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View Full Version : Demandred = Janduin


rand
12-18-2012, 09:42 PM
So, I've been toying with this idea for a little while now. I'm not really behind it 100% myself, but I think it's a good alternative to Roedred. It's really the only viable theory I've seen (aside from Roedred) now that we know Demandred does have an alias.

I had a bunch of quotes and stuff to post, but a lot of it changed with all the pre-release stuff for aMoL. Then I got really busy with school. Anyway, I just wanted to post the general idea of my theory before spoilers start coming out.

First, I know Janduin is dead. It doesn't matter. The circumstances of his death are obscure enough that if someone shows up claiming to be Janduin, I don't think anyone would question him too much.

Based on clues we have, we know Demandred is leading an army. We know it's likely something big (ie, probably channelers and not just any old group of soldiers). The fact that he doesn't recognize ageless Aes Sedai faces likely means he's not in Randland. We also know that he's posing as someone specific, who we've never seen before, but have (presumably) heard of. Based on all that, Janduin is pretty much the only leader of armies outside of Randland that we know of but have never seen on screen. He's the closest thing the Aiel ever had to a leader.

There's probably plenty more that I'm forgetting to say, but I just wanted to post this kind of half-assed theory now in anticipation of spoilers soon. I know this is hardly air tight. And, like I said, this is kind of a reaction to Roedred. I by no means disbelieve that theory--in fact I fully admit it is the most likely. However, I also find it very boring and anti-climactic. Therefore, I came up with, as I said, the only other option I could really think of.

Dajoran
12-19-2012, 03:34 AM
Janduin was killed by a person who looked like Tigraine, which we can postulate was Slayer in his Luc Mantear skin.

It is not obscure. It was witnessed and reported.

"...Those who returned said he was killed by a man, though. They said Janduin claimed this man looked like Shaiel, and he would not raise his spear when the man ran him through."

Dom
12-19-2012, 08:11 AM
The Aiel saw Janduin die indeed, and spotted the man who killed him.

Anyone returning as Janduin would cause much, much suspicion right away (enough to check right away if he uses a MoM, most probably!), and there's basically no way Demandred could credibly pull off Janduin among the Taardad very long. Too many among them who've known him too well, incl. Rhuarc.

And I can't see how a most suspicious Janduin returned from the dead at the start of Tarmon Gai'don could possibly grab power away from the Car'a'carn and the clan chiefs, and convince the WO to support him or even trust him.

rand
12-19-2012, 10:24 AM
Yeah, I guess I forgot to mention...I think he's leading the male channelers, not all the people in the Waste. I think Ishamael gave Demandred leadership over them at some point.

And, the fact that Slayer killed Janduin (or didn't kill him--I don't really believe it, but there's a possibility he's still alive) directly connects him to the Town.

I should also add that this may be why there seems to be so much of a parallel between Demandred and Taim. It could have been a clue that Demandred was doing the same/similar things as Taim (but on a bigger scale), but a lot of people misinterpreted it as Taim=Demandred.

Great Lord of the Dark
12-19-2012, 10:56 AM
It pleases me greatly to see that the Demandred sweepstakes continue, in defiance of all evidence. While you will never sway me from my position that RJ was wrong and Demandred IS Taim, I would like to nonetheless throw you my moral support.

The idea that Janduin did not actually die is surely not new, but opens intriguing possibilities.

Theoryland is not about being right, it is about debating until your opponent caves in. I suggest you acquire a megaphone.

Dejandred?

Dajoran
12-19-2012, 11:19 AM
Yeah, I guess I forgot to mention...I think he's leading the male channelers, not all the people in the Waste. I think Ishamael gave Demandred leadership over them at some point.

And, the fact that Slayer killed Janduin (or didn't kill him--I don't really believe it, but there's a possibility he's still alive) directly connects him to the Town.

I should also add that this may be why there seems to be so much of a parallel between Demandred and Taim. It could have been a clue that Demandred was doing the same/similar things as Taim (but on a bigger scale), but a lot of people misinterpreted it as Taim=Demandred.

But, if Demandred is in charge of the Aiel Channelers of The Town, he would not need to take the guise of an Aiel to do it, he's Chosen.

Regardless if he is in charge of them or not, there would be no need to keep a random Aiel ex-clan chief alive for a couple of decades waiting on the Forsaken to be released, just so that you could pull off a control gambit by taking the role of this random Aiel ex-chief.

The Aiel that go into the Blight already have a connection to The Town, the shadow expects them to send their Male Channelers there to find glory, so they scoop them up 13x13 them and hand out the Red Veil uniforms and tooth files.

GonzoTheGreat
12-19-2012, 11:23 AM
The Aiel that go into the Blight already have a connection to The Town, the shadow expects them to send their Male Channelers there to find glory, so they scoop them up 13x13 them and hand out the Red Veil uniforms and tooth files.
Wouldn't they be expected to do that last themselves, using the One Power?

Dom
12-19-2012, 11:52 AM
It could have been a clue that Demandred was doing the same/similar things as Taim (but on a bigger scale), but a lot of people misinterpreted it as Taim=Demandred.

I think the similarities are more a question of personalities, and situational, and also important, thematic.

For a while, Taim was Jordan's way of exploring the degrading relationships between Rand and his underlings and the effect on people whose personality just isn't made to be second, or had a problem falling behind a leader. This starts with LOC, and it's really fairly bad by COT/KOD, when Cadsuane was down to devices like breaking the fear Rand inspired by humilitating him in public like an ill-mannered boy.

Men like Bashere, Dobraine, the Aiel follow leadership not easily (especially when the leadeship was really quite bad), but they understand well why there can't be twelve leaders each going in a different direction either, and are more concerned with duties and service than ambitions.

Jordan meant Taim's arc to evoke what LTT has done wrong with Barid Bel Medar and his other WOS underlings who left him for the Shadow. Taim like Bel Medar never accepted his place, he went to Rand already corrupted, I'm sure we'll find out.

Logain however joined the BT certainly expecting more respect and a better treatment from Rand. Logain is another who is ambitious and likes followers looking up to him, though in a more unassumed way then Rand, or Taim or Demandred. Logain is more a natural leader for real.

Logain is like the other side of RJ exploring the Demandred/LTT relationship, at least presumably we'll see Logain hanging to his convictions and duties to the end despite his rather obvious dislike of Rand (Rand hasn't gained much respect from Logain, deservedly) and the shabby treatment Rand gave him. Rand was so grating with Logain, he sort of provoked Logain into a show of pride that turned into a pissing contest. Logain has also seemingly continued, perhaps more actively than before, to gain the loyalty of the Asha'man. All to the good, since he's obviously the one who is their true leader, but we may see him show independence toward Rand before the end. Not betrayal, but probably some show of putting his foot down and showing Rand the Asha'man aren't puppets he can take for granted, no more than the WT sisters are. The Asha'man, for instance, could surprise Rand and side with the AS against him on some matters. Etc.

We'll see what RJ do next, but I'm guessing we'll see some Logain/Rand relationship evolution through the LB (Rand's now conscious of his errors with Bel Medar, and presumably with Logain - he'll seek to repair things and rebuild bridges). My hunch is the relationship that will fester and really fast is the one between Taim and Demandred. LTT might blame himself for being arrogant and disrespectful to his followers, leading to betrayals like Bel Medar's, but I think we'll also find out Bel Medar in his place would have been ten times worse, and his leadership of men is exponentially worse than Rand's at his darkest/most tyranical.

sleepinghour
12-19-2012, 12:06 PM
I think the similarities are more a question of personalities, and situational, and also important, thematic.

For a while, Taim was Jordan's way of exploring the degrading relationships between Rand and his underlings and the effect on people whose personality just isn't made to be second, or had a problem falling behind a leader.

Another parallel was Demandred's desire for Ilyena vs. the scene where Taim watches Elayne undress. It made that scene seem a lot more ominous.

rand
12-19-2012, 03:53 PM
But, if Demandred is in charge of the Aiel Channelers of The Town, he would not need to take the guise of an Aiel to do it, he's Chosen.
My thinking was more along the lines that Demandred would impersonate Rand's father out of hatred for him. Violating Rand's family in such a way would seem like something Demandred would want to do.

Janduin
12-19-2012, 05:37 PM
I find this thread offensive... Demandred is me? Nonsense!

rand
12-19-2012, 11:10 PM
Sorry, dad.

Dom
12-19-2012, 11:29 PM
Another parallel was Demandred's desire for Ilyena vs. the scene where Taim watches Elayne undress. It made that scene seem a lot more ominous.

Indeed. It's another "classic".

We'll see if Taim knew back then Elayne was Rand's lover. Moridin must know from Moghedien, it's quite possible he told Taim, e.g.: to leave her alone because Moridin had plans for her.

I wouldn't be surprised we learn Moridin told Demandred as well. He's promised revenge on Elayne-Nynaeve and all those involved in the bowl of Winds affair. His revenge on Elayne seems especially... elaborate. According to Hanlon, the plan was always to let her win the throne, and now we know there was a plan in place to make her lose her capital. I can't help but wonder if the icing on the cake of that revenge wasn't to reveal to Demandred she's Rand's lover and the mother-to-be of his children, and let him hatch a plan to use her. It was the same agents used by Moghedien who seemed involved, but making Elayne lose Caemlyn might still be the first step of Demandred's scheme for her (I think the second step might be for "King Roedran" to offer her his help with the Shadowspawn)..

Dajoran
12-20-2012, 08:10 AM
Wouldn't they be expected to do that last themselves, using the One Power?

Sorry, I spelt it wrong they are the To'othfi'le a rare dental Ter'angreal.