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kcf
01-08-2013, 10:34 AM
(NOTE FROM TAMYRLIN: This thread comes from a private forum I made available a few days before the release to those I knew had read the book. There are no spoiler tags, and a discussion of the entirety of A Memory of Light may follow. So expect full spoilers.)

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I favor the idea of Nakomi as a hero of the horn - I believe the discussion with Avi occured in TAR. And I don't think that it was Bair or Sorilea that helped Rand in the epilogue - first, it makes no sense to not name them and second it makes little sense that they would help him in that way - basically, switching identities and surviving. Bair may be understandble if it was something she new from dreams/etc., but Sorilea doesn't really fit.

It was confirmed that the epilogue was all RJ. Has it been confirmed that the meal with Nakomi and visit to the ter'angreal in Rhuidien was RJ as well? I've always thought so. The whole bit with Nakomi is just too subtle to be Sanderson IMO.

It seems to me that she is hero of the horn, and as others have speculated, it's possible/likely that she was a hero born/re-born in the Aiel world and possibly a Jenn Aiel or even one of the AS with the Jenn (less likely in mind).

I think this is goes along with the idea that heros may not be exactly what they think they are - a major idea throughout the series. For example, we now have hero wolves (seperate note - I'm unsure if I'm disappointed or happy that Hopper didn't turn up as a hero wolf). I think Nakomi is something of an 'intellectual' hero, or at least one not tied to battle and conflict. A WO hero, perhaps a counselor, or AOL-type Aiel hero. A hero of peace.

Terez
01-08-2013, 10:46 AM
It was confirmed that the epilogue was all RJ.
Actually, it hasn't been. We know for sure that Brandon wrote some scenes in the epilogue; it was mostly RJ material but Brandon had to modify all of it which included adding extra scenes.

Has it been confirmed that the meal with Nakomi and visit to the ter'angreal in Rhuidien was RJ as well?
It's pretty certain that it wasn't. he might have put it in the notes, but we don't have any real reason to believe that he did.

I've always thought so. The whole bit with Nakomi is just too subtle to be Sanderson IMO.
It's too subtle for RJ, IMO. As in, I don't think RJ would write something so completely pointless.

kcf
01-08-2013, 10:49 AM
Actually, it hasn't been. We know for sure that Brandon wrote some scenes in the epilogue; it was mostly RJ material but Brandon had to modify all of it which included adding extra scenes.


Do we know exactly what was said at last night's Q&A? Because the 'tweet' round-up said that the epilogue was all RJ - which I take to mean that any changes were editorial and not substantive.

Davian93
01-08-2013, 10:57 AM
The epilogue read like it was RJ's voice instead of Brandon's...FWIW.

Terez
01-08-2013, 10:59 AM
Yeah, I saw the tweet, and corrected it on Facebook. Hopefully there will be a video so we can see exactly what he said, but what I said above comes direct from the Team and Brandon's tweets on the subject. We have to directly ask Brandon about this on the tour, though—it's nothing we can put in the database yet—but for example we know he added the Cadsuane scene, and it was implied that other scenes were added.

sleepinghour
01-08-2013, 11:32 AM
Do we know exactly what was said at last night's Q&A?

All I could find was Tower Guard's tweets (https://twitter.com/MidnightRelease) and some photos of the pamplet. (http://imgur.com/a/GPb9h#0)

Dom
01-08-2013, 11:45 AM
Weirdly enough, I kind of gave up on Nakomi.

Stuff like this smacks of failure to me. There's no real purpose to something like that unless you leave the readers enough clues to puzzle it out.

I'm undecided whether this came from RJ or Brandon. I think Brandon wrote the scene, but whether it came from the notes or not...

Bair recognized the name as an "ancient one", clearly. She didn't tell Aviendha what she knew about that name, evaded the question by telling her she knew no one (alive) of that name.

The Elan Morin scene suggested it was Lanfear who still had an interest in Aviendha, but it seems that was just Moridin trying to manipulate Rand again. Cyndane had rather returned to putting Rand in a situation only she could save him from (ie: her orders to Slayer)... if she decided to. Her confrontation with LTT shattered her last illusions, and she moved on to her "last plan" where she'd hold Shai'tan by the balls and she was for real his Last Chance.

Tel'aran'rhiod for the encounter with Nakomi doesn't work for me. A dreamshard, however... that might work.

This could suggest Nakomi was Moridin himself. Unlike Lanfear he probably has enough intimate knowledge of the Aiel to pull it off. But it's weak.. Nakomi truly acted as a guide to Aviendha. It's her conversation with Nakomi who inspired her for her notion of asking Rand for a boon. It prepared her for the fact the Aiel needed to change.

The Aiel prophecies have not been fulfilled. Not really. It's post series stuff. Rand alluded to it when he thought that Aviendha singing would be right. Himself has remembered the Voice, and used this power to sing to the Land. The whole Rhuidean arc makes little sense unless at some point in the future the Aiel return to the Way, to "their old places". Being peacemakers in between has to be a transition.

I highly suspect RJ changed how much resolution he meant to bring to that arc because of the Seanchan trilogy. The whole matter that the Tuatha'an are now with them, and the Aiel have to be peacekeepers betweeen the nations and the Seanchan provinces smack of "unfinished stuff I'm better wait for 5-10 years after TG to give as "easter egg". It's there were would have gotten the clues about Cadsuane's rule as Amyrlin and what she had set in motion, and how the situation with damane evolved during that extra decade. My bet is that we'll get some of that in the Encyclopedia instead).

So I don't know what to make of Nakomi. Thematically, it would make most sense to associate her with the efforts of the Rhuidean AS/Jenn to save the Aiel, and save their past for the time they could return to what they once were.

It's just damn hard to rationalize how Nakomi could have "returned" if she was a Jenn, a proto-WO, and somehow part of the programming, or a virtual reality set up with a ter'angreal.

That leaves the possibility she was an "envoy of the Creator", or else some half-ass badly justified ploy of Moridin or Lanfear.

It wasn't cool no more hint came. It's one of those frustrating kind of red herrings, and I highly suspect it's Brandon's creation, a mystery of his own that would endure and become part of the series's mythos (his own Asmodean, if you wish). in Q&A he seemed way too much to enjoy himself about Nakomi.
She comes straight from American First Nations' mythology. She's a mother-goddess/moon goddess. She is the one who taught shamans about Dreaming, who gave the tribes "dreamcatchers". It's very typical for a woman like Aviendha to have a "mystical experience" on her way to a trial/threshold like Rhuidean... just not typical at all for a character in WOT to have such a literal encounter with a creature like this. It's like myths became real all of a sudden, and a real god or its messenger walked the earth for real. Don't put it past Brandon to have added this, he's very knowledgeable about myths and religions, and he's got a fascination for those things.

Terez
01-08-2013, 09:06 PM
It wasn't cool no more hint came. It's one of those frustrating kind of red herrings, and I highly suspect it's Brandon's creation, a mystery of his own that would endure and become part of the series's mythos (his own Asmodean, if you wish).
More like his Hoid.

Dom
01-08-2013, 09:43 PM
More like his Hoid.

:D Should we call her Nakhoidmi from now on?

Actually, I'd be happy just to know if she's Brandon's or not.

I'm leaning toward this mostly because the way of life of the Aiel owes a lot to Amerindians etc. but 90% of their culture/mythology (as well as their coloring) is Celtic (mostly, not exclusively "Irish"). And now all of a sudden Aviendha crosses path with someone named after a native people's Moon Goddess, when there was no lack of celtic equivalents to name such a character after. Let's say it's suspicious.

Tamyrlin
01-08-2013, 11:15 PM
I was disappointed with the Aviendha/Aiel arc, especially after the Nakomi/Rhuidean moment in ToM. It seemed to me like we would finally have the Aiel Wise Ones/DreamWalking/Aviendha come full circle from TDR, TSR, TFoH. In that light I could have accepted Nakomi as either Wise One Dreamwalking or Jenn Aiel/Hero breaking precepts as the culmination of the Aiel Remnant, where they would find their own purpose in what was to come.

That didn't happen.

Still, I'm hopeful that we will find meaning in Nakomi as we go back looking for other clues.

Tedman
01-09-2013, 01:07 AM
I found it fascinating with some of these dilemmas. For instance Asmo I had no idea beyond Slayer\Forsaken who killed him. I never really got some of the weirder theories but it couldn't have been anyone else.


When someone makes a post in the guide of Sherlock Holmes about Nakomi, Ill listen to it and probably believe that, but until then it seemed sort of pointless to me.

fionwe1987
01-09-2013, 02:57 AM
Nakomi as Verin still has an attraction, for me. The impossibilities are many, but something about her in TOM reeked of Verin.

It seems to me that in terms of Prophesy and designated roles, the men have it all in the series. Part of that has to do with the theme of balance: women have had 3000 years to put their stamp on the world. The Pattern balances that by raising men high enough that their own deeds can set the tone for the next age, brining balance again.

For all that, one has to wonder if the Pattern didn't give birth to other souls than Rand, Mat and Perrin who would serve equally big functions, but would have less to herald them, less to make them seem special. Nynaeve, Egwene, Moiraine, Verin... they all seem to fit this mold. So Verin as a Hero, disguised as an Aiel, could make sense, I guess. Its just sad we have no clues.

Terez
01-09-2013, 05:35 AM
Nakomi as Verin still has an attraction, for me. The impossibilities are many, but something about her in TOM reeked of Verin.
To me too, obviously. But her appearance to Aviendha was well before Rand's epiphany so the timelines don't seem to match up for that. That's why I argued it was Verin in the first place; she could have appeared to Aviendha before she died. Yes, it makes more sense if she'd already died—if she was still alive she wouldn't know anything about her past lives—but the suggestion that Verin was a hero didn't go over well with fans in general, and then there was the timeline. To me she's the only option that's interesting, but there aren't enough clues to give us anything close to a definitive answer, which makes it inherently uninteresting to me. If Brandon answers it on the tour, then yay, but somehow I doubt it, and either way I would have preferred something more tangible in the book(s).

Davian93
01-09-2013, 07:25 AM
More like his Hoid.

Hey now, I said that over at DM a couple days ago. A crossdressing Hoid in Aiel garb.

Dom
01-09-2013, 08:40 AM
I was disappointed with the Aviendha/Aiel arc, especially after the Nakomi/Rhuidean moment in ToM. It seemed to me like we would finally have the Aiel Wise Ones/DreamWalking/Aviendha come full circle from TDR, TSR, TFoH. In that light I could have accepted Nakomi as either Wise One Dreamwalking or Jenn Aiel/Hero breaking precepts as the culmination of the Aiel Remnant, where they would find their own purpose in what was to come.

That didn't happen.

I feel much the same way. Some aspects of the Aiel story arc got seriously diluted, or perhaps "trivialized" would be a better word. They had one of the deeper, more complex arcs of all the groups in the series, I imagine it wasn't easy to step in RJ's shoes with them.

Tamyrlin
01-10-2013, 03:25 PM
About Nakomi:

I was re-reading her section in ToM. Now, there are multiple references there which point to her being in TAR: there are many fresh coals in the fire, it becomes warmer, and of course, Nakomi more or less disappears at the end. Further, the food Aviendha tastes is particularly delicious, which is weird, since Rand wasn't around, and hadn't had his epiphany yet.

So, on the one hand, Nakomi has a Rand-like effect on food. On the other hand, we assumed she was met in TAR... but what if she was doing what Rand was? Manipulating reality in the way a Dreamer would? Tied together with Brandon's quote that Nakomi comes from notes on Rand, I think the case becomes stronger for her to be some kind of Creator avatar. At the very least, she may be some kind of corrective mechanism of the Pattern, who, unlike ta'veren, gently nudges things based on what she knows of the future.

I'm still very attached to her being Verin. And if we accept Nakomi as a kind of Pattern corrector, this fits Verin even better. Verin did exactly that. A nudge here, a nudge there, always helping people, but doing so by giving them choice, and knowledge. Even when she speaks of her past and how she joined the Black, she talks of choice.


Someone should ask Brandon something along these lines to help us speculate further: have we met Nakomi prior to ToM? Or are there hints to Nakomi's presence prior to ToM? Something along those lines, not too definitive, while still letting us know if she was around prior to the first time we meet her and if he/Jordan hinted at such.

I recommend moving the rest of your post to a new thread as it will get lost in this discussion. Also, we should copy some of our Nakomi discussion over to the Nakomi thread.

Davian93
01-10-2013, 03:30 PM
Someone should ask Brandon something along these lines to help us speculate further: have we met Nakomi prior to ToM? Or are there hints to Nakomi's presence prior to ToM? Something along those lines, not too definitive, while still letting us know if she was around prior to the first time we meet her and if he/Jordan hinted at such.

I recommend moving the rest of your post to a new thread as it will get lost in this discussion. Also, we should copy some of our Nakomi discussion over to the Nakomi thread.


For what its worth, the Hoidish explanation sucks (as a plotline that is)

Tamyrlin
01-10-2013, 03:48 PM
For what its worth, the Hoidish explanation sucks (as a plotline that is)

A "Hoid" isn't a new concept, and each author tends to tweak it's reason for being for their own purposes. For example, I quite enjoy Zifnab/Fizban from Weis/Hickman. Assuming the latest about this is correct, that Nakomi is from Jordan's notes, it wouldn't surprise me. Jordan set up the system quite well to contain such a type or types of corrective mechanisms, but hid it well from us until it is more overtly revealed. Plus, it doesn't seem that Nakomi actually did much (as Nakomi), we just had a chance to witness this one or two nudges. We didn't ever ask if there were other "corrective" mechanisms beyond Heroes and PLEs. At least as far as I recall.

But as with anything Jordan does, he tweaked and mixed the idea, and made it work within his own metaphysics. Perhaps it's a part of the breaking of the Pattern, something that cannot pass through normally into the Real World, until further walls are broken down. With a few more questions about Nakomi, we could open up larger fertile ground for speculation. But in essence I think we have covered clear possibilities.

Dom
01-10-2013, 03:52 PM
A "Hoid" isn't a new concept, and each author tends to tweak it's reason for being for their own purposes. For example, I quite enjoy Zifnab/Fizban from Weis/Hickman. Assuming the latest about this is correct, that Nakomi is from Jordan's notes, it wouldn't surprise me. Jordan set up the system quite well to contain such a type or types of corrective mechanisms, but hid it well from us until it is more overtly revealed. Plus, it doesn't seem that Nakomi actually did much (as Nakomi), we just had a chance to witness this one or two nudges. We didn't ever ask if there were other "corrective" mechanisms beyond Heroes and PLEs. At least as far as I recall.

But as with anything Jordan does, he tweaked and mixed the idea, and made it work within his own metaphysics. Perhaps it's a part of the breaking of the Pattern, something that cannot pass through normally into the Real World, until further walls are broken down. With a few more questions about Nakomi, we could open up larger fertile ground for speculation. But in essence I think we have covered clear possibilities.

+1.

We know the Wheel is capable of "special miracles" too. It's how RJ explained the TGH vision in the sky.

It's perfectly possible there's a hidden "special nudger" corrective mechanism the Wheel sent out, and that's Nakomi.

In Greeek myth, she would be the Moira, which inspired a lot Moiraine's character.

Maybe RJ had his three Moira in Moiraine, Verin and Cadsuane for real, and Moiraine as the one who sets on a path, Verin is the "weaver", and Cadsuane is the one who decides when to cut the thread (so letting Rand "die" and go would be an allusion to that) and the Weaver, the middle one among the three Fates, returned in a special fashion in the guise of Nakomi, the Amerindian goddess similar to the Greek Moira.

The Three Fairy Godmothers overlooking the child in a craddle of the fairy tales are another incarnation, derived straight from the Fates.... and this fits Rand and Moiraine/Cadsuane/Verin really well... Verin suspected, Cadsuane came to late, Moiraine is the one who found Rand... then Verin protected him in turn, and nudged him, and finally Cadsuane sent him. At the end, two of them were still with him in the real world. Where was the third? She had become Nakomi.

This from an old essay I wrote (or rather.. it's one of the lengthy footnotes):

The Aelfinn & Eelfinn have strong links with both Knowledge and Destiny themes. They and their realms are inspired largely by races of the underworld and otherworld (not to be confused with hell and other lands of the dead) from many eras and cultures – often related to one another - like the Welsh elfin and fairy races, the Irish sidhe (shee), the old Celtic gods like the Tuatha dé Danaan, the French fées and the Arabic Jinns – among many others. Their realms are often perilous to humans but also full of secrets, hidden knowledge, magic and treasures, awaiting the daring hero or the incautious adventurer. “The fairies are people who transform, who can in an instant grant or refuse the most ambitious desires” [DS]. Christianity has often turned these old legendary creatures into mischievous demons, such as the incubus and succubus who haunted dreams to seduce humans and which are linked to Lanfear (see Lanfear essay) and Moghedien. The fairy tales derive in part from older myths, such as the three Greek goddesses of destiny, who spin and weave the threads of men’s lives – and cut them when time comes. It’s quite interesting that their name, the Moirai, is almost certainly an origin for the name Moiraine – currently presumed a prisoner in the realms of the Aelfinn & Eelfinn – as it is the source of Moghedien's original surname Moiral; she is another parallel of the Moirae. The Latinized Moirai, the Parcae, bestow gifts on newborn children. Other related goddesses include Athena, Freyja and the Norns (addition: Nakomi could simply be added to this list). A link to Moghedien is also found via the spiders (addition: Nakomi also means Spider/Weaver) that are often associated to the weaving myths, for instance with Athena and Arachne. All these myths and legends converge in the fairytales like Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty, with their fairy-godmothers. (The fairytale author Charles Perrault was a leading intellectual who wrote Parallels between the Ancients and the Moderns, a forerunner for the Age of Enlightenment in Europe.) It might be an uncanny coincidence, but the Fairy-godmother is translated from Perrault’s Fée-Marraine (thus, as Cairhienin have French influence, Moiraine could be a mix of Moirai and Marraine). The association to Moiraine is further suggested by the popularity of the Blue Fairy. It is indeed amusing to imagine Moiraine, Verin, Cadsuane and the sworn Aes Sedai as Rand’s fairy-godmothers, Moridin/Moghedien/Lanfear as evil witches/hags/godmothers and even the Black Ajah as the evil step-sisters. The confusion and convergence of many of the mythical and legendary motifs for the Aelfinn and Eelfinn, Moiraine, the Aes Sedai and even Lanfear is in itself quite notable. The theme of weaving, spinning and webs is unsurprisingly well developed in The Wheel of Time, and the associations to weavers from myth, legends and fairytales are plentiful. [DS, MF, CP, DH]

Tamyrlin
01-10-2013, 04:17 PM
+1.

We know the Wheel is capable of "special miracles" too. It's how RJ explained the TGH vision in the sky.



We call those "special miracles" PLEs, or Pattern Level Events, around here. I remember using GOI (Gap of Infinity) when asking Jordan a question, also Learner and Sparker, and having him give us this look like, "huh? what's that?" :)

Tamyrlin
01-10-2013, 05:17 PM
+1.

In Greeek myth, she would be the Moira, which inspired a lot Moiraine's character.

Maybe RJ had his three Moira in Moiraine, Verin and Cadsuane for real, and Moiraine as the one who sets on a path, Verin is the "weaver", and Cadsuane is the one who decides when to cut the thread (so letting Rand "die" and go would be an allusion to that) and the Weaver, the middle one among the three Fates, returned in a special fashion in the guise of Nakomi, the Amerindian goddess similar to the Greek Moira.

The Three Fairy Godmothers overlooking the child in a craddle of the fairy tales are another incarnation, derived straight from the Fates.... and this fits Rand and Moiraine/Cadsuane/Verin really well... Verin suspected, Cadsuane came to late, Moiraine is the one who found Rand... then Verin protected him in turn, and nudged him, and finally Cadsuane sent him. At the end, two of them were still with him in the real world. Where was the third? She had become Nakomi.


Love this idea.

Though, if Verin and Nakomi are related in some way:

1. Verin hides Nakomi
2. Nakomi hides as Verin (and others perhaps), and in reality doesn't die.
3. The soul of Verin is a Hero, and Nakomi is her Hero personality

I tend to prefer #3, then #2, then #1.

Dom
01-10-2013, 05:45 PM
Love this idea.

Though, if Verin and Nakomi are related in some way:

1. Verin hides Nakomi
2. Nakomi hides as Verin (and others perhaps), and in reality doesn't die.
3. The soul of Verin is a Hero, and Nakomi is her Hero personality

I tend to prefer #3, then #2, then #1.

And I really should move this discussion out to the Nakomi thread.


By all means, soon it'll be lost with the more general early spoiler threads.

I prefer #3 too.

Boatgoat
01-10-2013, 07:37 PM
Did nobody notice Nakomi (my guess) at the end of the book?

"Rand leaves the cave he sees a woman in aiel garb and here's the excerpt "He could . . . see, just faintly. A figure kneeling down beside him. “Yes” a woman whispered. He did not recognize the voice. “Yes, that’s good. That is what you need to do.” He blinked, his vision fuzzy. Was that Aiel clothing? An old woman, with gray hair? Her form retreated, and Rand reached toward her, not wanting to be alone. Wanting to explain himself. “I see the answer now,” he whispered. “I asked the Aelfinn the wrong question. To choose is our fate. If you have no choice, then you aren’t a man at all. You’re a puppet . . .” Shouting. Rand felt heavy. He plunged into unconsciousness.[spoiler]"

Tamyrlin
01-10-2013, 07:39 PM
Dom

What's Nakomi in this interpretation? She'd be the other half of the Creator, the female half. Because unlike Shai'tan, the Creator has two halves.. saidar and saidin, male and female. Mother and Gardener. She may have been around as Nakomi since the AOL, immortal, with the same powers Rand at the end Rand has. And she didn't interfere... it was the male half's turn to make the Choice. She's been the Voice who spoke to Rand as he entered the Pit of Doom, and she waited for him as he came out to witness what he Chose. All she did was to remind Rand it was about making a Choice, which is also what she guided Aviendha to. Now Rand has become a male Nakomi, Nakomi can let herself "die", forget what she is, to be born as a human once more.

It's an interpretation, not necessarily the one I believe in, though I find it appealing to interpret things this way.


Dom

"One with the Land" indeed. In this interpretation a lot of Creation is Rand - he is its Spirit, its Soul. Or half actually, if we go with the Saidar/Saidin division and make Nakomi the female half. We even pretty much know how the great lines of divisions would work.... Rand is the dominant aspects of Fire and Earth - the Sun and the Land, Nakomi would be the dominant aspects of Water and Air. Spirit is divided equally between them - their Souls, and each of them of course have minor aspects in the opposite flows.

It's appealing, though I'm not convinced it's right.


Dom

I don't know what to make of Nakomi. Without Brandon confirming or shooting down the notion it was her and not Bair or Sorilea telling Rand the final "yes, it's what you have to do", we're on very, very fragile grounds. It's be cool to get those answers but I think we'll never get them. It would be the end of our sort of theorizing about the metaphysics, and I really get the impression it wasn't RJ's intention to put an end to that with the series' ending, and Harriet and Brandon intend to stick to that. Well... Harriet will make Brandon stick to that, because "Brandon the fan" really gave me the impression he wouldn't mind at all getting in those kinds of discussions with fans, even though Brandon the writer understands well why RJ preferred not to go there.

Hopefully, Maria and Harriet will include all kind of clever clues in the relevant entries of the Enyclopedia to keep us going. New hints about Nakomi and such.


Dom

Brandon apparently said something interesting about Nakomi.

If it's reported right, she apparently come from "deep in RJ's Rand notes"..

Interesting in the light of today's discussion.

I forgot to add she also works as a benevolent counterpart to Moghedien, as according to some scholars, the name means "The Spider" - in the sense of a weaver. She's associated with the "dream weavers" type of mythical creatures/gods. She makes a good "incarnation" for the Wheel of Time itself.

That would make her "yes, it's what you have to do" at the end the Light's mirror to Moghedien ripping out Birgitte, and would reinforce the parallels between Birgitte's "dead yet alive state" in the world and Rand's at the end of the series

Tamyrlin
01-10-2013, 07:46 PM
Did nobody notice Nakomi (my guess) at the end of the book?

"Rand leaves the cave he sees a woman in aiel garb and here's the excerpt "He could . . . see, just faintly. A figure kneeling down beside him. “Yes” a woman whispered. He did not recognize the voice. “Yes, that’s good. That is what you need to do.” He blinked, his vision fuzzy. Was that Aiel clothing? An old woman, with gray hair? Her form retreated, and Rand reached toward her, not wanting to be alone. Wanting to explain himself. “I see the answer now,” he whispered. “I asked the Aelfinn the wrong question. To choose is our fate. If you have no choice, then you aren’t a man at all. You’re a puppet . . .” Shouting. Rand felt heavy. He plunged into unconsciousness.[spoiler]"

That's the second instance where it seems there is a Nakomi interaction. We haven't really tried to parse exactly what that meant. I think one of the ideas was the "that is what you need to do" referred potentially to transmigration, or to disguising the body.

I wonder if Nakomi was speaking to someone else, Alivia perhaps.

Dom
01-10-2013, 08:13 PM
I wonder if Nakomi was speaking to someone else, Alivia perhaps.

I had not considered this possibility she wasn't talking to Rand. It's plausible, though she seems to be looking at Rand, backing off when he wants to touch her.

My first hunch as I read was that it had to be Nakomi. Then Terez convinced me it was a known WO - Sorilea didn't work for me, but Bair who had the Dream maybe, but re reading this I'm convinced again it has to be Nakomi. The voice, the hesitation whether she's Aiel.. it's all written as a huge clue it's a "Wise One" Rand doesn't know.. and she is involved as he comes out. The whole "reaching for her because he didn't want to be alone" is also suggestive that Rand is somehow attracted to her - that he might find out what/who she is if they came in contact, maybe.

My first instinct was right: it's clearly written as a classic "supernatural contact" in myth. I think it's what Brandon, who's well-versed in mythology, aimed to mimic/evoke with this. Nakomi's TOM scene was also all written in that tone/vein..something mythological, supernatural, mysterious.

Tamyrlin
01-10-2013, 09:09 PM
I had not considered this possibility she wasn't talking to Rand. It's plausible, though she seems to be looking at Rand, backing off when he wants to touch her.

My first hunch as I read was that it had to be Nakomi. Then Terez convinced me it was a known WO - Sorilea didn't work for me, but Bair who had the Dream maybe, but re reading this I'm convinced again it has to be Nakomi. The voice, the hesitation whether she's Aiel.. it's all written as a huge clue it's a "Wise One" Rand doesn't know.. and she is involved as he comes out. The whole "reaching for her because he didn't want to be alone" is also suggestive that Rand is somehow attracted to her - that he might find out what/who she is if they came in contact, maybe.

My first instinct was right: it's clearly written as a classic "supernatural contact" in myth. I think it's what Brandon, who's well-versed in mythology, aimed to mimic/evoke with this. Nakomi's TOM scene was also all written in that tone/vein..something mythological, supernatural, mysterious.

It's Rand seeming delusion that makes the idea that she is talking to him an odd one. Why those words? He seems more a patient in that moment being worked on, while he lay dying, but this be my wishful thinking. Though maybe she is saying that "dying" is what he needs to do?

Not recognizing her voice seems the biggest clue that it wasn't one of the Aiel Wise Ones he knew.

Terez
01-10-2013, 11:00 PM
I just wanted to believe that because I've hated Nakomi ever since Brandon started hinting she wasn't Verin.

Heiko
01-11-2013, 12:53 AM
I just wanted to believe that because I've hated Nakomi ever since Brandon started hinting she wasn't Verin.

Looks like we'll have to accept that we won't like where this Nakomi thing is going.

ShadowbaneX
01-11-2013, 01:30 AM
Love this idea.

Though, if Verin and Nakomi are related in some way:

1. Verin hides Nakomi
2. Nakomi hides as Verin (and others perhaps), and in reality doesn't die.
3. The soul of Verin is a Hero, and Nakomi is her Hero personality

I tend to prefer #3, then #2, then #1.

Number #3 doesn't hold water as we know that a Hero takes on the form of their most recent life. If Verin were a Hero in T'A'R she'd be Verin.

Minor tangent: how did Alivia know to leave Laman's sword, his clothes & a bag full of coins? Does she share in the secret? Could there be some connection?

Other tangent: the tunnel to the Bore closed after Moiraine and Nynaeve fled...which tunnel did Rand come from? T'A'R?

Also, the Looney wants to say that Nakomi is Tigraine.

Davian93
01-11-2013, 07:00 AM
Rand's POV here is completely suspect because he's out of it and near-death. Its much the same as that Senator who said he saw/heard angels when he was near death a few months ago...angels with NY accents.

That leaves a ton of wiggle room to interpret it in any way you want.

Dom
01-11-2013, 08:42 AM
That leaves a ton of wiggle room to interpret it in any way you want.

Which is probably the intent. Characters à la Nakomi/Bombadil (and even to an extent the Istari) always are very risky. Some readers take them in stride easily and even like those, others hate them viscerally. It's common writers prefer to leave such things ambiguous on purpose to let the readers decide themselves what works for them.

We've seen quite a few huge controversies arise when creators made it explicit and with no "way out" one way or another... Herbert/Anderson showing Frank Herbert's Gardeners as AI is an example, the final season of Lost, Lucas's midichlorians, Starbuck in BG etc.

Readers like me (or Tam, it seems) find Nakomi more fascinating than annoying, but I understand perfectly why Terez hates the whole idea, or what Brandon did with it, viscerally.

We're probably heading for such a controversy in the WOT fanbase that might become worse if Brandon/Harriet decide to give us what's in RJ's notes about Nakomi.

kabkaba
01-11-2013, 08:42 AM
I don't know if this has been floated, but how about Nakomi being Tigraine returned from/waiting in TAR. She felt quite motherly to Rand.

Dom
01-11-2013, 08:46 AM
She felt quite motherly to Rand.


How could she? She didn't survive birthing.

Terez
01-11-2013, 08:47 AM
Number #3 doesn't hold water as we know that a Hero takes on the form of their most recent life.
We don't know that, actually. We've just always assumed it. And we know that technically they can take on whatever form they want to; it's the nature of Tel'aran'rhiod.

Dom
01-11-2013, 09:12 AM
We don't know that, actually. We've just always assumed it. And we know that technically they can take on whatever form they want to; it's the nature of Tel'aran'rhiod.

It's especially true as obviously if Nakomi is a Hero or a corrective mechanism similar to one, she's not there the "normal way", ie: because she's reborn and in the flesh.

Verin fits but one of the things that fuzz it is that Verin is very clearly a character inspired by/modeled on myths like Nakomi. She might be her, Nakomi as a return of dead Verin, but Verin can also be a strictly human and separate version of the Nakomi concept Jordan included in the series (not to have Nakomi herself show up except at the end. If she was "deep in the notes" I suspect Jordan may not have made any final decision whether he'd ever include her or not, he just conceived her). Egwene's vs. the image of Lanfear (the stories/legends about her) is an example of this.

Another way Verin and Nakomi seem to mirror one another is that Verin is named after a demon associated to the sin of "oath breaking", whereas Nakomi if she's an agent of the Creator or a mechanism of the Wheel acts as if she interfered directly to nudge, ie: a breaking of the rules we know. It's the same if it's her who's there at the end nudging Rand.

I think what I'd prefer her to be is Verin's soul and a Hero of the Horn, a Weaver figure, who breaks the rules - a Hero the Wheel who puzzled out how to touch the human world while dead in TAR. Brigitte, who broke the rules to get involved with living humans in TAR and nudge them/help them... thus correcting the Pattern even while dead, would be an example of this of that type of corrective action. Nakomi would only go even further in the breaking of rules. So Verin once dead would have gained her Hero knowledge, and ever the cunning but cautious nudger, she broke the rules to interfere with two more of her usual nudges.. one to Aviendha (the Aiel always fascinated her for some reason) and one to Rand. There are deeper things about the Aiel that have not been explicitely revealed. Rand murmurs to himself a comment clearly taken from LTT's memories - unless it's just another example of Brandon giving a character knowledge he shouldn't have - allusion to what will happen now when they wake from the Dream, when the final purpose of the Aiel is decided. The whole second vision of Aviendha in Rhuidean may have been triggered by Nakomi reprogramming the ter'angreal to show the future. If so, by this interference Nakomi's meddling provided the final resolution to Rand, that without which it would have failed. It gave the fourth Age its initial shape. That's a huge nudge, it totally changed the weaving.

LoialT
01-11-2013, 11:15 AM
I also don't think it's really at all likely that Verin could be a hero. The Heroes of the Horn are not just heroic characters who make wonderful sacrifices for the Light. They are warriors, every one that we know of, and none seem able to channel (except the Dragon, I guess). Verin is an amazing hero, one of my favorite characters, but she is not a warrior. Cadsuane, Egwene, Moiraine: they are warrior channelers. I thought perhaps that all the channeling Heroes had been spun out, and that Egwene would show up again when the Horn was blown, but it seems like that is not the case.

Now, I think we've been seeing Nakomi the ENTIRE series. She is the wind that begins every book, the Creator checking up on Creation. I don't think the winds were ever just a rhetorical trope for readers, these particular winds were something more and the way the opening wind slams into the wind from Shai'tan in TGS, I think, supports this idea. I also think she is the force providing visions, glimpses of the future, to see choices, and that she has something to do with TAR, where the winds seemed to scour everything to dust before the closing of the Bore. Might Nakomi be the winds of Time that the Dragon rides?

I think Perrin shows us a little what it's like to be Nakomi when he speaks with Nynaeve at the Pit, where she cannot see him, like the way that the Creator and the Dark One communicate with people. In this final book Perrin becomes something of a god, with plenty of Thor, thundergod imagery, and able to wake from the dream at will. We also see something where Rand moves through his Dream realities unnoticed, checking on how things are going.

The way LTT talks about the Creator as a gardner who moves on as the gardens are destroyed, has a very Way of the Leaf sound to it, and perhaps Nakomi was the Mother of the Aiel, who later became the Children of the Dragon, who then became the Mother (or People) of the Dragon. Why she takes a specific physical form as an Aiel woman (especially if she is Verin) is still quite a mystery, and it may not have been something that RJ ever intended, if she came from "deep" within Rand's notes.

I've always felt that the Creator was always hugely disaggregated, that all souls were the Creator, that reality was their collective dream, from which bits and pieces could wake, while the Dark One represented a purely monolithic force, unvaried, untrusting, undivided. Nakomi may be a conscious manifestation of the Creator, but then so would Rand be now. Is it just the two of them? Is reality their dreamshard? What, then, is the Wheel? Are there perhaps other kinds of Heroes, not tied to the Horn of Valere, perhaps, that also live on in TAR? What we might call gods? The ones who made all the rules and precepts that Birgitte breaks? Perhaps Verin is one of these and that's who Nakomi is.

Tamyrlin
01-11-2013, 11:33 AM
I also don't think it's really at all likely that Verin could be a hero. The Heroes of the Horn are not just heroic characters who make wonderful sacrifices for the Light. They are warriors, every one that we know of, and none seem able to channel (except the Dragon, I guess). Verin is an amazing hero, one of my favorite characters, but she is not a warrior. Cadsuane, Egwene, Moiraine: they are warrior channelers. I thought perhaps that all the channeling Heroes had been spun out, and that Egwene would show up again when the Horn was blown, but it seems like that is not the case.


Certainly some heroes are souls which have the ability to channel, and it's too simplistic to suggest that all Heroes are "warriors". Heroes are corrective mechanisms, perhaps one such group of others we are unaware of, as a few of us have mentioned. And we have no reason to believe we've seen all of the Heroes. Consider the Horn for a moment. We do not know if it is tied to a specific group of Heroes, nor how it was created. It would seem, as with the Portal Stones, that it may be part of the programming of the Wheel (to me.)


Now, I think we've been seeing Nakomi the ENTIRE series. She is the wind that begins every book, the Creator checking up on Creation. I don't think the winds were ever just a rhetorical trope for readers, these particular winds were something more and the way the opening wind slams into the wind from Shai'tan in TGS, I think, supports this idea. I also think she is the force providing visions, glimpses of the future, to see choices, and that she has something to do with TAR, where the winds seemed to scour everything to dust before the closing of the Bore. Might Nakomi be the winds of Time that the Dragon rides?


Nakomi as the Wind...I like that the wind is purposeful, but why Nakomi? What evidence would connect the wind to Nakomi? And what visions and glimpses of the future do you mean? The Mirror Worlds already provide a variety of this information to the Wheel, along with the Age Lace of previous and future Turnings.

While I agree with you, that the concept of Nakomi was around prior to this, the wind seems an weak connection.


The way LTT talks about the Creator as a gardner who moves on as the gardens are destroyed, has a very Way of the Leaf sound to it, and perhaps Nakomi was the Mother of the Aiel, who later became the Children of the Dragon, who then became the Mother (or People) of the Dragon. Why she takes a specific physical form as an Aiel woman (especially if she is Verin) is still quite a mystery, and it may not have been something that RJ ever intended, if she came from "deep" within Rand's notes.


The fact that they are in Rand's notes is interesting. Rand's "mother", a mother of creation, a caretaker for each garden after the gardner leaves perhaps.


I've always felt that the Creator was always hugely disaggregated, that all souls were the Creator, that reality was their collective dream, from which bits and pieces could wake, while the Dark One represented a purely monolithic force, unvaried, untrusting, undivided. Nakomi may be a conscious manifestation of the Creator, but then so would Rand be now. Is it just the two of them? Is reality their dreamshard? What, then, is the Wheel? Are there perhaps other kinds of Heroes, not tied to the Horn of Valere, perhaps, that also live on in TAR? What we might call gods? The ones who made all the rules and precepts that Birgitte breaks? Perhaps Verin is one of these and that's who Nakomi is.

I don't enjoy this "reality is a dreamshard". There are clear metaphysics about the Real Worlds, the Dream World, the Void, the Prison, and how they are connected. How can the entirety of the Real Worlds, Universes, Dimension be a Dreamshard? It doesn't work.

Now to the concept of a god, The Wheel is that system. It is the super computer/AI. Why would anything but the Creator/Wheel have determined precepts by which the Heroes are governed? Is it possible these precepts are an agreement Heroes made together, which is why they can be broken so easily? Sure. Is there an overarching group, or presence above the Heroes? I think it is possible that there are other corrective mechanisms, but we have to be careful not to assume that everything we saw occur when the Pattern was breaking apart, would somehow be the norm.

We still need someone to ask one of those Nakomi questions or variations of it, to understand if we should be looking for Nakomi prior to ToM. The Aiel garb seems a bit on the nose. I understand it when showing up with Aviendha, but again with Rand? Seems clear we are to associate Nakomi with the Jenn and/or with Rand's mother, with the tie into deep into Rand's notes...is deep suggestive of LTT/Dragon, deep into Rand's history?

Dom
01-11-2013, 11:42 AM
I also don't think it's really at all likely that Verin could be a hero. The Heroes of the Horn are not just heroic characters who make wonderful sacrifices for the Light. They are warriors, every one that we know of, and none seem able to channel

Brandon sort of contradicted you on the first: he said if a Hero soul has the ability to channel, he/she'd be able to channel when the Horn calls. It implies some can and it's in the notes, or Brandon wouldn't know. Rand is an example, but it's doubtful RJ noted somewhere he'd be able to channel if called by the Horn, as it's totally irrelevant to his story.

RJ flatly contradicted you on the second:
" the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. "

So no, it's not because the Heroes come to fight a the call of the Horn that they're all warriors.

It's also been suggested that perhaps the Horn doesn't call all the Hero Souls, just the warriors among them, though I think that idea is probably not right.

Dom
01-11-2013, 12:12 PM
I don't enjoy this "reality is a dreamshard". There are clear metaphysics about the Real Worlds, the Dream World, the Void, the Prison, and how they are connected. How can the entirety of the Real Worlds, Universes, Dimension be a Dreamshard? It doesn't work.

Indeed.

TAR is a reflection of the whole. The reflection of the barriers seem easier to trespass than the actual barriers, much like Dreamers can get a small idea of what it feels like to be the Creator playing with the reflection of reality... to the extent a human mind/will can affect much of anything and for very long. A grain of sand compared to the Creator.

Reality as a "dreamshard", Reality being a folding of TAR... none of that works or goes in the right direction.

It's more that Creation to entities like Shai'tan and the Creator is malleable like TAR to a skilled Dreamwalker, just in a vastly greater way.

TAR is a collective unconscious the Wheel populates with archetypal "creatures". I'm sure a lot of "memories" of Heroes through the Ages don't survive the mundane way but through people dreaming of those Heroes.

In our Age, we call that "inspiration", unless one was Carl Jung anyway.

Is it possible these precepts are an agreement Heroes made together, which is why they can be broken so easily?

That, and the Wheel seems programmed to avoid as much as possible removing choices. There always seems to be somewhere the unlikely possibility to break the rules, if you dare, if you're willing to pay the price. It's a theme in the series.

Birgitte did. Moghedien did, Elayne did by bonding Birgitte to keep her in the real world. Creation accepts the DO's transmigrations, his Grey Men. Aginor found a way to break the rules with the gholam, that can Travel (well, maybe it's Brandon who broke a rule there!).

Perrin learned how to break the rules, Egwene did. Etc. The rules exist, but the choice to break them for a price seems to always exist.

Can a Hero of the Horn break the rules to the point of touching the RW while dead? Why not? The Horn of Valere is an artefact that does just that, breaking the natural order of things. And it's not a Creator given artefact, we know for fact it was made by mortals in a past Age or turning of the Wheel. If someone figured out how to bring dead heroes in the real world like this, it's not quite impossible a Hero of the Horn figured out how to do it another way, when he/she wants, rather then when someone calls the Horn.

Rule breakers can be extremely valuable assets. Birgitte is such and she's a Hero. Mat is such, and he isn't, but not for that.

Rand's arc gave us a very good idea how much the Wheel values choices.

Davian93
01-11-2013, 12:19 PM
New Theory: Rand didnt win the Last Battle. He's still dying at Shayol Ghul and all of this is a dreamshard his subconscious created for him.

LoialT
01-11-2013, 01:31 PM
Okay, okay, you have both convinced me! Heroes don't have to be warriors. They are more corrective mechanisms, then? Although I don't really like the term "corrective mechanisms" for people...

And I agree, that if the Hero were say a powerful dreamer, that if they chose to they should easily be able to do what Nakomi seems to. Perrin even starts to get close to such an ability to affect the RW by jumping and pulling people back and forth. Nakomi could have pulled Rand into TAR in the flesh, physically changed him (like Rahvin almost did), and returned him. That her name is Nakomi and she is an Aiel wise woman also suggests that she may be a powerful dreamer, indeed THE hero of the dream, perhaps.

Not sure that this suggests anything about Verin, but it's possible. She has some connection to TAR through Corianin and the ring and Egwene, but I'd expect her to be a dreamer in life if she was Nakomi in death, unless the Nakomi is actually more about being the spider. There are also some parallels with TGH where Verin sends Rand off, waiting for him to return, "not interfering," but remaining until she can hand him off to Moiraine.

Perhaps unrelated... but I thought I'd ask:

There is also something that Slayer says to Perrin about his powers. "Something that requires a soul to be melded with something else. Like what happened to you, Aybara. Like you." Perrin, of course, protests that they are nothing alike, but I wonder. What might this mean? I don't think he can mean the ability to dreamwalk, as that is not so special. Maybe being a wolf brother? But that also seems not what he means. True, we don't actually know how becoming a wolf brother actually works. It may be different than being a Dreamer or dreamwalker. Do the wolves do it? Did it matter that it happened near SL? Nakomi or some Hero of the Wolf Dream (I kinda hate that idea)?

What I am assuming Slayer actually meant was Perrin's new ability to move between TAR and reality in the flesh at will, and I have to assume it has something to do with his new hammer. Not sure how, but it seemed to bring him back to life when he was wounded and allow him to wake from the dream. Was Perrin actually supposed to die and then live again? Mat does. Rand does. Perrin almost does (or does he die??). And the Shadow prophecy does seem to say he will fall and lead to despair. Unless Perrin is not the Broken Wolf whom Death has known. Or unless the prophecies of the Shadow and the Light are mutually exclusive possible pathways?

Terez
01-11-2013, 01:54 PM
The TGH dark prophecy says Perrin will die.

Ieyasu
01-11-2013, 01:58 PM
The TGH dark prophecy says Perrin will die.


and he will... no one makes it out alive ;)

Terez
01-11-2013, 01:59 PM
Serve her and die, and serve still. Since Lanfear is dead...well, you can read, can't you? I hope so. ;)

fionwe1987
01-11-2013, 03:57 PM
I thought perhaps that all the channeling Heroes had been spun out, and that Egwene would show up again when the Horn was blown, but it seems like that is not the case.
We have no way of knowing weather someone just dead can immediately come back when the Horn is sounded. Birgette is different. She didn't have a natural birth, so we can't use her as proof for anything. Not that we should simply assume Egwene is a Hero either (though it does seem likely. Lews Therin has twice now been saved from complete disaster by the insistant opposition of a woman who leads...).



I don't enjoy this "reality is a dreamshard". There are clear metaphysics about the Real Worlds, the Dream World, the Void, the Prison, and how they are connected. How can the entirety of the Real Worlds, Universes, Dimension be a Dreamshard? It doesn't work.

Actually, it does. But when I say Reality is a folding of TAR, I don't really mean Dreamshards. Dreamshards are the seed of the same concept that I think is to be found in the Creators way of making Reality. But the making of Reality is many many orders of magnitude more complicated.

Let's look at what we know:

1) There are three constants: The Creator, the Dark One, and Tel'aran'rhiod. The Wheel and the Pattern are not in this list, meaning they're part of one of these three. Is the Wheel the Creator? We have good reason to believe otherwise. Obviously, it is not the Dark One. Here are Verin's words:

“Well, that is neither here nor there. In all of these worlds, whatever their other variations, a few things are constant. One is that the Dark One is imprisoned in all of them.”
In spite of herself, Egwene stepped closer to peer at the lines Verin had drawn. “In all of them? How can that be? Are you saying there is a Father of Lies for each world?” The thought of so many Dark Ones made her shiver.
“No, child. There is one Creator, who exists everywhere at once for all of these worlds. In the same way, there is only one Dark One, who also exists in all of these worlds at once. If he is freed from the prison the Creator made in one world, he is freed on all. So long as he is kept prisoner in one, he remains imprisoned on all.”

...

The point is that there is a third constant besides the Creator and the Dark One. There is a world that lies within each of these others, inside all of them at the same time. Or perhaps surrounding them. Writers in the Age of Legends called it Tel’aran’rhiod, “the Unseen World.” Perhaps “the World of Dreams” is a better translation. Many people – ordinary folk who could not think of channeling - sometimes glimpse Tel’aran’rhiod in their dreams, and even catch glimmers of these other worlds through it. Think of some of the peculiar things you have seen in your dreams. But a Dreamer, child - a true Dreamer - can enter Tel’aran’rhiod.”

TAR is inside the worlds. Or surrounding them. And what was the first object that represented (and was a Gateway to) this place? A ring that was a Mobius Strip, something that has only one surface, though it looks like there should be two. Similar shaped gateways allow access to the other worlds that Verin mentions.

What are TAR's properties? It is infinitely malleable. In its basest form, which we see beyond skimming platforms, it is infine, is neither dark nor bright, and is a space where humans can create, but within limits.

Within TAR, a powerful Dreamwalker can create an entire fake reality (much like Rand did against the DO) and force another into it (as Egwene was by Moghedien). But that doesn't prove Reality is a fold of it.

What would prove that Reality is at its basest essence, TAR? The one constant property of TAR is malleability. And malleability by thought. You can actually create something that within that space is solid. Have we seen people do this in Reality? Yes, but not easily. We've seen what Moghedien did to Birgette. Clearly, in this case, whatever matter Birgette's body was made out of came from reality. Birgette had no real body in TAR. And she wasn't naturally born in Reality. Then how did Moggy manage to push her into Reality with an actual body, unless Reality can indeed be manipulated?

Then look at Mordeth. In the awake world, he is able to do very Dreamwalker like things. Then there's Rand, of course, and even the Heroes when called by the Horn.

The same is the case with Singing. When Loial sings to a tree to change some of its wood into a staff, he's accessing the inherent malleability of Reality (in this case of a Mirror World).

The strongest evidence, though, comes from mythological parallels. RJ used a ton of mythologies for his characters and events. But the core concepts of the world, the Wheel, the Great Serpent, etc. came from Hindu and Jain myth. The name for TAR is not from Hindu myth, but the concept is.

One of the ideas RJ borrowed a lot from is the idea that "reality" is an illusion, Maya (and he gave the Amayar their name from here, since they believe life is an Illusion) . Maya is also the name of the goddess who actually makes this false perception of reality possible, clouding the vision of men.

Sidebar: Interestingly, she also does this for Vishnu the Protector (who is a Rand parallel, in that he takes human form from time to time to fight evil). His eyes are open to true perception only when, at the behest of the Creator (Brahma), she withdraws from his eyes, allowing him to slay two deamons. This might actually be a good parallel for what Nakomi does with Rand in the end. She's there to witness his realization of choice, and true understanding of the Pattern. After this point, he's able to manipulate reality as if he's broken through its illusion.

Back to what I was saying: In Hindu myth, Anantha the Great Serpent, is the keeper of time. All creation happens when he uncoils himself, and when he coils back, creation is destroyed, in a continuous cycle. Critically, he's a manifestation, or Avatar, of Brahman, the "ultimate reality"/the Supreme Self, which is hidden to human beings by Maya.

Brahman, in Hindu mythology, achieves a state like "deep sleep", and the dream arising from this deep sleep is Maya or reality.

Interestingly, Brahman's manifestation as the Creator deity has a male and female half: Brahma the Creator, and his female aspect, Saraswathi, the Goddess of all knowledge. One could, perhaps, think of the Voice and Nakomi as representations of this male-female division inherent in creation.

Anyway, I think I've rambled a lot. Not every aspect of Hindu myth is directly a part of WoT, of course, but one can see clear parallels between Brahman and TAR, Brahma and the Creator, Reality and Maya, the Aiel and Amayar belief that life is an illusion/dream, the duality of creation/destruction and the Great Serpent that keeps time.

Add to these mythological parallels the bits of evidence we have from the books, it becomes pretty clear that Reality is a dream too. Its a folding/aspect of TAR, one that can intersect with TAR at times, and one that is also malleable like TAR. However, this folding has rules, and houses the souls of humans, which form the Great Pattern. It seems pretty clear that the base material of TAR has been shaped into something complex beyond human ability by the Creator, into a Reality where it is human choice that matters. In this space, it is harder for humans to access the malleability that allows them to bend TAR to their will. They are, if you will, blinded by the illusion. Some people, though, penetrate through that enough that they can indeed alter it to their will.

Tamyrlin
01-11-2013, 05:49 PM
I'm trying to finish up a theory/discussion on a topic that came to me the other day (Fain/Mordeth), which I hope to post this weekend. But I will respond. I was mainly speaking to the concepts LoialT put forward when I responded.

Fourth Age Historian
01-20-2013, 09:48 PM
My reading of Nakomi, especially after we saw her again at the end of TG, was that she was sort of the Creator's version of Shaidar Haran. His avatar in the world as things accelerated toward the end.

Having said that, I love the modification of that idea which suggests her as the "female half" of the Creator's avatar, with Rand as the male half. It does make a certain kind of sense, although I think it's a bit of a leap to just assume Rand is now immortal in his new body. He could be, but I don't think we know. Maybe there's enough info floating out there to make a definitive statement one way or the other about that.

My other thought about this male/female split: Do we have any previous evidence of an Age where it's a female's role to choose at the end? Wouldn't the AOL have been the girls' turn? Or would we assume that it comes in pairs, so that bore is opened, man dies sealing it, man is reborn and fixes bore, bore is opened, woman dies sealing bore... etc?

Terez
01-20-2013, 10:30 PM
My reading of Nakomi, especially after we saw her again at the end of TG, was that she was sort of the Creator's version of Shaidar Haran. His avatar in the world as things accelerated toward the end.
I have no words to express how much I hate this theory. And also, it goes against the fact (confirmed by RJ) that the Creator doesn't interfere. Whether she did anything with Rand or not, what she did with Aviendha certainly counts as interference.

Rand al'Fain
01-21-2013, 01:13 AM
Unbased, but could Nakomi be the incarnation of Tigraine? Or some sort of guiding spirit?

GonzoTheGreat
01-21-2013, 05:05 AM
Serve her and die, and serve still. Since Lanfear is dead...well, you can read, can't you? I hope so. ;)
But is that about Perrin or about Moridin?

Fourth Age Historian
01-21-2013, 07:10 AM
I have no words to express how much I hate this theory. And also, it goes against the fact (confirmed by RJ) that the Creator doesn't interfere. Whether she did anything with Rand or not, what she did with Aviendha certainly counts as interference.

I hear that... I don't know if I love it either. The other ideas being floated are interesting as well.

I wonder if the scene with her talking to (or at) Rand was written by RJ, and the "something buried in the notes" simply gave her a name, and the rest was BS? Leaving him nothing to go on but needing to establish this Nakmoi SOMEHOW. I'm not claiming that makes his execution of it good; it sucked. But it would make it a little more understandable a flaw.

ShadowbaneX
01-21-2013, 08:30 AM
It's not entirely impossible, but Tam's description of finding someone having passed away having given birth alone...well, that's pretty precise. It's possible that the woman there isn't Tigrane, but I'm not entirely sure how you could arrange that scene so that the woman isn't Tigrane. Also, a little too Poledra/Eddings.

Daekyras
01-21-2013, 09:01 AM
It's not entirely impossible, but Tam's description of finding someone having passed away having given birth alone...well, that's pretty precise. It's possible that the woman there isn't Tigrane, but I'm not entirely sure how you could arrange that scene so that the woman isn't Tigrane. Also, a little too Poledra/Eddings.

Ha, she'd more likely be Perrins Mam...

I would also like to take this oppurtunity to say that I hated the whole nakomi business. It is a side track into nothing.

Not anywhere near enough information and all the theories about her suffer from huge "logic holes".

GonzoTheGreat
01-21-2013, 09:21 AM
Grendel and Grendel's mother. So, obviously, Nakomi is the mother of the DO.

ShadowbaneX
01-21-2013, 09:42 AM
Ha, she'd more likely be Perrins Mam...

I would also like to take this oppurtunity to say that I hated the whole nakomi business. It is a side track into nothing.

Not anywhere near enough information and all the theories about her suffer from huge "logic holes".

I guess she was used as a motive for Aviendha to screw with the glass columns. Her reappearence at the end just seems like something to drive people nuts. An additional twist to drive us nuts and to speculate, something to keep us hooked until the Encyclopia WoT-ica comes out.

An additional point about her, how did she know what Rand needed to do? She's got way too much knowledge, moreso than anyone else has any reason to. There's no logic or basis to understand what she it, and so little to base a theory off of.

Dom
01-21-2013, 09:48 AM
I wonder if the scene with her talking to (or at) Rand was written by RJ, and the "something buried in the notes" simply gave her a name, and the rest was BS?

Brandon got a bit defensive about that. He specified that he never said he found Nakomi deep in RJ's notes but that something deep in the notes made him include Nakomi.

He basically admitted she's his creation, and it probably explains why she's an aboriginal goddess rather than Celtic.

The reactions about Nakomi are so negative I wouldn't be surprised Brandon caves in and convinces Harriet to let him provide something of an explanation down the line (Brandon is supposed to write blog posts and eventually they'll do full spoilers Q&A).

metaphor
01-21-2013, 06:55 PM
At first I got the impression that Nakomi was someone or something tied to the Ruhidean and was freed once it was destroyed.

Serve her and die, and serve still. Since Lanfear is dead...well, you can read, can't you? I hope so. ;)

But don't the dark prophecies predict what will happen leading to the DO to win?
So it would make sense that some of them are not fulfilled. But maybe RJ said something about them in his interviews and confirmed they will al be fulfilled.

Morsker
01-22-2013, 12:14 AM
An additional point about her, how did she know what Rand needed to do? She's got way too much knowledge, moreso than anyone else has any reason to. There's no logic or basis to understand what she it, and so little to base a theory off of.
If Verin's note told Rand about the body swap, and Nakomi is Verin, then she'd have a reason for commenting to him about it.

Verin knowing to put that in the note is it's own problem, but it sure beats the Creator showing up.

Terez
01-22-2013, 12:33 AM
But don't the dark prophecies predict what will happen leading to the DO to win?
No, they're prophecies like any other prophecies. This isn't Goodkind, and RJ made it clear via Moiraine in TGH that Dark Prophecies have a way of coming true just like Light prophecies.

Rand al'Fain
01-22-2013, 01:42 AM
If Verin's note told Rand about the body swap, and Nakomi is Verin, then she'd have a reason for commenting to him about it.

Verin knowing to put that in the note is it's own problem, but it sure beats the Creator showing up.

But Verin poisoned herself and her body was hidden. Egwene winessed her die.

GonzoTheGreat
01-22-2013, 03:24 AM
But Verin poisoned herself and her body was hidden. Egwene winessed her die.
The DO may have recycled her. Would explain the name change, too. :p

Morsker
01-22-2013, 03:40 AM
But Verin poisoned herself and her body was hidden. Egwene winessed her die.
It would have to be a "Nakomi is dead Verin," and one of the Heroes. I honestly have no idea how the timeline works in TGS and if Verin died before or after Aviendha's vision.

padfoot89
01-24-2013, 07:49 AM
I guess she was used as a motive for Aviendha to screw with the glass columns. Her reappearence at the end just seems like something to drive people nuts. An additional twist to drive us nuts and to speculate, something to keep us hooked until the Encyclopia WoT-ica comes out.


I don't mind waiting till the Encyclopedia comes out, so long as we get a decent explanation about it and not go the Tom Bombadill route.

Davian93
01-24-2013, 09:14 PM
Here's an interesting interview quote concerning the Creator that might have some relevance on the Voice and Nakomi for that matter:

INTERVIEW: Mar, 2000
Letter to Paul Ward (Verbatim)
PAUL WARD
Possible question: Is the Dark One pure True Power? Why does the Creator ignore Randland except to talk to Rand at the end of The Eye of the World?
ROBERT JORDAN
No, the Dark One is not pure True Power. Who says the Creator takes little interest in the activities of mankind? And I will neither confirm nor deny that the Creator spoke to Rand.
PAUL WARD
Neither confirm nor deny? What's up with that?

Perhaps its not out of left field for the Creator to take part in some limited fashion through his Voice and/or some sort of avatar (Nakomi).

For those that have been ripping it as out of place.

GonzoTheGreat
01-25-2013, 04:29 AM
So, just Selucia is Tuon's Voice, Nakomi is the Creator's. And the Dark One of course had THE VOICE, which had a personality of its own but no need for a physical presence.

Great Lord of the Dark
04-07-2014, 07:39 PM
In the end, upon further reflection, I lay my wager on Shaiel, for the reasons below, quoted from my blog:

Rand is blind and burdened with weight. After escaping the Pit of Doom, Rand realizes an unfamiliar woman is kneeling next to him, guiding him on what to do. The major clue to her identity comes in the following paragraph with the juxtaposition of two ideas in successive sentences: He blinked, his vision fuzzy. Was that Aiel clothing? An old woman with gray hair? Her form retreated, and Rand reached toward her, not wanting to be alone. Wanting to explain himself.

Rand not wanting to be alone refers to his attaining adulthood, which firms up the link with his mother, Shaiel. She is offering him final words of encouragement as he enters the world alone, and he is expressing his final regrets about leaving the dependence of childhood behind. It is reasonable that the last to let go of a child who grows into a man is his mother, and since there has been much ado over Rand’s father figures, it is appropriate for his mother to have her brief time on the page as well.

Shaiel’s death was only ever confirmed by Tam, and that came in a fever-dream. If she somehow survived Rand’s birth, it seems implausible that a woman of her renown could have returned to Aiel society without being recognized. She might have intentionally lived alone in the wilderness for two decades, if so motivated by Gitara’s original Foretelling. More likely is that she is a Hero of the Horn, which explains her appearance in Aiel garb and her apparent knowledge about what Rand should do. (I no longer consider her knowledge reason enough to think she is a Hero) It does not however explain her appearance at Aviendha’s side when she was tested at Rhuidean, if she is the same woman, as seems likely.

Terez
04-09-2014, 01:06 PM
We were having a side conversation about Nakomi as Tigraine in the thread about the link between Moridin and Rand. I wouldn't have found the theory particularly compelling without Dom's ideas on Tigraine and Luc as Calian and Shivan because Nakomi-as-Hero seemed to be the only explanation for her apparition in the Waste. It wasn't unbelievable, but it wasn't compelling. It was the way Rand ended that convinced me. I have always recognized that there was a tie between the foreshadowing for Rand-Moridin and the Isam-Luc merge, evident at the latest by TGH "Blood Calls Blood". I posted the quotes every now and then, highlighting the way the prophecies and foreshadowings tie together, but always as a curiosity because I didn't believe that Rand would end the series in Moridin's body. (I believed he would sever the link via death somehow.)

While Nakomi-as-generic-Hero would give a believable reason for why she knew what Rand should do, Nakomi-as-Tigraine/Calian gives a compelling reason: her brother, now fully at rest, had experience with something very similar. It also explains many other things. Slayer told Perrin that his power to step in and out of Tel'aran'rhiod resulted from his soul being melded with something else. In Isam's case, it was Luc/Shivan, whose soul should have gone to Tel'aran'rhiod when he died. In Perrin's case, it was Hopper, who as a wolf resided in Tel'aran'rhiod when he died. In Moridin's case, it was Rand whose soul should have gone to Tel'aran'rhiod when he died. The three situations are different because of the nature of the beings involved, their perspectives and the scopes of their imaginations.

I suspect that RJ wrote the scene you quoted and that Brandon changed the description of the woman so that he could use her more discreetly with Aviendha. Rand tells his mother, Calian the Chooser, "To choose is our fate." It may be that Brandon added the woman altogether in that scene, but I tend to think he only adapted and disguised her, knowing that the Heroes can probably appear however they want.

I would be interested to hear from anyone who disagrees with Nakomi=Tigraine at this point. As I said in the other thread, it appears to be the only perfect theory, and I can't imagine why anyone would find it unconvincing.

Southpaw2012
04-09-2014, 01:21 PM
I think we can get an answer out of Brandon this weekend about whether or not the woman was in the original ending.

Terez
04-09-2014, 01:25 PM
Yes, we should get together and have several people prepared to ask a list of questions along those lines, if possible. If not at the Q&A, then at the signing table.

Southpaw2012
04-09-2014, 01:57 PM
I'm down for that. He might be more willing to talk now that the book has been out awhile. At least in regards to certain topics.

Weird Harold
04-09-2014, 02:33 PM
I wouldn't have found the theory particularly compelling without Dom's ideas on Tigraine and Luc as Calian and Shivan because Nakomi-as-Hero seemed to be the only explanation for her apparition in the Waste.

Luc can't be Shivan because Callian and Shivan were present Falme.


TGH,Ch47 - Mat blows the Horn of Valere and calls forth the Heroes of the Horn including Calian the Chooser.

TGH,Ch47 - Mat blows the Horn of Valere and calls forth the Heroes of the Horn including Shivan the Hunter.

SauceyBlueConfetti
04-09-2014, 02:54 PM
Yes, we should get together and have several people prepared to ask a list of questions along those lines, if possible. If not at the Q&A, then at the signing table.

Has Brandon commented on your theory? Wait, I think you said you sent him a note on it, right?

I would love to hear that discussion...

I am drawing a blank also, is Harriet going to be there?

Southpaw2012
04-09-2014, 03:59 PM
Has Brandon commented on your theory? Wait, I think you said you sent him a note on it, right?

I would love to hear that discussion...

I am drawing a blank also, is Harriet going to be there?


Yup she is!

Terez
04-09-2014, 05:18 PM
Luc can't be Shivan because Callian and Shivan were present Falme.
Yes, I know. Luc was already dead at that point. His life-thread was still merged with Isam's, but he was dead.

One did live, and one did die, but both are.

Weird Harold
04-09-2014, 11:06 PM
Yes, I know. Luc was already dead at that point. His life-thread was still merged with Isam's, but he was dead.

You assume it was Luc that died. Either way, Luc's soul wasn't running free to answer the Horn's call.

Terez
04-09-2014, 11:18 PM
You assume it was Luc that died.
Seems a fairly safe assumption to make.

Either way, Luc's soul wasn't running free to answer the Horn's call.
Says who?

GonzoTheGreat
04-10-2014, 03:41 AM
Says who?
Says the part of the book where Luc didn't run away from his confrontation with Perrin to answer the call of the Horn when Olver sounded it. Of course, timing is a bit tricky, so one might argue those periods did not overlap.

Weird Harold
04-10-2014, 04:08 AM
Says who?
Yes, I know. Luc was already dead at that point. His life-thread was still merged with Isam's, but he was dead.

Says you.

Seems a fairly safe assumption to make.

How do you figure that? Luc and Isam merged and choose which persona to manifest almost equally. I can't see anything that details which gained the ability to become the other.

It seems as likely as anything that Luc won the duel and Isam possessed him as he died. Isam was the one raised in the blight by mad male channelers; he would have had more opportunity to pick up the odd bit of arcana needed to avoid death by possessing his killer. There's nothing in Luc's "whitebread" royal upbringing to suggest he would have learned something like that.

Terez
04-10-2014, 04:43 AM
Says you.
Nope. Soul and life-thread are two different things.

How do you figure that? Luc and Isam merged and choose which persona to manifest almost equally.
One died, and the other did not. That in itself suggests that not all things were equal.

It seems as likely as anything that Luc won the duel and Isam possessed him as he died.
I suspect they were merged beforehand.

Isam was the one raised in the blight by mad male channelers; he would have had more opportunity to pick up the odd bit of arcana needed to avoid death by possessing his killer. There's nothing in Luc's "whitebread" royal upbringing to suggest he would have learned something like that.
Well, he was turned by the time he killed Janduin, at least. But RJ said that Slayer's powers were a gift from the Dark One, and Brandon further confirmed that it was a result of their merge.

Weird Harold
04-10-2014, 06:44 AM
Nope. Soul and life-thread are two different things.

When have we ever seen a life thread that wasn't tied to the soul? Whatever you want to call it, Shivan appeared at Falme while Luc was otherwise occupied. Not even Heroes of the Horn can be in two places at once.

One died, and the other did not. That in itself suggests that not all things were equal.


However inequal they may have been at the merger, there is no evidence or suggestion that they are unequal partners in "Slayer Inc." and therefore no indication as to which died.

I do not dispute that one died and the other did not. I just don't see any evidence as to who died and who did not.

I suspect they were merged beforehand.


Well, he was turned by the time he killed Janduin, at least. But RJ said that Slayer's powers were a gift from the Dark One, and Brandon further confirmed that it was a result of their merge.

You're missing the point that if one of them had to initiate the merger, then Isam was the one most likely to have the requisite knowledge. Plus a merger of threads seems like a desperation tactic; it doesn't seem like it would be a life's goal or dream job, but it does seem like the last resort of someone who was losing a fight.

GonzoTheGreat
04-10-2014, 07:03 AM
When have we ever seen a life thread that wasn't tied to the soul?
In TGH (chapter 36, Among the Elders), when Trayal the Ogier was shown as an example of how Machin Shin can take away a soul while leaving the body alive.

Now, I admit that Luc/Isam seems to be more aware and responsive than Trayal did, so it isn't clear which side of the debate this example is supposed to support. Probably the "we don't know" side, which is where I seem to be at the moment.

Weird Harold
04-10-2014, 07:42 AM
In TGH (chapter 36, Among the Elders), when Trayal the Ogier was shown as an example of how Machin Shin can take away a soul while leaving the body alive.

Thnx.

Now, I admit that Luc/Isam seems to be more aware and responsive than Trayal did, so it isn't clear which side of the debate this example is supposed to support. Probably the "we don't know" side, which is where I seem to be at the moment.

It would seem to support the premise that both Isam and Luc's souls are tied up in the merger, whichever body died. Which would also seem to support the premise that Luc can't be Shivan because Luc's soul can't answer the Horn.

Ishara
04-10-2014, 07:54 AM
It's not that the Nakomi/ Tigraine/ Callian link isn't compelling - it's that the other half of the theory of Luc/ Isam/ Shivan link isn't convincing to me (yet).

There have several issues raised, chief among them that:
a) we din't see Luc at Falme when the Horn was called the first time, we saw Shivan. The people who saw him (Perrin among them) didn't note anything extraordinary when we know, for a fact, that anyone who has seen Slayer - in either form - has a remarkable similarity to Rand and to Lan. Meaning, Shivan was in his TAR/ Hero Archetype appearance, meaning he wasn't inhabiting anyone - yet.
b) Slayer didn't abandon his battle with Perrin when the Horn was called in the Last battle, either.

My other thought, and this could come to nothing, is whether a Hero's soul could be corrupted in the manner it would need to be to be linked with Slayer. Woldn't that be a major coup for the Dark? Like balance-tipping big?

Finally, I will raise the point that every time we saw Slayer in his "natural" form in the real world, it was in Luc's body. Isam only appeared in TAR, as the more standard form of Slayer. That would indicate to me that Luc won the fight, and theat Isam was the one who died - whose soul was freed up to join with, and corrupt, Luc's. Which seems to subvert the idea even further. After all, if Shivan was Luc, then he wouldn't have appeared at Falme either, since the Hero soul was in a body, even one occupied by another soul.

Anyways, food for thought, maybe. But this one is fun, please be sure to report back on your discussions with Brandon (and Maria!!).

GonzoTheGreat
04-10-2014, 08:10 AM
Finally, I will raise the point that every time we saw Slayer in his "natural" form in the real world, it was in Luc's body. Isam only appeared in TAR, as the more standard form of Slayer.
And in the Prologue of AMoL, while waiting in the Town. And, as we learned in WH, it had been Isam, not Luc, who killed the two captive BA in the Stone in TSR.

As far as we know, Luc/Isam can appear as either in the real world, but can only switch from one to the other in TAR.

SauceyBlueConfetti
04-10-2014, 08:12 AM
It's not that the Nakomi/ Tigraine/ Callian link isn't compelling - it's that the other half of the theory of Luc/ Isam/ Shivan link isn't convincing to me (yet).

....

My other thought, and this could come to nothing, is whether a Hero's soul could be corrupted in the manner it would need to be to be linked with Slayer. Woldn't that be a major coup for the Dark? Like balance-tipping big?



Rand and Moridin were merging. That kind if negates the corruption idea. The Dragon Soul merged with Ish? The DO should have been striving for that.

Ishara
04-10-2014, 10:13 AM
Rand and Moridin were merging. That kind if negates the corruption idea. The Dragon Soul merged with Ish? The DO should have been striving for that.

Yeah, fair enough. Okay, nevermind. :)

Originally Posted by Ishara
Finally, I will raise the point that every time we saw Slayer in his "natural" form in the real world, it was in Luc's body. Isam only appeared in TAR, as the more standard form of Slayer.

And in the Prologue of AMoL, while waiting in the Town. And, as we learned in WH, it had been Isam, not Luc, who killed the two captive BA in the Stone in TSR.

As far as we know, Luc/Isam can appear as either in the real world, but can only switch from one to the other in TAR.

Hmmm. Yes. Shoot. How does that work?

GonzoTheGreat
04-10-2014, 10:39 AM
How does that work?
Very well, thank you for asking.

A description of the process:
It really was a pity. He had rather looked forward to killing his nephew and the wench. But if there was time to pass, hunting was always a pleasure. He became Isam. Isam liked killing wolves even more than Luc did.
The "He became Isam." may not be very informative, but I think it's about the best we have on the subject.

fionwe1987
04-10-2014, 04:17 PM
When have we ever seen a life thread that wasn't tied to the soul?

Aren't Grey Men exactly that?

However, I do agree that Luc as Shivan is troubling. More, I have a vague memory of Birgette (when she was a Hero in TAR) commenting on Isam. Wouldn't she have shown some hint of knowing he's Shivan's latest life thread?

On the other hand, we do have some good hints on how "bonding" a Hero could work. Even Elayne bonding Birgette is a major clue, though they remained distinct entities.

And Nakomi being Tigraine... that's a very enticing idea. Even her somewhat "outsider" perspective of the Aiel, which she shares with Aviendha, makes sense in that case.

Plus, we already have one Hero who made a beeline for Rand when the Horn was blown (at least, I believe so, wrt Egwene). Why not another? We've seen that the Heroes went straight to those who needed them for their salvation the most (Jain to Olver, Birgette to Elayne, Egwene to Rand). So why not Calian to her son?

Also, if anyone going to the Con is reading this, and is in a position to ask extra questions, here are some I'd like answered:

1) Reading Ravens, it seems weird that Egwene was fascinated with Rand. Was this his being ta'veren in a small way (or the effects rippling back in time) was something else at play, or is nothing supernatural happening?

2) After aMoL was out, Maria said "there are fewer than there were" wrt. to Heroes who were in the flesh. Can she now name some Heroes who died in the series apart from Jain Farstrider?

3) Taim gets frozen in time with the bulk of the Sharan army. Can Balefire be used to liberate them, or is this permanent?

4) Did Cadsuane release herself from the Oaths, or did she die an Aes Sedai?

5) When Logain broke the Seals, the Dark One was able to burst free. Is this confirmation that the Boar had expanded behind the Seals?

6) A dual Warder bond gives you access to each others' abilities, powers and thoughts. Does the Dark One have some similar method of linking two souls/threads?

7) The rip in the Pattern Taim and Demandred created: could the Dark One have used that to escape or at least affect the world?

8) Will Rand's children with Aviendha still be "Weird" or has that been averted due to the changes to the Aiel's future.

9) Perrin can physically enter TAR at will, and uses this to great effect. So were the Wise Ones just being superstitious about entering in the flesh?

10) What led to Alanna being Moridin's captive, and why couldn't Rand sense her/her pain.

GonzoTheGreat
04-11-2014, 03:58 AM
1) Reading Ravens, it seems weird that Egwene was fascinated with Rand. Was this his being ta'veren in a small way (or the effects rippling back in time) was something else at play, or is nothing supernatural happening?I suspect that it was just a case of young love, which usually isn't supernatural.

4) Did Cadsuane release herself from the Oaths, or did she die an Aes Sedai?Cadsuane got bullied into becoming Amyrlin.

6) A dual Warder bond gives you access to each others' abilities, powers and thoughts. Does the Dark One have some similar method of linking two souls/threads?This could probably be duplicated using the Myrddraal-Trolloc link. Myrddraal are a peculiar type of Trolloc, so two Myrddraal could link with each other. What use that would be to anyone isn't clear to me, but if you want to, you can try to set up the experiment.

Weird Harold
04-11-2014, 05:42 AM
...so two Myrddraal could link with each other. What use that would be to anyone isn't clear to me, but if you want to, you can try to set up the experiment.

I think it will be a while before that experiment could be tried -- like most of a full turning before there will be more Shadowspawn to experiment with/on.

Weird Harold
04-11-2014, 05:49 AM
Aren't Grey Men exactly that?

Thnx to you also. :( Is there any other examples I've forgotten?

Slayer doesn't show any of the characteristics of Grey Men, though, does he? Nor does he exhibit any other symptoms of a lost soul.

Terez
04-11-2014, 05:49 AM
When have we ever seen a life thread that wasn't tied to the soul? Whatever you want to call it, Shivan appeared at Falme while Luc was otherwise occupied. Not even Heroes of the Horn can be in two places at once.
When Rand and Moridin were merged, before Rand's death, they could be in two places at once. They had two bodies, two minds (gradually becoming more alike each other), and two souls. They still have two souls, unless you think they are merged forever...the two minds thing is nuanced...and they only have one body. The incarnate body can only be in one place at one time, but the soul is different.

The only reason this theory appealed to me in the first place is because it explains how Slayer's powers work, how Perrin's powers work, how Rand's powers work, and even how the wolves' unique powers work, since they all exist in both worlds at once. In order for that aspect of the theory to work for Slayer, Luc has to be a dead hero whose soul resides in Tel'aran'rhiod. Why Luc rather than Isam? Because Luc is more believable as a hero, and in fact there is a hero who fits him perfectly.

You're missing the point that if one of them had to initiate the merger, then Isam was the one most likely to have the requisite knowledge.
You're missing the point that neither of them needed the knowledge, and Isam's dominance extends to the logic of who died and who didn't.

Plus a merger of threads seems like a desperation tactic; it doesn't seem like it would be a life's goal or dream job, but it does seem like the last resort of someone who was losing a fight.
Seems like a test run to me. RJ did say, again, that the powers were granted by the Dark One.

Terez
04-11-2014, 06:01 AM
"He became Isam." may not be very informative, but I think it's about the best we have on the subject.
Not quite. (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=212#5)

GonzoTheGreat
04-11-2014, 06:08 AM
Thnx to you also. :( Is there any other examples I've forgotten?
Some victims of Draghkar. First they suck the soul out, and only then they kill their victim. If they're disturbed halfway through, then you end up with a living but soulless body. And, depending on how you went about the disturbing, possibly a Draghkar corpse.

I wonder how long we can continue pulling up ever more examples you'd forgotten about.

Terez
04-11-2014, 06:09 AM
I do agree that Luc as Shivan is troubling. More, I have a vague memory of Birgette (when she was a Hero in TAR) commenting on Isam. Wouldn't she have shown some hint of knowing he's Shivan's latest life thread?
You could say she did:

"A good name for him. This Slayer is not old, archer, but his evil is ancient." She almost appeared to be leaning slightly on something invisible; perhaps that silver thing he had never quite seen. "I seem to be telling you a great deal. I do not understand why I spoke in the first place. Of course. Are you ta'veren, archer?"

Also, if anyone going to the Con is reading this, and is in a position to ask extra questions...
I have too long a list of my own questions!

By the way, I was sitting here making all these posts when Brandon & Co. showed up at the lobby to check in to the hotel. I talked to Peter but Brandon did not say hello, the jerk. I'm not Southpaw, I wouldn't have detained him. (They took a red-eye flight from Utah, up two time zones, and they were groggy.)

Southpaw2012
04-11-2014, 07:33 AM
Haha I have never "detained" him. I'm not even sure what questions I'll ask yet.. Or how I should ask them.

Dom
04-11-2014, 01:15 PM
It's not that the Nakomi/ Tigraine/ Callian link isn't compelling - it's that the other half of the theory of Luc/ Isam/ Shivan link isn't convincing to me (yet).

I'm not sure I'll convince anyone of anything, as my opinion on this is still fairly divided. I find the theories appealing to be sure, but I'm not convinced myself they are right.

a) we din't see Luc at Falme when the Horn was called the first time, we saw Shivan.

The people who saw him (Perrin among them) didn't note anything extraordinary when we know, for a fact, that anyone who has seen Slayer - in either form - has a remarkable similarity to Rand and to Lan.

Shivan was described only by Mat. Shivan and Calian were both masked. That in itself might explain the absence of any comparison from anyone present at Falme, and even Birgitte (though as Terez pointed out, Birgitte said a few things but kept others to herself about Slayer. She wouldn't be allowed to talk about other Heroes).

It's an interesting detail in itself that RJ chose to make this pair appear masked in their archetypal appearances. It's easy to suggest that Calian and Shivan either aren't what people think they are when they are alive or maybe that their nature and role as instruments/agents in Prophecies remains mostly hidden from humanity (Tigraine proclaiming "I am the Maiden and Chooser, here to choose my mate and give birth to the man who will decide to end this Age and maybe all Ages while my brother will be there in position at the end if the Dragon needs to be killed wouldn't exactly go well with the populace...), that they go under the radar, or appear under more than one identities, both of which would fit the profiles of Tigraine and Luc, public figures of Andor who actually both played an occult role none have fully put together, one as part of Slayer (occulted) and the other as Shaiel (largely occulted). Shaiel made the choice to follow Gitara's foretelling and chose a lover in Janduin and gave birth, in self-sacrifice, to humanity's "choice", incarnated in Rand, following prophecy. Tigraine's choices set in motion the "beginning of the end of the Age", the last 20 years of the cycle, while Luc played his part all the way to the very last minutes of the Age. Luc also hunted down Janduin (and killed him, preventing him from becoming a Red Veil - not sure it's relevant, but I point it out, and preventing him from pre-uniting part of the Aiel, maybe starting a war among the clans) and hunted down Rand to the Pit of Doom, bringing in his throes Lanfear who manipulated him and Perrin who hunted him with the wolves, who killed both the Slayer/Hunter and Moonhunter, preventing them from killing Rand who had made the right choice, in the very last moments of "the Third Age" and very first of the Fourth.

It works even better if Calian/Tigraine returns as Nakomi to encourage Rand's "death and rebirth". Tigraine's choices, and Luc's Hunt also set in motion events that lead to Elayne taking the throne of Andor down the line, while setting Elaida on her path to take the Amyrlin Seat, not to mention the foretelling about Tigraine/Luc guided Tar Valon (Gitara and Tamra)and the confirmation it had been partly fulfilled with Rand's birth is tied to Moiraine's mission. For Luc, there is then the Dark Prophecy, heralding his final role with Lanfear in AMOL.

None of that is of course fully conclusive, but Tigraine and Luc certainly could fit the names of "The Chooser" and "The Hunter", while as for their archetypes it's harder to tell because Jordan never gave us terribly good clues to define them, except they worked as "heralds", thus most likely forerunners of the end of the Age and the birth of the new (which makes it very unlikely they're Elayne's twins, born after the Age already started... no one would really be in the mood to deny the LB marked the start of a new Age... not that it would matter anyway since the Age itself has begun whether humans acknowledge it or not.. it was to mark the beginning of the end with Rand's birth that was important to key individuals.e), they are brother and sister (literally or not) and we might surmise they fulfill their mission one way or another covertly/masked, so maybe they're heralds that go mostly unnoticed, more like forerunners than horn sounders... It sounds to me like those two Heralds are basically like incarnated Prophecy, through which direct agency The Wheel acts to make the Age spiral directly to its end first (by bringing the rebirth of the Dragon through Calian, and setting Shivan on his Hunt), then the new one comes - and Slayer/Tigraine do fit this part (even more if Nakomi is truly Tigraine).

Shivan was in his TAR/ Hero Archetype appearance, meaning he wasn't inhabiting anyone - yet.

Which works just as well if you say "he wasn't inhabiting anyone anymore". Shivan is in TAR, and would be tied to Isam and thus through him would still have a role in the real world, but Luc is still dead.

We don't know enough how the Slayer combo works, but if we go with the hypothesis that Isam is alive and Luc is dead but the Dark One managed to tied them beyond death... it could explain where Slayer's "TAR characteristics" came from. Shivan's soul, since Luc's death, would belong in TAR, with the Hero's thread to the Wheel.

Let's say he has that. It's established that dead Heroes can leave TAR in the flesh for the real world: they do that after a fashion by the agency of the Horn about which we know not much. They don't seem normally alive, and are immune to the OP and presumably to other deaths.

But Birgitte could also do it through something Moghedien did - something which contrary to her belief did not cut her Hero bond to the Wheel, but to remain alive she had to be bonded to Elayne's life thread, and like Moridin/Rand and Luc/Isam, "dead" Brigitte and living Elayne began to feel each other's emotions and sensations... It might work loosely the same for Isam: he doesn't have Luc's memories or conscience, but he can feel what he feels etc. What if the DO found a way to do something similar to Shivan (and had started the process for Rand/Moridin), whose death might have taken place at SG, by tying him with a TP bond to Isam's life-thread, but also found a way to teach Slayer, or give him the power, to re-enter/exit TAR in the flesh as Wolfbrothers do. Exiting TAR in his Luc or Isam or possibly another appearance altogether (which I surmise might be quite possible) would be strictly a matter of will/concentration.

b) Slayer didn't abandon his battle with Perrin when the Horn was called in the Last battle, either.

We know very little about the Horn, but we know it doesn't work on Heroes who are presently alive (Rand wasn't pulled by it), in the world of the living. Birgitte died too soon, so we do not know if this is due to having a life-thread, or due to being out of TAR when the Horn calls. This could mean that the Horn might have been able to call Shivan to Falme only because Slayer was at the time in tel'aran'rhiod, but it might not not have worked on him if Slayer had been in the real world. We also don't know how conscious Luc would be of being Shivan, because of the DO's interference in all of this. Isam might have access only to Luc's "living" memories" or not at all to his memories. Isam might also not have been conscious at all of Luc being called by the Horn, caught in TAR and unaware what was happening during the process. Jordan always made sure to keep from us most of Luc's side of the story, never giving us his POV but always Isam's, and the fact Isam saw themselves as much as "one" and two quite separate entities, which different personalities. But what did Isam truly knew of Luc? Was he turned to the Shadow (he possibly had the genes...)? We'll never know.

We haven't seen Shivan called by the Horn at SG or Merrilor, which would work if the explanation is that he wasn't in TAR to be called, but we might have seen Calian as "Nakomi"...

Of course it could be that was because they were just tied to soon to be born babies, but that would be extremely lame mythologically speaking, because Callian and Shivan would have no agency that might evoke Shiva or Kali or be tied to ending/beginning of turnings of the Wheel, for the good reason playing that role two decades or more after the actual event is very late. It's also easier for me to imagine that Calian/Shivan were incarnated in the last days of the AOL as forerunners/agents of what was coming, which went unrecorded, than to imagine them appearing during the Breaking as some Preachers, telling people "Ladies and gents. the Age has ended, the new one has begun" (as if anyone needed that, or cared...).

My other thought, and this could come to nothing, is whether a Hero's soul could be corrupted in the manner it would need to be to be linked with Slayer. Woldn't that be a major coup for the Dark? Like balance-tipping big?

Jordan said this Third Age didn't differ from previous ones, so what if being tied to "Isam" in death, serving "Lanfear", being both the Hunter and Prey of Perrin and the wolves and dying at his hands during the confrontation of the Dragon with the DO is simply part of the normal "Pattern" of Shivan? The Dragon soul is also torn and darkened massively, and touched by the DO, as part of the normal process. It's part of its role. Why couldn't it be similar for other Heroes?

That's hardly Shiva like, but Kali has a much darker nature which Calian doesn't appear to have. It looks like RJ might have decided to make the male the "darker half"/destroyer in his version, which would be typical of the way he switched gender roles and twisted mythological elements around.

If I made the effort I could probably come up with a Shivan/Calian theory tying them to Elayne's twins, but I find that tying them to Tigraine/Luc is very attractive, and Nakomi as Calian makes it even more interesting (especially if her apparition at SG is RJ's and all Brandon did, coming upon something deep in the notes that told him who that mysterious woman at SG was, was to name her invent the other scene with her in the Waste). Obviously RJ left notes to keep the details about Slayer (especially Luc) untold, and he probably left notes not to confirm or deny that Elayne's twins are or not Shivan/Calian. That might explain why Brandon is so close-mouthed about Nakomi.

Mind you, part of me remains conviced Nakomi was Brandon's inclusion of one more unsolved mystery, based on something in the notes but that he added into the story by his own decision.

Weird Harold
04-11-2014, 03:35 PM
If I made the effort I could probably come up with a Shivan/Calian theory tying them to Elayne's twins, but I find that tying them to Tigraine/Luc is very attractive, and Nakomi as Calian makes it even more interesting...

The addition of Tigraine => Nakomi is an unnecessary complication to a theory that is over-complicated to begin with.

An interesting factoid I turned up looking for the exact wording of Calian and Shivan's role is that they aren't mentioned in TGH at Falme. In fact, the only mention of them by name is in Mat's falshback when he recognized Birgitte in aCOS.

So few, but all those the Wheel would spin out again and again to guide the Pattern, to make legend and myth. Mikel of the Pure Heart, and Shivan the Hunter behind his black mask. He was said to herald the end of Ages, the destruction of what had been and the birth of what was to be, he and his sister Calian, called the Chooser, who rode red-masked at his side. Amaresu, with the Sword of the Sun glowing in her hands, and Paedrig, the golden-tongued peacemaker, and there, carrying the silver bow with which she never missed...

Great Lord of the Dark
04-11-2014, 07:17 PM
Ha ha ha Weird Harold, I find instead it is the addition of Calian and Shivan that overcomplicates a simple Nakomi = Tigraine theory. All Tigraine had to do was live after Tam took her baby. And show up at the appointed time and place. After all, she still needs to have been free to visit Aviendha.

Weird Harold
04-11-2014, 08:49 PM
Ha ha ha Weird Harold, I find instead it is the addition of Calian and Shivan that overcomplicates a simple Nakomi = Tigraine theory.

That, too. :D

Terez
04-12-2014, 04:41 AM
I have been trying to transcribe today's Q&A, but there were a bunch of shitfaced people in the lobby all night, including one dude who was acting out scenes from AMOL at the top of his lungs. (Others were applauding him.) Hours later, the security guard and his roommate finally got him to go to bed, not before he had terrorized a few people, including taking off his shirt and offering to fight.

Anyway, the gist of Brandon's answers: RJ did write the woman in the coming-out-of-the-mountain scene. Brandon is not sure if he changed her physical description or not, but he says that if he did change anything about the scene, it would have been that. I'm not sure exactly what it means but perhaps a transcript will make it more clear. He says that the "deep in the notes" thing was Brandon digging in the notes to try to figure out who the woman in that scene was supposed to be. He didn't say "And then I decided to use her with Aviendha" but since he's said he pitched that whole Aviendha sequence, it would seem obvious that's what happened.

I also asked him how he could be sure that the powers Nakomi displayed with Aviendha weren't the same as Rand's new powers if he didn't know anything more about the pipe than the fans do. He said it's because he knows what Nakomi was doing and he's sure it can't be what Rand was doing. There's more to that answer, which I will type up eventually, but my impression was that (as we suspected) Aviendha was actually asleep, and Nakomi entered her dream. We don't know of any other Heroes doing that, but it would make the most sense with the options available.

Shivan is in TAR, and would be tied to Isam and thus through him would still have a role in the real world, but Luc is still dead.

We don't know enough how the Slayer combo works, but if we go with the hypothesis that Isam is alive and Luc is dead but the Dark One managed to tied them beyond death... it could explain where Slayer's "TAR characteristics" came from. Shivan's soul, since Luc's death, would belong in TAR, with the Hero's thread to the Wheel.

Let's say he has that. It's established that dead Heroes can leave TAR in the flesh for the real world: they do that after a fashion by the agency of the Horn about which we know not much. They don't seem normally alive, and are immune to the OP and presumably to other deaths.

But Birgitte could also do it through something Moghedien did - something which contrary to her belief did not cut her Hero bond to the Wheel, but to remain alive she had to be bonded to Elayne's life thread, and like Moridin/Rand and Luc/Isam, "dead" Brigitte and living Elayne began to feel each other's emotions and sensations... It might work loosely the same for Isam: he doesn't have Luc's memories or conscience, but he can feel what he feels etc. What if the DO found a way to do something similar to Shivan (and had started the process for Rand/Moridin), whose death might have taken place at SG, by tying him with a TP bond to Isam's life-thread, but also found a way to teach Slayer, or give him the power, to re-enter/exit TAR in the flesh as Wolfbrothers do. Exiting TAR in his Luc or Isam or possibly another appearance altogether (which I surmise might be quite possible) would be strictly a matter of will/concentration.
For the record, RJ said that Slayer's only choices are Luc and Isam, though that might only be because of his perception of the possible. RJ also said that the quirks of the Elayne-Birgitte bond were because of the gender pairing (and men are different, in a different way).

I had a bunch of other stuff to say about the above, but after the long night of drunk people, all I can say is that I agree with most of it, which is lame because you already knew that. Just saying, it wasn't my intention to just nitpick it. :p

Jordan said this Third Age didn't differ from previous ones...
Another nitpick...he said it differed in the details, but not in the overall structure, so that it looks like the same tapestry only from a distance. I think there is room in that for the merge being a new experiment.

Great Lord of the Dark
04-12-2014, 06:04 AM
Brandon's answers support that this was an intentional and important part of the ending, so I continue to think that Rand's Mother is the only correct person of meaning who fits, where the answer might be deep in the notes.

Nakomi and the woman at the end don't have to be the same character, but why have two mystery Aiel women when one will do.

Here's what my blog had to say about Aviendha and Nakomi's encounter:

Aviendha doesn’t tell anyone that she has traveled some distance from Rhuidean so that she can run the last stretch to get there. She meets an Aiel woman named Nakomi, who bizarrely appears as though from nowhere and vanishes just as mysteriously, after leaving Aviendha with some troubling thoughts to ponder. The manner of her abrupt departure despite Aviendha’s keen senses and tracking vaguely implies a greater purpose to her appearance, rather than a random encounter. Aviendha doesn’t dwell on her words much after, so the reader is left to wonder whether this was a dream, a time-disjointing hallucination brought on by burning brush, a visit from a more knowledgeable person such as another Wise One, a Forsaken, an Aes Sedai, or a future Aviendha, or worst of all, a divine intervention. I cross my fingers for random encounter, because Aviendha could have had these thoughts on her own with no need for mysterious old women.

Aviendha contemplates Rhuidean, the future of the Aiel, and both her and her people’s relationship with Rand. The offhand way in which she reflects on Nakomi’s words before reaching the exact same conclusions on her own reinforces that Nakomi was no one special, just a scene added to make Aviendha’s reflections on these matters seem more believable to readers.

Tollingtoy
04-13-2014, 07:54 AM
Another weird thought--if Nakomi is Tigraine/Calian and she represents the ending of an age, could it be true that Calian is ALWAYS the mother of the Dragon soul?

Rand al'Fain
04-13-2014, 03:37 PM
Another weird thought--if Nakomi is Tigraine/Calian and she represents the ending of an age, could it be true that Calian is ALWAYS the mother of the Dragon soul?

1 Hero of the Horn giving birth to another in order to herald a new age?

Sounds plausible.

GonzoTheGreat
04-14-2014, 03:09 AM
I sort of doubt that, as we've never heard anything at all about LTT's mother. If she had been as noticeable as Tigraine/Shaiel, she would have merited at least some kind of mention, one would think.

Dom
04-14-2014, 12:36 PM
I sort of doubt that, as we've never heard anything at all about LTT's mother. If she had been as noticeable as Tigraine/Shaiel, she would have merited at least some kind of mention, one would think.

Not necessarily, as we have heard precious few things about LTT's life and those who surrounded him, but the events marking the beginning of the end for each Age, to which we might try to associate Shivan or Calian, are probably different anyway. Rand's birth was such mostly because it could be related to the beginning of the fulfillment of the Karaethon Cycle.

In the AOL, a more obvious event to mark the beginning of the end for the Age would be the drilling of the Bore, not Lews Therin's birth.

fionwe1987
04-14-2014, 01:18 PM
I sort of doubt that, as we've never heard anything at all about LTT's mother. If she had been as noticeable as Tigraine/Shaiel, she would have merited at least some kind of mention, one would think.

Not necessarily. We know about Tigraine/Shaiel only through personal stories. Its not like she is generally well known. She's kind of a footnote in Andoran history.

GonzoTheGreat
04-15-2014, 03:27 AM
Not necessarily. We know about Tigraine/Shaiel only through personal stories. Its not like she is generally well known. She's kind of a footnote in Andoran history.
Just like the death of Franz Ferdinand was just a footnote in Austro-Hungarian history?
Besides, Tigraine's disappearance also sparked off the Cairhienin trouble, which led directly to the Aiel War.

So both in Andor and elsewhere did at least some people notice what had happened to her and what came of that.

In contrast, there is no indication at all of what choice LTT's mother could possibly have had to make that would have had similar effects. That doesn't mean it can't have happened, but I don't think we should assume it did simply because there is no evidence at all.

fionwe1987
04-15-2014, 09:33 PM
Just like the death of Franz Ferdinand was just a footnote in Austro-Hungarian history?
Besides, Tigraine's disappearance also sparked off the Cairhienin trouble, which led directly to the Aiel War.
That is an excellent comparison, actually. And just as most people don't think "Franz Ferdinand" when they think "World War I", I don't think most people will point to Tigraine when they think of the Aiel war. Dyelin did, but she knew these details intimately.

So both in Andor and elsewhere did at least some people notice what had happened to her and what came of that.
Sure. But will such details survive for 3000 years after many civilization spanning wars?

In contrast, there is no indication at all of what choice LTT's mother could possibly have had to make that would have had similar effects. That doesn't mean it can't have happened, but I don't think we should assume it did simply because there is no evidence at all.
But that's my point. Tigraine's actions are already a footnote 20 years after she disappeared. How about 3000 years later? Why would people remember?

Davian93
04-15-2014, 10:19 PM
That is an excellent comparison, actually. And just as most people don't think "Franz Ferdinand" when they think "World War I", I don't think most people will point to Tigraine when they think of the Aiel war. Dyelin did, but she knew these details intimately.

Funny, when you say "Franz Ferdinand" pretty much the only response for that word association you will EVER get is "World War One".

Just sayin'.

GonzoTheGreat
04-16-2014, 04:06 AM
But that's my point. Tigraine's actions are already a footnote 20 years after she disappeared. How about 3000 years later? Why would people remember?
Because she got a chapter of her own in Loial's book on the life of the Dragon. And (mind, this is a bit speculative right now) because the Sharans made her into their great national hero, seeing as they didn't have any better options.

fionwe1987
04-17-2014, 12:02 AM
Getting back to Nakomi, I think its instructive to understand a bit about Kali and Shiva to see how all this fits (I admit to being a full convert now to the Tigraine=Kalian, Luc=Shivan theory).

Kali is the destructive aspect of Parvati, who is the "supreme mother Goddess" in Hinduism. She's the mother of two gods: one, Muruga, is the god of War and the Commander of the armies of the gods. The other is Ganesh, which was, incidentally, the nickname of RJ in the Navy. Ganesh is the lord and remover of obstacles, and the god of beginnings.

Parvati creates Ganesh out of clay, in most myths, echoing the "virgin birth" theme that we see with Tigraine (the Maiden). She then asks him to stand guard while she bathes. Shiva, her husband, demands entry, and Ganesh refuses. Shiva then beheads him after an intense battle.

When Parvati learns of this, she threatens to destroy the entire universe (taking on her many destructive aspects, Kali being the foremost of those). To place her, Shiva looks about and notices an elephant that has survived her destructive rage, and uses its head to revive Ganesh, thus giving him his iconic elephant head.

Note the inversions here. Rand is guarding the world from the Dark One. Shivan/Slayer is trying to kill him to allow the Dark One entry.

Kalian/Nakomi (which means grandmother, incidentally) only comes in at the end to tell her son how to survive, which is achieved by him merging with Moridin (who is not an elephant, of course...). Ganesh, incidentally, has three wives in some Hindu traditions.

As for Shiva, there's one story that has some bearing here. In the Mahabharatha, one of the main characters, Arjuna (an archer, like Rand), meditates on Shiva so he can obtain Shiva's weapon/missile. To test Arjuna, Shiva comes disguised as a hunter, and challenges Arjuna to a hunting contest, which Arjuna loses.

So there's definitely a hunter motif connected to Shiva, too. He's also depicted wearing a crescent moon on his hair, and is associated with the moon.

I don't know how much of Hindu mythology RJ knew (and there's quite a bit of conflicting stuff I left out for brevity), but I think its a fair bet he knew some of this, at least. He certainly knew of Ganesh, so it isn't a stretch that he read up on his parents.

suttree
04-21-2014, 11:33 PM
Funny, when you say "Franz Ferdinand" pretty much the only response for that word association you will EVER get is "World War One".

Just sayin'.

Dunno..."Take Me Out" might be up there.

Seeker
04-22-2014, 11:17 AM
No no no, Suttree.

This is the song that comes to mind. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgR5CaV12PM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

suttree
04-22-2014, 12:48 PM
No no no, Suttree.

This is the song that comes to mind. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgR5CaV12PM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Nice one.