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Terez
12-21-2012, 08:28 AM
http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/77859-new-mafos/

Only one of them was truly in question, though.

Question: Who was behind the attack on Demira Sedai?
Maria's Answer: Padan Fain and his corrupted Whitecloaks.

Cabadrin
12-21-2012, 07:11 PM
And Verin has not been working with Fain, according to the Nov 2nd, 2010 interview. So she just used the opportunity, then. Odd.
Could there be a way around this?

Terez
12-21-2012, 07:26 PM
Why would you want to get around it? She have anything to do with the attack, but she took advantage of it when it happened. It's not so hard to believe.

Cabadrin
12-21-2012, 07:39 PM
What was Fain trying to accomplish? From his perspective, the outcome seems unpredictable.

And there is that lengthy discussion about Aes Sedai rank explaining why Verin couldn't just take over, as Kiruna did when she arrived.

Terez
12-21-2012, 07:46 PM
What was Fain trying to accomplish?
1. Turn the Aes Sedai against Rand.
2. Turn Rand against the Aiel.

Fain wants to kill Rand, and he'd just failed to do so because Rand was guarded by Aiel. At this point, Rand hasn't yet allied himself with any Aes Sedai; attacking Demira with fake Aiel was a good way to try to make sure that didn't happen.

Verin doesn't have to be in charge to make things go her way. As Merana observed, Verin skillfully guided Demira to actually suggest the Mirror of Mists fiasco herself.

frenchie
12-21-2012, 07:56 PM
1. Turn the Aes Sedai against Rand.
2. Turn Rand against the Aiel.

Fain wants to kill Rand, and he'd just failed to do so because Rand was guarded by Aiel. At this point, Rand hasn't yet allied himself with any Aes Sedai; attacking Demira with fake Aiel was a good way to try to make sure that didn't happen.

Verin doesn't have to be in charge to make things go her way. As Merana observed, Verin skillfully guided Demira to actually suggest the Mirror of Mists fiasco herself.

Even more reason to love Verin.

Cabadrin
12-21-2012, 08:02 PM
Why would Fain assume the Embassy Aes Sedai would be taken in by the clumsy Aiel disguise? Only 20 years since the Aiel War, and Aes Sedai have long lives. Verin could have known none of them had any direct knowledge of the Aiel.
The most likely outcome would be that Rand and the Embassy would realize they had a common enemy. A bonding experience, having a common enemy.

Terez
12-21-2012, 08:20 PM
Even more reason to love Verin.
Indeed.

Dom
12-21-2012, 08:21 PM
1. Turn the Aes Sedai against Rand.
2. Turn Rand against the Aiel.

Fain wants to kill Rand, and he'd just failed to do so because Rand was guarded by Aiel. At this point, Rand hasn't yet allied himself with any Aes Sedai; attacking Demira with fake Aiel was a good way to try to make sure that didn't happen.

Verin doesn't have to be in charge to make things go her way. As Merana observed, Verin skillfully guided Demira to actually suggest the Mirror of Mists fiasco herself.

I would even say that considering Fain apparently "can't be more insane and still functions" - there's a method to his madness to an extent, but only to an extent - there's not necessarily a deeply rational plan behind his all actions in Caemlyn. He bumped into Rand when he was set on getting revenge on the TR by alerting the Queen's Guard but rather found al'Thor holding the city, he was pissed off at Rand and his Aiel. Mordeth also hates Aes Sedai viscerally, and AS presence has hindered him before.

Plenty of reasons to push Fain's buttons. Knowing it's him for sure, it sounds motivated most by petty revenge/rage than anything.

I did always like my old theory that Verin was behind it, though it's mostly the second part - how she used the attack - which I liked a lot. Whether she had arranged it herself or not in the first place I wasn't so sure of, it was part of the theory yet pointed out as probably extreme in the days when I was sure she wasn't BA.

My original motive for chasing Rand away and destroying the embassy in one blow has even survived the TGS reveal: I was sure Verin did that to protect the secret of Alanna's bond from the other Aes Sedai. She wanted Rand away before he made a slip, complained about what Alanna did to him to the embassy, or Alanna slipped. All that changed is that Verin's worries concerned above all the Black Ajah. She learned enough about the Rebellion - that Sheriam was in charge - to fear what would happen if the secret of Alanna's bond reached them.

Verin did what she could. She had a very rough patch in that part of the story! She destroyed the embassy, more or less managed to take charge, but had sent Rand into a more immediate BA threat, and then she got caught when Bera and Kiruna showed up and outranked her. She ended up compelling all those involved she could reach to minimize the damages and risks. Then Cadsuane showed up.

Really a rough patch.

Terez
12-21-2012, 08:34 PM
I would even say that considering Fain apparently "can't be more insane and still functions" - there's a method to his madness to an extent, but only to an extent - there's not necessarily a deeply rational plan behind his all actions in Caemlyn. He bumped into Rand when he was set on getting revenge on the TR by alerting the Queen's Guard but rather found al'Thor holding the city, he was pissed off at Rand and his Aiel. Mordeth also hates Aes Sedai viscerally, and AS presence has hindered him before.

Plenty of reasons to push Fain's buttons. Knowing it's him for sure, it sounds motivated most by petty revenge/rage than anything.
Eh, not so sure about that. It was a little too calculated. It's clear they were given orders to lure her into the dark alleyway, wound her critically but leave her alive to tell the tale. In his POV just before the attack, he was frustrated because there was only so much he could do with the tools he had left. He lost several of his Whitecloaks in the failed attempt to kill Rand.

finnssss
12-21-2012, 08:50 PM
Eh, not so sure about that. It was a little too calculated. It's clear they were given orders to lure her into the dark alleyway, wound her critically but leave her alive to tell the tale. In his POV just before the attack, he was frustrated because there was only so much he could do with the tools he had left. He lost several of his Whitecloaks in the failed attempt to kill Rand.

Fain might be chaotic/mad in nature but he's fully capable of elaborate schemes and playing politics. The "trap" he left for Rand being one such way back in tGH-10, not to mention all the alliances he has made through out the series.

Dom
12-21-2012, 09:18 PM
Eh, not so sure about that. It was a little too calculated. It's clear they were given orders to lure her into the dark alleyway, wound her critically but leave her alive to tell the tale. In his POV just before the attack, he was frustrated because there was only so much he could do with the tools he had left. He lost several of his Whitecloaks in the failed attempt to kill Rand.

Oh, I'm sure he meant the AS to believe Rand had attacked them. It's very Mordeth. But then the next minute Fain may have felt the urge/pull of the dagger in TV again and moved on, and once there Mordeth was back with his games, until Fain ruined it by killing a woman to steal the dagger from the vaults. What I meant is that Fain probably didn't calculate or planned this too coherently, as someone like Thom Merrilin might have (or Mordeth, if Mordeth was "dominant" all the time).

If Thom Merrilin had done this, he would have made very sure Elaida learned that Rand has his Aiel murder an Aes Sedai in Caemlyn, because it's the logical next step to having Demira attacked. But that's Fain.. his plans come with an on/off switch.

He's thorn between Mordeth's efforts to build himself a power base and more rational, in a way, devious plans against his foes (the Shadow, the WT etc.), and Fain's far more primitive urges. Fain's urges end up sabotaging Mordeth's plans, or to create "holes" in them.

Fain's fairly chaotic.

Dom
12-21-2012, 09:31 PM
Why would Fain assume the Embassy Aes Sedai would be taken in by the clumsy Aiel disguise? .

Fain is insane. He probably knows of black-eyed Aiel tales like everybody, he gave them black-eyed Aiel hastily dressed as those who had defeated his attempt on Rand and determined it was good enough.

Terez
12-21-2012, 09:50 PM
And it was.

rand
12-21-2012, 11:35 PM
I was disappointed in this at first (I thought they were real Aiel channelers). I thought the presence of dogs in the alley as well as cats, and the fact that Demira specifically thinks this is odd, pointed to the fact that the attackers were male channelers.

But then I figured it doesn't really matter anyway due to events from the aMoL prologue.

GonzoTheGreat
12-22-2012, 05:44 AM
Why would Fain assume the Embassy Aes Sedai would be taken in by the clumsy Aiel disguise? Only 20 years since the Aiel War, and Aes Sedai have long lives.
Those Aes Sedai who had paid enough attention to Aiel to know that kind of thing might also have known that in the Aiel War, only 4 clans were involved, rather than all of them. If the only Randlanders you've ever seen are Taraboners and Shienarans, then Tairens and Illianers are going to look very un-Randland, unless you realise that you have so far seen only a limited sample. The same could easily be the case with the Waste, which is about the same area as Randland. So it would not be inconceivable that there were differently looking Aiel in the group that now followed Rand, compared to the smaller subset that had followed his father.

Cabadrin
12-22-2012, 06:56 AM
Oh, well. Maria's answer leaves no wriggle room, anyway. I still think it would have made a better story to have Verin arrange the whole thing, but I'm not the author. RJ was doing well enough.

Dom
12-22-2012, 08:05 PM
Oh, well. Maria's answer leaves no wriggle room, anyway. I still think it would have made a better story to have Verin arrange the whole thing, but I'm not the author. RJ was doing well enough.

It's a good example of what I was trying to explain about LOC in another thread (with someone else contributing, I forget who).

It's the book in which chaos dominates. That one character seeks one goal, and another use what he's done to turn it to another purpose altogether fits perfectly the main theme of the book. Nearly all the plans in the book end up taking that path. The whole ending of the book is a giant clash between the various plans of Rand, Galina, Sevanna, Elaida, Mesaana, Demandred, Sammael etc. Egwene's rise was the result of Romanda, Siuan, Lelaine, Sheriam and the Black all having different reasons and different goals by choosing Egwene as Amyrlin. It's the book in which nearly everything the characters do end up having different effects than expected.

Verin engineering everything was a very neat theory (and one I supported for a long time), but it's too clean, too neat for LOC. RJ was going for pandemonium in LOC. Fain attacks Demira, it never reaches Rand's ears because Verin use what he's done to make the Rebel Embassy clash with Rand (probably in fear the BA might learn of Alanna's bond), unknowing he could Travel, her actions rather chase Rand right in the net of Galina Casban in Cairhien, and far from keeping Rand from AS, he ends up with sworn AS all around him, including BA, forcing Verin to make damage control (which ends very badly down the line with Elza).

There's chaos in the whole series, but in LOC it's really everywhere. It's a book where it's better to puzzle out the possible rationale behind individual moves rather than try to look for plans evolving logically or rationally from start to finish.

And not to relaunch that debate here, but it's part of why I thought it made more sense that Sammael had Fel killed for completely the wrong reason (mistaking believing Fel for Asmodean in disguise), which had another effect completely as it convinced Rand Fel had found something important and he was silenced by the Shadow for that, triggering Min's decision to fetch all his books and try to find out what it was - and all this was hidden from the Shadow and still is. LOC is the book where that sort of things constantly happen through the book. Chaos and confusion.

Terez
12-22-2012, 08:20 PM
I love that Sammael-Fel theory and I'm convinced it's true.

Dom
12-22-2012, 09:08 PM
I love that Sammael-Fel theory and I'm convinced it's true.


We'll have to pester Maria about it after the book is out.

I'm pretty convinced the reason why they RAFO this one is that it's hardly the right time to ruin RJ's red herring when the matter of Fel and his information is about to play out.

If the Shadow knew about Fel, they would have taken care of Min and the books by now.

I think the Chosen are way, way too arrogant to even have considered seriously the possibility a third age scholar could have valuable insight about the seals, Bore or the Cleansing. This sort of things fall right in their blind spot. Even Moridin who's not as bad as the others for this. But stilll... He's going to regret very soon not to have bargained for Moiraine with the Eelfinn when he had the chance to get rid of her for good. He seemingly destroyed the Doorway to the Aelfinn on his way out. It's another thing he should have done long ago. That little oversight has cost him the Cleansing and it's about to cost them the Last Battle. And they got "lucky" (well, it will change nothing in the end), Rand could have gone in there post-epiphany with all the knowledge of Sindhol of LTT. They're incredibly arrogant.