that the wording meant anything other than what I said above. Though of course RJ would probably have written it differently.

Yes, that's what I think. I'm not convinced RJ would have hidden it's Justice in the first place. I understand quite well why Brandon could have decided to do this in the context of three books, but much less in the context of one book. It dilutes quite a bit the whole thing. It's much stronger when the reader knows the sword represents the power struggle between Rand and Tuon, and its dragon-scabbard is enough of a mystery to give the readers to chew on. Knowing its Justice, it makes the outcome of the encounter between Rand and Tuon even more surprising. You expect even more it will solve the problem one way or the other (the Seanchan agree to Rand's alliance, or Rand agrees to serve Tuon and gives her the sword) and that Justice is the sword on the Seanchan's woman back in Egwene's Dream, so Tuon must get it, somehow. It reinforces the whole arc with symbolism. After that it doesn't matter, it all goes downhill and the gulf only widens. You forget Rand has Justice as it no longer seems possible any alliance will come, and Justice returns in the third act, with the Seanchan with a sword being Tuon and Mat with Justice.


It's possible, but unlikely, not only because Rand didn't recognize it from Lews Therin's memories, but also because it doesn't have a heron mark. Lews Therin, being the number one general during the War, would have had a heron-mark blade. Be'lal also gave himself a heron mark blade, and he was considered a 'more than adequate' general, so that makes sense.

Assuming Justice lacks a heron (very likely because not mentionned yet, but uncertain), and that Lan is right that officers in the AOL had herons (it may be instead that the much rarer heron-marked blades were pre-WOS blades of fencing masters - a symbol of perfect balance. Aes Sedai may not have bothered putting herons on the WOS-era military blades which were weapons, not sportive blades). Whether LTT had a heron-marked blade or not becomes then a matter of deciding if he was a pre-WOS fencer like Sammael (who did it professionally), or if he merely picked it up in the early WOS when developping all warfare/combat techniques they could think of.

But the lack of herons was one of the reasons that made me think Justice predates the WOS (it doesn't have to be pre-AOL, just not a sword made for warfare originally), in the event Lan's knowledge it's officer blades is right.

Terez
11-29-2012, 11:06 AM
"Pass his bond to me."

Well, it's not Myrelle and Nynaeve. :D Alanna maybe?

Boli
11-29-2012, 11:07 AM
Moiraine to Alanna is my persona theory :)

fionwe1987
11-29-2012, 11:08 AM
Todays memory:

"Pass his bond to me."

I have no clue who this could be, though I think its almost certain the "he" is Rand.

Thoughts?

lsm
11-29-2012, 11:09 AM
Moiraine to Alanna is my persona theory :)

sounds right. not that many more male bonded characters that are really relevant right, and which female who has bonded can be asked that

Great Lord of the Dark
11-29-2012, 11:11 AM
Nynaeve speaking to Aviendha, Elayne and Min, just before Rand goes to Shayol Ghul.

Terez
11-29-2012, 11:11 AM
Oh, it could be anybody; it need not be Rand. But I do like the idea of Elayne being forced under duress to pass Rand's bond to a Darkfriend. She still has the red-hot (or is it white-hot?) iron and the axe to contend with.

fionwe1987
11-29-2012, 11:12 AM
Oh, it could be anybody; it need not be Rand. But I do like the idea of Elayne being forced under duress to pass Rand's bond to a Darkfriend. She still has the red-hot (or is it white-hot?) iron and the axe to contend with.
I like this idea, but the issue is that to pass the bond, they'd need to let Elayne channel, which will only lead to disastrous consequences for them.

GonzoTheGreat
11-29-2012, 11:14 AM
"Pass his bond to me."
Egwene to Alanna.

missbee
11-29-2012, 11:17 AM
How about Cyndanne to Alanna?

That could be how she got into Rand's dream in TOM epilogue

Res_Ipsa
11-29-2012, 11:21 AM
Egwene to Alanna.

Oh gosh, that would be bad.

For the Messiah Rand thinkers, shouldn't that be "pass His bond to me."

My own thoughts, maybe we finally get to see our gay channeler taking Rand's bond from Alanna?

Rocky Outcrop
11-29-2012, 11:28 AM
Hey all, first post here, ho ho, wonderful.

Read this one to my bro. I was thinking it must be Moiraine and Allana, as you guys have thought. As soon as my bro heard it he said "Moiraine and Nyneave"

:eek:

Good idea, says I. Jealous much, Moiraine?

Dom
11-29-2012, 11:34 AM
Day 4:

"Pass his bond to me."

Interesting, and probably the most "difficult" so far. The quotes so far are well picked... I wonder if Brandon was involved (it's his style).

This one could refer to a huge number of possible players...

I won't try to pick one, but here are some coming to mind:

- Alanna's bond passing to Moiraine or Nynaeve.
- Alanna's bond passing to someone new the Shadow doesn't know about.
- Alanna resurfacing from her hiding place now the BA purge has happened succesfully, instructed by Verin to go to Egwene and tell her of her bond. Egwene asks for Rand's bond.

- Moiraine offering Nynaeve to join Lan with a large group of sisters, so Nynaeve can stay to the end at Rand's side, and offering her to take back Lan's bond for now.

- Moiraine asking Alanna for Rand's bond.
- Nynaeve asking Alanna for Rand's bond.
- One of these two or Egwene asking Elayne for Rand's bond.

- Someone demanding Androl's bond from Pevara (Tarna, Javindrah etc.)
- A shadow player demanding Rand's bond from a compelled Alanna.
- Demandred demanding Rand's bond from a compelled Elayne or Alanna.

- Someone offering an Aes Sedai worried for her warder and about to place herself in great danger to take her warder's bond.

- Someone (eg: Cadsuane) asking Gabrelle or Toveine for Logain's bond after Logain and one of his AS got captured at the BT.

- Someone asking for Naeff's bond.

Etc.

The category I think most likely is X asking/offering Alanna to take Rand's bond. I'd lean more toward this being related to the fact the Shadow knows of Alanna's bond to Rand.

If I really, really had to pick, I'd guess I'd pick Egwene as the most likely person to ever ask Alanna for Rand's bond. Nynaeve or Moiraine would ask to bond Rand if they had any valid reason to be bonded to him for endgame purposes, Egwene is probably the most likely to wish for a bond to Rand she cannot possibly ever get by asking to bond him. She could even ask Elayne for hers when she learns of it (Elayne would flatly refuse), but asking Alanna seems more likely.

Arranging for Alanna's bond to pass to Egwene if she lead the Tower and dealt with the BA sounds Verin-like somehow. Her faith/trust in Rand never reached Moiraine's, for instance. It could also happen this way: Alanna returns to Egwene now she's got proof the Purge happened, and tells her she has a bond to Rand and must pass it to someone the Shadow doesn't know about. Egwene can't resist the temptation to ask it for herself.

Verin arranging for Cadsuane to get Alanna's bond is an alternative, but I just can't see Cadsuane accepting it now, let alone asking Alanna for it.

The foreshadowing is none too clear. There are possible clues maybe Alanna would be asked to pass the bond eventually. There are clues Cadsuane might eventually get an Asha'man's bond, or bond one, and the hints about Cadsuane getting Rand's seem to be a red-herring - good before the epiphany, but not something the chastised/humbled Cadsuane would even consider anymore (and she had strong fears even then), knowing the disastrous situation it would place her in with Rand.

fionwe1987
11-29-2012, 11:40 AM
I really don't see Cadsuane ever doing this. Her feelings on this seem strong. Nor do I see Egwene asking for Rand's bond. What would be the purpose?

Dom
11-29-2012, 11:40 AM
I like this idea, but the issue is that to pass the bond, they'd need to let Elayne channel, which will only lead to disastrous consequences for them.

Not if she's under compulsion at the time....

David Selig
11-29-2012, 11:41 AM
Do the Forsaken even know a bond can be passed? The Warder bond is a Third Age invention and passing it is something the Aes Sedai do very rarely...

Dom
11-29-2012, 11:41 AM
I really don't see Cadsuane ever doing this. Her feelings on this seem strong. Nor do I see Egwene asking for Rand's bond. What would be the purpose?

Keeping tabs on Rand in the LB, and not wishing the bond to pass to anyone who can use it to meddle when she's the one with authority to deal with Rand.

Dom
11-29-2012, 11:43 AM
Do the Forsaken even know a bond can be passed? The Warder bond is a Third Age invention and passing it is something the Aes Sedai do very rarely...

It's common knowledge among even Warders it can be done. Lan told Moiraine this had not been done in X centuries, etc.

The Black Ajah knows, fat chances some of the Chosen like Ishamael don't know.

suttree
11-29-2012, 11:45 AM
Do the Forsaken even know a bond can be passed? The Warder bond is a Third Age invention and passing it is something the Aes Sedai do very rarely...

Good point David...

Edit: I don't know about that Dom. Forsaken where still expressing suprise at the bond itself not all that long ago.

David Selig
11-29-2012, 11:49 AM
It's common knowledge among even Warders it can be done. Lan told Moiraine this had not been done in X centuries, etc.

The Black Ajah knows, fat chances some of the Chosen like Ishamael don't know.
Ishamael, sure, and Mesaana before she became vegetable must've known it too, but the others? They aren't big on sharing info between themselves.

Can a woman pass a bond to a man? Elayne to Demandred for example?

alleluia_cone
11-29-2012, 11:50 AM
I like the idea that this already happened between Lanfear and Alanna and we are only learning about it now (at the same time helping to explain Rand's dream at the end of the last book). Either way, I think the line comes from someone speaking to Alanna. There is a reason she has been carrying the bond for so long; I doubt it will come to nothing. Red herring or Chekhov's gun? I vote for the latter.

Dom
11-29-2012, 11:58 AM
Nynaeve speaking to Aviendha, Elayne and Min, just before Rand goes to Shayol Ghul.

I very much doubt Rand would refuse that Nynaeve adds her own bond to all his others if that's justified they are bonded to go to SG.

Same for Moiraine.

Either of those two would be more likely to ask for Alanna's bond. They'd had motives other than wanting a bond to Rand.

But we know that a bond can also be dissolved, that some AS do this if they see death coming in time. So Alanna's bond could be dissolved if it's threatening Rand. She knows the "it's akin to abandonning a puppy on the side of the road" reasoning don't apply to her case as Rand has other bonds.

It would make it more likely that Alanna's bond is asked for by someone who wishes to be able to track Rand and Rand's health until the LB is over, but who can't possibly ask him to bond him as he'll refuse. Someone like Egwene, who as Amyrlin might dare asking a sister for such a thing (the vast majority of AS would never dare ask another sister for her warder's bond), especially if Alanna is wishing to pass the bond, because Verin made her conscious the Shadow knows of it and she's a liability. Egwene might simply ask Alanna to dissolve the bond, but the temptation to take it herself instead would certainly be huge. She'd know where Rand is, loosely how he is, if he's killed, if he's moving to SG without telling her... She'd be in a position to go to his help if the bond sent alarm. Etc. There's no shortage of motives for the Amyrlin Seat to wish for a bond to Rand if someone has one she has to pass to someone else because the Shadow knows of it. Much better for Egwene to have it herself than keep Elayne, Min, Aviendha or Alanna at her side, in the style of what Cadsuane did with Alanna.

Dom
11-29-2012, 12:18 PM
Good point David...

Edit: I don't know about that Dom. Forsaken where still expressing suprise at the bond itself not all that long ago.

Not really surprise. Curiosity, from Semirhage. She knew of the bond.

Moridin's "surprise" was quite different, he's still baffled by what the "primitives" come up with.

He's got 3000 years to learn everything he wants to know about the warder bond, and we can even suspect he even used it once: he seemed to have used Eldrene's bond to Aemon. He striked at Eldrene's nation, had Aemon's armies rush back home and fall into his trap.

In Ebou Dar, it's strongly suggested Moridin keeps himself informed of the BA tricks and other stuff the Third Agers come up with. His POV essentially implied he's more than aware they can still surprise him with inventions the AOLers for all their knowledge and sophistication had not thought of. He's not oblivious to this, and not likely not to have kept tabs through the BA through the centuries.

This is not true of the other Chosen. Most probably didn't bother getting information about the bond from the BA unless they needed it specifically. Semirhage waited to have an AS to deal with to satisfy her curiosity about the bond. Mesaana probably never asked, it would have been humiliating to admit she didn't know. A Chosen who wanted to know wouldn't ask but compel someone to tell him/her, but it's unlikely any but Ishamael has bothered.

Great Lord of the Dark
11-29-2012, 12:20 PM
Alanna! Of course! I try very hard to blurt out my first instinct before thinking on it too long.

Alanna's bond being passed makes a bit more sense than the girls' triple-bond, only because that bond was taken by force, whereas the secret to defeating the Dark One is to accept and give freely. Not sure whether this quote implies a forceful taking of the bond, or is part of a discussion where it is given willingly.

Egwene is a viable candidate, but Nynaeve makes more sense because she has been acting as Rand's conscience, and he needs his conscience re-integrated before he can win the Last Battle.

Dom
11-29-2012, 12:29 PM
I like the idea that this already happened between Lanfear and Alanna and we are only learning about it now (at the same time helping to explain Rand's dream at the end of the last book). Either way, I think the line comes from someone speaking to Alanna. There is a reason she has been carrying the bond for so long; I doubt it will come to nothing. Red herring or Chekhov's gun? I vote for the latter.

I don't really see how this could already have happened. Rand would know. Lan has known the minute Nynaeve took her bond from Myrelle. Rand is conscious of Alanna, knows she's gone north.

We don't know for sure Cyndane in Rand's dreams was truly Cyndane. It's been suggested this is was purely a dream-made Cyndane sent by Moridin who's decided it's time to reveal to Rand, on the eve of Merrilor that Lanfear is still around. A distraction. It would suggest Moridin intends to use Cyndane as a threat to Rand's lovers, and he wants Rand to know it's Lanfear, because Rand knows if Lanfear goes after his loved ones, she won't give up and they are in great danger. A distraction he doesn't need.

I like the idea Cyndane might force Alanna for Rand's bond, but at the same time it's hard to see why she'd need it (Lanfear and Ishamael know how to track ta'veren in the Pattern, dixit LTT) and if she forces Alanna to pass her bond to her, Cyndane's better learn to master bond-masking really fast, because otherwise she's painting a red flashing arrow on herself : come here and balefire my ass.

Dom
11-29-2012, 12:37 PM
Not sure whether this quote implies a forceful taking of the bond, or is part of a discussion where it is given willingly.

I'm not sure either. It's too short. The imperative is used... it could suggest either forcefulness (Shadow, etc.) or a relationship of authority (Egwene to Alanna, etc.) or just someone a bit blunt and strongwilled (fits Nynaeve well, and even Elayne who knows about a sister having another bond to Rand. It could fit a number of sisters... a Sitter, Cadsuane even though I just don't see her asking for Rand's bond, etc.).

It doesn't fit Moiraine, for instance, but the sentence is too short. It could fit her in some contexts, but in most circumstances she'd be more polite, less direct.

Egwene is a viable candidate, but Nynaeve makes more sense because she has been acting as Rand's conscience, and he needs his conscience re-integrated before he can win the Last Battle.

I agree about your vision of Nynaeve - and she's played that role during Rand's darkness, but isn't that accomplished by the DM epiphany? Not sure Rand still needs an external conscience, at least not for now (he may well be tested again.. the DP implies the DO's soon to get a great deal more control over or power from his followers, and we know Rand touching the TP will have some consequences still coming).

Terez
11-29-2012, 12:52 PM
It's too far for me to be sure, but I know Linda and me argued from the start about the sword, interpreting differently the quotes. I think she argued it was LTT's and it was why Rand was saying that "oddly he's the one who recognized it", but I'm not certain.
You're probably right. I seem to remember you and Linda agreeing but you would know better than I. I tried to find the discussion, but all I was able to find was this discussion of Tears from Steel (http://z6.invisionfree.com/White_Tower_Library/index.php?showtopic=50) and the Justice confirmation, which seems to support what you contend. To me it just seemed obvious once it was confirmed that the sword was Justice that the dragons were explained by the sword having previously been Amalasan's sword, and when I looked into the matter, everything I found seemed to confirm it, including the bit in the BWB which insists there was no duel in a way that screams 'historians are wrong sometimes', which is of course the central theme of the Wheel; the truth sometimes survives only in rumor and legend.

All I remember for sure was very much against the idea it was Justice at first, until you (I'm almost positive it was you) threw into the mix the theory it had been found in the water beneath the Hawkwing statue beneath the abandoned stedding. That's the argument that made me reconsider it all.
Yeah, that came about after kcf's report that the sword was found in water, beneath a statue, and nowhere near Falme. I had actually missed the 'submerged statue' line in the book the first time I read it. (I'm a horrible skimmer, especially on first read, so in a way that's worse than you thinking it was a Rand POV. :p) But I didn't have any ideas about the sword at all before Brandon confirmed it was Justice because the argument itself annoyed me greatly. It became one of those things that every noob was very opinionated about and I thought there were more interesting things to discuss than the identity of the sword. I liked the idea that it was Justice because it fit Rand's comments about recognizing it, and I liked the idea that it was Amalasan's because of the dragons, but it's almost impossible to satisfactorily justify on the fan forums an argument like 'it first belonged to Guaire Amalasan' before the identity of the sword is known for sure. After it was confirmed to be Justice, it was easy to justify that argument.

Anyway, I can't find the thread where we discussed kcf's report. And of course, it was also kcf's report that sidelined your argument about the location being Amalasan's home territory. So maybe we converged on that theory at the same time. :) But I think everyone was confused because both Amalasan's sword and Justice were good theories; the best theory was that it was both, but we couldn't make that argument until we knew it was Justice and had to explain the dragons.

I like your ideas for the outriggers; most of them fit with my own ideas, just as most of Linda's ideas fit with my own. I think that the Aiel and the Seanchan have both proven how an orderly society is superior to a society with a strong central power that takes little interest in organizing society. (The essence of the Ivory Tower parallel.) The Aes Sedai are amazed that both the Aiel and the Seanchan are able to find every single girl with the spark (and everyone who can learn as well) because they don't have any kind of organizational structure. So I think it makes a lot of sense for the Aiel, searching for a new purpose, to find that purpose by serving the Empire in an honored role (taking back their places of old). They just won't be able to do it so long as the Seanchan continue to enslave channelers (or anyone else). That is the only thing preventing the Empire from being a true servant of the people, just as Hawkwing's obsessive hatred for Aes Sedai prevented his Empire from surviving him on the Randland continent. And while Aviendha's vision mainly highlighted the faults of the Aiel that drove them to destroy the Peace, one can't so easily write off the justification for the bitterness of the Aiel. Some of their own had been taken as da'covale and damane, and they never forgot that. It was their honor that destroyed them.

I'm not quite as interested in how the Empire will maintain Rand's legacy, but the symbolism you describe is nice.

It fits with Hawkwing's themes too. He wasn't trying to conquer and set himself up as Emperor. It happened because he rose to deal with Guaire Amalasan the Tower was failing to defeat (did Bonhwin let that happen to rekindle fear of male channellers? Not impossible...) and it's the rogue actions of an Amyrlin that planted the seeds for an Empire, and his vision of the WT as "rogue" (with huge help from Ishamael to shape those, and Ishamael was likely working in concert with his BA around Bonwhin...).
Technically Ishamael didn't play a role until near the end of his life; he was apparently only around for forty years, and much of it was after Hawkwing's death, as he stirred up and maintained the beginnings of the War of the Hundred Years. But yes, Hawkwing saw a need for an organized society to deal with threats like Amalasan, and he saw the incompetence of the White Tower as a problem that needed to be dealt with. But the indications are that he had friendly enough relations with at least some Aes Sedai, and it's worth noting that the Aes Sedai who helped him capture Amalasan were punished upon their return to the Tower. Perhaps this was because they allowed Hawkwing to duel Amalasan and take much of the credit for having finally captured him, while Bonwhin would have wanted that credit for the White Tower, if for no other reason than to prevent Hawkwing from gaining too much influence. There are even rumors (again, thought unlikely by the historians!) that Tamika was a rogue Aes Sedai; I wouldn't be surprised if she was one of the ones that helped him capture Amalasan. Bonwhin was not deposed until after Tamika's death (about two years before Hawkwing's own death).

With post-epiphany Rand, no longer "a tyrant- usurper-dictator", conscious not to repeat LTT's mistakes of having tried to fill too many pair of shoes at once (and failing at his real role of Champion in the end), and determined to give back to everyone agreeing to step up and fill their duties/responsibilities their rightful places and roles, the door is wide open for him to give Hawkwing's sword to Mat or Fortuona, down the line.
I have suspected since it was revealed to be Justice that the sword would end up with Tuon, and that's part of why I want to believe that the woman in Egwene's dream is Tuon. But there's a possibility that it will be Egeanin because I can see Egeanin being the one to pass that sword on to Tuon. There has to be a resolution of their bad relationship, and it fits with Egeanin's character (like her wanting to serve the Empire even now, if only by using the name Tuon gave her, and her habit of giving gifts to important people in the Empire). I also like the idea that the 'into the heart' prophecy really refers to Justice, and with Egwene and Gawyn both foreshadowed to play a role in Rand's death, it's not difficult to see Egeanin being 'who draws it out' (a perhaps deliberately gender-neutral statement).

The last parts of TGS and TOM have set things up for Rand to have changed his views about the Seanchan, but he's not going to find much support because in parallel things have evolved to stir very strong opposition to the Seanchan.
This is why Mat and Egwene are the most important players for the truce with the Seanchan. Egwene because she has demonstrated leadership even among non–Aes Sedai groups of channelers, and she has to be the one to make that bargain and represent the interests of channelers. It helps that Mat is on her side; his ideas about the a'dam and even his respect for Egwene have been carefully foreshadowed; I especially like the departure for Ebou Dar scene in Salidar. Both Mat and Egwene have been specifically mentioned as being great negotiators. In the future Aviendha saw, the negotiations were apparently with Rand, and somehow didn't achieve consensus on the a'dam or a meaningful, logical role for the Aiel. Those are clearly the two most important elements that need to be changed.

Perrin's the one closest to the thinking that a temporary alliance for TG with the Seanchan is possible.
I have no doubt that his voice will be heard, and others; I just think Egwene and Mat are the two most important to the negotiations, and I expect them to happen largely without Rand. At this point (and I may change my mind) I am expecting two trips to Shayol Ghul—a disastrous one, and a successful one. Certain prophecies apparently cannot be reconciled any other way.

Assuming Justice lacks a heron (very likely because not mentioned yet, but uncertain)...
tsk, tsk...from the quote I provided above: :p

"I have to fix what problems I can," Rand said, pulling the ancient sword from the sheath and checking the blade. There was no heron mark, but the fine steel blade glistened in the lamplight, showing the undulating lines of its folded metal. It had been Power-forged, he claimed. He seemed to know things about it he did not share....and that Lan is right that officers in the AOL had herons...
That was detailed more explicitly in the BWB:

During the War of Power many weapons were made using the Power. Among these were very special swords made so that they would not shatter or break, and would never lose their edge. Some, made for soldiers, bore no special mark. The sword of the Malkieri Kings was one of these. Others were made for lord-generals, and bore a heron or other mark deep within the metal. Today these heron-marked blades are very rare and are awarded only to those skilled enough to be given the title of blademaster. Because the number of blademasters exceeds the number of swords that survived the war, many of the current heron-marked swords are not Aes Sedai work. They are, however, the finest steel that men can temper.

Whether LTT had a heron-marked blade or not becomes then a matter of deciding if he was a pre-WOS fencer like Sammael (who did it professionally), or if he merely picked it up in the early WOS when developing all warfare/combat techniques they could think of.
Be'lal implied that Lews Therin was among those who thought to turn the sport into a martial art, so I'm guessing that he was accomplished at swordplay.

fionwe1987
11-29-2012, 12:54 PM
Not if she's under compulsion at the time....
True. But I find that scenario to be unlikely. Further, will Elayne passing the bond have any effect? Remember that the bond to Rand is different from usual bonds. They created three identical weaves in their end, then had it change into the warder bond before it touched Rand. I'm unsure if the Elayne-Rand bond is a discrete entity that can be passed by her alone.

Keeping tabs on Rand in the LB, and not wishing the bond to pass to anyone who can use it to meddle when she's the one with authority to deal with Rand.
Niether of these are sensible reasons. The bond will let her keep tabs on him, but it will also let him keep tabs on her. Not to mention destroy her relationship with Elayne, Aviendha and Min. And the bond being used to meddle with her dealing with Rand makes no sense either. No one can compel Rand through it, and given the number of people bonded to Rand, it isn't even like the sister bonded to him can use it as some kind of unique leverage. Not to mention that Egwene's view on this kind of forced bonding is hardly likely to be very different from Cadsuane's.

sleepinghour
11-29-2012, 01:11 PM
I really don't see Cadsuane ever doing this. Her feelings on this seem strong. Nor do I see Egwene asking for Rand's bond. What would be the purpose?

a) Rand uses Callandor, which opens his mind to be seized by Moridin. Cadsuane/Egwene/Moiraine asks Alanna for Rand's bond to locate and try to control him through the bond until something can be done to separate the two.

b) Alanna went to defend Arafel and ended up stabbed by a Thakan'dar blade. Cadsuane/Egwene asks for Rand's bond so her death won't distract him while he's at Shayol Ghul.

c) Nynaeve has ripped Rand from T'A'R and bonded him herself since Elayne and Aviendha weren't around to do it. Elayne or Aviendha arrives and asks for the bond.

There are several possible scenarios, some more likely than others...I also like the Cyndane/Alanna scenario, but I'm not sure Cyndane would willingly sign up for that considering how much she'd suffer if he died.

Great Lord of the Dark
11-29-2012, 01:16 PM
I agree about your vision of Nynaeve - and she's played that role during Rand's darkness, but isn't that accomplished by the DM epiphany? Not sure Rand still needs an external conscience, at least not for now (he may well be tested again.. the DP implies the DO's soon to get a great deal more control over or power from his followers, and we know Rand touching the TP will have some consequences still coming.

Nynaeve's role goes back much further. When Rand leaves home, she is his conscience trailing after him, telling him not to fall for the traps of the great, big, wide world. The only place her metaphorical role was evident was in Far Madding, and Arad Doman. Nynaeve holding Rand's bond would act as his promise that he won't be led astray again and he'll always be true to his morals and roots.

With regard to the other discussion about Cyndane, it would be utterly cool to have Cyndane take Rand's bond from one the women holding it. This could itself serve as a means of linking Lanfear back to her humanity. Any redemption is that much more credible if she is linked or bonded to Rand. Lanfear's short chat with Min in Falme about keeping Rand safe for her until she comes back for him would be prescient in this case.

Dom
11-29-2012, 01:22 PM
Nynaeve's role goes back much further.

I agree with all this. I merely meant it played out the most in TGS.

Any redemption is that much more credible if she is linked or bonded to Rand.

I hate all notions of redemption for Mierin.

arioch
11-29-2012, 01:26 PM
Loony theory time:

Mat, Tuon, and Elaida/Suffa.

Two things go for this one:

1) not as clearly obvious as something involving Rand and Alanna, and as such is a better tease from Brandon/Team Jordan/Tor
2) we think Mat's foreshadowed to be bonded Warder, but
2a) Tuon is unlikely to actually learn to channel and the weaves to do so in the last book

Terez
11-29-2012, 01:42 PM
Tuon already knows how to channel. She does it all the time, using the a'dam. (She makes the weaves through the link.)

Dom
11-29-2012, 01:51 PM
Tuon already knows how to channel. She does it all the time, using the a'dam. (She makes the weaves through the link.)

Yeah, it's not weaves sul'dam needs to learn indeed, it's the basic novice training they'd need to go through.

They're like channellers who trained with a protective buffer (that of a circle instead of that of an angreal). They can channel any quantity without arming themselves or the damane. They have not learned to control saidar, but to make weaves without worrying about control (well, experienced sul'dam anyway... the less experienced don't perceive the weaves at all, they channel "blind").

It's very different from doing it with an a'dam, they will need to go through all the baby steps of handling small quantities of saidar and learn to resist its seduction, until they can handle bigger quantities without risking to draw too much and burn themselves out. Presumably, anyway.

Not that Tuon is about to channel on her own any time soon. It can't be accidental, dixit RJ. It needs to be a conscious decision to want to learn.

sleepinghour
11-29-2012, 01:51 PM
We don't know if it's completely impossible to Compel Rand through the bond, just that Alanna didn't manage it while he was holding the Power in LoC. It may well be possible when he isn't.

There's also some indication that holding the Power helps somewhat against ta'veren powers, though possibly only in the sense that it distracts the channeler.

Egwene opened her mouth — and realized that she was about to tell him all she knew about Salidar. Barely in time she clamped her teeth shut so hard her jaws ached, and opened herself to saidar. The sweet feel of life, so strong it overwhelmed everything else, seemed to help; slowly the urge to talk began to ebb.

Terez
11-29-2012, 01:57 PM
Yeah, it's not weaves sul'dam needs to learn indeed, it's the basic novice training they'd need to go through.
I don't think so. Nynaeve's description makes it seem that channeling through the a'dam is essentially the same thing as channeling on one's own. You still have to control the Power—sul'dam take time to learn to do this on their own, apparently; only the experienced sul'dam can do it—unless you ask the damane to perform the task herself. Tuon clearly doesn't do this. I think that she will have less difficulties than even Bethamin did, as she seems to have more natural talent.

Not that Tuon is about to channel on her own any time soon. It can't be accidental, dixit RJ. It needs to be a conscious decision to want to learn.
I don't think it's foregone that Tuon will not make that choice, whatever she says, especially with the ramping up of the foreshadowing with Mat and the Warder bond.

missbee
11-29-2012, 02:25 PM
When I suggested Cyndanne as a candidate, I wasn't thinking she'd do it off her own back. My thought was that she's being forced into it by Moridin.
If she does have the bond, would Cyndanne be able to sense how Rand feels about Mierin during that dream? (other than the 'desire' part)
That would fit nicely with Cyndanne being 'punished the most'- forced to take the bond, to be scorned all over again, and be unable to do anything about it.
Is Moridin planning to kill Cyndanne later in the hope of unbalancing Rand at some crucial point?

@Dom
As you point out hiding the identity of the bond holder and their location would be important, but masking would take care of both.
Rand's so busy he's ignored Taim and the BT, he's not going to waste time searching for Alanna to find out why she's become shy all of a sudden.


Either that, or it's some random Warder about to have his life saved by his AS passing the bond over before she dies

Dom
11-29-2012, 02:32 PM
I don't think so. Nynaeve's description makes it seem that channeling through the a'dam is essentially the same thing as channeling on one's own.

Nynaeve is a full channeller. Not sure her description of working with an a'dam match exactly what sul'dam do. The less experienced ask (or mentally compel with the a'dam) the damane, the more experience seem to see the weaves. Are they controlling them the way a channeler like Nynaeve does? It's uncertain. Some descriptions suggest they almost see the weaves, almost control them. But not quite, maybe. It seems the a'dam can work both way, the holder can form the weaves (perhaps only works if the holder is a trained channeller) or have the damane do it under her mental control. I've also noticed that with Seanchan damane, it appears the Talents/flow affinities all come from the damane, while it's Nynaeve's Talents that came into play with Moghedien (she was using Moghedien as a kind of wells, in a way).

There's a difference between controlling weaves, and dealing with the seduction of saidar. Look at early scenes of novice training in TGH for instance. Holding saidar reliably was an early issue for channellers, then it's controlling the seduction, not letting yourself embrace saidar (or saidin) too much. Then it's performing that by instinct, while concentrating on very complex weaving.

Bethamin and Seta also followed AS training. They were just much faster learners than your usual novices. They were still taught how to embrace saidar, and have gone through steps to learn to control it themselves. Presumably, I don't see what else the sisters were teaching them otherwise. It was just faster than usual. Not sure if their potential was reached must faster too. We might learn more in AMOL, Bethamin and Seta have very recently reached the WT. We'll see where they stand, if they'll be raised AS soon or remain novices, or make it to Accepted.

Sul'dam don't feel the seduction of saidar, at least it's never been mentionned. The pleasure is all for the damane too (and explain in part their twisted psychological relationship to sul'dam.. they're their oppressor, but at the same time it's linked with a sul'dam they can feel the pleasure of saidar...)

I don't think it's foregone that Tuon will not make that choice, whatever she says, especially with the ramping up of the foreshadowing with Mat and the Warder bond.


I don't think it's an option for Fortuona at this point. She'd rather die. All the damane would know she can channel too. She'd doom herself if she did that (and she can't learn on her own, unless she sparks. She could, she's only twenty, she's not reached the limit age, and we know this can happen, a sul'dam who suddenly spark. It's why they're all tested until 25).

Fortuona could have Milen bond Mat for her and have her pass the bond, theorically. A bizarre twist, but oh well.

I agree it's possible Fortuona decides to learn, but I don't see it happening before the epilogue section at best, and I guess this is an issue RJ likely has pushed to the outriggers, because it has very good character development potential.

At the moment, there's not really a way by which Tuon could channel and the Seanchan would accept this. Accepting she has the potential is already a huge bite to swallow, it will need good slow chewing.

Of course, there's no way to be 100% sure Tuon remains Empress.... it's not because the outriggers were about her and Mat returning to Seanchan it's a foregone conclusion they're in charge.

Terez
11-29-2012, 02:56 PM
Nynaeve is a full channeller. Not sure her description of working with an a'dam match exactly what sul'dam do. The less experienced ask (or mentally compel with the a'dam) the damane, the more experience seem to see the weaves. Are they controlling them the way a channeler like Nynaeve does? It's uncertain.
I agree it's uncertain; just trying to establish that the evidence we have is, if anything, suggestive that Tuon already knows how to channel and will have few hurdles to overcome when the time comes. I think the most logical hurdle would be her personal strength. And unlike novices, she already knows the dangers of learning to channel; she trains damane and so she has to be intimately familiar with those things and how to deal with them.

There's a difference between controlling weaves, and dealing with the seduction of saidar.
I know, but I think the sul'dam deal with it in their own way, hence the overwhelming desire to be 'complete' with a damane, a desire that only grows stronger as the sul'dam grows more experienced. Of course, Tuon seems to be a strange and special case, having gotten so skilled at such a young age. This probably is partly because of her talent and partly because of her station. There are always many more sul'dam than damane and Tuon was probably never denied a desire to be 'complete'.

Bethamin and Seta also followed AS training.
Bethamin channeled without thinking; that was only due to her own experience as a sul'dam, and the weave she used was specifically Seanchan.

I don't think it's an option for Fortuona at this point. She'd rather die.
Beliefs can change, especially if there is a strong emotional catalyst. We are certainly building toward a cultural change for the Seanchan; Tuon making that choice is only logical. Aviendha's vision of the future shows that she is capable of holding to that view for the rest of her life, but it doesn't rule out the possibility that she can also change her mind.

I agree it's possible Fortuona decides to learn, but I don't see it happening before the epilogue section at best, and I guess this is an issue RJ likely has pushed to the outriggers, because it has very good character development potential.
I doubt he pushed it to the outriggers; it's too central to the ending he's been building toward for so long. A resolution to the damane problem is absolutely essential, even though Aviendha's vision showed it was technically possible that the Last Battle could be won without that concession. It's possible, but what is the price? The themes are too strong; Egwene's battle with the a'dam and the Seanchan dates back to book two, and the seeds were planted in book one. The seeds for Mat's role were planted when he blew the Horn. This is big, which makes a whole lot of room for something drastic like Tuon channeling.

At the moment, there's not really a way by which Tuon could channel and the Seanchan would accept this.
I can think of several ways. The world is falling apart; it's the perfect time for change. (Haven't you read The Shock Doctrine? :)) And no one has ever tested the idea of having the Empress channel. In a way, she might be the only possible person who can convince them that channelers can be free. But some of her most respected citizens have come to know the other side of the story, beginning with Egeanin, also introduced in TGH. How many of them were at Falme and saw Hawkwing fight against them? The seeds for their revolution were planted there.

Accepting she has the potential is already a huge bite to swallow, it will need good slow chewing.
She doesn't have to do anything extraordinary. She only has to channel, and condone channeling, for the good of the Empire (and therefore, for the good of the people) and not for evil. Something simple like the Warder bond will do. ;)

Of course, there's no way to be 100% sure Tuon remains Empress.... it's not because the outriggers were about her and Mat returning to Seanchan it's a foregone conclusion they're in charge.
Eh, 99.9% is close enough for me in this case. :D

Southpaw2012
11-29-2012, 02:57 PM
My guess is it's one of the Forsaken speaking to either Alanna or one of the bonded girls such as Elayne and they're trying to get Rand's bond to get a hold of him

Dom
11-29-2012, 02:57 PM
he's not going to waste time searching for Alanna to find out why she's become shy all of a sudden.

He's thought of her recently, he knows she's gone to the Borderlands.

As Rand pointed out, he's got a great deal of things to take care for. He's set things in motion with Naeff to gain intelligence about the BT. At this point, he means to strike at SG the day after Merrilor, obviously he mostly want to know what to expect might come out of the BT to face him that day.

But a lot points to Rand being forced to delay his strike, so his plans will change, including how he decides to deal with the BT.

If Rand must delay his strike, he won't like too much having Alanna roaming around, having no idea who is with her and why. She'd be a liability. It's extremely easy for him to fetch her. He could have her back in maybe under 20 min. She's not that far from Merrilor, such as it is - a few Travelling jumps away. Alanna may also decide to come to Merrilor, of course, feeling Rand's focus/determination.

Tollingtoy
11-29-2012, 03:35 PM
Would being bonded to a DF or especially to a Forsaken have any negative effects on Rand?

Terez
11-29-2012, 03:51 PM
Hasn't it already? :)

missbee
11-29-2012, 04:01 PM
He's thought of her recently, he knows she's gone to the Borderlands. ...

... If Rand must delay his strike, he won't like too much having Alanna roaming around, having no idea who is with her and why. She'd be a liability. It's extremely easy for him to fetch her. He could have her back in maybe under 20 min. She's not that far from Merrilor, such as it is - a few Travelling jumps away. Alanna may also decide to come to Merrilor, of course, feeling Rand's focus/determination.

He thought of her because she moved suddenly. But if she faded away in the middle of everything that is going on at FoM, would he notice immediately? Maybe
He could get her pretty quickly, if he knew where to look. But if the bond is masked? How long would it take? How much time could he devote on a side trip if BT suddenly blows? And then, suppose Lanfear were to hide in TAR? Or in some dreamshard? A parallel world?

And another thought, what would that do to the link with Moridin?

Dom
11-29-2012, 04:35 PM
But if the bond is masked? How long would it take?

Ah, but then it's no longer what I suggested. It rests on Alanna having gone in hiding because Verin told her the Shadow knows about her bond. Alanna has decided to go north, because he will come north eventually. She's hoping Rand will come to her, placed herself on his path to SG (an in an area she knows well and can probably hide well in).

If Alanna decides to hide the bond, Rand won't go to her. He'll get worried if he loses sense of Alanna suddenly, though, as this would be a bad sign Alanna doesn't want him to know where she is (and she could be at SG then, for all he would know).

AS/Rand don't always mention the bond (it would get annoying!), but it's not forgotten. It's there in the back of their heads, always. They notice when things change.

The whole Alanna factor is a bit of a plot device. Characters worry about it, and Verin probably gave a warning to Alanna, but none of them know Moridin and Cyndane are very apt at finding Rand wherever he is, thank you. And there are Elayne and Aviendha and Min few know about.

It could suggest Alanna's bond is there for another reason than tracking Rand. The obvious "link", thematically, is that it's the counterpart to what Egwene believes Rand has done to sisters. What she believes the Asha'man have done first, an Aes Sedai has actually done first. It could be part of the resolution of that story arc, or bring it further, for instance if Egwene, furious at Alanna for what she's done, asks for the Bond to be passed to her immediately with the intent to dissolve it (Rand, knowing what happened, would soon rush to Egwene), but first she decides she might use it as leverage if her negotiations with Rand over the bonded sisters, telling him she's dealt with Alanna's fault, and before she releases him will he do the same and have the Asha'man release the sisters (most likely won't want to by now, but that's another issue)? Egwene likely wouldn't risk a ploy like this now, on the eve of Merrilor, but on day 2 or 3...

alleluia_cone
11-29-2012, 05:02 PM
Egwene using the bond in such fashion strikes me as the height of hypocrisy, which rather makes me doubt the possibility. You can't on one hand compare forced bonding to rape then use it to blackmail the other party in negotiations (no matter how important). Egwene is decidedly uneven in her value judgments but this form of moral example is too ridiculous as I see it and beyond even her.

Cabadrin
11-29-2012, 06:25 PM
Moiraine to Nynaeve. Rocky Outcrop's brother got it.
I sense urgency. Lan has been captured and is tortured or severely hurt, Nynaeve is reeling. Moiraine is experienced in passing support through the bond, Nynaeve has never been in this situation.

fionwe1987
11-29-2012, 06:26 PM
Egwene using the bond in such fashion strikes me as the height of hypocrisy, which rather makes me doubt the possibility. You can't on one hand compare forced bonding to rape then use it to blackmail the other party in negotiations (no matter how important). Egwene is decidedly uneven in her value judgments but this form of moral example is too ridiculous as I see it and beyond even her.
Agreed. I could see Egwene asking for the bond if it is a way to save Rand's life (say Alanna is dying) or if its something she's agreed to him with, but "I'll force bond you so you can undo force-bondings that were beyond your control" is the height of ludicrousness.

Dom
11-29-2012, 06:47 PM
Egwene using the bond in such fashion strikes me as the height of hypocrisy, which rather makes me doubt the possibility. You can't on one hand compare forced bonding to rape then use it to blackmail the other party in negotiations (no matter how important). Egwene is decidedly uneven in her value judgments but this form of moral example is too ridiculous as I see it and beyond even her.

There's a subtle difference between leverage and giving yourself some ground in negotiations and blackmail. I'm not suggesting Egwene will call Rand and tell him "either you release the sisters, or I keep your bond!" It's silly.

Egwene wants Rand to release the bonded sisters. Even when she learns he wasn't involved, she still thinks he should have made the Asha'man release them.

There's a certain logic to Egwene taking Rand's bond from Alanna, if it happens during the time everyone is still at Merrilor and it can be dealt with immediately. Or if Alanna comes to her when Rand isn't around, and she confess to the Amyrlin she's bonded to Rand and Verin has told her the Shadow knows about the bond. She expected Rand to come after her, and when he did she would release his bond. But Rand isn't, and perhaps she should pass it to someone else the Shadow doesn't know about? Verin told her if she was forced to pass the bond for any reason only Egwene would know who the bond can be safely passed to. Egwene might in such circumstances prefer to trust no one and take the bond herself, intending to release it as soon as she meets Rand again.

Precisely because she's so offended at what the Asha'man have done, and determined to undo this, Egwene will be furious to learn what Alanna has done (even more if this happens after Rand and Egwene discussed this, Rand took all the blame and now she learns a sister had done the same to him before the Asha'man did it to sisters).

If Alanna resurfaces very soon, her bond places Egwene in a very bad position to negotiate the release of the sisters. She needs to negotiate this with a man she now knows has been forced bonded by an Aes Sedai long before the Asha'man did the same at the BT. She's in the same spot as Rand now.

She can't face Rand over the Asha'man as she intended to do, from the moral high ground, not without punishing Alanna and forcing her to relinquish the bond first. There's two way to proceed: either she summons Rand and forces Alanna to release him in front of her, or she demands Alanna pass her the bond so she can deal with Rand over this matter directly, and right away, and having already taken the first step to correct this. That places her in a slightly better position.

Egwene's motive wouldn't be to blackmail Rand, she would take the bond, send for Rand and dissolve it herself. She would tell Rand right away she's just learned about Alanna and punished her for what she's done, has temporarily taken the bond from her so she could dissolve it herself. As he should have asked the Asha'man to do... You promised me we'd discuss this whole issue here, I think the time has come for that Rand.

It may be Rand who tells her he can't have the sisters released right now, and admitting it's what he should have done right away, that his idea to let 47 sisters bond Asha'man with no choice in the matter and who were not even involved was even worse than the fault it was meant to correct. Of course matters have become far more complicated now, and Rand has much more to admit to Egwene about the BT... If Naeff returns soon enough for Rand to learn the 47 sisters are outside and can still be evacuated before Egwene learns the truth about the BT having been turned into a Dreadlord nest, Rand will be very, very lucky. If Rand can't produce the 47 sisters safe and sound before he has to tell Egwene about the BT, she'll be murderous.

Now comes the matter whether in the circumstances Rand would offer Egwene to keep his bond until all sisters who wish to be released is released, or if she wishes to release him. Would holding a bond to him, knowing he can't strike at SG without her knowing, knowing she will know where he is reassure her, making her agree to trust him and work with him? "If you answer yes Egwene, by all means keep the bond for now, just promise you'll keep this secret from everyone and to release it when I ask you to. Whenever I ask you to".

The only context in which I could see Egwene take the bond from Alanna without some intent to release Rand from it (the temptation not to will be there, though) is if the BT situation explodes in Rand's face and before he can discuss the matter with Egwene she learns her 47 envoys have been captured by Taim.

And in Taim's place I would make damn sure the Amyrlin receives dire news about what specifically happened to her 47 envoys on the day she's supposed to negotiate with Rand the matter of the Bore... It could even be why Taim has delayed so long turning Pevara (why keep one red envoy untouched when he's turned the other?), and why he's waited so long to invite the envoys in: because Rand has announced publicly when he meets the Amyrlin Seat and all the rulers and what he intends to do the next day. Mesaana was there, the Shadow knows. I think Naeff will prevent this, though, as it's hard to see how could Egwene - and the WT - could overcome their fury otherwise. It's bad enough the Red Sitters have been captured, but at least it's the Red AH and Tarna who are to blame for this, not Rand. The 47 envoys well... Rand's the one who sent them into that trap despite warnings of Logain. And Rand has known since his epiphany or so something's wrong at the BT, and still hasn't seen fit to inquire about the WT envoys, if they went, if they've returned etc.

eht slat meit
11-29-2012, 07:56 PM
Stop right there, because you're missing the point entirely.

The point that *I* was making to Dom and not to you, when you felt the need to contradict me, was that there is nothing strange or untoward about Rand's observation that the "new" sword was from his own set of memories rather than LTT's. A point which is entirely supported by a comparison between breadth of experiences with swords.

Tollingtoy
11-29-2012, 08:23 PM
Hasn't it already? :)


Are you suggesting that the Rand/Moridin bond has a relationship to the other bonds in the books?

suttree
11-29-2012, 09:22 PM
Are you suggesting that the Rand/Moridin bond has a relationship to the other bonds in the books?

There are quite clearly a number of similarities...

Dom
11-29-2012, 09:56 PM
There are quite clearly a number of similarities...

Especially to the same sex bond between Birgitte and Elayne.

Terez
11-29-2012, 10:55 PM
Especially to the same sex bond between Birgitte and Elayne.
Indeed, and RJ hinted that a male-male bond is similarly different from the opposite-gender bond, yet also different from the female-female bond, which would explain many of the unexplained aspects of their bond.

Menthu
11-30-2012, 04:26 AM
Just a loony one:

Does anyone see Alivia saying that line?


*ducks and covers*

Boli
11-30-2012, 05:48 AM
The dragon is one with the land, the land is one with the dragon.

Makes me wonder if Rand does a "mass bonding" with dozens, hundreds or even thousands of people tieng the people to him... and thus the land. The quote could just be two people bickering over who should be bonded :)

GonzoTheGreat
11-30-2012, 08:06 AM
"Only a remnant of a remnant shall he save."
Maybe those few are the Aiel who he hasn't bonded, and who thus don't go into an insane rage when he dies?

arioch
11-30-2012, 10:16 AM
"Only a remnant of a remnant shall he save."
Maybe those few are the Aiel who he hasn't bonded, and who thus don't go into an insane rage when he dies?

Either way that's Therava's Shaido.

GonzoTheGreat
11-30-2012, 10:21 AM
Either way that's Therava's Shaido.
Which, admittedly, is a somewhat weak point in the theory.

Res_Ipsa
11-30-2012, 11:33 AM
"Creator shelter us," she whispered.

Mat scowled. "You know, that's what Tuon said."

Pre trip to Ebou Dar Mat? Perhaps Moiraine to Mat.

Terez
11-30-2012, 11:33 AM
"Creator shelter us," she whispered.

Mat scowled. "You know, that's what Tuon said."
Dear god. At least it's not 'that's what she said'.

fionwe1987
11-30-2012, 11:37 AM
This is Mat speaking to Egwene after he's sent as ambassador to make peace between the Seanchan and the White Tower. He's leading up to saying how similar Tuon and Egwene are.

alleluia_cone
11-30-2012, 11:38 AM
This is Mat speaking to Egwene after he's sent as ambassador to make peace between the Seanchan and the White Tower. He's leading up to saying how similar Tuon and Egwene are.

I was about to make the same guess. That said, I don't find the quote anywhere near as juicy as the one from yesterday.

Dom
11-30-2012, 11:40 AM
Dear god. At least it's not 'that's what she said'.

:D

Slim pick. Not much meat on that bone.

Mat to Moiraine pre-Ebou Dar sounds quite possible, though it would also be fun if Mat's answer to Tuon's Matrim is to refuse to refer to her as Fortuona.

I'd share the feeling, I have a problem switching to the new name myself.:p

I tried a quick search (didn't try using variants of the expression, though). It doesn't appear to be something Tuon said on screen in WH/COT/KOD. Too bad.

fionwe1987
11-30-2012, 11:46 AM
I was about to make the same guess. That said, I don't find that quote anywhere near as juicy as the one from yesterday.

That depends. This is less cryptic. Something has Tuon and another woman Mat knows.scared in the same way. I want to know what that is. Any guesses?

GonzoTheGreat
11-30-2012, 11:48 AM
That depends. This is less cryptic. Something has Tuon and another woman Mat knows.scared in the same way. I want to know what that is. Any guesses?
I dunno. If I didn't know any better, then I might conjecture that Mat had lost an eye or something. Would that even be noticed by someone like Tuon, though?

More likely is that he has told a couple of people (including Tuon) that Rand is going to break the seals, and they have run out of time for playing games.

WinespringBrother
11-30-2012, 11:51 AM
Odd that Mat is not using the Empress' new adopted name.

arioch
11-30-2012, 11:52 AM
I dunno. If I didn't know any better, then I might conjecture that Mat had lost an eye or something. Would that even be noticed by someone like Tuon, though?

More likely is that he has told a couple of people (including Tuon) that Rand is going to break the seals, and they have run out of time for playing games.

No, the "that's what SHE said" quote from Mat would really only be used if Tuon is involved in this conversation (from afar). So unless that's a selection of Mat talking to for example Banner-General Lieutenant Batman Tylee Khirgan, I think it's Tuon sending Mat back with a message (through Travelling, which they now have access to).

Odd that Mat is not using the Empress' new adopted name.

Why would Mat of all people?

Oh and this pretty much has to take place after Chapter ... 11, is it?

fionwe1987
11-30-2012, 12:03 PM
I dunno. If I didn't know any better, then I might conjecture that Mat had lost an eye or something. Would that even be noticed by someone like Tuon, though?

More likely is that he has told a couple of people (including Tuon) that Rand is going to break the seals, and they have run out of time for playing games.

The eye part seems most likely. I don't know if Mat knows about Rand's plan before he went to Ebou Dar. Did Perrin tell him?

Great Lord of the Dark
11-30-2012, 12:05 PM
Seems like Mat must be talking to someone who knows Tuon by name. Or at the least wold recognize the name. Otherwise it's just that Mat mentioned to this woman that he married a woman named Tuon.

I also did a search for 'shelter' and found nothing, so Tuon and Mat must have a scene together.

The fact that this woman is breathless as she speaks, and Mat is scowling, says to me that they are looking upon a very big battlefield, or an imminent battle.

alleluia_cone
11-30-2012, 12:11 PM
I had not considered it but I think the suggestion above has some merit: Mat to Fortuona.

Although, that lessens the importance of the quote even more, rendering it a mere jest.

WinespringBrother
11-30-2012, 12:18 PM
I think Mat is saying it to Nynaeve (who has met Fortuona) at some point after Mat reunites with his wife. And I think he is scowling since he disagrees with them both :D about whatever it is he is talking about, or at least didn't expect them to agree about it.

David Selig
11-30-2012, 12:25 PM
I think Mat is saying it to Nynaeve (who has met Fortuona) at some point after Mat reunites with his wife. And I think he is scowling since he disagrees with them both :D about whatever it is he is talking about, or at least didn't expect them to agree about it.
This is my guess too.

Terez
11-30-2012, 01:21 PM
And now we have to wait until Monday for another one. :( (I was hoping that 'daily' meant 'daily' but oh well.)

arioch
11-30-2012, 01:35 PM
Nynaeve doesn't know Tuon as anybody other than Fortuona either, so if we're using that to try to figure out who Mat's talking to, it pretty much comes down to one of his party leaving Ebou Dar.

Dom
11-30-2012, 01:36 PM
Oh and this pretty much has to take place after Chapter ... 11, is it?

Probably, unless he's speaking to Setalle Anan or Moiraine. Many Mat/Tuon conversations have happened off-screen (many ellipses occured during their courting, and another at the end after their wedding scene), it doesn't have to refer to something Tuon said on screen.

I'm leaning toward Setalle Anan. She knows Tuon very well, and she very often echoed Tuon when talking to Mat too. It would be natural for Setalle to answer to a remark of Mat in a way that makes him scowl thinking Tuon had said the same thing. It fits well the Mat/Setalle/Tuon dynamic.

In his last TOM scene, Mat did not intend to go to Merrilor, even tried to convince Moiraine and Thom they should come with him to Caemlyn and ask Elayne about Rand's whereabouts. Unlike Perrin, who clearly felt the pull, Mat seems wholly unconcerned by Merrilor. To him it's "some meeting north with Rand and the rulers".

Looking at the details of his last scene and those in chapter 11, we can puzzle out a few facts:

- First, Mat's been Healed. In Ebou Dar he passes his wound as "two years old" and removes the "crude bandage" to show it. He's refused Moiraine's Healing in TOM, but it seems likely she'll offer again and he will accept it (it already started to itch and throb badly in the TOM scene, he won't bear it long). His look in Ebou Dar is very disheveled. It's in part disguise, but he's not pushed it much, as if he came fairly rushed. He has no eye patch but a crude bandage, and he's not borrowed inconspicuous clothes (as he could easily have if he met Perrin again - plenty of southerners with him) but picked some of his own, crudely ripping apart the lace. He's got no more supplies.

- Mat has returned to the Band's camp near Caemlyn. He went to Ghenjei on foot, he enters Ebou Dar on Pips, and now has a crude bundle of his "better clothes" he hastily arranged to hide his Ashan'darei.

- In the Ebou Dar chapter, Mat doesn't appear to know much more than he knew from Perrin before they parted. Rand has gone north for the LB (and jests he should have come to Ebou Dar, that the Rahad would push back Shadowspawn for him... foreshadowing...). He knows the LB has started. This again suggests Mat has witnessed the aftermath of the battle of Caemlyn. He knows a bit more from Grady of Merrilor and its purpose, and that Rand's now there, but he doesn't appear to know much more.

- In the Ebou Dar chapter, he thinks of Setalle, simply mentioning it's too bad her inn's not there anymore. There's no hint of any worry or anything. It's clear Mat either knows her fate, or has been given by someone falsely reassuring information about her fate. Setalle should be either in the Band's camp near Caemlyn and in this case Mat has met her, spoke about Tuon/his intent to go back to her. It means he knows Olver is missing. that the Band is all gone - what can he do but hope he's safe with the Band? In this scenario, it seems likely Mat gets Healed by Moiraine, that Grady opens a first gateway to make true on his promise to send Setalle Anan to Illian now nothing can be done for Olver (will she be our eyes on LB events happening in Illian? She could be), then a second gateway for Mat to Ebou Dar, and finally Grady brings Moiraine and Thom to Merrilor.

A second scenario would have Setalle vanished (looking for Olver in Caemlyn) and Grady telling Mat the Band, mostly, is safe and sound at Merrilor. He assumes, wrongly, Olver and her are safe there.

Mat in chapter 11 is also rather clearly not there in "official capacity" to negotiate anything for Rand/Egwene, let alone something urgent/important. He doesn't want to meet Tuon right away. He infiltrated the city, he fears bumping into anyone who knows him, he fears to be hunted by authorities for Tylin's murder. He mentions someone he knows to be very close to Tuon (Karede) as one of the worst person he could bump into. He also mentions he has no idea how Tuon might react to him now they've got some time apart. He's gathering intelligence, but is annoyed to pass as some kind of spy. Mat clearly fears how things stand between him and Tuon, and wants as much information as he can before he makes up his mind to go to her or not. And Mat whines and grumbles, but not at any point does he reflects about what Rand/Egwene have gotten him into. Mat's not gone to Merrilor, he's in Ebou Dar on his own, and he seems to show his usual resistance when the Wheel is pulling him. In TOM he seemed pulled toward Tuon (the idea he had to return to her appeared mid-book or so) when Perrin was very clearly, and more and more, pulled to Rand. He's also very worried when he hears dice (real ones) in Ebou Dar, which could suggest the dice have rattled not long ago and perhaps stopped as he decided to go to Ebou Dar instead of Merrilor.

It's virtually a given Mat/Moiraine/Thom will miss at least the first part of the "meeting day". It's likely to begin very early, a great deal has to be seen to after the reunion itself if Rand is to strike at SG the next day.

The earliest Moiraine/Thom/Mat could appear there is late during the meeting. Grady opens a Gateway near Ghenjei at noon each day, and Moiraine hasn't arrived, so Mat's left Ghenjei on the eve of Merrilor at the earliest. Mat needs to go to the camp of the Band get Pips and his clothes (it doesn't make sense the Band has returned to fetch all their things, spare horses and Mat's clothes, of all things, by noon on the day of Merrilor.. there are far more important things to do that day...). So either Mat/Moiraine/Thom have left Ghenjei later than Merrilor, or they'll arrive mid-afternoon on the day of the meeting at the earliest, and many signs from his last TOM scene and chapter 11 point to Mat not going there at all, and almost certainly not leaving Merrilor as "ambassador".

Tollingtoy
11-30-2012, 02:31 PM
Indeed, and RJ hinted that a male-male bond is similarly different from the opposite-gender bond, yet also different from the female-female bond, which would explain many of the unexplained aspects of their bond.



Interesting.....for some reason I've never thought of it that way. Do you suppose Rand can sense Moridin's location the way that Elayne and Birgitte can sense each other?

Terez
11-30-2012, 02:33 PM
No, there's no evidence of that. It would have to be one of the differences of the male-male bond that RJ mentioned, unless there's some way to mask the bond that doesn't prevent the effects we have seen. But really, as a male-male difference it makes sense. Men also can't sense whether another man can channel unless he's actually holding the Power, and even then, can't tell how strong he is unless he's maxing out with a sense of strain.

neurotopia
11-30-2012, 03:15 PM
The earliest Moiraine/Thom/Mat could appear there is late during the meeting. Grady opens a Gateway near Ghenjei at noon each day, and Moiraine hasn't arrived, so Mat's left Ghenjei on the eve of Merrilor at the earliest. Mat needs to go to the camp of the Band get Pips and his clothes (it doesn't make sense the Band has returned to fetch all their things, spare horses and Mat's clothes, of all things, by noon on the day of Merrilor.. there are far more important things to do that day...). So either Mat/Moiraine/Thom have left Ghenjei later than Merrilor, or they'll arrive mid-afternoon on the day of the meeting at the earliest, and many signs from his last TOM scene and chapter 11 point to Mat not going there at all, and almost certainly not leaving Merrilor as "ambassador".

Are you sure about that part? "How much do you trust Mat Cauthon" makes a heck of a lot of sense if he is sent as one. (Willingly or no)

Dom
11-30-2012, 03:45 PM
No, there's no evidence of that. It would have to be one of the differences of the male-male bond that RJ mentioned, unless there's some way to mask the bond that doesn't prevent the effects we have seen. But really, as a male-male difference it makes sense. Men also can't sense whether another man can channel unless he's actually holding the Power, and even then, can't tell how strong he is unless he's maxing out with a sense of strain.

Brandon hinted at something interesting when he compared Moridin/Rand to Birgitte and Gaidal.

I'm starting to think the warder bond is an emulation (weaker in some ways that the real thing, stronger in other ways) of something that can be present naturally in the Pattern, the bond that ties Moridin's soul and Rand's, the bond that ties Gaidal's soul and Birgitte's etc. That bond is supposed to be barely conscious, unlike the bond channellers create.

Those "soul bonds" are eternal, while the channellers's emulated bond lasts for one life (and can also be released).

The gender differences make full sense, when you consider everything in Creation is the OP in the end. Entwining two threads of saidar (spirit, souls) or two threads of saidin, isn't quite the same as entwining saidar and saidin (and the gender of the spirit used to emulate a soul bond probably matters... an Asha'man bonding a woman doesn't have exactly the same result as an AS bonding a man). Bonds involving a female are more "emotional" (exacerbated in a female-female bond), and seemingly the male-male bond is more physical. Men have problems dealing with the emotions of a severed bond, women cope better though it's hard. Not sure at all it has anything to do with being a channeller or not.. it may be the Asha'man even thought they're channellers and bonders will still tend to go mad if their wives are killed by Taim (and Taim would have to be a real idiot not to plan to do that, whether he'll reach this endgame or the wives will be saved in time is another matter).

So I guess we might be looking in the right direction by comparing warder bonds of all gender and Rand/Moridin, but I'm wondering more and more if what happened isn't more similar to LTT/Rand in the end: the bond between their souls always existed. They have a relationship Brandon compared to Birgitte/Gaidal. What happened at Shadar Logoth isn't a bond, Shai'tan merely shattered the barrier that separated Rand and Moridin as two entities/two souls. For now their souls perceive one another, can share the same dreams, some of their thoughts - LTT even once perceived Moridin focused on creating TAR puppets of Perrin/Mat at the Ansaline, and possibly Rand got access to the TP because his soul and Moridin's are now close enough to merging for that.

They're not simply bonded, they have always been soul-bonded, like Birgitte and Gaidal are, and it just is. They are merging.

It could be important, because if it's not a matter of severing a soul bond, it's rather a matter of rebuilding the barrier. Perhaps it changes nothing if death would solve this, but if the process involves their eternal souls becoming merged and recreating something Shai'tan managed to break or weaken (weaken is more likely, the merging is gradual, it wasn't instantaneous), that rather looks, most definitely in fact, like a job for Nynaeve... And it starts looking even more (it did a lot, already) like Rand/Moridin parallel in microcosm Shai'tan vs. Creation, down to the fact there's a missing layer that's been "drilled" when the balefire streams clashed. Rand/LTT reintegrated as two life experiences of the same soul and one conscience who thought it was two and that's now reunited as one as it should be, and that's all well. But Rand/Moridin merging isn't well at all.

Dom
11-30-2012, 04:15 PM
Are you sure about that part? "How much do you trust Mat Cauthon" makes a heck of a lot of sense if he is sent as one. (Willingly or no)

It's speculative, but from chapter 11 and the TOM scene, it looks like that a great deal.

"How much do you trust Mat Cauthon" can happen in many ways without Mat being sent by the Merrilor alliance.

Moiraine will tell them Mat has gone back to his wife. Rand might rapidly come to understand it's through Mat the Seanchan will come to him as allies, fulfilling the winning conditions set by the Aelfinn.

Rand, Moiraine won't have any problem with that. The first thing Moiraine said to Mat when she learned (and she was stunned) was :ta'veren. She accepted it just like that. Rand has a similar understanding/instinct now, and Perrin.

Now try to imagine how the likes of Egwene, Elayne, Berelain and co. will react to news Rand/Moiraine are now absolutely convinced Mat will bring them back the Seanchan as allies and that's what fulfills the winning conditions set by creatures who fed off Moiraine, drained her of her ability to channel and kept her captive.

A lot of people are going to react as if Rand has just told them they need to leave the door open so the fox can enter the hen-yard freely, because, you know, chickens and foxes need to work together as allies. And how do you keep the foxes from eating the hens, exactly? A lot of channellers are not going to take "the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills" for an answer on this.

I don't think you'll find many sisters in the WT who'll look kindly on any plan to have the Seanchan join them. Nor the Aiel, no more than the Sea Folk, nor the Asha'man.

They're not going to be in any mood to send an ambassador, and they would never choose the husband of the Empress to speak for them... not on his own anyway. There would be a whole delegation, including Berelain su Paendrag at least, and several representatives from nations, if the embassy came from Merrilor. Mat could be part of it, but only part.

The Pattern left them no choice, Mat has gone on his own, and Rand will put his trust on this and let the Wheel weave....

Egwene and co. won't easily accept, and if she hesitates and lean toward Rand for a while, Egeanin doesn't trust Mat one bit and will convince Egwene. Her dream about a Seanchan woman with a sword? Well, Egeanin is a Seanchan woman with a sword, it must be her Egwene will conclude. Mat's achieved nothing with Tuon and Egeanin knows it and even paid directly for his failure. All Mat has accomplished is to get Tuon more entrenched and more determined to pull down the WT.

IMO, "How much do you really trust Mat Cauthon?" is Egeanin to Egwene. Egwene (and her allies) will go forward with their plans to make the sul'dam/damane collapse before Mat can bring them, if Rand's right. There will probably be a lot of hopes Rand's wrong.

Southpaw2012
11-30-2012, 04:32 PM
And now we have to wait until Monday for another one. :( (I was hoping that 'daily' meant 'daily' but oh well.)

They should continue releasing a quote or two during the week and then a full chapter to hold us over the weekend ;)

Terez
11-30-2012, 04:46 PM
Responded to Dom on the Warder bond in the resurrected thread (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=205067).

Dom
11-30-2012, 04:46 PM
They should continue releasing a quote or two during the week and then a full chapter to hold us over the weekend ;)

:D A chapter a week for a year or so, like in the good old days or Dickens and Dumas would have been very cool. After a fashion.

Cabadrin
11-30-2012, 06:09 PM
Tylee to Mat, when they see a steamwagon train carrying Trollocs. Whisper indicates they are hiding, and I don't recall that mild expletive, could be Seanchan. Tylee is a soldier, more likely to be with Mat scouting than other Seanchan women we know.

ScoundrelTheToy
11-30-2012, 06:33 PM
Where has the "How much do you trust Mat Cauthon?" been said?

Terez
11-30-2012, 06:39 PM
Here. (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=46#40)

ScoundrelTheToy
11-30-2012, 09:08 PM
I had never seen that. I've seen Dom post it numerous times and I'd say he's got that pegged with Egenean to Egwene and they think he's abandoned them to the Seanchan. Seems he's right that it's linked to what Mat saw when they went through the portal stones in TGH. Neat, thanks.

It also fits in nicely with Egwene's 3 paragraph dream. Egwene etc. think Mats abandoned them then Mat comes strolling along with the Empress in toe to make an alliance when the Lights' back is against the wall and there are no other options and BOOM there comes Mat pulling their bacon off the coals again! Everyone thinks it's Egenean and not Tuon but I'm fixed on it being Tuon. I think that dream of Egwene's basically sums up the last battle for her I think is what RJ did with; or outlined it via that dream in CoT.

jana
11-30-2012, 11:14 PM
Where has the "How much do you trust Mat Cauthon?" been said?

In my bedroom.

Dom
12-01-2012, 09:44 AM
I had never seen that. I've seen Dom post it numerous times and I'd say he's got that pegged with Egenean to Egwene and they think he's abandoned them to the Seanchan. Seems he's right that it's linked to what Mat saw when they went through the portal stones in TGH. Neat, thanks.

It also fits in nicely with Egwene's 3 paragraph dream. Egwene etc. think Mats abandoned them then Mat comes strolling along with the Empress in toe to make an alliance when the Lights' back is against the wall and there are no other options and BOOM there comes Mat pulling their bacon off the coals again! Everyone thinks it's Egenean and not Tuon but I'm fixed on it being Tuon. I think that dream of Egwene's basically sums up the last battle for her I think is what RJ did with; or outlined it via that dream in CoT.

Yup. Her incapacity to climb to the top beyond the cloud cover was long believed (by me anyway, and widely as I recall) to be a reference to her hardships at the Tower or solving things with Rand. At this point it's more likely to refer to the LB. The Sun/light is beyond those clouds, and only with the Seanchan woman with the sword and her helping each other can the two reach it.

Egwene refused that dream. She never saw the end of it, she literally jumped out of it, disgusted. Even in the Dream she couldn't accept the notion of collaborating with the Seanchan.

They're Egwene's biggest challenge, and RJ constantly raised the bar for her. She's on the eve or so of having to deal with this issue, but a few weeks ago the Seanchan were enslaving sisters and women in training, killing her soldiers, destroying the Tower, leaving very nasty and dark assassins behind who killed many sisters and that she barely escaped herself. Then, Mesaana reminded her only too well of how it felt to be held by an a'dam. Fortuona's raid on the WT pretty much put an end to any hope of Egwene being open-minded about the Seanchan. For Egwene, they're simply as bad as the Shadow itself, in fact for books she's worried more about her dream of their attack than the BA or Forsaken.

It's most likely the Will of the Wheel, IMO. The Seanchan must first rid themselves of those who can't accept what's coming. At the Tower, the Pattern has similarly discredited the radical wing of the Red Ajah, and cornered the Reds and their allies into a position of political weakness. And purged the Tower of the Shadow. This has not happened among the Seanchan, and it needs to. There's plenty of Seanchan who would accept free channelers anymore than you could ever convince Elaida to trust a male channeller. It's already hard enough for a woman as reasonable and open minded as Pevara, with the Elaidas it's as hopeless as expecting Moridin to embrace the Way of the Leaf and praying the Creator to give him rebirths to the end of times.

For the time being the problem is that the Seanchan have their Elaida and Egwene folded into a single person and the champion of non-acceptance of the truth is Fortuona herself. She's the key. Upon learning the truth about sul'dam, she immediately fell back on a position that she can be trusted, she can make the ethical calls, she can decide never to use her power or abuse it. There will be powerful others around her who don't see it this way at all, though. She needs to take the next step and realize it's true of all sul'dam and damane and only those who can't are a danger to the rest of humanity. But she won't take that step without some cathartic events happening to place her in the face of that choice, something echoing Rand's epiphany. Doom, or acceptance. What Tuon doesn't understand is that for centuries the Empire has trusted channellers to use the OP.

With the hand we're dealt right now, it's why I think the simplest scenario is that Egwene targets a rival of Tuon with her information about the sul'dam and Tuon hiding it, and unwittingly gives Ebou Dar a taste of what Mesaana has done to the Tower. It's possible Egwene/Egeanin believes this will convince High Lord Galgan to accept the truth and remove Tuon from the throne and free the channelers if she won't accept the system is a vast sham. She could even have Elayne copy the Binder to offer him as the alternative to the a'dam, telling Galgan of the three oaths. But when their worldview shatters like this - especially when you leave people no choice but to reject out of hand their most ingrained beliefs and prejudices, not everyone by far acts as rationally as you'd expect.

Brandon lost no time, by chapter 11 Mat already learns Galgan is organizing plots meant to fail against Tuon. It will only make it less obvious to see him coming when it will no longer be meant to fail.

It's more a question of how far the plot will progress before Tuon has her epiphany. Will it be found and averted - the horror of what the sul'dam and her just escaped shaking Tuon to the core, or will it start, find Galgan and the Seekers turned against her, many sul'dam and damane already arrested and summarily executed by soldiers around her, before she manages to stop the mayhem and regain control. But even an epiphany wouldn't make her contemplate an alliance with the WT. For that she also needs a serious beating from the Shadow putting her on the brink of defeat, have only one avenue for saving for her people.

If I had to wager, I guess I'd put some of my money on Sheraine playing a role in the final events that will make Tuon decide to go north. Mat too, but a problem is that Mat is hardly a champion of the Aes Sedai. As much as Mat loathes the Seanchan solutions, he trusts Aes Sedai little more than the average Seanchan do. "How much do you really trust the WT and the Dragon?" would be a rather embarrassing question from Tuon for Mat to answer. In TOM he told Moiraine Rand was insane and had half the world at war... Ultimately, it's all the more reasons for Tuon to trust Mat, but he's probably not the one who will push her toward the WT before the Shadow force them both to (and he feels the pull of the Wheel to Rand, which right now he doesn't). He would be insane to advise Tuon to take this path, after he learns she's in the middle of preparing an all out attack on Tar Valon and has already raided it once, after he learns she met Rand and how it went, and the sort of convictions she holds these days.

He's gonna have his hands full with convincing her not to go forward with that, that the other side would fall on her with all their might. Rand expects Demandred to strike South, that seemingly will solve the problem of keeping the Seanchan busy south a while longer.

GonzoTheGreat
12-01-2012, 10:05 AM
Brandon lost no time, by chapter 11 Mat already learns Galgan is organizing plots meant to fail against Tuon. It will only make it less obvious to see him coming when it will no longer be meant to fail.
Tuon knew about those plots in chapter 47 of ToM.

arioch
12-01-2012, 10:35 AM
Tuon knew about those plots in chapter 47 of ToM.

The kind of scenario Dom's drawing, that's the point. She knows about the "keeping her honest" attempts.

David Selig
12-01-2012, 11:36 AM
The new one:

"The right thing had always seemed clear to Galad before, but never had it felt as right as this. Those streaks of light were like indicators on a map, arrows pointing his way. The Light itself guided him. It had prepared him, placed him here at this moment. "

Seems to me Galad's about to die heroically...

Terez
12-01-2012, 11:37 AM
Looks like daily meant daily!

The right thing had always seemed clear to Galad before, but never had it felt as right as this. Those streaks of light were like indicators on a map, arrows pointing his way. The Light itself guided him. It had prepared him, placed him here at this moment.

Edit: This is the second day in a row I have literally woken up and opened up my computer at the moment it came in, neither time realizing it was that time, and both times no one had posted it yet but someone was posting it at the same time as me.

GonzoTheGreat
12-01-2012, 11:38 AM
Galad, meet balefire. Balefire, meet Galad.

sleepinghour
12-01-2012, 11:43 AM
The new one:

"The right thing had always seemed clear to Galad before, but never had it felt as right as this. Those streaks of light were like indicators on a map, arrows pointing his way. The Light itself guided him. It had prepared him, placed him here at this moment. "

Seems to me Galad's about to die heroically...

Or about to shag Berelain. :p I don't think Tor would spoil something as huge as Galad's death.

Terez
12-01-2012, 11:44 AM
I tend to think this is huge. The streaks of light might be Rand with Callandor going down into Shayol Ghul.

SamJ
12-01-2012, 11:49 AM
"The right thing had always seemed clear to Galad before, but never had it felt as right as this. Those streaks of light were like indicators on a map, arrows pointing his way. The Light itself guided him. It had prepared him, placed him here at this moment. ".

Berelain finds a pot of fluorescent body paint in a stasis box? ;)

arioch
12-01-2012, 11:50 AM
What's the closest thing we've seen before in the series evocative of the streaks of light? That swarming sparks in an infinite void metaphoric image that Min always has.

GonzoTheGreat
12-01-2012, 12:07 PM
Maybe Demandred dug up a passenger airliner, and Galad is just following the emergency exit lights.

Dom
12-01-2012, 12:39 PM
The kind of scenario Dom's drawing, that's the point. She knows about the "keeping her honest" attempts.

Exactly.

I wasn't very clear I guess. I didn't mean Galgan already has another agenda (it's too early). I think he's presently acting exactly like Fortuona thinks he does, reminding her he has expectations for the person holding the Throne, that she is under watch. It's perfectly normal among Seanchan, it's a variant on having a Truthspeaker to keep you on the straight path. The Seanchan don't trust power much, and have increasingly exacting standards for those holding it, all the way to the top. They venerate the Empress as an institution, but they keep very close eyes on the woman filling the position.

I meant Brandon set things up with this so Tuon is already aware (and now Mat got similar clues) of Galgan and it's all perfectly normal and expected to her.

It sets up Galgan as someone who's thrown his lot with Tuon, but who won't easily accept any straying from her either, who wouldn't hesitate much to remove her if he believes she's endangering the Empire.

Then it sets things up so, if Galgan were to secretly receive alarming information from Egwene/Egeanin and decided to move against her, signs of a coup might be dismissed by Tuon and her Hand as no more than his usual political games. All the more easily if Galgan's plot involves Seekers (specifically Almurat Mor - this one is very dangerous as he believes Mat is tied to the WT. He linked everything to a plot of Suroth and the WT against Tuon (one that had only remote connections with the truth), but there's no telling what he might come up with if new information seem to show him it's Tuon who was really behind it all, the woman who by going to Karede he helped put on the throne....) and military officers.

It's Mat, who isn't used to this sort of palace false conspiracies and cutthroat games at all, and won't get used to it even after Tuon explains, who stands much better chances never to trust Galgan.

My feeling is that it may be Tylee Kirghan, highly regarded by Galgan right now and a likely person for him to involve in the coup, who may end up betraying his plans when she realizes what it really involves.

I think Galgan's reasoning could turn around this: He's now got proofs the Empress is part of a conspiracy that hid from the Empire the channellers are truly in charge. Seanchan believe channellers are twisted, that they are driven to contests for power between each other. This matches exactly what Tuon is doing: she's marath'damane. Her power rests on other marath'damae. The Shadow is giving them a beating and yet she's failed to have the Dragon serve the Crystal Throne and the Prophecies aren't fulfilled. She's turned the Return into a contest for supremacy against other marath'damane. If the Empire lets her destroy the WT and capture those thousands more damane, the channellers will rule supreme. The a'dam is a sham, it was used to hide the fact channellers held power. The Armies of the Night have never been defeated, they seized control of Luthair's Empire and Luthair's thone.

So, Tuon must not be let increase her power with thousands new damane. She must be removed. The sul'dam, her accomplices or as good as, must be killed, and the damane no one has any way to control anymore as well. The Deathwatch Guards might have to be dealt with too, all the Seekers who can't be trusted to side with the "Illuminated Ones". With this great purge done, the Seanchan would move out of Ebou Dar to join their only real allies: the non-channellers, and defeat all the "armies of the night".

It's totally insane and suicidal, but we've seen even worse happen in history when humans see others as sub-humans. It can be fairly short step from seeing people as a sub-human class to seeing them as rabid dogs or vermin to exterminate. A system like the Seanchan is also terribly fragile under its appearances of strength and stability. Rationality didn't rule the day in the least in Seandaer when Semirhage removed the Paendrags. The whole thing collapsed immediately in a terrible bloodbath and spread to the provinces. Those High Lords and Ladies don't serve the Shadow, but they function with beliefs, methods and a logic that would make any of the Chosen proud. It's no wonder Mordeth nearly had an orgasm when Turak described him the Court of the Nine Moons.

Right now another set up is that Tylee believes strongly they should put an end to the conquest and ally with the North to face the Shadow. Deep down she holds the totally opposite views to the Empress's, and has no hope to influence her, low Blood that she is. She's also held in high regard by Galgan. If sounded carefully to know if she believes the Empress is wrong and her war against the WT must be stopped, if Tylee can be honest, she'd say yes, there are people in the north she believes they can ally with and who aren't subservient to the WT. That makes her likely to be somewhat involved with a plot to end the Return and move north, but when she understands what Galgan really intends, it also makes her very likely to betray him. Tylee is certainly likely to develop affinities with and interest for Mat. RJ also gave her a second (now dead) with an interesting name, that of Mishima Yukio who became obsessed with modern post-war II Japan having fallen in the hands of corrupted elites and who tried a suicidal (and doomed) coup to restore Imperial purity, or inspire it (ended in failure and seppukku, and yes, it's the famous novelist)

And there's the Shadow to throw into that mix... Graendal had started to collect pawns among Tuon's entourage and she's still around. It may well be Lunal Galgan's armies Demandred wants Moghedien to keep an eye on, betraying to him their every moves, planting saboteurs among them etc. There's Liandrin there she can free and use for an assassination. There are recently captured and still untamed Aes Sedai, Shaido Etc.

The Seanchan at this point are a very nice nest of some of the series most corrupted/misguided/nefarious characters walking in the Light... Sevanna, Elaida... They've lost Asunawa but still...

Fortuona and co. are in need of a thorough purging before they can join the North, otherwise the WT might as well put Elaida back on the seat, it would have good chances of being less damaging.

Dom
12-01-2012, 12:53 PM
I tend to think this is huge. The streaks of light might be Rand with Callandor going down into Shayol Ghul.

Something like that, maybe not as momenteous.

Honestly this one falls less into the "teasing" category and a little more in the "spoiler" one. Even if it's not terribly momenteous, it still rings a lot like an epiphany and in the category of stuff I'd have preferred not to have confirmed.

I mean, it's Galad and just his name made something like this more or less expected, but confirmation isn't so cool.

Sort of. :p

Dom
12-01-2012, 12:55 PM
Galad, meet balefire. Balefire, meet Galad.

ROTFLOL!

SauceyBlueConfetti
12-01-2012, 01:40 PM
Moiraine to Nynaeve. Rocky Outcrop's brother got it.
I sense urgency. Lan has been captured and is tortured or severely hurt, Nynaeve is reeling. Moiraine is experienced in passing support through the bond, Nynaeve has never been in this situation.

Moraine to Nynaeve. As she prepares to help Rand she worries for Lan's life if she herself dies. Moraine will offer to take him back.

MountainDancer
12-01-2012, 01:49 PM
About #6, Galad always sides with Egwene, but he has agreed to take direction from Perrin. Egwene wants Galad her help her stop Rand from breaking the seals, but Perrin agrees with Rand. So Galad is torn between Egwene's plea to Galad and his prior oath to take battle orders from Perrin.

Now recall that the sky opens above Rand to let in sunlight where he stands. But I predict that when he goes to Shayol Ghul with the army, that the strange sky there only allows "streaks of light" pointing towards or away from him. Galad will see this and realize Rand is good and should be allowed to break the remaining seals and thus switch his position from Egwene's (who doesn't want Rand to break the seals) to be in agreement with Rand & Perrin (who think the seals need to be broken "to first clear away the rubble")

SauceyBlueConfetti
12-01-2012, 02:31 PM
#2 ----"I should like to hear one of your stories. Perhaps you could tell me of the time your father and you visited Shara?"
I can't believe I am saying this but my reread had m e looking for odd things....

Elayne uses the phrasing, in her own way:
. TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 47 - A Teaching Chamber
"I should like one of them myself," Elayne said thoughtfully. "One of your children, I mean, to marry into the Andoran royal line. ."



I see her saying this to...dear gods I am actually writing this...Valan Luca to distract her during childbirth (I know, I know, I can hardly believe it myself). He speaks of giants in Shara, which is dismissed as exaggerations and showmanship...and wants to tell Elayne the story...
. TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 13 - A Small Room in Sienda
"Boar-horses, Master Luca?" Elayne said. "Where do they come from?" "Giant boar-horses, my Lady" was the ready reply, "from fabled Shara, where I myself led an expedition into a wilderness full of strange civilizations and stranger sights to trap them. It would fascinate me to tell you of them. Gigantic people twice the size of Ogier." He made grand gestures to illustrate. "Beings with no heads. Birds big enough to carry off a full-grown bull. Snakes that can swallow a man. Cities made of solid gold. Descend, my Lady, and let me tell you."


Yet we know there ARE likely giants from Noal's stories as he is a truly reliable source:
TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 28 - News in a Cloth Sack
Noal seemed harmless enough. According to Harnan, he told stories before going to sleep, stories that Harnan and the other Redarms seemed to swallow whole, even the one about some place called Shibouya, supposedly beyond the Aiel Waste, where women who could channel had tattooed faces, over three hundred crimes carried a penalty of death, and giants lived under the mountains, men taller than Ogier, with their faces on their bellies.


Luca HAS been to Shara.

Khoram
12-01-2012, 03:37 PM
Welp, Felix will be pleased with that. I think.

Sid
12-01-2012, 05:47 PM
Exactly.

I wasn't very clear I guess. I didn't mean Galgan already has another agenda (it's too early). I think he's presently acting exactly like Fortuona thinks he does, reminding her he has expectations for the person holding the Throne, that she is under watch. It's perfectly normal among Seanchan, it's a variant on having a Truthspeaker to keep you on the straight path. The Seanchan don't trust power much, and have increasingly exacting standards for those holding it, all the way to the top. They venerate the Empress as an institution, but they keep very close eyes on the woman filling the position.

I meant Brandon set things up with this so Tuon is already aware (and now Mat got similar clues) of Galgan and it's all perfectly normal and expected to her.

It sets up Galgan as someone who's thrown his lot with Tuon, but who won't easily accept any straying from her either, who wouldn't hesitate much to remove her if he believes she's endangering the Empire.


I've commented on this before in another thread, but I still believe that this whole idea of it being somehow OK giving the Empress any challenge whatsoever, and openly on top of it, is a complete fabrication from the new author. Would the DWG's just sit around while Galgan openly hires people to assassinate the Empress, may she live forever? Even if he immediately then takes them out? I don't think so. There's no evidence through KoD that suggests that any Seanchan person considers overstepping themselves a viable option, save for Semirhage almost forcing Surath to think that way, and talk of 'rebellions' immediately put down on the fringes of the mainland Seachan Empire. I always took those as people that didn't want to be part of the Empire anymore, not taking it over and unseating the Empress herself. Nobody wants the Empress dead. Nobody jokes about killing the Empress. According to Karede, the very idea that the DotNM (much less the Empress, may she live forever) was in danger from the Ever Victorious Army went beyond horrific and was 'a world gone mad'. Karede is a very politically savvy fellow who sees deeply, as Mor points out. The whole Galgan thing and Tuon shrugging it off reeks of pounding a square plot into a round hole just to create an easy way for things to work out.:mad:

It's not really the point of this thread I guess, but it irritates me as much as the bullshit of the big T'A'R channeling fight in ToM. I just don't like key plot points built on a foundation of sand.

greatwolf
12-01-2012, 08:18 PM
I've commented on this before in another thread, but I still believe that this whole idea of it being somehow OK giving the Empress any challenge whatsoever, and openly on top of it, is a complete fabrication from the new author. Would the DWG's just sit around while Galgan openly hires people to assassinate the Empress, may she live forever?


Maybe it wasn't necesary to have written it that way. The intrigues among the blood revolve around power play and Tuon would have seen Galgan as a potential rival in any case. But a minor one. The Empress must have had people reporting on all of her own children. They were the most likely to attempt anything. Suroth says this clearly in KoD. And same could have been achieved in ToM without using a plot device like that. It tends to make Galgan appear wasteful.

But FWIW, I don't think the DWG would see it as a threat. He was performing a "patriotic duty" of rooting out traitors and threats to the empire. Why is he a threat?

But what I think is missing is Tuon's response to travelling. Even before the raid on the WT, Travelling must have been considered as among the main goals of the effort. How to get it and how to ultilize it would/should be a priority for the seanchan.

And I expect Tuon to think immediately of two things: keeping the weave secret(especially from those of the blood who may have damane) and recovering the damane on the main continent.

By now, large forces of damane would be in the field under various memebers of the blood, generals and men of power in seanchan. Enough to cause a lot of destruction and death. A multisided civil war that could lead to the destruction of the empire that is now Tuon's.

Securing the mainland would not be possible without travelling. But with it, Galgan and the army HQ would have to decide what to do next: what are the priorities? Secure the mainland first and more damane for the last battle? Or get the DR before TLB? Or deal with the treacherous AS? (who can travel as well)

Once Galgan knows of Travelling, he becomes a threat that cannot be ignored. All he needs is a suldam who knows the weave. He can get hold of damane from the mainland and could have the empire secure while Tuon is busy fighting TLB. Same goes for anyone with access to suldam.

So Galgan's little display would not have been allowed at all. He'd be dead sooner than he could think. If my history is anything at all, dictators never take kindly to any opposition. Especially after they've just taken the reins of power.

FelixPax
12-01-2012, 09:01 PM
Yet we know there ARE likely giants from Noal's stories as he is a truly reliable source:


Luca HAS been to Shara.

Well, there are 53 giant(s) references in WoT series between tEotW to KoD books actually. Below are 8 quotations....


Tales of Mosk the Giant, with his Lance of Fire that could reach around the world, and his wars with Alsbet, the Queen of All.

Source: The Eye of World, Chapter 4 'Gleeman'


The cart creaked down the wide road toward the city, toward tower-flanked gates. The wagons of a merchants’ train rolled out of those gates, under a vaulting archway in the stone that could have let a giant through, or ten giants abreast.

Source: The Eye of World, Chapter 35 'Caemlyn


Did Mosk and Merk really fight with spears of fire, and were they even giants?

Source: The Shadow Rising, Chapter 20 'Winds Rising'

Another sound floated to Perrin, like silk sighing across silk. It sent shivers along his bones. Louder, a distant giant’s exhalation, rising, falling, rising higher. “Hurry!” he shouted. “Hurry!”

Source: The Shadow Rising, Chapter 27 'Within the Ways'

The plaza looked as if everything had been picked up and flung about by a mad giant.

Source: The Shadow Rising, Chapter 58 'The Traps of Rhuidean'

There was no time for thought, though. Like rapid beats on a giant drum, bolt followed bolt, marching through the Maidens until the last struck the base of the tower in an explosion of splinters the size of arms and legs.

Source: The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 44 'The Lesser Sadness'

He had meant to let a rabid lion roam the streets long enough to frighten everyone, but the lion had become a giant that moved like lightning.

Source: Lord of Chaos, Prologue

Then there's Birgitte's offhand comments about a fighting a giant alone.

If I said I was going to climb a glass mountain and kill a giant with my bare hands, they’d just ask if I needed any help on the way, and they would not expect me to.”

Source: Lord of Chaos, Chapter 40 'Unexpected Laughter'

Cabadrin
12-02-2012, 06:20 AM
Androl & Pevara sending a distress signal from the Black Tower. Galad is scouting around Caemlyn.

GonzoTheGreat
12-02-2012, 07:06 AM
Androl & Pevara sending a distress signal from the Black Tower. Galad is scouting around Caemlyn.
That one makes sense, and is also actually interesting.

Res_Ipsa
12-02-2012, 11:22 AM
"Nobody travels the Ways," Ituralde said, aghast.

Hmm, military plans or upon learning that the Trollocs are using them . . .

GonzoTheGreat
12-02-2012, 11:46 AM
Or upon learning that the Ogier intend to use that route.

Terez
12-02-2012, 12:51 PM
I think the most likely answer is simply that he's learned the Shadowspawn went through the Ways to attack Caemlyn.

Ixade
12-02-2012, 01:17 PM
I have been rereading in prep of the release. When rand sets a trap at the Androl way gate he mentions it will be used again when Haman would have sealed it. I think it is strategy either to get into the blight for the last battle or getting troops behind the army at tarwins gap.

Terez
12-02-2012, 01:19 PM
Rand doesn't need the Ways for that kind of strategy; he's not using Shadowspawn. There's a reason none of the Lightsiders have used the Ways since Traveling was discovered. It could be a way to get into Caemlyn under the dreamspike, but there's not much else use for them on the Light side.

Dom
12-02-2012, 07:54 PM
Or upon learning that the Ogier intend to use that route.

Hmmm. that's not a bad idea.

Maybe not "The Ogier" but their representatives at the Stump trying to rush back to their respective stedding to mobilize everyone.

It could also turn out what happened in Caemlyn so burden the Ogier with guilt and shame they decide to chance Machin Shin and enter the Ways to hunt down and kill Shadowspawn.

Mind you, this can also be simply a surrounded channeler deprived group whose last chance of survival is to escape through a Waygate. That's mostly possible if Perrin or maybe Gaul or Ogier are present with Ituralde. Doubtful anyone else would suggest that solution.

Dom
12-02-2012, 08:35 PM
I've commented on this before in another thread, but I still believe that this whole idea of it being somehow OK giving the Empress any challenge whatsoever, and openly on top of it, is a complete fabrication from the new author. Would the DWG's just sit around while Galgan openly hires people to assassinate the Empress, may she live forever? Even if he immediately then takes them out? I don't think so.

Brandon has about the subtlety of an sledgehammer with politics, but he's not invented all of it.

I agree what Galgan does goes too far, and it's way too flagrant, and RJ likely wouldn't have done it quite this way, Galgan's "ordinary moves" would have been more subtle, more believable as almost a court ritual. It's implied he hires assassins the DWG and Seekers have no trouble to find.

Turak however hinted as early as TGH at that sort of cutthroat Court life that made Mordeth salivate with envy at the potential of controlling such an Empire, and Tuon spoke of it too.

Tuon has also explicitly referred to the exacting standards expected of the Empress, the DotNM from the Blood. Before we got Tuon's POVs, the Empress appeared untouchable and almighty. And the imperial institution is. But Tuon revealed the position is far, far more dangerous to hold than we might have thought.

So yeah, it's exaggerated by Brandon, or rather not very well executed, but it's been foreshadowed since WH or so that Tuon's position was precarious, that any position in the Seanchan empire is, and the higher up the more dangerous it becomes.

We got a large hint of it when Tuon did one little mistake, one immature and incontrolled reaction with a damane, and considered herself no longer fit to appear publicly in her role as Daughter of the Nine Moon. She didn't wait to be told, she took on the veil until she considered she had atoned enough for her mistake unfit of the position she held in the Empire. And it was more than image, she considered acting as DotNM when she wasn't worthy of it/stained by her mistake was detrimental to the Empire.

"On the heights, all paths are paved with daggers." is a saying of Seanchan origins.

The paradox in the Seanchan system is that the more powerful you get, the more constrained you are, the more watched, and the more challenged.

So what Galgan does is over the top and lacking the subtlety Jordan usually gave the Seanchan, but it's not in contradiction with the general idea.

And it's also the hand we're dealt, so we sort of have no choice but to go along with it. Fortuona is one of the character who lost a lot from the switch of author. She must be about as hard to write as Mat or so. RJ made her really special and unpredictable.

She is his most interesting and best written character in the late series, IMO, and one of the most "unique" in the series.

She's somewhat less interesting with Brandon, though not as bad as his Mat.

Sid
12-02-2012, 10:09 PM
Tuon has also explicitly referred to the exacting standards expected of the Empress, the DotNM from the Blood. Before we got Tuon's POVs, the Empress appeared untouchable and almighty. And the imperial institution is. But Tuon revealed the position is far, far more dangerous to hold than we might have thought.

So yeah, it's exaggerated by Brandon, or rather not very well executed, but it's been foreshadowed since WH or so that Tuon's position was precarious, that any position in the Seanchan empire is, and the higher up the more dangerous it becomes.

We got a large hint of it when Tuon did one little mistake, one immature and incontrolled reaction with a damane, and considered herself no longer fit to appear publicly in her role as Daughter of the Nine Moon. She didn't wait to be told, she took on the veil until she considered she had atoned enough for her mistake unfit of the position she held in the Empire. And it was more than image, she considered acting as DotNM when she wasn't worthy of it/stained by her mistake was detrimental to the Empire.

"On the heights, all paths are paved with daggers." is a saying of Seanchan origins.

The paradox in the Seanchan system is that the more powerful you get, the more constrained you are, the more watched, and the more challenged.

So what Galgan does is over the top and lacking the subtlety Jordan usually gave the Seanchan, but it's not in contradiction with the general idea.

And it's also the hand we're dealt, so we sort of have no choice but to go along with it. Fortuona is one of the character who lost a lot from the switch of author. She must be about as hard to write as Mat or so. RJ made her really special and unpredictable.

She is his most interesting and best written character in the late series, IMO, and one of the most "unique" in the series.

She's somewhat less interesting with Brandon, though not as bad as his Mat.

See, the DotNM is not the Empress. The DotNM is the current 'favored one' of the Empress. The Imperial family vies for her favor, and she chooses her successor. She chooses the best and brightest, so there are no fools in charge of the Empire. Nobody attacks the Empress, directly or indirectly, because they know they will be immediately destroyed. Turak resists handing the Empress the entirety of the Westlands by blowing the HoV in fear that she may perceive some threat in doing his job too well. It's never been foreshadowed that it was at all dangerous to be the Empress. Anyone else in high places, yes. Her, no. The Crystal Throne likely has something to do with it, but nobody actually knows that.

Galgan's actions are so far-fetched and Tuon's reactions to them are so utterly wrong that I wonder if the people coming up with them actually read any of the Seanchan sections of the text. Plus, we have commoners speaking of assassination attempts on the Empress (may she live forever) in Ebou Dar like it was some ordinary thing. I just absolutely despise everything about this whole plot. The subtlety of a sledgehammer indeed.

I know it's the hand we've been dealt, but it's utterly disappointing to have to swallow it.



For the latest daily snippet, I like Dom's idea of the channeler (or Traveling) deprived group with someone who's been through them before. I cannot see anything else that would cause using them to even be a consideration. I'd typed up something similar but saw the post above the one I quoted had it basically the same. I'd include Faile, Bain, and Chiad as possible candidates for suggesting it though.

If Ituralde actually was around for the end of the Great Stump when Ogier were sending representatives to the various stedding, then there would almost certainly be someone with him that could make Gateways for them. I'd guess he was just hearing about it later if that is the circumstances for the quote.

Cabadrin
12-03-2012, 03:36 AM
Lan and his Malkieri, fleeing from the Blight Stedding where they have been imprisoned.

boy
12-03-2012, 04:29 AM
I honestly think the whole "noone would dream of going against the empress" is basically an early bookism.

RJ had Galgan hiring (and admittedly then killing) assassins, but it's more than just that.

We're told the Ever Victorious Army is a highly experienced military, because large swathes of Seanchan are constantly in rebellion. There are several references to nobles trying to set up their own kingdoms. Battles are mentioned where both sides are using hundreds of Damane, and hundreds of thousands of troops.

I think RJ just changed his mind about how unified the Seanchan were, and the guy at Falme (I'm in the library so have no references, sorry) is just an unusually loyal retainer.

GonzoTheGreat
12-03-2012, 05:27 AM
His name was Turak:
"You seem almost eager," Turak said, and Fain barely suppressed a wince. "I will tell you why I will not sound the Horn of Valere, or even keep it, and perhaps that will cure your eagerness. I do not wish a gift of mine to offend the Empress by his actions; if your eagerness cannot be cured, it will never be satisfied, for you will never leave these shores. Do you know that whoever blows the Horn of Valere is linked to it thereafter? That so long as he or she lives, it is no more than a horn to any other?" He did not sound as if he expected answers, and in any case, he did not pause for them. "I stand twelfth in line of succession to the Crystal Throne. If I kept the Horn of Valere, all between myself and the throne would think I meant to be first hereafter, and while the Empress, of course, wishes that we contend with one another so that the strongest and most cunning will follow her, she currently favors her second daughter, and she would not look well on any threat to Tuon. If I sounded it, even if I then laid this land at her feet, and every woman in the White Tower leashed, the Empress, may she live forever, would surely believe I meant to be more than merely her heir."
The "meant to be more than merely her heir" suggests that attempting to replace the empress is indeed not unheard of.
On the other hand, there is the Crystal Throne, which gives the empress a very special status and inspires (compels) loyalty unlike that given to any other noble. Of course, Tuon hasn't sat on the Crystal Throne, so she lacks that bonus. Which may very well be more important than she realises.

Mimi
12-03-2012, 08:37 AM
How did Ituralde even know of the Ways? I did not think their existence was common knowledge.

GonzoTheGreat
12-03-2012, 09:29 AM
In TSR, both Faile and Gaul knew enough about the Ways to understand that they could be used for travel and that they were very dangerous. If they could have learned that, then having Ituralde too know about the Ways is not a big stretch.

Dom
12-03-2012, 09:43 AM
His name was Turak:

The "meant to be more than merely her heir" suggests that attempting to replace the empress is indeed not unheard of.
On the other hand, there is the Crystal Throne, which gives the empress a very special status and inspires (compels) loyalty unlike that given to any other noble. Of course, Tuon hasn't sat on the Crystal Throne, so she lacks that bonus. Which may very well be more important than she realises.

Possibly. She now has the means to fetch it, if it comes to matter (but does it compels loyalty? I was under the impression it rather created a feeling of great awe).

Turak isn't the only one who mentionned plots. Suroth too mentions among the High Blood organizing plots and schemes can be a sign of friendship and respect for your strength.

She's shocked to hear of the Empress's death, but she immediately builds a scenario in her head. It had to have been one of Tuon's sisters, and that sister has to be the one who got Tuon killed, and now Suroth would be forced to apologize for her death to the very woman who had her killed. It's quite clear plots against the Empress by the High Blood are not quite unheard of. By previous reflections she's had about the impossibility to assassinate Tuon because of the Seekers and DWG, it's implied a plot against the Empress would have to involved some of those, and those only answer to the Imperial family (of which Turak was a member, not Galgan or Suroth).

As for an example of the exacting standards expected of the Imperial Seat, Tuon herself recalls an episode when an Emperor had been slapped by his Speaker of Truth in front of the whole Court... and did nothing in reprisal.

Karede was also tasked by the Empress to keep an eye on the High Blood. She feared some of them might be tempted to carve their own little empires in the Westlands.

Tuon even states her father, likely Prince of Ravens, died of a "bad wager".

And the most telling signs the Empress is hardly untouchable are of course the Deathwatch Guards, damane and the Seekers she's always surrounded with.

But all those are real plots, except some Suroth referred to which are pretty much the sort of "court ritual" false plots Galgan hatches against Fortuona.

Fortuona's position is likely more fragile than any of her predecessors in recent memory. The picture that's painted is that only the Paendrags, the Imperial family, dared plot against one another - and did so viciously, and below the High Blood constantly plots against the High Blood etc. In Seandar, Tuon was surrounded with her family - her most dangerous rivals, but in Ebou Dar she's the last of her line. People like Galgan are now one step away from taking the throne for themselves (and he comes from a prestigious line, as a retainer of Luthair himself). The game has changed. It would have been stupid to show too much strength or defiance to the Empress before - that would brought against all those who stood between her and you against you. Unless you plotted with an member of the Imperial family who could corrupt DWG/Seekers personally loyal to them (and Suroth suggested it's quite conceivable, though we know the sentence for DWG cut at that would be to be skinned alive) plotting against the Empress was suicidal. Not anymore, Tuon is the last Paendrag. She's in the position of Moridin - if he showed any weakness and they thought they could get away with it without incurring Shai'tan's wrath, any of the Chosen wouldn't hesitate to move against him, no more than they hesitate to challenge him or show some defiance, as much as they dare. The Seanchan high circles show the same outlook/logic.

Brandon pushed the changes around Fortuona a little too far (too bluntly, anyway), but the general idea hasn't changed.

Dom
12-03-2012, 09:54 AM
How did Ituralde even know of the Ways? I did not think their existence was common knowledge.

They are common knowledge in more worldly circles than... Emond's Field.

Elayne, all the Shienarans in TGH knew of them. So did even Min. They know of them, and the stories they're forbidden or deadly

Dom
12-03-2012, 09:59 AM
I think RJ just changed his mind about how unified the Seanchan were, and the guy at Falme (I'm in the library so have no references, sorry) is just an unusually loyal retainer.

He was more than that. He was a member of the Imperial family standing (low) in the official line of succession. He was the highest standing Seanchan noble we had met before Tuon. And he made it clear he had to thread carefully lest the Empress or her children saw him as a threat.

maacaroni
12-03-2012, 10:04 AM
Or upon learning that the Ogier intend to use that route.

We have a winner!

Dom
12-03-2012, 10:20 AM
I think the most likely answer is simply that he's learned the Shadowspawn went through the Ways to attack Caemlyn.

On second thought it sounds like the best suggestion so far.

Ituralde is probably too knowledgeable not to react more specifically if told Ogier are using the Ways.

It's very tempting to see big stuff in those quotes, but so far I notice we can pretty muchfind some early-ish book explanations for all of them... They all seem chosen for their potential to puzzle and generate speculation rather than to be very meaningful. They're not going to give us a map to big plot points. We won't undestand them now, but as we read the book itself we'd puzzle out much in advance. E.g.: Ituralde and Ogier find themselves trapped in a city, they have too few channellers to evacuate, the Shadow surrounds them. Who will have forgotten the "Nobody travels the Ways" quote when this scene starts, if not even when this episode starts?

Except perhaps the Galad quote that seems more momenteous, and even then... this could very well be a first POV at Merrilor (chapter 3-4 even! Perrin returning to his camp, seen from Galad's POV). What would never have felt as right to Galad? Being at Merrilor, about to confront the Shadow. Shooting stars to the North in the sky cleared by Rand's presence.... like arrows on a map pointing him toward Tarmon Gai'don.

Res_Ipsa
12-03-2012, 10:59 AM
I have exams until the 15th, but when I get the chance I will go back and start adding a general consensus response to each day if there is one.

Res_Ipsa
12-03-2012, 12:02 PM
Egwene strode around a frozen pillar of glass in her dream. It almost looked like a column of light. What did it mean? She could not interpret it.

Pretty straight forward except for the "frozen pillar of glass."

GonzoTheGreat
12-03-2012, 12:05 PM
She has found one of Galad's signposts. But rather than taking the hint and flying into the sky (as she actually could do, in the Dream), she strides around it for a while.

Dom
12-03-2012, 12:11 PM
Glass column/pillar that look like a column of light.

The obvious real thing that comes to mind is the Glass Columns in Rhuidean.

Aiel related dream?

fionwe1987
12-03-2012, 12:20 PM
I think Rhuiden column. But I wonder why she's having a Dream about them. Warning that they are showing something different. Warning that someone may come back bearing false tales of what they show?

alleluia_cone
12-03-2012, 12:21 PM
My initial reaction was that this portended another visit to Rhuidean but that seems so very overdone at this point. So my guess is that this means Egwene should listen to whatever the hell Aviendha tells her because it's right.