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Terez
01-05-2013, 11:13 PM
I'll combine those listed so far at DM, including some of my own notes, and I have one more to add.

p 131 (herid)

"He cannot hear what we say?"
"No," Pevara said.
(First Oath)


p163

Egwene: "Who? Moridin?" (how does she know of his existence?) (Some suggested Verin's notes, but why not mention it?)

p309

"....Is it Power-forged?"
"I don't know," Rand said.
(In TGS, Min thinks "It had been Power-forged, he claimed. He seemed to know things about it he did not share.")

p342
"I would have the all of the women..."
(extra 'the')

p470

Fortuna should be Fortuona.

p610

Egwene waved a few fingers, sending the other women off, except her two shadows—Gawyn and that Seanchan woman... (Mat POV, he kind of knows Egeanin)

p772

Logain tells Gabrelle to Heal him and she argues with him. She should be compelled to do it immediately.

p490

Finally, one thing that has been bothering me is that Min and Mat are treated as if they were old friends, but they barely know each other. They met in Baerlon, though Rand talked to her more than Mat did. After that they might have met briefly at Falme, but Mat was pretty far gone with the dagger business at that point, and I gather they took off pretty much immediately, while Min stayed by Rand's side. Min wasn't at the Stone at the end of TDR, and she wasn't at the Tower yet when Mat was there. She had already left Salidar by the time Mat got there, and Mat wasn't at Merrilor. When did they get to be so familiar?


Other, iffier things have been mentioned.

Linda
01-06-2013, 12:59 AM
in Chapter 31 of TOM Mat intended to give one of Elayne's ter'angreal to Olver, and the other to Tuon but they weren't in AMOL. In fact, Tuon stole Mat's at one point.

Dom
01-06-2013, 01:19 AM
There were a couple of flag/heraldry errors.

The colors of Andor are wrongly given as Red & Gold instead of Red & White. By Mat. I noted down the page somewhere for that one, but not for the others I noticed. That'll be for a reread.

Terez
01-06-2013, 01:57 AM
There were a couple of flag/heraldry errors.

The colors of Andor are wrongly given as Red & Gold instead of Red & White. By Mat. I noted down the page somewhere for that one, but not for the others I noticed. That'll be for a reread.
From our email conversation:

p. 622. The Red and Gold of Andor? It's white. There was a Silver and white instead of silver and blue Saldaean flag somewhere too, can't recall where.

Terez
01-06-2013, 03:12 AM
p242

"I have not," Egwene said carefully, "and do not." She did not ask what Adelorna meant by using the word "us." She was Green, and Egwene had suspected for a time that she was the Captain-General, the name the Greens gave to the head of their Ajah.
_________
Isn't the title also secret? I suppose Verin could have put it in her notes; it just bugs me.

Linda
01-06-2013, 03:41 AM
13th depository. also Siuan and silviana

Terez
01-06-2013, 03:44 AM
I wouldn't have expected Ajah secrets to be in the 13th Depository. Yukiri had access:

Yukiri managed to stifle a grimace, but only by a hair. Everyone had their suspicions about who headed other Ajahs, else no one would ever have noticed the meetings in the first place, yet speaking those names aloud was rude at best. Anyone but a Sitter might face penance for it. Of course, she and Seaine both knew when it came to Adelorna. In her attempts to curry favor, Talene poured out all the secrets of the Green without being asked. It embarrassed all of them, except Talene herself. At least it explained why the Greens had been in such an outstanding rage when Adelorna was birched. Still, Captain-General was a ridiculous title, Battle Ajah or no Battle Ajah. At least Head Clerk really described what Serancha did, in a manner of speaking.

Linda
01-06-2013, 03:48 AM
Slip ups happen.

I was also going to add that Nynaeve was told a lot as an Accepted by a Yellow who only believed that Nynaeve would choose Yellow. Of course, she was probably sucking up to Nynaeve in advance because Nynaeve would be so high in the ranking. But this is the sort of thing that happens.

Terez
01-06-2013, 09:39 AM
Incidentally, I just noticed that Mat's newfound fondness for the Rahad was fixed before printing. That's one thing to be happy about; I had it in my sig for a couple of months. :D

Dom
01-06-2013, 04:18 PM
Thanks Terez.

The Silver on White could be the Kazadi banner, or Tenobia's personal sigil. We got neither in earlier books.

Aside from the flag, we got House Bashere's sigil.

----

The Red and Gold of Andor is a mistake, though. It should be the Red and White of Andor, or the Red and Gold of House Trakand. Either would be correct.

Terez
01-07-2013, 03:42 AM
p.355 para8

"Leave me go to my fate, Cadsuane," Rand said.

Dom
01-07-2013, 07:51 PM
Not really a big error, but something that feels a bit odd.

In chapter 1, Perrin asks Balwer “That means everyone will be here for the meeting, right?” Perrin asked. “Every major ruler? Tear and Illian?”

It's an odd question to ask, because in the TOM scene set just a few hours before, the Illianers' camp is already organized, and it's on the western side, not far from Perrin's camp. You'd think he'd noticed their arrival with the banners and all.

Another minor thing:

p. 157. It's Egwene's POV, but all of a sudden she's able at first glance to put a name to several Asha'man from Rand's inner circle she's never met. Even "spy reports" couldn't explain this, and these people have arrived just the day before. It's implied Cadsuane's group/the sworn AS have not met Egwene prior to the meeting. She also recognizes Cadsuane as if she's met her before rather than a more believable "a statuesque Aes Sedai who must be Cadsuane" or even better, Silviana murmuring it's her to Egwene or something.

The whole matter that those sisters with the various groups are possibly BA as they've not been tested with the OR was also completely shoved aside in Egwene's POV. She doesn't worry or ponder she needs to arrange for each to be tested.

Davian93
01-07-2013, 07:54 PM
Well, it is Egwene after all.


Serious answer: She trusts Verin's lists and none of those AS are on them?

Still seems like an oversight though.

Dom
01-07-2013, 08:08 PM
Well, it is Egwene after all.

The one from whom even the Forsaken can't keep their new names hidden?


Serious answer: She trusts Verin's lists and none of those AS are on them?

Still seems like an oversight though.

Yeah. She trusts Verin's list to an extent, but Verin didn't get them all and Egwene knows it. Previously in TGS/TOM she wasn very much aware there remain possible unidentified BA outside the WT, where every last woman had been tested, Verin list or not.

A simple "The Hall had brought the Oath Rod and visited every sister in the various camps. No new Black had been found, but it worried her that most of those sisters had not rejoined the Tower's camp. That was a matter for another day." would have done the job.

For Cadsuane in particular it's a specific oversight, whatever Verin wrote about her and she might well have vouched for her in her notes, because Siuan told Egwene she believed her to be Black Ajah. Yet Cadsuane shows up in a meeting discussing the LB plans against the Shadow, and all Egwene worries about is the fact Rand invited her as if she didn't belong to the Tower and it sets a dangerous precedent. A few lines later that he lets Nynaeve do exactly the same as if she also didn't count as a WT representative doesn't ruffle Egwene one bit, however. Not very consistent, but most of Brandon's AS scenes have a few weird things like this in them.

Davian93
01-07-2013, 08:12 PM
There are lots of those types of POV errors and knowledge errors in this book. Just like Rand's pondering of his long-held 'Roedran=Demandred' theory that he's been thinking about for several books.

The Cadsuane one was pretty bad though.


Another issue I had was some seemingly ridiculously bad Deus Ex Machina moments in the book that i dont remember before:

"Oh we had to jump through a gateway in the sky...good thing the AS with us just happens to have a new weave that simulates flying"

Talmanes surviving a Fade wound for hours

Demandred not killing Galad completely but bragging about killing him to the world. Seriously? He wouldnt have beheaded him with that 2nd blow? Trained swordsman know when they've killed someone and when they've just wounded them.

There are several others I cant recall right now but it seemed like Brandon wrote himself into a corner several times just to use some super cool new weave/idea he had.

Dom
01-07-2013, 08:27 PM
There are lots of those types of POV errors and knowledge errors in this book. Just like Rand's pondering of his long-held 'Roedran=Demandred' theory that he's been thinking about for several books.

I vaguely remember a "where was he" moment, but can't track it down. TOM maybe.

Too bad Rand never felt in the mood for tea with Graendal as he was with Moridin, they could have compared their Demandred red herring theories.

I wouldn't have minded Rand having a Roedred theory. He's got a month to gather intelligence, a month with Lews Therin's full memories of Demandred, Roedran was mobilizing and there have been signs of Shadowspawn in the south that Rand's scouts spotted, but Brandon should simply have explained briefly in Rand's thoughts his theory, because it came out of nowhere, and it's worse than in chapter 1, in his POV, he seems satisfied to hear Roedran was coming without this sparking any thought about his little plan for Roedran. Clumsy.

As for the POV errors, they were rife in TGS/TOM too. Maria has corrected many of those that were reported to TJ.


There are several others I cant recall right now but it seemed like Brandon wrote himself into a corner several times just to use some super cool new weave/idea he had.

He did. Some of the new gateway stuff was cool, but some of it indeed felt like deus ex machina, in how they were used. I didn't remember what bugged me in the Galad scenes, but you reminded me.

Brandon also likes his cliffhangers/fake deaths scenes too much, but that's not really a WOT-thing, it's a Brandon thing.

Davian93
01-07-2013, 08:31 PM
Perhaps less Androl/Pevara POVs and more from Rand...I mean, I know Androl/Pevara was critical and all but with limited space, maybe have some more POVs from characters that are actually somewhat major.

Androl/Pevara, while I know several of you liked it, was just a throwaway plotline to do the Black Tower story. Very weak from a literary standpoint IMHO. Instead of that crap, maybe give us 50 pages of whatever the hell Rand was doing between Dragonmount and Merrilor instead. If you want to protect Rand's POV for suspense, that fine...do it from Min's POV or whatever. Give us something.

Dom
01-07-2013, 08:44 PM
Instead of that crap, maybe give us 50 pages of whatever the hell Rand was doing between Dragonmount and Merrilor instead. If you want to protect Rand's POV for suspense, that fine...do it from Min's POV or whatever. Give us something.

The problem is that Rand has done nothing or close. That month was there solely as a device to let Elayne and Egwene get involved and to let Egwene be in the book, and to synchronize everything with Mat and Perrin.

I disliked that device. It undermined the feeling or urgency further than showing Rand's epiphany in TGS had done, and I've been warning people we'd find out nothing justifying such a long wait in AMOL. It was just part of the structural flaws of TOM. I suspected that all along from the fact Brandon had Rand wait until the eve of Merrilor to send Naeff to the Black Tower (then Brandon had Naeff at Merrilor... go figure!).

I know you meant adding events to fill that month, though.

Davian93
01-08-2013, 06:54 AM
The problem is that Rand has done nothing or close. That month was there solely as a device to let Elayne and Egwene get involved and to let Egwene be in the book, and to synchronize everything with Mat and Perrin.

I disliked that device. It undermined the feeling or urgency further than showing Rand's epiphany in TGS had done, and I've been warning people we'd find out nothing justifying such a long wait in AMOL. It was just part of the structural flaws of TOM. I suspected that all along from the fact Brandon had Rand wait until the eve of Merrilor to send Naeff to the Black Tower (then Brandon had Naeff at Merrilor... go figure!).

I know you meant adding events to fill that month, though.

Perhaps he went out to meditate under the Bodhi Tree...

On a side note, as you seem a bit more detailed oriented than me. Approximately how long was Rand fighting the DO in aMoL? It was only a little while for him due to the time distortion but how long was it in the real world?

It'd be interesting if it was one of those 40 days/40 nights type events to see if there are more biblical parallels that RJ used.

It also makes me wonder how long the Strike actually took if LTT went through a similar time distortion issue.

Terez
01-08-2013, 07:19 AM
"She was not anyone on the list of Black Ajah who escaped," Sarene said, taking the arm of her Warder. "She has a distinctive face—so bulbous, and lacking any qualities of charm. I am certain I would remember her."That kind of bugs me, coming from Ms. Beauty Is Illusion who seems unaware that she's the most beautiful woman in the White Tower.

Davian93
01-08-2013, 07:24 AM
That kind of bugs me, coming from Ms. Beauty Is Illusion who seems unaware that she's the most beautiful woman in the White Tower.

Maybe Sarene was just a bit fake then...or perhaps its yet another out of character moment (shocking) for a character in the book.

Terez
01-08-2013, 07:27 AM
It mostly bugs me because out of all the people in the vicinity he could have picked to say that, he picked her, the only character in the entire series for whom the comment makes no sense, aside from those under Hessalam's Compulsion.

Dom
01-08-2013, 08:25 AM
Perhaps he went out to meditate under the Bodhi Tree...

On a side note, as you seem a bit more detailed oriented than me. Approximately how long was Rand fighting the DO in aMoL? It was only a little while for him due to the time distortion but how long was it in the real world?

It'd be interesting if it was one of those 40 days/40 nights type events to see if there are more biblical parallels that RJ used.

I lost count along the way, but "40 days" after Rand enters SG seems long.. but maybe.

It also makes me wonder how long the Strike actually took if LTT went through a similar time distortion issue.

I guess more or less the same, since the concept that Time grows almost to an halt near the Bore is a very old one (eg: Lanfear who was "deep" and didn't aged a day, vs. Aginor/Balthamael who were close to the entrance of SG it seems. They aged very slowly, but they aged).

I guess for LTT and the companions who entered the cavern, it went pretty fast, the time to capture the Chosen who attended the Dark One's meeting and to perform the sealing. In the valley, the huge battle must have lasted longer... days. For the rest of the world???? Longer.

Elayne's arc seemed to have the best timeline pointers and she didn't use Traveling. Several days near the city, the ride to Braem Wood, then as the bridges got readied the ride to the Alguenya, the battle to the north of the city and the trap. After that it's the battle of Merrilor. I'll pay attention to all that as I reread, as I take notes of all the troops movements/battles to make maps anyway.

fionwe1987
01-09-2013, 01:08 AM
That kind of bugs me, coming from Ms. Beauty Is Illusion who seems unaware that she's the most beautiful woman in the White Tower.
This one bugged the hell out of me.

Also, Cadsuane and Sorelia's argument about who Hessalam was. Cadsuane suggested a disguise, but she was around when Rand told Narishma the Foresaken could be resurrected. Why didn't she wonder if Hessalam wasn't a resurrected Foresaken?

Other things I noticed:

1) Why didn't Egwene know before that Vora's Wand had no buffer? In "A tempest of water", we even see her channel "as much as she could hold" in a rage. Wouldn't she have figured at that point that the sa'angreal had no buffer?

2) Why didn't Rand anticipate dream attacks on others? He knew Cyndane was free, and that this was her tactic in the War before. Why didn't he warn anyone of it?

3) When Gawyn was poisoned by the rings, and was shown to be pale and drawn, why didn't Egwene feel any of this through the bond?

4) Not an error, per se, but why, oh why, didn't Elayne ask for a sa'angreal? I doubt the Hall would have balked at lending one to the supreme commander of the Light's forces!

5) What happened to the fact that Elayne's copies couldn't break strong weaves of the OP?

6) In the end, Rand was in a circle with Nynaeve and Moiraine. Why does he say he was holding enough to be almost burned out? How does Logain sense it at Merrilor and think it was more of the Power than at the Cleansing, even?

As for the Cadsuane BA thing, we do see her think later about how she had learned that there were hundreds of BA, not a few dozens as she thought. Whoever told her likely had her take the test with the OR too. I guess we need to satisfy ourselves with imagined stuff like that.

Tsofu
01-09-2013, 01:42 AM
Two things,

First, I can't dig up my pre-sale version of ch.11 but I recall distinctly that Mat doesn't see colors when he thinks of Rand, and in the book, he does. Error corrected.

Second, throughout the WoT, those who die are buried. The last embrace of the mother. Rand is singular in being cremated. Why the departure? Certainly it fits with various mythologies drawn upon for the saga but it's more than a bit jarring for its disharmony with what has come before.

Tsofu

fionwe1987
01-09-2013, 03:04 AM
Second, throughout the WoT, those who die are buried. The last embrace of the mother. Rand is singular in being cremated. Why the departure? Certainly it fits with various mythologies drawn upon for the saga but it's more than a bit jarring for its disharmony with what has come before.

Not true. The Borderlanders bury their dead (at least, the Shienarans do), but other don't. We saw that Tamra Ospenya was cremated.

That said, Kari al'Thor was indeed buried (there's a mention of Rand visiting her grave). So why Tam would cremate Rand is still in question.

TyranAmiros
01-09-2013, 03:46 AM
My read of New Spring suggested that pyres are the custom for either Tar Valon generally or perhaps just Aes Sedai specifically. I think it's meant to be a mark of respect, to be memorialized as an Aes Sedai would.

Terez
01-09-2013, 06:46 AM
I just noticed that Tuon often thinks of Mat as Mat. Seems out of character for her, since names are so important to the Seanchan. She also sometimes thinks of him as Matrim. And then Knotai, of course. I haven't reread those chapters yet; I'm rereading chapter 24 now and noticed the Mat thing.

Terez
01-09-2013, 07:04 AM
p434 4th from last paragraph

Such a strange man he was. Each time she thought she could anticipate him, she was proved wrong.
Shouldn't it be proven? I don't know if this is acceptable; I'm not quite the grammar buff that Peter is...

rusty
01-09-2013, 07:08 AM
around chapter 6 or so, Elanye is going on about how many "miles" woods xyz are form Camelyn.

Terez
01-09-2013, 07:26 AM
WoT world uses both miles and leagues.

https://sites.google.com/site/hcfflibrary/glossary#length

Davian93
01-09-2013, 07:27 AM
WoT world uses both miles and leagues.

Much like medieval England did too.

Dom
01-09-2013, 08:45 AM
4 miles to the league in WOT.


Rusty's right to an extent. It wasn't that common for Jordan to have characters think of the larger distances in terms of miles rather than leagues. The few times Elayne mentioned large distances before she used leagues.

Dom
01-09-2013, 08:54 AM
My read of New Spring suggested that pyres are the custom for either Tar Valon generally or perhaps just Aes Sedai specifically. I think it's meant to be a mark of respect, to be memorialized as an Aes Sedai would.

Tamra had asked for that specific funeral rite in her will, so that doesn't seem to be specifically Aes Sedai.

One of Egwene's dreams showed her aware of the custom of funeral pyres, though Kari was buried. There's no organized church, it seems likely rituals vary regionally, and both burials and funeral pyres are widespread enough not to occasion comment.

Landro
01-09-2013, 10:42 AM
Rand give Elayne an Angreal so she can study how to make them but there's no need for that because she could ask the tower for one to study. I forgot to note the page but later it is mentioned Rand gave her a Ter'Angreal instead

Davian93
01-09-2013, 10:44 AM
Rand give Elayne an Angreal so she can study how to make them but there's no need for that because she could ask the tower for one to study. I forgot to note the page but later it is mentioned Rand gave her a Ter'Angreal instead

Technically, IIRC, he gave her a Seed which is the starting point for an angreal/sa'angreal, not an actual angreal/sa'angreal.

Terez
01-09-2013, 10:53 AM
It was Cadsuane who called it a ter'angreal. p354.

Tedman
01-09-2013, 11:02 AM
p434 4th from last paragraph


Shouldn't it be proven? I don't know if this is acceptable; I'm not quite the grammar buff that Peter is...

My understanding is that it is a past and specific moment in time, so that makes it proved.

If it is a past participle then it is proven.

It is proven that all ta'veren affect chance around them.

Sourced: from my brother, grammar know-it-all.

Dom
01-09-2013, 11:14 AM
Technically, IIRC, he gave her a Seed which is the starting point for an angreal/sa'angreal, not an actual angreal/sa'angreal.

Yup. It's a concept that as far as we know the WT is wholly ignorant of, so Elayne would have struggled to fall on it one day, without the clue this object (a Seed... a ter'angreal of some sort, or another, specific kind of OP object no one remembers about).

The gift scene is nice and all, and I'm sure the concept of Seed comes from RJ's notes, but Elayne's talent for OP objects was another of those things Rand just miraculously learned about...

Brandon was a bit lazy with plot elements like that. He didn't work hard enough to integrate/foreshadow what he wanted to happen. He just contrived a lot of stuff like that. It was a simple thing to have Aviendha bring it up with Rand, but Brandon never developed the knack for introducing all sort of random background elements in his scenes the way RJ was a true master of. He ended up with a ton and a half of small plot holes in this vein.

Ozymandias
01-09-2013, 11:18 AM
2) Why didn't Rand anticipate dream attacks on others? He knew Cyndane was free, and that this was her tactic in the War before. Why didn't he warn anyone of it?

Are we sure he's aware that one can use Compulsion from T'A'R? Are we sure that is allowed? The better explanation for the Great Captains' actions was that they were terrified and had been having nightmares, which caused them to be too aggressive and make mistakes. This was the explanation for Agelmar Jagad, and makes more sense 1.) because I'm not sure Compulsion can be used in dreams, 2.) we do know that people who are strong in the Dream can manipulate others' dreams, and 3.) even if Hessalam/Graendal WAS using Compulsion, it seems unlikely she has the military expertise (and Demandred doesn't have the time) to command such subtle errors. His mistake was being overly aggressive, for the most part, it sounded like.

The Bashere/Bryne mistakes make less sense and smack more of outright Compulsion.

4) Not an error, per se, but why, oh why, didn't Elayne ask for a sa'angreal? I doubt the Hall would have balked at lending one to the supreme commander of the Light's forces!


Maybe she wasn't supposed to be channeling personally? Besides, her forces got all the dragons, so you could make a legitimate case that this was an instance where they were trying to divide their assets as best as possible. Best troops to Tarwins Gap, channelers to Kandor, dragons to Caemlyn, and Aiel to Shayol Ghul?

Landro
01-09-2013, 11:49 AM
1.) because I'm not sure Compulsion can be used in dreams, 2.) we do know that people who are strong in the Dream can manipulate others' dreams

Moggy claims in FoH that some forms of compulsion are even stronger in Tar.
The WO claim that pulling somebody into Tar is evil and was used by the shadow to disrupt key persons on the light side.

kcf
01-09-2013, 11:55 AM
wasn't Graendal locating the generals in TAR and using TAR for traveling and such without issues of knowing where she is, and then entering the real world to do the actual Compulsion? That was my impression.

My understanding is that Graendal doesn't have any particular talent in TAR - not like Moggy, Lanfear and Moridin.

Dom
01-09-2013, 11:58 AM
Are we sure he's aware that one can use Compulsion from T'A'R?

Yes.

I didn't like so much that Hessalam did it all from TAR because it's the sort of tricks that were among the specialities of Lanfear/Moghedien in the WOS, not Graendal. Going for the key people using compulsion was, however, much like her.

I would have preferred it if Brandon used Graendal's old daring and showed a scene where she had the guts to take the place of one of the General's aides or servants with a MoM to reach him and compel him, right in the middle of the enemy camp. He didn't have to show more than one.

I liked the fact Rand didn't think to forewarn anyone about Graendal's tricks, thinking her dead by balefire. However, I'd liked to have had a scene where he spoke to Elayne and the leaders of Demandred, Moghedien, Lanfear, Moridin.. give them a taste of what to expect.

Jalyn
01-09-2013, 01:04 PM
Yes.

I didn't like so much that Hessalam did it all from TAR because it's the sort of tricks that were among the specialities of Lanfear/Moghedien in the WOS, not Graendal. Going for the key people using compulsion was, however, much like her.

I would have preferred it if Brandon used Graendal's old daring and showed a scene where she had the guts to take the place of one of the General's aides or servants with a MoM to reach him and compel him, right in the middle of the enemy camp. He didn't have to show more than one.

I liked the fact Rand didn't think to forewarn anyone about Graendal's tricks, thinking her dead by balefire. However, I'd liked to have had a scene where he spoke to Elayne and the leaders of Demandred, Moghedien, Lanfear, Moridin.. give them a taste of what to expect.

I think she was doing the actual compulsion in the real world, we see the scene where Perrin looks through to the real world and sees her compelling the guards to let her into one of the tents. (Itarulde, I think.) Itarulde's also the one that makes the compulsion perfectly clear as he's trying desperately not to give the order for the Aiel to pull back because he knows that it is disastrous and is so damn relieved that he managed to hold off on giving it before Elyas takes him down. (I do wonder how the hell Elyas managed to get out of that situation alive. Oh, you just knocked our general over the battlements, cool! Does he come back into the story after that point?)

Dom
01-09-2013, 01:22 PM
I think she was doing the actual compulsion in the real world, we see the scene where Perrin looks through to the real world and sees her compelling the guards to let her into one of the tents. (Itarulde, I think.) Itarulde's also the one that makes the compulsion perfectly clear as he's trying desperately not to give the order for the Aiel to pull back because he knows that it is disastrous and is so damn relieved that he managed to hold off on giving it before Elyas takes him down. (I do wonder how the hell Elyas managed to get out of that situation alive. Oh, you just knocked our general over the battlements, cool! Does he come back into the story after that point?)

He does show up alive later, IRRC.

For Hessalam I was not referring to her scene with Ituralde but the scene in which Perrin sees her meddle with "lights" and Lanfear explains to him what Graendal is doing. That's probably beyond Graendal's skills to find people's dreams and compel them this way (we were lead to believe those were skills associated with Dreaming rather than just Dreamwalking), and it doesn't seem to fit Egwene's description of the "dream zone" with the little lights, still it seems to clearly allude to that We're left to believe "barriers had weakened", which were a bit Brandon's "get out of jail free card" through the book.

Dom
01-09-2013, 01:37 PM
wasn't Graendal locating the generals in TAR

But she shouldn't have the skills to do that. She even implied once she found it difficult to locate ta'veren in the Pattern now it was all up in fluxes. That it happened that way was strictly a plot contrivance because Brandon wanted Perrin to be forewarned Graendal was going for his father-in-law.

It would have made more sense to show her infiltrate one of the camps. It's exactly the sort of things RJ had her do and built her up to... going to the Caemlyn palace in the wake of Rhavin's death when there were WO all around, her appearance in Illian watching Rand and his Asha'man etc. It's the sort of cool stuff Graendal had the guts to do, and part of what made her "fans" like her so much. The woman was over the top decadent and you'd really expect the dumb blond... but she was deviously brilliant, the most intelligent of the Forsaken, and terribly daring and brave. I would have liked it if Brandon thought of showing what she did that way, one last scene of Graendal being incredibly daring, walking in the enemy camp, making her way with disguises to reach each of the generals, hiding her ability and rather using the True Power.

It's details and nitpicking. I rather liked her in AMOL, especially when at the end she turned into this unleashed demon. Lanfear's arc was really the most satisfying to me, and Demandred was the most impressive in his way, but Graendal was the scariest. It could have probably gone even further, made even scarier. But it was still good. On the whole I'm not disappointed with Brandon's use of the four last Forsaken. I've said elsewhere I would have preferred if he built up Demandred better, threw allusions to prophecies and misguided us to believe that meant the corrupted Seanchan KC. I think it could have been where RJ was heading with that, his preparations for the final red herring. Lanfear's arc has me 90% happy with it, in many ways it was just the arc I was hoping for, for two of my personal favorites. Moghedien was cool, and I liked the monster Graendal well enough though I would have liked it to be scarier.

What I didn't like much about the way Brandon handled the Shadow is that he underused POVs. I think the book called for a few POVs of the Shadow's pawns. I would have liked to know what Alviarin, or Hanlon for instance thought of the "final days", of the day they had all been waiting for yet dreaded etc. There wasn't much of that, in the vein of the old "DF POV". I would have liked a few, in the vein of Carridin's in TGH, Galina mid-series, Alviarin. She was always the coolest BA. I'm not all that happy her whole arc was sent down the drain by Brandon in TGS. He made her totally irrelevant. I would have liked her toughts on the BA's downfall, on Mesaana's downfall etc. Her POVs won't be nearly as fun on rereads now, knowing her arc is "unfinished", that it all peters out to nothing by TGS.

bowlwoman
01-09-2013, 02:03 PM
p434 4th from last paragraph


Shouldn't it be proven? I don't know if this is acceptable; I'm not quite the grammar buff that Peter is...

My understanding is that it is a past and specific moment in time, so that makes it proved.

If it is a past participle then it is proven.

It is proven that all ta'veren affect chance around them.

Sourced: from my brother, grammar know-it-all.


Actually, either "proved" or "proven" is fine. It comes down mostly to personal preference or regional/dialectical influences.

Proved vs. proven (http://grammarist.com/usage/proved-proven/)

Additional source: my professional certification in Editing from UC Berkeley

ShadowbaneX
01-09-2013, 03:32 PM
Technically, IIRC, he gave her a Seed which is the starting point for an angreal/sa'angreal, not an actual angreal/sa'angreal.

Pretty sure the first thing Rand says is that the Talent for angreal is different from that of ter'angreal. The Seed does let her make the latter though.

Davian93
01-09-2013, 04:22 PM
Pretty sure the first thing Rand says is that the Talent for angreal is different from that of ter'angreal. The Seed does let her make the latter though.

He tells her its a seed for making angreal and that it takes part of your strength over days/months to do so...kinda similar to banking one's power in exchange for being temporarily weak is how I saw it. (much like Sazed banking energy in his metal minds is how I envisioned it...which makes me wonder how much influence BS had on the whole idea).

ShadowbaneX
01-09-2013, 04:55 PM
Fine, make me find the quote then...

"An angreal?" Elayne asked.
"No, a Seed."
"A...seed?"
"You have the Talent of creating ter'angreal," Rand said. "Creating angreal requires a different process. It begins with one of these, an object created to draw your Power and instill it into something else. It takes time, and will weaken you for several months, so you should not attempt it while we are at war. But when I found it, forgotten, I thought of you. I had wondered what I could give you."

Davian93
01-09-2013, 04:56 PM
Fine, make me find the quote then...

I think we're talking past each other here, SBX. We're in agreement. I thought you said that the Seed was for ter'angreal which is why I "corrected" you...so to speak.

Also, the way I read it is that while its a different process, it still falls into the same general set of skills. Otherwise, Rand giving it to her because she knows how to make ter'angreal doesnt make any sense.

ShadowbaneX
01-09-2013, 05:03 PM
ah, now I see what you're saying. That paragraph is a little...ambiguous. I thought that the reason that Elayne was having so much issue with ter'angreal was that the lacked one of these Seeds, and only with it, would she be successful. I can now see how that paragraph can read that the Seed is required for making angreal now though.

Davian93
01-09-2013, 05:11 PM
ah, now I see what you're saying. That paragraph is a little...ambiguous. I thought that the reason that Elayne was having so much issue with ter'angreal was that the lacked one of these Seeds, and only with it, would she be successful. I can now see how that paragraph can read that the Seed is required for making angreal now though.

I'd imagine its only possible to make a sa'angreal with a Seed and a large circle of channelers...perhaps a maxed out circle of 72 for ones like Callandor and the Choedan Kal and Demandred's Sceptre.

KyleLitke
01-09-2013, 11:07 PM
There are lots of those types of POV errors and knowledge errors in this book. Just like Rand's pondering of his long-held 'Roedran=Demandred' theory that he's been thinking about for several books.


I didn't get that impression even a little, and I think people are overreacting about "fan service". Roedran wasn't a major character in the books by any stretch, but he was a mentioned ruler of practically the only nation on the entire continent that wasn't under either Seanchan control or Rand control. I thought RJ had specifically set him up as a red herring for Demandred simply by not involving him in the world events at all save for a brief mention of him hiring the Band to consolidate his power, and it makes absolute sense to me that, on the eve of the Last Battle and having looked EVERYWHERE else, Rand would be suspicious of the only nation left in the world (except, as it turned out, Shara, which probably didn't occur to him) that wasn't under some degree of his or Seanchan control.

Terez
01-10-2013, 04:25 AM
p485

This is probably not the kind of thing that will get fixed, but it bothered me that a big deal was made about Uno being an officer. I think it's the same in his POV later, but I don't remember. Anyway, he was Ingtar's second in TGH before it was revealed that Rand was his second, and Moiraine's request. It didn't seem like he was somehow unsuited for command. Maybe he's more of a bannerman type, but it still bugged me. Why not Uno?

Davian93
01-10-2013, 07:06 AM
p485

This is probably not the kind of thing that will get fixed, but it bothered me that a big deal was made about Uno being an officer. I think it's the same in his POV later, but I don't remember. Anyway, he was Ingtar's second in TGH before it was revealed that Rand was his second, and Moiraine's request. It didn't seem like he was somehow unsuited for command. Maybe he's more of a bannerman type, but it still bugged me. Why not Uno?

Uno struck me as a senior Non-Com...along the lines of a Sergeant Major. Zero reason there should be any concern with him taking command under those circumstances.

Dom
01-10-2013, 08:53 AM
I didn't get that impression even a little, and I think people are overreacting about "fan service".

It's not that Rand came up with a Roedran theory that irritated most people, it's the complete lack of build up to it in TGS/TOM. It just... appeared... magically in Rand's POV when Brandon found it convenient. It's largely what made it appear to be "fan service", that and the farcical "wink wink" tone of the scene.

Dom
01-10-2013, 09:02 AM
Uno struck me as a senior Non-Com...along the lines of a Sergeant Major. Zero reason there should be any concern with him taking command under those circumstances.

He had pretty much assumed command of the Shienarans soldiers in Ghealdan. Masema was another type of "leader".

Wasn't he then made an officer by Bryne after he showed up in Salidar anyway? My memory of that stuff is a bit hazy, but I had the impression Bryne formally put him in charge of training a cavalry unit or some such? I also vaguely remember a scene in which Uno is the officer leading a large number of Salidar troops. The meeting at the Murandy-Andor border maybe, or maybe in a scene at TV in COT or KOD.

Edit: Got it from WOT encyclopedia. Uno was the officer leading the military escort of a thousand men who accompanied the Sitters and Egwene at the Andor-Murandy meeting with the nobles. His role as Ingtar's second made him no stranger to being an officer, and he's been an officer for Bryne since he arrived in Salidar. The AMOL scene is rather clearly out of character.

Davian93
01-10-2013, 09:08 AM
He had pretty much assumed command of the Shienarans soldiers in Ghealdan. Masema was another type of "leader".

Wasn't he then made an officer by Bryne after he showed up in Salidar anyway? My memory of that stuff is a bit hazy, but I had the impression Bryne formally put him in charge of training a cavalry unit or some such? I also vaguely remember a scene in which Uno is the officer leading a large number of Salidar troops. The meeting at the Murandy-Andor border maybe, or maybe in a scene at TV in COT or KOD.

Yes, he was put in charge of training heavy cavalry by Bryne and he led Egwene's honor guard at the meeting between her and hte Andoran/Murandian nobles.

Though that could have been more as a Drill Sergeant type of job than an officer. Still, it seems like he was actually an officer, not just a non-com in that scenario.

All in all, the "concern" about him leading seemed massively out of place...especially given the whole spiel by Ingtar about how every Shienaran knows his chain of command in TGH and how even the last man is still the Commander regardless.

Guess Brandon skimmed that book.

Terez
01-10-2013, 09:23 AM
ahh, I decided to actually look it up, and it was more explicit than I remembered:

Uno wore a band of golden braid on the cuffs of his worn dark coat now; he was an officer, training heavy cavalry for Gareth Bryne, and much too caught up in it to bother himself with Nynaeve.
So it's definitely an error unless he got demoted for some reason.

Davian93
01-10-2013, 09:29 AM
ahh, I decided to actually look it up, and it was more explicit than I remembered:


So it's definitely an error unless he got demoted for some reason.

It was the blasphemy...all that blashemy he was spewing. Got dropped down a bunch in rank.


Leading 1000 lancers would make him a Banner-General based on what we know of ranks in Randland (1500 horse=Banner and all that jazz)

KyleLitke
01-10-2013, 06:46 PM
It's not that Rand came up with a Roedran theory that irritated most people, it's the complete lack of build up to it in TGS/TOM. It just... appeared... magically in Rand's POV when Brandon found it convenient. It's largely what made it appear to be "fan service", that and the farcical "wink wink" tone of the scene.

Fair, but I think that was where it made sense to appear. It's not that Rand suspects Roedran is Demandred, not really...it's that Rand has completely run out of options. It's safe to say Rand, especially with the LTT memories, wouldn't be expecting Demandred to be playing second fiddle to any of the Forsaken, so, for example, he wouldn't have been in Caemlyn since Rahvin ran things there. So he can eliminate Caemlyn (Rahvin), Tear (Be'lal), Illian (Sammael), the Seanchan (Semirhage), Tar Valon (Mesaana, although not entirely sure Rand knew at that point...doesn't really matter, Demandred wouldn't be running things there), and Arad Doman (Graendal). Rand also controls Cairhien and has the Aiel under control...multiple Forsaken were playing with the Aiel at various times, but at that point it was clear Demandred wasn't hiding there. The Seanchan control most of the southwest, Rand likely assumed Demandred wouldn't be there, since he already had found Semirhage among them. Once you eliminate all those possibilities (and under the assumption Shara never even occurred to Rand), you're pretty much down to Murandy and the Borderlands (collectively since they collectively were marching armies around down south, and it's feasible Rand could have suspected Demandred to have something to do with that). In Towers of Midnight he confronts the Borderlanders and gets them under control. So with that taken care of, Murandy is pretty much the only place left (discounting Shara and the Land of the Madmen, two places they know very little about) where Demandred could be forming an army without being under the thumb of another Forsaken. I'm just saying I don't think it was completely out of left field at all, and I don't think it was solely fan service either...showing that immediately established that nobody knew where Demandred was, eliminated the last possibility from that section of the world, and set up the Shara surprise later.

I'm not saying it couldn't have been done better or there wasn't a tiny bit of fan service, but I think this idea that Rand shouldn't have suspected Roedran because he didn't suspect him books ago is wrong. It wasn't Roedran specifically that Rand was suspecting, it was the leader of one of the only remaining nations, a leader that hadn't consolidated his power until after the Forsaken were freed. Considering at this point Rand had already faced and unmasked a ton of Forsaken and had seen the general MO from them, he would have been stupid NOT to at least wonder about that King that suddenly united Murandy under one man in the last year or so.

Dom
01-10-2013, 07:09 PM
It wasn't Roedran specifically that Rand was suspecting,

But he was suspecting Roedran specifically to be under Demandred's thumb. That's why he got arranged for the Asha'man to surround him (and probably shield him.. no matter it did nothing since Roedran isn't a channeler), and he used again the trick he used with Weiramon, looking him deeply in the eyes, listening for his heartbeat to betray him. Then as it wasn't working, Rand exclaimed, essentially meaning: if Roedran isn't a darkfriend, Light. It isn't you in person Demandred?"

Which perhaps is what you meant.

Again, there's absolutely nothing wrong with those suspicions and the deductions. Rand had a full month with LTT's full memories of Barid Bel Medar, his tactics, his telltale signs, and spies reports about Shadowspawn from the south etc.

Most people just don't like how Brandon handled the scene, how he didn't have, for e.g. Rand toward the end of TOM ponder more specifically on the whereabouts of Demandred, drop the clue that Rand had some ideas, worries about what he might be up to, that he would need to look deeper into.

The lack of some sort of a set up, and the farcical, Falstaff-like Roedran combined, and the annoyingly out of character pranks of Egwene etc. gave the whole thing the feel of fan service and huge wink at fan theories.

It was just badly executed, and not very well built up to (the only hints are in chapter 1: too late). But of course it makes sense Rand during the month since his epiphany gave thought to finding Demandred.

The only ones who did have really good intel about Roedran's deceptions he was a buffoon, and about the real cunning underneath, and how Roedran used the Band as a proxy enemy to unite Murandy under himself were Talmanes and the Band of the Red Hand. IMO, that was all along part of RJ's set up for Rand developing his suspicions, but Brandon didn't see it/didn't use it. It would have made sense for Rand to send for Talmanes or an officer as soon as they showed up at Merrilor, if only to learn what they knew of Mat's plans and why he had gone to Ebou Dar. Talmanes could have heard of, or witnessed the arrival of Roedran, and told him Roedran wasn't to be trusted... that Talmanes was convinced after he used them, he planned to trap and kill them.

It would have been a more interesting build up. It didn't even needed to be so elaborate. Just having Talmanes asks to meet TDR, and have their meeting happen off-screen, would have served the purpose. It would have been more subtle, more RJ-like than the farcical scene with no set up.

KyleLitke
01-10-2013, 09:07 PM
Sorry, what I meant was Rand wasn't specifically suspecting Roedran prior to A Memory of Light. He suspected Roedran because he was nearly out of other options.

Terez
01-11-2013, 01:12 PM
This bugged me:

p514

Mat cried out, “Los cabadrin!” Words most of those assembled did not understand, and yet instinctively knew to mean “Horsemen forward!”
Instinctively? When Mat used this command previously, it was not understood instinctively. It was understood because of the gesture he made with his ashandarei.

Davian93
01-11-2013, 01:17 PM
This bugged me:

p514


Instinctively? When Mat used this command previously, it was not understood instinctively. It was understood because of the gesture he made with his ashandarei.

You know, you'd think at least some of the officers (who are likely nobles) would know enough Old Tongue to understand him regardless...but whatever.

Terez
01-11-2013, 01:51 PM
Well, he did say 'most'.

Nei
01-12-2013, 09:49 AM
a minor one towards the end, forgot the page, but I'm pretty sure that Narishma is Arafellin not Kandori.

Dom
01-12-2013, 02:57 PM
P. 275

Bashere, Elayne and Talmanes are discussing heading east and crossing the Erinin, and Talmanes retorts:

"There are no bridges this far north".


There are no bridges at all over the Erinin except at Tar Valon where they're Ogier made + Power-wrought, fantastically high to let the big trade ships pass under.

The depth of the river varies a lot, but at every location we've seen it in the series it's either very wide or very very wide (near TV you can't see well the other bank).

The Erinin is crossed using boats, and there are a lot of ferries.

I haven't reread those chapters yet, but Brandon didn't have Bashere and co. build bridges to get accross, did he?

Mind you, that wouldn't be his first Erinin blunder. He got Gawyn ride over it in TGS.

fionwe1987
01-12-2013, 04:35 PM
P. 275

Bashere, Elayne and Talmanes are discussing heading east and crossing the Erinin, and Talmanes retorts:

"There are no bridges this far north".


There are no bridges at all over the Erinin except at Tar Valon where they're Ogier made + Power-wrought, fantastically high to let the big trade ships pass under.

The depth of the river varies a lot, but at every location we've seen it in the series it's either very wide or very very wide (near TV you can't see well the other bank).

The Erinin is crossed using boats, and there are a lot of ferries.

I haven't reread those chapters yet, but Brandon didn't have Bashere and co. build bridges to get accross, did he?

Mind you, that wouldn't be his first Erinin blunder. He got Gawyn ride over it in TGS.
I remember something about the Band's masons being asked to build bridges, that were burned before the Trollocs could cross. But I'm not sure that was the Erinin.

Davian93
01-12-2013, 05:02 PM
Dont know whether or not this is an error or not...right before their training dual, Rand calls Tam "Tam" instead of father. He had reverted to calling him Father after his epiphany as far as I can tell and called him Father thoughout the rest of the scene.

Dom
01-12-2013, 06:29 PM
Dont know whether or not this is an error or not...right before their training dual, Rand calls Tam "Tam" instead of father. He had reverted to calling him Father after his epiphany as far as I can tell and called him Father thoughout the rest of the scene.

Speaking of Tam, on p. 277 there's a big continuity error when Perrin asks Tam to take charge and he reacts like a wimp with a "but Perrin, I'm just a common farmer, they won't follow me".

This flatly contradicts KOD. When Tam arrives then and joins the meeting of the commanders planning Malden, he meets the eyes of Arganda and Gallene proudly and levelly, and Perrin reflects Tam is not impressed by their shiny armors. Perrin then announces that Tam is his First Captain.

As soon as he gives his name, Arganda recognizes it obviously for that of the second in command of the elite Illian Companions during the Aiel War. The whole scene implies Tam has quite the reputation. Tam looks at the plans and comments aloud that they're good.

Arganda immediately turns to Perrin: "As long as he is your First Captain, I have no objections", and Perrin reflects that Arganda has had plenty of objections to the plans before knowing who Perrin would be placing in command over them.

So basically the whole scene and device to make him a Lord so Arganda and co will agree to follow his lead doesn't work. Tam, of course, is not stranger to command and never shied from taking it when duty called. Then, since his arrival in Altara, he is the military commander above the others and not only that but as soon as they realized the Tam al'Thor of the Companions was the commander Perrin placed above them, they all stopped their usual arguing and objecting.

Davian93
01-12-2013, 06:34 PM
Exactly. Tam is literally like Mr. Uber-Soldier Medal of Honor recipient who is famous among military circles for his time in Illian. A foreign commoner rising to 2nd in command of an elite military formation and personal bodyguard of a king as well as a Blademaster (who actually got a power-wrought blade unlike most of his fellow blademasters). Its ridiculous for him to all of a sudden not take command.




Also, my possible "error" was on page 307

Dom
01-12-2013, 06:34 PM
Dont know whether or not this is an error or not...right before their training dual, Rand calls Tam "Tam" instead of father. He had reverted to calling him Father after his epiphany as far as I can tell and called him Father thoughout the rest of the scene.

I don't remember how it went it TGS/TOM, but TR Rand never called Tam by his name, would not have dared. In TEOTW, Rand is quite in awe of his father.

It's Perrin who gets to call them by their names, which he is fairly uncomfortable with, after they recognize him as a grown up.

Davian93
01-12-2013, 06:38 PM
I don't remember how it went it TGS/TOM, but TR Rand never call Tam by his name, would not have dared.

It's Perrin who gets to call them by their names, which he is fairly uncomfortable with, after they recognize him as a grown up.

That's what I was thinking when I read it...a normal Rand who isn't nutso on power like he was prior to his epiphany would never call his father by his first name like that. Here's him after Dragonmount:


TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 13 - For What Has Been Wrought
The gathered Aes Sedai, Tairens and Aiel watched solemnly. None shuffled or turned away. Rand squeezed his eyes shut. "I'm sorry, Father," he whispered. Min could barely hear. "I'm so sorry." "It's all right, son. It's all right." "I've done so much that is terrible." "Nobody walks a difficult path without stumbling now and again. It didn't break you when you fell. That's the important part." Rand nodded. They held each other for a time. Eventually, Rand pulled back, then gestured to Min, standing at the base of the steps.


TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 13 - For What Has Been Wrought
"Come, Father," Rand said. "There is someone I want to introduce to you." Tam chuckled. "It's been three days, Rand. I've already met her." "Yes, but I didn't introduce you. I need to." He waved to Min, and she raised an eyebrow, folding her arms. He looked at her pleadingly, so she sighed and climbed up the steps. "Father," Rand said, resting his hand on Min's back. "This is Min Farshaw. And she's very special to me."

David Selig
01-12-2013, 06:55 PM
Speaking of Tam and Rand, it bugged me that Rand thought at one point:
"He would never know them. He would leave them fatherless before they were even born. But, then, Janduin had left Rand fatherless—and he had turned out all right."

Rand always had Tam and considered him his father.

fionwe1987
01-12-2013, 07:06 PM
Speaking of Tam and Rand, it bugged me that Rand thought at one point:
"He would never know them. He would leave them fatherless before they were even born. But, then, Janduin had left Rand fatherless—and he had turned out all right."

Rand always had Tam and considered him his father.
I think he means that Janduin left without knowing his son would find a father. He had no hand in Rand being found by Tam, and thus turning out alright. That's how I read it, at least.

Davian93
01-12-2013, 07:17 PM
I think he means that Janduin left without knowing his son would find a father. He had no hand in Rand being found by Tam, and thus turning out alright. That's how I read it, at least.

Yeah, he's just gonna have Tam raise these kids too.

Rand will clearly end up as a deadbeat father who goes around singing to people like a damned long-hair hippy.

Davian93
01-13-2013, 09:28 AM
Okay, so here's a bothersome error. Now, the battle at Merrilor took place right next to the Mora River (a tributary of the Erinin that forms the border of Arafel & Shienar). Now there's an easily fordable section right there by the battlfield. Problem: The AS in TGH somehow sailed four boats down through that very ford when they left Fal Dara to go to Tar Valon.

If there's a ford like that, there's zero chance of those boats being able to get that far up river.

Geography fail.


TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 12 - Woven in the Pattern
Medo was a small village-though Egwene was shocked to realize that what she now thought of as a "small village" was as big as Emond's Field-and it was overwhelmed now with many more outsiders than there were inhabitants. Horses and people filled the narrow streets, jostling to the docks past villagers who knelt whenever an unseeing Aes Sedai sped by. Harsh torchlight lit everything. The two docks jutted out into the River Mora like stone fingers, and each hosted a pair of small, two-masted ships. There, horses were being hoisted on board by booms and cables and canvas cradles under their bellies. More of the ships-high-sided and stout, with lanterns topping their masts-crowded the moon-streaked river, already loaded or waiting their turn. Rowboats ferried out archers and pikemen, the raised pikes making the boats look like gigantic pricklebacks swimming on the surface.

Anaiya Sedai
01-13-2013, 10:16 AM
I need to have a re-read that is a "read" rather than a "listen" as I only listened to the audiobook of about half of it (but they read so slowly that I only did that while working).. but I noticed a few things that struck me as errors, I'm not sure if they were reading errors or book errors in some cases (like people addressing characters by the wrong names).

I'm assuming Egwene and whoever the other person was that had this in their POV knew to call Taim M'Hael because "his dreadlords were pronouncing the new forsaken across the battlefield" but it still bugged me.

Terez
01-13-2013, 02:29 PM
p813

Blood and Bloody ashes!
__________

I don't think that second 'bloody' was supposed to be capitalized?

Terez
01-13-2013, 02:41 PM
Also, this was mentioned earlier, without a page number:

p816

Narishma is referred to as Kandori.

Terez
01-13-2013, 02:52 PM
p817

“Gambler,” Hawkwing replied. “Do take better care of what has been alotted you. Almost, I worried we would not be summoned for this fight.”
__________
As far as I can tell, that's not a legitimate alternative spelling for 'allotted'.

Terez
01-13-2013, 03:47 PM
p833

“I kill without weaves,” Moghedien said, “only I, your Wyld, could have done this.”
__________
I think there is a punctuation issue here.

Dom
01-13-2013, 05:30 PM
Okay, so here's a bothersome error. Now, the battle at Merrilor took place right next to the Mora River (a tributary of the Erinin that forms the border of Arafel & Shienar). Now there's an easily fordable section right there by the battlfield. Problem: The AS in TGH somehow sailed four boats down through that very ford when they left Fal Dara to go to Tar Valon.

If there's a ford like that, there's zero chance of those boats being able to get that far up river.

Geography fail.

Wow... you're right.

It's one of many, and easy to avoid as Brandon just had to move the heights and the ford south, on the Erinin (the eastern affluent of the Erinin, there's a western one as well) instead of the Mora. It's fordable area is well north, beyond Medo. The rest of river, up to its source, is not accessible to ships and it's where the road to Arafel is, that's why Siuan's ships stopped at Medo and the delegation rode through woods to Fal Dara.

And how is a company of masons, without the OP to help, was supposed to build briges over a river as wide as the Erinin in a few days. Closer to the bank there are mudflats, so around Cairhien/Andor the river isn't as deep it is north and south, but it's still not fordable, for bridges to be built so easily without modern resources. Again, easy to avoid, Brandon just had to use barges/ferries instead... but wait... oh yeah.. of course there's no way the Shadowspawn could cross the Erinin, no more than those that crossed it south to come take Elayne in a pincer (those from the north could easily have come through the PS at Kinslayer dagger).. unless Dreadlords made bridges of Air. The whole thing is a complete mess.

Then, in TOM the minuscule village of Dorlan (a few buildings, dixit RJ) gets described as a town, a city and a village in different chapters. To top it, Brandon moved it from the eastern bank (from which the AS reached it from Dumai's Wells) to the western bank, to have Gawyn "ride to the rebel camp". *sight*.

There were also gross errors with the layout of Caemlyn. The wide boulevards etc. are in the New City, and Old Caemlyn is a labyrinth of very narrow streets laid out around a hill. The only open area is the Queen's Plaza on the summit, facing the palace. Brandon inverted it, making Talmanes fight on wide streets near the palace, and on narrow ones in the New City. :rolleyes:
I haven't checked yet if he put the Waygate in the right area of the city.

In TGS Mat traveled in mountainous country on a broken road about 3 times faster than the the best time the Band could make on the good road from Cairhien to Tear.

Another "geographic fail" in AMOL is that he got Lan stay close to the Mora. First, he placed its source much to far north. Then, he completely forgot the string of forts guarding the Blight, them he forgot the Mora is in a valley, surrounded by high hills/low mountains. There's no way Lan could retreat following the bank of the Mora without placing his army between Shadowspawn and hills/mountains, but Brandon conveniently turned the area into a plain. Let's not even mention the fact that between Medo and Fal Dara, it's supposed to be Woods.

Another geographic fail: Elayne gives the order to burn several cities in Shienar which were in the path of the Trollocs as Lan retreated, incl. Medo, Ankor Dal and Fal Moran. That's not a list of the cities in the Trollocs's path, it's just a lazy list of known cities of Shienar... Fal Moran and Ankor Dal were nowhere in the path of the Shadowspawn, if as described they followed Lan's army, and Lan was staying close to the Mora as he retreated east and south!

Burn Shienaran cities for nothing Elayne, no problem!

Davian93
01-13-2013, 05:32 PM
Wow... you're right.

Once in a blue moon I am.

It really bothered me once I realized it...I even thought "There's no way they messed that up and I had to grab TGH off the shelf to make sure.

Such a huge error to make that is easily avoidable with the minor changes you note.

Davian93
01-13-2013, 05:37 PM
Its possible they might have been able to build pontoon bridges across the Erinin there...but I doubt it. Even the Romans would have had trouble doing that given how strong a river it is and how deep it would be as they would have to drive anchors into the riverbed to hold it in place. Seems a bit iffy though given the previous descriptions we have of the Erinin being a mile wide or at least a half-mile at a minimum. That's pushing it.

Then, in TOM the minuscule village of Dorlan (a few buildings, dixit RJ) gets described as a town, a city and a village in different chapters. To top it, Brandon moved it from the eastern bank (from which the AS reached it from Dumai's Wells) to the western bank, to have Gawyn "ride to the rebel camp". *sight*.

You see, there's a certain "looseness" in the Pattern that accounts for these multiple changes in Dorlan's size, population, location, etc. But yeah...

Terez
01-13-2013, 05:45 PM
p864

“I am tired,” Grady said. “It isn’t that. Something’s happening at Shayol Ghul. Gateways opened there are deflected. The pattern is . . . warped, if that makes any sense. The valley isn’t one location any longer, but many, and a gateway can’t pinpoint it.”
__________
Should be capitalized.

Terez
01-13-2013, 05:55 PM
p864

He walked at the center of the bank of mist. He was not reborn yet, not completely. He would need to find a place to infest, a place where the barriers between worlds was thin.
__________
Needs to be either 'barrier' or 'were'.

Davian93
01-13-2013, 06:14 PM
I dont recall the page but there's a time that lightning is spelled without the first n so its just "lighting".

Good thing they did a full 6 month edit.

Terez
01-13-2013, 06:48 PM
p332

Yes, there was a figure up there. There were several of them. Balls of fire began to fall toward the Borderlanders as they rode away, and lighting flashed from the sky. Lan suddenly felt like a target on an archery practice field.

Davian93
01-13-2013, 06:49 PM
p332

Yes, there was a figure up there. There were several of them. Balls of fire began to fall toward the Borderlanders as they rode away, and lighting flashed from the sky. Lan suddenly felt like a target on an archery practice field.

Perhaps its not a mistake...perhaps this entire series took place within a holodeck/Truman Show scenario and the set's Lighting literally flashed in the sky?

Marie Curie 7
01-13-2013, 09:44 PM
A few typos:


p. 639 She iniated the link.


p. 755 Leane peeked above the defences, clutching the One Power.


p. 795 M'Hael and Demandred's balefire had done its work.

That last one should be "M'Hael's and Demandred's balefire," I believe.

Davian93
01-14-2013, 07:10 AM
A few typos:


p. 639 She iniated the link.


p. 755 Leane peeked above the defences, clutching the One Power.


p. 795 M'Hael and Demandred's balefire had done its work.

That last one should be "M'Hael's and Demandred's balefire," I believe.


M'Hael is like Moose in the Old Tongue...you dont add an S to it.

Terez
01-14-2013, 07:26 AM
That's plural, not possessive. But I have noticed you have difficulties with those concepts. (For example its/it's.)

Davian93
01-14-2013, 07:29 AM
That's plural, not possessive. But I have noticed you have difficulties with those concepts. (For example its/it's.)

Yes, I know, T. I was trying to make a joke.

yks 6nnetu hing
01-14-2013, 07:35 AM
I don't have the page number but Perrin says about Gaul's wounds (and later, about his own) that they could not be removed while they were in T'A'R in the flesh.

Previously, In Lord of Chaos:

TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 34 - Journey to Salidar
Bela wore the high-cantled saddle she had imagined, too. Comfortable for long travel normally, but not soft. Egwene eyed the thing askance, wondering how it would look padded; then she had a thought. You could change anything in Tel'aran'rhiod if you knew how, even yourself. If she had enough control to make Bela while in the flesh.... She concentrated on herself.

...and later...

TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 34 - Journey to Salidar
One step she took, and came up short with a sharp, wide-eyed, "Oh!" The changes she had made in Tel'aran'rhiod existed in the real world no more than Bela did. The flames returned with a rush, and with them, it was almost as though Sorilea spoke to her. If you take what you did to meet your toh and make it so it might as well never have happened, how have you met toh? Remember your Aiel heart, girl.

Davian93
01-14-2013, 07:40 AM
Technically, that's not healing of wounds, thats just blocking out the nerve endings from the brain. Had she been bleeding out, she'd still be bleeding out, she just wouldnt feel it.

GonzoTheGreat
01-14-2013, 08:27 AM
Technically, that's not healing of wounds, thats just blocking out the nerve endings from the brain. Had she been bleeding out, she'd still be bleeding out, she just wouldnt feel it.
And what a pity that would've been. :p

Dom
01-14-2013, 08:46 AM
Once in a blue moon I am.

//blushes//

:D

That was just a "Wow, that's a pretty big error" reaction. The thought crossed my mind as I posted it that it sounded more like "Wow, Dav has spotted this" but I guessed you knew I'm impressed with your knowledge in those areas and it possibly couldn't mean that.

Davian93
01-14-2013, 08:48 AM
//blushes//

That was just a "Wow, that's a pretty big error" reaction. The thought crossed my mind as I posted it that it sounded more like "Wow, Dav has spotted this" but I guessed you knew I'm impressed with your knowledge in those areas and it possibly couldn't mean that.

LOL...yeah, I know.

Rule #1: Dont take anything I say ever seriously as I'm kidding 99% of the time.

GonzoTheGreat
01-14-2013, 09:46 AM
Rule #1: Dont take anything I say ever seriously as I'm kidding 99% of the time.
If you're curious how accurate an estimate that 99% is: see rule #1.

Weiramon
01-14-2013, 11:43 AM
Burn my soul, there were rumours of a connection between that Mosvani woman and the Lord Dragon, as well that she was there at the Pit to betray him.

Clearly false, as the Lord Dragon would have known her whereabouts at that frivolous gathering of petty nobles at Merrilor.

Dom
01-14-2013, 12:03 PM
LOL...yeah, I know.

Rule #1: Dont take anything I say ever seriously as I'm kidding 99% of the time.

:D I figured as much but I then I thought to make it clear just this one time.

There was also a "damn, I've been spending something like 15 hours so far with the nose on my Merrilor/and north-east Shienar maps and I didn't notice that" in the "wow, you're right" too, to be honest.

Of course, Siuan and the Aes Sedai must have carried the ships over that ford with the OP and we're just nitpickers.

A serious and simple suggestion for Peter's list/TJ to correct that error would be to:

a) remove completely the reference that this ford is commonly used by locals to cross into Arafel, and rather put a reference that the DO's touch on the weather, the harsh summer, has now turned the shallower stretch of the Mora into a ford.

b) add a reference that "only at the height of the driest of summers had the level of the Mora descended so low, though old people remembered the last time it has happened."

Siuan and co. navigated it in spring not very long after the ice broke, and very suddenly at that.

That way the big mistake turns into an opportunity to mention one more time the DO's touch on the weather.

They could correct/enhance the Erinin stuff the same way. Instead of Talmanes saying "there's no bridge this far north", he is surprised: "but there's no way to cross the Erinin but with ferries" and Bashere mentions that with the DO's touch on the weather making the level of the rivers so low he believes masons might be able to make bridges in the stretch with the mudflats, and Shadowspawn might be able to follow, but without bridges it will be slow, they'll need to use trunks or build ferries as not even driven by Fades they will swim. Talmanes answers the Kinswomen will make gateways so the masons look into that, and it turns out Bashere was right.

That will probably go ignored as my suggestion in a TGS errors thread that Brandon corrected his Dorlan mistake by replacing his "Gawyn rode three days to go from there to the rebel camp" by a mention he had found a fisherman to bring him across and he paid good money to convince a farmer on the western bank to sell him a gelding that's hardly worth that price.

metaphor
01-14-2013, 01:25 PM
During her fight with Greandal Aviendah refers to the creation of a weave as spinning, rather than weaving.

Crispin's Crispian
01-14-2013, 03:04 PM
p813

Blood and Bloody ashes!
__________

I don't think that second 'bloody' was supposed to be capitalized?
It's a Seanchan joke.


Perhaps its not a mistake...perhaps this entire series took place within a holodeck/Truman Show scenario and the set's Lighting literally flashed in the sky?

"Boom mic! We got a boom mic!" The other option is that they'd opened so many of those sky gateways that it looked like a department store.


I just noticed that Tuon often thinks of Mat as Mat. Seems out of character for her, since names are so important to the Seanchan. She also sometimes thinks of him as Matrim. And then Knotai, of course. I haven't reread those chapters yet; I'm rereading chapter 24 now and noticed the Mat thing.

Where did Knotai come from? Anyone know if it's derived from a fan?

Davian93
01-14-2013, 03:06 PM
Anyone know if it's derived from a fan?

Please for the love of God let this not be the case...

I doubt it is but that would be terrible. BS spent his Mission trip in Korea so its possible it was from his time there.

professorskar
01-14-2013, 04:07 PM
I didn't see if anyone posted this already, and I have no idea what page number it was on, so this might be a completely useless addition: But I recall reading Mat think to himself something about those "bloody Foxes" when he was actually thinking about the Aelfinn, who are the snakes.

RiffDaemon
01-14-2013, 04:30 PM
An error that made me chuckle was Egwene's thought concerning Rand at the big meeting at the Field of Merrilor: "He going do it."

I'll grab a page number when I get home from work.

Dom
01-14-2013, 05:37 PM
I doubt it is but that would be terrible. BS spent his Mission trip in Korea so its possible it was from his time there.

I doubt it too. For e.g. even Hessalam came from RJ.

The best I got for Knotai is the Japanese title of Taiko, with the syllabes inverted and a "n" added, but I find it weak. Well, maybe not, considering the meaning of taiko and the military reknown of the last holder, right before the era of the Tokugawa bakufu.

I asked a Japanese friend, but the closest Japanese words are meaningless for Mat, and she didn't think it was Chinese.

Terez
01-14-2013, 06:05 PM
I didn't see if anyone posted this already, and I have no idea what page number it was on, so this might be a completely useless addition: But I recall reading Mat think to himself something about those "bloody Foxes" when he was actually thinking about the Aelfinn, who are the snakes.
p314

suttree
01-14-2013, 06:25 PM
During her fight with Greandal Aviendah refers to the creation of a weave as spinning, rather than weaving.

Always knew she was a forsaken.

Dom
01-14-2013, 06:37 PM
Always knew she was a forsaken.

Or Seanchan. They still use the AOL term too (I guess it's likely both weaving/spinning are acceptable translations of the same AOL verb).

I've little doubt this is an error for Aviendha, but perhaps it's not such a big one (not as big as if she were Tower trained). We don't know much about the Wise Ones's channeling and their terms for it, and most of what we saw was in scenes involving Aes Sedai, who are the ones not using spinning. The WO never used "spinning" on-screen, but perhaps they do interchangeably with weaving. The characters (even AS, like Elayne) use spinning for weaving in metaphors (or occasionally when speaking of the Wheel's weave) or when speaking about actual weaving of fabrics, not using "spinning" at all in reference to their channeling is mostly an Aes Sedai/Westlands thing.

David Selig
01-14-2013, 08:14 PM
Not sure about this one, but it bugged me that Elayne was surprised Galad would be ready to kill women when he ot the medallion from Mat. Isn't the whole "I can't a woman under no circumstances ever" idiocy accepted only in Two Rivers and the Borderlands? I don't recall this being an issue for the mainland Andorans or Galad specifically.

Besides, Elayne has always believed Galad would kill anyone for a righteous cause and this case was as clear cut as any.

Dom
01-15-2013, 04:26 AM
Two more:

p. 302

"Selucia could teach sandpaper a thing or two about being rough."

Unless Mat has suddenly gotten memories of the future, Selucia should have to wait for modern mass production techniques before people can compare her to sandpaper (even its direct predecessor "glass paper" is too modern for WOT's setting. Mid 19th century.). :p.

p. 314

Mat speaks of his wedding to Tuon, right after the already reported mixed up between Foxes and Snakes:

"She had married him back. He still did not know why. Something to do with those omens she talked about?"

Mat knows why Tuon married him. In KOD, Under the Oak, Tuon has explained everything to him about Lydia's foretelling that said she'd have him as husband or no other man, how she spotted him first with his signet ring and then the Band, and Mat in turns connects all the dots between the prophecy of the Aelfinn, the Eelfinn's gifts of memories and the fact his ta'veren nature made him pick the signet ring on a whim.

GonzoTheGreat
01-15-2013, 04:29 AM
Mat knows why Tuon married him. In KOD, Under the Oak, Tuon has explained everything to him about Lydia's foretelling that said she'd have him as husband or no other man, how she spotted him first with his signet ring and then the Band, and Mat in turns connects all the dots between the prophecy of the Aelfinn, the Eelfinn's gifts of memories and the fact his ta'veren nature made him pick the signet ring on a whim.
And if we make the wholly reasonable assumption that Mat did not listen to what a woman told him, then how could he know why she had married him?

Dom
01-15-2013, 04:36 AM
And if we make the wholly reasonable assumption that Mat did not listen to what a woman told him, then how could he know why she had married him?

The problem is that he had a big time "wow, ta'veren works even on myself"/"wow the bloody Snakes and Foxes have arranged all this" reaction to her explanation.

And he repeated his demand that Tuon explained why she married him and why when she did three times before she gave the answer.

GonzoTheGreat
01-15-2013, 08:44 AM
p. 16-19 As far as I know, making a spearhead or similar from slate is utterly stupid. Slate simply doesn't produce sharp enough edges to be useful for this, nor is it strong enough. Maybe doing it for demonstration purposes makes sense, but that's all, if even that would work.

Terez
01-15-2013, 09:07 AM
claireducky raised a similar objection when the prologue excerpt was released, but Peter told her to Google it. (I never bothered.)

Davian93
01-15-2013, 09:44 AM
http://www.timelineauctions.com/lot/slate-inuit-spearhead-collection/6273/

Enjoy.

GonzoTheGreat
01-15-2013, 10:03 AM
All right, that makes sense for the Inuit. They have the choice between slate, ice, snow, or picking up an angry icebear to try to bludgeon a walrus to death.
For just about anyone else, stones like obsidian are a lot better.

Davian93
01-15-2013, 10:08 AM
I forget the scene but was there a pile of slate and a pile of obsidian sitting next to each other and they chose the former?

GonzoTheGreat
01-15-2013, 10:14 AM
No, the toolmaker had taken great care to find some slate and granite, because those were the types of rock he had learned to use. Given the fact that not everything was slate and granite, it seems likely that there were other options available too. Which is not always the case for the Inuit, who are somewhat hampered by the environment they live in.

rand
01-15-2013, 10:05 PM
On p.681-2 it switches from Silviana's PoV to Egwene's and then back again. I kind of remember a similar PoV change in ToM (with Perrin and Faile, I think), but I think it was corrected.

On p.675 Rhuarc notes that the army of the Light has retreated to the Pit of Doom...isn't that inside Shayol Ghul?

The Sticks from tEotW are now called Twigs (p.586 and p.652).

New Futurist Man
01-16-2013, 02:09 AM
I haven't read all comments on this thread yet, so apologies if someone's already mentioned this flaw.

Not sure the chapter title or page, it was when Logain's Asha'man arrive to relieve Elayne's armies outside Cairhien, and Elayne sees Logain riding toward her and describes him a man of 'medium build'.

Logain wasn't of medium build, every description RJ ever wrote of him underlined how tall and broad-shouldered he was. He was comparable in size and build to Rand [half-Aiel] and Taim, neither of whom would be considered of medium build. Not a massive flaw, but surprising Sanderson missed it.

professorskar
01-16-2013, 02:16 AM
On p.681-2 it switches from Silviana's PoV to Egwene's and then back again. I kind of remember a similar PoV change in ToM (with Perrin and Faile, I think), but I think it was corrected.

On p.675 Rhuarc notes that the army of the Light has retreated to the Pit of Doom...isn't that inside Shayol Ghul?

The Sticks from tEotW are now called Twigs (p.586 and p.652).

I noticed that POV switch, confused the hell out of me.

Maybe twigs are baby sticks? :p

Menthu
01-16-2013, 08:34 AM
(paraphrased) ... why is there a ford when the Amyrlin traveled from TV to Fal Moran by boat

Wow... you're right.


Hi,

sorry to nitpick, but not neccesarily! During medieval times it was quite normal to travel rivers which had shallow waters or unpassable rapids. Passengers would disembark and the ship would be transported along the river banks til it could be put back into the river.

At least the vikings and the romans did that in central europe, even between different rivers.

That said, it's still kind of an oversight by BS / TJ, I stumbled there, when I read it myself, just as you did.

greetings,
Menthu

EDIT:
OK, you thought of it yourself, I shouldn't answer postings w/o having read the whole thread.
Apologies, Menthu

Davian93
01-16-2013, 08:48 AM
Hi,

sorry to nitpick, but not neccesarily! During medieval times it was quite normal to travel rivers which had shallow waters or unpassable rapids. Passengers would disembark and the ship would be transported along the river banks til it could be put back into the river.

At least the vikings and the romans did that in central europe, even between different rivers.

That said, it's still kind of an oversight by BS / TJ, I stumbled there, when I read it myself, just as you did.

greetings,
Menthu

EDIT:
OK, you thought of it yourself, I shouldn't answer postings w/o having read the whole thread.
Apologies, Menthu


No worries either way. However, the description of these ships (that could carry horses and had cabins for passengers) implies they were quite a bit larger than the ships you mentioned...even for "small 2 masted ships".

KilMichaelMcC
01-16-2013, 11:28 AM
Something I believe is an error, although correct me if I'm wrong, is that throughout the book it was written "great captain," when previously that had always been capitalized. Should be the Great Captains, right?

Also, Teslyn seemed to forget her Illianer dialect, didn't she? Using "not" instead of "no," for example.

Terez
01-16-2013, 11:31 AM
I nitpicked Teslyn's loss of Illianer dialect in the earlier Brandon books. Apparently it wasn't considered important.

New Futurist Man
01-16-2013, 11:55 AM
On the subject of capitilization, I believe BS was capitalising 'Void' these last couple books, but he chose not to in aMoL.

And no 'Bloody ashes!' exclamations in aMoL thankfully.

Terez
01-16-2013, 12:36 PM
There were a few.

New Futurist Man
01-16-2013, 12:41 PM
I remember a few 'Blood and bloody ashes' as opposed to the standard 'Blood and ashes' but no 'Bloody ashes', must've missed them.

Marie Curie 7
01-16-2013, 01:02 PM
There were a few.

There were many more than a few "bloody ashes" comments from Mat. And it has spread:

Birgitte:

Birgitte shook her head. "Nothing. I feel that I'm supposed to know someone by that name, but I don't." She chuckled. "Like I said. I don't know what I've lost, so it's all right."

"Are you lying?"

"Bloody ashes, of course I am. It's like a hole inside of me, Elayne. A deep, gaping hole. Bleeding out my life and memories." She looked away.


Talmanes:
A discomforting thought. The Band could end its days trapped down here. At least there wouldn't be many of those days. Either the world would end or the Band would run out of food. They wouldn't last a week. Buried here. In darkness.

Bloody ashes, Mat. You'd better not lose up there. You'd better not! The Band still had fight in them. They were not going to end this one starving underground.

Talmanes held up his lantern, turning to go, but noticed something. The soldiers working on the dragons cast a twisted shadow on the wall, like a man with a wide cloak and hat that obscured his face.


Vanin:

"I thought you had buried it to leave it behind!" Vanin yelled from the other side. "I figured Mat wouldn't care. He owes me a few marks anyway! When I opened that sack and found the bloody Horn of Valere . . . bloody ashes! I'll bet they heard my yell all the way in Tar Valon!"


And Olver:
Faile did not smile back. Olver figured that she was pretty good to look at, despite that nose. She wasn't very soft, though. Bloody ashes, but she had a glare that could rust good iron.

This trend fits with the comments that Brandon made to explain Mat's use of the phrase - that the language was evolving over time - since the 'bloody ashes' comments come from only those who hung around Mat for some period of time.

Terez
01-16-2013, 01:05 PM
Tylin. Bloody ashes, but that had been a fun game. (ch11)

Mat reached up to tip his hat to the man, but of course he was not wearing it. Bloody ashes. He felt naked without it, sometimes. (ch11)

"Well, where is she?" Mat demanded. "Bloody ashes, woman! This is serious. General Galgan himself has hired men to kill her!" (ch15)

Bloody ashes, Mat thought, groaning. They had fallen asleep in the gardens. (ch17)

"A dagger rammed through the heart of a raven."

"Bloody ashes . . ." (ch27)

She gawked at him as if he were insane. Bloody ashes, he probably was. (ch29)

"Oh. That . . . All right, maybe I did that. Accidentally. And the channeler . . . bloody ashes, Tuon. I didn't mean for her to . . . I guess. Well, you can have her." (ch29)

"Try it," Min said softly. Mat started. Bloody ashes, she looked as cold as Tuon had a moment ago. (ch32)

Faile did not smile back. Olver figured that she was pretty good to look at, despite that nose. She wasn't very soft, though. Bloody ashes, but she had a glare that could rust good iron. (ch35)

"Get back to your practice," Mat said, wiping his brow and looking over his shoulder. Bloody ashes! The Deathwatch Guards were heading his way. (ch36)

"I've told them," Mat complained. "Bloody ashes. Somebody check on the archers, I—" (ch37)

Bloody ashes, Mat thought. As if this weren't tough enough. (ch37)

Bloody ashes, and even he worried that each time one went off it would somehow blow up the wrong way. (ch37)

But the moment I do, he thought, Demandred will bring everything he has down on them. It had to be just the right moment. Bloody ashes, lately his life had been completely about trying to find the right moments. (ch37)

"Bloody ashes, no," Mat said. "I can't fake that. He'd see through it. I am losing, but I'm also watching. Holding back for that last bet, the one that could win it all." (ch37)

"Bloody ashes, of course I am. It's like a hole inside of me, Elayne. A deep, gaping hole. Bleeding out my life and memories." She looked away. (ch37)

All he had to do was convince Tuon to forsake her throne and run off with him. That would not be easy, but bloody ashes, he was fighting the Last Battle. (ch37)

"She doesn't need much protecting," Mat said. "She's a strong one. Bloody ashes, but she is. She does need watching, though. She worries me, Min. Anyway, I have this bloody war to win. I can't do that and go with her. So would you go and watch her? Please?" (ch37)

Bloody ashes, Mat thought. Poor Perrin. (ch37)

Bloody ashes, Mat. You'd better not lose up there. You'd better not! The Band still had fight in them. They were not going to end this one starving underground. (ch37)

"I thought you had buried it to leave it behind!" Vanin yelled from the other side. "I figured Mat wouldn't care. He owes me a few marks anyway! When I opened that sack and found the bloody Horn of Valere . . . bloody ashes! I'll bet they heard my yell all the way in Tar Valon!" (ch37)

Bloody Ashes! Not Elayne! Mat felt a lurch inside. Rand . . . I'm sorry. (ch37)

"Send for her, Naeff," Mat said. He called for paper and a pen, and scribbled a note, which he handed off to the Asha'man. He shoved aside the selfish desire to let Tuon fly to safety. Bloody ashes, there was no safety, not anywhere. (ch37)

"Gambler," Hawkwing replied. "Do take better care of what has been allotted you. Almost, I worried we would not be summoned for this fight." Mat let out a relaxing breath. "Bloody ashes, Hawkwing! You needn't have drawn it out like that, you bloody goat-kisser. So you fight for us?" (ch39)

That was a piece of it. The tugging was insufferable. Bloody ashes, Rand. Leave me alone, you— (ch45)

bjoern
01-16-2013, 01:34 PM
Something I haven't seen mentioned here yet that bugged me quite a bit was the thing that Perrin and Gaul couldnt get nourishment from conjured food in TAR, but it wasnt any problem for Lanfear or Perrin to drug people with imagined Forkroot.

mogi67
01-16-2013, 01:51 PM
This trend fits with the comments that Brandon made to explain Mat's use of the phrase - that the language was evolving over time - since the 'bloody ashes' comments come from only those who hung around Mat for some period of time.

A lame explanation imo. Does Brandon think that these phrases actually sound good? That and "burn it", ugh. Blood and Ashes just seems so much more authentic. You can't just introduce new curses like that in a series that's twenty years old. At least keep that shit in the foregate where it belongs. Some of Elayne's curses in AMoL made me facepalm too. I smirked at "mother's milk in a cup!" but that's a Jordan creation iirc.

Jokeslayer
01-16-2013, 02:39 PM
Something I haven't seen mentioned here yet that bugged me quite a bit was the thing that Perrin and Gaul couldnt get nourishment from conjured food in TAR, but it wasnt any problem for Lanfear or Perrin to drug people with imagined Forkroot.

I suspect you could stop yourself from feeling hungry with the food, because that pretty much just needs your brain to believe you've been fed, but you wouldn't get any nutritional value from it.

GonzoTheGreat
01-16-2013, 02:42 PM
Something I haven't seen mentioned here yet that bugged me quite a bit was the thing that Perrin and Gaul couldnt get nourishment from conjured food in TAR, but it wasnt any problem for Lanfear or Perrin to drug people with imagined Forkroot.
The food would work for as long as they thought about it, and then fail to be nutritious. Similarly, the forkroot would work for a while, and then no longer have any effect. With the forkroot, that would be long enough, with food it wouldn't be.

Whether forkroot would work on someone whe had never heard of it is an interesting question.

bjoern
01-16-2013, 02:58 PM
The food would work for as long as they thought about it, and then fail to be nutritious. Similarly, the forkroot would work for a while, and then no longer have any effect. With the forkroot, that would be long enough, with food it wouldn't be.

Whether forkroot would work on someone whe had never heard of it is an interesting question.

Since forkroot is ingested same as food it should take roughly the same time(liquids gets into the bloodstream faster) for the effects to take place. Do they have to keep thinking about stuff like "Active narcotic substances in forkroot circulating in their blood" also for it to work? Imo its too similar to make one work and the other not.

Terez
01-16-2013, 03:00 PM
Whether forkroot would work on someone whe had never heard of it is an interesting question.
Probably, because if they hadn't heard of it then they couldn't fight it, and it would be dependent on the beliefs of the person giving it to them.

Dom
01-16-2013, 05:48 PM
No worries either way. However, the description of these ships (that could carry horses and had cabins for passengers) implies they were quite a bit larger than the ships you mentioned...even for "small 2 masted ships".

Yes. Medo is described as the Shienaran trade center with the south. Obviously the bigger river trade ships can reach Medo.

The Unreasoner
01-16-2013, 06:21 PM
This thread is pretty damned depressing. Now I know why everyone decided to put their thoughts into an individual thread: to dilute the upsetting nature of the few real ones.

Marie Curie 7
01-16-2013, 11:08 PM
A lame explanation imo. Does Brandon think that these phrases actually sound good? That and "burn it", ugh. Blood and Ashes just seems so much more authentic. You can't just introduce new curses like that in a series that's twenty years old. At least keep that shit in the foregate where it belongs. Some of Elayne's curses in AMoL made me facepalm too. I smirked at "mother's milk in a cup!" but that's a Jordan creation iirc.

Brandon has stated previously that he did some study in the area of linguistics. This came up at a book signing that I attended, as well as at others. Brandon stated that he wanted to show in the books, using Mat as an example, how language changes over time. He suggested that going from "blood and bloody ashes" to "bloody ashes" is the sort of short cut in common speech that happens fairly regularly. You can consider it lame or not, but this is Brandon's stance on it:


Interview: Nov 11th, 2011
Alloy of Law Signing Report - Wetlandernw (Paraphrased) (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=632#22)

I overheard someone bringing up the "bloody ashes" issue with Brandon. His response was essentially that the phrase has always been there, and using it without the accompanying "blood and" is merely one example of the way a person's language choices sometimes change over time.


Interview: Sep 9th, 2010
TWOK Signing Report - Marie Curie (Verbatim) (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=529#3)

Question: about Mat's use of 'saidared it' in The Gathering Storm.

Brandon Sanderson: You're assuming that I did that and not Robert Jordan.

Audience: I read it and just laughed and laughed for about ten minutes after that...

Brandon Sanderson: And you can't tell I'm a student of linguistics? Took several upper level linguistic classes. And I've always loved how language shifts over time, and how the changes happen.

Audience: Like 'google' as a verb now?

Brandon Sanderson: Yes, like google as a verb. This is because there is human nature to start making shortcuts in language. And it tends to happen when people such as Mat are taking shortcuts, as they usually do. And so, that sentence can be read from the linguistics side as this is actually naturally what might start to happen unless someone starts enforcing a certain aspect of the language, or you can read it as Mat being Mat.


That Brandon followed through on this in AMoL by having other people who interacted substantially with Mat pick up on his shortened "bloody ashes" terminology is actually a good demonstration of language evolution, in my opinion. We see this with slang in the real world all the time, and the changes take place fairly rapidly, certainly within the two year or so timespan of the books.

AgeOfLegends
01-17-2013, 01:17 AM
Hi,

sorry to nitpick, but not neccesarily! During medieval times it was quite normal to travel rivers which had shallow waters or unpassable rapids. Passengers would disembark and the ship would be transported along the river banks til it could be put back into the river.

At least the vikings and the romans did that in central europe, even between different rivers.

That said, it's still kind of an oversight by BS / TJ, I stumbled there, when I read it myself, just as you did.

greetings,
Menthu

EDIT:
OK, you thought of it yourself, I shouldn't answer postings w/o having read the whole thread.
Apologies, Menthu

Not sure if I'm too late, but its also not uncommon for river ships to have exceptionally shallow draughts. *Note I have no idea how deep (or shallow) a river has to be fordable so maybe it is really impossible. Just throwing it out there.

Davian93
01-17-2013, 07:26 AM
Not sure if I'm too late, but its also not uncommon for river ships to have exceptionally shallow draughts. *Note I have no idea how deep (or shallow) a river has to be fordable so maybe it is really impossible. Just throwing it out there.

For the river to be fordable, it was likely no deeper than 3-4 feet, maybe 5 but that would be pushing it. Even a "shallow draft" ship has a keel deeper than that...that's why they make flat-bottomed boats but those aren't typically driven by sail power as the ones described in TGH are.

In modern sailboats, they make swing-keel ships where you can retract your keel if you want to go into the shallows but even those have a draft around 2-3'on average. An average small sailboat (say a 23') is gonna have a draft in the range of 6-8'

For a ship that can hold horses, cargo and have several cabins, their draft is going to be deeper than a ford. The 23' boat above is a tiny, tiny daysailer type boat.

AgeOfLegends
01-17-2013, 05:42 PM
There ya go.

Another error I came across. p. 694. Demandred is talking about the skill of the enemy general and he says "the finesse of it... the little details... these took centuries to master. No man from this age had lived long enough to learn the details with such care."

Now, while Demandred has indeed lived centuries, according to Lews Therin in tEotW prologue the War of the Power (the first major conflict in the AoL as far as we know) only lasted 10 years. So really many soldiers from the 3rd age should have more combat experience than he has. It's a small thing but bugged me right away when I read it.

Davian93
01-17-2013, 05:48 PM
There ya go.

Another error I came across. p. 694. Demandred is talking about the skill of the enemy general and he says "the finesse of it... the little details... these took centuries to master. No man from this age had lived long enough to learn the details with such care."

Now, while Demandred has indeed lived centuries, according to Lews Therin in tEotW prologue the War of the Power (the first major conflict in the AoL as far as we know) only lasted 10 years. So really many soldiers from the 3rd age should have more combat experience than he has. It's a small thing but bugged me right away when I read it.

Yeah, that one bugged me a lot too.


Here's another one:



Where did Tam get his battle experience? Arganda thought, thinking of the times he'd seen Tam fight. Arganda had known seasoned generals with far less sense of the battlefield than this sheepherder.

However, we know from KOD that Arganda was fully aware of Tam's past as 2nd Captain of the Companions (a position probably comparable to that of a Banner General)


TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 29 - The Last Knot
"I studied them, my Lord," Tam said dryly. Of course he would have. "It looks a good plan to me. As good as any till the arrows start flying." Arganda put a booted foot in his roan's stirrup. "So long as he's your First Captain, my Lord, I have no objections." He had offered plenty earlier. Neither he nor Gallenne had been pleased that Perrin was putting someone over them. From up the slope came a black-winged mocker's shrill cry of alarm. Only one. If it had been a real bird, the call would have been repeated.

Arganda is okay with the plan because the legendary Tam al'Thor signed off on it and was leading it. As a leader of the military of a nearby southern nation, he was well aware of Tam's background.

Its little things like this that are really annoying.

Ishara
01-17-2013, 08:27 PM
Well, were they displeased that someone was being placed over them, or that Tam was? I lean towards a straight interpretation, myself. Meaning, they objected to not being leaders on principle, as opposed to objecting to anyone in particular being placed above them...

Davian93
01-17-2013, 08:30 PM
Well, were they displaced that someone was being placed over them, or that Tam was? I lean towards a straight interpretation, myself. Meaning, they objected to not being leaders on principle, as opposed to objecting to anyone in particular being placed above them...

The key part of it is that they were suddenly okay with the plan...as long as Tam led it. They had a bunch of issues when it was Perrin's plan but once Tam approved, they fell in line. You can also infer that Perrin had probably earlier said "And my First Captain will be leading you" to which they objected but stopped when Perrin introduces Tam al'Thor as his First Captain. Its pretty clear that they knew who he was.

Dom
01-17-2013, 09:31 PM
Well, were they displaced that someone was being placed over them, or that Tam was? I lean towards a straight interpretation, myself. Meaning, they objected to not being leaders on principle, as opposed to objecting to anyone in particular being placed above them...

The larger implied context was that Perrin had told them he got himself a First Captain. They were none too happy - it meant their Lord has picked a Commander to place over them and they made objections to Perrin's battle plan, until that quoted scene when Tam arrives by gateway and joins their meeting. When Perrin introduced Tam as his FC, the commanders who knew him by reputation stopped altogether to object to anything.

And one has to remember that Arganda rarely didn't argue, object or complaint before Tam was named First Captain.

Terez
01-17-2013, 09:40 PM
The key part of it is that they were suddenly okay with the plan...as long as Tam led it.
That's not how I read it at all. They objected to the plan until Tam actually showed up, at which point they had the wisdom/manners not to object in front of him. I don't think Tam is quite that widely known. Marcolin, the current First Captain of the Commanders (assuming he survived), remembers him because he served under him when Tam was Second Captain. I think that's the only person in the entire series that we know of who remembered Tam.

Marie Curie 7
01-18-2013, 01:03 PM
Most of the discussion about Tam has been moved to its own thread, with only the initial discussion left here about whether or not Arganda thinking about Tam's battle/command experience in AMoL is an error or not.

Please feel free to continue the discussion in the new thread. Thanks.

KilMichaelMcC
01-19-2013, 12:10 AM
I'm not 100% certain this counts as an error, but in Rhuarc's POV he thinks of Darlin as "King Darlin" which I don't think an Aiel would do. He'd be "Darlin Sisnera" to him.

CaraighanMaconar
01-20-2013, 07:30 PM
page 831

As the trembling subsided, Logan continued.

^ Logain becomes Logan for one sentence.

C.

Davian93
01-20-2013, 07:31 PM
page 831

As the trembling subsided, Logan continued.

^ Logain becomes Logan for one sentence.

C.

Would have been cooler had he become Weapon X....

Fourth Age Historian
01-20-2013, 07:41 PM
"Oh we had to jump through a gateway in the sky...good thing the AS with us just happens to have a new weave that simulates flying"

This one didn't bother me; they have long talked about how AS in the AOL could fly, and people in the Third Age have long been rediscovering lost weaves and discovering new ones.

Also, given Sanderson's shine for gateways, I got the sense that this was one of many planned uses of them.

Fourth Age Historian
01-20-2013, 07:54 PM
5) What happened to the fact that Elayne's copies couldn't break strong weaves of the OP?

My best guess is that it didn't really matter. Demandred tried a couple of weaves, then just decided to hurl rocks. He was doing a hundred other things, so the specific weaves he directed at Galad were probably not very strong.

Dom
01-21-2013, 09:10 AM
Short of Brandon rewriting the whole episodes I guess there isn't much Maria can do to fix the fact that Min and Mat have been given the sort of relationship that she's rather developed with Perrin over the months spent in the mountains (while she barely ever met Mat, who got carried away by Verin right after the events of Falme, but some of the bigger continuity errors in the scenes might perhaps be smoothed out, e.g:

- "I don't see anything new around you," she said, "though I assume the eye on a balance scale finally makes sense to you."

Min never discussed that Viewing with Mat, nor any of her Viewings of him, actually. She only talked to Rand (and off-screen presumably to Moiraine) about this one, in TEOTW. It's Perrin she discussed her ability with, never Mat.

Mat shouldn't know much at all about Min's Talent (Rand kept it all to himself originally, Moiraine went and told Egwene and Nynaeve about her in Caemlyn. Perrin learned from hanging around Min off-screen for months in TDR), but since the resolution is built around that, there isn't much helping it now.

Page 490:

Min POV again: "Mat wore silken Seanchan clothing—she had heard he was in this camp—but he topped it with his familiar hat."

The hat shouldn't be familiar to Min as she's not crossed Mat's path since the end of TGH. She rejoins Rand in LOC, when Mat has already left Cairhien for Maerone.


----

Mat POV: "More and more, he was thinking that battle maps were about as useful as a heavy coat in Tear."

"Looking back at the maps, Mat felt like cursing again. Maps, maps and more maps. Pieces of paper. Most of them had been sketched by Tuon's clerks in the fading light of the previous evening. How could he know they were accurate?"


The scene also has mere "clerks" draw hasty maps of the area etc. We know from TPOD and KOD that in fact the Seanchan have excellent mapmakers and lieutenants and scout lieutenants (morat'raken) keep the battle maps up to date as a battle goes on:

(POD 24): " From his seat on the dais he could see the map table clearly, where helmetless under-lieutenants checked the reports and placed markers to represent the forces in the field. A small paper banner stood above each marker, inked symbols giving the size and composition of the force. Finding decent maps in these lands was next to impossible, but the map copied atop the large table was sufficient. And worrying, in what it told him. Black discs for outposts overrun or dispersed. Far too many of those, dotting the whole eastern half of the Venir range. Red wedges, for commands on the move, marked the western end as thickly, all pointed back toward Ebou Dar. And scattered among the black discs, seventeen stark white. As he watched, a young officer in the brown-and-black of a morat’torm carefully placed an eighteenth. Enemy forces. A few might be the same group seen twice, but for the most part they were much too far apart, the timing of the sightings wrong."

The whole sudden annoyance with maps is quite out of character for Mat and his military memories. He should be amazed by Bryne's new tricks and such - and it's okay he wished to see the battlefield for himself, but he's always valued battle maps massively before (TFOH episodes and the most telling: the episode with Talmanes mentioning the Band's new mapmaker Master Roidelle in KOD. Not only was Mat quite happy with maps, but he asked immediately for the new mapmaker to be brought to him so he could question him directly. In that scene Tuon considers those maps as invaluable as the new weapon designs.

Mat should actually have been impressed and pleased by the Seanchan extremely well-oiled command posts, with everyone knowing their jobs and doing them well, the speed they get updated from the frontlines by rakens. This is much better than anything Mat has got to work with in the series before.

In those AMOL scenes in Kandor and Altara, he's way, way too contemptuous of the Seanchan military. His assessment of their skills, discipline and tactics from what he's witnessed since their taking of Altara used to be... knowledgeably and professionally respectful. In AMOL he suddenly treats them all like a bunch of bumbling fools who know nothing to nothing "except Tylee". Galgan's gone from an ultra-competent and very politically cunning to a near complete fool Mat treats condescendingly.

It's very weird no Seanchan even suggested if Mat wanted to survey the battlefield himself so badly Yulan could arrange a ride with a morat'raken.

---

Mat: "He had to be careful around Min. He was certain that a smile in the wrong place would earn him a knifing not only from her, but from Tuon"

Min picked up her knife skills after she's last met Mat. He shouldn't know how much of threat she can be.

Mat on Min: "How much relief do you think it would bring Rand if he knew that someone he trusted had Tuon's ear"

Mat knows Rand and Min have sex from the colour swirls, he suddenly speaks as if he knew how really close they are and how much Rand relied on her.

Terez
01-21-2013, 10:40 AM
Thanks for going into detail on Mat/Min. It bugged me a lot, but I worried it was too extensive to fix. :(

Dom
01-21-2013, 10:47 AM
Thanks for going into detail on that one. It bugged me a lot, but I worried it was too extensive to fix. :(

I'm pretty sure not much can/will be done for it - the whole POVs would have to be rewritten extensively.

But perhaps the most jarring mistakes can be fixed.

Another I noticed last night:

The Mora again. It's worse than the ford at Merrilor. Brandon had Lan say in another scene that the river isn't deep enough it's not fordable by cavalry. He really forgot the whole Medo TGH episodes.

GonzoTheGreat
01-21-2013, 10:54 AM
Maybe the river is a bit deeper during the spring floods, or something.

sleepinghour
01-21-2013, 11:09 AM
Nynaeve could possibly have Healed Alanna with the Well since RJ said that even a shielded channeler could use it. However, it's not too much of a stretch that this simply wouldn't have occurred to Nynaeve.

I was more bothered by the fact that they didn't seem to sense each others' emotions when linked; Nynaeve had to look at Rand's expression to determine that he hadn't gone mad from Alanna's death.

Dom
01-21-2013, 11:18 AM
Maybe the river is a bit deeper during the spring floods, or something.

That's what I suggested they add somewhere to cover up the continuity errors, or rather add that and the fact the DO's touch on the weather and the previous long summer have lowered the level of the river to the point it's no longer usable by boats and fords have appeared.

Instead they went and put a ford right where the Mora threw itself in the Erinin. If that was the case, they'd be a village or town at the Field of Merrilor, with docks (to receive/send the trade goods on the Erinin), and the trade ships running Merrilor to Medo would be Shienaran, which they were not in TGH, just normal trade ships the AS hired in Tar Valon.

It's not perfect a solution, as in TGH Medo has long stone docks and all the heavy equipment (cranes etc.) to load and unload trade ships. A small village would never have that if it could only welcome trade ships 2-3 months a year.

It's no small river, one of the two-masts was being loaded with horses and such, the other sat in the middle of the river for the AS and soldiers, and was reached with boats.

Rand al'Fain
01-21-2013, 02:18 PM
Not really an error, but the use of shields (outside of the Legion of the Dragon) ws practically unheard of until AMOL. You hear about 2 handed weapons, or people using 1 handed weapons often enough, but until AMOL, the only people that used shields were the Legion.

Davian93
01-21-2013, 03:04 PM
Thanks for going into detail on Mat/Min. It bugged me a lot, but I worried it was too extensive to fix. :(

Yeah, it bugged me too. Its things like that that ruined the book for me.

Also, Dom, why the hell didnt you come to TL 5 years ago?

Davian93
01-21-2013, 03:11 PM
That's what I suggested they add somewhere to cover up the continuity errors, or rather add that and the fact the DO's touch on the weather and the previous long summer have lowered the level of the river to the point it's no longer usable by boats and fords have appeared.

Instead they went and put a ford right where the Mora threw itself in the Erinin. If that was the case, they'd be a village or town at the Field of Merrilor, with docks (to receive/send the trade goods on the Erinin), and the trade ships running Merrilor to Medo would be Shienaran, which they were not in TGH, just normal trade ships the AS hired in Tar Valon.

It's not perfect a solution, as in TGH Medo has long stone docks and all the heavy equipment (cranes etc.) to load and unload trade ships. A small village would never have that if it could only welcome trade ships 2-3 months a year.

It's no small river, one of the two-masts was being loaded with horses and such, the other sat in the middle of the river for the AS and soldiers, and was reached with boats.

Exactly. Also, there should be a town at that confluence anyway as historically there is almost always a town and major trade center where two rivers merge...especially when its a border between two prosperous nations.

It makes zero sense that its uninhabited. If anything, you'd think the Borderland nations would have their population centers as far back from the Blight as possible to make them more defendable. The fact that they're crammed up against the Blight makes no sense from a strategic point of view. Having fortresses and even towns like Fal Dara? Sure, those forts and soldiers need logistical centers anyway. Having the lion's share of your population? Doesnt seem to make any sense.




Another thing on rivers in WoT that has always bothered me...why aren't there any cataracts on the major rivers? In the real world, no rivers are navigable that far from the ocean because of elevation changes and cataracts (waterfalls). There will be navigable stretches but you have to build canals around such stretches. In WoT, the Erinin is navigable from Tear to northern Shienar. The Manetherendrelle is navigable all the way to Saldaea.

One of those minor things that bugged me from the start.

rand
01-21-2013, 08:07 PM
I'd need to reread to make sure, but I think the Illianers are completely absent from the Battle of Merrilor. They're with Egwene in Kandor to start, and then Gregorin pops up again at the end, but I don't think they're even mentioned anywhere in between. There's so many different factions, though, it's entirely possible I just missed them.

Regarding Mat and Min, it didn't bother me a whole lot. Min (obviously, because of the viewings) has observed Mat without him knowing at Baerlon and probably at Falme. And Mat has probably seen more of Min than most people lol (thru Rand's colors). But, yeah, they aren't exactly friends.

Rand al'Fain
01-21-2013, 08:10 PM
I'd need to reread to make sure, but I think the Illianers are completely absent from the Battle of Merrilor. They're with Egwene in Kandor to start, and then Gregorin pops up again at the end, but I don't think they're even mentioned anywhere in between. There's so many different factions, though, it's entirely possible I just missed them.

Regarding Mat and Min, it didn't bother me a whole lot. Min (obviously, because of the viewings) has observed Mat without him knowing at Baerlon and probably at Falme. And Mat has probably seen more of Min than most people lol (thru Rand's colors). But, yeah, they aren't exactly friends.

More like acquaintances, as they do get along alright and have never fought eachother, but are not close enough to be friends.

Terez
01-21-2013, 08:14 PM
Also, Dom, why the hell didnt you come to TL 5 years ago?
He did, actually, when he got a little bored with Wotmania. He and I have been in contact for about 6 years, with a gap. Then he got busy with 13th Depository, and then he disappeared from the WoT world altogether for a couple of years. Now he's back. He was back at RAFO for a while, but god only knows why. ;) I went over there to discuss with him a few times until he finally got the hint and came back here. :p

GonzoTheGreat
01-22-2013, 03:20 AM
Why did Graendal manage to influence Bryne?
According to what we've heard in TEOTW, Warders are protected from that kind of thing, as are people who sleep close enough to an AS. Bryne fit both conditions, so Graendal shouldn't have been able to influence his dreams.

Sarevok
01-22-2013, 03:23 AM
Why did Graendal manage to influence Bryne?
According to what we've heard in TEOTW, Warders are protected from that kind of thing, as are people who sleep close enough to an AS. Bryne fit both conditions, so Graendal shouldn't have been able to influence his dreams.

The easiest answer would be: Moiraine was wrong.
It's very much possible that Graendal knew weaves no current Age Aes Sedai is aware of and could penetrate the defenses you mentioned. ;)

maacaroni
01-22-2013, 05:03 AM
p817

“Gambler,” Hawkwing replied. “Do take better care of what has been alotted you. Almost, I worried we would not be summoned for this fight.”
__________
As far as I can tell, that's not a legitimate alternative spelling for 'allotted'.

No, that's correct.

maacaroni
01-22-2013, 05:04 AM
What happened to Roedran after the big meet?

GonzoTheGreat
01-22-2013, 06:06 AM
What happened to Roedran after the big meet?
He turned into Demandred, for "they were not two men, and never had been". Or was that another scene?

The Unreasoner
01-22-2013, 04:39 PM
There ya go.

Another error I came across. p. 694. Demandred is talking about the skill of the enemy general and he says "the finesse of it... the little details... these took centuries to master. No man from this age had lived long enough to learn the details with such care."

Now, while Demandred has indeed lived centuries, according to Lews Therin in tEotW prologue the War of the Power (the first major conflict in the AoL as far as we know) only lasted 10 years. So really many soldiers from the 3rd age should have more combat experience than he has. It's a small thing but bugged me right away when I read it.
This bugged me too. Although, there is this (which argues for a war longer than 16 years):

Coumin knelt at the edge of the plowed ground in his working clothes, plain brownish gray coat and breeches and soft laced boots, in a line with others like him that surrounded the field, ten men of the Da’shain Aiel at twice stretched arms’ length and then an Ogier, all the way around. He could see the next field, lined the same way, beyond the soldiers with their shocklances sitting atop armored jo-cars. A hoverfly buzzed overhead in its patrol, a deadly black metal wasp containing two men. He was sixteen, and the women had decided his voice was finally deep enough to join in the seed singing.
The soldiers fascinated him, men and Ogier, the way a colorful poisonous snake might. They killed. His father’s greatfather, Charn, claimed there had been no soldiers once, but Coumin did not believe it. If there were no soldiers, who would stop the Nightriders and the Trollocs from coming to kill everyone? Of course, Charn claimed there had not been any Myrddraal or Trollocs then, either. No Forsaken, no Shadowwrought. He had many stories he claimed were from a time before soldiers and Nightriders and Trollocs, when he said the Dark Lord of the Grave had been bound away, and no one knew his name, or the word “war.” Coumin could not imagine such a world; the war had been old when he was born."

From TSR. Some gray area, and in any case the bulk of Demandred's life was during peacetime. But relevant.

Sukoto
01-22-2013, 06:32 PM
Please for the love of God let this not be the case...

I doubt it is but that would be terrible. BS spent his Mission trip in Korea so its possible it was from his time there.
I doubt Knotai is influenced by Korean. The sound "eye" is not one of the Korean vowels. They have to put two vowels together to make that sound, so the name would sound more like "no-ta-ee" with three distinct syllables. However, Japanese does have the sounds "No" and "Tai" as single syllables. It sounds much more Japanese than Korean.

Terez
01-22-2013, 06:57 PM
Yeah, I asked a Korean friend about it when it came up, and she went into a long explanation of why it wasn't likely a Korean reference. Notai is a Japanese name but it isn't common and it doesn't mean anything.

Dom
01-22-2013, 10:57 PM
The first time around this bugged me, but I brushed it off believing I must have misread or lost track of a mention of where they were or something, as between Maria and the betas, Brandon could not possibly have done such a mistake.

But on my reread I've reached the point where Aviendha is briefly captured by red veils and she asks for circles, gets two small ones, that had to include AS sworn to Rand and two WO - and Sorilea speaks of going to find a few more and then asking off-duty Windfinders to join manage to get a third circle. Huh, what? It's all the WO channelers Aviendha had?

Brandon really made a huge error. The Shaido clan alone had over 400 WO who could channel at Malden - about 200 hundred of them got captured by the Seanchan. It's a big clan, but still... with eleven clans involved in the LB the total number of WO who can channel has to be above 2500 and it's probably conservative. Brandon gave Aviendha a pathetic skeleton crew of WO at Shayol Ghul. Elayne has but a handful (the six with Perrin plus a few extras.. and they're forgotten in nearly all Elayne's tallies of her channelers in the book), Egwene has none, Lan has none, a few like Melaine went to lend their strength to Yellows in Mayene. Where the heck have the thousands of WO channelers gone? Brandon just went and deprived the Light of its biggest group of female channelers. There's no helping that now, but that's a really big error. None of the battles Brandon designed would have gone as they do with these extra 2000-3000 or more female channelers... that could easily double the number of women with Egwene, and added 500 for both Lan and Elayne and still leave 1000 with Aviendha! And if they were all with Aviendha, the battle at Shayol Ghul, the scale of it, the tactics etc. would have been nothing like it is in the book.

:(

Dom
01-22-2013, 11:36 PM
P. 568

Not a big error in comparison with others:

"Faile! Faile! Aravine says she has finished checking over the manifests for you. We can go, Faile."

In that scene the usally very proper Aravine is suddenly on a first name basis with her lady.

She's back to her usual "My Lady"/"Lady Faile" elsewhere.

About Mat. I'm not sure this is an error, as perhaps Laras is serving the gallery a story rehearsed with Egwene. But if not:

"Tabac, at a time like this." Laras shook her head, wiping her fingers on her apron. "I remember that boy. I've known a youth or two in my day like him, always skulking around the kitchens like a stray wanting scraps. Someone ought to find something useful for him to do."

Laras has never met Mat, he's never set foot anywhere near her kitchens. He stuck to his room, except once to visit the grounds.

Sid
01-23-2013, 04:00 AM
I got my book very late, just finished it today.

The first thing I thought of when I read that Mat's PotR name was Knotai was 'naughty'. I hope not.

Joline, Bode Cauthon, Talanvor, Sulin, mentioned at all?

Ones you guys mentioned:
The Mat/Min scenes were way too familiar... "Eye on a balance scale" was never stated to Mat.

Uno led 1000 men in TPoD, certainly officer material.

People calling people names that they don't know

Terez
01-23-2013, 06:27 AM
The Mat/Min scenes were way too familiar... "Eye on a balance scale" was never stated to Mat.
Not by Min, but Rand told him about it.

fionwe1987
01-23-2013, 08:45 AM
The first time around this bugged me, but I brushed it off believing I must have misread or lost track of a mention of where they were or something, as between Maria and the betas, Brandon could not possibly have done such a mistake.

But on my reread I've reached the point where Aviendha is briefly captured by red veils and she asks for circles, gets two small ones, that had to include AS sworn to Rand and two WO - and Sorilea speaks of going to find a few more and then asking off-duty Windfinders to join manage to get a third circle. Huh, what? It's all the WO channelers Aviendha had?

Brandon really made a huge error. The Shaido clan alone had over 400 WO who could channel at Malden - about 200 hundred of them got captured by the Seanchan. It's a big clan, but still... with eleven clans involved in the LB the total number of WO who can channel has to be above 2500 and it's probably conservative. Brandon gave Aviendha a pathetic skeleton crew of WO at Shayol Ghul. Elayne has but a handful (the six with Perrin plus a few extras.. and they're forgotten in nearly all Elayne's tallies of her channelers in the book), Egwene has none, Lan has none, a few like Melaine went to lend their strength to Yellows in Mayene. Where the heck have the thousands of WO channelers gone? Brandon just went and deprived the Light of its biggest group of female channelers. There's no helping that now, but that's a really big error. None of the battles Brandon designed would have gone as they do with these extra 2000-3000 or more female channelers... that could easily double the number of women with Egwene, and added 500 for both Lan and Elayne and still leave 1000 with Aviendha! And if they were all with Aviendha, the battle at Shayol Ghul, the scale of it, the tactics etc. would have been nothing like it is in the book.

:(
The worse thing is, there was an easy way to handle the WO numbers... the Red Veils. I refuse to believe that over 2000 years, the accumulated number of channelers in the Town is about 20. Would Moridin really have killed so many if the numbers were so small?

All Brandon had to do was have the Aiel realize what was happening to their male channelers earlier in the book. The WO would feel they had enormous Toh, and would have focussed on hunting and killing these men.

Even then, the numbers would be asymmetric, but at least its more believable. As it is, Brandon simply forgot about the WO so that he could reduce the scale of the battle at Shayol Ghul.

Same with the Windfinders. There are supposed to be hundreds. I think there were a hundred at SG. Do you really need all that many to make Gateways, when they can form circles?

fionwe1987
01-23-2013, 10:26 AM
She looked at him, curious. She untied the strings, and took from it a
small statue of a woman. She stood upright, with a shawl about her shoulders,
though she did not look like an Aes Sedai. She had a mature face, aged
and wise, with a wise look about her and a smile on her face.
“An angreal?” Elayne asked.

Elayne should know, as soon as she touched it, whether it was an angreal or not.

“You have the Talent of creating ter’angreal,” Rand said.
How can Rand possibly know this?

Davian93
01-23-2013, 10:29 AM
How can Rand possibly know this?

Maybe Avi told him?

David Selig
01-23-2013, 10:36 AM
How can Rand possibly know this?
It's not exactly a secret, is it? Nynaeve knows and she spent months with Rand between WH and ToM. I know WoT characters aren't big on sharing info, but it may well have been mentioned in an offscreen conversation between them.

Or maybe Elayne herself told him in WH, in between all the sex. :p

fionwe1987
01-24-2013, 01:07 AM
Hmmm... not sure if this is an error so much as yet another case of a character knowing things they shouldn't, but... how did Egwene know Mat's ter'angreal was a foxhead? I suppose Elayne could have told her, but it bugs me that even though we see Egwene refer to it in Mat's PoV, he isn't surprised she mentions his "fox". He just rolls along with her play.

fionwe1987
01-24-2013, 01:32 AM
“I am the son of Tigraine,” Rand said, shrugging, “born after she went
to the Waste and became a Maiden.”
Gawyn looked stunned, though Egwene had figured this out ages ago.

Ummm... how? She only knew Shaiel was a wetlander, possibly blonde. I doubt she knew much about Tigraine and why she ran away. How did she figure this out? And if she figured it out ages ago, why didn't she tell her best chum Elayne? Why didn't she wonder about this when she saw Galad in Merrilor, standing a few feet away from Rand?

Zombie Sammael
01-24-2013, 02:12 AM
Ummm... how? She only knew Shaiel was a wetlander, possibly blonde. I doubt she knew much about Tigraine and why she ran away. How did she figure this out? And if she figured it out ages ago, why didn't she tell her best chum Elayne? Why didn't she wonder about this when she saw Galad in Merrilor, standing a few feet away from Rand?

Egwene spent a rather large amount of time with the Aiel Wise Ones, who might well have known Tigraine was more than just "a wetland princess". In addition, she had access to all of the Aes Sedai foretellings within her records, that she no doubt referred to in her search for answers regarding the sealing. Those may have provided vital clues. Also, she had seen Galad - that counts for something regarding family resemblance. All in all, it's not much of a stretch to think she might have been able to work it out.

fionwe1987
01-24-2013, 02:14 AM
Egwene spent a rather large amount of time with the Aiel Wise Ones, who might well have known Tigraine was more than just "a wetland princess". In addition, she had access to all of the Aes Sedai foretellings within her records, that she no doubt referred to in her search for answers regarding the sealing. Those may have provided vital clues. Also, she had seen Galad - that counts for something regarding family resemblance. All in all, it's not much of a stretch to think she might have been able to work it out.
Her not mentioning ever before is a huge stretch, then. And how does Tigraine pop into research on the Seals?

Terez
01-24-2013, 03:02 AM
She was there:

"You knew my mother," he said. Egwene leaned forward, as intent as he, and Mat shook his head.
Egwene was just dying to know the story. I'd be shocked if she hadn't figured it out.

fionwe1987
01-24-2013, 03:09 AM
She was there:


Egwene was just dying to know the story. I'd be shocked if she hadn't figured it out.
Oh I know she was there, but that revealed only half the story. Rand got the rest figured out when Dyelin told him Tigraine's story, which matched up very well to Shaiel's. But I don't know how Egwene would have gotten those intimiate details. Perhaps Siuan, but that still doesn't explain why she didn't tell Elayne, or wonder about it when she saw Galad and Rand in the same room. If she had figured it out long ago, then she was probably the only one in the tent at Merrilor apart from Rand who knew about the relationship with Galad.

I guess her not thinking of it is not so much an error as poor writing, though.

Terez
01-24-2013, 03:25 AM
They weren't really intimate details; they were pretty much common knowledge, and Rand and Mat heard them in a farmer's cart all the way back in TEOTW. The only further significant details he learned in LOC were that 1) he resembled Tigraine, and 2) he was not related to Elayne. She couldn't tell Elayne because it wasn't her secret to tell.

Daekyras
01-24-2013, 05:23 AM
They weren't really intimate details; they were pretty much common knowledge, and Rand and Mat heard them in a farmer's cart all the way back in TEOTW. The only further significant details he learned in LOC were that 1) he resembled Tigraine, and 2) he was not related to Elayne. She couldn't tell Elayne because it wasn't her secret to tell.

Until they all went of the Ricki Lake show?

Actually, is that still on? Gerry Springer? Maury? TYRA???

David Selig
01-24-2013, 05:48 AM
They weren't really intimate details; they were pretty much common knowledge, and Rand and Mat heard them in a farmer's cart all the way back in TEOTW. The only further significant details he learned in LOC were that 1) he resembled Tigraine, and 2) he was not related to Elayne. She couldn't tell Elayne because it wasn't her secret to tell.
But Egwene already told Elayne what the Wise Ones told Rand about his parents back in TSR:

“How is he?” Elayne’s voice was a strange blend of forced casualness and apprehension.

“Well,” Egwene said. “I think he is.” She made it a full report. The Portal Stones, and Rhuidean—as much as she knew from what she had heard; what she had managed to infer from talk of seeing through ancestors’ eyes—the strange creature from the Dragon banner marked on Rand’s forearms, Bair’s revelation that he was the Aiel’s doom, the summons of the clan chiefs to Alcair Dal. Amys and the other Wise Ones should be doing that even now; she fervently hoped they were. She even told the strange story of Rand’s true parents, in a shorter form.

Egwene's PoV at this moment doesn't indicate in any way that she had connected the dots about Tigraine and Rand. Not surprising since she she didn't know about Gitara's role in Andor and connection to Tigraine. I guess she may have learned this later and put everything together (if she remembered Elayne's comment from TDR that Rand looked very much like Tigraine, it would've been easier) but figuring something like this offscreen and never telling Elayne seems like a poor writing to me.

Davian93
01-24-2013, 07:10 AM
Speaking of which, as Elayne had heard Egwene's story regarding Rand's parentage, how the hell would she not put it together. I'm taking a leap of faith here but I'd imagine that the Daughter-Heir would be intimately familiar with Tigraine's story...that plus the resemblance should have been a no brainer...even for Elayne.

GonzoTheGreat
01-24-2013, 08:40 AM
It probably didn't involve having her be captured, which made it unfamiliar territory.

David Selig
01-24-2013, 12:30 PM
Speaking of which, as Elayne had heard Egwene's story regarding Rand's parentage, how the hell would she not put it together. I'm taking a leap of faith here but I'd imagine that the Daughter-Heir would be intimately familiar with Tigraine's story...that plus the resemblance should have been a no brainer...even for Elayne.
Yeah, I've always thought this is implausible and contrived. Especially after the remark by Elayne in TDR that Rand resembles Tigraine an awful lot.

Dom
01-24-2013, 12:53 PM
Page 622

Mat asks Egwene if there are news of Perrin, there's none and he thinks he doesn't want to be the one to tell his wife he's gone missing.

It's one of a few instances past Rand's meeting with Mat in Ebou Dar when the ta'veren's colour swirls seem to have stopped altogether but none of the three mentions they've stopped. It's especially odd from Mat, after all the fuss he used to make about them.

Davian93
01-24-2013, 12:58 PM
Page 622

Mat asks Egwene if there are news of Perrin, there's none and he thinks he doesn't want to be the one to tell his wife he's gone missing.

It's one of a few instances past Rand's meeting with Mat in Ebou Dar when the ta'veren's colour swirls seem to have stopped altogether but none of the three mentions they've stopped. It's especially odd from Mat, after all the fuss he used to make about them.

Isnt Perrin in TAR at that time? Do the Swirls work if one is in another dimension like that?

rand
01-24-2013, 03:27 PM
When Demandred's fighting Lan, he for some reason jumps to the conclusion that he might be fighting Asmodean. For one, why on earth would he possibly suspect Asmo, of all people, to pull out a sword and start a duel with him? And, more significantly, Demandred already knows from the beginning of LoC that Asmo is dead and not coming back. It just seemed like the most bizarre guess Demandred could have made.

Zombie Sammael
01-24-2013, 07:07 PM
When Demandred's fighting Lan, he for some reason jumps to the conclusion that he might be fighting Asmodean. For one, why on earth would he possibly suspect Asmo, of all people, to pull out a sword and start a duel with him? And, more significantly, Demandred already knows from the beginning of LoC that Asmo is dead and not coming back. It just seemed like the most bizarre guess Demandred could have made.

You may not have noticed, but Demandred was a little bit nuts by that point.

Dom
01-24-2013, 07:55 PM
Isnt Perrin in TAR at that time? Do the Swirls work if one is in another dimension like that?


Not necessarily, and it seems they've stopped working at some point (after Rand and Mat met? When Rand entered SG?). I was pointing out the fact Brandon totally forgot to have the characters react to any of that. The colour swirls built up to nothing at all.

Brandon botched the series's last throws of the Mat's mind-dice, but at least he kept mentioning them here and there all the way to Merrilor.

The colour swirls just were there and then were not.

It looks like an unintentional omission. He knew by which point the swirls stopped being there, but he forgot to integrate mentions of this in the scenes.

It's not terribly important, it's pretty obvious that beside the purpose of time markers for us they were meant to let the ta'veren know when it was time, a call Mat tried to ignore but Rand went to fetch him, but it would have been nice to know when exactly they actually stopped.

Sid
01-26-2013, 01:43 AM
A thought about the second time they blew the Horn of Valere in the blight occurred to me. They need the banner of the Dragon to fight for the hornsounder, apparently. But Mat dropped the banner of the Dragon and Olver looked at the sign in the sky of the Dragon's Fang and Flame of Tar Valon (from what I gather on Darrel Sweet's cover art) and said they were under his banner already. How does that make any sense? It's not even the same symbol as the ancient symbol of Aes Sedai that Rand used in battle before.

eht slat meit
01-26-2013, 02:25 AM
A thought about the second time they blew the Horn of Valere in the blight occurred to me. They need the banner of the Dragon to fight for the hornsounder, apparently. But Mat dropped the banner of the Dragon and Olver looked at the sign in the sky of the Dragon's Fang and Flame of Tar Valon (from what I gather on Darrel Sweet's cover art) and said they were under his banner already. How does that make any sense? It's not even the same symbol as the ancient symbol of Aes Sedai that Rand used in battle before.

Aren't the "ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai" and the Dragon's Fang/Flame of Tar Valon the same thing?

i.e. a modified yin-yang symbol of balance?

Rand al'Fain
01-26-2013, 02:45 AM
Aren't the "ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai" and the Dragon's Fang/Flame of Tar Valon the same thing?

i.e. a modified yin-yang symbol of balance?

Pretty much.

Sid
01-26-2013, 02:54 AM
Aren't the "ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai" and the Dragon's Fang/Flame of Tar Valon the same thing?

i.e. a modified yin-yang symbol of balance?

yeah, because for some reason my brain isn't working. The first time I read a description of it way back when I pictured it some other way, and I always have since.

But it's still not 'the banner' as far as I understand it. The one with the picture of a dragon on it.

GonzoTheGreat
01-26-2013, 04:27 AM
yeah, because for some reason my brain isn't working. The first time I read a description of it way back when I pictured it some other way, and I always have since.

But it's still not 'the banner' as far as I understand it. The one with the picture of a dragon on it.
True. Then again, was it "the Dragon banner" which they needed, or "the Dragon's banner"?

That makes a big difference. And this time, Rand (the Dragon) had been using two different banners, and made both his. He had been using the one that LTT had had, which had been stored with the Horn. But he had also been using the yin-yang one, and people were calling that the Dragon Banner too.

So it seems most likely that at TG this time, there were two banners which worked. What would have happened if they'd been at opposing sides then is of course an interesting question, which someone may put to BS sometime.

Dom
01-27-2013, 02:54 PM
Page 730:

Ogier at war, though . . . it was not something Mat had ever seen. He did not have any memory of it in the memories that were not his.

I guess it's always possible Mat has no memory of Ogier - what he has is fairly selective after all - but it rather sounds like a simple mistake: Brandon wrote this as if the last time the Ogier joined Men in war was during the War of Shadow, thus outside the timeline of Mat's memories, thus the remark.

But if it's what Brandon was getting at with this remark, he's wrong. The early series established the last time the Ogier fought massively in war alongside Men was rather through the Trolloc Wars (eg: they tried to come to Manetheren's help but failed to reach it in time), a period from which Mat has plenty of memories. It makes it fairly unlikely he has not a single memory of seeing Ogier on a battlefield.

fionwe1987
01-27-2013, 03:17 PM
Page 730:



I guess it's always possible Mat has no memory of Ogier - what he has is fairly selective after all - but it rather sounds like a simple mistake: Brandon wrote this as if the last time the Ogier joined Men in war was during the War of Shadow, thus outside the timeline of Mat's memories, thus the remark.

But if it's what Brandon was getting at with this remark, he's wrong. The early series established the last time the Ogier fought massively in war alongside Men was rather through the Trolloc Wars (eg: they tried to come to Manetheren's help but failed to reach it in time), a period from which Mat has plenty of memories. It makes it fairly unlikely he has not a single memory of seeing Ogier on a battlefield.

And if not direct memories, the men whose memories he has should have at least had second hand accounts.

Dom
01-27-2013, 04:44 PM
Returning to the colour swirls thing from page 622, and the fact Mat doesn't even mention he no longer see visions about Perrin.

Something from page 751 makes it look even more like a mistake, that if Perrin being in TAR in the flesh has stopped the visions, Mat should most definitely have noticed this, and he should probably worry that it means Perrin is dead.

On page 751 we learn that since Rand has entered SG, Mat only sees a black nothingness when he thinks of him, and he feels his ta'veren pull. He dispels the vision.

So the "colour swirls" are still working after all. Brandon simply forgot to mention them in several instances mid-books when the ta'veren think of one another in POVs, and as it seems likely TAR is interfering with Mat's/Perrin's connection, it should probably be mentioned in the scene with Egwene on page 622.

It's all the more odd that Mat thinks a few times of Perrin in the book, and in one scene he even thinks "Poor Perrin" when he learns Faile is missing, so he doesn't believe him dead. Either he should have had a vision of Perrin thinking that, or he should wonder if the fact it's gone means Perrin is dead, since it still works between Rand and him.

Brandon got me confused for a moment and wondering if the colours even worked between Perrin-Mat or simply between Perrin-Rand and Mat-Rand, but indeed there's plenty of references they work between all three.

missbee
01-27-2013, 04:47 PM
Perhaps he went out to meditate under the Bodhi Tree...

On a side note, as you seem a bit more detailed oriented than me. Approximately how long was Rand fighting the DO in aMoL? It was only a little while for him due to the time distortion but how long was it in the real world?

It'd be interesting if it was one of those 40 days/40 nights type events to see if there are more biblical parallels that RJ used.


Just finished a timeline (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkoVqSXYFOjzdG5BR3RPY09vcFM4VnlwYWtQNUxSU lE) and I have to say AMOL has even more holes in it than TOM (or perhaps just the one, but bigger).
Though there are lots of cross references, there are also contradictions and some of the timestamps are too vague to be of much use. The different 'timezones don't make it any easier either.
The end result:
From the meeting at FoM to the Epilogue = 45 days (+/- 5 days) or 39 days (+/- 5 days)
Rand at the Bore = 11 or 20 days

Dom
01-27-2013, 06:41 PM
A small editing error:

Pages 761, Faile POV, as she rides to catch up Aravine. She appears not to guess who the Sharans are, and about a minute later on page 762 she simply knows who they are:

"She cut to the side, urging Bela to leap a pile of supplies and charging through the center of a group of people in strange clothing, eating beside a small fire. They yelled after her with thick accents".

Page 762:

"She'd picked up some dozen Sharan soldiers on horseback, all chasing her, wearing cloth armor sewn with small rings."


It's the first description on page 761 which is odd. Faile knew to expect Sharans - she heard all about their devastating arrival on the Shadow's side while in Tar Valon and mentions this on screen in her TV POV.

Dom
01-27-2013, 07:24 PM
Just finished a timeline (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkoVqSXYFOjzdG5BR3RPY09vcFM4VnlwYWtQNUxSU lE) and I have to say AMOL has even more holes in it than TOM (or perhaps just the one, but bigger).
Though there are lots of cross references, there are also contradictions and some of the timestamps are too vague to be of much use. The different 'timezones don't make it any easier either.
The end result:
From the meeting at FoM to the Epilogue = 45 days (+/- 5 days) or 39 days (+/- 5 days)
Rand at the Bore = 11 or 20 days


One thing to either correct or perhaps add to your list of inconsistencies:

In TOM Mat doesn't have Pips to go to Ghenjei, the three of them are on foot. He means to return to the Band of the Red Hand's camp at Caemlyn. He told Moiraine and Thom that as they come out. He arranged for Grady to open a gateway every day at noon.

In your chronology you have this happen at midday before the attack on Caemlyn which will start at dusk.

It can't be.

- Either there's an error in TOM (that's an RJ scene) and Mat didn't mean to return to the Band's camp, so Grady brought him Pips and his stuff.

- Either Mat did go to the band's camp, in which case you have this happen one day too early. He can't have gone for his stuff in the camp without anyone knowing. It's pretty clear in the TOM epilogue Olver, Talmanes and the others have no notion of Mat having returned then gone again with an Asha'man.

- If you place this on the next day, the morning of Merrilor, then we have another problem: Mat makes no mention of the fall of Caemlyn in chapter 11, and Rand had the meeting start extremely early. It starts on time, takes all place on screen without time gaps and thus lasts maybe 15 min. to an hour if we're generous, before Moiraine arrives, thus she shows up many hours before noon.

She of course had no good reason to stay hidden if she arrived the same day Rand did.

Something just doesn't work, but the best explanation is that Grady on the day of Merrilor didn't come at noon but was there at dawn, their last chance not to miss the meeting. As we know they exited after noon, so if Grady came very early instead of noon, they would have been there. That doesn't fix the problem with Pips and the bundle of clothes. I guess we have to assume Mat learned from Grady about the fall of Caemlyn and the evacuation of the Band and their followers to Merrilor, and had Grady bring Moiraine and Thom there and fetch his clothes and Pips and return, to send him to Ebou Dar.

That makes Mat one hell of a jerk, though! In chapter 11 he doesn't give any thought for his friends, for the Band that fought in Caemlyn, for Elayne who lost her city, for what happened to the Dragons. Nothing. It's clear that for Brandon in chapter 11 Mat left prior to the attack on Caemlyn, but Moiraine had to arrive early morning on the day of Merrilor so after the attack, which means she had to leave the vicinity of Ghenjei the day before at noon... and then she has a whole day and night unaccounted for. And Brandon clearly forgot Mat meant to go back to the Band's camp in TOM before going south, and that he didn't have Pips and his stuff, and that he had no returned yet when the attack on Caemlyn started at dusk, on the day prior to Merrilor.

It sounds very likely he had one timeline in mind for the events in TOM, and it's been revised for AMOL and now has created inconsistencies.

I guess Terez nailed it months ago. With Brandon at the helm it's really better to just embrace the mantra of the Malazan fans: "there is no timeline" until we end up believing it.

Davian93
01-27-2013, 07:31 PM
Well, um, you see, there was a, um, loosening, yes, a loosening of the Pattern that has, well, it has, it um, it changed, yes changed is the word we're looking for here, it CHANGED the timeline from what you seem to have, um, come up with here...yes, that's the ticket.

Dom
01-27-2013, 08:13 PM
Well, um, you see, there was a, um, loosening, yes, a loosening of the Pattern that has, well, it has, it um, it changed, yes changed is the word we're looking for here, it CHANGED the timeline from what you seem to have, um, come up with here...yes, that's the ticket.

LOL! It loosened a whole lot more than the timeline!!!

I wonder, is it physically possible for the characters to see Dragonmount in the distance from southern Shienar?

eht slat meit
01-27-2013, 09:09 PM
yeah, because for some reason my brain isn't working. The first time I read a description of it way back when I pictured it some other way, and I always have since.

Yeah, I once thought that was kind of a neat trick of visualization that maybe I was over-thinking until I saw the woman's cape on the cover of LoC, then it kind of clicked for me, though the cape isn't exactly the way I picture it.

But it's still not 'the banner' as far as I understand it. The one with the picture of a dragon on it.

True enough, but the Horn has already sounded once, the banner flown, and the Dragon's face is known by the Heroes. Seems redundant to require it again.

Dom
01-27-2013, 09:35 PM
True enough, but the Horn has already sounded once, the banner flown, and the Dragon's face is known by the Heroes. Seems redundant to require it again.

Indeed.

The whole thing seems to involve a mechanism to ensure the Horn is sounded for the Light/for the Dragon's soul, and it seems the Wheel itself is the mechanism that can hold them.

We also probably made too much of out of Hawkwing's comment in TGH. He seemed surprised to feel held back, went through possibilities and only then he asked for the Banner to be raised.

What we interpreted as a rule of the Horn seems in the end to have been something the Wheel required to let the Heroes do their things. Hakwing went down the list "hmm.. the Dragon is there, and the Horn was sounded by a follower, so hmmm.. oh, maybe the banner". The Pattern needed the Dragon to proclaim himself. It's Hawkwing who made it happen by asking the banner to be raised.

There was no need for any of that at Merrilor. It's not like the Heroes didn't know which side had sounded the Horn, and the Wheel had no purpose to hold back the Heroes.

fionwe1987
01-27-2013, 10:26 PM
Okay, I know there's a ton of anachronistic words that are used, and a ton of words that make no sense in the WoT world. But I think I've found the straw that broke the camel's back:

Or was Galgan telegraphing his emotions purposefully? Was he the spy?

In what addle minded haze did Brandon forget that telegraphs did not exist in the world of the Wheel of Time? I guess we should be glad that Brandon's ideas on "linguistics" didn't convince him to have people refer to mail sent via Gateway as "gmail"...

GonzoTheGreat
01-28-2013, 04:35 AM
Well, there is a proto-telegraph:
She sniffed louder this time. “Foolishness, my Lord Dragon, that is what they make. Kin Tovere constructed his big looking glass. You can see the moon through it plain as your hand, and what he claims are other worlds, but what is the good of that? He wants to build a bigger, now. Maryl Harke makes huge kites she calls gliders, and come spring, she will be throwing herself off hills again. Puts your heart in your mouth to see her sailing downhill on the things; she will break more than her arm next time one folds up on her, I warrant. Jander Parentakis believes he can move riverboats with waterwheels off a mill, or near enough, but when he put enough men into the boat to turn the cranks, there was no room for cargo, and any craft with sails could outrun it. Ryn Anhara traps lightning in big jars—I doubt even he knows why—Niko Tokama is just as silly with her—“
Rand spun around so fast that she stepped back, and even Dobraine shifted on his feet, a swordman’s move. No, they were not sure of him at all. “He traps lightning?” he asked quietly.
It's a small step (just a few centuries) from rudimentary electricity to the telegraph.
Just as it is only a small step from a bunch of exploding copper pipes to a working steam wagon.

missbee
01-28-2013, 10:07 AM
Thanks for reminding me, I meant to add this one to the list.


That makes Mat one hell of a jerk, though!
Yup. 'Totally devoid of empathy' was my thought by the end of AMOL. It is necessary to a certain extent, after all, if there is no attempt to solve the damane question in AMOL and Mat is going to spend time with his wife, and have his own damane, he can't be too squeemish. A tender-hearted Seanchan general wouldn't last into any outriggers either. No, Mat has morphed into a perfect partner for Tuon. Not nice at all. It's not a complete surprise though, even back in TFOH he never thought of helping his friends in Cairhien, never worried about them, his only thought was to get away. This time he actually manages it.

- It is very doubtful whether Mat went to Caemlyn, as you say, Olver or Talemanes would have mentioned it. Somewhere in AMOL Mat mentions deliberately avoiding the AS, which I understood to mean he deliberately avoided showing up at FoM (sorry, no reference, don't have the book with me). Traveling there, collecting Pips and sneaking off, without announcing his presence fits right in.

- Pips was probably already with Perrin. Since they originally left for ToG from Perrin's camp, and since their exit would also be provided by Perrin, it would make sense for Mat to leave Pips in his care. Fetching it is no problem.

- Mat's 'nice coats' from ch11 may have been acquired at any time. IIRC the only nice coat Mat had in Caemlyn was the one Thom bought him. He may have bought some more after his visit to Elayne and collected them from FoM, or, bought some new ones before he rides into Ebou Dar. Perrin sees a vision of Mat riding somewhere whilst at FoM, but there is nothing to tie it in with ch 11. The vision and the chapter could be as much as two weeks apart without causing any problems (the timeline had the two events connected, but that was a mistake and I've corrected it now)

Putting it all together, it does seem there was some plot/timeline revision which created inconsistencies, but the fudge is reasonably believable - maybe seeing Thom and Moiraine together made Mat lonesome for Tuon and he changed his mind about Caemlyn? (well, something like that... *shrugs*)

Moiraine, however, is a much bigger problem.
That's just a mistake plain and simple. The best way out of it probably is the extra gateway at dawn you've suggested

And there I was thinking I could tie up loose ends and answer some questions if I finished off the timelines
Bah
I'll be working on that mantra...

@Davian93
lol!

GonzoTheGreat
01-28-2013, 10:29 AM
Having the gateway a bit earlier sort of makes sense, if the one making it isn't sure how the timezones would work out.
A bigger problem seems to be: how did Mat ever manage to sneak away from Moiraine?

missbee
01-28-2013, 10:37 AM
He got Thom to distract her ;)

Davian93
01-28-2013, 10:39 AM
He got Thom to distract her ;)


Like any good gleeman, he was teaching her how to juggle...his balls.


Also, Moiraine died in tFoH...the pale shadow of her character that returned in ToM doesnt care about such things.

Dom
01-28-2013, 11:09 AM
Putting it all together, it does seem there was some plot/timeline revision which created inconsistencies, but the fudge is reasonably believable - maybe seeing Thom and Moiraine together made Mat lonesome for Tuon and he changed his mind about Caemlyn? (well, something like that... *shrugs*)

The problem is that in TOM Mat specifically thinks to head soon for Ebou Dar, that it's time to return to Tuon before entering Ghenjei, and in the aftermath he tells Moiraine and Thom when Moiraine tells him she needs to go to Rand directly that he intends to return to Caemlyn and they should come with him, that Elayne will provide them a Gateway to Rand.

Pips wasn't with Perrin. They went on foot because because Grady sent them from the Band's camp and Mat planned to have him return him to the Band's camp. He needed no horse.

There's any number of possible solutions for Pips (including the obvious solution that Grady showed initiative and decided to bring horses), but all the believable ones have Mat learn that the shit hit the fan for the Light. It's my main problem with the whole thing, the half-assed way Brandon wrote Mat in chapter 11 without any mention that Mat was aware he's abandonning the Band at a very wrong time and they already have paid a big butcher's bill at Caemlyn, that Elayne lost the city etc. At the same time, the timing of Moiraine's arrival makes it near impossible Mat has not learned this from Grady.

It all feels like Brandon cheated to avoid on purpose showing Mat in a bad light, to minimize the effect his flight to Ebou Dar should have had on the readers, and his friends. He made Mat an imbecile who didn't even seem to realize what he's done, while the others made "Mat will be Mat" jokes when you'd expect anger and frustration - and at least disapproval from someone responsible like Perrin.. Brandon mentions in a POV that "The Band took his disappearance in the face of the LB in stride". Like hell they would. Only Olver had the sense to be angry at Mat! RJ was never so kind toward Mat. He was an expert at preserving sympathy for him in his POVs, while showing him in a very bad, fairly ambiguous light, and more and more in the late series when he had gained much maturity and even some gravitas. Mat had evolved from a very funny, rather inoffensive trickster into a much darker and ambiguous one, the kind you can't really trust because you never know if on any given day they'll be in the mood to help you or will only consider their own interests. It's what Mat's actions showed, but the character was written as an immature buffoon.

A detail, but I'm not sure either what made Brandon chose to say that dicing was no longer a good metaphor for Mat, when dreams had him dice with the DO. RJ always associated Stones (which is essentally Go) and Dicing to battles, cards were associated to the Game of Houses and Mat was never very good at it, RJ even turned it into a joke. The one sequence in which Mat tried card games because it's what the nobles play, he got all the rulers attack him.

Dom
01-28-2013, 11:14 AM
Having the gateway a bit earlier sort of makes sense, if the one making it isn't sure how the timezones would work out.

Different time zones between Tar Valon (Merrilor is straight above) and Whitebridge? Doubtful it's big enough to really matter. Grady came every day at noon anyway, it's not like he wouldn't have figured it out.

We could ask Brandon, but he'll say he doesn't have the timelines in front of him.

Davian93
01-28-2013, 11:18 AM
Different time zones between Tar Valon (Merrilor is straight above) and Whitebridge? Doubtful it's big enough to really matter. Grady came every day at noon anyway, it's not like he wouldn't have figured it out.

We could ask Brandon, but he'll say he doesn't have the timelines in front of him.

Its all part of that "Day dawning twice" bit in the prophecies.

missbee
01-28-2013, 05:39 PM
The problem is that in TOM Mat specifically thinks to head soon for Ebou Dar, that it's time to return to Tuon before entering Ghenjei, and in the aftermath he tells Moiraine and Thom when Moiraine tells him she needs to go to Rand directly that he intends to return to Caemlyn and they should come with him, that Elayne will provide them a Gateway to Rand.

Pips wasn't with Perrin. They went on foot because because Grady sent them from the Band's camp and Mat planned to have him return him to the Band's camp. He needed no horse.


The problem is that even that conversation is suspect:

Mat talks of going to Caemlyn first, even though he should know that his exit gateway is going to come from FoM - Perrin was braking camp as they said goodbye, there is a description of the bustle as they leave for ToG from the "Travelling ground outside Perrin's camp" (TOM 53), it is inconceivable that Perrin didn't bother telling Mat where he was going. In ch 57 Mat says that Elayne told him that Rand has "some sort of meeting arranged with the monarchs", and he still hasn't put two and two together?
And even if Mat is being deliberately obtuse, he has Thom sitting right next to him!

I'm not surprised Mat absconded, I've argued for it before now. I'm not that surprised we don't see Mat worrying over the plight of those left behind either. He's never worried much about others, he might jump to their rescue, but he won't worry about them. You need empathy for that. From Mat's point of view, the butcher's bill is already paid and the last thing he wants is to get trapped at FoM before he's had a chance to see Tuon. My problem is that I'm not entirely sure whether Mat's lack of worry about others is a necessary but overdone character development, or simply an oversight caused by messing with the timeline.

Dom
01-28-2013, 06:30 PM
The problem is that even that conversation is suspect:

Mat talks of going to Caemlyn first, even though he should know that his exit gateway is going to come from FoM - Perrin was braking camp as they said goodbye, there is a description of the bustle as they leave for ToG from the "Travelling ground outside Perrin's camp" (TOM 53), it is inconceivable that Perrin didn't bother telling Mat where he was going. In ch 57 Mat says that Elayne told him that Rand has "some sort of meeting arranged with the monarchs", and he still hasn't put two and two together?
And even if Mat is being deliberately obtuse, he has Thom sitting right next to him!

I'm not surprised Mat absconded, I've argued for it before now. I'm not that surprised we don't see Mat worrying over the plight of those left behind either. He's never worried much about others, he might jump to their rescue, but he won't worry about them. You need empathy for that. From Mat's point of view, the butcher's bill is already paid and the last thing he wants is to get trapped at FoM before he's had a chance to see Tuon. My problem is that I'm not entirely sure whether Mat's lack of worry about others is a necessary but overdone character development, or simply an oversight caused by messing with the timeline.

Well, this seems to in part originates from merging an RJ scene with Brandon stuff. The "I'm not going to Rand but to Caemlyn" is part of the dialogue about Moiraine's proposing to Thom, which Brandon said was by RJ.

I'm not worried or surprised either Mat skipped Merrilor. I was sure he'd skip Merrilor.

I'm not happy with chapter 11 and its lack of the usual self-justifications from Mat about his decisions and I'm annoyed with Brandon's carelessness with the various timelines, but it's nothing new. :D

WinespringBrother
01-29-2013, 09:32 AM
On the audio book, the King of Shienar is referred to as "Lord Easar" (severe demotion) - maybe it was corrected in the print version since it is my understanding the audio books are read from early revisions of the book.

ETA: Egwene/Moridin already mentioned in this thread (first post lol)

Dom
01-29-2013, 11:29 AM
Page 825: Another small heraldry error:

(Elayne) "created a weave that made a majestic banner of Andor float in the air above her, the red lion to light the night. "

The lion of Andor is rather the White Lion, and normally RJ always capitalized it when preceded by a the and meaning the emblem.

Davian93
01-29-2013, 11:34 AM
Page 825: Another small heraldry error:

(Elayne) "created a weave that made a majestic banner of Andor float in the air above her, the red lion to light the night. "

The lion of Andor is rather the White Lion, and normally RJ always capitalized it when preceded by a the and meaning the emblem.

The lion turned red when it got angry (or ate a flower) and allowed her to shoot fireballs.

...as long as she didnt get hit by a turtle shell.

Dom
01-29-2013, 11:50 AM
The lion turned red when it got angry (or ate a flower) and allowed her to shoot fireballs.

...as long as she didnt get hit by a turtle shell.

or remembered she was actually pregnant and shouldn't be able to channel until she gave birth anyway.

Elayne was probably under Compulsion, or she wasn't even Elayne but some BA woman compelled to believe she was Elayne. Rand met her in one of the DO's visions, and he noticed immediately she was now a bit of a dumb blond and not the real Elayne.

Elayne wasn't herself, and if we look deep enough we can find plenty of evidence. For e.g.: she totally forgot she was Queen of Cairhien the minute she took the field. It's always Andor, rallying Andorans, speaking to the Andorans, only the blood of Andor and Andor's finest being lost. Even when she stood at the walls of Cairhien, she addressed only her men as the Queen of Andor, flew only the banner of Andor.

She also didn't even notice her throne was the wrong colors. She forgot how many Kinswomen she actually had, and forgot to account for the Wise Ones.

Heck, she also forgot there were no bridge accross the Erinin south of Tar Valon.

The real Elayne was killed and replaced by a BA. I'm pretty sure it happened just before TOM began. Mat was damn right to be suspicious of the fact she wasn't answering his letter, but then I suspect Mat also got "replaced", by Valan Luca compelled to believe he was Mat. Only Luca had the acting talent to deliver such a convincing performance as Mat. Brandon fooled us all it was the real Mat, though to be fair there were a few subtle clues he was a bit off. The real Mat went strength to Ghenjei as Valan Luca in disguise lead the Band on a merry chase through Murandy and up to Andor, then he found a place to go hide. Where? I suspect he hid as King Roedran, surrounded by floozies, good wine, gambling. He hired the Band to get them back from Egwene. As soon as he married Tuon, he went back to his hiding place in Lugard. Again the clues are all there: Roedran has read books he shouldn't have, but that Mat knew. The big mystery is who Mat arranged all this with. I suspect Semirhage. He made a deal with her to rid her off Tuon. Rand almost puzzled it out when Roed-Mat showed up to tease him and pull his leg at Merrilor. Classic Mat.

missbee
01-29-2013, 12:39 PM
Ahh, but Dom, you forget to mention that this compelled BA in disguise also had superpowers!

I give you the proof:

From Egwene's PoV in ch 31, Galad's PoV in ch 32 and Elayne's PoV in ch 26, we can deduce that Elayne, in the 2 hours before sunset, manages to : ride out to survey the battle, ride to the command tent, mediate an argument, figure out Bashere is under compulsion, finish off one horde of trollocs, get rescued by Androl's geothermal extravaganza , re-order the troops, heal wounded with the help of Mayenne, re-supply the dragons (and archers?), deal with the second (much bigger) horde of trollocs, send help to the Borderlanders, attend a meeting with Mat and Egwene and get back in time to explain the new battle plan to her commanders - impressive, no?

And, she is not alone - Perrin has a fight that lasts 10 days (ch 33 and 34, Perrin vs Slayer)
Admittedly, he is in TAR at the time - but not anywhere near SG, and he does lose consciousness at one point - before regaining it enough to shift to RW.

Rand, on the other hand, is now able to control the sun and moon (or something). So, depending on which character you believe -
there are one or two separate eclipses
occurring two, several or 10 days after the Sharan attack.
and the time passing between the Sharan attack and the Last Battle is either 11, 13ish or 20 days.
(The events between the eclipse and the last battle are heavily cross-referenced, with too many contradictions to detail here, see the timeline linked earlier)


On a lighter note -

Orbit ch. 24 p 441. (Elayne's speech to troops before Cairhien battle)
Starting about half way down the page, a few paragraphs of the speech have unnecessary opening quotation marks (but no closing ones) and IIRC, there is one set that should be there but is also missing the closing mark.

Jek5
01-29-2013, 01:52 PM
On a lighter note -

Orbit ch. 24 p 441. (Elayne's speech to troops before Cairhien battle)
Starting about half way down the page, a few paragraphs of the speech have unnecessary opening quotation marks (but no closing ones) and IIRC, there is one set that should be there but is also missing the closing mark.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, this sounds correct. According to most style guides, quotations that are longer than a paragraph should have each paragraph open with a quotation mark, but only the final paragraph should close with one.

Dom
01-29-2013, 01:55 PM
Ahh, but Dom, you forget to mention that this compelled BA in disguise also had superpowers!

It's either that or the Shadow had.... Elayne clones!

Whatever Brandon's method to keep track of the timeline was, it wasn't working very well.

He could easily have fixed that if he noted it down in a file whenever he had put time markers somewhere, which would have made it easy to find and update them at need.

The thing was, we know Harriet shuffled his scenes around a lot during editing/rewrites. She did that with RJ (together) for previous books, but obviously he had a better method of keeping track of his time markers in order to update them to work with the final scenes order. Maybe he included them in scenes only when Harriet and him were done putting the scenes in their final order. I don't know how, but he used time markers far more massively than Brandon did, often wrote in disorder, used many more ellipses and yethe ended up with very few timeline mistakes.

Brandon seemed to say he relied mostly on Maria keeping track of everything through the versions, and Bob Klutz in beta reading. The various timeline errors in the three books (and some are more just hellishly confusing things rather than actual errors) are probably the markers she has missed.


I think it's probably how the various inconsistencies came about. When Brandon wrote with one timeline in mind, which got altered by shuffling stuff around but some the markers were missed.

I think it's probably how we end up missing some stuff in some scenes. Scenes were moved around, and stuff should ideally have been added, and no doubt some of that was added, but a few instances were missed. Perhaps there was a scene in which Mat mentioned he had stopped having visions about Perrin, for instance, and that scene got edited out and moving the mention to another scene slipped through the cracks during editing/revisions. Probably not in this specific case, as I found a scene in the RW at the end when Perrin has a vision of Mat, and he doesn't mention the swirls had not been there in TAR or anything, nor do Mat mentions the visions of Perrin are back during his fairly long stay in Mayene. So it's not a TAR thing, it's simply an error that Mat thinks of Perrin and has no color swirls even when Perrin was in Mayene. He should have known Perrin was OK or "in a strange place he could not identify" or at least that he had been rescued anyway.

missbee
01-29-2013, 02:29 PM
Unless I'm misunderstanding, this sounds correct. According to most style guides, quotations that are longer than a paragraph should have each paragraph open with a quotation mark, but only the final paragraph should close with one.

Oh, ok then. :)


@ Dom
I think you're spot on there.

Cor Shan
01-29-2013, 06:14 PM
So I'm sure that a) either I missed something or b)you all have torn it apart, but isn't the second best part (after being able to draw more of the power) of having an angreal or sa'angreal the limiter which prevents you from burning yourself out?

So how the hell did the "Flame" scene make any sense?

missbee
01-29-2013, 06:25 PM
You're thinking of Vora's sa'ngreal?
It doesn't have a limiter. Can't remember where we learn that exactly but, IIRC, it is mentioned in that LB scene.

Cor Shan
01-29-2013, 06:29 PM
You're thinking of Vora's sa'ngreal?
It doesn't have a limiter. Can't remember where we learn that exactly but, IIRC, it is mentioned in that LB scene.

... You know what, for a society that seems pretty utopian, they lack very stringent WCB standards.

ETA: I clearly missed that. Thanks.

Weird Harold
01-31-2013, 08:39 AM
Speaking of which, as Elayne had heard Egwene's story regarding Rand's parentage, how the hell would she not put it together. I'm taking a leap of faith here but I'd imagine that the Daughter-Heir would be intimately familiar with Tigraine's story...that plus the resemblance should have been a no brainer...even for Elayne.

Elayne is a year younger than Rand; When would she have ever seen Tigraine to know there was a resemblance? I don't think I've seen any mention of a portrait gallery in Caemlyn.

David Selig
01-31-2013, 08:49 AM
Elayne is a year younger than Rand; When would she have ever seen Tigraine to know there was a resemblance? I don't think I've seen any mention of a portrait gallery in Caemlyn.

Here's the quote:

TDR, Ch.39

Elayne nodded. “I think so. I do not know much of the Prophecies of the Dragon, but I have heard a few lines. One I remember is, ‘On the slopes of Dragonmount shall he be born, born of a maiden wedded to no man.’ Egwene, Rand does look like an Aiel. Well, he looks like the pictures I have seen of Tigraine, too, but she vanished before he was born, and I hardly think she could have been his mother anyway. I think Rand’s mother was a Maiden of the Spear.”

As for a portrait gallery in Caemlyn, the former queens are depicted in the Grand Hall of the palace:

TPOD, Ch. 28

White columns twenty paces high marched down the sides of the Grand Hall. The throne room was empty, still. That would not last long. Clear afternoon light through the glassed casements in tall windows along the walls mingled with the colored light through the great windows set in the ceiling, where the White Lion of Andor alternated with scenes of Andoran victories and the faces of the land’s earliest queens, beginning with Ishara herself, as dark as any of the Atha’an Miere, as full of authority as any Aes Sedai. No ruler of Andor could forget herself with the predecessors who had forged this nation staring down at her.

Weird Harold
01-31-2013, 09:18 AM
Here's the quote:

Thanks.

As for a portrait gallery in Caemlyn, the former queens are depicted in the Grand Hall of the palace:

But Tigraine was never Queen and thus not included in the Stained Glass windows -- which aren't quite the same thing as a portrait gallery.

Dom
01-31-2013, 09:35 AM
Thanks.



But Tigraine was never Queen and thus not included in the Stained Glass windows -- which aren't quite the same thing as a portrait gallery.

No, but she's seen other portraits. House Mantear was a close ally of House Trakand, surely Elayne has visited their domains many times (or at least their Caemlyn "palaces"), and seen portraits of Tigraine there, or elsewhere. There are no doubt many portraits of Elayne around too. A daughter-heir is an important figure. We've not seen or heard much of visual arts, but by the number of paintings we heard about, it's obvious there's a lot of painters around serving the nobility.