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View Full Version : Propheciesand Viewings in AMoL (Spoilers)


Edynol
01-08-2013, 11:07 AM
This is to discuss the prophecies and viewings and how they were or were not fulfilled. Was going to discuss this on DM, but that place is all jacked up and can't reply. XD lol.

What I wanna know is what prophs/viewings turned out to be. Like the Onyx hand on Callandor and seizing all that he is, for example. Was that meant as a warning to Rand for the body switch or was it meant as trouble for Moridin in that Rand could seize all that he was? Just for one example.

Discuss. :)

Almen Bundt Cake
01-08-2013, 02:51 PM
We never did get three on a boat, did we?

Davian93
01-08-2013, 03:00 PM
We never did get three on a boat, did we?

Doesnt seem like it...at least not a literal boat.

Tedman
01-08-2013, 03:10 PM
The Wheel not done with prophecies, and the prophecies not yet done with the Wheel?

Terez
01-08-2013, 08:32 PM
Doesnt seem like it...at least not a literal boat.
The metaphorical boat is a stretch, too...

Davian93
01-09-2013, 07:41 AM
The metaphorical boat is a stretch, too...

I completely agree....its a Stretch Armstrong level of stretch.

Dom
01-09-2013, 09:02 AM
What I sort of like a lot about the Three in a Boat foretelling is that now it's played out (in a way) - and as disappointing as it was - it still plays on the aura of the ambiguity of Nicola's character. It's to add to the list of "dangerous knowledge" she either discovered, foretold, tried to use to her benefit etc. Not only Nicola died, but the woman who heard that Foretelling also died - preserving the secret. A bit like happened to Gitara in the end, dying with secrets.

That's an interesting subtlety Jordan included.

That doesn't make the metaphorical resolution any cooler, but...

Terez
01-09-2013, 09:13 AM
Well, Nynaeve and Elayne also heard it...

Dom
01-09-2013, 09:57 AM
Well, Nynaeve and Elayne also heard it...

And it probably should have been more obvious Nynaeve puzzled it out by the end.

It's one thing I didn't like all that much about it, that Nynaeve was left in the dark. Way to pay her back for her unflinching loyalty and dedication to leave her with the impression she failed to save Rand.

But it's fitting in a way.. echoing how she was left behind and raced to find them in EOTW. But a scene where Nynaeve learns, and this time she has to let go, accept to let go would have been a nice fitting last scene for her, echoing her very nice "Golden Crane" moments in KOD.

klye
01-09-2013, 10:06 AM
Nope. I can think of three satifying ways that that prophecy was completed. 1) possibly being with him romantically -cue Barry white music. 2) saying they will bond him or 3) saying they will each separately take turns providing emotional support as rand sank into rage maddness. They did all bond him after all. And when this prophecy came about is right about the time rand really started to lose it

You assume that exact sentence in that prophecy is about the last battle or after. It doesn't need to be. In fact only one part of the prophecy implies any connection to the last battle.

Davian93
01-09-2013, 10:06 AM
But it's fitting in a way.. echoing how she was left behind and raced to find them in EOTW. But a scene where Nynaeve learns, and this time she has to let go, accept to let go would have been a nice fitting last scene for her, echoing her very nice "Golden Crane" moments in KOD.


Swapping out Cadsuane with Nynaeve would have made much more sense.

Terez
01-09-2013, 10:14 AM
Nope. I can think of three satifying ways that that prophecy was completed. 1) possibly being with him romantically -cue Barry white music. 2) saying they will bond him or 3) saying they will each separately take turns ying providing motional support as rand sank into rage maddness. They did all bond him after all. And when this prophecy came about is right about the time rand really started to lose it

You assume that exact sentence in that prophecy is about the last battle or after. It doesn't need to be. In fact only one part of the prophecy implies any connection to the last battle.
If that works for you, then great. I still say it's a lame cop-out, and unless you (or someone else) can come up with a better explanation than that, I always will.

Karistina
01-09-2013, 10:18 AM
I think the whole point of Rand's "The Dark One is not the enemy" realization is that it's the removal of choice, of free will, that was really what was at stake. The prophecies themselves drove so many people to inevitability without giving them a say in the matter... Any prophecy that wasn't fulfilled by the end of the book no longer has to be.

I wonder how this will affect Min's visions...

klye
01-09-2013, 10:25 AM
Or maybe it refers to the one one one time he had with each in MOL . I wonder if during some important moment each put a hand on him? Time for a re read.

But if you insist that it refer to a moment they were all together... then the last scene must be it.

Dom
01-09-2013, 10:59 AM
I think the whole point of Rand's "The Dark One is not the enemy" realization is that it's the removal of choice, of free will, that was really what was at stake. The prophecies themselves drove so many people to inevitability without giving them a say in the matter... Any prophecy that wasn't fulfilled by the end of the book no longer has to be.

I wonder how this will affect Min's visions...

I don't agree with this interpretation.

It was far more about getting rid of the perception the Pattern leaves no choice. The ta'veren were put on a path where they had to make important choices. RJ had been clear enough in Q&A: those who thought the Pattern equaled lack of free will and entropy had it wrong. He wasn't willing to explain it more, for reasons more obvious. It's the perception of the Pattern the Shadow was desperate to see the Light embrace, because that meant wanting to live in one or the other of the Shadow's versions of the Pattern. It's the perception of the Pattern as a prison for souls defended by Ishamael - a version in which humans live totally unaware of any of the cosmology, a perception Rand already refused during his epiphany. The side that is truly about lack of free will is the Shadow, not the Creator's. Shai'tan was that "old testament god" controlling everything - the Creator leaves Creation to its own devices, within the Pattern. The creation of the Bore is the cyclical opportunity for humanity through the Dragon to make the choice between the two deities.

The Pattern remains the Pattern by the end. It seems inevitable that with Shai'tan unable to touch it anymore, the whole concept of predestination will fade to an extent, but it will still exists.. ta'veren, dreams, foretellings, Min's visions etc. it's just the weight people put on them that's likely to decrease.

Dom
01-09-2013, 11:03 AM
But if you insist that it refer to a moment they were all together... then the last scene must be it.

It's the last scenes, but it's a metaphor and not terribly well executed to work.

Even Brandon was a bit baffled with that prophecy. RJ might have put a literal boat, made an underground river surface in the valley etc. to support the metaphor. But apparently he left no notes on this prophecy and Brandon went with his own instincts, decided to make it strictly metaphorical.