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RondAlThor
11-30-2012, 11:49 PM
Hi all,

I was just re-reading it today and this line jumped out at me:

Chapter 2:

"I'll pick out the stitching when I get a chance," he muttered. He had seen women picking out embroidery when they had made a mistake or changed their mind on a pattern and it did not look very hard."


The context of this is that Rand is annoyed and surprised that all the new clothes that Moiraine had commissioned for him have dragon's stitched on them for the sigil.

Do you think this foreshadows what Rand will do at the Last Battle? ie precision removal of weaves of the Bore?

I recall another similar type of reference when Aviendha picked apart a weave from a gateway, which people (including Moridin) thought was impossible. Another foreshadowing for picking apart the weaves that created the Bore?

This is my first post, so please take it easy on me if this idea is a complete joke in your opinions :D

Dom
12-01-2012, 12:08 AM
Hi all,

I was just re-reading it today and this line jumped out at me:

Chapter 2:

"I'll pick out the stitching when I get a chance," he muttered. He had seen women picking out embroidery when they had made a mistake or changed their mind on a pattern and it did not look very hard."


The context of this is that Rand is annoyed and surprised that all the new clothes that Moiraine had commissioned for him have dragon's stitched on them for the sigil.

Do you think this foreshadows what Rand will do at the Last Battle? ie precision removal of weaves of the Bore?

I recall another similar type of reference when Aviendha picked apart a weave from a gateway, which people (including Moridin) thought was impossible. Another foreshadowing for picking apart the weaves that created the Bore?

This is my first post, so please take it easy on me if this idea is a complete joke in your opinions :D

Welcome.

There are various references to picking out embroidery.

Personally I believe a woman has a defter touch for such delicate work. :p

I think it's Nynaeve's contribution. She will lead the circle with Callandor. Her job will be to remove the last remnants of LTT's sealing, and what Shai'tan has holding them (the remnants would prevent any successful "sealing"/removal of the Bore, IMO).

I think the precursor for what Nynaeve will have to do is her Healing of the Taint's effects in TOM, except remember her reaction to delving Rand's brain? The Bore will be worse.

RondAlThor
12-01-2012, 12:18 AM
Thanks Dom..

Here's another casual reference to undoing things:

Whatever can be done, can be undone.
-Rand al'Thor, to Colavaere, A Crown of Swords, Chapter 5: A Broken Crown

Now that you mention it, I do seem to remember many references to embroidery in the series, but I can't offhand recall any other ones about picking out embroidery. Anybody remember anything? I think it would be interesting to look at these altogether.

FelixPax
12-01-2012, 05:45 AM
Hi all,

I was just re-reading it today and this line jumped out at me:

Chapter 2:

"I'll pick out the stitching when I get a chance," he muttered. He had seen women picking out embroidery when they had made a mistake or changed their mind on a pattern and it did not look very hard."


The context of this is that Rand is annoyed and surprised that all the new clothes that Moiraine had commissioned for him have dragon's stitched on them for the sigil.

Nice quotation finding there! Indeed this should be one of the major plot outcomes for AMoL book, in IMHO. What themes and plot aspects pop out?


Pattern = Dreams; Dreams; World; Worlds
Questions of Identity, who is the Dragon Reborn?
Change (Coming of a new age, a new dream, and a dream abandoned)
Falsehoods and Truth (e.g. Rand not the Dragon.)
Creator of this World's Dream called Earth, is a female (e.g. Nynaeve al'Meara).
Life and Death (e.g. Rand and Ishamael/Mr. Death will be removed from this Pattern/World/Dream.)


Do you think this foreshadows what Rand will do at the Last Battle? ie precision removal of weaves of the Bore?

In a way, it shows that Moiraine indirectly helps set-up Rand al'Thor to rule Tear. Clothes matters. Which ironically is one thing that the Dragon Prophecies speak against, if Andoran High Seat Abelle is accurate. Moiraine's doing has aided the setting up of a 'false Dragon'.

In terms of plot and narrative in AMoL book, Rand will get his chance to "pick out the stitching"... die and let the real true Dragon soul do his work.

Also at this point in the epic, Rand hasn't accepted his coming 'death'.

Theory: Before Rand al'Thor dies he will learn who the real Dragon is. How? He can view the real Dragon through Matrim Cauthon very eyes. Rand's already seen the Dragon soul, at Rhuidean.


Regarding the sealing of the Bore, Lews Therin did NOT seal the Bore in the prior Age.

Who did?
Beidomon did.

Who is Beidomon is this Age?
The Dragon Reborn soul.
Who is that?
The son of Gareth Bryne and a former Queen of Andor, of the Norwelyn line (symbol the silver salmon): Valan Luca (not likely his birth name).



Gareth Bryne's first son of three, with a Queen of Andor (Norwelyn line), should have been the 'First Prince' of Andor: Valan Luca.
Gareth Bryne's second son of three, with a Queen of Andor (Mantear line), would have been the 'First Prince' of Andor: Luc Mantear. Luc is presently half of Slayer, along with Isam.
Gareth Bryne's third son of three, with Queen of Andor (Trakand line), made a promise to become the 'First Prince' of Andor. However Gawyn Trakand by his actions, is not acting as a 'First Prince' of Andor. He's acting like a Warder only presently.


Gareth Bryne's grandson by Blood is Rand al'Thor, because Garth Bryne is the father of Tigraine Mantear. Tigraine gave birth to Rand al'Thor on the second location of Dragonmount. Meanwhile Valan Luca was born on the first location of Dragonmount, by Queen Norwelyn. Remember Dragonmount was moved previously, most likely by an Aiel Wise One Dreaming it to be. (Dragon Prophecies speak of "slopes", not "slope".) Thus, Gareth Bryne is the common blood tie between both Valan Luca and Rand al'Thor.


Conclusions

Rand will accept he is not the Dragon Reborn. Valan Luca will take his position.

Valan Luca can become the First Prince of Andor.
The People of the Dragon is his sword, "an army is a general's sword--Gareth Bryne quotation, says Elayne Trakand." Additionally Morgase Trakand writes of Gawyn as a "living sword" in a letter. Gawyn is a 'First Prince', as is Valan Luca by Blood.

The Dragon Reborn soul will seal the Bore in this Age. As Beidomon once opened the Bore, Valan Luca will re-seal the Bore.


The Prophet

Regard that above text quotation, an additional "stitching" will be removed: Who the Prophet is identified as.

Masema will lose his title in the histories, as he has already lost his life. Another individual will become "The Prophet" of the true blind Dragon Reborn.

Who?
Logain. Yes, Logain. (Hypothesis)
The Prophet, and future King three times over.

Prophet for the Dragon
Rand had Masema; Valan has Logain.

Court Bard for the Dragon
Rand had Asmodean; Valan should have 'Young Asmodean'. (Hypothesis: Mat & Asmodean each reborn. Olver = Young Mat; Asmodean = Young Asmodean, with The People of the Dragon.)

halo6819
12-01-2012, 08:36 AM
What ever happened to the hidden Ogier Drakfriends on the shadow coast?

Dom
12-01-2012, 08:42 AM
Now that you mention it, I do seem to remember many references to embroidery in the series, but I can't offhand recall any other ones about picking out embroidery. Anybody remember anything? I think it would be interesting to look at these altogether.


They're not always easy to track down with simple keyword search.

I sort of misspoke when I added "picking out", I rather meant there's a very great deal of embroidery references, implying it's delicate. The TGH one is the most interesting, because it's ironic. It's "easy" to pick it out, but it's still more delicate then Rand assumes, if you don't want to rip it apart.

I think other quotes were never that specific again (nothing stands out in my memory, anyway, except for the un weaving scenes with Aviendha/Elayne). Perhaps there were related comments from Cadsuane about embroidery being delicate work etc. I think Nynaeve herself missed a row or lost count when knitting once). I vaguely remember a (disastrous) embroidery episode with Min that was funny, considering how she's the one trying to puzzle out the "clear the rubble first" Herid Fel comment. If I'm not mistaken, she's trying to repair a pattern she's made and makes it worse.

The scene in TOM where Nynaeve picks out the threads of taint from Naeff's brain is a good read for comparison's sake.

FelixPax
12-01-2012, 08:30 PM
What ever happened to the hidden Ogier Drakfriends on the shadow coast?

Ever notice the eerily "quietness" along the base of the Shadow Coast Mountains, at the opening of Knife of Dreams book in Galad's point of view? That's one huge (classical literature) clue, something dangerous will occur soon there.

Where do you think those Trollocs in Ebou Dar came from, who attacked a Seanchan army?


That theory still stands:

Demandred has placed armies of darkfriends, trollocs, shadow Ogiers (two steddings) etc in the Shadow Coast Mountains. Their the ones Demandred set in place to back stab Semirhage's pawns the Seanchan in Taraban, Amadicia, Altara in fact. (The Two Rivers too, via the Mountains of Mist in route for Whitebridge's river crossing.)


What did Demandred's armies of Trollocs & Ogiers arrive in the Shadow Coast? Waygates via Aridhol; Portalstones. Sammael and Padan Fain Mordeth each independently learn of this, though Fain doesn't grasp the whole of it, until Sammael becomes one with the Black Wind. (Fain's Murandy plans were one outcome of not knowing about Demandred's armies. Later Fain mentions giving those Murandy plans up, in the Blight.)


Demandred's armies existence in the Shadow Coast Mountains is one unmentioned reason why Amadician's are leaving the land in a Morgase Trakand point of view. Plus who drove a horse team through this area about this time? Valan Luca did, the true blind Dragon soul (separate theory).


What will destroy a good part of Demandreds' armies?

Avalanche(s) in the Mountains of Mist created by Rand al'Thor, to protect his homeland from Demandreds' armies. (Not to mention the Black Wind, coming out of multiple Waygates in the same mountains.)



Tangent

It's a bit silly of a wordplay, however if one mixes up the letters of 'Avalanche'... one can find 'A valan che' or 'A Valan friend.' In other words, Rand al'Thor's avalanche's are Valan's friend. Doesn't hurt that Valan Luca's has (most likely) caused avalanches in the recent past (killing darkfriends in a village of the Black Hills) too. See Siuan and Elaida's point of views for clues to Valan's past actions & later gentling. Also see Moiraine's and Elayne's point of views.


The use of Anagrams in narratives, is of many commonalities between Robert Jordan's WoT series and Robert Heinlain's works. One of the more thematic WoT anagrams is 'Espara Soman' character name, which is 'Epona Maars'.

'Epona' in WoT terms is related to Nynaeve al'Meara's character, who is a protector of horse, mules etc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epona).
'Maars' in WoT terms is the where Dragonmount's first location was. The same slope Valan Luca was born at. The same circular volcanic crater filled with water, which Valan Luca is heading towards as of AMoL Prologue.


As a character Espara Soman is a Healer from Almoth's Plain, who fled the Whitecloaks and the Seanchan Forerunners. She has arrived in the Two Rivers, see Faile's point of view in Lord of Chaos, Prologue. Espara's former village is referred to in TGH book.

Tedman
12-02-2012, 01:44 AM
After reading these two posts from Felix all I can say is... The Matrix is all around you, it has you, its in these very posts.

Still fascinating to read.

Lii
12-02-2012, 03:06 AM
Nice quotation finding there! Indeed this should be one of the major plot outcomes for AMoL book, in IMHO. What themes and plot aspects pop out?


Pattern = Dreams; Dreams; World; Worlds
Questions of Identity, who is the Dragon Reborn?
Change (Coming of a new age, a new dream, and a dream abandoned)
Falsehoods and Truth (e.g. Rand not the Dragon.)
Creator of this World's Dream called Earth, is a female (e.g. Nynaeve al'Meara).
Life and Death (e.g. Rand and Ishamael/Mr. Death will be removed from this Pattern/World/Dream.)




In a way, it shows that Moiraine indirectly helps set-up Rand al'Thor to rule Tear. Clothes matters. Which ironically is one thing that the Dragon Prophecies speak against, if Andoran High Seat Abelle is accurate. Moiraine's doing has aided the setting up of a 'false Dragon'.

In terms of plot and narrative in AMoL book, Rand will get his chance to "pick out the stitching"... die and let the real true Dragon soul do his work.

Also at this point in the epic, Rand hasn't accepted his coming 'death'.

Theory: Before Rand al'Thor dies he will learn who the real Dragon is. How? He can view the real Dragon through Matrim Cauthon very eyes. Rand's already seen the Dragon soul, at Rhuidean.


Regarding the sealing of the Bore, Lews Therin did NOT seal the Bore in the prior Age.

Who did?
Beidomon did.

Who is Beidomon is this Age?
The Dragon Reborn soul.
Who is that?
The son of Gareth Bryne and a former Queen of Andor, of the Norwelyn line (symbol the silver salmon): Valan Luca (not likely his birth name).



Gareth Bryne's first son of three, with a Queen of Andor (Norwelyn line), should have been the 'First Prince' of Andor: Valan Luca.
Gareth Bryne's second son of three, with a Queen of Andor (Mantear line), would have been the 'First Prince' of Andor: Luc Mantear. Luc is presently half of Slayer, along with Isam.
Gareth Bryne's third son of three, with Queen of Andor (Trakand line), made a promise to become the 'First Prince' of Andor. However Gawyn Trakand by his actions, is not acting as a 'First Prince' of Andor. He's acting like a Warder only presently.


Gareth Bryne's grandson by Blood is Rand al'Thor, because Garth Bryne is the father of Tigraine Mantear. Tigraine gave birth to Rand al'Thor on the second location of Dragonmount. Meanwhile Valan Luca was born on the first location of Dragonmount, by Queen Norwelyn. Remember Dragonmount was moved previously, most likely by an Aiel Wise One Dreaming it to be. (Dragon Prophecies speak of "slopes", not "slope".) Thus, Gareth Bryne is the common blood tie between both Valan Luca and Rand al'Thor.


Conclusions

Rand will accept he is not the Dragon Reborn. Valan Luca will take his position.

Valan Luca can become the First Prince of Andor.
The People of the Dragon is his sword, "an army is a general's sword--Gareth Bryne quotation, says Elayne Trakand." Additionally Morgase Trakand writes of Gawyn as a "living sword" in a letter. Gawyn is a 'First Prince', as is Valan Luca by Blood.

The Dragon Reborn soul will seal the Bore in this Age. As Beidomon once opened the Bore, Valan Luca will re-seal the Bore.


The Prophet

Regard that above text quotation, an additional "stitching" will be removed: Who the Prophet is identified as.

Masema will lose his title in the histories, as he has already lost his life. Another individual will become "The Prophet" of the true blind Dragon Reborn.

Who?
Logain. Yes, Logain. (Hypothesis)
The Prophet, and future King three times over.

Prophet for the Dragon
Rand had Masema; Valan has Logain.

Court Bard for the Dragon
Rand had Asmodean; Valan should have 'Young Asmodean'. (Hypothesis: Mat & Asmodean each reborn. Olver = Young Mat; Asmodean = Young Asmodean, with The People of the Dragon.)

Damn. Did you get even crazier when you were on hiatus?

FelixPax
12-02-2012, 07:14 AM
Damn. Did you get even crazier when you were on hiatus?

No distractions. Only a slightly different method for interpreting RJ's WoT epic, compared to my prior 30+ re-reads over twenty plus years.

"The strangest people marry, sometimes.”--Mat Cauthon. (CoT, Chapter 29)

“ ‘More fools know Jak Fool than Jak Fool knows.’--Elyas Mach era. (TPoD, Chapter 10)


Logain.



Logain will visit Tear in AMoL book.
Logain will become known as the (next) 'Prophet of the Dragon', in the next Age.
Logain will become a King of parts or the whole of what is presently: G-heal-din, (Northern) Amadicia, Illian.
Logain shall become a 'First-Brother'.
Logain shall gain more female & male family ties, royal ties, in a grand 'group marriage'. (I'd have been shocked at this narrative idea in WoT, if this was the 1990s still.)
Oh, yes and Logain should 'wed' Morgase Trakand in AMoL book. Toss in Gareth Bryne too. Even I'm a bit surprised at this.
Upcoming non-shocking future Logain 'wedding' partner include Matrim Cauthon.


Who knows? I don't.
Is Logain is somehow previously related by Blood to Tigraine, Gareth Bryne, Lan, and Beslan?


WoT Angrams

Tigraine, "I get rain".
Perhaps, Tigraine, "Rain I get".


Oaths: Aravine Carnel; Faile t'Aybara

“You forget, my Lady, I was there when you were all put in white.” Aravine studied her a moment, then suddenly took Faile’s hands and turned them so that her own hands were between Faile’s palms. Bending her knees just short of kneeling, she said quickly, “Under the Light and by my hope of rebirth, I, Aravine Carnel, do pledge my fealty and obedience in all things to the Lady Faile t’Aybara.”

Source: CoT, Chapter 9 'Traps'

The Oath Aravine Carnel makes to Faile t'Aybara is of interest, for a few reasons:


Who Aravine Carnel is. Her true identity.
Who Aravine Carnel will most likely 'marry' in AMoL Book. Ties that bind, or trap.
The very names spoken in this Oath.



To the first, Aravine Carnel (alias) is most likely a former High Seat and now widow of King Ailron of Amadicia.
Whom Aravine 'marries' in AMoL book is of great importance, as that future husband will become King by marriage. Aravine is one of the last nobles of Amadicia, who either isn't dead, in jail, a refugee nor gave an Oath to the Seanchan Empire. If Aravine Carnel weds Logain, as Tuon wed Matrim Cauthon earlier. Logain is automatically a King. Thus bringing together Ghealdin, (northern) Amadicia, and The Two Rivers as one new nation in a new Age.
Third, Aravine specifically spoke of Lady Faile t’Aybara in giving her Oath, not her Saldaean legal name of Zarine Bashere.

There is prior evidence pre-dating Brandon Sanderson's volumes of WoT, which suggest that Faile will need to alter her preferred name of choice. Why?

Perrin Aybara is connection to the Darkfriend Suroth & the Forsaken Semirhage in Fortuona's eyes. Perrin should be an enemy, in the eyes' of the Empress Fortuona. Stealing Masema's letter from Suroth and using it has a grave price. In essence Faile needs to create a distance between herself and Perrin to survive. Using the name Zarine Bashere will aid in her survival, her and Perrin's new little creation(s) survival.

How this shifting of names, related to Aravine Carnel's Oath given to Lady Faile t’Aybara?

If Lady Faile t’Aybara becomes Zarine Bashere, would not any Oath given to Faile t'Aybara become null? (Unsure.)

As Zarine Bashere could never seek to enforce this prior oath, as long as Zarine-Perrin's new little creations exist and need protection. Zarine need protection. Aravine needs protection, relative independence to become a Queen again.


One alternative possibility is Zarine Bashere suggests to Aravine Carnel to 'wed' Logain and Matrim Cauthon along with others, in AMoL book, so to fulfill Faile t'Aybara side of that Oath to Aravine Carnel and unknowingly to, Faile, the nation of Amadicia:

Taking Aravine’s hands between hers, she spoke as quickly as the other woman had. “Under the Light, I do accept your pledge and will defend and protect you and yours through battle’s wrack and winter’s blast and all that time may bring.

Source: CoT, Chapter 9 'Traps'--Faile POV

If so, this also means Zarine Bashere will have to give Aravine Carnel her Old Jewels back. The same jewels which Sevanna stole from Aravine in Cairhien previously.

Under the 2nd possibility, Aravine Carnel does not necessarily want to wed Logain and Mat, however Faile t'Aybara/Zarine Basher can order Aravine to wed each of them! Protection, obedience and duties, it underlies this situation.

Under the 1st possibility, Aravine Carnel can choose to act alone to protect herself and Amadicia's future, by marrying Logain and Matrim Cauthon of her own free choice.

It's a question of Agency. How many degrees of freedom of choice does one have? What's the relative balance of pushing and pulling for Aravine Carnel's character arc?


Names: Carnel

What gem is the alias name Carnel, similar to in the World of Time?

Carnelian, from the Stone in Tear.

The great table in the middle of the room, ornately carved and gilded on edges and thick legs, had been meant for gatherings of the High Lords. Moiraine sat in one of the throne-like chairs, with the Crescent Banner of Tear worked into its towering back in gilt and polished carnelian and pearlshell. Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne sat close by her.

Source: The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 56--Matrim Cauthon POV


Who shall rule Saldaea together, in the next Age?

Queen Tenobia Bashere Kazadi t'Mitsobar
King/Prince Beslan t'Bashere Kazadi

Queen Tenobia has given an Oath to the 'Dragon Reborn'. Meanwhile King Beslan gave an Oath to Empress Fortuona, and an earlier promise to Matrim Cauthon.


What's Faile fate?
A reduction in status.
Not heir to a kingdom, whether Saldaea and or The Two Rivers.
Trapped in lies and ties, she can never break.