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kivo
12-25-2012, 01:30 AM
The Black Tower seems to be setup as a death trap for any army of the Light wishing to assault it. However, a key to successfully routing the Black Tower would be to utilize Forkroot similar to how Perrin did at Malden. In the water supply, Forkroot should neutralize the channelers. Taim, lacking respect for the sword, is unlikely to have enforced the discipline of learning to fight without the power on any consistent basis. A good army such as the Band should be able to overrun the Black Tower under these circumstances. Taim himself should be relatively easy to kill in such an assault, especially if coordinated with Logain and other Light-side channelers not under the influence of forkroot. Taim's arrogance has left him vulnerable to this kind of assault.

GonzoTheGreat
12-25-2012, 04:48 AM
Somehow I don't really see Taim and his cronies do what the Wise Ones did: drink water instead of wine.

Of course, it is possible that forkroot would also work if you put it in wine, but that raises the question: how do you manage to put the stuff in the wine in such a way that it starts to effect all of them at the same time and yet is also effective enough to disable them?

kivo
12-25-2012, 07:34 AM
Somehow I don't really see Taim and his cronies do what the Wise Ones did: drink water instead of wine.

Of course, it is possible that forkroot would also work if you put it in wine, but that raises the question: how do you manage to put the stuff in the wine in such a way that it starts to effect all of them at the same time and yet is also effective enough to disable them?

You know, there's a precedent for the Chosen One solving just this dilema. Merry Christmas!

Whizbang
12-26-2012, 12:42 PM
Yeah, they are vulnerable there. Not much you can do against forkroot if it is in all your water. Boil it, maybe? But, you'd have to know it was there first, or have a standing procedure to boil/filter all water before consumption. That seems entirely too menial for Taim and his group to concern themselves with.

The AS not directly in the control of Taim seem to be willing to learn the sword and do the hard work, but they are not the target anyway. It should be easy enough to form an alliance with the "good" ashaman beforehand. Taim and Logain seem to do their own thing, and mostly ignore each other.

Weird Harold
12-26-2012, 04:03 PM
...a key to successfully routing the Black Tower would be to utilize Forkroot similar to how Perrin did at Malden. In the water supply, Forkroot should neutralize the channelers. ...

Where does the Black Tower get its water? Malden was vulnerable because its water supply came from outside its defensive perimeter -- by a couple of miles, IIRC. I don't recall any mention of streams or rivers near or through the Black Tower, so I'm guessing that the water supply is from one or more wells. Dosing one or more wells inside a defended perimeter is probably as difficult as a frontal assault.

You are correct that Logain's Faction would have a distinct advantage over Taim's faction if channeling could be blocked, but using Forkroot doesn't look like the answer.

Enigma
12-26-2012, 04:19 PM
Not to mention even if you could get to the water having them all drink at the same time is problamatic. The Black Tower seems pretty regimented and I doubt if they all sit down to eat/drink at the same time.

I'm sure if some of them start staggering and complaining that they can't channell the rest will get a bit suspicious.

kivo
12-26-2012, 08:40 PM
Where does the Black Tower get its water? Malden was vulnerable because its water supply came from outside its defensive perimeter -- by a couple of miles, IIRC. I don't recall any mention of streams or rivers near or through the Black Tower, so I'm guessing that the water supply is from one or more wells. Dosing one or more wells inside a defended perimeter is probably as difficult as a frontal assault.

You are correct that Logain's Faction would have a distinct advantage over Taim's faction if channeling could be blocked, but using Forkroot doesn't look like the answer.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zLF7UMyLc_E/Sc1BtDsxj9I/AAAAAAAAAbo/zsXiK9xWp7Y/s1600/ANDOR_CAEMLYN_001.jpg

That image shows the Black Tower in relation to Caemlyn FWIW. Not clear on where the water would come from, but it is very near Caemlyn so I would imagine it would not be much different than how Caemlyn gets its water?

Not to mention even if you could get to the water having them all drink at the same time is problamatic. The Black Tower seems pretty regimented and I doubt if they all sit down to eat/drink at the same time.

I'm sure if some of them start staggering and complaining that they can't channell the rest will get a bit suspicious.

To be fair the problem of having them all drink at one time and someone getting suspicious existed at Malden too.

One of the better arguments against this approach is that it is simply boring to solve a problem twice the same way in a story. However, Taim's arrogance coming home to roost in his Black Tower being overrun by professional soldiers while his Ashamen are either unable to channel or vastly outnumbered in terms of the number of them able to channel by Logain's.

Olver_is_a_Forsaken
12-26-2012, 10:47 PM
REALLY NICE MAP

Where did you get this map?

In my head I always picture the Black Tower to the North of the city... I have no idea where I got that impression from.

kivo
12-26-2012, 10:56 PM
Where did you get this map?

In my head I always picture the Black Tower to the North of the city... I have no idea where I got that impression from.

I got it off google images but a little research credits the 13th Depository (http://13depository.blogspot.com/) blog.

Terez
12-26-2012, 11:11 PM
It's one of Dom's maps. He and I were just discussing them the other day; he actually got some info about where to place things from Brandon, Wilson and Alan.

Also, the Black Tower has its own wells. I found a quote for that once because I also had the forkroot theory but it's one of those things that's hard to search for so maybe I'll find it again later. The Black Tower is only on screen so often. I did find one about the Asha'man using the Power to haul water, but the one I'm thinking of has wives at the village wells IIRC.

GonzoTheGreat
12-27-2012, 04:59 AM
Also, the Black Tower has its own wells. I found a quote for that once because I also had the forkroot theory but it's one of those things that's hard to search for so maybe I'll find it again later. The Black Tower is only on screen so often. I did find one about the Asha'man using the Power to haul water, but the one I'm thinking of has wives at the village wells IIRC.
Gay marriage?

Four women, all but one in her middle years, were hanging wash on a pair of lines, and nearly a dozen children, none older than nine or ten, played among the chickens. There were men about, too, most doing chores. Twenty-seven of them, though in some cases it was a stretch to call them men. Eben Hopwil, the skinny fellow pulling up a bucket of water from the well, claimed to be twenty and was certainly four or five years younger. ...
That's from the introduction of Taim to the farm, which later was renamed by him "Black Tower".
So there is at least one well in the area, and where there is one, there are probably more by now.

Dom
12-29-2012, 10:03 PM
Just to clarify a few points.

The info I got from Wilson concerns only Emond's Field. He gave me a few pointers, namely old maps of Charleston, to refine the map I had made from the book's descriptions (and mind you, Wilson was just telling me what he believed RJ envisioned, e.g: the street on which Mat's farm is located was based on a specific street or area (where Harriet's chilhood house was) and to look at pictures he sent me links to to look what the back alleys look like and how close the houses are to one another etc., and where the Inn was on main street, but the Green was more like that park than the town square etc).

From Alan/Brandon I got stuff that's mostly not on the maps I've published at this point (Alan confirmed at a signing my placement of Malden was close enough, contradicting Brandon who first had told the friend who attended that signing he thought it was too far south and east). What I got from Brandon via Ken are a few locations in Murandy/Ghealdan and various locations on Almoth and in Arad Doman (Graendal's fortress, the manor, the stedding, Dalruna... that sort of things).

I'd really should go through my notes for the map to play this safe, but the placement of the Black Tower south of the city was determined by info from the books. The first clue (and the only one I recall from memory) came from a LOC description of the location mentioning the dirt road leading to the city (the direction to the city is mentioned)

IRRC, we (by we, I mean Linda who helped a bit with the research and with her critical commentaries on the drafts as it progressed) couldn't establish for sure if it was west or east of the FM road, but I can't recall what made us settle for the eastern side as more likely. The size (of the BT) and distance from the walls was calculated from the descriptions in the books (a bit under two leagues, IRRC) and matched to the scale of the map, which was established (IRRC) primarily by a comment made by Elayne giving the exact perimeter of the outer walls of the city (she said something like "there was x leagues worth of walls to man"). I remember we were surprised by the proportions once rendered visually (the BT might be quite visible from Caemlyn's walls but maybe it's partly hidden from views, and the city from the BT not so much as there are woods standing in between) I don't remember why I didn't put that scale on the map as I did on several others, but I most likely have the reference scale I've used in the original file.

The original Farm had a wells. They must have dug many more since. There's no lack of water underground around Caemlyn (which provided the city's reservoirs) and in this area in general. It's the best farmland in Andor.

It shouldn't be possible to replay Malden there, unless from inside the walls, and even then it's very doubtful there's a central reservoir as opposed to several wells, making any such plan highly unpractical.

The other huge problem: forkroot is from the south. The WT obviously has some supplies (probably not that large, and sent from the south before the Seanchan invaded), but a very great deal of the Seanchan's supplies were used by Perrin/Tylee. Large scale use of forkroot Malden-style probably isn't even an option anymore this season.

it is very near Caemlyn so I would imagine it would not be much different

It's not that close, it's just quite big (and so is Caemlyn). It's over 4, probably over 6 miles away from the city ("less than two leagues", ie: less than 8 miles). I think I settled arbitrarily for 6 or 7 miles on the map or RJ would have said "over a league" or "a little over a league" instead).

Caemlyn has several underground huge cisterns (Elayne has shown Aviendha two of them. They're so big Elayne says the other side look like a forest of columns and shadows), alimented from a pair of underground rivers running beneath the city. I didn't find enough information to try to locate the cisterns, though my guess would be the three big circular/oval "buildings" - the one not far outside the northern gate of Old Caemlyn could be an older one, perhaps Ogier-made, meant to supply the original Caemlyn, the two north-west might be newer ones added to supply the New City. But this is all purely speculative/educated guesses (it may well be they aren't visible of Eliza's maps mine is based on). At some point there was something that looked like it could be foreshadowing the cisterns might be poisoned during TG, but it seems likely this was just RJ giving us a clue about Malden.

greatwolf
01-05-2013, 06:33 AM
If an assault on the BT is necessary, why not use Sa'angreal to shield the entire area and send in conventional troops? That might affect "no fly zone" i mean the dreamspike too. Unless the shadow is ready with some outside backup that can take on the really powerful sa'angreal of the FoL, it should be a simple op.

It might also be possible to blanket the area with a weave that would neutralize the occupants like putting them all to sleep or something like that and then they wake shielded.

Of course that would require cooperation between the WT and Rand or Rand finding some strong female sa'angreal among the Rhuidean or Tear caches. And the realization and willingness on Rand's part to deal with the BT. He has enough on his plate not to want to get involved.

Yet the "extra time" that the last two books have created means Rand might actually get to steal Logain's glory and lead the planning and rescue of the BT himself.

GonzoTheGreat
01-05-2013, 06:41 AM
Yeah, just send in Weiramon to lead a cavalry charge, that'll sort things out.

Weiramon
01-07-2013, 01:33 PM
Aye, if that traitorous Ablar fellow should usurp the loyal Lord Taim's authority, a brief sally by Horse should put things right. No doubt the walls are riddled with gaps, and Ablar's lackeys will quail before a display of lances.